I went TT shopping

[blackraven]

I went TT shopping yesterday at the Needle Doctor here in Minneapolis yesterday. I looked at the MH MMF 7.1, MMF 5.1, Pro ject 5.1se, the new Rega RP-3, Clear Audio Concept and some lesser Pro-ject, Music Hall and Rega TT's. I am probably eventually going to buy the MMF 7.1 or MMF5.1se. I really like the Pro-ject 5.1se but they have no dust covers and with 2 dogs a cover is a must. I did not get to listen to them but based on bulid quality, features and reviews by the sales staff the MMF's may be the best fit. They really like the warmer sound of the Rega TT's but the MMF's have better isolation which is a must for my wood floors. The MMF's also have better detail and resolution. With proper preamp and cartridge matching I can get that warmer sound with the MMF's. They really like the pro-ject tube box IIse and the tube box II. For a cartridge, I am considering the Clear Audio Maestro and Virtuoso. They also recommended the Ortofon Rondo Red MC.

They were also pushing the out going Rega P5 which is closing out for $1K. I would be interested in it but it is so damn fugly. I have enough fugly gear with my retro AVA gear.

For any one interested in buying an entry level TT like the Rega P-1, skip it. It is pretty cheaply built. The platter is plastic and light weight, the sub platter is cheap as well. Go with the Pro-ject RPM 1.3 or the Music Hall MMF 2.2, both of which are much more solidly built with much heavier platters and sub platters. The Pro-ject is a lot of TT for the money with an isolated motor.

I also got to hear these $7K Mordaunt Short speakers and was not impressed in the least. There was no body or warmth to the midrange at all. They were not even in the same league as my Magnepan's.

Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 Floorstanding Speakers (http://www.needledoctor.com/Mordaunt-Short-Performance-6-Floorstanding-Speakers?sc=2&category=15302)

[02audionoob]

From what I'm seeing, people are generally more impressed with the RP1 than the MMF-2.2 or the Debut III. If I were in the market at that price range, I'd most likely go with the Rega...and that's coming from someone who actually owns a Debut III.

As for the Music Hall vs. Rega comparison...How do you come by the position that the Music Hall turntables have more detail and resolution? I owned a MMF-5 and currently have a P5 and I can tell you it ain't so. The MMF-5 sounded fatter and warmer than the P5 and has audible flutter. Are you getting all this information from the Needle Doctor guys? It all sounds backward to me.

Also...having owned a MMF-5, I didn't see a difference in isolation from my Rega when it comes to things related to my wood floors. The split plinth should help isolate the motor, but the floor is pretty much a different animal.

[blackraven]

Noob, I didnt actually listen to the TT's and I'm not dissing the Rega's (well maybe the P-1). I am just telling you what the guys over at the Needle Dr said after talking with them for about 45 min. As for the Rega P1, it was cheaply built in comparison and the salesman even said you get more for your money with the other TT's in its class. You cant even place a heavier platter on the P-1 because you will decrease life of the motor. And you can't compare an MMF 5.1 to a P5 which cost much more (about $600) than the MMF5. (They liked the warmer sound of the RP3 and P5 over the MMF5.1se, MM7.1. They said the M7 and Clear Audio Concept were more airy and detailed). The P5 should sound better and is better. I'm not dissing the Rega TT's. In fact they highly recommended the new RP3 and P5 TT's. I went there to take a look at the new RP-3 TT which I am still considering buying. Comparing different TT's is like comparing apples to oranges. There are so many variables to take into consideration such as the type of cartridge, phono preamp, set up, etc. To me, comparing TT's is like trying to compare different speakers.

Peace!

[02audionoob]

I realize it isn't a fair fight when you're comparing turntables with a big price difference, but from what I have heard from Pro-Ject, Music Hall and Rega, they're telling you wrong on the characteristics. To a Rega fan, a Music Hall or Pro-Ject can sound sluggish and muddy. To a Pro-Ject and Music Hall fan, a Rega can sound lean and analytical. They're all nice, but they have identifiable differences that are relatively consistent. I'm not claiming Rega is better or that you're dissing it. I'm just saying I think what they told you is flawed.

As for the RP1's platter...I'd rather have that than the steel platter on my Debut III, so it wouldn't ring and moving-coil cartridges wouldn't stick to it.

[blackraven]

The PR-1's platter is flimsy and the platter on the Pro-Ject RPM1.3 is high density low resonance fiber board and it has a decoupled motor to boot. Now I can't comment on the sound of the TT's as I did not hear them. But it all boils down to what cartridge and preamp you use.

[02audionoob]

I don't buy the comment that it all boils down to other items. The turntable and tonearm matter. They greatly influence how well the cartridge can do its job. Look at what Tone Audio had to say about the "plastic" platter.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6222/6316786093_ec0b6a225e_z.jpg

That's my last comment. I'll read, but no more replies.

[blackraven]

Jeeze Noob, don't get so hot. I was only stating what I saw and was told at the store. I may have been a little hasty in saying it all boils down to the phono preamp and cartridge but they do make a huge difference and you have to take that into account. Especially when comparing TT's and giving them an audition. All the parts in the chain have to have synergy. And we all have our preferences and different amps, speakers, etc., thats why there are so many choices. And as far as the P-1 goes, the guys at the shop pointed out the cheap platter and sub platter and that there were better choices in that price range. And when I see a flimsy plastic platter and a cheap looking sub platter, I think cost savings which usually is not good in the HiFi world. Well looks ain't every thing, the P-1 may blow the other TT's away in sound for what little I know and it ain't much. I'm just learning about TT's, I have a lot of research to do and a lot of listening to TT's and music to do.

Cheers!

[frenchmon]

Let me chime in here. I've listened to quite a few tables in the last year and I can tell you, I've listen to the Rega P-3, P-5, P-7, MMF-2.1, MMF-5.1, MMF-7.1 Technics SQ-3 (?) , VPI hw 19 mk III, Marantz TT-15S1 and a few others in between. I can also tell you, I heard audio hobbyist diss all of them as much as they praised all of them. As far as I am concerned , I can tell you....Raven you are absolutely correct. A record player sounds best when its set up properly and matched with the right gear.

Having said that..I've listen to the Rega P3- and my own more than any of them. I know they are not the same class tables but the Rega P-3 sound seems uninspiring to my ears. It could have been the system or setup or both. The other Rega's did sound different from my 7.1...I don't think they where as musical. And I've heard the Rega P-3 more than a few times. The P-7 is not the most attractive TT with that weird looking platter. It was driving a very expensive Germany tube integrated whos name escapes me at the moment. It was driving some Dynaudio C-1 speakers. Sounded ok, but it was not as airy as I would have liked.

I am really loving my MMF-7.1. The Isolation is outstanding. I hear nothing whatsoever other than the music. But I must add that I have it in a room with concrete floors. I have noticed the sound changes slightly with the change of mats. I have a more than subtle change when I changed phono cables. Of course the sound changed again when I went from a SS to a tubed preamp...a sound to die for....and I know it will change again when I get another phono amp. I know my cheap cart is really holding my 7.1 back, and with the added phono amp and new cart, a 2M Black or Grado Reference Sonata, the 7.1 will be all that. The sound is not lean...not muddy, not sluggish at all, cant hear any w&f...even with the cheap 2M Red the sound is full, wide, very good pace, nice decay and a nice full bottom end. And the thing is really fluid and very musical. There are many times im just sitting and listening and just caught up in what I am hearing, and then after a while I come back to my self and just glance over at the 7.1 and just smile at how musical the sound is and how smooth and fluid it is

. Are there better tables? Sure there are....and Raven you may listen to the 7.1 and not like it at all....but I doubt it. But I love it. Some people diss it because of Roy Hall, some people dont like it because its not American, some people dont like it because for the price they can get a more popular named audiophile table so they can keep up with the Jones...But I can tell ya....I like it for the great sound thats coming out of my speakers. The 7.1 is a great table.

[frenchmon]

Noob, I didnt actually listen to the TT's and I'm not dissing the Rega's (well maybe the P-1). I am just telling you what the guys over at the Needle Dr said after talking with them for about 45 min. As for the Rega P1, it was cheaply built in comparison and the salesman even said you get more for your money with the other TT's in its class. You cant even place a heavier platter on the P-1 because you will decrease life of the motor. And you can't compare an MMF 5.1 to a P5 which cost much more (about $600) than the MMF5. (They liked the warmer sound of the RP3 and P5 over the MMF5.1se, MM7.1. They said the M7 and Clear Audio Concept were more airy and detailed). The P5 should sound better and is better. I'm not dissing the Rega TT's. In fact they highly recommended the new RP3 and P5 TT's. I went there to take a look at the new RP-3 TT which I am still considering buying. Comparing different TT's is like comparing apples to oranges. There are so many variables to take into consideration such as the type of cartridge, phono preamp, set up, etc. To me, comparing TT's is like trying to compare different speakers.

Peace!

Raven did they have any record players set up to listen too? Also. from my experience in TT and audio gear in general....especially speakers, its best if you can get them to let you listen for a while in your own home with your own gear. Also...I thought my 7.1 really sounded good with all SS gear. But when I went with a tube preamp and ss amp (hybrids) it brought tears to my eyes. Keep in mind, Vincent is not syrupy sweet tubed gear, but a more lively tube sound...and the 7.1 with its air fit the bill perfectly.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, they had the MMF-9 and the new Rega P-3 set up and a few other TT's out of my price range. They had quite a bit of TT's on display but not hooked up. I didn't have time to really listen to any TT's. I am going to go back and spend some time there. I really like the design of the double and triple plinths of the Music Halls along with the uncoupled motors. The Pro-Jects are nice to because they are compact.
I have a hard time believing that any of the TT's- Rega, Pro-Ject or MH sound bad. They all have gotten pretty good reviews and prices are very similar in their classes that they all sell well. The salesman stated that the MH's are heavier and have vibration absorbing feet on the bottom and that they may be a slightly better choice for my hardwood floors. The Rega P-3 weight just 14lbs and the MH 5.1se and MMF7.1 weighs in at 24lbs so there is quite a bit of difference for stabiltiy. Which ever table I go with I will eventually get a speed controller and PSU.

I eventually may go the used route and range.look for a MMF5.1, P-3 or an older Rega. I recently missed out on a Rega P-25 for $700 here locally. I would like to pair it with the Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II phono preamp but I would like to listen to the PS Audio GCPH preamp.

Frenchmon , I'm glad you like the Vincent amp. I wish I had gone for a Hybrid amp. I would like to sell my Parasound and buy the new AVA 400R or even take a listen to one of the Vincent amps as the AVA amp is getting a little out of my price. Tubes are the way to go!

[02audionoob]

I'm going to break my above promise and go ahead and reply. I just can't help myself. First...the weight quoted for the Music Hall MMF-5.1 at 24 pounds includes the packing materials. Second...the whole idea behind Rega's design concept is low mass. They even go so far as to CNC-machine the plinth of the higher models into a skeletal form to make it lighter before it is sandwiched between the phenolic surface sheets. The light weight and rigidity is their way of dissipating vibration. I'm not commenting on whether it works or how well, but if a Rega dealer is criticizing a Rega turntable for its light weight, they seem like a pretty odd Rega dealer to me. This is from Stereophile:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6098/6323320152_9c89bb64b4_z.jpg

Please don't get me wrong on this...I like Music Hall turntables. I even plan to get another one some day. But I disagree with the information presented in this thread.

[blackraven]

Noob you could be right. The salesman may have been feeding me fodder. I am just presenting what I was told. And they didnt talk down about the Rega P-3 and P-5's that I was looking at. They thought that they would give me the sound that I was looking for. As for which TT would give better isolation, I have no idea which would be better. I have always heard that heavier is better but I am certainly not up to speed on TT technology. I will be hitting a couple of other high end stores here in town and see what they have to say. I will also check out the other Needle Dr store in town and see what they have to say.

[frenchmon]

Noob you could be right. The salesman may have been feeding me fodder. I am just presenting what I was told. And they didnt talk down about the Rega P-3 and P-5's that I was looking at. They thought that they would give me the sound that I was looking for. As for which TT would give better isolation, I have no idea which would be better. I have always heard that heavier is better but I am certainly not up to speed on TT technology. I will be hitting a couple of other high end stores here in town and see what they have to say. I will also check out the other Needle Dr store in town and see what they have to say.


Dog man!!! You have two Needle doctors in town???? You lucky dog.

[dean_martin]

I feel like a stranger in a foreign land reading about someone popping into a store and seeing turntables on display.

[JohnMichael]

I would love to have an audio store in 40 miles that would display and demo various turntables. I was going to comment on Rega ttables but mine has not been a true Rega for years. It has now been a few years since I have heard a stock Rega and even longer since I last heard my Project sourced Thorens. I will say the Rega Planar 2 has been incredibly dependable and easy to set and forget.

[blackraven]

The vinyl scene here in the Twin Cities is huge with Cheapo Records and the Electric Fetus devoting huge area's to vinl. Cheapo has a whole floor dedicated the LP's. The two high end Audio stores here (Audio Perfection and HiFi Sound) have always had multiple high end TT's on display.

By the way, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a Rega vs MH and Pro-ject discussion. It was just meant for me to tell what I had seen and heard at one of the Needle Doctors in town.

[JohnMichael]

The vinyl scene here in the Twin Cities is huge with Cheapo Records and the Electric Fetus devoting huge area's to vinl. Cheapo has a whole floor dedicated the LP's. The two high end Audio stores here (Audio Perfection and HiFi Sound) have always had multiple high end TT's on display.

By the way, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a Rega vs MH and Pro-ject discussion. It was just meant for me to tell what I had seen and heard at one of the Needle Doctors in town.



I appreciate your experiences because I do not have the time to find a shop to audition ttables. I think Rega and MH/Project are two of the better affordable turntable lines and both very popular. I think that is why they are often compared.

[RGA]

My only advice here is to not skimp. IME it takes a largish outlay of cash to really do vinyl justice - it's unfortunate but I have simply not been wowed by any cheap turntable.

I have heard the Rega P2 and P3 over the years. I owned a NAD 533 which is a Rega P2 made by Rega for NAD. I had the very popular very well reviewed Shure M97xE cartridge. It was all very bland sounding. I preferred a cheaper ProJect turntable but I heard it several months after I bought the NAD.

I would try and hear a suspended deck like the Linn LP 12 or Audio Note TT1 (a turbo charged Systemdeck IIX).

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/what_hifi_awards_2003_an_tt1.pdf

Joe Audiophile Turntables And Bandwidth Article By Scott Faller (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm)

What I find you get here is considerably better dynamics and timing and a freer more open presentation.

Systemdeks can be had fairly cheaply on the used market - the advantage here is that unlike most old units you can still get parts and or upgrade them since another company has picked them up and made them better. A Systemdeck could be around the $250 range. The trouble with the Audio Note decks - is A) finding them and B) the wait time. I had to wait 10 and a 1/2 months for my TT2.

[blackraven]

My plan is to try and buy a used Phono Tube Box IISE and possibly a Clear Audio Virtuoso cartridge and either the new Rega P-3, MMF7.1, MMF5.1se or just the 5.1 depending upon funds and system matching. I would love to buy a higher end TT but I think I will have to make a sacrifice in some part of the system chain. Having to pay for 2 college tuitions and with me retiring from the emergency department after 25yrs and taking a much lesser paying job in an urgent care, money is tight. So now I'm looking at the most bang for the buck. Who knows, I could end up with something totally different depending upon how things sound.

[frenchmon]

My only advice here is to not skimp. IME it takes a largish outlay of cash to really do vinyl justice - it's unfortunate but I have simply not been wowed by any cheap turntable.

I have heard the Rega P2 and P3 over the years. I owned a NAD 533 which is a Rega P2 made by Rega for NAD. I had the very popular very well reviewed Shure M97xE cartridge. It was all very bland sounding. I preferred a cheaper ProJect turntable but I heard it several months after I bought the NAD.

I would try and hear a suspended deck like the Linn LP 12 or Audio Note TT1 (a turbo charged Systemdeck IIX).

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/what_hifi_awards_2003_an_tt1.pdf

Joe Audiophile Turntables And Bandwidth Article By Scott Faller (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm)

What I find you get here is considerably better dynamics and timing and a freer more open presentation.

Systemdeks can be had fairly cheaply on the used market - the advantage here is that unlike most old units you can still get parts and or upgrade them since another company has picked them up and made them better. A Systemdeck could be around the $250 range. The trouble with the Audio Note decks - is A) finding them and B) the wait time. I had to wait 10 and a 1/2 months for my TT2.


Oh brother...are you saying that an old record player will clobber a new modern record player?

[frenchmon]

Dont know what your Van Alstine Ultra Hybrid Tube Preamp is like...if its syrupy or more lively like at ARC or Vincent, but if its like the later two then I know either the Rega, MH/Pro-Jects will be just fine...at least that been my experience...You might want to even consider the Marantz or Clearaudio record players as well.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, the AVA preamp is very lively and musical with great dynamics. It leans slightly to the warmer side but has a full midrange, great air and transparency with excellent high frequency extension and detail depending upon what tubes I use in it and the Hybrid AVA DAC. I would not call it syrupy. I can easliy change the sound to neutral to bright with much more air, transparency and dynamics by installing a pair of new Electro-Harmonix tubes in either the Preamp or DAC. I don't use the EH's because they can be a little sibilant at times. But that may change since I just purchased a pair of warm sounding Raytheon Black plates and Tung Sol Black plates to try and pair with the EH's.

[02audionoob]

Maybe one of the reasons why people like direct drive is because they have heard entry level belt drive tables and just prefer not to deal with speed variations. I have a 2.2 and the motor speed is noticeably off. I tried implementing a speed box and it didn't like it. I heard the same motor is in the 5.1, which leads me toward getting the 7 or 7.1 in the MH line as a logical starting point for properly rated motors of acceptable design.

There should be no variations in speed large enough to be noticeable in modern tables costing 500.00. The fact that a stereophile reviewer noticed better sound when implementing a speed box on a cheap table may lead some people to buy speed boxes. It has led me to take my table out of service. Shame on them. I am thinking decent direct drive for a table under 1K

You could find that decent direct drive turntable for under $100 on Craigslist and easily outperform any modern belt-drive turntable under $1k and some that are over $1k.

[daviethek]

Maybe one of the reasons why people like direct drive is because they have heard entry level belt drive tables and just prefer not to deal with speed variations. I have a 2.2 and the motor speed is noticeably off. I tried implementing a speed box and it didn't like it. I heard the same motor is in the 5.1, which leads me toward getting the 7 or 7.1 in the MH line as a logical starting point for properly rated motors of acceptable design.

There should be no variations in speed large enough to be noticeable in modern tables costing 500.00. The fact that a stereophile reviewer noticed better sound when implementing a speed box on a cheap table may lead some people to buy speed boxes. It has led me to take my table out of service. Shame on them. I am thinking decent direct drive for a table under 1K

[RGA]

Oh brother...are you saying that an old record player will clobber a new modern record player?

What exactly does age have to do with anything - a 20 year old Voyd Reference 3a is still considered one of the handful best decks built and yes better than anything I have heard from Clearaudio, rega and ProJect. - And it's one reason you will pay many times the original price for a Voyd on the used market.

The SystemDek tables have had pretty significant changes made to it by Audio Note - a new motor, platter, wiring etc. A used Systemdek at least has these upgrade option available to it. Many older decks from Thorens for example - do not.

It comes down to design - a suspended platter design is different than non suspended platter designs - and done right it's tough going to the non suspended types. The TT1 is the best table I have heard in the price range - around $1700 with arm and cartridge. It is easily better than the Clearaudio Emotion the dealer had set-up. Buying used has some issues - the condition of the thing for a start. And the systemdek isn't as good but it will be in the ballpark and will only run $300-$400.

I think it's important to judge it after you've actually heard it. The TT1 is better than it looks. Looks is a difficult thing to pass up I suppose.

[frenchmon]

Maybe one of the reasons why people like direct drive is because they have heard entry level belt drive tables and just prefer not to deal with speed variations. I have a 2.2 and the motor speed is noticeably off. I tried implementing a speed box and it didn't like it. I heard the same motor is in the 5.1, which leads me toward getting the 7 or 7.1 in the MH line as a logical starting point for properly rated motors of acceptable design.

There should be no variations in speed large enough to be noticeable in modern tables costing 500.00. The fact that a stereophile reviewer noticed better sound when implementing a speed box on a cheap table may lead some people to buy speed boxes. It has led me to take my table out of service. Shame on them. I am thinking decent direct drive for a table under 1K


I have a demo unit from Music-direct, a Music Hall 2.1 like new, and it never had speed problems. Proper set up, leveled , and it was great....I ran it for a year almost every day, and never had a problem out of it.

[frenchmon]

What exactly does age have to do with anything - a 20 year old Voyd Reference 3a is still considered one of the handful best decks built and yes better than anything I have heard from Clearaudio, rega and ProJect. - And it's one reason you will pay many times the original price for a Voyd on the used market.

The SystemDek tables have had pretty significant changes made to it by Audio Note - a new motor, platter, wiring etc. A used Systemdek at least has these upgrade option available to it. Many older decks from Thorens for example - do not.

It comes down to design - a suspended platter design is different than non suspended platter designs - and done right it's tough going to the non suspended types. The TT1 is the best table I have heard in the price range - around $1700 with arm and cartridge. It is easily better than the Clearaudio Emotion the dealer had set-up. Buying used has some issues - the condition of the thing for a start. And the systemdek isn't as good but it will be in the ballpark and will only run $300-$400.

I think it's important to judge it after you've actually heard it. The TT1 is better than it looks. Looks is a difficult thing to pass up I suppose.


Ok...thats fine RGA, I thought you where of that crowd of people who are always talking about go and get an old Technics off Craigslist or from the GW put a good needle on it, and it will sound just as good if not better than these modern record players. I tried that with an old Technics, and with the same needle's my MH 2.1 ate the Technics for lunch.

[poppachubby]

Guess I will chime in...

Raven I think you should expand your research and look hard at the used market. That P25 you mentioned is a great example of what can be had for significantly less cash. I will put in another vote for the "old" suspended decks, they are hard to beat for fidelity and can be had for a song. Generally, some obsessive audiophile has already outfitted the deck with a proper arm/cart which also helps your cause. Aside from this, keep an eye out for the old Oracle Alexandria and/or Paris. These decks can mop up the floor with certain newer offerings, and at a price of course.

I have a couple shops in town and have sat in front of all the usual suspects. BTW, the Project with the S arm is a huge dissapointment sound wise. I was really excited to hear it as it's design is clearly stellar, but the sound was so bland and unengaging. I would suggest a few more bucks for an Xpression.

You must understand that companies like Rega and Linn have long been about sound and tend to defy "logic" when it comes to build. In short, they must be heard to be understood.

The other thing I would say is that the GCPH is a wildly awesome phono stage. I think a guy like you should consider the offerings from Bottlehead. I have heard the Project stages and while good, there is much competition to be heard in each price range.

I hope this helps, taking the time to really research will hopefully help to save you some cash and land you the front end you are looking for.

[Feanor]

I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.

[poppachubby]

I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.


...said the classical fan.

[02audionoob]

I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.

This thread is about you?

[hifitommy]

"it takes a largish outlay of cash to really do vinyl justice"

NOT so. a modest outlay will reveal the superiority of LP over RBCD! a thousand or less will truly humble cd. audiogon is crawling with fine values and likewise the audioasylum.com (http://audioasylum.com/)'s classifieds. add to that the economy of buying used LPs and cost becomes a major attraction along with the inherent verisimilitude of vinyl playback.

the low end of the clearaudio line seems like bargain territory to me but a used table of the DD type or belt drive will do for starters and will contain enough of the real deal to addict one to vinyl. once you have the taste, you will know where the budget will take you. upgrades can be incremental financially and yet a big step sonically.

i dont think we should discourage beginners by putting a financial wall in their way.

direct drive isnt the panacea some think in terms of speed stability. and most dont have great isolation from vibration but then thats something we learn to deal with. really great DDs tend to be expensive such as the goldmund. i have both belt and dd tables and each have their advantages.

[RGA]

hifitommy

You may be correct but I will have to disagree based on my personal experience - of course different tables may elicit different results.

Skeptical of vinyl - having grown up on CD - I listened to the "a modest turntable will kill all CD replay" argument. So I bought a fixed up Dual (one of the better regarded models) and and audio technica cartridge - the sound was terrible.

So I elected to go with the famous Rega P2 (NAD 533) with stock cartridge - the sound was terrible. Replaced the cart with the famous budget M97xE Shure cartridge. The sound dramatically improved to the point that occasionally I would hear glimpses of the vinyl is better than CD offering. Sometimes it was so but sometimes it wasn't. And this only against a modest Cambridge Audio CD 6. I tried several turntables in the $1k - $2k range from Clearuadio, Rega, Roksan, Technics, Pro-Ject, Linn, Audio Note, and Oracle. Only the Linn and Audio Note were major steps up over the likes of the NAD/Rega 2 I suspect due to the nature of the suspended subchassis and the generally superior cartridges. But neither is exactly budget. The AN TT1 coming in at about $1100US without cartridge. And this is only this cheap because the dealer bought the entire world stock of silver plinths that doesn't look too attractive.

Granted my reference of CD replay is Audio Note digital which is designed 100% by analog guys and it's a cut above (well above) everyone else) fanboy or not - vinyl people all say the same thing. Guy Adams of Voyd and Michael Kerster of Parts Express (previously of Sonic Frontoiers) helped design it.

Having said that - in general it takes considerably more money for AN digital to beat a good turntable - and even the AN fanboys admit that a decked out TT2 with their MC carts and step ups will beat a 10 times the price Dac 5.

I do agree with your opinion I simply don't agree with you on where the starting line is - to me the point of entry is something like a TT1 IQ3 and Arm 2 - and that will run around $1600 - $2,000. It's not done with the stuff like the Clearaudio Emotion or Roksan Radius 5 or Rega P3s of the world IMO. Although yes I would agree that they will take down a number of filtered over and upsampling CD players.

[hifitommy]

we will have to agree to disagree. the essence of music is on vinyl which conveys a satisfaction and relaxation factor not available in cd and at much lower outlay for hardware and software.

thats not to say that all vinyl sounds better than all cd.

[RGA]

Hifitommy

It may also be a factor of what you listen to - 60s jazz on LP simply walks all over any CD from that era - some walk all over most every recording I have period. And it may be due to the different mics used and the very sloppy digital transfers to CD. Those early CDs and CD players were truly atrocious - I don't think a lot of those guys who passed judgment back then have bothered to go back and give newer players a try.

There is much more of a difference between upscale turntables and entry level turntables. A $5k turntable rig is vastly vastly better than a $1k model - that isn't nearly as true with CD players. It's also a reason I still have my Cambridge Audio CD 6. Because while it is outclassed by a few CD players it isn't outclassed enough to part with the coin to really bother. The CD 2.1 outclasses it in terms of sound but not ergonomics (and I left the country).

I guess I was just not thrilled with the budget tables I have heard - the first thing one wants to do is start "fiddling" with them and upgrading them and replacing plinths or arm bearings or adding mats. If it truly sounded good then that desire would not likely be there to the degree that there is an entire industry around trying to make a stock P2/P3 sound good. It would have made more sense to start with a much better turntable where that isn't necessary.

People will drop $1500 on air conditioning on a car for 6 weeks of heat without a second look but $1500 on a turntable that will give you 30 years of enjoyment - no - we need to be cheap and buy the $700 model that we need to put $800 more into to get to sound 60% as good as the $1500 table.

I think I erred by saying you can't do it on the cheap. You can if you go used. Fortunately turntables have very high depreciation so it is possible to get a very good suspended Thorens or Systemdek for cheap - pay a couple hundred and get it fixed up and then you have something that will kick the snot out of CD - but these tables were not cheap in their day - they were award winners and upper scale brands and models - Rega P2s of the world simply don't compete.

I think someone like yourself could get it to work on the cheap but newbies in their 30s and under who grew up on CD will have no idea what to look for - so they will pay more money for a P2 (as I did) and very possibly be underwhelmed. When for the same $500 I could have went the used route and got a $1500 level or more sounding deck.

[tube fan]

What exactly does age have to do with anything - a 20 year old Voyd Reference 3a is still considered one of the handful best decks built and yes better than anything I have heard from Clearaudio, rega and ProJect. - And it's one reason you will pay many times the original price for a Voyd on the used market.

The SystemDek tables have had pretty significant changes made to it by Audio Note - a new motor, platter, wiring etc. A used Systemdek at least has these upgrade option available to it. Many older decks from Thorens for example - do not.

It comes down to design - a suspended platter design is different than non suspended platter designs - and done right it's tough going to the non suspended types. The TT1 is the best table I have heard in the price range - around $1700 with arm and cartridge. It is easily better than the Clearaudio Emotion the dealer had set-up. Buying used has some issues - the condition of the thing for a start. And the systemdek isn't as good but it will be in the ballpark and will only run $300-$400.

I think it's important to judge it after you've actually heard it. The TT1 is better than it looks. Looks is a difficult thing to pass up I suppose.

I have both types of TTs and VASTLY prefer non suspended TTs: better timbre and bass. Most suspended TTs sound lightweight IMO. The Lynn is particularly overrated.

[hifitommy]

thats ODD. i was first attracted to the SOTA sapphire because its bass semmed to go to the center of the earth. on my friend's system with IMF monitor IIIs improved (flat to 16Hz), it was obvious that it does.

so much for your theory.

[Enochrome]

...said the classical fan.

I agree with Poppa, I do have a fondness for suspended decks. Suspended decks bring out the bass and provide a full tonal balance, as much as this novice can tell.

As far as older suspended decks, most people always speak of two in high regard: the Linn LP 12 and the Thorens TD-125mk2.

I am in the process of rebuilding a TD-125 and from my experience unless you can find one locally in excellent condition I would pass on it. Their are too many things that can wrong with them, from the electronics, the motor and down to the bearing. These are all common problems that unless you fix tables for a living, they are a P.I.A.

I would look for a good Rega P3, Music Hall MMF 5 or a believe it or not SL-1200; all of them are solid performers and relatively bullet proof ( except for the RB300 wiring it is absolute crap)

Sh*t I have a Pioneer PL-112 that is solid. It is suspended, holds speed like its military and the tonearm isn't special but its dependable and the counter weight, and arm tube is solidly built. Especially, the counterweight: it is very precise, even more so than the generic Rega's and my Jelco (although overall performance those two trump the Pioneer). I spent $35 on it as an emergency deck and I could not be more happy.

I would by whatever has the best build quality to put it simply.

[hifitommy]

the sota sapphire is suspended and i love it. likewise the vpi hw19III i had. if one is experiencing a lack of deep bass with a suspended tt, i suggest that its a fault of that design or setup.

[Enochrome]

the sota sapphire is suspended and i love it. likewise the vpi hw19III i had. if one is experiencing a lack of deep bass with a suspended tt, i suggest that its a fault of that design or setup.


Ditto

[RGA]

I can't speak to the LINN fully since I never had it for long enough. Some Linn set-ups are not all the good. Suspended tables take more work to set up correctly and reading Scott Faller many suspended decks are not very well designed Joe Audiophile Turntables And Bandwidth Article By Scott Faller (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm)

Linn may be "overrated" as this Linn LP 12 owner trade his in for a AN TT2 at significantly less money - he's not the only one so TubeFan may have a point - but I liked what I heard over the likes of oracle and Clearaudio the store also sold (but over time I may have drawn a different conclusion). Vinyl Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note AN-TT Two Turntables by MikeRanfft (http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Turntables/Audio-Note/AN-TT-Two/vinyl/236400.html)

Perhaps just need to hear a very good one. http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/HFC10_AN.pdf though you may need a step up transformer for your home.

[hifitommy]

Linn may be "overrated"

nah, i dont think so. they are very fiddly and require a lot of nurturing and that scotches ownership for many people. most people want a tt that they can set up and only mess with if changing a cartridge or tonearm.

its one of the attributes of the sota and VPI.

[RGA]

Linn may be "overrated"

nah, i dont think so. they are very fiddly and require a lot of nurturing and that scotches ownership for many people. most people want a tt that they can set up and only mess with if changing a cartridge or tonearm.

its one of the attributes of the sota and VPI.

Yes in general when a piece retains value and is sought after - they're not overrated. The Voyd Reference suspended tables sell for many many times their original price (even factoring in inflation). Most turntables are worth less than 1/2 the second you walk out of the door. Suspended takes effort - often a dedicated stand or wall-mount.

I liked the Linn I heard - Soundhounds is a vinyl first dealer (one of the very very few) and have 20,000 LPs all over the place. They can repair all of them, and they set them up for people because they know how. It's important for beginners to have such an experienced dealer - this is the plug and play generation after all.

[hifitommy]

hopefully, these customers are having the setup done just the first time. the enjoyment of the hobby comes from being able to accomplish certain procedures for yourself. but then it WOULD be nice to have the equivalent of scott markwell come in regularly to sharpen things up.