Car Talk: I'm looking for a compact hatch

[Woochifer]

After 380k miles, my trusty old Acura Integra just got a terminal diagnosis from the mechanic -- zero compression in one cylinder and fused spark plugs on two others. The car still drives, but it's on borrowed time and only operating on three cylinders. Basically, fixing this would require removing the cylinder head ($$$), and there are too many other things already going on to justify that kind of repair bill.

So, I'm now back in the market for a car! Basically, I'm looking to stay with a compact car, preferably a hatchback/wagon. If possible, I'd also prefer a manual transmission. While I do enjoy sporty performance, I am also looking at a high gas mileage vehicle (concession to my wife, who wants something "green"). Here's my list so far:

Mazda3
The last car we bought was a Mazda5, which is surprisingly sporty considering that it's an imminently practical tall wagon/small minivan. Aside from a leaky strut that now needs replacing, we've had zero problems through 75k miles.

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/11q1/2012_mazda_3_to_get_face_lift_163-hp_skyactiv_engine-car_news/gallery/2012_mazda_3_5-door_photo_25/4129134-1-eng-US/2012_mazda_3_5_door_101_2_cd_gallery.jpg

Given that I've always liked how the Mazdas drive and our positive experience with the 5, the Mazda3 is getting the first look. The 3 is a lot of fun to drive, and they've had a solid reliability record. In previous years, the mileage with the Mazda3 was not great, especially with the larger 2.5L engine (which was the only one available on the hatch/wagon).

However, for 2012 Mazda has introduced their new Skyactiv drivetrain. Basically, an all-new engine/transmission combo that is rated at 40 MPG highway. The reviews indicate that this engine has a lot of usable power, and achieves the high mileage without having to resort to low resistance tires and other tweaks that drain the performance. The Hyundai Elantra is the only other "regular" car in the compact class rated for 40 MPG, all the others are detuned variants.

http://www.mazdaproductreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/SkyActiv-engine.jpg

So, this would seem like a slam dunk, right? Well, the only thing that gives me pause is the fact that this is a brand new engine and transmission design. It's Mazda's first ground-up new engine in 10 years, and their first ground-up new transmission in more than 20 years. I would prefer a little more seasoning and reliability data before jumping on board. But, given that I don't know how many more months my Acura will hold up, I might not have that option. This is a dilemma, because brand new drivetrains are always a risk.

Ford Focus
The Ford Focus uses the same C1 platform as the Mazda3, and has received similarly high marks for how it drives. In more recent years, Ford has ironed out the reliability problems that plagued the first generation models. And last year, Ford as a whole ranked #5 in the J.D. Power IQS.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/2012-Focus-front-quarter-550x412.jpg

However, this year, Ford has slipped badly, and much of that has been attributed to their widely implemented MyFord Touch touchscreen control system. Aside from the confusing layout and controls, the system has also been prone to crashes (any surprise that Microsoft designed it?). The lower level models don't use this setup, which might limit my choices.

The Focus is available as a 5-door hatch, which I like, and the price is comparable to the Mazda3. The mileage is a little lower than the Mazda, but still pretty good (37 MPG highway). One potential issue is the transmission, which the Focus shares with the Fiesta that debuted last year. The automatic tranny uses a dual clutch design, which is great for fast shifts, but purportedly gets balky at slow speeds and has had reliability problems. I would likely opt for the manual transmission, but I don't know how many of them I will have to choose from, since dealers tend to stock mostly ATs.

VW Golf TDI
Here's where I get into more of a "green" option. VW has been selling clean diesel cars overseas for years, and began importing them into the US a few years ago. Mileage is great and the performance is also supposed to be good. Plus, the TDIs can run on eco-friendly biodiesel. Generally, I like how VWs drive and their interiors have been better appointed than competing models.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/04/lead1vwgolftdireview2010.jpg

Drawbacks include VW's current trend towards decontenting, cheapening, and softening their US models (the new Jetta is an abomination compared to the previous version). Also, VW's diesel engines have been less reliable than their gas engines. And I know people who have had to deal with electrical problems galore on their VWs. Supposedly, the electrical system issues were ironed out in the last series, and the German-built Golfs have historically had a better reliability record than the Mexican-built Jettas.

The list prices on the Golf TDIs are reasonable, but I see in the fine print that VW's diesel models are usually excluded from their financing deals. So, the actual cost of buying the Golf TDI might be a lot higher than another car with a similar sticker price. The test drive will go a long way towards deciding if the VWs stay on my list.

Honda Civic and Fit
Given that my Integra is a spiritual descendent of the Civic, I'm surprised I haven't looked closer at the Hondas. I guess I'm too much of a hatchback fan, and the last few generations of Civics just haven't excited me much. Despite the atrocious interior design, I thought the most recent Civic was a pleasant drive. Just not as engaging as the Mazda3.

http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2012/Honda/2012.honda.civic.20373846-E.jpg

And I've been reading that the new Civic got dumbed down for the US market -- softer suspension, bulkier dimensions, and cheapened interior (and the last one was already bad enough). The one aspect that the Civic always had in its favor was the gas mileage. But, with the new Mazda drivetrain, that advantage has been negated. I've driven the Civic hybrid, and it didn't do anything for me. Plus, Honda's hybrid design is less efficient than others, which means that its gas mileage is not much higher than the newer direct-injection gas engines and diesels.

The Fit is closer to what I'm looking for, except that it's a subcompact. Honda supposedly did a great job at packaging the car and creating a lot of usable space in the interior. And it's purportedly more of a driver's car than the Civic, despite its modest engine. I've read generally mixed things about the Fit, and I have yet to drive one, so that's something the test drive will take care of.

http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2012/Honda/2012.honda.fit.20386407-E.jpg

Other Models
Other models like could fall under consideration if I decide to venture beyond compact hatchbacks and higher efficiency models. Lots of test driving and kicking the tires ahead! And I will probably hit the auto show next month to get a close up view of what's out there. It was actually at an auto show that my wife and I discovered the Mazda5, so who knows what as-of-yet-unknown vehicle might strike my fancy.

[GMichael]

All good choices. Last year at this time I was taking a hard look at the VW Golf TDI as well as it's Audi A3 counterpart. The drawback was that it didn't come with 4 wheel drive. If you don't get snow like we do, this would get my vote.

[Groundbeef]

I like the looks of the Kia Soul. And they have a 5 speed manual, and the price is attractive.

I think they have a pretty long warrenty as well, similar to Huyndai.

[Woochifer]

All good choices. Last year at this time I was taking a hard look at the VW Golf TDI as well as it's Audi A3 counterpart. The drawback was that it didn't come with 4 wheel drive. If you don't get snow like we do, this would get my vote.

In sunny Cali, AWD would be more of a hindrance than a plus. That's why I'm not really looking at the Subarus.

[GMichael]

In sunny Cali, AWD would be more of a hindrance than a plus. That's why I'm not really looking at the Subarus.

I like the idea of the clean diesel. Not a ton of HP, but plenty of torque. It would have no trouble with any mountains you may need to climb. Good gas mileage without any batteries to end up in a land fill 20 years from now.
I ended up with a Subaru. Only 30mpg, but that was the best mileage of any AWD cars at the time.

[Woochifer]

I like the looks of the Kia Soul. And they have a 5 speed manual, and the price is attractive.

I think they have a pretty long warrenty as well, similar to Huyndai.

Hey Beefy, good to see you!

I thought about the Kia Soul -- it's definitely an eyecatching design. I see that they do have an Eco model that's tuned for higher mileage by using a stop-start engine. I'd have to see how it drives before moving it higher on my list. In my previous experiences, I generally haven't liked compact SUVs very much.

As for other Kias, I hadn't considered them until I drove the new Kia Rio5 as a rental. It's a subcompact 5-door, but drives a lot better than the previous Kias that I've rented. Mileage that I got was around 34 MPG in mostly twisting highway driving. Ride was a bit choppy and the handling got slightly twitchy in the turns, but overall it was a decent ride. If I go with a Kia, it would likely be the Forte hatchback.

[ForeverAutumn]

I used to drive a Ford Focus and I absolutely loved it! It was the high-end model with the bigger/faster engine. It was quite a few years ago though so I don't know what the newer models are like. I'm on my third Ford Escape (I used to take out three year leases) and I can't imagine driving anything else. While it's not considered a compact by any means, if you compare the width and length to the Focus they used to be very similar...again, not sure about the newer models. The Escape is available as a Hybrid.

[JohnMichael]

I have friends who both have Fits and really like them. How about the Nissan Versa. I think they come in two different engine sizes a 1.6 and a 1.8. Of course I would try one of their CVT transmissions. I used to drive standards all the time but have learned to enjoy an automatic.

My Toyota Echo which is now the Yaris has 107,000 miles and is 10 years old has been a great car. The engine uses a timing chain instead of the belt so no problems with belt replacements. New body style for the 2012 model year. Other than fluids and normal wear parts the only things the car has needed was a little exhaust work where the pipe bends over the rear axle and repair of the sway bars. The two repairs cost me $100 total. Now it is ready for the next 100,000.

[Feanor]

I think you've identified the contenders, Wooch.

You might add the Hyundai Elantra Touring which is really as small station wagon.

Personally we'll be looking for a new car by this time next year. I'm looking at a small wagon, but maybe a little bigger than the Elantra Touring mentioned above. One contender for us is the Kia Rondo, but most of all we like the Mazda 5. My wife & I test drove this and it's really nice; also it's Consumer Reports top rated wagon ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/Mazda5_2011.jpg

[GMichael]

I have friends who both have Fits and really like them. How about the Nissan Versa. I think they come in two different engine sizes a 1.6 and a 1.8. Of course I would try one of their CVT transmissions. I used to drive standards all the time but have learned to enjoy an automatic.

My Toyota Echo which is now the Yaris has 107,000 miles and is 10 years old has been a great car. The engine uses a timing chain instead of the belt so no problems with belt replacements. New body style for the 2012 model year. Other than fluids and normal wear parts the only things the car has needed was a little exhaust work where the pipe bends over the rear axle and repair of the sway bars. The two repairs cost me $100 total. Now it is ready for the next 100,000.

My Suby has a CVT tranny. It gets better milage than the manual tranies of the same model. IMO they are worth looking into. Watch for reports on the model & mfg you are interested in. I know that Nisson had some problems with them a couple years ago. Don't know if they worked it out though.

[blackraven]

Wooch, I did a lot of traveling this summer and got to drive the new Ford Focus. I was very impressed to say the least. The car was designed in Germany and it shows. The car rides and handles like a German car. It has a very well controlled firm but comfortable ride. It handles corners well without excess body lean. The car feels much heavier than it is in a good way. It feels more solid, not cumbersome. Handling feels crisp and precise Fit and finish was very good. It's also very quiet inside with very little road noise for a car in this class. My only beef's with it are that the electronic controls can be confusing and that one of the turn levers was cheap. The car could also use a bit more take off power but I did not get to drive the sport model that has a bigger engine I believe. The Focus comes in Sedan and Hatchback models.

If I were looking for a small comfortable well handling car the Focus would be it. Ford really has a winner with this car.

If you are looking for a fun car to drive then I would consider the VW Golf. But reliability and maintenance costs can be an issue. I think that VW's are good if you are only going to keep the car for 3-4yrs.

I am also a fan of the Mazda 3 and was a fan of the Civic till Honda downgraded the car to cut costs. The same goes for the VW Jetta. Read the reviews on the new Civic and Jetta, they are not very good for the most part.

The new Elantra is a very nice car, good styling, great mpg and interior fit and finish is a big notch above the other cars I mentioned. But road noise is an issue.

[Woochifer]

I used to drive a Ford Focus and I absolutely loved it! It was the high-end model with the bigger/faster engine. It was quite a few years ago though so I don't know what the newer models are like. I'm on my third Ford Escape (I used to take out three year leases) and I can't imagine driving anything else. While it's not considered a compact by any means, if you compare the width and length to the Focus they used to be very similar...again, not sure about the newer models. The Escape is available as a Hybrid.

The Focus is definitely a strong contender. I rented the previous version a few times, and liked how it drove. The new model finally brings the C1 platform to the U.S. Mazda has used it since 2004 for the 3 and the 5, and the European Ford Focus has been using it as well since 2006. The new Focus is Ford's attempt to unify all of their global variants into one design.

I'm not really looking at compact SUVs, so I haven't considered the Escape.


I have friends who both have Fits and really like them. How about the Nissan Versa. I think they come in two different engine sizes a 1.6 and a 1.8. Of course I would try one of their CVT transmissions. I used to drive standards all the time but have learned to enjoy an automatic.

My Toyota Echo which is now the Yaris has 107,000 miles and is 10 years old has been a great car. The engine uses a timing chain instead of the belt so no problems with belt replacements. New body style for the 2012 model year. Other than fluids and normal wear parts the only things the car has needed was a little exhaust work where the pipe bends over the rear axle and repair of the sway bars. The two repairs cost me $100 total. Now it is ready for the next 100,000.

I drove a CVT several years ago, and absolutely hated it. I know it's a very different design, and can be disorienting because there are no gear shifts involved. The newer versions are supposedly a lot better than before, so I won't automatically rule it out if I find a car that meets my criteria and happens to use a CVT.

Except for the Fit, I've (for now) ruled out subcompacts like the Fiesta, Mazda2, Sonic, Rio, Versa, and Yaris. I want to move through my compact class choices first before widening my search. For now, the limiting factor seems to be my preference for a hatchback, which seems prevalent among subcompacts, but scarcer among larger cars (for example, no hatchback Civics, Corollas, Cruzes, or Elantras).


You might add the Hyundai Elantra Touring which is really as small station wagon.

Personally we'll be looking for a new car by this time next year. I'm looking at a small wagon, but maybe a little bigger than the Elantra Touring mentioned above. One contender for us is the Kia Rondo, but most of all we like the Mazda 5. My wife & I test drove this and it's really nice; also it's Consumer Reports top rated wagon ...

The Elantra is definitely an interesting choice, and has gotten a lot of acclaim. Unfortunately, the touring wagon is a carryover from the previous version, so it's saddled with the old chassis and drivetrain. The new Elantra versions are only available with a trunk, which limits their appeal for me. If Hyundai decides to come out with a new version of the wagon, with the latest chassis and drivetrain refinements, then I would be all over it.

We've had a Mazda5 since 2007 when our daughter was born. It's really the only true MINIvan on the market right now (Kia no longer imports the Rondo to the US). It's a great family hauler and drives better than any minivan or SUV I've experienced. And its size is well suited to navigating tight urban spaces like San Francisco. Mazda also priced it very competitively. We're really happy with that car.


Wooch, I did a lot of traveling this summer and got to drive the new Ford Focus. I was very impressed to say the least. The car was designed in Germany and it shows. The car rides and handles like a German car. It has a very well controlled firm but comfortable ride. It handles corners well without excess body lean. The car feels much heavier than it is in a good way. It feels more solid, not cumbersome. Handling feels crisp and precise Fit and finish was very good. It's also very quiet inside with very little road noise for a car in this class. My only beef's with it are that the electronic controls can be confusing and that one of the turn levers was cheap. The car could also use a bit more take off power but I did not get to drive the sport model that has a bigger engine I believe. The Focus comes in Sedan and Hatchback models.

If I were looking for a small comfortable well handling car the Focus would be it. Ford really has a winner with this car.

My understanding is that the Ford Focus' C1 platform was a collaborative between Ford's North American and European divisions, Mazda, and Volvo. The Wikipedia entry says that each company sent 30 engineers to Ford's development center in Cologne, Germany for two years to develop that platform. The Mazda3 was the first car to use that platform, then came the Volvo S40 and the European Focus.

Ford North America waited until now to finally build a Focus model around that platform. Sounds like it was worth the wait. If I do opt for the Focus, I would definitely stick with the manual tranny and at least try to find a model without the MyFord touch controls. The automatic transmission and MyFord options have had major reliability issues, which is too bad because it seems that otherwise, Ford has been doing pretty well with their build quality.


If you are looking for a fun car to drive then I would consider the VW Golf. But reliability and maintenance costs can be an issue. I think that VW's are good if you are only going to keep the car for 3-4yrs.

Good point. I soured on VW several years ago when I saw how crappy their electrical systems were -- not just unreliable but ill-conceived designs that never should have gone into mass production. They're definitely more expensive to maintain than comparable compacts. But, the TDI option is very intriguing, since it promises mileage comparable to a hybrid, but with huge amounts of torque.


I am also a fan of the Mazda 3 and was a fan of the Civic till Honda downgraded the car to cut costs. The same goes for the VW Jetta. Read the reviews on the new Civic and Jetta, they are not very good for the most part.

The new Elantra is a very nice car, good styling, great mpg and interior fit and finish is a big notch above the other cars I mentioned. But road noise is an issue.

Too bad about the Civic and the Jetta. They decided to let the beancounters design a car, and this is what we got. Unfortunately, the ploy of dumbing down and decontenting those cars might actually work because they're trading down for a lower sticker price and more space -- aspects that appeal to the North American market. The Elantra has gotten great reviews, but it's too bad hat Hyundai decided not to come out with a new version of Elantra wagon, choosing instead to carry over the old model.

The Mazda3 is my #1 contender right now, but I need to see how the new high mileage Skyactiv drivetrain performs. If it measures up to the early reviews, then I will need to assess whether I'm willing to take the risk with a brand new engine and transmission design.

[frahengeo]

I think you've identified the contenders, Wooch.

You might add the Hyundai Elantra Touring which is really as small station wagon.

Personally we'll be looking for a new car by this time next year. I'm looking at a small wagon, but maybe a little bigger than the Elantra Touring mentioned above. One contender for us is the Kia Rondo, but most of all we like the Mazda 5. My wife & I test drove this and it's really nice; also it's Consumer Reports top rated wagon ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/Mazda5_2011.jpg

My wife and I are interested in the Mazda Micro Van as well. My recollection of CR's rating was just average. However, I was concentrating more on the reliability ratings, than anything else.

Of the choices listed, my vote would be for the FIT with its Honda reliability, low gas consumption, and all around good looks.

[Feanor]

My wife and I are interested in the Mazda Micro Van as well. My recollection of CR's rating was just average. However, I was concentrating more on the reliability ratings, than anything else.

Of the choices listed, my vote would be for the FIT with its Honda reliability, low gas consumption, and all around good looks.
I'm not sure whether it's the "Mazda Micro Van" you refer to, but the Mazda 5 Grand Touring was top rated in the 'Wagon' category in the April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue.

CR granted it a 95 score which is among the highest ratings of any vehical in any category. Predicted reliability was average however.

[recoveryone]

Well if the Focus is a contender then get this model:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-3HWqe8n7FjOfhpoJgaw5OyswoKpH-H2TmXN3iZm5pccgQ0DG

2010 Ford Focus RS: First U.S. Drive

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2011/10/medium_focus_rs_first_drive.jpg (http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2011/10/focus_rs_first_drive.jpg)The Ford Focus RS (http://jalopnik.com/5462561/your-best-chance-to-own-a-focus-rs-in-the-us) is the most lustworthy European hot hatch forbidden to us Yanks. No journalist has dared put all 305 hp of its front-wheel-drive madness down on red, white, and blue soil. Until now.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_01.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/1)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_02.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/2)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_03.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/3)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_04.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/4)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_05.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/5)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_06.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/6)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_07.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/7)http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/05/126x100_focus_rs_ext_08.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/8)
View the gallery (http://jalopnik.com/5535210/ford-focus-rs-exterior-photos/gallery/)

Like all great journeys into uncharted territory, the arrival of a privately owned '11 Ford Focus RS on Texas soil began with a series of circumstances worthy of Jules Verne. In honor of its having sold cars in Mexico for a century, Ford decided to bless the country with five examples of the German-built RS. An enterprising dealer posted the car on eBay, and we immediately reposted the listing here (http://jalopnik.com/5462561/your-best-chance-to-own-a-focus-rs-in-the-us). Less than 48 hours later, a member of the Jalop faithful made an offer (http://jalopnik.com/5464201/viva-los-hoons-jalopnik-reader-buys-mexican-focus-rs) on the car, and in doing so, made history. Here's the story of an enterprising car guy, an international journey, and one crazy green car.

[Woochifer]

My wife and I are interested in the Mazda Micro Van as well. My recollection of CR's rating was just average. However, I was concentrating more on the reliability ratings, than anything else.

Of the choices listed, my vote would be for the FIT with its Honda reliability, low gas consumption, and all around good looks.

Keep in mind that Consumer Reports' reliability ratings are based on statistical deviations from the average for a given year, not the actual repair rate. In general, the auto industry's repair frequency is much lower than a decade or two ago.

The issue that I have with CR's methodology is that they have very little documentation on how they arrive at their ratings. We don't know what the actual average is, and what deviation differentiates "better than average" from "much better than average." Some cars will have nearly all of the individual components rated as "average" yet the overall rating is "better than average" or "much better than average." If they weight different components more than others, they don't tell you.

By comparison, JD Power's IQS rankings are very clear -- they show the average number of defects per 100 vehicles, and the rankings are based on that number. If you look at it, the differences between different manufacturers is minimal for the most part, and the actual number of defects per car is much lower than it was 10 or 20 years ago. I have also started looking up True Delta's reliability data, which is similarly transparent.

A decade ago, Consumer Reports scrapped their statistically derived ratings and went with a straight scale based on the percentage of owners reporting problems. This was much more transparent, but it wound up confirming an obvious trend -- the newer the car, the more reliable it is. They went back to their less transparent statistical ratings a few years later.

Also, a single problem area can drive the entire rating down, and the problem area for the Mazda5 has been the suspension. And this has been my experience as well. With our car at 75k, we need a new front strut. Supposedly Mazda fixed this with the 2010 models (and presumably the new 2012 model as well -- there was no 2011 model).


Like all great journeys into uncharted territory, the arrival of a privately owned '11 Ford Focus RS on Texas soil began with a series of circumstances worthy of Jules Verne. In honor of its having sold cars in Mexico for a century, Ford decided to bless the country with five examples of the German-built RS. An enterprising dealer posted the car on eBay, and we immediately reposted the listing here. Less than 48 hours later, a member of the Jalop faithful made an offer on the car, and in doing so, made history. Here's the story of an enterprising car guy, an international journey, and one crazy green car.

Wow, I've seen a lot of modified Focus SVTs at race tracks, but this is a whole different level! If Mazda can bring its 260 HP Mazdaspeed3 to US shores, why can't Ford bring this model here? Since Ford is now selling the same version of the Focus in all countries, there's no longer any reason to withhold the good stuff from us.

[Woochifer]

Well, looks like indeed Ford took a big tumble in the latest Consumer Reports reliability rankings. Not entirely unexpected, since JD Power's IQS ranking had earlier shown the same trend. Ford's reliability problems appear entirely driven by the MyFord Touch control system and their new dual clutch auto transmissions.

Ford falls, Chrysler jumps in Consumer Reports reliability survey (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/25/ford-falls-chrysler-jumps-in-consumer-reports-reliabilit/)

I've been checking my local dealer inventory, and the vast majority of the Focus models in stock have both the touch screen and the automatic tranny. With the reliability info, I'm definitely looking to the manual and no touch screen. Unfortunately, the dealers want to pack those features into the cars on the lot, and the manuals are only available at the lower trim levels.

Mazda now ranks #5 on the Consumer Reports list and about that high on the JD Power ranking as well. The general trend though is that reliability tends to increase as a model ages, and Mazda's reliability benefited from having no new models. I would expect things to tumble this year, since Mazda has introduced two new models, and a brand new engine and transmission design.

Right now, I'm waiting for the new Mazda3 to start arriving with the new engine and manual transmission. The automatics have arrived, but I want to try both on the same visit.

[kexodusc]

Geez doesn't seem that long ago you were buying a Mazda5.

I got stuck with a Focus to rent recently. I was pretty damned impressed. I can't knock the Mazda3 but it's given up a lot of ground in the "fun to drive" category it used to dominate its competitors in. I'm going by shoddy memory here, but the Focus felt a lot roomier to me.

Sadly, I know several diehard VW fans who don't speak kindly of the Golf or Jetta right now. Sounds like VW's shifted it's approach to competing in those segments.

We drove a lot of vehicles before deciding on the Equinox a few months back, Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd own another GM product, and the Ford Edge was a top consideration. The domestics are making some pretty nice vehicles right now. I don't know if it'll win out over the Mazda but if you get a chance to run the manual Focus I would be curious to hear your impression.

[winston]

how about those Toyota Scion's, I'm not sure how the 2012 models is gonna stack up, but base on their pass performance they might be a worthy contender!!

my son drives a (2005 XB) from Miami to Gainesville, two to three times per month, (except during the Summer) for three and a half years, averaging about 46-47,000 miles, with just the schedule maintenance, to date its a 180,000 miles on it, I just did all the (belts) that little box is ugly but still (hip) and I consider my self a very lucky man by choosing Scion XB for him, as I have no complain about the maintenance cost.

take a look at the 2012 line up, the numbers are looking good plus meet the new (iQ) Scion (http://www.scion.com/#/home?gclid=CKrLnvqCnKwCFY9V7AodbWt6Bw)

[Woochifer]

Geez doesn't seem that long ago you were buying a Mazda5.

Hey Kex, how's fatherhood treating you? :crazy:

Yeah, it wasn't all that long ago (then I look at my no-longer-a-baby four-year old)!


I got stuck with a Focus to rent recently. I was pretty damned impressed. I can't knock the Mazda3 but it's given up a lot of ground in the "fun to drive" category it used to dominate its competitors in. I'm going by shoddy memory here, but the Focus felt a lot roomier to me.

I have not yet sat in the Focus, but the measures seem to point to a slightly roomier interior than the Mazda3. It seems that with the new CAFE standards looming, the car makers have finally made a concerted effort to make their smaller cars more appealing, and start deploying all the drivetrain technology they've been hoarding all these years (e.g., direct injection, dual-clutch transmissions, stop-start engines, cylinder deactivation, etc.).

Up to this point, small cars in the U.S. market have largely been viewed as loss leaders -- make them as cheaply as possible just to get buyers into the showrooms. Not much attention was paid to making them more fully featured or using higher quality materials in the interiors or upping the ante on the performance. That doesn't seem to be the dominant view overseas, where the small car market is much more mainstream.

Mazda was one of the few companies that tried to make an enthusiast-oriented small car that didn't cut a lot of corners. That made the Mazda3 more expensive, but it's also why the 3 has been so well regarded. This is how Honda was 20 years ago, but with the latest Civic, they really seem lost.

The one strike against the Mazda3 has been the mediocre fuel mileage. But, if the new Skyactiv drivetrain achieves 40 MPG while retaining the Mazda3's sportiness, it puts them at or near the top of the pack.


Sadly, I know several diehard VW fans who don't speak kindly of the Golf or Jetta right now. Sounds like VW's shifted it's approach to competing in those segments.

My first car was a VW Bug, so I've been a long time VW fan, and the direction they've gone with the new Jetta and Passat (cheaper, softer, and bigger) is sad to see.

Unfortunately, the new Jetta is by all accounts a bloated Toyota Corolla wannabe. All the things that made VWs unique in the small car segment (the German ride and dynamics, the polished and upscale interior, the efficient space packaging, and the tight tasteful exterior lines) have been jettisoned to hit a lower price point and gain bragging rights over size.

My understanding is that the Golf is a very different car from the North American version of the Jetta (even the Jetta sold overseas is different). It retains more of its German character, and VW didn't cheap out on the parts and materials. It also helps that the Golfs imported to the U.S. are still German-made (historically, even with all of VWs quality control issues, their German-made cars have remained more reliable than the ones built elsewhere). The Golf TDI is on my list because my understanding is that the Golf was not dumbed down for the American market. Unfortunately, the TDI also costs about $4k more than the Skyactiv Mazda3


We drove a lot of vehicles before deciding on the Equinox a few months back, Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd own another GM product, and the Ford Edge was a top consideration. The domestics are making some pretty nice vehicles right now. I don't know if it'll win out over the Mazda but if you get a chance to run the manual Focus I would be curious to hear your impression.

If Chevy made the Cruze as a hatchback, it would definitely be on my list. GM made the correct call in going all out on the Cruze. The timing was perfect (showing up at dealers just as gas prices began climbing again) and the product quality was good. The risk GM took with ramping the Cruze up to full production immediately has paid off, as Ford took a more cautious approach in starting up the Focus, and the Cruze's sales have been huge.

GM has done a decent job of focusing on their product, and letting that serve as the selling point rather than the incentives. They still seem to lag behind other competitors, but at least they're now in the conversation and not a laughing stock like before.


how about those Toyota Scion's, I'm not sure how the 2012 models is gonna stack up, but base on their pass performance they might be a worthy contender!!

my son drives a (2005 XB) from Miami to Gainesville, two to three times per month, (except during the Summer) for three and a half years, averaging about 46-47,000 miles, with just the schedule maintenance, to date its a 180,000 miles on it, I just did all the (belts) that little box is ugly but still (hip) and I consider my self a very lucky man by choosing Scion XB for him, as I have no complain about the maintenance cost.

take a look at the 2012 line up, the numbers are looking good plus meet the new (iQ) Scion

My wife and I looked at the Scion xB four years ago, and it was just a bit too small for what we needed at that time with a medium sized dog and a baby on the way. Friends of ours who drove the xB absolutely loved them.

Now, it has somewhat flipped around. Since we already have a Mazda5, we can go with a smaller car this time. But, the current Scion xB is now larger and more of a gas guzzler than what I'm looking for this time. Seems that Toyota paid more attention to those non-buyers who complained about the xB's small size, than those who did choose the xB because of its more modest proportions.

The iQ is an interesting car, but I'll probably weigh my options in the compact class before going to the subcompacts.

[texlle]

As an individual who is used to the richly textured interior of an acura, I'm surprised you're content with the mazda. I like mazda and all, they really are a fun drive with quick reflexes and great power, but I could never get past the cutrate feel of their interiors to where I'd consider owning one. They look awesome on paper, and in person, the fitment is on par with other Japanese brands, but there is just a sense of cheapness about them. And I thought hyundai's were moderately guilty of this.

If handling characteristics, fuel economy, reliability, and the versatility of a hatch factor largely into your consideration, I would have a look at the VW Golf diesel. This seems to fit your bill well. The interior is well appointed with a nice feel and available options galore. The TDI makes fantastic torque that is great for tooling around the city and commuting. The structure is extremely solid and with a million airbags and electronic safety system nannies like TCS, ESC, ABS etc, to keep you safe. I know the VW diesel drivetrain is renowned for its dependability, however, I can't attest to the quality of their electronics, power features, etc. I hear they can be hit or miss with the early 2000's generation VWs, but I've read in various reviews that the new VW's are a vast improvement. Overall, the diesel golf is really a great package.

My vote would go to the new hyundai veloster though. The looks are certainly unique, definitely a love it or hate it affair. Yes it looks like a two door, but the coolest feature of this car is the third door on the passenger side. It is forward hinged like the other two, can be opened independently (unlike the old saturn sc2 and mazda rx-8) and really adds extra versatility. The door handle is hidden in the c-pillar trim so it really does look like a two door.The 1.6L DI engine yields a very economical 28 city/40 mpg highway rating with the 6-speed manual, and can move at a surprisingly un-leisurely pace courtesy of 132 horses and 123 ft lbs of torque. It boasts best in class interior volume and a stylish interior with superb fit and finish relative to class competitors. Like the golf, it has all the safety features you'd expect in today's compact- abs, tcs, esc, enough airbags to catch a falling elephant. No crash test data available yet as it is in its first year of production and was released for sale only a few months ago. Where this car really exceeds expectation is in the tech department. 450 watt dimension 8-speaker stereo, bluetooth connectivity, satellite navigation are all things we've come to expect in an entry level sport sedan, let alone a compact. It also takes fuller advantage of the in-dash lcd by including realtime eco monitoring graphics, turn by turn navigation, ipod/iphone connectivity including Pandora internet radio via your iphone, and bluelink which hyundai's proprietary version of Onstar. It's astonishing how technologically capable this car is. I would make car this my next move, personally, but I'm going the performance route (RWD has become a must for me). The warranty is great too. 5 yr/60k bumper to bumper coverage, and 10 yr/100k powertrain (not that you need it). Also, hyundai has announced a turbo version soon to come, with 200 hp and most likely similar torque.

I can attest to hyundai reliability as I've owned a 2003 Tiburon GTV6 for going on 10 years, a first year model, and have had very few issues with this car. A window motor here, sunroof motor (common issue for the early models like mine), alternator. The engine itself and the transmission have been absolutely bulletproof, as has the chassis. No odd squeaks, clicks, whines, ticks, noises. As quiet as the day I bought it and it runs like new after 150k miles. The only powertrain repairs were the alternator at 70k and the valve cover gaskets at 90k, the latter were covered under warranty. The interior has developed a couple of vibrations/rattles more recently, most notable on rough pavement, but nothing very intrusive. No electrical bugs, everything works on command as it is supposed to, everytime. The reliability is probably the best attribute of this car along with the very communicative steering, agile handling and engine torque of course. It has really surpised me since I took a chance on buying this car when hyundai's reliability was just starting to improve and I can confidently say I'm glad I did.

As far as the others you mentioned, the Honda Fit is also very nice, well built, has a nice, spacious interior, but is just too slow for me with its weed-whacker competitive torque figures. The Civic is just plain ugly, and has fallen behind the other compact mainstays as they have improved greatly in recent years, whereas the civic has stagnated.

I would give a good recommendation to the Focus, but I don't trust ford reliability quite yet. This goes double for GM and Chrysler. Regarding the Kia Forte, it's a nice car with a good options list and nice available power from the 2.4L, but as you stated, the handling is a bit quirky, it gets jittery and twitchy over rough pavement and bumps. The price can't be beat, but you can get a better car with a lame-ass vanilla toyota corolla. On that note, go with the hyundai and get way more for way less. I know I sound like I should sell for hyundai, and maybe I should, but I'm a firm believer in their commitment to the more-for-less business model.

[Woochifer]

As an individual who is used to the richly textured interior of an acura, I'm surprised you're content with the mazda. I like mazda and all, they really are a fun drive with quick reflexes and great power, but I could never get past the cutrate feel of their interiors to where I'd consider owning one. They look awesome on paper, and in person, the fitment is on par with other Japanese brands, but there is just a sense of cheapness about them. And I thought hyundai's were moderately guilty of this.

I wouldn't call an Acura Integra "richly textured"! It's definitely nice, but I don't see the interior of the Mazda3 as a huge step down. Unfortunately, Acura no longer makes a compact sports hatch, and Honda does seem to have taken a dive with their driving dynamics in general. To me, that outweighs anything they might bring to the table with the interior design.

For example, the two-seater hybrid CR-Z has one of the best designed small car interiors I've seen in a long time (THIS is how Honda should have designed the new Civic). Just the right blend of utility, ergonomics, flash, technology, and textures. But, that car has some missing features, and has lower gas mileage, inferior performance, and higher price compared to the Mazda3.

http://automobiles.honda.com/images/2012/cr-z/interior-gallery/gal_lg1.jpg

Our Mazda5 definitely has a cheap feeling interior, but the price, utility, and the driving capability (aside from acceleration) won out in the end when we were car shopping four years ago. We've been very happy with that purchase, which is why the Mazda3 is the odds-on favorite right now. The 2012 version of the Mazda3 removed some of the extraneous metallic and shiny plastic, and it looks better than before.

http://images.automodifiedesign.com/2011/04/2012-Mazda3-Interior-4-1024x724.jpg


If handling characteristics, fuel economy, reliability, and the versatility of a hatch factor largely into your consideration, I would have a look at the VW Golf diesel. This seems to fit your bill well. The interior is well appointed with a nice feel and available options galore. The TDI makes fantastic torque that is great for tooling around the city and commuting. The structure is extremely solid and with a million airbags and electronic safety system nannies like TCS, ESC, ABS etc, to keep you safe. I know the VW diesel drivetrain is renowned for its dependability, however, I can't attest to the quality of their electronics, power features, etc. I hear they can be hit or miss with the early 2000's generation VWs, but I've read in various reviews that the new VW's are a vast improvement. Overall, the diesel golf is really a great package.

For all these reasons, the VW Golf TDI is on my list. I'm anxious for a test drive, and plan to pay very close attention to how the chassis and drivetrain respond. I need to take a close look at how the Golf compares with the newly cheapened and decontented Jetta (if you think the Mazda interiors look cheap, they're downright luxurious compared to the new Jetta). The Jetta interior is nowhere near VW's standard, but unfortunately it seems to be the direction they've gone for the North American models.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/k/I/2/ag_11jettas_int.JPG

And for the reasons you've mentioned, I'm leery of VW's build quality. I know people who had major electrical issues with their VWs, and the TDIs from just a couple of years ago have had two major recalls.


My vote would go to the new hyundai veloster though. The looks are certainly unique, definitely a love it or hate it affair. Yes it looks like a two door, but the coolest feature of this car is the third door on the passenger side. It is forward hinged like the other two, can be opened independently (unlike the old saturn sc2 and mazda rx-8) and really adds extra versatility. The door handle is hidden in the c-pillar trim so it really does look like a two door.The 1.6L DI engine yields a very economical 28 city/40 mpg highway rating with the 6-speed manual, and can move at a surprisingly un-leisurely pace courtesy of 132 horses and 123 ft lbs of torque. It boasts best in class interior volume and a stylish interior with superb fit and finish relative to class competitors. Like the golf, it has all the safety features you'd expect in today's compact- abs, tcs, esc, enough airbags to catch a falling elephant. No crash test data available yet as it is in its first year of production and was released for sale only a few months ago. Where this car really exceeds expectation is in the tech department. 450 watt dimension 8-speaker stereo, bluetooth connectivity, satellite navigation are all things we've come to expect in an entry level sport sedan, let alone a compact. It also takes fuller advantage of the in-dash lcd by including realtime eco monitoring graphics, turn by turn navigation, ipod/iphone connectivity including Pandora internet radio via your iphone, and bluelink which hyundai's proprietary version of Onstar. It's astonishing how technologically capable this car is. I would make car this my next move, personally, but I'm going the performance route (RWD has become a must for me). The warranty is great too. 5 yr/60k bumper to bumper coverage, and 10 yr/100k powertrain (not that you need it). Also, hyundai has announced a turbo version soon to come, with 200 hp and most likely similar torque.

I thought about the Veloster as well, but it has gotten some negative reviews over how it drives and it might be a bit smaller than I'm looking for. Hyundai is definitely on a big hit streak, and very much on the rise. I might come back to Hyundai if my current top choices present some problem issues during the test drives.

The reliability of Hyundai is now very solid. Over the years, I've just not found much excitement driving them (granted these were rentals for previous models, and I have no experience with their current crop). The warranty is a huge plus.


As far as the others you mentioned, the Honda Fit is also very nice, well built, has a nice, spacious interior, but is just too slow for me with its weed-whacker competitive torque figures. The Civic is just plain ugly, and has fallen behind the other compact mainstays as they have improved greatly in recent years, whereas the civic has stagnated.

The Fit very well might be only Honda that I test drive this time around (sad, considering how huge a Honda/Acura fan I was before), and I might give the CR-Z a test drive as well. The Fit is a well packaged car that seems to be the only Honda nowadays (aside from the Civic Si) that gets fun-to-drive kudos.

Even Honda now acknowledges that they've screwed up their latest revision to the Civic, making specific mention over how upset they were that Consumer Reports removed them from their recommended cars. First off, it's sad to hear just how important Consumer Reports looms in their thinking. In this case, they outguessed themselves, because they thought the Civic would stay on CR's recommended cars list if they softened it up and made it drive more like a Toyota Corolla. Instead, CR blasted the new Civic for its mediocre performance and general cheapness. Back in the day, Honda would simply design affordable cars that they themselves (many of them coming from motorcycle and racing backgrounds) would want to drive. Now, they've rested on their laurels and built cars that only an accountant would love.

Going to that bilevel digital dash in 2006 was a disaster IMO, yet for the 2012 redesign, Honda decided to "fix" the parts of the car that weren't broken. The new version looks much like the previous one, only cheaper.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D6JAUjaeJ9A/TY9GU4DcsvI/AAAAAAAAAz4/W7QwzxJmqkc/s1600/112_0808_10z%2525252525252B2009_honda_civic%252525 2525252Binterior.jpg

Rumors abound that Honda is now in total crisis mode with the Civic, planning a major redesign for 2013 rather than the planned 2014 refresh. Even with the quake disruption, Civic sales have fallen off big time, and their reputation is taking a beating, with even long-time lapdog Consumer Reports turning on them.


I would give a good recommendation to the Focus, but I don't trust ford reliability quite yet. This goes double for GM and Chrysler. Regarding the Kia Forte, it's a nice car with a good options list and nice available power from the 2.4L, but as you stated, the handling is a bit quirky, it gets jittery and twitchy over rough pavement and bumps. The price can't be beat, but you can get a better car with a lame-ass vanilla toyota corolla. On that note, go with the hyundai and get way more for way less. I know I sound like I should sell for hyundai, and maybe I should, but I'm a firm believer in their commitment to the more-for-less business model.

Even after Ford's tumble in the rankings, the Focus still seems like a solid choice, provided it comes with no touchscreen and no auto tranny (as I've seen, not an easy combination to find). They made great progress over the last few years, but they bit off more technology than they could chew with those gawdawful Microsoft-designed touchscreens.

After driving the Rio as a rental, I thought the Forte would be a good choice. But, its mileage now lags behind the other contenders, and the current version is due to replacement next year.

[texlle]

Supposedly, Ford is going to be revamping the MyFord touch system for their 2013 models because of the numerous complaints regarding performance, in an article I read on autoblog.

I know the integra interior comment was an exaggeration, but I must just really dislike the build quality of the mazda3 interior. On the other end of the mazda lineup, however, the CX-9 uses far superior materials. Much like the Jetta to the Touareg, it sounds like Mazda pulled a VW here, and hopefully the Golf has not adopted the Jetta's cheapened interior, since they are nearly sister models mainly differing in body style.

You should drive a Veloster and judge the roadgoing characteristics for yourself. It is a new platform with a new engine, so I can't really compare it to any other hyundai product, but on that note, they have had great success with their newer production platforms and drivetrains.

To me, it sounds like you'd be happiest with a Mazda3. Get the 2.5L with any available sport suspension. It will be a good drive. The skyactiv 2.0 (or is it 1.8 now) will give you the great fuel economy you're looking for.

I just can't recommend the new hondas. They're far too expensive for how far they've fallen in recent years. Nothing like the bulletproof, well-refined models of the 90's. The CR-Z is cool though. I like them a lot. I just wouldn't overpay for a new one.

[Woochifer]

Supposedly, Ford is going to be revamping the MyFord touch system for their 2013 models because of the numerous complaints regarding performance, in an article I read on autoblog.

I read that current owners would also get USB sticks in the mail with the software update sometime next year. In general, I'm not a huge fan of touchscreens in cars. Microsoft says that they want to deliver "the Windows experience" everywhere -- yeah, lke I really want that! Just give me some well designed buttons, dials, and displays -- no lag, no crashes, no attention diverted from the road.

The Ford system sounds like a mess, even when working correctly. Having to scroll between different screens just to use different climate control functions is inexcusable. A touchscreen requires more attention, and when it comes to car safety, every split second of distraction is an accident waiting to happen. They really pushed the envelope here.

And compounding Ford's problem is that MyFord Touch has bugs galore. The system has issues with lag and crashes. Even though the system is built on Microsoft's embedded mobile platform, I doubt that Ford (or any other automaker) is going to pony up for a more powerful processor. So, the system's not very responsive to begin, and the software bugs make it prone to freezes. Just what someone needs on a hot day -- getting in the car and finding that the touchscreen that operates the AC has locked up.

On the one hand, I commend them for bringing more advanced features to their smaller cars, like they do overseas. On the other hand, this just seems like techies run amok, trying to cram more checkboxes onto a feature list. Might be okay for smartphones, but downright stupid for cars, where controls and displays need to be designed for easy and quick interactions.


I know the integra interior comment was an exaggeration, but I must just really dislike the build quality of the mazda3 interior. On the other end of the mazda lineup, however, the CX-9 uses far superior materials. Much like the Jetta to the Touareg, it sounds like Mazda pulled a VW here, and hopefully the Golf has not adopted the Jetta's cheapened interior, since they are nearly sister models mainly differing in body style.

Unfortunately, this seems to be pandering to the American market, where small cars are treated like bottomfeeding crap. The Mazda3 interior might not fare as well compared to more expensive cars, but I think within the compact class, the interior is no better or worse than competing models. And unlike some other compact models, they do make a lot of upscale features, like rotating HID headlights and heated leather seats, available to US buyers.

I will agree that VW has been a step above the competition here. In the European market that VW dominates, you don't have to step out of the compact class to get better interior materials and more advanced features. The market sweet spot overseas is the compact class, and buyers over there don't seem to mind paying more for a better equipped small car. Over here the market is more tilted towards the midsize class, once consumers hit a certain price point, the auto makers try to migrate them to a larger car rather a more fully equipped small car.


You should drive a Veloster and judge the roadgoing characteristics for yourself. It is a new platform with a new engine, so I can't really compare it to any other hyundai product, but on that note, they have had great success with their newer production platforms and drivetrains.

I'm going to the auto show in a couple of weeks. I will definitely give the Hyundais a good look. If the Elantra had been available in a hatch, it would be on my list. (The Touring model is a carryover of the lackluster previous version)


To me, it sounds like you'd be happiest with a Mazda3. Get the 2.5L with any available sport suspension. It will be a good drive. The skyactiv 2.0 (or is it 1.8 now) will give you the great fuel economy you're looking for.

Among the compact cars that I've actually driven, the Mazda3 is the one to beat. The 2.5L model is fun (the 2.0 direct injection turbo even more so), but the mileage is mediocre for this class. The Skyactiv drivetrain gains a lot of fuel economy, while losing some peak horsepower. But, it has a very even torque curve, so I'm going to see how well it goes off the line and in highway passing.


I just can't recommend the new hondas. They're far too expensive for how far they've fallen in recent years. Nothing like the bulletproof, well-refined models of the 90's. The CR-Z is cool though. I like them a lot. I just wouldn't overpay for a new one.

Honda used to be the template that everybody else copied. Nowadays it seems that they're just trying to make a better Toyota. In years past, Honda indeed set the bar very high in the compact car class -- they created cars that people who love driving would want to drive. Toyotas have always been commuting appliances that are unengaging but generally reliable. Sad to see Honda's aspirations now following that model, or at least in North America. The overseas Accord is a very different car than the bloated oceanliner that they sell here (the Accord began as a compact car, and now it's officially classified as a large car). It's sold here as the Acura TSX, but unfortunately it carries a luxury car price tag.

The CR-Z is a great design that's just drifting without a rudder -- it's a sporty hybrid two-seater that tries to balance between performance and fuel economy, and does neither particularly well. If Honda would jetison the hybrid drivetrain, and just offer up the CR-Z as either an economical 1.6L model or a sporty 2.0L VTEC model, I think it would do wonders by lightening the load and making a clear distinction about the car's purpose.

Hopefully, the crisis they're in right now with the Civic will spark some of that out-of-the-box thinking that brought Honda to prominence in the first place.

[Poultrygeist]

I have 60,000 trouble free miles on my Mazda3 5 dr hatchback ( 5 sp and 2.3 engine ). It is a joy to drive on twisty mountain roads and my only complaint has been the fact that it's expensive 17 inch performance tires only last around 25K miles.

[Woochifer]

I have 60,000 trouble free miles on my Mazda3 5 dr hatchback ( 5 sp and 2.3 engine ). It is a joy to drive on twisty mountain roads and my only complaint has been the fact that it's expensive 17 inch performance tires only last around 25K miles.

Yeah, that's the same complaint my mom had about her Mazda3, when she had to swap out the tires at 25k miles. That and the gas mileage (she averages around 22 MPG with mostly city driving and the AC on most of the time) are her only gripes about the car. Strange that our Mazda5, which shares the same platform except with a larger and heavier body, has higher fuel mileage (about 25 MPG in mixed driving) and the OEM tires lasted about 50k miles, although they were noisy with not the best roadholding.

The 3's a lot of fun to drive, and very responsive with go-cart-like reflexes. Our 5 is not quite as sporty, but still more maneuverable and tossable than any minivan out there. And the Ford Focus, which shares the same platform, continues to get rave reviews for how it drives. My test drives will begin soon.

[LeRoy]

Hey Wooch,

I just ditched my Audi A4 recently and picked up a Buick La Crosse. Here are some links you might be able to utilize in trying to make your decision:
Japanese cars voted most reliable by huge margin in Consumer Reports survey - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/japanese-cars-voted-reliable-huge-margin-consumer-reports-survey-article-1.968094)

Used Cars, New Cars, Reviews, Photos and Opinions - CarGurus (http://www.cargurus.com/)

Based on your original list my first favorable reaction was for the Honda Fit/Civic.

[Brett A]

Hey there Wooch.

Not sure if you're still shopping, but my wife and i went through a very similar search this fall. We considered many of the same cars you mention. We ended up getting a 2012 Hyundai Accent.

Some highlights:
up to 40mpg
Bluetooth
usb/iPod connectivity
steering wheel audio/phone controls
hatchback
4 wheel discs
anti-lock brakes and traction control
European look and feel to the interior
amazing warentee
$17,050 for a fully loaded SE with 6 speed automatic, alloys, cruise control, XM radio, etc, etc.

here are a few shots of it in our driveway.

The Mini is my car. Steer clear of them if you want reliable/affordable. But there's hardly another choice besides Mini if fun is what you're after.

[Woochifer]

Looks like I've made the decision -- I'm going with the Mazda3. Unless something falls apart on the price quote and the financing, I will take delivery in the next couple of days.

After going to the Auto show, and looking at pricing, features, offers, etc. For my test drives, I essentially wound up with the same three cars that I started with -- the Mazda3, Ford Focus, and VW Golf TDI.

The Mazda3 and Ford Focus are very similar, with each car offering up different tradeoffs. The Golf TDI is a very different car that just went over the budget that my wife and I agreed to.

Here are my overall driving impressions of each car ...

Mazda3
What vaulted the Mazda3 over the top was the new Skyactiv drivetrain, which is remarkable considering that it can deliver up to 40 MPG. This combo has gotten a lot of positive press, and dropping it into an already excellent chassis really decided things for me. And surprisingly, it was the new automatic transmission that floored me.

The engine itself is not a barn burner. It's designed to maximize fuel economy, but it has a very linear powerband. Nothing like the high-revving Integra VTEC I currently drive where the engine is relatively tame until it hits the high RPMs. On passing maneuvers, I thought that it had just enough extra power on tap. It's also much more refined than the previous MZR 2.0/2.3/2.5 engines.

The automatic transmission was a revelation. Having driven sticks most of my life, I never thought I'd opt for an automatic. But, the Skyactiv AT is easily the best automatic I've ever driven. Granted, I don't have a lot of experience with luxury cars or dual clutch trannies, but I've never driven an AT this responsive and flat out fun to take around the curves. I have driven several ATs with manual shift gates, and all of them (including the non-Skyactiv Mazda3) had some sort of lag and disconnect in the responsive. On the test drive, I pulled the 3 into a few hard turns that required two and three-gear downshifts, and the response was as quick as a manual -- very impressive.

As with my previous drives, the Mazda3's strength remains with its handling and all around sure-footedness on the road. Remains much more engaging than the compact Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Kias, and Chevys I've drive in recent years.

The interior is where the Mazda3 has indeed fallen behind the competition a little bit. Nothing wrong other than newer models stepping up their game, and the current Mazda3 now about 3 years old. And things like USB outlets and auto climate control are actually not available with the Skyactiv models.

Just a very odd choice of option packages that go into the Mazda3. If I was wedded to a manual tranny, I might have written off the Mazda because they don't currently offer a sunroof with the Skyactiv engine and a stick shift (my local dealer says that might change, but he won't know for at least another month).

But, in the end the Mazda3 simply had the best balance between performance, features, and price.

Ford Focus
Another compact car that has gotten a lot of buzz. The new version is a huge leap over the previous model. It shares a platform with the Mazda3, so not surprising at all that the Focus is an equally deft handler. Pulling into tight turns, the Focus was

The Focus also has a very well laid out interior. More attractive than the Mazda, with a much wider range of available options. And I would give the Focus the nod on the exterior styling as well.

Where the Focus did not match up quite as well was with the drivetrain. The Focus engine is a little bit rougher than the 3, and in my highway driving, I thought that the power tapped out a bit sooner than the 3. Seemed like it had more bottom end push, but not as linear a powerband. It's actually a very good engine -- better than I recall with the previous Focus. Just not as refined as the Mazda.

The transmissions are also where Ford needs to do a little more work. The manual transmission was only a 5-speed, and it felt like an older design. Longer throw than I'm used to, and a bit mushier than the better manuals I've driven. The Focus' automatic tranny uses a dual clutch design -- very advanced for this class/price point. While it shifts very quickly, and is very responsive in the manual mode, the Focus' AT lurches at low speeds.

I know that Ford's dual clutch trannys have been knocked for purported reliability issues, but I can't help thinking that a lot of people equate this lurching to a mechanical failure. Supposedly, Ford is doing some software recalibration to try and fix this issue, but it's very noticeable in city driving.

Basically, the tradeoffs between the Focus and Mazda3 come down to the drivetrain versus the interior options. The Mazda3 offers up a more refined engine and tranny, but limits a lot of choices with the options if you go with the Skyactiv model. The Ford Focus is rougher around the edges with the drivetrain, but has a huge list of available technology options and an attractive price.

VW Golf TDI
First time I've driven a diesel in about 20 years, and I must say this is nothing like my previous experiences. The Golf is a mightily impressive car all the way around. Another great handling compact car, it probably holds the turns a little tighter than the 3 and Focus, but it has a slightly rougher ride.

But, the really story is the diesel engine. Like the reviews have indicated, the Golf TDI has gobs of torque and has a very quick pick up when you punch the pedal. I actually spun the wheels a couple of times. Some of the reviews indicated that the TDI engine starts to give out above 4,000 RPM, but I did not notice this at all. I thought there was plenty of power on tap for any number of situations, especially passing.

I drove the manual. It's a 6-speed and I did not have any impression of it one way or another. It feels better than the Focus manual, but it's not one of the better manuals I've driven. I was hoping to try the AT (which is also a dual clutch design), but the dealer did not have any.

The interior is also very sharp and tastefully done. The model I test drove had a touch screen, but it was not excessively done like the Focus' optional MyFordTouch screen. But, as with my other experiences with VWs, there are a lot of oddities with how certain things operate (I wound up with a signal light that wouldn't turn off because of how I made a gear change).

Where the VW Golf TDI faltered was with the price. It costs about $4k more than the gas engined Golf, and about $6k more than the Mazda3 and Focus when optioned up for a sunroof (requires the nav package). I also saw that their technology package includes a Dynaudio audio system -- very tempting, but not with a list price pushing $29k. Even with a very attractive offer from the dealer, it went outside of our price range. The dealer told me that the TDI manuals are actually easier to get a deal on, as the automatics are mostly sold at or above MSRP.

[Woochifer]

Hey there Wooch.

Not sure if you're still shopping, but my wife and i went through a very similar search this fall. We considered many of the same cars you mention. We ended up getting a 2012 Hyundai Accent.

Some highlights:
up to 40mpg
Bluetooth
usb/iPod connectivity
steering wheel audio/phone controls
hatchback
4 wheel discs
anti-lock brakes and traction control
European look and feel to the interior
amazing warentee
$17,050 for a fully loaded SE with 6 speed automatic, alloys, cruise control, XM radio, etc, etc.

here are a few shots of it in our driveway.

The Mini is my car. Steer clear of them if you want reliable/affordable. But there's hardly another choice besides Mini if fun is what you're after.

The Accent was a bit smaller than I was looking for, otherwise I would have definitely looked at it. I would have also considered the Elantra, but it was not available as a hatch. I looked at the Veloster as well, but sitting in it at the Auto Show, it seemed smaller than I wanted as well.

I do like the Minis as well, but again, just a little smaller than I wanted.

[RGA]

Unfortunately the Lemon Aid guide is not sold in the U.S. but if you visit Canada go to chapters and buy the book. They are not homers to brands and it's based on actual repair history and they give you the real gas mileage.

I would add the Hyundai Elantra Touring model. This is ranked number one (along with the regular version) as the most reliable car on the market. It did well on every other parameter as well. Supposedly German engineered (not that that is worth much since the Lemon Aid pretty much rips Mercedes and B&W for reliability.

It's not all that flashy; however, it does have some nicer interior aspects due to it's Euro design. Review: 2009 Hyundai Elantra Touring (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/04/review-2009-hyundai-elantra-touring/)

Review: 2010 Hyundai Elantra Touring | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/08/review-2010-hyundai-elantra-touring/)

[Brett A]

Looks like I've made the decision -- I'm going with the Mazda3.
Nice. I'm sure you'll be happy and thanks for taking the time to do the write up of the other contenders!


I would add the Hyundai Elantra Touring model. This is ranked number one (along with the regular version) as the most reliable car on the market. It did well on every other parameter as well.

My wife and i went to the Hyundai dealership specifically to drive an Elantra Touring and ended up with the Accent.

The thing that really surprised me about the Touring was how much road noise was present. It left me a little incredulous as to how they could go through all the cost and trouble to build a car and not put a sufficient amount of sound insulation between the road and cabin. (We also found the Honda Insight to be very loud inside and rather cheap feeling). The 2012 Accent rides much quieter.

(I measured all the cars we drove with an SPL meter, so it's not just a subjective report)

[Woochifer]

I would add the Hyundai Elantra Touring model. This is ranked number one (along with the regular version) as the most reliable car on the market. It did well on every other parameter as well. Supposedly German engineered (not that that is worth much since the Lemon Aid pretty much rips Mercedes and B&W for reliability.

Problem with the Touring model is that it carries over the previous Elantra design, which I found to be a colossal bore to drive. What good is reliability if the drive puts me to sleep? Supposedly, the new Elantra is a big step up in performance, but I did not consider it for my purchase because it's not available in a hatchback.

German cars are generally not as reliable because they tend to live on the technological edge. Things like direct injection, dual clutch transmissions, and touch controls were brought to market first by the German manufacturers. Huge leaps forward in performance, but as with any brand new technology, there are bound to be bugs. I know you like to knock German engineering, but for the driving experience, something like a BMW is hard to beat.

And in the case of the Mazda3, its platform was also engineered in Germany at Ford's design center in Cologne (Ford Europe, Ford North America, Mazda, and Volvo each sent engineering teams to Germany, where they worked for two years to design the C1 platform). Reliability record has been excellent, and it doesn't perform like it's on Nyquil.

A CR article this year also found a big correlation between the age of a car design and its reliability. Generally, an older design will be about 15% more reliable than a newly revised model. But, older models also tend to go into a precipitous sales slide beginning about their 3rd year (just when the reliability shows big improvements).

Mazda rose to the top 5 in both the JD Power and Consumer Reports reliability rankings this year, but a lot of that is attributable to the simple fact that Mazda did not have introduce any new models in 2011. I actually expect them to drop this year because they are introducing two new models and an entirely new drivetrain. Conversely, Ford's drop from #5 to #22 this year is almost entirely due to their new touch screen controls and dual clutch transmissions. (And as I mentioned, I think at least some of the rancor over Ford's dual clutch transmission is because consumers aren't aware of how differently a dual clutch design operates.)

Car companies can also go conservative and not change much, but that stung Honda in a huge way when their tepid Civic revision got slammed by auto reviewers and continued to show sales losses.

Hyundai took a big gamble by letting their California design center (it was designed in Cali BTW) loose on the new Elantra, and that has paid off for them. And their manufacturing processes have indeed resulted in big gains in product reliability.

But, before we go anointing Hyundai for halo status, they did get called out recently for fudging their fuel mileage claims on the Elantra. (Various auto enthusiast forums have been calling out Hyundai for months on this issue) Hyundai has made the 40 MPG claim the centerpiece of their marketing, and consumers have responded in a huge way. Right now, Hyundai and Mazda are the only companies that can claim 40 MPG on a stock compact sedan (rather than special high mileage versions with tweaked aerodynamics, tall transmission gearing, and/or low resistance/performance tires). If Hyundai is forced to retract their fuel mileage claim (keep in mind that the EPA does not test every car, and relies on manufacturers' tests for 4 out of every 5 mileage ratings), that would be a black eye that you know every other manufacturer will pounce on in a hurry.

Consumer Watchdog Urges EPA to Re-Test Elantra 40 MPG Claim, Hold Hyundai to Account | Consumer Watchdog (http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/newsrelease/consumer-watchdog-urges-epa-re-test-elantra-40-mpg-claim-hold-hyundai-account)

And some industry insiders are seeing signs of "big car company syndrome" at Hyundai (i.e., the hubris, greed, and shift from product focus to profit and volume focus that brought GM and Toyota back down to earth). The next few years will be interesting to see if Hyundai can maintain that edge and product focus that they have developed over the last few years, or if they're going to dumb down their products in pursuit of market share and profits.

[Woochifer]

Here's the new ride!

http://images.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/musa2/images/shop/common/models/2012/glory/m3h/img_glory_m3hitr_ext_graphite.jpg

So far, I'm enjoying the drive. The car is still in the break-in period, so I've not done a lot of hard accelerations or cornering yet (just one accidental run up to the redline when I had the transmission stuck in 1st gear in manual mode).

On the first tank, the trip computer is showing 34 MPG, with a lot of city driving and accelerating/decelerating cycles for drivetrain break-in.

The negotiated price on the car came out to about $20,300 (before tax, title, etc.), and the sticker price was $21,995.

In order to get the sunroof, I had to opt for a $1,400 option package that also included the dreaded Bose Centerpoint audio system. Bose's car audio systems cause every bit as much controversy on the car audio forums as they do with their home audio products here. Basically, the quality of the Bose systems can vary a lot from model to model, and I've been less than impressed with most them, especially considering the cost.

Ideally, I would have just gone with the factory head unit, and added my own amps and speakers later. So, I was bracing for impact, especially after I saw how the system came with 10 speakers, and a wild almost disjointed array of different speaker sizes (two 1" high mounted tweeters, one 3.25" center speaker, two 6.5" door speakers, two 5.25" door speakers, two rear mounted 3.25" mid/tweeters, and a 9" subwoofer mounted in the spare tire).

http://www.who-sells-it.com/images/catalogs/784/23378/ct/2011-mazda3-000007.jpg

To my surprise, the system sounds fairly decent -- better than most of the other Bose car audio systems I've heard over the years. Like so many other car audio systems I've heard, it's a little bit bottom heavy, but not excessive like some of the others. The midrange is better than average and there aren't a lot of gigantic peaks and valleys in the frequency range.

The trunk-mounted subwoofer is an interesting design because it's mounted onto the spare tire. The same design was used in the Acura RSX, and not surprisingly, that was the other Bose car system that I thought sounded pretty good.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/images/Bose_Cntrpnt_Bass_Module.JPG

Of course, as with so many other purported Bose innovations, the system also has some gimmicky processing schemes with fancy trademarked names. The system actually sounds best with all of the processing turned off. The Centerpoint surround mode basically does the same thing as a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder, by creating a pseudo 5.1 effect with a two-channel source. The system uses a 3.25" center speaker, mounted on the dashboard above the center vents, facing straight up. Needless to say it timbre matches horribly with the L/R speakers, and it's apparent with the Centerpoint mode steering much of the sound into the center. The Centerpoint mode creates some ambient cues, but it also narrows the soundstage and muddies up the overall sound.

Another Bose car audio feature is the Audiopilot2 mode, which is Bose's version of noise compensation. Most other car audio systems with this feature will vary the level according to the car's speed. The Audiopilot mode uses a high mounted microphone to measure the ambient noise, and supposedly varies the level and also applies EQ. I say supposedly, because I have yet to notice much difference in the sound with the Audiopilot engaged. Definitely not as noticeable or effective as the more conventional speed-based level adjustment. The only potential effect is some strange phase shifting with a couple of MP3s. I've not done enough critical listening to really see if Audiopilot causes this or what benefit the feature has, but I'm leaning towards leaving it turned off as well.

It's too bad that Bose has to keep on touting these gimmicky processing features, because the audio system by itself is pretty good.

BTW, some other reviewers apparently agree with my assessment of the audio system. Edmunds' comparison test actually ranked the Mazda3's Bose system higher than competing factory-installed systems from Harmon/Kardon, Dynaudio, JBL, Alpine, and Rockford Fosgate.

Positive Feedback: Issue 55 - Bose Centerpoint Car Audio System (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/bose.htm)
2010 Mazdaspeed 3: Audio Review (http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/09/2010-mazdaspeed-3-audio-review.html)
Comparison Test of Six Budget Premium Audio Systems - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/comparison-test-of-six-budget-premium-audio-systems.html)

The option package was $1,400, and on other cars, the sunroof as a standalone option will generally cost $800 to $1,000+. So, I essentially paid at least $400 for the premium audio upgrade. Compared to the base audio unit on our Mazda5, the Bose system is a definite step up. And it might cost about that much for a decent system upgrade to begin with.

[blackraven]

Congrat's on the new car! Enjoy the ride! I have always liked the Mazda 3. I have owned 4 Mazda's in the past. Never had any major problems with them- 2 1980's Mazda 626's and 2 MPV's.

[Woochifer]

First trip to the gas station! I'm now 351 miles in.

My average fuel economy came out to 33.0 MPG. Very impressive considering that I'm deliberately doing a lot of city driving and acceleration/deceleration cycles for breaking in the drivetrain.

[Woochifer]

Congrat's on the new car! Enjoy the ride! I have always liked the Mazda 3. I have owned 4 Mazda's in the past. Never had any major problems with them- 2 1980's Mazda 626's and 2 MPV's.

Thanks! I think we're now officially a Mazda family. Both of our cars are now Mazdas, plus my mom drives a 2009 Mazda3 and my dad used to drive a Mazda MPV.

[RGA]

FWIW the Mazda 3 and Elantra were the only cars in the class to get 5/5 stars.

The Elantra 2012 just won car of the year. Hyundai Elantra is 'Car of the Year' (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2012-01-09/hyundai-elantra-wins/52463788/1)

The Hyundai Elantra comes in a hatchback - it's called the Touring. They have a new 2012 model as well.

They've come along way since the laughable Pony. My friend has the Accent - nice little car if a bit go-cart in feel.

I like the looks of the Mazda the best in this class though - it looks more like a sports car.

[Woochifer]

FWIW the Mazda 3 and Elantra were the only cars in the class to get 5/5 stars.

The Elantra 2012 just won car of the year. Hyundai Elantra is 'Car of the Year' (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2012-01-09/hyundai-elantra-wins/52463788/1)

The Hyundai Elantra comes in a hatchback - it's called the Touring. They have a new 2012 model as well.

They've come along way since the laughable Pony. My friend has the Accent - nice little car if a bit go-cart in feel.

I like the looks of the Mazda the best in this class though - it looks more like a sports car.

That would depend obviously on who's writing the review! The Ford Focus and VW Golf offer comparable driving dynamics to the Mazda3 (which shares its underpinnings with the Focus), and are superior to the Mazda in some areas, especially with the interior.

Unfortunately for Hyundai (and for me, I guess), they chose to carry over the previous Touring model. I'd driven the last generation Elantra as a rental, and did not like it at all. Felt too much like someone at Hyundai put a Toyota Corolla on a pedestal and said, "Copy this!"

The current generation is a clean break from Toyota both in styling and supposedly driving dynamics as well. It was a risky move for Hyundai, but it seems to have paid off. Alas, it's only available in the U.S. as a sedan.

[LeRoy]

Wooch, congrats on the new ride. You did a lot of great research on the contending models and I think you choose wisely.

[RGA]

Unfortunately for Hyundai (and for me, I guess), they chose to carry over the previous Touring model. I'd driven the last generation Elantra as a rental, and did not like it at all. Felt too much like someone at Hyundai put a Toyota Corolla on a pedestal and said, "Copy this!"

The current generation is a clean break from Toyota both in styling and supposedly driving dynamics as well. It was a risky move for Hyundai, but it seems to have paid off. Alas, it's only available in the U.S. as a sedan.

You're not far off - about 10 years ago Hyundai hired all the top engineers away from Toyota and Hyundai's reliability greatly improved and Toyota fell into the toilet.

Hyundai I think wanted to tackle reliability first - it's what made the Japanese basically destroy the American car makers who sold complete caca in the reliability department.

The 5/5 rating comes from the Lemon Aid - which is based on actual repair records, survey reports - Phil Edmonston is the Ralph Nadar of the car industry. He was talking about the sudden surges in Toyota cars well before(several years before) it cam to light.

Lemon-Aid author talks tough about buying cars | Wheels.ca (http://www.wheels.ca/News%20and%20Features/article/785894)

[Woochifer]

You're not far off - about 10 years ago Hyundai hired all the top engineers away from Toyota and Hyundai's reliability greatly improved and Toyota fell into the toilet.

"All the top engineers"? C'mon, I know you're a fan of Kia/Hyundai, but I would have to assume that's a rather exaggerated view. Toyota's a huge company and their car development is done by teams all over the world. Are you saying that all of Toyota's top engineers from around the world not only quit the company, but went to work for a Korean rival?

Remember Toyota stopped being Toyota well before 10 years ago. It was nearly two decades ago when they began decontenting their vehicles, using more common parts between different models, and designing their cars around profitability and price targets. This is how most other car companies design their vehicles, and Toyota simply applied those types of cost cutting and streamlining methods when they decided to make profit growth and becoming the #1 car company in the world their primary goals.

The Toyota Way, as it existed until the mid-90s, relied on a very close knit relationship between the management, engineering teams, production line workers, and suppliers. But, this type of tight collaboration could not keep up with Toyota's explosive growth and mushrooming number of geographically dispersed plant locations. So, they had a choice to either stay a smaller car company focused on product and engineering goals, or a profit and volume-driven car company with the stated goal of becoming the world's #1 volume car maker. They chose the latter.

Toyota's reliability didn't fall into the toilet. The quality control systems at their plants and engineering resources still rank among the best in the world, and the cars themselves are still in the upper reliability tier. But, they no longer fanatically overengineer their cars, and Toyota simply fell back in line with the rest of the industry. But, falling back towards the industry average is not how Toyota built their reputation. If not for the green halo that they wear thanks to the Prius, Toyota right now would be just another car company that makes boring commuting appliances with above average reliability (rather than exceptional reliability).

And if you check JD Power's latest IQS results, Hyundai this year fell below the industry average, two years after they ranked as the #1 non-luxury brand. As I wrote in an earlier post, Consumer Reports found that the reliability will often correlate with the time elapsed since the last model revision, and it's no surprise that Hyundai dropped in the rankings in a model year where they had three new models introduced, along with a brand new drivetrain.

There's a big difference between the ambition to be a big car company versus becoming the #1 car company. The hubris and arrogance underlying that kind of ambition ultimately undid GM, and it brought Toyota back to earth. VW now has its sights on becoming the #1 car company in the world, and their new decontented cars show they are chasing after volume and profit, rather than focusing on the driving experience and product quality. Right now, maintaining their product focus is the challenge facing Hyundai as they grow as a car company.


Hyundai I think wanted to tackle reliability first - it's what made the Japanese basically destroy the American car makers who sold complete caca in the reliability department.

That's probably the best place to start. Over the past decade, Hyundai has made all the right moves, but they also need to resist the temptation to overreach, as some industry observers have accused them of doing (i.e., their 40 MPG claims that have come under scrutiny from Consumer Watchdog, which was founded by Harvey Rosenfeld, one of Ralph Nader's former deputies). They've begun loading up their cars with all sorts of tech gadgets. Might look good on a checklist, and attract more interest from younger car buyers. But, larding up a car with crapulent (one of topspeed's favorite terms) tech features is also a very quick way to send the reliability rating into a nosedive, as evidenced by Ford's tumble in the reliability rankings and even Hyundai now dropping below the industry average. This is something that the Toyota of old would have never done.


The 5/5 rating comes from the Lemon Aid - which is based on actual repair records, survey reports - Phil Edmonston is the Ralph Nadar of the car industry.

Lemon-Aid author talks tough about buying cars | Wheels.ca (http://www.wheels.ca/News%20and%20Features/article/785894)

I know you keep pushing the Lemon Aid guide, but when I looked at it a few years ago, I recall that it relies entirely on secondary data sources such as service bulletins and recalls, along with some selected anecdotal quotes from readers. And I'm skeptical of using those sources as a reliability barometer, because there's no consistency with how or when service bulletins and recalls are issued. It's very useful for informing the public on potential problem areas on specific car models or manufacturers, but poor for drawing comparative conclusions about different car companies.

Unlike JD Power, Consumer Reports, and True Delta, Lemon Aid does not conduct its own reliability survey, which means that it does not have a consistent database to draw apples to apples conclusions between different models. Yes, all of those surveys have their own issues, but at least the conclusions are drawn from comparable data and large sample sizes.


He was talking about the sudden surges in Toyota cars well before(several years before) it cam to light.

And on Toyota's sudden acceleration recalls, my opinion has basically been that 1) the majority of the sudden accelerations resulted from driver error; and 2) Toyota rushed their drive-by-wire systems to market as part of their massive decontenting and cost cutting program, and they got caught in the same first-to-market reliability issues that are normally associated with German car makers.

On point 1, drivers can alleviate sudden acceleration by simply shifting the car into neutral. At the risk of stereotyping, IMO Toyota attracts a lower percentage of the enthusiast drivers that would know this. Their clientele will tend to be people who don't care as much about the driving experience itself, but simply want a reliable appliance that takes them from point A to point B. Also, Toyota drivers are far likelier to opt for automatic transmissions than buyers of competing models, and thus likelier to encounter sudden acceleration, since it's a non-issue with a manual transmission.

With that said, the manner in which Toyota widely deployed drive-by-wire systems in a very short time goes squarely against the revered Toyota Way. They introduced their electronic throttle and ignition systems before competitors did, and installed them in nearly all of their best selling models very quickly.

In decades past, Toyota was fine with letting the competition go to market first with newer technologies, and have them deal with fixing the bugs. But, replacing two mechanical systems with one electronic system in this case also saved money and fit in perfectly with their new-found decontenting ethos where they were trying to reduce the number of unique parts and systems in their cars.

In actuality, electronic throttle and ignition systems are far more reliable than the older mechanical designs. The problem is that a failure on an integrated electronic system is more serious, and by combining the ignition with the throttle controls, Toyota provided a single point of failure for what used to be two separate systems. Sudden acceleration also occurs with older cable throttle linkages, but it's a somewhat easier recovery with a stuck accelerator pedal than a failed electronic throttle control.

One of the mainstream science magazines (forget which one) found that Toyota's electronic control units were installed without EMI shielding, and speculated that made the system more vulnerable to seemingly random failure. That also potentially explains why tests by the federal govt and Stanford University were unable to replicate the Toyota sudden acceleration issue, since I don't think they ever tested EM interference (the much publicized SIU test that created sudden acceleration in the lab was done under conditions very unlikely to occur in real life). Other car companies have been more deliberate about deploying drive-by-wire systems, and likely learned from Toyota's mistakes, in much the same way that Toyota used to do with them.

[RGA]

Just to be clear - I am not a fan of any car company. I like the fact that Hyundai has stepped it up but I have never owned one and with luck I never will.

The lemon aid is model specific but I don't see that as a problem since I am not a "fan" of looking at the company - If I plan to buy a given kind of compact car - then I could care less if the company builds a great truck or a lousy truck - or for that matter whether they build a truck at all. I want comparisons on the long term (not IQS) of the vehicle - the short term ownership is protected under warranty so it would be less important how it does during the first 18 months. Most cars survive the early going - it's in year 6 out of the warranty that I wand to know about - and it's usually here where the American cars with their golden IQS suck the big one.

As for Hyundai and engineers - I did not check this information - it was from a mechanic (no affiliation with and non Korean car owner) . Korea is very close to Japan - not much of a commute - couple hours by boat ride from Fukuoka. Looking it up - it might be a little semi-theft that helped Hyundai Hyundai might have Stolen Toyota Corporate "Secrets" - Motor Trend The General Forum Forum (http://forums.motortrend.com/70/1068746/the-general-forum/hyundai-might-have-stolen-toyota-corporate-secrets/index.html)

[Woochifer]

Just to be clear - I am not a fan of any car company. I like the fact that Hyundai has stepped it up but I have never owned one and with luck I never will.

The lemon aid is model specific but I don't see that as a problem since I am not a "fan" of looking at the company - If I plan to buy a given kind of compact car - then I could care less if the company builds a great truck or a lousy truck - or for that matter whether they build a truck at all. I want comparisons on the long term (not IQS) of the vehicle - the short term ownership is protected under warranty so it would be less important how it does during the first 18 months.

The IQS is actually a very good predictor of long-term reliability. Issues with the drivetrain and specific components will begin to show up within the first year of ownership. Issues that come up early are likelier to continue cropping up as a group of vehicles ages. Since Lemon Aid only bases its conclusions on anecdotal repair reports, it has no real data on true reliability rates.

Historically, Toyota and Honda have been loathe to issue recalls on their cars, opting instead to issue service bulletins. It's that unwillingness to do a recall that ultimately cost Toyota dearly. American car companies are less hesitant to issuing recalls, even though they know the PR hit that they will take. And different car companies have different policies as to when/if they issue a service bulletin or a recall. That's why you can't read into this and draw conclusions between different car companies and car models.


Most cars survive the early going - it's in year 6 out of the warranty that I wand to know about - and it's usually here where the American cars with their golden IQS suck the big one.

Unless you're buying a used car, knowing something about the reliability of a 6 year old car says nothing about a current model that's selling at a dealership brand new. For one thing, most car models undergo substantial changes within a 6-year timeframe that render info from that long ago meaningless. As indicated in that Consumer Reports post from last year, the reliability of a car model will generally increase as it goes through its production cycle. The ~15% variance that Consumer Reports observed between a car model in its 1st year versus one in its 4th year is actually wide enough to represent the difference between landing in the top 10 versus the bottom 10.

The 1999 Ford Focus (its first production year) was by all accounts an unreliable car. But, that says absolutely nothing about later model years, where the Focus became an above average reliability car. The revised Focus came out last year, and issues with the touch screens and dual clutch transmissions have already been reported. But, that doesn't say anything about how the newer Focus models will perform (touchscreen issues are relatively easy to fix, and a software update has already been issued), nor anything about how the car will perform as it goes through its current production cycle.

[Woochifer]

Looks like the compact hatchback club will gain another new member. For all of the Hyundai recommendations on this thread, I didn't give them much of a look, because I wanted a hatchback and the Elantra Touring wagon was a carryover of the previous model, which I did not like.

Lo and behold, Hyundai is now set to debut the two-door coupe and five-door hatchback versions of the Elantra. This looks like a seriously competitive car for this class. Depending on how Hyundai prices the Hyundai GT hatchback, it could really challenge the Focus, Mazda3, Impreza, and Golf. As one of the other enthusiast sites said, the compact hatchbacks now available in the U.S. have never been better.

2013 Hyundai Elantra GT delivers lightness, functionality (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/08/2013-hyundai-elantra-gt-chicago-2012/)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/02/hyundai-elantra-gt-chicago.jpg

In terms of styling, I generally like lines on the Elantra GT, but the proportions look a bit stubby in the back (but they increased the interior space by making the car taller, which probably gives it those slightly awkward looking proportions). The interior though looks great.

http://cdn.automoblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/172013hyundaielantragt-623x414.jpg

The bottomline on the Elantra GT is that it's nearly a foot shorter than the Focus, Mazda3, and Impreza, and a few inches longer than the Golf. However, it has more interior space than all of them. While the Elantra GT has a less powerful engine, it also weighs less than all of them and ties the Mazda3 Skyactiv for the highest EPA fuel economy.

What remains to be seen is how the car performs, and how the fuel economy measures up in real world driving. And the new hatchback is much smaller than the current Elantra Touring wagon, and it looks like Hyundai will not bring the wagon back.

Like the Focus, Hyundai loaded the car with technology features, which has its benefits and drawbacks. The benefit obviously is that the manufacturer can wow the customers with a long list of standard features and eye-popping technology. The disadvantage is that these cutting edge features can be frustrating to operate while driving, and they tend to be very buggy.

Ford's experience with loading up its newer models with technology gadgets led to a big drop in its reliability ranking. And Hyundai, which debuted many of these features on other models, has seen its reliability ranking drop as well (in the latest JD Power IQS ranking, Hyundai is now below the industry average, after rating #1 among non-luxury brands just two years ago).

The reliance on gadgetry was one reason I wound up not going with the Focus (base models are available, but in order to get options that I wanted, most of those cars I saw also came with the bug-ridden tech features that I did not want).

Seeing Hyundai seeming to hit its stride is now a glaring contrast to how far behind Honda has fallen. The new dumbed-down Civic is still selling well, but how much longer can they continue pumping out bland and unimaginative cars before their sales do start to decline as other manufacturers continue to raise the bar and aggressively try to one up each other.

[Feanor]

That's certainly an appealing hatch back, though as you say, objective evaluations are still pending.

Hatchbacks in this league are a bit small for our needs, though. I'm still very inclined to the Mazda5 later this year IF I can get a good deal with some kind of trade for my old Taurus wagon.

Chevrolet has come out with the 'Orlando', obviously intended to compete with the Mazda5. I await reports; if they are good and the Orlando is cheaper than the Mazda5, I might consider the Orlando.

http://www.gm.ca/images/vehicles/2012/chevrolet/orlando/chev_orla_ext_ph_big_01.jpg

As I recall Ford was also planning an apparent Mazda5 competitor, the C-Max but it isn't available yet, at least not in Canada.

[Woochifer]

That's certainly an appealing hatch back, though as you say, objective evaluations are still pending.

Hatchbacks in this league are a bit small for our needs, though. I'm still very inclined to the Mazda5 later this year IF I can get a good deal with some kind of trade for my old Taurus wagon.

Chevrolet has come out with the 'Orlando', obviously intended to compete with the Mazda5. I await reports; if they are good and the Orlando is cheaper than the Mazda5, I might consider the Orlando.

Unfortunately, GM opted not to bring the Orlando to the U.S. Kia also stopped importing the Kia Rondo to the U.S., but continues to make it available in Canada. I guess the market for MPV/space wagons is stronger in Canada.



As I recall Ford was also planning an apparent Mazda5 competitor, the C-Max but it isn't available yet, at least not in Canada.

Ford is still on track to bring the C-MAX to all of North America. Unfortunately, they will not bring over the larger 7-passenger version, and apparently, Ford will only sell the 5-passenger C-MAX with a hybrid or plug-in drivetrain -- no conventional gas-powered drivetrains available at all. Given how hybrid sales have nosedived over the past year, this is not a good sign. From what I see, Ford is now looking at the C-MAX as its version of a halo vehicle -- a niche product to burnish its green credentials (and presumably boost its CAFE rating) and serve as a test platform for its EV drivetrain, rather than a product to market and sell to the masses.

Car and Driver Blog » Ford Cancels 7-Passenger C-Max for U.S., Will Sell Only 5-Seat Hybrid and Plug-In Models (http://blog.caranddriver.com/ford-cancels-7-passenger-c-max-for-u-s-will-sell-only-5-seat-hybrid-and-plug-in-models/)

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/2012-Ford-C-MAX-hybrid-626x382.jpg

In Europe and Asia, MPVs are huge sellers, so Ford sells the C-MAX in those markets like any other conventional car. Since MPVs are almost viewed as an alien species in the U.S., I guess Ford did not want to do the heavy lifting to seed the market for a MPV-type car. So, they have relegated the C-MAX to the green ghetto, because it's a "unique" design (to U.S. buyers at least) that they can tout as their green car.

And in some ways they are right. The only runaway success among hybrids in the U.S. has been the Toyota Prius, which has a unique and immediately identifiable design. This appeals to those buyers who are trying to make a statement with their car purchase (no different than the image statement that a lot of SUV buyers have been making). Sales for all of the hybrids that simply drop a hybrid drivetrain into an existing car design have been miserable and dropping fast. For all of the attention that hybrids get, their numbers are only a drop in the bucket.

It's really too bad that no one seems willing to do a concerted marketing and sales campaign to establish a mainstream market for MPVs. The Mazda5 has the U.S. MPV market to itself, but still does virtually no marketing and advertising for that. And Mazda deliberately limits the number of Mazda5s that they import to North America in order to reserve more units for the more established European and Asian markets. What would the market look like if MPVs like the Mazda5, Rondo, Orlando, and C-MAX received the same types of the megadollar ad campaigns that helped fuel the SUV craze in the 1990s? Of course, practicality and "just right" austerity don't make for the same kind of sexy marketing pitch as the whole rugged outdoorsy "freedom" image making that accompanied the SUV commercials (who cares if it's really a minivan/station wagon in drag -- it can go off-road, even if it never does).

[Feanor]

Looks like the C-Max (in Canada) will be available as as a hybrid or an electric. Neither of these is of interest to me since the extra cost of these types is too high to justify based on the mileage we do.

I so see plenty of Mazda5's on the road here southern Ontario. I'm surprised the Orlando won't be available in the 'States, as I was that the Rondo isn't. I seems Canadians are more inclined to smaller and cheaper vehicles. I don't thing Canadians are more environment-conscious; it's just that Canadians have a bit less disposable income and face higher vehicle prices+taxes and higher taxes of fuel. Yes! you can influence public purchasing habits using tax policies.

[Woochifer]

Looks like the C-Max (in Canada) will be available as as a hybrid or an electric. Neither of these is of interest to me since the extra cost of these types is too high to justify based on the mileage we do.

Yep, no conventional gas-powered drivetrain for the C-MAX at all in North America. Responses like yours are exactly why I think Ford is shooting itself in the foot by limiting the C-MAX to the green market.

Ford is trying to position the C-MAX as a standalone eco car in North America. They figure that because the Prius sells like crazy, while using a separate and distinct body style, they could do the same thing with the C-MAX. Never mind that the C-MAX is just another gas-powered MPV in Europe and Asia, and that Honda's CR-Z and Insight models (both of which have their own distinct body styles and sold only as hybrids) are flops.

I would have preferred to see Ford offer the C-MAX as a mainstream volume car (i.e., with a gas engine, and with a full range of options), and back it up with a marketing and sales campaign befitting that type of vehicle. If it flops, then so be it. But, at least make an honest effort to establish a market for that type of car in North America. There have got to be others like myself that are frustrated with the lack of alternatives to the 3-box sedan/minivan/SUV troika that currently dominates the U.S. car market.

I know that Ford is also planning to make hybrid and plug-in drivetrains available with the Focus and Fusion. But, as I mentioned already, hybrids based on existing car designs have mostly flopped. Ford seems to assume here that limiting the C-MAX to hybrid/plug-in drivetrains will actually help the C-MAX's sales potential by giving it a green halo. Problem with this assumption is that the Prius represents the only big hybrid success story and other hybrid-only cars have flopped.

[recoveryone]

All this car talk Woo, I think you jinx me, my old SVT Contour is limping along now and I too am in the market for a replacement now. Unlike you I'm not concern with green so I have narrow my choices to the players below:

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/recoveryone1/crossfire.jpg

05 Chrysler Crossfire SRT 6, A Mercedes in Chrysler clothing @ 330 HP

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/recoveryone1/C230.jpg

05 Mercedes C230 Kompressor, Sport feel with 4 doors like my old SVT.

[Woochifer]

All this car talk Woo, I think you jinx me, my old SVT Contour is limping along now and I too am in the market for a replacement now. Unlike you I'm not concern with green so I have narrow my choices to the players below:

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/recoveryone1/crossfire.jpg

05 Chrysler Crossfire SRT 6, A Mercedes in Chrysler clothing @ 330 HP

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/recoveryone1/C230.jpg

05 Mercedes C230 Kompressor, Sport feel with 4 doors like my old SVT.

Yeah, I think we might have the same mechanic doing all this behind the scenes.

I'm kinda surprised that with you being a Ford guy, you're not looking at the Focus ST. When I went to L.A. Auto Show, that car and the Shelby GT500 were the big headliners.

Of course, these seem like a higher trim level as well, so it seems that you want some more luxo goods to go with the ponies. The Crossfire seems like the more unique drive, particularly if you can find one with that street racer engine under the hood. Strange as it seems now, Chrysler had a pretty good product focus at that time. Too bad, that focus was only sustained on a few models. Things fell apart not too long afterwards.

Like I said, if this were a few years ago, I'd be looking at the hot hatches like the GTI and Mazdaspeed3. I'm coming over from an Acura Integra GS-R, so I am used to a certain level of sportiness in my daily drive. But, with a preschooler and changes in our priorities, fuel economy and emissions became more of a consideration. Fortunately, the current compact hatchback options include a few models that balance the fuel economy and performance considerations very well.

[recoveryone]

I stopped by CarMax last night and took a look at the Crossfire they had, If not for the rain and cold air, I would have spent more time poking around, but the wife kept saying how cold she was. It was a good oportunity to take a quick look and not be bog down in saleman BS......."just had another customer ready to buy". I think I threw him by telling him I knew there was another one at the Orange County store with only a few more miles on it. lol

As for ford, I not soley a ford man, but more of being seen driving something most people don't see often. the fummy part is that some of my past vehicles have had Ford infulance, Volvo's 760's Mazda Rx7 and my SVT Contour.

[Woochifer]

I stopped by CarMax last night and took a look at the Crossfire they had, If not for the rain and cold air, I would have spent more time poking around, but the wife kept saying how cold she was. It was a good oportunity to take a quick look and not be bog down in saleman BS......."just had another customer ready to buy". I think I threw him by telling him I knew there was another one at the Orange County store with only a few more miles on it. lol

As for ford, I not soley a ford man, but more of being seen driving something most people don't see often. the fummy part is that some of my past vehicles have had Ford infulance, Volvo's 760's Mazda Rx7 and my SVT Contour.

Yeah, I get the impression that the Crossfire kinda flew under the radar. It uses a Daimler chassis and obviously you're looking at the high performance engine that they bolted onto that car later on. Chrysler at least was trying to make interesting cars at that time.

IIRC, the Crossfire and the even more radically designed Prowler roadster (see below) both came out of Chrysler's California design center in La Jolla.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/%2701-%2702_Chrysler_Prowler_%28Orange_Julep%29.JPG/800px-%2701-%2702_Chrysler_Prowler_%28Orange_Julep%29.JPG

But, when the private equity leeches took over Chrysler, one of the first things they did was shutter the La Jolla facility. Compare that move to Hyundai basically turning their California design center loose on the new Elantra.

BTW, I read that the 2.3L turbo Mustang might be making a comeback, if the rumors are true (this time as a 320+HP monstrosity that the Mustang will share with the revised Ford Focus RS). Ah, memories of the SVO ...

Pseudo-Rumor Of The Day: 2014 Ford Mustang To Get Focus RS Turbocharged 4-Cylinder | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/pseudo-rumor-of-the-day-2014-ford-mustang-to-get-focus-rs-turbocharged-4-cylinder/)

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/mustangsvo.jpg

[blackraven]

I took a drive in a Crossfire. It drove nice but it was a little under powered with the 216HP Mercedes V6. The interior was made of cheap, flimsy hard plastic every where. I had a chance to buy the SRT 335HP convertible version which listed for $50K but was selling for $33K when they were shutting down production.

[recoveryone]

Well, if look at my new avatar you know what I got :), have to take it in for a new HU, can't be caught using my cell phone :( lol

[Feanor]

Well, if look at my new avatar you know what I got :), have to take it in for a new HU, can't be caught using my cell phone :( lol
Well congrats! Should be a very stylish ride.

http://www.chryslerextendedwarranty.org/images/chrysler-crossfire.jpg

A two-seater car would never be my choice even as a 2nd or 3rd car, but hey, peoples need vary.

[Woochifer]

Well, if look at my new avatar you know what I got :), have to take it in for a new HU, can't be caught using my cell phone :( lol

Congrats on the "new" ride! One of the silver linings in Chrysler's subpar resale value is finding a nice little hidden gem like this on the used car market. I would guess that the Mercedes SLKs (which share the same platform) sell for a lot more, but can't hold a candle to the Crossfire's performance.

[YStoneC]

Don't care much for the badges; it's more involvement. Just hate to be able to thumb, though; gives a control and power; right after I've thumbed; I beat my chest and let out a Tarzan call like Carol Burnett used to do :)
------------------------------------

[Woochifer]

Quick update ...

My Mazda3 has now clocked 3,800 miles. It's mostly highway driving, but I have a nearby canyon road that I like to occasionally take on my way home just so I can work the gears and the curves.

Based on my readings from the pump, I am averaging about 34.5 MPG, which exceeds the EPA combined rating. So far, I have a high tank fill of 39.5 MPG (which was probably a short fill) and a low of 30.4 MPG during the initial break-in period when I purposely did a lot of local driving. This is pretty good considering that my commute has a couple of big grades. Unfortunately, the car's mileage computer typically overshoots the fuel economy by 2-3 MPG, and it seems that the accuracy is especially bad if I'm driving on a hilly road.

As I mentioned before, the Mazda3's not a barnburner off the line, but man does it feel good throwing that car into a turn. Aside from a little bit of hesitation on the downshifting in auto mode, I have no complaints about the vehicle.

One other observation ... man, these direct injection engines are LOUD! At startup, my car sounds like a diesel (and most diesels are also direct injected) -- much louder than the VTEC engine on my Integra, and the convention fuel injected engine on our Mazda5. I started noticing this with other cars as well, especially with luxury and performance cars, which are likelier to use direct injected engines. In the parking lot today, I heard a BMW X5 start up and dang if that thing didn't sound like diesel truck! Rumor has it that the Ford Mustang, which has one of the nicer engine and exhaust notes out there, is going to go direct injection soon. I can't imagine someone firing up a Mustang, and the engine clattering like a diesel!

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Tech/Skyactiv/i-xXXfSkh/0/L/P1030850-L.jpg

[RGA]

Just great - more fraking noise pollution.

[Woochifer]

Just great - more fraking noise pollution.

Right, so to protect fragile golden eardrums, cars should stick with less advanced port injection engines that pollute more, gobble more fuel, and have less power? :sosp:

[bobsticks]

Why a hatchback? How about an SUV?

Video - Bentley $180,000 Superluxury SUV for Rich Soccer Moms - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/video/want-to-buy-a-180000-suv/54A465BC-496A-4DD0-97D1-D0844BF59BBA.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_mpvidcar_1)

[Feanor]

Why a hatchback? How about an SUV?

Video - Bentley $180,000 Superluxury SUV for Rich Soccer Moms - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/video/want-to-buy-a-180000-suv/54A465BC-496A-4DD0-97D1-D0844BF59BBA.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_mpvidcar_1)
Ah! Conspicuous consumption! :20:

http://www.bentleymotors.com/media/med/Libraries/1/EXP_9_F_overlay.jpg

But surely the convertible CGTC12 would be more your speed, 'Sticks??

http://www.bentleymotors.com/media/med/Libraries/1/CGTC12MYLOC32LS_2.jpg

[Woochifer]

Why a hatchback? How about an SUV?

Because I actually want to enjoy my drive! :ihih:


Video - Bentley $180,000 Superluxury SUV for Rich Soccer Moms - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/video/want-to-buy-a-180000-suv/54A465BC-496A-4DD0-97D1-D0844BF59BBA.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_mpvidcar_1)

Yeah, I've seen that abomination. Just another grotesque overpriced poseurmobile for people who hate driving. If there's any bright side to this, these land yachts are pure profit for the automakers -- people who overpay for these Bentley SUVs are subsidizing the R&D for VW's other models.

[Woochifer]

Ah! Conspicuous consumption!

But surely the convertible CGTC12 would be more your speed, 'Sticks??

Yep, a lot of what you're buying is that conspicuous Bentley badge. Underneath all that British coachwork, the Bentley Continental's mechanicals come straight from the VW Phaeton, which was discontinued in the U.S. due to low sales.

What's funny is that hardly anyone wanted to pay $80,000 for a decked out Volkswagen. But, slap on a new body, add the Bentley badge, and raise the price to ~$200,000, and all of a sudden they can't build enough of them. Strange thing this car biz is ...

[RebLinn]

I see that many perceive the car only for the price. This is not quite the right position. If you look only from this side, then the racing car will be the most expensive car)) But who can drive it except for professional racers? I like to watch racing shows from those new tracks they made in Africa. It's really beautiful and dangerous. I usually look for broadcast messages from a local site - 1xbet.com.zm (http://1xbet.com.zm/). It is a pity that I will not see it with my own eyes, but I will never miss an important race.