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Ajani
10-16-2011, 09:43 AM
This sign was displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF:

http://www.stereophile.com/images/101511China-600.jpg

EDIT: Correct link to blog - Politically Incorrect? | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/politically-incorrect)

On the Stereophile site the pic is captioned as "Politically Incorrect?"




Honestly, I think that goes beyond politically incorrect and starts crossing over into the racist/prejudice category. I think the sign would have worked much better with 2 changes:

1) Instead of just "China" crossed out in the circle, have "Made in China" crossed out.

2) Delete the last line "0% Chinese CRAP".

IMO the aim should be to show pride in American made products, rather than to denigrate Chinese production.



So what do you think? Does it cross the line?

harley .guy07
10-16-2011, 09:51 AM
True it could have been done better as far as saying made in China instead of China and leaving out the zero Chinese crap off of the sign. I remember a America that had enough pride in their products that they did not have to display a sign like that because they knew their products would show enough quality to not need a sign to say what they were thinking. If we as a country could get back to that way of thinking and concentrate on getting our abilities back up with the rest of the world and start manufacturing products that people would look at and see the quality difference and sound difference we would not need signs. To me signs are a "sign" of insecurity.

frenchmon
10-16-2011, 10:21 AM
Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.

Ajani
10-16-2011, 11:12 AM
True it could have been done better as far as saying made in China instead of China and leaving out the zero Chinese crap off of the sign. I remember a America that had enough pride in their products that they did not have to display a sign like that because they knew their products would show enough quality to not need a sign to say what they were thinking. If we as a country could get back to that way of thinking and concentrate on getting our abilities back up with the rest of the world and start manufacturing products that people would look at and see the quality difference and sound difference we would not need signs. To me signs are a "sign" of insecurity.

Agreed... If Made in the USA still meant high quality and Made in China really meant crap, then there would be no need for any signs... The truth is that manufacturers are finding that they can get the same quality workmanship in China and elsewhere for much cheaper... And clearly consumers are agreeing as they readily buy gear made in China. I think American manufacturers just need to focus on rediscovering a competitive advantage over China... If you can't beat them on price, then aim for quality...

Though of course, signs can work to the extent of trying to build sales based on national pride... So that persons will rather buy American, even if there is no real quality or cost advantage over buying Chinese made products... But as I said in my initial post care has to be taken not cross the line from national pride to prejudice against others (sadly the line can be very thin)...

Ajani
10-16-2011, 11:16 AM
Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.

I don't know who the manufacturer is, as the Stereophile article didn't identify them...

Also I agree that it is really marketing spin: a national pride campaign as I referred to it previously...

frenchmon
10-16-2011, 11:33 AM
I think those signs in todays economy work only if the consumer has money to burn or if the consumer has determined in his mind he will not buy foreign products and be limited by what is available in the USA. I read a posting over at Audio Asylum where one consumer said he buys Rogue because its American, and its about at his budget of $2000. He said he refuses to buy gear from China and will not spend more than 2K He also knew his choice in audio was limited as well.

But the point of why China....its because of the greed of the American manufacturer. From the parts to marketing to the finished product....its just all to expensive, so they go to China or other places where for the same parts and a finished product, they pocket more of the profits....who can blame them?

frenchmon
10-16-2011, 11:48 AM
Here is why I don't really believe anything is really made 100% in America anymore. Here in ST. Louis there where two Chrysler automobile plaints. Just like GM, they needed the bail out money to stay afloat. So Americans gave their good hard earned money and bailed out the auto manufacturers. So what does Chrysler do? They closed those two plaints here in St. Louis, putting thosands of people out of work, and moved to Mexico! That was a dirty move....did not even have the fortitude to keep that plaint in the USA. Though Rogue claims they are American made...I betcha they are not 100% American parts.

We have Herron Audio here in St. Louis...very expensive high end amps and tube preamps and at one point made very good high end speakers. We also have Clayton Audio as well...high end amps as well....I will bet neither is 100% American.

texlle
10-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Just because something is assembled in China should not detract from its build quality. If the collection of parts being assembled are manufactured in China, there could be cause for concern. These two concepts seem to run together all too often these days. My Jolida was assembled in China from a majority of components designed and built in MD. After 9 years, my amp has performed flawlessly, as have the rest of my stereo components.

Chinese manufactured parts are, on the whole, cheaply designed, hewn from cheap materials, easy to mass produce in great numbers, but are only effective enough to look good enough to sell. There's less forethought, no passion that goes into these products.

Chinese labor on the other hand yields far better results than Chinese manufacturing in terms of quality. If you're assembling a McIntosh amplifier, the individual pieces are made to exacting specifications, thus they should fit together precisely as they were intended to. Just follow the instructions. Any labor force can do this, no matter how much they're paid.

However, if it's a clock radio sold for $5.99 at the dollar store, the parts are cast or molded from crappy molds where each piece is slightly different from the last, thus assembly will be shoddy. Not to mention the cheaper metals and other raw materials as stated earlier. These factors give rise to the poorer quality products we see from the PRC.

recoveryone
10-16-2011, 03:57 PM
Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.

I think what you are missing in your thought is that most of the major technology inventions are made in America, but due to labor cost and basically the profit bottom line. Most companies out source the build and allow these builders to cut corners with cheaper parts and so on to cut the cost even more.

I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar. In many Asian countries the air quality is so poor, due that there are no regulation on pollution. All in an effort to gain more companies favor to bring their manufacturing needs, without the cost of having additional cost of building plants that are air quality safe along with worker health issues. So nothing wrong with the Chinese worker, but there life style is far behind what many Americans call standard.

RGA
10-17-2011, 01:00 AM
I don't know who the manufacturer is, as the Stereophile article didn't identify them...

Also I agree that it is really marketing spin: a national pride campaign as I referred to it previously...

Apparently it is Odyssey Audio if you scroll down to the comments section.

harley .guy07
10-17-2011, 06:12 AM
I guess I look at it from two perspectives. 1. is that I am an American so I do have a since of pride in American made products if they fit my budget but also I do not exclude products made in other countries if the quality is high like a lot of my system is. 2. I do feel that some of these companies that have their products built in China are exploiting the fact that Chinese workers will work for Penny's on the dollar and put their health at risk in order to make what living they can and still starve while the Company heads that contract these products get to add another Bentley to their private collection because they added so much to their Bottom line by having their products made there. I do not believe that is right and we as Human beings should not give into allowing Companies to treat people of any country like this. I do realize that it is not the Companies themselves that are causing these conditions but rather the contract companies in China that are at fault directly but I am sure that the head companies know how these factories operate and just turn a blind eye to it.

Ajani
10-17-2011, 06:16 AM
Apparently it is Odyssey Audio if you scroll down to the comments section.

Thanks! That comment was added after my thread (and my post in those comments section), so I didn't see it.

Odyssey really should be ashamed of itself... Especially considering that their 100% handcrafted in the US products are all just German Designs from Symphonic Line

Hyfi
10-17-2011, 06:39 AM
Seems odd that Odyssey would say this.

First of all, Klaus is German, came over here from Germany to sell German made products and then started selling Assembled In America products.

Hand Crafted must be referring to "Assembled" because Stratos Amps contain components from Japan as well as other places and are wired internally with Gronenberg cabling, which is made or was made in Germany.

If Klaus was behind this, I'm sure he has taken some heat for it. There does not seem to be a mention of it over at AudioCircle.

Now on the other hand, if you can buy a Chineese Tube amp for under $200 delivered, how much Quality are you really getting? Value, yes...quality, No.

Now on a sad note, most Americans cannot afford to buy items made in America due to the cost and pricing as a result of unions and what it costs to protect them. If that was not true, WalMart would no longer be in business here in the US.

Ajani
10-17-2011, 07:13 AM
Seems odd that Odyssey would say this.

First of all, Klaus is German, came over here from Germany to sell German made products and then started selling Assembled In America products.

Hand Crafted must be referring to "Assembled" because Stratos Amps contain components from Japan as well as other places and are wired internally with Gronenberg cabling, which is made or was made in Germany.

If Klaus was behind this, I'm sure he has taken some heat for it. There does not seem to be a mention of it over at AudioCircle.


This is why I find the idea of such a sign coming from Odyssey to be so puzzling... They are not a 100% (or even close to it) American company...

Hyfi
10-17-2011, 07:27 AM
This is why I find the idea of such a sign coming from Odyssey to be so puzzling... They are not a 100% (or even close to it) American company...

Yeah, does not make sense. And don't you think we would be able to quantify this easily if it were true?

But, it is true. I googled the sign and it pointed back to AudioCircle indeed.

Here is Klaus's explanation
Best Value Complete System Show Award by Stereomojo - RMAF-2010 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87703.msg864577#msg864577)


I am now sure he is saying that he uses no Chinese parts in his American Assembled components. Probably being a Blockheaded German, the sign does not read the same in English as it might have in German.

Florian
10-17-2011, 07:42 AM
Always those damn Germans! Racist bunch they are......

Ajani
10-17-2011, 07:57 AM
Yeah, does not make sense. And don't you think we would be able to quantify this easily if it were true?

But, it is true. I googled the sign and it pointed back to AudioCircle indeed.

Here is Klaus's explanation
Best Value Complete System Show Award by Stereomojo - RMAF-2010 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87703.msg864577#msg864577)


I am now sure he is saying that he uses no Chinese parts in his American Assembled components. Probably being a Blockheaded German, the sign does not read the same in English as it might have in German.

Based on his explanation I don't think it's a matter that the sign doesn't translate well from German. He could care less about whether it is offensive to some people... Also, I can't say his explanation makes it any better to me. He is clearly anti-China.

The question is just whether persons agree with his reasons for such a prejudiced stance... I certainly understand his points, but I still think his sign and comments go too far...

texlle
10-17-2011, 09:09 AM
He's definitely catering to a select audience. I'm a little thrown that an audio company figurehead would take such a vocally blasphemous (and profane) stance but then again I guess he prefers that potential customers come into contact with as minute a trace of mercury as possible among the other obvious reasons stated in Klaus's linked post. I can't say I disagree with him, but his approach is a bit radical.

recoveryone
10-17-2011, 10:02 AM
His stance has no real merit and is unnecessary at best, We Americans are our own worst enemy. We have have the mindset that labor intense work is beneath us, We all deserve to be driving 50K cars and live in 2-3k sq foot homes. We look down upon other countries and ask how come they don't live like us its 2011. We quickly forget our own struggles as a nation and how we lived not more than 50 years ago, let alone the pre-industrial age. Today is anti China, in years past it was Anti Japan. Who's next Mexico, Brazil, both countries are prime places to setup sweat shop and produce cheap labor to build American products or products we consume at alarming rates.

frenchmon
10-17-2011, 10:32 AM
I think what you are missing in your thought is that most of the major technology inventions are made in America, but due to labor cost and basically the profit bottom line. Most companies out source the build and allow these builders to cut corners with cheaper parts and so on to cut the cost even more.

I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar. In many Asian countries the air quality is so poor, due that there are no regulation on pollution. All in an effort to gain more companies favor to bring their manufacturing needs, without the cost of having additional cost of building plants that are air quality safe along with worker health issues. So nothing wrong with the Chinese worker, but there life style is far behind what many Americans call standard.


Some of these company's who out source have their own personnel looking and making sure the Chinese are building and using products that are quality and or picked by the Parent company doing the outsource. I know Marantz has their own quality control in China as well as Vincent Audio. I even read a report from electronics manufacturer Shengya stating that Vincent requires expensive quality parts in their electronics.

Oh and by the way...I own a German owned and designed preamp called Vincent, and I have gone over that thing with a fine tooth comb and I can say its not anything that is cheaply made...It says ...assembled in China on the back but the Parent company is in Germany. Its really a nice piece and reproduces very good sound as well. I had reserves about a purchase of Chinese products before but realized I had been using a Marantz home theater and Rotel gear for years....and both while having their parent company in other countries, where both assembled in China...so it really was a no brainer. China manufactures some outstanding stuff.

Ajani
10-17-2011, 10:52 AM
Here's my thoughts on the issue of quality control in China:

I don't doubt that many Chinese manufacturers specialize in cutting corners and using knock off parts... HOWEVER, the idea that ALL or even MOST do is just over the top...

If all these HiFi brands being built in China are subject to cost cutting and inferior parts then one or both of the following would occur:

1) The brands would lose market share because their products would sound inferior to non-Chinese produced gear. Clearly that is not the case as more and more products are moving production to China and getting rave reviews from magazines and end users...

2) The brands would suffer from massive increases in warranty claims as counterfeit "Chinese Crap" would cause their products to fall apart quickly. This would lead to more erosion of market share + lots more expense involved in servicing sub-quality product. Those service costs would likely be more than the cost of building the gear in the US in the first place...

Clearly since the load of HiFi brands that have moved production to China are not are not shutting down in droves, then the claims of substandard Chinese parts and labour are vastly exaggerated.

Hyfi
10-17-2011, 11:12 AM
Here's my thoughts on the issue of quality control in China:

I don't doubt that many Chinese manufacturers specialize in cutting corners and using knock off parts... HOWEVER, the idea that ALL or even MOST do is just over the top...

If all these HiFi brands being built in China are subject to cost cutting and inferior parts then one or both of the following would occur:

1) The brands would lose market share because their products would sound inferior to non-Chinese produced gear. Clearly that is not the case as more and more products are moving production to China and getting rave reviews from magazines and end users...

2) The brands would suffer from massive increases in warranty claims as counterfeit "Chinese Crap" would cause their products to fall apart quickly. This would lead to more erosion of market share + lots more expense involved in servicing sub-quality product. Those service costs would likely be more than the cost of building the gear in the US in the first place...

Clearly since the load of HiFi brands that have moved production to China are not are not shutting down in droves, then the claims of substandard Chinese parts and labour are vastly exaggerated.

Possibly Audio or Video gear may be the exception of products in this discussion but on a whole, almost every other item you purchase that is Made in China is out and out junk that falls apart quickly or does not perform as advertised. Most people, myself excluded would rather be quick in a purchase and keep buying the same junk because it is inexpensive, than do a little research and maybe spend a little extra up front so they don't have to replace it in a short time.

Unfortunately, there are still times when all you can buy when looking at some items are those made in China.

Refer to my earlier statement about Unions. If the high cost of manufacturing in America did not exist the way it does now, Americans would actually be able to afford to purchase American Made Goods.

Case in point:
I used to build Metal Stamping Dies for the Auto Industry. As a Journeyman Toolmaker, I was being paid around $15/hour with mediocre benefits. The dies would then be shipped to one of the Auto MFG plants where a Union Employee, making $25plus/hr with lots of benefits, could sit around with his feet up watching the press stamp out part after part with minimal user involvement but for oiling the tool or changing the roll of steel on the feeder and once in a while sharpen it. These bums would then go on strike because they did not get paid enough or get enough bennies. And you wonder why you can't afford American Made Goods as an American.

But, America is now a Consumer Nation and not a Manufacturing Nation. Blame Unions. Blame the government for starting NAFTA and all the other friggin Loopholes that Capitalists use to get more money in their greedy little pockets instead of just making a decent living while employing their fellow Americans.

I have a new definition for Capitalism - Legal but Immoral.

Enochrome
10-17-2011, 11:53 AM
He will lose business. No one likes to buy from a hater.

frenchmon
10-17-2011, 12:01 PM
Based on his explanation I don't think it's a matter that the sign doesn't translate well from German. He could care less about whether it is offensive to some people... Also, I can't say his explanation makes it any better to me. He is clearly anti-China.

The question is just whether persons agree with his reasons for such a prejudiced stance... I certainly understand his points, but I still think his sign and comments go too far...

After reading his reply, I am convinced he is angry for obvious reasons....and I am not speaking to his humanitarian issue he wrote in his reasons......here is what I believe his motive is ..


there are companies, esp. their owners, who rig this system big time for their own personal greed. Much easier to bring in some gear then to actually make it.
This greed ultimately only helps them and the corrupt Chinese government. Obviously there are a lot of people who'll buy that stuff without thinking about any consequences.

Then he makes mention its ok for Walmart, but not for our hobby.


Fair enough, Walmart mentalities are the norm these days, but at least when this issue is coupled with our beloved hobby (not living essentials), it should be some serious food for thought.

I think thats BS....why give the ok for living? The same humanitarian and greed is still happening....that proves he is angry about something else .. heres the real problem with him...


Yes, we have to work. A lot. Then again, we are not rich, but comfortable, and can be proud of what we do. Looking in the mirror without any consciousness issues is a wonderful thing.

He seems to be angry because others out sell him and get rich, and he cant. Now some of what he says is true...but you cant paint with such a big brush. Every one in China is not a crook. I know Marnatz, Vincent and Rotel are not crooks and have very repectable products.

Klaus....you cant be mad at the audio industry for greed and humanitatian reasons and not companies like Walmart who do the same thing.....and you cant save the world....move to China!

E-Stat
10-17-2011, 01:37 PM
So what do you think? Does it cross the line?
I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

Made in the USA. Sold in China

rw

Ajani
10-17-2011, 01:53 PM
I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

Made in the USA. Sold in China

rw

Nope.

I think Magnepan's approach is CLASSY.

Odyssey's approach is most definitely not classy.

frenchmon
10-18-2011, 04:15 PM
I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

Made in the USA. Sold in China

rw

And there you have it!

Worf101
10-19-2011, 05:10 AM
Red Wing Boots are now made in China as well as the U.S.

Cost:
U.S. - 240 to 300 depending on model etc..
Chinese - 120 on average.

Quality:
U.S. Boots are over 8 years old and on their 3rd re-sole.
Chinese - Split apart after working in this Fall's floods.

Conclusion, not all chinese stuff is crap, not all American made goods are the bee's knee's BUT every Redwing ain't a Redwing.

Worf

StevenSurprenant
10-27-2011, 02:36 AM
I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar.

I agree, cheap labor is the bottom line and out sourcing will circle the globe and maybe someday end up back in the U.S.A. when we become impoverished enough or the cost overseas becomes prohibitive due to standard of living increases. It's a cycle.

Use of automation which reduces that need for human labor is on the rise, so that, in time, labor costs may not be the main issue.

As for Chinese crap, we used to say the same thing about Japanese products, but look at us now...

As for the sign displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF - Bad choice on their part. Kind of reminds me of American Politics - Win by accusing the other candidate.

frahengeo
10-27-2011, 05:48 AM
This sign was displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF:

http://www.stereophile.com/images/101511China-600.jpg



So what do you think? Does it cross the line?

As an American Company, it should be about promoting American Craftmanship, Ingenuity, and Quality. Think pro-American, but not degrade or demote others. The sign absolutely promotes hate in my opinion.
While on the topic, buying American shouldn't be a given, it should be earned through competing in technological prowess, quality, and/or cost. (e.g. If the object could do the task better, and last 3~4 times longer, then I would be willing to pay double). Okay I'm done.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-27-2011, 11:05 AM
I am kind of mixed on this. First, I respect Klaus for standing up for what he believes. It is so rare that one is passionate about something, and stands strongly with it even if it is not a popular stance. He has obviously seen the business from a side many of us are not privy to, and is not too happy with what he has seen. I've had that same experience with the industry I work in, and it has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

To say that he is bitter and angry can be misleading. Maybe he is just rebelling against a trend that he see's as hurting the audio industry overall.

I have been hearing murmurs from friends that have companies that manufacture their products in China, and many of them say they are tired of the expense of constantly watching everything the manufacture does. They say you turn your head for a moment, and next thing you know cheaper parts show up in their products, and they have customer issues. Then there is the occasional factory owner that skips out because they cannot get financing to continue operations. Or if the product they make is valuable to the Chinese, the government wants access to the intellectual property digital codes(Can anyone say Bluray player).

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese manufactures can make a good product consistently. However for American companies this mean you must ALWAYS be watching the manufacture quality, and/or you have to have a strong long term tie which builds the trust. When you do your own manufacturing, you only have to watch what you do.

A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap.

Feanor
10-27-2011, 12:14 PM
I am kind of mixed on this. First, I respect Klaus for standing up for what he believes. It is so rare that one is passionate about something, and stands strongly with it even if it is not a popular stance. He has obviously seen the business from a side many of us are not privy to, and is not too happy with what he has seen. I've had that same experience with the industry I work in, and it has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

To say that he is bitter and angry can be misleading. Maybe he is just rebelling against a trend that he see's as hurting the audio industry overall.

I have been hearing murmurs from friends that have companies that manufacture their products in China, and many of them say they are tired of the expense of constantly watching everything the manufacture does. They say you turn your head for a moment, and next thing you know cheaper parts show up in their products, and they have customer issues. Then there is the occasional factory owner that skips out because they cannot get financing to continue operations. Or if the product they make is valuable to the Chinese, the government wants access to the intellectual property digital codes(Can anyone say Bluray player).

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese manufactures can make a good product consistently. However for American companies this mean you must ALWAYS be watching the manufacture quality, and/or you have to have a strong long term tie which builds the trust. When you do your own manufacturing, you only have to watch what you do.

A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap.
I doubt that Klaus would permit such a display without a degree of bitterness -- for which he can be excussed. Not only manufactures but workers too who have lost their jobs are likely to feel this way. Doesn't matter which category you're in, you are likely to feel the erosion of the American Dream.

Globalization and the relative decline of the USA are inevidable, but people can be excused for feeling that growing disparity between not only the poor but also the middle class, and the very rich, is a factor in their declining well-being. The fact is that real incomes have declined for the majority, (and this trend is expanding upwards to the upper middle class). Whether you're a consumer or a business person hoping to sell to American customers, you are bound to feel some angst these days.

By the way, I suspect it's easier for larger manufacturers to deal with China because they are better able to deal with the QA, logistic, and other issues, than small manufactures. E.g. Apple doesn't seem to have much trouble over there.

frenchmon
10-27-2011, 06:23 PM
i doubt that klaus would permit such a display without a degree of bitterness -- for which he can be excussed. Not only manufactures but workers too who have lost their jobs are likely to feel this way. Doesn't matter which category you're in, you are likely to feel the erosion of the american dream.

Globalization and the relative decline of the usa are inevidable, but people can be excused for feeling that growing disparity between not only the poor but also the middle class, and the very rich, is a factor in their declining well-being. The fact is that real incomes have declined for the majority, (and this trend is expanding upwards to the upper middle class). Whether you're a consumer or a business person hoping to sell to american customers, you are bound to feel some angst these days.

By the way, i suspect it's easier for larger manufacturers to deal with china because they are better able to deal with the qa, logistic, and other issues, than small manufactures. E.g. Apple doesn't seem to have much trouble over there.

+1000

Mash
10-28-2011, 09:01 AM
"A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap."

Not really true.

The key here is the need imposed by the stock market to continually grow (US) corporate profits, which then translates into bigger executive bonus payments. US companies must, per the stock market, continually grow their profits geometrically. Apple has done this with the profound gifts of Steve Jobs. Another approach is to make your products super cheap and sell them for a high price. A no-brainer, right?

Eddie Bauer sold a GoreTex parka for $150 and at season's end they might have had that parka on sale for $100. A former associate of mine told me he bought some of those parkas in China from a street vendor for $20 each. The vendor may have bought those parkas "out the back door" for $10 each, which could be what E-B pays. So if you can buy your merchandise for $10 and sell it for $150 that is not bad, is it?

It is true that there are real problems with having your products manufactured in China. And if you want to sell in China you must have a Chinese partner. If you have advanced proprietary or secret technology in your product that you are selling in China you may eventually find yourself competing with a new Chinese company that somehow has your technology and is also somehow getting all the orders in China.....

Another example is how greed had once harmed Ford: The 1997 F150 was cheapened to the point of being dangerous in a crash, and one reason was because the frame metal was reduced to glorified sheetmetal to save money by reducing the energy needed to form the parts. [If you reduce the metal thickness by 1/2 you reduce the amount of energy needed to form the parts by a factor of "8". This is a "thickness cubed" relationship.] The steering column and slow-to-deploy airbags seemed to be additional factors. See if the NTSB still has a crash test picture for the 1997-2003 F150 and if so, note where the crash test dummy is. [Also note that the front of the gas tank is hung off of the cab and its rear is hung off of the box.] Ford once sold about 2X as many F150 as GM sold full-sized 1/2 ton pickups. Now Ford sells about 20% more 1/2 ton pickups than does GM. This was probably why Bill Ford had stepped in to run Ford for a few years in the early 2000's.

I really don't think you want to blame the American consumer......

Mash
10-28-2011, 09:07 AM
The slash on the circle should go from upper left to lower right....................

Hyfi
11-11-2011, 01:09 PM
I was just watching my Dynaudio Tour the Factory DVD and this is something that Wilfred Ehrenholz, the Pres and CEO said as the Narrator asked "So why not move all production to the Middle East, like China?"

The answer was "You can buy a lot of reasonably good products from China for the money. But, if you want to achieve this ambitiousness, it would be impossible to do it anywhere else"

Dynaudio was one of the first Danish companies to be ISO9000 Certified. Do you think the jobbers in China are?

arctikdeth
09-19-2015, 05:33 PM
I seem to remember a time not long ago, when this was supported with no complaining, whining, or saying, racism, or other words. it's a shame what this country has become, a Giant heap of God complex prudes. Get over yourselves, and start supporting this once great country once more.