Closed , just when I was enjoying the thread

[Hyfi]

I was really enjoying the full exchange about the Anti Cables and was confused to see it closed.

When I first started posting at AR, it was in the Cables Forum only and it was one of the roughest online communities I ever endured. Those threads didn't get closed down just because someone was called out on the rug.

The anti thread was lame and tame compared to anything you can find in the archives when Mtry had his Band of Merry DBTers attacking anyone who said they could hear a change in their system when trying new ICs or Speaker Wire. I was one of those constantly under attack back then because I posted about what I heard and differences between cables I tried.

I am a firm believer that the Human Ear (and differently on every human) can tell far more audible differences between things than can be measured. Science is close, but still lagging behind nature a bit.

Many people cannot hear the differences and that's good and they can just get a Bose Wave since it should sound the same as anything else.

Some folks around here need to get a thicker skin and stop worrying about getting their feelings hurt when challenged or if disagreed with.

So I ask the person who closed the thread to re-open it and allow more comments and updates about the anti cables to be posted. So far from what I have read, I am half tempted to give them a try at some point and would like to continue to hear more about themt.

[JohnMichael]

We had a nice debate about AntiCables at Stereophile Forums. One member had tried them and did not like them. Always nice to share a difference of opinion with someone who actually heard them.

I will reopen my thread about the cables. They are certainly worth a try. I am very pleased with the cables and the two pair were no more expensive than my last night out to see Lewis Black and dinner at a nice restaurant.

[Hyfi]

We had a nice debate about AntiCables at Stereophile Forums. One member had tried them and did not like them. Always nice to share a difference of opinion with someone who actually heard them.

I will reopen my thread about the cables. They are certainly worth a try. I am very pleased with the cables and the two pair were no more expensive than my last night out to see Lewis Black and dinner at a nice restaurant.

Cool, I like reading the debates, views, as well as get a good laugh out of the hard core DBTers who don't trust their own ears and thoughts.

[JohnMichael]

Cool, I like reading the debates, views, as well as get a good laugh out of the hard core DBTers who don't trust their own ears and thoughts.

Or someone who does not like something based on theory and not on experience.

[bobsticks]

Or someone who does not like something based on theory and not on experience.

If Dusty_Beiber were here he'd call that "snarky"...:biggrin5:

[Hyfi]

If Dusty_Beiber were here he'd call that "snarky"...:biggrin5:

Excellent post!

[Smokey]

I am a firm believer that the Human Ear (and differently on every human) can tell far more audible differences between things than can be measured. Science is close, but still lagging behind nature a bit.

The problem with that assessment is that human hearing is very volatile. As you said, it changes from human to human and also as we age, and for the music listening depend on the kind of mood we are in. So it can not be used as a reference since it vary so much.

So if you buy an audio equipment or cable that was designed by ear, you are basically buying somebody else's vision (the designer) as what sound good. And for all we know, the designer might be deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other :D

But if you want accuracy and transparency, you will need a reference point that is constant. And only way to get that is thru measurments.

[E-Stat]

And only way to get that is thru measurments.
Fortunately, the best audio designers over the years have never crippled their thinking in that way. Here are a few comments from Lee Kuby, who was responsible for many of Harman Kardon's early successes:

<i>"There's still the problem of the electronic component which measures well, but sounds bad ...It is a point of view that I have held for over 15 years. I am convinced that a well-trained ear, educated in the concert hall, can detect nuances in sound and balances so subtle in nature that not even the most sophisticated test instruments can measure them."

"It took H/K a year to design the Citation 11 preamplifier and seven months to improve it sonically" </i>

Simple metrics get you only so far. Regarding cables, evaluating a cable's performance in a vacuum connected to nothing - but a resistor completely ignores the significant effects of the interaction with them and the real world in which they live - where sources drive amplifiers and amplifiers drive speakers.

rw

[Feanor]

I rarely visit the Cables forum because (a) in my moderate experience cables have made very little difference to the sound of my system, and (b) I no longer have patience for acrimonious debate on the subject.

I agree with Hyfi that science has not found relevant measures for all the things that the human ear can hear. Furthermore -- and maybe more importantly -- science hasn't defined or quantified even the measurable imperfections that the human ear tolerates relatively well or even prefers.

In the subject of cables, they do measure differently and therefore on objective grounds there is reason to suspect they might sound different. For my part, given my hearing and mostly mid-range equipment, I don't hear significant differences. I haven't experimented with really high-end cables however.

In my own experience I am more likely to hear differences between tubes or opamps than between cables. On the other hand I tend not to listen for cable differences so maybe it's just a matter of expectations.

[bobsticks]

I rarely visit the Cables forum because (a) in my moderate experience cables have made very little difference to the sound of my system, and (b) I no longer have patience for acrimonious debate on the subject...

Yes.

Out of my six hundred plus posts I'm pretty sure that post #5 of this thread was my first in this column.

As for "acrimonious", in always amazes me how many will claim ceteris paribus results born of unequal circumstances. Oh, it's true...different conditions yield different outcomes...

...and, by the way, if one's DBTs or critical listening sessions don't include room treatments and power conditioners then one's methods are unscientific, one's results are inaccurate and one should shut up.

So many of these debates end up reading like someone defining God or explaining to me the art on my own walls.

[Smokey]

Fortunately, the best audio designers over the years have never crippled their thinking in that way. Here are a few comments from Lee Kuby, who was responsible for many of Harman Kardon's early successes:

<i>"There's still the problem of the electronic component which measures well, but sounds bad ...It is a point of view that I have held for over 15 years. I am convinced that a well-trained ear, educated in the concert hall, can detect nuances in sound and balances so subtle in nature that not even the most sophisticated test instruments can measure them."

Harman Kardon does put out respectable amps with low distortion and good headroom. But I am sure Lee Kuby is well aware of human ear's limitations. For example, ear can not distinguish level changes that are less than 1 db which equal roughly 0.25% change in real term. Also the designer have to know what amps is doing to music harmonics as to whether it does change their levels, or adding its own to the mix.

He can use ear to fine tone his products, but he he is going have to fall back on measuring instuments to the keep vital specifications in check.



Simple metrics get you only so far. Regarding cables, evaluating a cable's performance in a vacuum connected to nothing - but a resistor completely ignores the significant effects of the interaction with them and the real world in which they live - where sources drive amplifiers and amplifiers drive speakers.

That is fine and all, but interacation between audio components still have be done via current and voltages. No matter how complicated you make it out to be, audio component are still an electronic instrument and have to follow certain rules as to regard to their input and outputs.

There are far more better connection that can be had for audio components than unbalance RCA or simple +/- speaker output, but hat is what is given on most audio components. So have to make the best of it :)

[E-Stat]

For example, ear can not distinguish level changes that are less than 1 db which equal roughly 0.25% change in real term.
Maybe you can't hear why quite a few electronics designers offer better than 1 db resolution for gain and balance controls.


No matter how complicated you make it out to be, audio component are still an electronic instrument and have to follow certain rules as to regard to their input and outputs.
The relevant point is that amplifiers behave differently driving real world loads than the test resistors used to measure distortion. Gene Czerwinski's measurements illustrate that point clearly.

rw