Can speaker companies compete with DIY?

[Poultrygeist]

As a DIY guy I found this interesting.

Ranting of a crazed Audiophile...Vol. 3 Why you should never buy speakers - Writer's Corner: Technology Non-Fiction - Epinions.com (http://www.epinions.com/content_5181579396)

[Hyfi]

Although I agree with some of what was said, I doubt that the weekend DIYer can build a speaker cabinet as precise and accurately as enclosures made on CNC machines to exacting dimensions that were not just plucked out of the air.

That said, I still don't think that any speaker is worth $200k a pair.

I do agree with this statement though:
"Actually, you wouldn’t have to use leading edge Scanspeak or Seas drivers to build a system to easily outperform systems like the Polk LSi25"

You can just buy a set half the price that sounds better than they sound.

Even if you buy a kit and screw the drivers in the hole, are the cabinets made the same as a pair from Dynaudio or Von Schwiekert? Have you heard any DIY kits that will outperform a pair of VSs or Danes? Polks yeah, I buy that.

[JohnMichael]

I would not have the skills to design a quality speaker that would compare to my OML1's. I could and have assembled kits from Speakerlab years ago. I find it easier to choose a speaker than it would be to voice a speaker.

I also do not have the equipment to build the enclosure. The cabinets of the OML1's are both vertically and horizontally braced. The front baffle is angled back 5 degrees. Much of the enclosure design I would not have the skills to replicate.

I will most likely always be a purchaser of the end product or at best an assembler of a fully designed kit. I do think it would be fun to attend a DIY convention and hear some interesting speakers.

[Feanor]

As a DIY guy I found this interesting.

Ranting of a crazed Audiophile...Vol. 3 Why you should never buy speakers - Writer's Corner: Technology Non-Fiction - Epinions.com (http://www.epinions.com/content_5181579396)
I'll venture a not necessarily well-informed opinion.

Commercial speaker methods can affort high-grade testing equipment and many prototypes to tweak designs but the price of their products reflects these costs. Meanwhile today great advice and great design software is available to enable a thoughtful and careful DIYer to design a very good speaker.

Under say $1500/pair I think it's cost effective to DIY if you build your own cabinets; in that case it's possible to surpass brands such as PSB or Paradigm. Over roughly that price you might even get away with buying cabinets and beat commercial products. On the other hand I think it would be very hard for a home DIYer to actually equal, say, a higher-end Magico.

[StevenSurprenant]

I built my own, but I got the drivers 2nd hand. Interestingly, the drivers had never been used. A gent bought them and never got around to building the cabinets. New cost for these drivers would be about $2,400. I paid $550. The box and cross overs were approximately another $500. Total cost - about $1,100 in round numbers.

I would have no idea how to compare these in terms of new speaker pricing. All I can say is that I'm not ashamed of how these stack up against very expensive speakers.

Many years ago I started to build my own computers and I would never buy a store bought computer again. The same now applies to speakers. If I were very wealthy, I might change my mind, but then I would miss out on the excitement of doing it myself.

The bottom line is that I agree with that crazed Audiophile.

BTW, this is the first speaker I built and I have never built anything before. It doesn't look store bought, but it sounds very good. I will admit, building speakers is not for everyone.

[poppachubby]

This guy posts at Audio Karma and I tend to believe what he says. Sorry but DIY is totally the way to go, and I include flatpack assembly in that category. For whatever a person lacks in skills, the solutions are available. Plenty of designs are available online from extremely intelligent DIY'ers. With simple cuts, most hardware stores will do this as part of the purchase. For anything difficult, cuts, fit or finish, a pro could be consulted. I can almost guarantee that the cost will still be competitive.

Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page (http://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/)

[Ajani]

I think the real question is:

Can DIY compete with speaker companies?

The answer is HELL NO...

I have no issue with DIY, but there is no sense pretending that it is serious competition for speaker manufacturers... DIY appeals to persons who enjoy building things themselves... Most persons don't and hence will never be interested in DIY...

Also, many non-DIY persons are not convinced that all these DIY projects actually compete favorably with systems costing X times more money... A lot of hype is often just that : hype... So I can always claim that some pair of speakers I built for $400 (that looks utterly horrid) sounds better than a $3K pair (with an impeccable finish) from a major manufacturer, but is that difference real or just my pride of ownership (creation)? Also an old audiophile trick is to compare a cheap item I like to a more much expensive item that I don't like... That way I can rave about how much better the cheaper item is for a mere fraction of the cost...

[poppachubby]

I think the real question is:

Can DIY compete with speaker companies?

The answer is HELL NO...

I have no issue with DIY, but there is no sense pretending that it is serious competition for speaker manufacturers... DIY appeals to persons who enjoy building things themselves... Most persons don't and hence will never be interested in DIY...

Also, many non-DIY persons are not convinced that all these DIY projects actually compete favorably with systems costing X times more money... A lot of hype is often just that : hype... So I can always claim that some pair of speakers I built for $400 (that looks utterly horrid) sounds better than a $3K pair (with an impeccable finish) from a major manufacturer, but is that difference real or just my pride of ownership (creation)? Also an old audiophile trick is to compare a cheap item I like to a more much expensive item that I don't like... That way I can rave about how much better the cheaper item is for a mere fraction of the cost...

No sorry, there are many proven designs which "compete" with manufactured models. DIY is not some yahoo with a drill and hammer, it's a total science. I can understand if aesthetics are an issue but as far as sound goes, I think competetive is an understatement. More like embarrasment for many overpriced pairs of speakers...

[bfalls]

I've been interested in building a set of high quality bookshelf speakers for some time. It sounds like a great hobby for retirement. I've done a lot of reading on different designs and driver types. I know my electronics and I'm not a bad fabricator.

Can someone suggest a good audiophile quality bookshelf 2-way system in the $400-$500 range?

I have a woodworking friend who would be happy to help me with the cabinets. I'm just not that familiar with raw drivers or xover design to design my own system, so a well respected kit sounds good. I've seen the Fried small bookshelf systems, but I'm looking for something a little more substantial. Later when I have more confidence I can attempt a system of my own design.

[Hyfi]

This guy posts at Audio Karma and I tend to believe what he says. Sorry but DIY is totally the way to go, and I include flatpack assembly in that category. For whatever a person lacks in skills, the solutions are available. Plenty of designs are available online from extremely intelligent DIY'ers. With simple cuts, most hardware stores will do this as part of the purchase. For anything difficult, cuts, fit or finish, a pro could be consulted. I can almost guarantee that the cost will still be competitive.

Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page (http://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/)

Those sure are some purdy speakers but...

Most people do not have the space or proper tools to put something like that together.

And if I put the same hourly rate of my day job, on a DIY job like that, it would probably cost me more.

[Ajani]

No sorry, there are many proven designs which "compete" with manufactured models. DIY is not some yahoo with a drill and hammer, it's a total science. I can understand if aesthetics are an issue but as far as sound goes, I think competetive is an understatement. More like embarrasment for many overpriced pairs of speakers...

Sure, some designs maybe... But the question non-DIYers may ask is "proven" by who?

And even if they are proven (I don't doubt some designs will embarrass commercial gear in terms of performance for the $$$, especially if you don't include the cost of your own labour) that still doesn't make DIY competitive, as most persons have no desire to build things themselves...

We need to be realistic about the potential users of DIY...

[Ajani]

Those sure are some purdy speakers but...

Most people do not have the space or proper tools to put something like that together.

And if I put the same hourly rate of my day job, on a DIY job like that, it would probably cost me more.

Good points and exactly my thoughts on DIY projects... I've considered DIY projects in the past, but have dismissed them partially because I have none of the required tools (so purchasing them would jack up the costs of the build) + I have to factor in the cost of my own time... Being a complete DIY novice, I would need to devote far more time than an experienced builder... Also, I'd want to start on a few really cheap projects as learning experiences... So those initial projects would be an additional cost to absorb... So by the time I add up equipment, labour and R&D/training I'm equal to or in excess of the cost to just buy a completed product...

If I was someone who enjoys building things, then I could exclude my own labour from the cost as might find the build to be relaxing... Also, I'd probably already have the required tools...

DIY is its own hobby...

[markw]

After all, seeds are cheap and the cost of chicks and various other meats "on the hoof" is cheaper than the same meat in pre-wrapped plastic packages.

[harley .guy07]

there are just not enough people out there that have a combination of skills necessary to build a speaker that can do what a good high end speaker can do. I have built several speakers and have repaired dozens and I know first it takes carpenters talent to build the cabinet with the addition of knowing the size of cabinet for the drivers you are using and baffle step compensation and all of that, then you have to an expert at crossover design in order to build a crossover that will work perfect with the drivers(what order?, Zobel networks, etc.), Then after all of that you have to be a driver expert and know how to put together drivers that mate well together and will have the same balance with each other for coherence and seemless integration. Then you also have to be either a good painter or a pro at wood finishing or veneering to get the speaker to be appealing to look at.

Point is most people either don't want to or aren't capable of all the things I have listed here.

[Poultrygeist]

If you don't believe DIY is competitive spend some time at DIY Audio. That forum is a world wide audio engineering brain trust of the highest order. These guys have owned all the high end gear and moved on knowing they can build better for a lot less.

The Tang Band drivers in my DIY OB's sell for $500. Anyone care to guess what commercial speakers with drivers that costly might retail for? I recently saw a commercially made single driver bass reflex version with my Tang Bands selling for $15,000. Wish I could find the link.

The 10 inch Eminence drivers as used in all the Zu's retail for around $60 each yet most Zu's sell for thousands. I've been all through their cabs and inspite of their great sound there's no breakthrough technology in their simple well executed enclosure.

As I said before, speaker building is not the black art some would have you believe. It's a science with predictable outcomes. Math cad programs are now available for a few bucks that will specify the type and dimensions of an enclosure based upon driver specs. Commercial speaker designers use these same programs.

[rightaway]

what is a good site to buy speakers? i have an old set of big floor speakers but they dont sound to good. i was thinking about replacing the speakers and dynamat the inside and maybe throw some cotton stuff in there

[harley .guy07]

If you don't believe DIY is competitive spend some time at DIY Audio. That forum is a world wide audio engineering brain trust of the highest order. These guys have owned all the high end gear and moved on knowing they can build better for a lot less.

The Tang Band drivers in my DIY OB's sell for $500. Anyone care to guess what commercial speakers with drivers that costly might retail for? I recently saw a commercially made single driver bass reflex version with my Tang Bands selling for $15,000. Wish I could find the link.

The 10 inch Eminence drivers as used in all the Zu's retail for around $60 each yet most Zu's sell for thousands. I've been all through their cabs and inspite of their great sound there's no breakthrough technology in their simple well executed enclosure.

As I said before, speaker building is not the black art some would have you believe. It's a science with predictable outcomes. Math cad programs are now available for a few bucks that will specify the type and dimensions of an enclosure based upon driver specs. Commercial speaker designers use these same programs.

I understand and agree to the highest degree that it is not a black art and as I explained I have built speakers and also repaired several and know drivers,crossover, and cabinet design and have studied this stuff quite a bit and have used a few of the programs to assist but most of the math was done myself with the driver specs. I understand that you see companies all the time with drivers in their cabinets that you can buy for cheap and they sell speakers for thousands with these drivers. ZU, Usher, and many more use drivers form Scan Speak, Seas, Vifa, and many other manufacturers saying that their design is all theirs when they are just plain putting ready made drivers in their cabinets and building crossovers to the drivers specs. I understand all of that. All I am saying is that there very few people in this world capable of totally building speakers form the ground up and doing it right with the finish and acoustic outcome of these companies and that is why they buy speakers instead of building them. Not every audiophile is a technical person when it comes to the design of equipment. I myself support DIY and by all means plan on keeping building projects when time allows but most people just do not have all the abilities that I just mentioned. Either they are a good carpenter but do not know electronics enough, or they know the driver and crossover design but could not build a cabinet to save their lives. DIY only works if you either have all of these talents or have some of them and can get the other done from friends. Madisound, Parts Express and other companies would not be around without DIY being strong.

[harley .guy07]

correction actually Usher does not use Scan Speak drivers they make a driver themselves that resembles a Scan Speak with different measurements for their uses.

[Kursun]

As a DIY guy I found this interesting.

Ranting of a crazed Audiophile...Vol. 3 Why you should never buy speakers - Writer's Corner: Technology Non-Fiction - Epinions.com (http://www.epinions.com/content_5181579396)


I completely agree with this opinion.
Attached is the photo of my HT system (photo taken more than 4 years ago).

All the speakers in this photo were built by me. Actually there are 2 sets of speakers in the photo. A small pair of speakers and a small sub at the bottom is for casual TV watching.

Research, design and construction (including woodwork) of my main left & right speakers took 2 years, working on it some evenings and weekends. The center project was much faster as I had all the parameters by then.

How does it sound? I'm completely satisfied.

The large sub's (left of the photo, under the electronic equipment) woodwork was done professionally (50 mm mdf baffle, 30 mm mdf all around). It has 15" woofer in closed enclosure and 500 wrms amplification.

A pair of Yamaha NS1000M as surrounds, and a pair of Wharfedale surrounds as back surrounds complete the system.

My most used audio/video source now is a Popcorn Hour C-200 media player.

[Kursun]

Some more photos...

[StevenSurprenant]

How does it sound? I'm completely satisfied.


Nice!

One question...

Do you think building the midrange tweeter outside the box helps the sound? It certainly looks nice,

[Poultrygeist]

Kursun,

Outstanding job but I could never come close to your woodworking skills. I do think most people on this forum could build basic enclosures if properly motivated.

A couple of years ago I took a one day course at a local woodworking store in making kitchen cabinets which involves the same principle as making a speaker enclosure - i.e. joining four sides of a box together at right angles and adding a top and bottom. We learned to use a Kreg pocket hole jig to join all the sides. Youtube has several videos showing the tiny inexpensive jig in action. All one really needs is a pocket hole jig, a drill, wood screws, glue and a jig saw. Lowes or Home Depot will make all the cuts free of charge if you buy their plywood or MDF.

If you have curves to cut or more complicated designs most large cabinet shops have CNC machines and they will make all the precision cuts for a small fee. I did this with my Frugal Horn Mk3 builds and they came out great. I'll try and post a picture in this thread.

[Kursun]

Without the parallel surface to travel and edge refraction I believe it definitely helps achieving an open sound.

[Kursun]

Kursun,

Outstanding job but I could never come close to your woodworking skills.

I'm sure you can do much better than me. I consider myself a novice woodworker. I do take care and not hurry. The enclosures were good looking even in their raw mdf form, before applying pvc.

[StevenSurprenant]

Without the parallel surface to travel and edge refraction I believe it definitely helps achieving an open sound.

The reason I asked was that my DIY's have a ribbon on top that is open air and it creates a very open sound. Your's is similar in concept.

I've attached a picture of mine. They are unfinished and I know that I made some mistakes, but this is a first for me. They sound way better than they look. I'm almost embarrassed to let you see mine after seeing your's. Oh well, it's all good!

[Poultrygeist]

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/P3040010.JPG

[Poultrygeist]

http://://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/P32100061.JPG

[Ajani]

after all, seeds are cheap and the cost of chicks and various other meats "on the hoof" is cheaper than the same meat in pre-wrapped plastic packages.

lol....

[Poultrygeist]

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/P32100061.JPG

[Poultrygeist]

The Frugal Horns above and several similar versions of the folded horn can command around $1,000 commercially yet mine cost less than $200 including the CNC cuts.

[StevenSurprenant]

The Frugal Horns above and several similar versions of the folded horn can command around $1,000 commercially yet mine cost less than $200 including the CNC cuts.

In your opinion, how do they sound compared to store bought? I've never seen any made that way. Kinda cool!

[Poultrygeist]

Want to try a build that any 10 year old could pull off, costs less than a evening on the town and sounds as good as most $500 box speakers?

Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers (http://www.wildburroaudio.com/)

[Poultrygeist]

The part that may be escaping many of you is that full range single drivers require no crossovers. You just connect two wires to the terminals on the speakers and wire them to the posts on the enclosures. That's it.

In my 40 years of audio I've never heard speakers that can touch the Frugals in detail and point source imaging. For small group jazz in nearfield they'll bring a tear to your eye. For dynamic thunderous rock I'd look elsewhere. Unless corner loaded they'll require a sub or bass helpers.

[Kursun]

In your opinion, how do they sound compared to store bought? I've never seen any made that way. Kinda cool!

Depends on the speaker that you buy from the store.

BTW, a well known brand name doesn't guarantee good sound. Sometimes you may get the most prestigious brands and still not get good sound. A couple of years ago I had a chance to listen to JM Labs/Focal Grand Utopia speakers driven by some Marantz electronics. The sound was horrific. Immediately I asked if they were playing mp3. No, they were playing the demo cd that came with the speakers. Yet something was wrong. It may have been the acoustics of the showroom.

[StevenSurprenant]

Depends on the speaker that you buy from the store.

BTW, a well known brand name doesn't guarantee good sound. Sometimes you may get the most prestigious brands and still not get good sound. A couple of years ago I had a chance to listen to JM Labs/Focal Grand Utopia speakers driven by some Marantz electronics. The sound was horrific. Immediately I asked if they were playing mp3. No, they were playing the demo cd that came with the speakers. Yet something was wrong. It may have been the acoustics of the showroom.

I know exactly what you mean. For example, I listened to a pair of Magnepans (a long time) and they sounded great. I went to two other stores and were awful. Same speaker, different electronics and setups. The same thing happened with Wilson Watt/Puppies.

I guess that my question wasn't very realistic. The fact that you're not out speaker shopping says a lot. Anyway, very nice speakers.

[poppachubby]

The part that may be escaping many of you is that full range single drivers require no crossovers. You just connect two wires to the terminals on the speakers and wire them to the posts on the enclosures. That's it.

In my 40 years of audio I've never heard speakers that can touch the Frugals in detail and point source imaging. For small group jazz in nearfield they'll bring a tear to your eye. For dynamic thunderous rock I'd look elsewhere. Unless corner loaded they'll require a sub or bass helpers.

I will second that. The Frugals can recreate midrange that is so convincing, with so much immediacy, instruments like a sax come to life. I am going on a year with no changes to my system, the horns had alot to do with it. All I do now is turn on the power and enjoy. I still get excited listening to music and I don't see any end in sight.

I think the bottom line is that we can babble all day long, but for everyone who hasn't...they must be heard.

As far as addressing the point of comparisons and competitive, there are guys with alot of cake at sites like DIYaudio. People who have switched from mega buck speakers to a "simpler" DIY based model.

(sigh) How I wish I could have some of you guys come over and hear for yourself. Also how I would love to visit poultry's house of goodies.


BTW poultry I am considering some bass extension...maybe. Xmas gift for myself perhaps. I realy love the Hsu Research but I know we have discussed the OB's.

[StevenSurprenant]

I will second that. The Frugals can recreate midrange that is so convincing, with so much immediacy, instruments like a sax come to life. I am going on a year with no changes to my system, the horns had alot to do with it. All I do now is turn on the power and enjoy. I still get excited listening to music and I don't see any end in sight.

I think the bottom line is that we can babble all day long, but for everyone who hasn't...they must be heard.

As far as addressing the point of comparisons and competitive, there are guys with alot of cake at sites like DIYaudio. People who have switched from mega buck speakers to a "simpler" DIY based model.

(sigh) How I wish I could have some of you guys come over and hear for yourself. Also how I would love to visit poultry's house of goodies.


BTW poultry I am considering some bass extension...maybe. Xmas gift for myself perhaps. I realy love the Hsu Research but I know we have discussed the OB's.

I, for one, don't want to listen, cause you know what happens next? If it's as you say, then I'll go home and bury my system in the back yard.

How could you be so cruel?

Ignorance is bliss!

[poppachubby]

The reason I have stopped messin with my system is the simple fact that it now sounds the same or better than systems I used to envy. Frankly, for something to really turn me on I would have to spend a laughable amount of cash. So this always happily brings me back to my baby.

I have some Gene Ammons on right now and let me tell ya, the imaging is wonderfully intruiging. The Boss is front and center, blowin like hell. All I can say is that I am hearing emotion, something that so many pairs of (pricier) speakers just flat out lack.

So sorry for this piece of egotistical and narccisistic ranting, but the Frugal horn is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest example of DIY dominance. Affordably and easily built...

Instead of envy, I now occasionally glow with happiness.

[StevenSurprenant]

So sorry for this piece of egotistical and narccisistic ranting, but the Frugal horn is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest example of DIY dominance. Affordably and easily built...

Nice wood finish. Is that laminate?

You deserve it, it's okay to run out into the street and tell the world.

[JoeE SP9]

What do you know?:devil:
Electrostatics with transmission line subwoofers!:D
I'd love to hear Jazzman's system.:smilewinkgrin:

[poppachubby]

What do you know?:devil:
Electrostatics with transmission line subwoofers!:D
I'd love to hear Jazzman's system.:smilewinkgrin:

Hey Joe! I knew you'd be along to crash the party with your "drivers are too slow" crying. :ihih: Yes I think Jazzman's system would sound sweet too...

[Poultrygeist]

Over a year ago PChubbs PM'd me about buying some DIY Frugals and I told him to jump on them. He's been a contented soul ever since and his Frugals have those eNabled drivers that I lust over.

My black Frugals in the picture are nothing more than primed MDF rolled with black gloss enamel. I'm gonna decoupage my next pair with sheet music.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The reason I asked was that my DIY's have a ribbon on top that is open air and it creates a very open sound. Your's is similar in concept.

I've attached a picture of mine. They are unfinished and I know that I made some mistakes, but this is a first for me. They sound way better than they look. I'm almost embarrassed to let you see mine after seeing your's. Oh well, it's all good!

I can now see why you are having issues with the center channel. It would be hard to integrate an identical center channel in this kind of setup.

[StevenSurprenant]

I can now see why you are having issues with the center channel. It would be hard to integrate an identical center channel in this kind of setup.

One picture is worth a thousands words, the saying goes. BTW the picture I posted on this thread is of my 2 channel system. My surround system is another animal. If you want me to post a picture for you to see, I will.

Referring to my surround system...

I don't have a db meter but I did try and match the amplitude, by ear, as best I could and that seamed to help. The center has similar sound to the mains, so I tried to eq them as close as possible and that also seemed to help.

Another thing I did was to move my rear surrounds (similar dipoles) further apart to the corner of the room and set them up so that they are at a 45 degree angle from the corner. I also moved them toward the ceiling. It looks odd, but that's not important. This creates more of a dipole effect. This seemed to improve the integration with the mains.

There is one thing I'm thinking of trying, but I don't know if it's worth the effort. I have a spare set of speakers, the same as the rears, and I thought I'd try to stack them (one above the other) in the same 45 degree configuration. I'm not sure if they would improve the sound. In effect, I would have 6 foot dipole planers on the back wall.

The only advantage, I think, is that since planers have a limited vertical dispersion, it would improve the intelligibility of the rears. I'm not sure this is even important. It sounds pretty good the way it is.

Anyway, I know that you are not a planer kind of guy, but I'd thought I'd mention this to you. BTW, some sites recommend dipoles and bipoles for the rear speakers.

Face Off: Surround-Speaker-Configuration Wars | Home Theater (http://www.hometheater.com/content/face-surround-speaker-configuration-wars)

Thanks for trying to help.

To everyone else, I don't mean to step on your thread and I'll get back on subject. Sorry!