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topspeed
04-14-2004, 10:06 PM
OK, let's hear it.

How was Sea Cliff?

E-Stat
04-15-2004, 12:54 PM
OK, let's hear it.

How was Sea Cliff?
Travels to Seacliff always leave me amazed, enthused, recharged, and a bit lighter of wallet (once I buy all the new music I hear). Harry's energy level seemed to be in overdrive this trip as well with John and me both there. Early Saturday evening, we had dinner at Harry's favorite sushi restaurant (the whole staff knows him) and then settled in for some power listening back at the ranch. As amazing as the system is, it is his music collection that is simply wonderful.

We listened to vinyl primarily and compared a Kuzma turntable / Air bearing tonearm with Myabi cartridge to an interesting VPI hybrid: the Scoutmaster using TNT motor, SDS speed controller, and the periphery clamp with Dynavector XV1 cartridge. Harry Weisfeld had brought the Scoutmaster over a while back and wondered how it would sound using the massive TNT double motor/flywheel assembly from the HR-X that Harry already had. He said that Weisfeld was dumbfounded with how good the Scoutmaster sounded in that configuration. It did. Anyway, both sounded excellent although the VPI really excelled on the bottom end and seemed to have a more solid image. With the Alon Grand Exotica bass towers, you are well aware of low end! At first, the Kuzma also sounded a bit brash at the top. Was that due to the captive wire on the Kuzma vs. Valhalla on the VPI? Although the Kuzma was a pretty "fresh" demo, Harry asked for me to check all the contacts and clean if necessary. Indeed, the connectors benefitted from a bit of Pro-Gold with some evidence visible on the cloth. That change was immediately audible. The rest of his current system consisted of Basis battery powered phono, Conrad-Johnson ART II preamp, and four ASL Hurricane power amps driving the main towers and the woofers, and Valhalla cabling throughout. We listened to the Lector CDP just a little bit (the Burmesters just sat there in all their gorgeous chrome plated glory). I brought a copy of the Lord of the Rings soundtrack and wanted to take a listen. One reason is that the ASO and Chorus will be presenting a concert of LOTR music in June and I wanted to hear it on this system first. I also heard a Telarc collection of some new ASO stuff including Higdon's City Scape Concerto and Brittain's Sea Song. Jennifer Higdon has become my favorite new composer (and HP gave me a copy of it).

It seemed to be mostly a Classic Records night. He had quite a collection of Tony Hawkins' excellent 45 RPM single sided remasterings of all sorts of tasty pieces: Dorati Firebird on Mercury, Reiner Pictures at an Exhibition on RCA Living Stereo, Munch Ravel Concerto in G on RCA, Schory Music for Bang, Baroom, and Harp, Songs for the Aubergne with soloist Netalia Davrath, and more. It is amazing how dimensional those old recordings can sound with a revived mastering and that system. One of HP's secrets to minimizing wear is that he typically gets three copies of every recording. He mentioned that Hawkins has been to Seacliff and commented that he never heard his recordings like that before. That is easy for me to believe. I just want all those incredible recordings. :)

Record after record revealed layers of detail I'm not accustomed to. The system is so remarkably open sounding as to defy description. Yes, Virginia a $300k system does sound different than most others! I would not characterize it as sounding like tubes nor solid state although there are some of each used. The Firebird and Ravel in particular were simply holographic in their ability to recreate a large space. There were a couple of bands on the Bang, Baroom, and Harp album that really showed off the amazing transient and resolution capabilities of the system with it's wide range of percussive instruments. Early on, Harry had said that he wanted to crash fairly early but that was not to be. He kept pulling out more records to hear until after midnight. He did play a few pop tunes, like an old America song from the 70's. While it sounded very clear, the soundstage kinda collapsed. I finally heard the Dusty Springfield "Look of Love" cut he is so fond of. Indeed, that recording is so clean and captures the expressive nature of her voice. The high frequencies are to die for.

Now, I just need to put together my Classic Records order and see what the cost of the VPI periphery clamp is. This trip is probably going to cost me about $500 in new stuff to get!

rw

topspeed
04-15-2004, 02:08 PM
Sounds like it was fun! I'd just read about the Lector in TAS and it sounds like a interesting piece (loved the galoshes jab). It's funny, don't you think we should always be challenging our perceptions of reality, not just in audio, but in all aspect of life? Our short time here would be so much more interesting!

BTW, I should have told you to have some Unagi for me!

mtrycraft
04-15-2004, 06:51 PM
Yes, Virginia a $300k system does sound different than most others! rw

Or not as you had no way of compariong, right. You just hope it does due to cost. Or, it could sound different. Certainly he has different speakers and room.

E-Stat
04-15-2004, 07:27 PM
Or not as you had no way of compariong, right. You just hope it does due to cost. Or, it could sound different. Certainly he has different speakers and room.
You simply have no idea. Really you don't.

rw

hifitommy
04-15-2004, 08:01 PM
Or not as you had no way of compariong, right. You just hope it does due to cost. Or, it could sound different. Certainly he has different speakers and room.
you are really WAAAAAY out of your league here. just shut the fugue up.

mtrycraft
04-15-2004, 08:04 PM
you are really WAAAAAY out of your league here. just shut the fugue up.


Ah, your way or the highway? Are you the top dictator now?

mtrycraft
04-15-2004, 08:05 PM
You simply have no idea. Really you don't.

rw


You are too gullible to step back and evaluate rationally.

hifitommy
04-15-2004, 08:16 PM
You are too gullible to step back and evaluate rationally.
you just dont have the experience nor expertise to comment here. youre not ignorant of a lot of things, just this subject it seems, dont make yourseof look stupid.

had you been privy to these sessions, you may turn compeletely around. but you werent, nor likely to be. and probably dont want to be. if only you could be part of something this revealing, you could put your intelligence to useful work.

please understand that there are audio systems and recordings that can transport you to the original venue, including its space, tonality, and presence that you have yet to experience. some of these people relating these experiences have been there at the actual recording sessions and some are part of making these recordings come alive.

mtrycraft
04-15-2004, 08:24 PM
you just dont have the experience nor expertise to comment here. youre not ignorant of a lot of things, just this subject it seems, dont make yourseof look stupid.

had you been privy to these sessions, you may turn compeletely around. but you werent, nor likely to be. and probably dont want to be. if only you could be part of something this revealing, you could put your intelligence to useful work.

please understand that there are audio systems and recordings that can transport you to the original venue, including its space, tonality, and presence that you have yet to experience. some of these people relating these experiences have been there at the actual recording sessions and some are part of making these recordings come alive.

Revealing? Maybe yes, maybe no different form other systems. Now you are making an unfounded claim based on your biases, again. Do you have anything substantial to support this claim? Or, just the component brand name and price tag?
A stereo setup just cannot transport you to anywhere, it is limited. That was already well know in the 1930s, LOL. Keep on dreaming.
I am sure I would have enjoyed the system. I just would not claim extraordinary events for it without objective evidence. That is all both of you are doing.

hifitommy
04-15-2004, 08:28 PM
Revealing? Maybe yes, maybe no different form other systems. Now you are making an unfounded claim based on your biases, again. Do you have anything substantial to support this claim? Or, just the component brand name and price tag?
A stereo setup just cannot transport you to anywhere, it is limited. That was already well know in the 1930s, LOL. Keep on dreaming.
I am sure I would have enjoyed the system. I just would not claim extraordinary events for it without objective evidence. That is all both of you are doing.
you have just exhibited this in public! nothing more need be said. stupid, not ignorant.

mtrycraft
04-15-2004, 08:31 PM
you have just exhibited this in public! nothing more need be said. stupid, not ignorant.


You have demonstrated nothing in public, just your biases. Too bad, a bit of more knowledge would have helped you save face.

WmAx
04-15-2004, 08:53 PM
A stereo setup just cannot transport you to anywhere, it is limited. That was already well know in the 1930s, LOL. Keep on dreaming.While obviously a stereo can not transport you anywhere(it's not a car, etc.); if the combination of stimuli(regardless of what or why) invokes a perceptual sense of 'realism' to the subject, then is this not good enough? I have seen many people claim such things. Same as I have seen many make claims of wire sound, etc.. I don't think they are usually lying when it comes to what they percieved; just making ignorant claims as to what is fact. A sound reproduction system's goal is to provide as realistic presentaion as is possible. This is only a perception, since it is never the real event. Personally, if a combination of factors can make me 'percieve' a realistic presentation, that's good enough for me. With myy personal sound system, I'm able to percieve realistic presentations with some select recordings. It's the same with many people who have listened to the system. They could be lying, of course. I'ts only a perception. Am I missing something?

-Chris

hifitommy
04-15-2004, 09:03 PM
You have demonstrated nothing in public, just your biases. Too bad, a bit of more knowledge would have helped you save face.
and i have no need to save face. i stand by what i hear, and i hear recordings that are MUCH like being at an actual performance. too bad you dont have a real stereo. this can cme back from 2 channels. surround is nice and i do this passively.

flail around if you must, reality can be reproduced and perceived. there is magic within the reocrdings we buy, you just have to recover it.

flap on if you must. you arent enjoying whats given you. its all there. i feel sorry for you.

WmAx
04-15-2004, 09:12 PM
I remembered an old Floyd Toole paper, "Direction and Space, The Final Frontiers".

He specifically states...

quote 1(reference to 30's Bell Labs Research):

"Bell Labs scientists concluded that a great many channels would benecessary to capture and reproduce the directional and spatial complexities of a musicaloundstage not even attempting to recreate a surrounding sense of envelopment. Being practical, they investigated the possibilities of simplification, and concluded that, while two channels could yield acceptable results for a solitary listener, three channels (left,center and right) would be a desirable minimum to establish the illusion of a stable frontsoundstage for a group of listeners."

quote 2(reference to what is presumably his personal experience):

"In fairness it must be said that, after over forty years of experimentation, the best two-channel stereo recordings reproduced over the right set of loudspeakers in the rightroom can be very satisfying indeed. Sadly, only a fraction of our listening experiencesfall into that category. Clearly stereo does not get us to our long-term objective."

It seems to me, that this paper does not nescarrily dismiss the possibility of stereo sounding realistic. However, it does clearly demonstrate that stereo is inadequate for reliable and versatile(more then very limited one seated position) use in realistic reproduction. Though, Toole does not specify what he means by "very satisfying indeed". I am assuming he is referring to goal of realistic reproduction, since this is the topic of the paper. Perhaps someone shoule email him for further explanation?

-Chris

E-Stat
04-16-2004, 05:01 AM
You are too gullible to step back and evaluate rationally.
Heh heh. I guess that is all you can say because it is so far outside your experience.

It really is that good. Don't take my word for it, though. Ask Harry Weisfeld. Ask Bob Carver. Ask Luke Manley. Ask Carl Marchisotto. Ask Tony Hawkins. Ask Arnie Nudell. Ask Jud Barber. Ask Ole Lund Christensen. The list goes on...

rw

mtrycraft
04-16-2004, 07:49 PM
I remembered an old Floyd Toole paper, "Direction and Space, The Final Frontiers".

He specifically states...

quote 1(reference to 30's Bell Labs Research):

"Bell Labs scientists concluded that a great many channels would benecessary to capture and reproduce the directional and spatial complexities of a musicaloundstage not even attempting to recreate a surrounding sense of envelopment. Being practical, they investigated the possibilities of simplification, and concluded that, while two channels could yield acceptable results for a solitary listener, three channels (left,center and right) would be a desirable minimum to establish the illusion of a stable frontsoundstage for a group of listeners."

quote 2(reference to what is presumably his personal experience):

"In fairness it must be said that, after over forty years of experimentation, the best two-channel stereo recordings reproduced over the right set of loudspeakers in the rightroom can be very satisfying indeed. Sadly, only a fraction of our listening experiencesfall into that category. Clearly stereo does not get us to our long-term objective."

It seems to me, that this paper does not nescarrily dismiss the possibility of stereo sounding realistic. However, it does clearly demonstrate that stereo is inadequate for reliable and versatile(more then very limited one seated position) use in realistic reproduction. Though, Toole does not specify what he means by "very satisfying indeed". I am assuming he is referring to goal of realistic reproduction, since this is the topic of the paper. Perhaps someone shoule email him for further explanation?

-Chris


Satisfying is not necessarily realistic. And that is all he stated, satisfying.
You need to listen to Tomlinson Holmans 10.2 and see iwhish is more realistic. No, Toole didn't support you and confirmed the earlier study.

mtrycraft
04-16-2004, 07:51 PM
Heh heh. I guess that is all you can say because it is so far outside your experience.

It really is that good. Don't take my word for it, though. Ask Harry Weisfeld. Ask Bob Carver. Ask Luke Manley. Ask Carl Marchisotto. Ask Tony Hawkins. Ask Arnie Nudell. Ask Jud Barber. Ask Ole Lund Christensen. The list goes on...

rw


My experience is irrelevant. Your posts have told us about your gullibility. You have graduated.
I suppose all those peole are not biased either, of course.

E-Stat
04-16-2004, 08:00 PM
My experience is irrelevant.
And how. As is you ability to perceive anything that I discussed.


I suppose all those peole are not biased either, of course.
Biased peole? What's a peole?

You have no comprehension of what dozens of industry leaders think of Harry's system. But then you acknowledged that in your first statement.

rw

hifitommy
04-16-2004, 08:00 PM
you havent the slightest idea how much a good stereo can do. and no sense in telling you AGAIN.

WmAx
04-16-2004, 08:07 PM
Satisfying is not necessarily realistic. And that is all he stated, satisfying.
You need to listen to Tomlinson Holmans 10.2 and see iwhish is more realistic. No, Toole didn't support you and confirmed the earlier study.
As I stated, someone should actually ask Toole what he meant in his statement. His statement is interesting, simply becuase what does he consider satisfying? Not being realistic satisfied him? I dont know; but the subject of the paper was realism. He was not clear as to his opinion here.

On another note, I can tell you that it does not matter how realistic Tomilson Holman's 10.2 system may be; under certain circumstances, with a certain stereo and with specific recordings, stereo does sound realistic too me, compared to live acoustic events as my memory remembered them. Is the 10.2 system going to sound more real then the isolated circumstances/variables when a stereo has sounded realistic too me? How? Is the 10.2 going to sound more realistic then live performances? Remember, it is my perception at subject here. My perception was that stereo unde special conditions sounded realistic. Simple. I could be under the influence of bias, etc.. But like my earlier post stated, if such factors can cause such a perceptual effect, then what is the problem? I'm sure a proper multi channel recordig/playback process will produce realistic effects that are reliable(unlike stereo) and can be geared towards mutliple listeners and over broader seating ranges, unliike stereo.

-Chris

WmAx
04-16-2004, 08:30 PM
And how. As is you ability to perceive anything that I discussed.


Biased peole? What's a peole?

You have no comprehension of what dozens of industry leaders think of Harry's system. But then you acknowledged that in your first statement.

rw
E-Stat, did you take any pictures of the stereo during your visit? Can I find any images of this setup somewhere online? I just like to see pics of something when it is discussed in length. :-)

Thanks.

-Chris

E-Stat
04-17-2004, 05:14 AM
E-Stat, did you take any pictures of the stereo during your visit?
Here's one of the equipment rack.

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/sm_rack.jpg">

I went to the ASO last night with Cooledge (incredible performance of Messiaen's Turangalila) and he said he has been talking with Harry Weisfeld about this VPI hybrid. Evidently, Weisfeld is going to fabricate a new base for the Scoutmaster to better mate with the TNT motor assembly.


rw

hifitommy
04-17-2004, 05:18 AM
arcici racks? they look a bit nicer than my costco GORILLA racks.

WmAx
04-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Thank you E-Stat. But where are the photos of the speakers and listening chair? :-)

-Chris


Here's one of the equipment rack.

http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/sm_rack.jpg

I went to the ASO last night with Cooledge (incredible performance of Messiaen's Turangalila) and he said he has been talking with Harry Weisfeld about this VPI hybrid. Evidently, Weisfeld is going to fabricate a new base for the Scoutmaster to better mate with the TNT motor assembly.


rw

pctower
04-17-2004, 02:00 PM
Or not as you had no way of compariong, right. You just hope it does due to cost. Or, it could sound different. Certainly he has different speakers and room.

You really have decided to take up permanent residence in the ozone layer. One may argue in good faith about the ability to diferentiate between cables, but when one is exposed to systems such as this, it is undebiable that they have entered a new dimension in sensory experience.

I don't believe any rationale human being could be exposed to such a system and disagree. I have never had the honor of visiting Seaclift, but I have been fortunate enough to hear special, high-quality systems.

For you, there is no differentiating or judgment in audio that is not subject to numerical verification. You truly must never have heard a really good high end system. You reduce the hobby to a sterile wasteland in which human experience, judgment and differentiation are held hostage to a view of the limits of human subjective experiences that removes all experiantial value to life.

You no doubt enjoy expressing this barren approach to life, but one can only wonder how much more you would enjoy exposing yourself to the wonderful experiences that are open to those who don't require numerical confirmation for ever life experience.

Pat D
04-17-2004, 04:31 PM
You really have decided to take up permanent residence in the ozone layer. One may argue in good faith about the ability to diferentiate between cables, but when one is exposed to systems such as this, it is undebiable that they have entered a new dimension in sensory experience.

I don't believe any rationale human being could be exposed to such a system and disagree. I have never had the honor of visiting Seaclift, but I have been fortunate enough to hear special, high-quality systems.

For you, there is no differentiating or judgment in audio that is not subject to numerical verification. You truly must never have heard a really good high end system. You reduce the hobby to a sterile wasteland in which human experience, judgment and differentiation are held hostage to a view of the limits of human subjective experiences that removes all experiantial value to life.

You no doubt enjoy expressing this barren approach to life, but one can only wonder how much more you would enjoy exposing yourself to the wonderful experiences that are open to those who don't require numerical confirmation for ever life experience.
Oh Phil, you have no idea what experiences mtry has had nor what his listening skills are! You go bonkers when someone makes personal attacks on you. This one makes you a first class hypocrite.

mtrycraft
04-17-2004, 07:43 PM
For you, there is no differentiating or judgment in audio that is not subject to numerical verification. You truly must never have heard a really good high end system. You reduce the hobby to a sterile wasteland in which human experience, judgment and differentiation are held hostage to a view of the limits of human subjective experiences that removes all experiantial value to life.

You no doubt enjoy expressing this barren approach to life, but one can only wonder how much more you would enjoy exposing yourself to the wonderful experiences that are open to those who don't require numerical confirmation for ever life experience.

Come now, where did I request a numerical expression of this system? Why can't I find that insistance?

Or, is it that you and they just don't like being questiond, taken to task? You just prefer a blinde obediance to your faith, it seems.

You don't question anything, it seems; maybe you do but it is so elusive. They, on the other hand would let everything fall into their belief system.
I question.

hifitommy
04-17-2004, 07:47 PM
seems to be entirely absent Pat. mtry hides behind the supposed anonymity of experience and system. its obvious that he is devoid of both. he is also not foreign to administering personal attacks, without basis i must point out.

i actually know someone that does not enjoy eating. he only does so because its necessary and that reminds me a lot of mtry. you and he are the hypocrites here. systems such as what reisides in sea cliff and some that i have personally heard myself are exceedingly involving because of the amount of detail and presence exuded.

yes, rooms and equipment are different, VERY much so.

mtrycraft
04-17-2004, 07:52 PM
On another note, I can tell you that it does not matter how realistic Tomilson Holman's 10.2 system may be; under certain circumstances, with a certain stereo and with specific recordings, stereo does sound realistic too me,

I don't doubt that at all. :)


compared to live acoustic events as my memory remembered them.


Yes, as you can remember. That is the problem, memory is not that good for small things, or larger things as time passes, unfortunately.

Is the 10.2 going to sound more realistic then live performances?

10.2 is not a live performance so it cannot be more realistic than live. But it certainly can be more realistic that 2 channels. That is the whole idea.

Remember, it is my perception at subject here.

Yes, that is what we are talking about, perception and how good it is. :)


My perception was that stereo unde special conditions sounded realistic.


Yes, that can be the perception.

Simple. I could be under the influence of bias, etc.. But like my earlier post stated, if such factors can cause such a perceptual effect, then what is the problem?

No consequences to you. I don't deny that at all. Only when that questionable perception was asked to be believed by others as being factual, then some questions are raised.



I'm sure a proper multi channel recordig/playback process will produce realistic effects that are reliable(unlike stereo) and can be geared towards mutliple listeners and over broader seating ranges, unliike stereo.

-Chris

And for that one person too:)

mtrycraft
04-17-2004, 07:58 PM
You have no comprehension of what dozens of industry leaders think of Harry's system. But then you acknowledged that in your first statement.

rw


Of course they will badmouth it in public? Or, even if there is nothing to badmouth it for, who said it is so much shoulders above anything else? You? Maybe they are just kind to your friend, nothing more.

And, its ability to differentiate better smaller differences, at issue here, has not been demonstrated by anyone, least of all you. But how could it be when your hearing is soo limited in ability. LOL.

mtrycraft
04-17-2004, 08:01 PM
Where are the speakers? That is what makes or breaks a system. Where is the listeing room? I must have missed them.
So far, it is interesting art objects.

mtrycraft
04-17-2004, 08:04 PM
systems such as what reisides in sea cliff and some that i have personally heard myself are exceedingly involving because of the amount of detail and presence exuded.

yes, rooms and equipment are different, VERY much so.

That is your opinion. Not all are equal, right. Everyone has one, or two.

hifitommy
04-17-2004, 08:36 PM
CORRECT sir!

;^)

WmAx
04-17-2004, 08:38 PM
Yes, as you can remember. That is the problem, memory is not that good for small things, or larger things as time passes, unfortunately.
That is the point. The memory is not accurate enough to always tell the difference. I believe this is exactly why in some isolated examples; stereo can sound very realistic. Same result(perceptual realism is may be possible with stereo).



Yes, that is what we are talking about, perception and how good it is. :)
Or, how bad it may be. :-)

-Chris

E-Stat
04-17-2004, 08:45 PM
But how could it be when your hearing is soo limited in ability. LOL.
You will never know ;)

rw

hifitommy
04-17-2004, 08:50 PM
typical mudslinging of someone with limited LISTENING abilities such as the quoted mtry.

pctower
04-17-2004, 09:02 PM
Oh Phil, you have no idea what experiences mtry has had nor what his listening skills are! You go bonkers when someone makes personal attacks on you. This one makes you a first class hypocrite.

Mytrcrafts has never said anything about his experience, so we can only judge from his posts. You seem to want to sound mysterious as if you are really in the "know". But that just doesn't get it. Be honest. Either admit you have no direct knowledge of his experience or come clean and tell us exactly what you know.

My comments were based on my observations of his posts and I stand by my comments.

You have repeatedly demonstrated how extremely biased you are - accordingly I discount much of what you have to say.

pctower
04-17-2004, 09:06 PM
Come now, where did I request a numerical expression of this system? Why can't I find that insistance?

Or, is it that you and they just don't like being questiond, taken to task? You just prefer a blinde obediance to your faith, it seems.

You don't question anything, it seems; maybe you do but it is so elusive. They, on the other hand would let everything fall into their belief system.
I question.

I could care less about your questioning, other than it has become unbelievably predictable and boring. Your comments about "belief" systems are wholly irrelevant and unresponsive to any point I was making. Typical mudslinging.

You are the one who has demonstrated beyond question a blind adherence to faith in an extrenely shallow and unquestioning form of "science".

E-Stat
04-18-2004, 06:35 AM
Thank you E-Stat. But where are the photos of the speakers and listening chair? :-)
Well, you do have a view of that chair's arm. Here's Alon's official pic of the Grand Exotica.

<img src="http://www.alonbyacarian.com/products/gifs/exoticagr.jpg">

rw

Pat D
04-18-2004, 08:18 AM
Mytrcrafts has never said anything about his experience, so we can only judge from his posts. You seem to want to sound mysterious as if you are really in the "know". But that just doesn't get it. Be honest. Either admit you have no direct knowledge of his experience or come clean and tell us exactly what you know.

My comments were based on my observations of his posts and I stand by my comments.

You have repeatedly demonstrated how extremely biased you are - accordingly I discount much of what you have to say.
Actually, nothing in mtry's posts corresponds to your ad hominem attacks, which are based on pure speculation. As often happens, pure speculation results in errors, and you are in error here. Since you lack the facts, you simply make up some in order to discredit him.

Your alternative is not the only one, so you are setting up a false dichotomy. I have visited mtry and have a pretty good idea what he has and the level of his knowledge and experience. You haven't . What I know about him is really none of your business.

mtrycraft
04-18-2004, 10:33 AM
I could care less about your questioning, other than it has become unbelievably predictable and boring. Your comments about "belief" systems are wholly irrelevant and unresponsive to any point I was making. Typical mudslinging.

You are the one who has demonstrated beyond question a blind adherence to faith in an extrenely shallow and unquestioning form of "science".


Better to rely on science than to be blinded by faith.
Interesting that the faithful is so predictable as well, isn't it? Of course, they do not and cannot change their beliefs. Science is self correcting on the other hand.
Mudslinging? That depends on your viewing angle, isn't it?

mtrycraft
04-18-2004, 10:40 AM
You will never know ;)

rw


Ah, so now you are claiming some extraordinary abilities for your hearing? That is funny. Actually it is most likely average in the bell curve. Why is that so hard to predict?

E-Stat
04-18-2004, 11:45 AM
Ah, so now you are claiming some extraordinary abilities for your hearing? That is funny. Actually it is most likely average in the bell curve. Why is that so hard to predict?
You really don't get it, do you? It is not a matter of "superior" hearing capabilities. There is a vast difference between data and information. Your shallow response punctuates your lack of experience. Those who live only through the eyes of others will never see. I'll defer to Leonardo da Vinci for my reply:

"Experience never errs; what alone may err is our judgement, which predicts effects that cannot be produced by our experiments."

rw

Geoffcin
04-18-2004, 02:55 PM
You really don't get it, do you? It is not a matter of "superior" hearing capabilities. There is a vast difference between data and information. Your shallow response punctuates your lack of experience. Those who live only through the eyes of others will never see. I'll defer to Leonardo da Vinci for my reply:

"Experience never errs; what alone may err is our judgement, which predicts effects that cannot be produced by our experiments."

rw

Hi E-stat

It's wasted bandwith on Mtr. From the body of his posts it's obvious that he's absolutely sure of his facts, even though he's never done any observations of his own.

hifitommy
04-18-2004, 04:08 PM
....................... ;^)

mtrycraft
04-18-2004, 04:31 PM
Hi E-stat

It's wasted bandwith on Mtr. From the body of his posts it's obvious that he's absolutely sure of his facts, even though he's never done any observations of his own.


My facts? You, nor they have naot shown any facts, just empty claims. You better examin all your claims; where are the facts? Nowhere.

mtrycraft
04-18-2004, 04:31 PM
You really don't get it, do you? It is not a matter of "superior" hearing capabilities. There is a vast difference between data and information. Your shallow response punctuates your lack of experience. Those who live only through the eyes of others will never see. I'll defer to Leonardo da Vinci for my reply:

"Experience never errs; what alone may err is our judgement, which predicts effects that cannot be produced by our experiments."

rw

Nothing more is needed for an empty claim.

E-Stat
04-18-2004, 05:30 PM
Nothing more is needed for an empty claim.
If you're lucky, in time you will know.

Congratulations on a rare post containing no misspelled words. You had two in the last one.

rw

hifitommy
04-18-2004, 07:35 PM
key word-observations. whereas we have been labeled in the past as subjectivists vs the objectivists of the dbt type, harry (hp of tas) hit the nail on the head with 'observationists'.

when i have been fortunate to have been present for demos of the highest quality, and been immersed in a wash of detail before unheard, i felt lucky to be able to observe these differences.

likewise, i have observed sales hype in a couple of well respected stores by overeager moneygrabbers, especially when subwoofers were first coming to the fore (back in the 70s). at both of these demos, i called the salesperson to task and met with ferocity people get testy when you threaten their moneybag.

i was already accustomed to low frequencies well done and integrated with the rest of the sonic spectrum. what you are more or less saying now is that we ( I ) only imagine that the sound i hear is of high quality. believe what you will. i will continue to slap the good ole boys on the back when they hear some imagined excellence at hp's place (oh, and did you know about the secret handshake and decoder ring?) and you all can sit nodding and yessing to each other over your graphs and statistical tables.

topspeed
04-18-2004, 07:51 PM
Well, as I started this thread, I'm going to try to end it.

E-stat,
Thanks again for sharing your experience with those of us that care. It sounds like it was mind expanding which, as I noted, everything we do in life should be. Music is just one of the mediums that we as audiophiles or enthusiasts choose to transport us to a different level; physical, metaphysical, or emotional. Personally, I relate your experience at HP's to mine a few weeks ago behind the wheel of a 550hp 996 turbo. Talk about altering your base-line!

Mtry,
Believe it or not, I actually can understand your point of view although I rarely agree with it. You have every right to be skeptical and point out different opinions to newbies. However, as I was asking E-stat about his experience, this wasn't really the right thread for you to come in and trash. If you have personal differences w/ E-stat, hifitommy, and just about everyone else here, do it on your own time. Birds of a feather flock together and son, you're in the wrong flock. This is a public forum so I can't keep you from posting, but you really are preaching to deaf ears here so why waste everyone's time? Jump on your podium and preach to newbies, wmax, phil d, and whoever else thinks like you do. It's safe to say that E-stat, hifitommy, bturk, geoffcin, et. al. would not be people you choose to hang with. Think about it, the people you hang out with are just like you. Human nature, nothing more. This is not a slam btw, I'm just trying to keep these threads positive instead degenerating into the same mindless arguments every single time.

OK, now I'm off MY podium. Thanks everyone and try the roast beef!

mtrycraft
04-19-2004, 10:40 AM
I made a rather simple post: maybe yes, maybe no.
They couldn't resist responding. They hijacked the post. Yes, I responded to their posts too. Snowball rolling down hill. Life is like that, some good, some bad. Time to move on, too short and in the larger picture, it is meaningless.