Conrad Johnson/ Vincent preamps

[frenchmon]

with Conrad Johnson mono blocks, T+A CDP, ZU speakers and Siltech cabling. I knew the Vincent performed well in my system, but you really dont know what you have until you stack it up and shoot it out with other gear....that is when you see how well you've spent your money.....or not.

I want to say out front, none of this is meant to slam Mr.Peabody. He along with 2 other guys here, Leroy and Poppachubby I consider good friends and these three I have spoken to many many times outside this forum and welcome their advice without hesitation.

I also want to say to all those who have doubts about Vincent. I have heard and read a lot of the negative print about it being a rebaggaged Shengya. Well I've read where Vincent said they are a German company that builds in China at the Shengya plant and I have read where Shengya its self has confirmed this and said their own products, (Shengya Electronic) shares some of the VIncent designs but Vincent uses more expensive parts.

Bühler Elektronik which is a German company and to which out of grew Sintron, the parent German company of Vincent. It was an engineer and managing director, Mr. Uwe Bartelo, who worked for Bühler Elektronik that was the founder and sought out high end Chinese manufacturing for the high end manufacturing of the Vincent product with very carfull Continuous quality control. Of course that high end manufacturing was Shengya Electronics.

So I am perfectly satisfied with Vincent audio and will continue to purchase their products if needed, which are afordable with performance that goes way beyond what you pay.

So when I first got to Peabodys, we listened to the CJ gear first. I forget the first tune we listened to...it was brief as Mr. P said a few things about the bass of the ZU and how he really felt it was not good at all. I listened and while not trying to be to negative about his speakers I did say I agreed that it should be slamming. But to my thinking the overal sound was just not popping the way I like my music. Then MrP and I went into another room where he had the Emotiva CDP and Emotiva preamp and Bryston and Parasound amps bi amped to a set of Klipsch Heresy's and Emotiva sub woofer and he proudly turned that rig up to ear bleed levels to get his bass fix. It was fun.

Then back to the CJ rig to listen some more and he put on Alisha Keys. This is where I really got a good listen to the CJ/ZU speakers. Man the sound was recessed and to me it had this sound like when you put both your hands around your mouth and yell. The supper tweeter in my opinion was louder than the entire sound coming from the ZU speakers....the bass was like it was not even there. It was not strong at all, and the whole sound was like it had no pop or life at all. No emotion or romance It was just there. I will say though it was thick and warm it was clear and the high notes coming from the supper tweeter hung in the air, but it was also really warm and colored to the point of having no emotion or excitement. Of course these where my thoughts as I was listening. Dont know if this is the CJ house sound or not.

As Mr. Peabody was scrolling through a few more songs on the Alesha Keys CD I noticed the lack of bass and then turned to Peabody and said the ZU should have more bottom end....should be slamming. That big speaker putting out week bass as it was is no good. Two big 18 inch woofers with bass that just sounds flat. But the tweeter was the brightest thing there ahead of every thing else....and the notes from that tweeter where just hanging in the air. But at this point Peabody nor I knew just how bad the sound was, nor did either of us have any idea that it was not the fault of the ZU speakers.....until we swapped out the CJ CT5 preamp with the Vincent SA-T1 preamp.

At this point as Peabody was swapping the two preamps, I was thinking man, I hope the Vincent can perform as well as the CJ. (not knowing it was not the speakers that made the sound so blah) I knew the Vicnent was good, but hey....Im going up against Conrad Johnson...a staple in the audio world of gear.
So the swap was on...and then we hit the power botton and listened. The first 5 minutes we both just listend and to my ears the Vincent sounded ok seeing the tubes in the Vincent was still cold and not warmed up. We both listened and said nothing. Then as the tubes got warmer I could hear it. The ZU speakers came to life and Peabody knew it. The Zu all of a sudden had a bottom end. We both continued to listen. I noticed the sound stage was not recessed at all. Peabody even said the sound stage was more forward meaning it was not as if we where sitting in the back row. The treble/supper tweeter was not as out front of the music as it had before. The overal presentation was just great like it should be. Peabody asked me if this was a high current preamp. The thickness of the sound was gone. there was more life in the music...things where popping and to my ears the ZU was like it had a transfussion. Peabody made the comment that the Vincent had a darker background. I am telling the truth...this is when I and MrP discovered that the CJ was a much warmer, colored preamp that can not drive the ZU to have a more fuller sound. The Vincent gave the ZU speakers the much needed juice to make it come alive. I mean every faze of the music was hitting hard. At this point I asked Peabody to switch out the ZU with the Dynaudio's. So we made the switch....and man I discovered I had been giving the Dyns a bad rep. While they are not as lively in the upper ranges of the sound as I like, they where not the boring speakers I had thought they where. It was the saturation of a very warm, colored, lifeless sound of the CJ that made them sound like they where boring to me. Now with the Vincent, the Dyns where all of a sudden alive! They had a tweeter that had a little sizzle, but the midrange was rich and plush and the bottom end bass was hitting even harder. At this point Peabody put on Venessa Williams and her voice was very rich and warm the way I like it....the romance was back in Peabodys system...full of emotion.

We put the CJ back in place and we got more of the same thick colored no bass no life sound as before, and we them put the Vincent back in and had life again. We then put the CJ back in and played some vinyl on the Rega p-3 with the Dynavector cart. We noticed the speakers had a little more bass through the TT. I think it was becasue of the Phono amp that Peabody has. BUt I can say this with confidence and not trying to hurt Peabodys feelings. The Vincent out performed the Conrad Johnson. What the CJ did do better than the Vincent was have a little more detailed bass line...but other than that, the Vincent just made the system sound really good and much better than the CJ preamp.
I also want to say I am not saying that all CJ gear sounds like this but the two CJ Peabody has had, they both had that same very thick, warm, colored sound. Now the CJ power amps that he has are great, While they are tube they are almost as tight as any SS amp, but they are a very good amp especially matched with the Vincent....but the preamp in my opinion is not what I would want in a preamp. Peabody even said him self, that I got a very good deal on the Vincent. The Retail price of the Vincent SA-T1 preamp is $1500. Because it had been used as a demo, I was able to get it for $900.

I will be sending a copy of this to Peabody via email. I've told Peabody he should do some tube rolling to see if that helps...if not he should consider another preamp.


In the words of my good buddy Poppachubby....the VIncent is "a giant killer"

[harley .guy07]

Well I was wondering this weekend how the Vincent would do but I had no idea it would be that good in Mr. P's system. When I heard my Audience 60's on his CJ stuff I did notice a dark side that just did not seem to open up the speakers like they do now that I have them on my Nuforce Preamp with my Adcom power amp. Man I wish I could have been there to include my Nuforce in the mix just to see what it could bring to the table as well because it has been called a giant killer in its own right as well. And I love the way it makes my Dyn's sound in my system so I figure it would really do well with his Dyn's and going through his CJ amps. maybe sometime when my semester gets to a more stable point I can shoot up there some weekend and we can repeat this test and put my Nuforce in there just for fun.

[frenchmon]

Well I was wondering this weekend how the Vincent would do but I had no idea it would be that good in Mr. P's system. When I heard my Audience 60's on his CJ stuff I did notice a dark side that just did not seem to open up the speakers like they do now that I have them on my Nuforce Preamp with my Adcom power amp. Man I wish I could have been there to include my Nuforce in the mix just to see what it could bring to the table as well because it has been called a giant killer in its own right as well. And I love the way it makes my Dyn's sound in my system so I figure it would really do well with his Dyn's and going through his CJ amps. maybe sometime when my semester gets to a more stable point I can shoot up there some weekend and we can repeat this test and put my Nuforce in there just for fun.

Hi Harley...man I was wrong about the Dyns, sorry I was critical of them when I should not have been, I had no idea it was the CJ house sound. While they are not as lively in the upper range as I like them....they are no way as flat in the upper ranges as I thought. The Vincent had the Dyns tweeter and midrange sounding really good... even had them hitting harder in the bass more so than the CJ. I betcha that Nuforce brings out the best in your Dyns.

Well, I hope Peabody Rolls his tubes...maybe that was the problem, but I dont know. I think those CJ preamps come with very good tubes..His previous pre had the same Character.

[Mr Peabody]

The CJ was more recessed with a mid-hall presentation but in my opinion the CJ won in detail and musicality. The Vincent was too aggressive for my taste. I have also had different preamps in my system before and none acted like the Vincent, it was like the outputs were hot, meaning high voltage or it was voiced to response extremes. Different tastes make the world go around.

[Mr Peabody]

I also play the Zu with the Linn amp with the same effect. I have not heard any preamp behave the way the Vincent did. The Vincent sound stage was much more compressed than the CJ.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Now this is making more sense. We have a difference of opinion and that happens all the time. My salesguy at my local Hifi shop has been in the business for a long time and he still prefers metal tweeters over soft dome. He likes the music with detail (as he says). We are always having our little games when we have a speaker faceoff. I've never had a preamp in my system, so I'm not familiar with the effects they have on the sound.

[frenchmon]

Hey MrP...nice to see you here! Did you get it fixed?

As far as detail....I disagree. The CJ was flat...very flat! The only better thing I noticed that you pointed out was that the CJ had a little more bass detail but that was about it, the detail was there as the Vincent got its tubes warmed up. The Conrad had no life...just very laid back and lifeless. As far as aggressive, I guess if one is use to listening to such laid back very very warm sound, the Vincent would seem agressive....and the same for me I guess. I've never liked gear that had no emotion or romance.

And besides....the Emotiva/Bryston/Parasound/Klipsch rig you have in the other room was way more agressive than the Vincent with your own rig....and you crank that thing up ear bleed levels....Your aggressive statement makes no sense at all.
Hey...I have an Idea. Put your Emotiva preamp in the CJ rig and see if it produces life in your system. See if its agressive. See if it can produce bass to your ZU and Dyns...then come back here and tell us...or if you like I can come over to witness what happens. How about that! Lets do that the next time we get together...I am now wondering what the Emotiva will do...you would have a hybrid rig then, and I wonder if you would think the Emotiva was hot!

You yourself said the ZU was not producing the bass the way it should...so the Vincent gives it a shot in the arm, brings the sound stage foward, and not recessed like the CJ made it sound (BTW, the recessed sound stage was one of your biggest complaints next to the no bass) settles the ZU supper tweeter down a bit, and produces life to your system that your CJ could not and you have a problem all of a sudden? You did not seem to have that problem the other night. The Vincent sorta settled it down and made your system sound better than what the CJ did. But hey, I'l let you have the last word...I am not going down this road with you...we are friends.

I told you that Jack and Harley wanted a report back....and I told you when I first got there that I was hopeing the Vincent does not get embarrassed by the CJ. Afterwards I asked you what I should say... you said to tell them the Vincent was more aggressive. If the CJ is laid back, then the Vincent has to be more aggressive....that goes without saying it.. I did not have to say it...especially like it was a bad thing, but I did tell the whole story We discovered the CJ is flat....laid back....very very warm with a thickness that is undesirable. And if you really like that laid back , very warm no life sound, why shop around for more aggressive speakers with sparkle in the upper ranges like the ZU and Klipsch speakers? You are trying to sell the Dyns and ZU in favor for more agressive speakers with a lively agressive top end... You make no scene Peabody.

Neither you nor I was prepared for what we heard. The Vincent gave your system life that it desperatly needed. But you never know these things until you switch out different gear as we did...and as far as musicality...how can a more laid back sound that is very warm and flat be the more musical? Does not make any sense? I told you that you should roll the tubes, or find others who have that same amp online and find out what tubes they use and you pretty much agreed.

And you say the outputs where hot and voiced to response extremes??? Come on Peabody! The Vincent is just a preamp man....Go ahead and make excuses. You even told me I got a very good deal on the Vincent, but now its to agressive, hot, and voiced to extremes? Ok I gotcha now Peabody...

The CJ is just to laid back and very warm. You always talk about McIntosh being to warm.. and Audio Research not to your liking.....Well your CJ is even warmer than any McIntosh I've ever heard.... to the point it cant even drive your ZU or Dyns to the point where they sound right....So because the Vincent made the ZU produce bass, to which your CJ could not, (and by the way, that was your biggest complaint) the Vincent has to have hot out puts and have high voltage or it was voiced to response extremes???? Ok I gotcha now Peabody.

I know and you know that your CJ preamp is either broke, needs tube rolling, or its just how it sounds....and that night you even pretty much acknowledged that the CJ was very warm, laid back with a thick presentation and lifeless after hearing what the Vincent did. So if you want to have a change of heart now go ahead. I'm not trying to upstage you or embarrass you. And you can have the last word...I wont respond to it....I am your friend, but you know and I know....kindly dont be embarrassed...just move on and from the CJ if its not really to your liking....taste change in this business,,,thats part of what this hobby is all about. Audiophiles fall out with their gear alots....dont put your stock in a name brand...but in its performance...and the CJ did not perform and you know it....the Vincent made your speakers come alive...I heard it, you heard it and we both know it. Go ahead and have the last word it you want it....other will read it and perhaps respond...I wont.

[Mr Peabody]

Keep in mind I also use a Marantz preamp with a Linn amp and the Zu response is similar in effect to what happens with the CJ. I have never heard a preamp behave the way the Vincent did. One other difference I forgot to mention the Vincent sound stage was quite a bit more compressed than the CJ.

A "dark" background is something I like, it's what I liked in Krell and CJ alike.

[Mr Peabody]

Keep in mind I also have the Marantz preamp and Linn amp I drove the Zu with and the overall character didn't change much on the Zu through that system. The Vincent behaved like no other preamp i had heard before. The Vincent sound stage was more compressed than the CJ as well. I believe that Frenchmon and I listen for different aspects of sound. He didn't notice the CJ bass line walking more and having more detail until I pointed it out.

A "dark" background is something I like, I had it with the Krell as well as the CJ

[frenchmon]

If you cant drive the ZU with the LINN you have problems in your system.....the problem is not your ZU
Speakers....Poutry or who ever has them is driving his with a SET amp.


LINN AV 5125 Amplifiers Reviews



MSRP: $ 2000.00
Designed to provide a compact high density amplification solution capable of delivering pitch accurate sound quality for multi-channel home theatre and multi-channel music. Five adaptive demand driven channels of Class V modular power amplification High density switch mode power supply and Class V amplification. 500W power output into 8 Ohms Power amplifier power saving standby mode. Accepts internal active cards Bi-wireable loudspeaker outputs. Additional line out for daisy-chaining channels Switchable voltage ranges for worldwide operation
Type 5-channel class V modular power amplifier
Voltage range 115 > 230 VAC
Power consumption in standby 10W
Maximum power consumption 1000W into 8 Ohms
Maximum power output per channel 230W into 4 Ohms and 125W into 8 Ohms
Dimensions H 3 inches x W 15 inches x D 14 inches
Weight (11lbs)

[frenchmon]

IF you cant drive the ZU with the LINN amp you really got problems...and Its not your ZU speakers.

....LINN AV 5125 Amplifiers Reviews



MSRP: $ 2000.00
Designed to provide a compact high density amplification solution capable of delivering pitch accurate sound quality for multi-channel home theatre and multi-channel music. Five adaptive demand driven channels of Class V modular power amplification High density switch mode power supply and Class V amplification. 500W power output into 8 Ohms Power amplifier power saving standby mode. Accepts internal active cards Bi-wireable loudspeaker outputs. Additional line out for daisy-chaining channels Switchable voltage ranges for worldwide operation
Type 5-channel class V modular power amplifier
Voltage range 115 > 230 VAC
Power consumption in standby 10W
Maximum power consumption 1000W into 8 Ohms
Maximum power output per channel 230W into 4 Ohms and 125W into 8 Ohms
Dimensions H 3 inches x W 15 inches x D 14 inches
Weight (11lbs)

[LeRoy]

Hey Frenchmon and Mr. P.,

Based on what's been remarked in this thread....I wish I could have made the drive up there to partake in some of the audio madness myself.

Glad you see you back online Mr. P.

You know, my local buddy always tells me....audio is like chili...you can buy the ingredients but you still gotta know how to make chili...

Sometimes system synergy can be realized at ridiculously affordable prices when compared to the pedigree brands....it's always a real charge to be able to pull it off....

Mr. P, are you considering to A/B the CJ pre against another brand for verification/validation purposes?

[frenchmon]

Hi Leroy...nice to see you. I find it odd that a $4500 preamp cant drive a pair of speakers well enough to get bass....and the speakers are 98 dB SPL @ 1 Watt, 1 meter. But my preamp that retails for $1500 that Peabody says hot can drive them with no problem. (OF course that is Peabodys excuse he made up for his not being able to drive them. IF that preamp was as he says, it would have been exposed already by all the professional reviewers who have reviewed thet preamp over the years.) Peabodys argument is flawed. Why cant a $4500 preamp drive those speakers well enough to make them come alive? Nor can they properly drive his dynaudio either,

[blackraven]

My local high end dealer has a pair of Zu's in the store and he says they need proper preamp matching to sound good. His opinion of them were not very high. I got to hear them and they were nothing special.

Anyway it sounds like Mr. P needs to get his CJ checked out or maybe do some tube rolling. I think he would be pleasently surprised at what a difference it can make.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I know when Adam had his ZU's in for review he had to find the right combo too. He seemed to have the best luck with a Melody AN-211 and a Mystere ia11. Which wouldn't help Mr P because they wouldn't have enough juice for the Dyn's. Mr. P's had the CJ for a while right? Has it always sounded this way Frenchie or has the sound changed?

[frenchmon]

I know when Adam had his ZU's in for review he had to find the right combo too. He seemed to have the best luck with a Melody AN-211 and a Mystere ia11. Which wouldn't help Mr P because they wouldn't have enough juice for the Dyn's. Mr. P's had the CJ for a while right? Has it always sounded this way Frenchie or has the sound changed?

Hi jack.

It has always sounded this way. But neither Peabody nor I knew it was the CJ. I noticed a long time ago that the sound was thick. It has always had detail, but things where not popping...it was always sorta laid back in its presentation. And I made my concerns known to Peabody a long time ago. I suspect Peabody has been listening to it so long he really never tripped off it.

After a while I started noticing it was a very sweet sound....a little too sweet thick and no life. Peabody has always said McIntosh was to warm and he did not like it. We even listen to some McIntosh a few times and he said it was to warm and that Classe gear was warm and boring. I never told Peabody, but to me he was always describing his own gear and not McIntosh nor Classe. I (wrongly) thought it was the Dynaudio speakers so I had a distaste for them because (I thought) they where just sounding flat. I then took my Canton Speakers over to MrPs house and they where much more lively than the Dyns but had no bass. Even Peabody said they had no bass. The Canton speakers where book shelves and should have had more bass than they had at Peabodys. We sat the Canton Book shelves on top of the Dyns that night, so I just chalked it up to the Cantons sitting on the Dyns and thats why no bass. Canton are lively speakers and they do have a bottom end as in most good book shelves but they did not at Peabodys house that night. When I got them back home the bass was back and I told Peabody about it...and this was before I got the Vincent...at that time I was still using my Rotel preamp.

It was at this point that Peabody decided he needed new speakers and saw that the Dyns where not producing the upper effects in the tweeter and sought out a more lively speaker that not only had the bottom end of the Dynaudio's but also the upper range extension like the Cantons. He has tried Klipsch and ZU speakers and they could not produce the bottom end like he wanted.... and I listened to both speakers with the CJ preamp and the bass was not right.

So now enter the Vincent Preamp that made the ZU's sing with glorious bass and a more settled supper tweeter...and the Dynaudio with a more fuller bass and glorious tweeter. As i said in the other post....the CJ had a little more defind detail in the bass line but it was a boring sound that had no punch and could not hit hard...and Peabody knows it.

Jack, I don't know why Peabody is sorta in denial....it happens all the time in the audiophile world. If it did not happen...we would not have all that wonderful gear on audiogon just waiting to find a new home. In this business after a while, we swap out gear for new gear that satisfies us. The CJ is either not working properly, needs to have its tubes rolled, or its just the house sound of CJ. I have been telling Peabody for a while now he needs to roll his tubes

[harley .guy07]

maybe the Zu Audios are just finicky picky speakers that need just the right thing to make them sound good, that would sure explain why so many are on the gon for sale or at least they were a short time ago. As for audio opinions I would of had to have been there myself to get the full effect of what both of you are saying but it sounds like that both of you have different tastes and that is that. Frenchmon says he likes the sound of his Vincent and Mr. P says he preferred the CJ. I have heard one of the systems and while it did have a different sound character than I am used to it also offered something that I was not expecting and while I love the sound of my Dyn's in my system they did have soundstage depth and bloom unlike my system. I just wish I could have been there to give my 2 cents and also to have been able to put my Nuforce in the mix as well.

[Poultrygeist]

A good SET amp combined with a full range driver ( Zu ) with no crossover or a simple 2-way using minimal crossover parts on the tweeter only ( Zu ), has a purity and depth that you simply don't find in more conventional systems. It is a benchmark for coherency, and noted for it's ability to create hauntingly real holography sound stage. Bass and dynamics with this combination sound more realistic in part from the tremendous speed and in part from the coherency.

I like the CJ preamp in my system because it works well with the Paramour 2a3 SET monoblocks which bring out the very best in the Zu's. It's taken me a half hour to write these few sentances as I am listening to this very combination and am totally distracted.

With full range speakers anything other than a SET amp is apples and oranges.

[Mr Peabody]

I did not give you an opinion on the Vincent Frenchie because I knew from the Marantz discussion you are overly sensitive and not exactly open minded, and the Vincent is your new baby. I knew you'd act like this and tried to avoid it but you had to trash my gear.

First of all I had the Emo in my system when I first got it and it did not behave like the Vincent, I actually prefer the Emo over the Vincent if I had to pick one. I also drove the Zu Audio with my Krell which to my surprise had less bass than the CJ. So with all the analysis I have the Vincent is the abnormal piece, for better or worse. There is nothing wrong with my preamp. I believe the Zu just need certain type of gear to drive them and apparently it's not what I have.

Unfortunately, I still cannot access the forum from home but I risked posted from work since you trashed my gear so bad. So whoever reads this wants to go on the assumption that Vincent is better than Krell, Marantz, Linn & CJ, so be it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I did not give you an opinion on the Vincent Frenchie because I knew from the Marantz discussion you are overly sensitive and not exactly open minded, and the Vincent is your new baby. I knew you'd act like this and tried to avoid it but you had to trash my gear.

First of all I had the Emo in my system when I first got it and it did not behave like the Vincent, I actually prefer the Emo over the Vincent if I had to pick one. I also drove the Zu Audio with my Krell which to my surprise had less bass than the CJ. So with all the analysis I have the Vincent is the abnormal piece, for better or worse. There is nothing wrong with my preamp. I believe the Zu just need certain type of gear to drive them and apparently it's not what I have.

Unfortunately, I still cannot access the forum from home but I risked posted from work since you trashed my gear so bad. So whoever reads this wants to go on the assumption that Vincent is better than Krell, Marantz, Linn & CJ, so be it.

Mr. P, it's great to have you back. I for one would never assume that one persons gear is better than anothers. Better is such a subjective word. You, Harley and I love our Dyns, but we would never say they were better than Frenchie's Cantons. We all prefer different things and that's what makes this hobby so much fun.

There are a lot of members here who like the sound of tube gear, and there are members who prefer solid state. They are completely different sounds, but they both have a place in the audio world because not everybody likes vanilla. Hopefully you can show Frenchie that there is nothing wrong with your CJ, it's just a difference of opinion.

[frenchmon]

You know Peabody....you said I had a really good deal with the Vincent....you even acknowledge your CJ was really warm, and could not produce the bass for the ZU. When I said the same things at you house about how warm and thick and lifeless and the CJ not being able to produce bass and the VIncent could you even agreed....and you have this look on your face like you could not believe it. But this is about you thinking im trashing your beloved expensive gear! Thats what this is about...I even told you I was going to report what happended.

So go ahead and try to save face man.....you know that CJ preamp could not drive the ZU....now the Emotivea cant drive them, nor the LINN , or your Marantz. And btw, your CJ sounds warmer than any Marantz I've heard. You even trashed Marantz Reference talking about it was to lifeless....but when the tables are turned on you, you want to say it aint so! So you make things up about the VIncent being hot and voiced to be more than what it is....you are some kinda work Peabody...but thats ok, its not the first time....I've taken notice how you always get this way about stuff on these forums.....even when I was living back in Carolina years ago and was just a lurker then I remember you getting into a big argument with some guy over Krell gear, I've seen you arguments with Terrence about stuff but thats alright Peabody...you are always the correct one. I bow to you...my VIncent is Hot, and voiced to be more than what it is, and there is nothing wrong with your CJ, Hey I have an idea! Why dont you go out and get a HOT and VOICED Vincent! That way you can drive your ZU and Dynaudio speakers the way they where meant to be and all you got to do is sell your Name Brand CJ...some body will by it...after all its a Conrad Johnson....an audio staple.

So now we have Krell, Marantz, CJ, Emotiva, and LINN that cant drive the ZU speakers. What about your Parasound, and your Bryston Peabody???? Can they drive the ZU? Wow!!!! So the Vincent is the abnormal gear here that drove your ZU and Dyns like they have never been driven before. Sounds like you need to be trying to buy some Vincent gear Peabody because according to you...its the only preamp on the market that can drive ZU. Naw its just that your CJ may be over rated at best! Face it!

[frenchmon]

Mr. P, it's great to have you back. I for one would never assume that one persons gear is better than anothers. Better is such a subjective word. You, Harley and I love our Dyns, but we would never say they were better than Frenchie's Cantons. We all prefer different things and that's what makes this hobby so much fun.

There are a lot of members here who like the sound of tube gear, and there are members who prefer solid state. They are completely different sounds, but they both have a place in the audio world because not everybody likes vanilla. Hopefully you can show Frenchie that there is nothing wrong with your CJ, it's just a difference of opinion.

Hi Jack...I hope there is something wrong with Peabodys CJ. Because if its not something wrong, then that model has some serious flaws. It has always had that same sound but neither Peabody or I knew it. We always thought it was speakers. The Vincent exposed the CJ when we swapped it out. The ZU and the Dyns seemed like they where fully powered with the Vincent. Both speaker where hitting hard like they are designed to be. Every faze of the sound was improved. Even the super tweeter on the ZU seemed to settle down and be more intune with the rest of the ZU sound and the bass was full. The Dyns has a more noticeable mid and highs. I was really floored by the Dyns and what they where doing. The Vincent while tubes is not saturated with warmth nor is it laid back. Its lively and forward. Not like as forward as Krell, and not recessed like the CJ made the ZU sound. Its not in your face. Its just a very musical preamp. I have never heard a preamp sound like Peabodys CJ pre. WHen that thing first came out, it was said to be the best of both worlds and MrP even siad that is what is being said. Well tubes having the best of both worlds is suppose to be a more lively tube SS sound. Have a very tight bottom end. The CT6 does not even come close. The Vincent is the tube which sounds like the best of both worlds.

And I suspect Blackravens VA hybrid amps are more like the best of both worlds as well.....the CJ CT6 is more laid back, uninspiring, flat, and really warm. Is it suppose to sound like that and not be able to drive the bottom end of speakers rated at 98DB's and make the tweeter too out front from the rest of the music? I hope not. I hope its just a matter of tube rolling. If Peabody wants me to come help with rolling I will gladly come....but I hope he does not punch me out!;)

[frenchmon]

OK, so I have been following this thread and wondering why all the focus is solely on the Pre-Amp for driving speakers.

I have 1 pre amp but 2 amps and 2 pairs of speakers. Amp A drives one set of speakers properly where Amp B does not. When I swap the speakers in my system, Amp B drives set 2 better than Amp A. But all 4 tests are using the same Pre Amp.

So why all the focus on just the Pre? Did anyone consider that the Amps may not be matched correctly with the speakers?

Were any tests done by running the source right to the Amps bypassing the Pre altogether?

My Counterpoint NPS400 does not drive my Dynaudio 82s the same as my Stratos, while the Stratos does not drive the Clearfields as good as the Counterpoint. Both using a VAC CLA1 MKII Pre Amp.

According to Peabody...nothing in his house can drive the ZU...at least not until I came over with my Vincent! And he says the Marantz, LINN, Emotiva, CJ, or Krell can not drive the ZU. I find that odd.

[Hyfi]

You know Peabody....you said I had a really good deal with the Vincent....you even acknowledge your CJ was really warm, and could not produce the bass for the ZU. When I said the same things at you house about how warm and thick and lifeless and the CJ not being able to produce bass and the VIncent could you even agreed....and you have this look on your face like you could not believe it. But this is about you thinking im trashing your beloved expensive gear! Thats what this is about...I even told you I was going to report what happended.

So go ahead and try to save face man.....you know that CJ preamp could not drive the ZU....now the Emotivea cant drive them, nor the LINN , or your Marantz. And btw, your CJ sounds warmer than any Marantz I've heard. You even trashed Marantz Reference talking about it was to lifeless....but when the tables are turned on you, you want to say it aint so! So you make things up about the VIncent being hot and voiced to be more than what it is....you are some kinda work Peabody...but thats ok, its not the first time....I've taken notice how you always get this way about stuff on these forums.....even when I was living back in Carolina years ago and was just a lurker then I remember you getting into a big argument with some guy over Krell gear, I've seen you arguments with Terrence about stuff but thats alright Peabody...you are always the correct one. I bow to you...my VIncent is Hot, and voiced to be more than what it is, and there is nothing wrong with your CJ, Hey I have an idea! Why dont you go out and get a HOT and VOICED Vincent! That way you can drive your ZU and Dynaudio speakers the way they where meant to be and all you got to do is sell your Name Brand CJ...some body will by it...after all its a Conrad Johnson....an audio staple.

So now we have Krell, Marantz, CJ, Emotiva, and LINN that cant drive the ZU speakers. What about your Parasound, and your Bryston Peabody???? Can they drive the ZU? Wow!!!! So the Vincent is the abnormal gear here that drove your ZU and Dyns like they have never been driven before. Sounds like you need to be trying to buy some Vincent gear Peabody because according to you...its the only preamp on the market that can drive ZU. Naw its just that your CJ may be over rated at best! Face it!

OK, so I have been following this thread and wondering why all the focus is solely on the Pre-Amp for driving speakers.

I have 1 pre amp but 2 amps and 2 pairs of speakers. Amp A drives one set of speakers properly where Amp B does not. When I swap the speakers in my system, Amp B drives set 2 better than Amp A. But all 4 tests are using the same Pre Amp.

So why all the focus on just the Pre? Did anyone consider that the Amps may not be matched correctly with the speakers?

Were any tests done by running the source right to the Amps bypassing the Pre altogether?

My Counterpoint NPS400 does not drive my Dynaudio 82s the same as my Stratos, while the Stratos does not drive the Clearfields as good as the Counterpoint. Both using a VAC CLA1 MKII Pre Amp.

[frenchmon]

This is Poultygeist post from 11-09-2010, 04:44 PM talking about his 2.5 watt MINI WATT amp driving the ZU.


The Omens arrived today and I'm glad I had help getting the beasts in the house. With a 12 inch square foot print and three feet high they are still very heavy to move around. The ghost black cabinets have faint swirls of smokey charcoal cascading through out the grain for a very interesting and pleasing effect. They won the wife over based on looks alone. She thinks all my speakers sound good so looks are the deciding factor. Incredibly well packed they made the 5 day trip from Salt Lake City to Columbia, SC without a hitch.

Out of the box the bass was way boomy on my hardwoods until I placed throw rugs under them. They have finger ports on the bottom and need to be elevated 1/4 inch or more ( I say more ). They come with a hardfloor feet ( ball end as Zu calls them ) which appear to be nothing more than threaded bolts ground smooth. I'll be using the heavy duty spikes as they will give higher evelevation even if it means buying some better looking small rugs. I think I'll appreciate the bass even more if I can raise them an inch off the floor. I already know the sub will not be needed.

My 2.5 wpc Miniwatt drives them effortless in my 16x16 room but with just a tiny bit of head room left over. In a larger room the Omens will need a few watts more. I'd say these are more on the order of 93 db rather than Zu's claim of 97 db sensitivity. I'll try my Sure TK2050 amp and Bada tube hybrid tomorrow.

Early impressions after only three hours: maybe not as detailed as the little Fostex 4.5's but the soundstage makes up for it in spades - makes the little Tektons sound thin in comparison - very pleasant at low volume too and distractingly good - the sound is growing on me minute by minute - as good as they sound, break-in must be immediate - no shout heard with the big drivers with Devil's Food can sized phase plugs - listening to the old classic "Jazz at the Pawnshop" which aurally transports me to that intimate live jazz club in Stockholm with the wonderful vibes' riff floating in the air above the tinkling high ball glasses - "El Viento De Verdad" from Louis Borda's "Nouveau Tango" is better than I've heard it before with piano done so right and Latin guitar so real you can touch it and the same with the melancholic "Milonga De Mis Amores" cut - If you don't own this CD buy it and then write me a thank you note!


You see the Omens are ready working their spell and making me forget about every thing but the music. The wife says shut it down as it's $.99 taco night at Casa Linda's. I'll be back with more updates so stay tuned.

11-10-2010, 06:14 AM

When I first hooked up the Omens the preamp was still feeding a powered sub and the bass was way too much. With the amount of bass the Omen makes I can't imagine anyone needing a sub.

Many full range designs are either a large driver capable of good bass supported by a super tweeter or a small full range driver with good highs supported by a large full range bass driver. In the case of the latter separate amps are often used to power each driver.

The ZU speakers are able to produce bass as witnessed by the above quotes....but my Cantons, tho are only book shelves and cant match the bass like floor standers or MrPs book shelve Dyns, but they do produce bass, but not with Peabodys CJ preamp. Thats odd as well

[Feanor]

'Mon, you're being mean, mean, mean to Mr. P who is a sensitive guy. (I'm glad to see him posting again, for sure.)

Were I anywhere near you guys I'd haul over both my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 and my Jolida passive pre.

The former is exceedingly neutral and solid state-like except that with vintage Amperex 'PQ' tubes it does add that fake ambiance you can get with tubes. The Jolida would be the truth-teller provided the power amps don't have unusually low input impedance.

One thing I wonder is how the Zu's can be worth a pinch if they are so hard to drive -- I'm a bigot of course, but I put it down pro-type compression drivers.

[frenchmon]

OK, so I have been following this thread and wondering why all the focus is solely on the Pre-Amp for driving speakers.

I have 1 pre amp but 2 amps and 2 pairs of speakers. Amp A drives one set of speakers properly where Amp B does not. When I swap the speakers in my system, Amp B drives set 2 better than Amp A. But all 4 tests are using the same Pre Amp.

So why all the focus on just the Pre? Did anyone consider that the Amps may not be matched correctly with the speakers?

Were any tests done by running the source right to the Amps bypassing the Pre altogether?

My Counterpoint NPS400 does not drive my Dynaudio 82s the same as my Stratos, while the Stratos does not drive the Clearfields as good as the Counterpoint. Both using a VAC CLA1 MKII Pre Amp.

I find it odd that the Vincent drove my Canton Book shelves the ZU and Dyns, but the CJ cant drive the ZU, nor get bass out of my book shelves, and not as good as my Vincent when it comes to the Dyns.

[frenchmon]

'Mon, you're being mean, mean, mean to Mr. P who is a sensitive guy. (I'm glad to see him posting again, for sure.)

Were I anywhere near you guys I'd haul over both my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 and my Jolida passive pre.

The former is exceedingly neutral and solid state-like except that with vintage Amperex 'PQ' tubes it does add that fake ambiance you can get with tubes. The Jolida would be the truth-teller provided the power amps don't have unusually low input impedance.

One thing I wonder is how the Zu's can be worth a pinch if they are so hard to drive -- I'm a bigot of course, but I put it down pro-type compression drivers.

Ahhh Peabody will be alright! He and I are going to listen to some Canton Floor standers and perhaps some Revel speakers next Monday...that is if he don't kick my ass the next time he sees me.

[Ajani]

Gents I think you may want to tone down the discussion... I would hate to see Frenchy and Peabody stop being friends over a difference of opinion on Peabody's HiFi.

A couple of things to keep in mind: from what I've read (assuming I'm not mistaken) Zu speakers need proper matching to sound right also, from the Stereophile review, Peabody's CJ Pre is not plug and play and also requires careful matching...

I've never heard CJ gear, but based on the descriptions I've heard I wouldn't expect to like the sound of a CJ/Dynaudio Combo... (Bear in mind that I'm not a Dynaudio Fan since in my experience they've been too bass heavy and warm for my tastes)... So I could easily imagine the combo sounding as Frenchy describes... But of course that would likely come down to my own listening preferences, which are likely not the same as Mr Peabody...

I wish I could bring my Benchmark DAC1 over and hook it up as pre to see how the system would sound...

[harley .guy07]

Actually with the right gear and setup dynaudio's are quite detailed and while they do put out a good amount of bass for their size I would think that is a good thing as long as it is tight and detailed which I assure you it is with every Dyn speaker I have heard. But they are power hungry and when they don't get proper power that they need to do their job they let you know about it. I think that people are going to far with the CJ Dynaudio thing because I have heard his system myself and while it does have a laid back smoother presence to it which CJ is known for that is what Mr. Peabody was looking for when he switched from Krell to CJ in the first place and I listened to his system for quite some time with my Dyns and his and to me I never felt fatigued or that it lacked much in my opinion. Now in saying that I will say that for my personal tastes his system was more laid back than perhaps I would choose but I am not the owner of the equipment and from what other CJ owners and the reviews on CJ equipment I would believe that CJ is one of the tops for their type of equipment and people that know CJ know the sound character and are quite frankly looking for that type of sound while others prefer a more direct detailed approach. Just like I hate most metal dome tweeters or at least the ones on the speakers I have heard that are affordable for their inability to keep the fatigue factor down which is very important to me since I have very sensitive high frequency hearing and can hear higher frequencies than most people so I have to select speakers very carefully for this and also I wanted speakers that presented the sound very naturally which I believe the Dyn's do(my opinion). While others don't express the same opinion is the same as someones ears having a different hearing response than I do which is perfectly normal and everyones ears are different. I think the fact that Frenchmon is a different person with different hearing and also different tastes in what they want their system to sound like plays a big factor in why they chose the equipment they did and why they stand behind the way it sound just like I stand behind mine.

[harley .guy07]

But in saying what I just said Jack powers his Contour 1.8's with a tube integrated and seems to like it so that tells me that Dynaudio is more open to different kinds of setups than I even thought they were. And jack is right its all a matter of opinion and that is what it is. this is turning into a Ford and Chevy talk and you know nobody comes out a winner in those arguments.

[Jack in Wilmington]

But in saying what I just said Jack powers his Contour 1.8's with a tube integrated and seems to like it so that tells me that Dynaudio is more open to different kinds of setups than I even thought they were. And jack is right its all a matter of opinion and that is what it is. this is turning into a Ford and Chevy talk and you know nobody comes out a winner in those arguments.

I know this whole discussion has got me wondering what my Dyns would sound like with a different amp. Would Frenchie find my system similar to Mr. P's? When I bought my 1.8's I took my Jolida down to the sellers house to hear what they sounded like together. He had a Krell 400i, so I got to hear the tube sound as well as the solid state. He lived in an apartment so we couldn't turn up the volume. His amp had mine out watted 5 to 1, but I still liked the sound of my tubes. And in the end that's all that mattered.

[Mr Peabody]

0+There's a difference in "driving" the Zu and achieving a "good" response. The Krell, or CJ are capable of driving the Zu to deafening levels, but neither seem to derive an acceptable bass response from them. My CJ has good bass with Dynaudio or the few models of Klipsch I've played with. Any one wanting to know what I like in the CJ can search for my thread when I bought the preamp. No one in their right mind would doubt Krell's ability to produce bass.

Frenchie and I pick up on different aspects of sound that's why we differ on speakers as well, if we both like a brand it must be good to be sure :) He focused on the Vincent slamming bass but missed the CJ giving the bass more of a pace and detail. It's about what you listen for. He missed the Vincent putting the sax and trumpet in center stage where the CJ put them to opposite left/right positioning a bit to side of center. I can't start replacing my gear over the Zu, I like my system and would prefer getting rid of the Zu. The CJ does fine with the Dyn's, I would like to maybe find something in speakers equally as capable but a bit more open and efficient than the Dyn's.

[frenchmon]

I know this whole discussion has got me wondering what my Dyns would sound like with a different amp. Would Frenchie find my system similar to Mr. P's? When I bought my 1.8's I took my Jolida down to the sellers house to hear what they sounded like together. He had a Krell 400i, so I got to hear the tube sound as well as the solid state. He lived in an apartment so we couldn't turn up the volume. His amp had mine out watted 5 to 1, but I still liked the sound of my tubes. And in the end that's all that mattered.

Jack....it not so much as warm sound verses a lively sound as it is as much as about a system the caliber of MrP's Preamp not being able to produce bass and just a fuller open sound all around. If Some one has a system that is warm and they like it....thats fine. Also remember the bass on my Cantons??? It was not there that night and you quickly pointed that out to me....but I called you and said the bass is back in my system...you remember that?

But I started this thread sharing with what I heard from the two systems...the VIncent made the CJ sound boring, uninspiring. There was no snap nor slam in the CJ once we heard what the Vincent could do. The bass was very light weight like it was not getting enough power to get it to open up like a bass is suppose to do with the CJ. I was just as surprised as MrP that Vincent brought life where there had been none. I even said that at Peabodys. I've heard many warm systems that had bass and slam and snap....and may I add...Peabody wants to conjure up this idea like the Vincent had no pace...that is far from the truth. The rate of movement was great and tight...but while the strained soundingl bass from the CJ had a tad...and I say tad more finer detail, the Vincent was still very great in that regard as well.

When I think about that night...I and MrP was amazed at the performance of the Vincent and its ability to do what it did...make the ZU and the Dyns sing the way it did. I came expecting the complete opposite. I was just hoping the Vincent could at least hang with the CJ and not get embarrassed...I even told MrP that as he was switching them out....I was thinking If the Zu did not sound good with the CJ and the bass was not opening up I assumed it would be even worse with the Vincent. It was the CJ that had the Pedigree and the Legacy so I naturally thought my Vincent would sound more of the same as the CJ in MrP's system. Boy was I ever wrong.

[harley .guy07]

that seems to be the problem, every time you find a speaker that is more open it is missing something somewhere else like the bass or inner detail. I know when I visited you talked about the New Dynaudio's that you have heard but that was a while ago I know they just came out with a new focus line or at least have done upgrades and they also have the confidence and other lines but most of them are the price of cars but I would wonder if saving your bones for one of Dynaudio's own more upscale models give you want you want. You said you listened to the first gen focus and thought that they were too polite and that is also what I have heard of some of the other people talk of their more affordable lines(even though there is nothing about Dynaudio that is affordable new), but that is not you talking there that is people just talking but I would wonder how the confidence C1 would do in your room on your setup. I have been told it puts out the bass for a smaller speaker and has the openness and detail that possibly the more affordable Dyns just don't have. Just an idea.

[Poultrygeist]

Zu's are bottom slot ported and this granite slab improved their bass response.

http://://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/P3140003.JPG

[Ajani]

I can't start replacing my gear over the Zu, I like my system and would prefer getting rid of the Zu. The CJ does fine with the Dyn's, I would like to maybe find something in speakers equally as capable but a bit more open and efficient than the Dyn's.

Yep... it would not make much sense to replace your electronics to suit the ZU (unless you recently won the lotto and forgot to share with the rest of us)...

So what speakers have you heard with CJ that really got you excited? I suspect the best option is to visit as many CJ dealers as you can and listen to the speakers they match with CJ...

[LeRoy]

maybe the Zu Audios are just finicky picky speakers that need just the right thing to make them sound good, that would sure explain why so many are on the gon for sale or at least they were a short time ago. As for audio opinions I would of had to have been there myself to get the full effect of what both of you are saying but it sounds like that both of you have different tastes and that is that. Frenchmon says he likes the sound of his Vincent and Mr. P says he preferred the CJ. I have heard one of the systems and while it did have a different sound character than I am used to it also offered something that I was not expecting and while I love the sound of my Dyn's in my system they did have soundstage depth and bloom unlike my system. I just wish I could have been there to give my 2 cents and also to have been able to put my Nuforce in the mix as well.

Hi Harley,

Earlier this year I got an opportunity to listen to the Zu's. Its the model that was being put on sale for about a grand but I forget the model number but I know it was the same one that Mr. P has.

Anyway, I took by Rega Brio 3, all of 49 WPC, and tried to drive the Zu's...well that was a mistake because it just sounded awful.

My local audio buddy was driving the Zu with a Naim Pre and bi-amped them with Naim Amps as well... if memory serves correct..the combination was about 130 WPC. Now that sounded much better than with the Rega but for my tastes there was nothing about the Zu that compelled me to rave about the experience or want to go buy some. To me ears, they are just the flavor of the week kind of audio experience...

So, different electronics will either flatten, reduce, or open up the audio presentation and man there are just toooo many variables in this audio game.......I think its just plain difficult to try and pre-determine a synergistic paring....

[harley .guy07]

I do believe you have a good point there. I have spent many years putting different combos together and have either been surprised or let down but in the end when you find the gear that you like and have spent that much money on it would not be a wise decision to change it for a certain speaker unless that speaker has proven itself worthy without a shadow of a doubt. I have seen too many people buy the Zu's then a couple of months later put them on Audiogon because they thought they liked them at first then after time living with them they got fatiguing or they just did not deliver the goods like others out there. I have actually never heard them but from what I am gathering from the well known sources that I know they are kind of a flavor of the week thing and some people liked the flavor and some didn't. I will say from what I have read that they would not be for me but I am not one to totally smash a component either so I will let the Zu lovers love their speakers and I will continue to love the sound of my Dyn's

[Poultrygeist]

The Zu house sound ( and it is a house sound since all models share the same basic 10" full range driver ) is not for everyone.

"Zu is a somewhat old fashioned sound that goes back to the days of tubes where tone, color, micro-dynamics and organic flow were valued. where Zu is modern is with its insistence on full bass coverage and to be able to crank the wick without apparent compression." - Srajan Ebaen

Due to the slotted finger ports on the bottom, set up can be problematic. The most common errors people make is that they aren't spread far enough apart, don't toe them in hard, fail to set the gap and place them on carpet. The latter two greatly affect bass response.

I tried to show the set up gap with my Zu's placed on granite plinths but posting pictures here from my gallery is always hit or miss. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.

[frenchmon]

Zu is modern is with its insistence on full bass coverage and to be able to crank the wick without apparent compression

Can you flesh this out a bit? The Vincent tube pre was able to drive the ZU with no problems at all.

[harley .guy07]

the Zu audio's woofers are made by Eminence which makes drivers for guitar and bass guitar cabinets mostly and from what I understand the Zu's 10" driver for there speakers are a modified version of one of their full range guitar speakers with a bass throw like one of their bass guitar speakers and from what I can tell you from the past is that most of their guitar speakers like an overdriven pre tube or hot sound in order to get them to bark or sound the way they were intended and that might be what is going on here is that the drivers in the zu are liking the hotter or higher driven sound with your vincent instead of the CJ or Marantz Preamp the Mr. P has or the other people have tried them with. The fact is most guitar and bass guitar amps with tubes are pushed harder and are driven hotter than home tube gear is to either get distortion for the sound they want or a form of overdrive that makes the speaker more edgy sounding for blues or light rock or just plain drives the speaker harder for more musical impact off of the instrument which might not work in some home audio gear as well. After doing some research and having good experience with guitar and bass guitar amps and cabinets I am just throwing this in as an idea for why they might be so picky with some tube gear and some SS for that matter. I know some will disagree and others might agree but it is just an idea.

[Poultrygeist]

frenchie,

That's a quote from Srajan of 6moons fame.

The bandwidth of the Omen Def is 30-25hz. Seldom does a string bass play a note below D which has a frequency of 36hz. Bass is one of the strong points of Zu speakers but if those finger ports can't breathe the Zu's become sealed speakers.

[frenchmon]

frenchie,

That's a quote from Srajan of 6moons fame.

The bandwidth of the Omen Def is 30-25hz. Seldom does a string bass play a note below D which has a frequency of 36hz. Bass is one of the strong points of Zu speakers but if those finger ports can't breathe the Zu's become sealed speakers.

Well I stuck my finger in the ports of MrP's Zu's so they where not blocked. What preamp are you driving your Zu's with? And what is it that it has that makes it able to drive them when others fail? I have been told mine may be high current or hot or super charged. Is your super charged or hot? And if it is hot is that a bad thing?

I am stumped to why mine did and Peabodys didn't. He has very good mono amps which are more that capable, and I would think his preamp would be too. It does not matter the character of the preamp which is very warm....but even with the thick warmth of the CJ pre...why would it not drive the Zu properly?

[E-Stat]

with Conrad Johnson mono blocks, T+A CDP, ZU speakers and Siltech cabling. I knew the Vincent performed well in my system, but you really dont know what you have until you stack it up and shoot it out with other gear...
How did you reverse phase when comparing the CT-6 to the Vincent? Virtually all C-J line stages invert phase which makes comparisons to other line stages a bit more complicated. My exposure to them is somewhat limited, but I can tell you the ART II is superlative.

rw

[frenchmon]

How did you reverse phase when comparing the CT-6 to the Vincent? Virtually all C-J line stages invert phase which makes comparisons to other line stages a bit more complicated. My exposure to them is somewhat limited, but I can tell you the ART II is superlative.

rw

MrP did the switching...dont know if he did...nor if we needed to.

[E-Stat]

MrP did the switching...dont know if he did...nor if we needed to.
The easiest way is to swap the leads to speakers. Did he have to pause at either speaker before listening to the other choice?

C-J's choice to invert phase is rarely found. Not a wrong decision per se when you read their explanation here (http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/ts-cjfaq.html) - but one not commonly shared elsewhere. I'm 99% sure that yours does not invert phase. Nor do either of mine.

rw

[frenchmon]

The easiest way is to swap the leads to each speaker. Did he have to pause at each speaker before listening to the other choice?

C-J's choice to invert phase is rarely found. Not a wrong decision per se when you read their explanation here (http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/ts-cjfaq.html) - but one not commonly shared elsewhere. I'm 99% sure that yours does not invert phase. Nor do either of mine.

rw

Thanks for this information E-Stat....this is what the CJ web site says.


Q. How do I know if my conrad-johnson component is phase inverting?
A. Phase information on conrad-johnson products is in all but the earliest conrad-johnson owner’s manuals (PV1,PV2, PV3, MV45 and MV75). Early conrad-johnson preamplifiers were phase correct (with the exceptions of the PV3 and the PV4 which inverted phase of line-level inputs). From the PV7 and the Premier 7 on, all conrad-johnson brand preamplifiers (both tube and solid-state) have been phase inverting in the line-stage. All three pre-preamplifiers (HV1, HV2 and Premier Six) were phase inverting. All conrad-johnson power amplifiers, tube and solid-state, are phase correct except the Premier 350.

This is very interesting and has me wondering now.

This is what he did. He unplugged his preamp from the amp and CDP by reaching behind the preamp and feeling where each was plugged. Then he left the pluggs from teh CDP and Amps sitting there as he pulled the CJ preamp out and slid the Vincent in after I told him where the Vincent stages where. HE never said anything about the CJ being out of phase. I dont think Peabody has had his CJ out of phase all this time...naw...I dont think so, but I will email him and ask him.

[frenchmon]

The Vincent does not invert phase....so if he had his gear hooked up as if it was in phase, and then hooked mine up the same way...that explans it....boy MrP would know about the phase im sure but he never ever touched the speaker cable at all.

[E-Stat]

I dont think Peabody has had his CJ out of phase all this time...naw...I dont think so, but I will email him and ask him.
If a phase change was not made between each swap of line stage, one would expect to hear those kind of differences reported. Even when comparing the same preamp and the effects of inverted phase.

rw

[Poultrygeist]

Yesterday and today I drove the Zu's with Bottlehead 2a3 Paramours and the Conrad Johnson PV1 ( not phase inverting but I don't think you could tell the difference if it was ). I also use a Aric 3.7 preamp which works well when substituted for the CJ. My Dared 2a3 and Miniwatt SET are both integrated amps which don't require an external preamp but they too drive the Zu's with great aplomb. I've tried at least a dozen push pull tube amps with the Zu's but the low powered single ended triodes just sound better.

[frenchmon]

If a phase change was not made between each swap of line stage, one would expect to hear those kind of differences reported. Even when comparing the same preamp and the effects of inverted phase.

rw

Well I have not heard from P after I emailed him....

[harley .guy07]

frenchie,

That's a quote from Srajan of 6moons fame.

The bandwidth of the Omen Def is 30-25hz. Seldom does a string bass play a note below D which has a frequency of 36hz. Bass is one of the strong points of Zu speakers but if those finger ports can't breathe the Zu's become sealed speakers.

Well I have a 5 string bass that has a low B string so that is not exactly true. It is more like around 28 to 30 hz. And there are basses out there that go lower than that, just because 4 strings are the most popular does not mean people aren't playing instruments that can play lower because I know my 5 string Active pickup model will

[frenchmon]

This is Peabodys remarks...


"I thought about that later. I reverse my speaker leads for the CJ, but didn't think to switch them back for the Vincent. I don't know how much difference it would have made, maybe the Vincent would have had a bit more focus. Unless there's more to it than I understand, not correcting the phase invert just causes the sound stage to be a bit more diffuse. The difference to me between correct or not is subtle.

Not sure what he means by focus...The Vincent was very focused that night...so if they would have been in phase and focused, they would have had a sound like the CJ with a weak bass????? It was already the better performer. I just don't get it.

I've had my system out of phase before and the sound was weak and not subtle but very much noticeable... Not strong and full as it was a Peabodys. This is really strange...stuff is not adding up. Oh well, we may never get to the bottom of this.

Poultrygeist drives his Zu with low powered amps, the CJ strains at driving them, and the Vincent has no problem and according to MrP the Vincent was out of phase not the CJ......I give up.

Now I've also had my Marantz out of phase and it was not that noticble but you could tell something was wrong, but not the Rotel.

[Mr Peabody]

Wish I knew some one with a SET around here.

[frenchmon]

Why don't you just purchase one...some of them seem to be cheap enough on line.

[frenchmon]

When I had my Marantz out of phase it was not that noticeable until you listen for the bass. It was not as strong and the Marantz was much more hot to the touch. When I corrected the problem, the Marantz cooled of and the bass was stronger.

When I had the Rotel/Vincent out of phase, it was very much noticeable....the entire sound was weak. But I guess its different with the Vincent/Conrad Johns pairing. BTW....I would love to have the Vincent paired with CJ tubed power amps....if they perform like your mono blocks. They where tight enough and not as sloppy as some tube amps I've heard. The Rotel power amp has more authority but the CJ mono blocks are very good with great definition.

[Poultrygeist]

Harley, you're right the lowest note on a 5 string bass is B which has a frequency of 30.8 hz but as a bass player you also know that music for 5 string bass seldom goes lower than D which has a frequency of 36.7 hz. Sure you can go lower but I'm speaking of the practical range.

FWIW the lowest note on a bass viol is E ( 41.2 hz ) and that's about as low as I usually encounter with the type music I listen to.

[Poultrygeist]

Most of my local audio friends have SET or SEP amps because they own full range speakers but I know a couple of horn guys who are totally nuts over their Pass Labs F1.

I've never heard the Zu's with an F1 but I sure would like to. The F1 can squeeze huge impact bass from a 4.5 inch Fostex driver like nobody's business. It's the only amp I know of that when paired with small back loaded full range horns plumbs the depths so well a sub is not needed. I wish PoppaC could hear the F1 with his Frugal Horns.

[E-Stat]

Most of my local audio friends have SET or SEP amps because they own full range speakers but I know a couple of horn guys who are totally nuts over their Pass Labs F1.
Wait 'till they hear the F1J with the new Silicon Carbide (SiC) Jfet transistors from SemiSouth. You may be interested in my recent post about the new First Watt SIT amp. :)

rw

[harley .guy07]

Harley, you're right the lowest note on a 5 string bass is B which has a frequency of 30.8 hz but as a bass player you also know that music for 5 string bass seldom goes lower than D which has a frequency of 36.7 hz. Sure you can go lower but I'm speaking of the practical range.

FWIW the lowest note on a bass viol is E ( 41.2 hz ) and that's about as low as I usually encounter with the type music I listen to.

You are correct and it is a fact that most bass players me included have 5 strings but mostly play 4 string basses because all the 5th string does is allow you to step down without moving down the low E string and most times the B string does not give it the same clarity as just stepping down on the E string. I was just saying the point that Bass guiter is not limited to the low E string and some music atually uses the low register notes even though it is a rarity.

[harley .guy07]

To make the point I play my vintage Peavey T40 4 string all the time and rarely play my custom made 5 string active bass. So you make a valid point