Tubes

[frenchmon]

Need two 12ax7 as well as 12au7. opened up the SA-T1 and saw the tubes and all it says on the tube is "China 12ax7" so I know they are the cheapest.

I dont know much about buying tubes but I too have seen so much about the Golden Lion tubes, but unlike audio gear, I dont think I can send them back if they are not my flavor. So does anyone know about these tube and is this a good price? $43.95 per tube.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/thetubestore_2166_71492614

[RGA]

Like most things the tube amp and the tube itself is a synergistic creation - just because an amp uses a cheap tube doesn't mean the tube is bad - it is VERY VERY possible and even likely that a high quality tube amp with cheap $6 tubes will sound much better than a cheaper tube amp using the most expensive tubes.

The Tube Amp comes down to design and parts quality - the quality of the transformers are more than half the battle, capacitors, resisters, volume pots, wiring.

What I would suggest is buying a few different inexpensive tubes from different makers and try them and see what kind of impact that has - just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's going to be better - it can be - but it can also be priced high due to limited numbers or rarity if it is a N.O.S. tube.

Incidentally the Chinese tubes are getting some very good reviews - just like their tube amps

Standard Shuguang Tubes (http://thetubestore.com/sino.html)
Sino Chinese Tubes (http://www.tubedepot.com/sino.html)

Although as Fred points out the 300Bs are not up with the best Western Electric - though those tend to cost multiples the price as well Shuguang Treasure 300B vacuum tube Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=858)

12ax7 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/shuguang.htm)
TJ Full Music Carbon Plate 300B Getting to the heart and soul of the performance. Review By Leonard Norwitz (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0109/tj_full_music_300b_carbon.htm)

I think I am in more of the 211 camp than the 300B camp as well if I had the choice.

[poppachubby]

Hey frenchmon. Yes that's not a bad price for those Genalex, but does that include testing as well? When it comes to tubes, at least in the early going, stick with the more reputable sellers. They generally have competitive pricing and get behind their product. I think Jim McShane (http://www.mcshanedesign.net/tubes.htm)is supposed to be one of the more competitve sellers with those Genalex tubes.

A good option is to look at McShane's site and also at Brent Jesse's site (which I have already linkeed you to) for sale tubes. These are usually totally fine but missing a box, or have been returned, etc. Anyhow for rolling it's a good and cheap option.

Did you check out the Psvane tubes (http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/?page_id=148)at Grant Fidelity? These are what I use and they are an amazing tube. Depending on how much testing you want, the rpice varies but compared to NOS tubes it's a steal.

[frenchmon]

Like most things the tube amp and the tube itself is a synergistic creation - just because an amp uses a cheap tube doesn't mean the tube is bad - it is VERY VERY possible and even likely that a high quality tube amp with cheap $6 tubes will sound much better than a cheaper tube amp using the most expensive tubes.

The Tube Amp comes down to design and parts quality - the quality of the transformers are more than half the battle, capacitors, resisters, volume pots, wiring.

What I would suggest is buying a few different inexpensive tubes from different makers and try them and see what kind of impact that has - just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's going to be better - it can be - but it can also be priced high due to limited numbers or rarity if it is a N.O.S. tube.

Incidentally the Chinese tubes are getting some very good reviews - just like their tube amps

Standard Shuguang Tubes (http://thetubestore.com/sino.html)
Sino Chinese Tubes (http://www.tubedepot.com/sino.html)

Although as Fred points out the 300Bs are not up with the best Western Electric - though those tend to cost multiples the price as well Shuguang Treasure 300B vacuum tube Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=858)

12ax7 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/shuguang.htm)
TJ Full Music Carbon Plate 300B Getting to the heart and soul of the performance. Review By Leonard Norwitz (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0109/tj_full_music_300b_carbon.htm)

I think I am in more of the 211 camp than the 300B camp as well if I had the choice.


Thanks for the knowledge man....I need it.

[frenchmon]

Hey frenchmon. Yes that's not a bad price for those Genalex, but does that include testing as well? When it comes to tubes, at least in the early going, stick with the more reputable sellers. They generally have competitive pricing and get behind their product. I think Jim McShane (http://www.mcshanedesign.net/tubes.htm)is supposed to be one of the more competitve sellers with those Genalex tubes.

A good option is to look at McShane's site and also at Brent Jesse's site (which I have already linkeed you to) for sale tubes. These are usually totally fine but missing a box, or have been returned, etc. Anyhow for rolling it's a good and cheap option.

Did you check out the Psvane tubes (http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/?page_id=148)at Grant Fidelity? These are what I use and they are an amazing tube. Depending on how much testing you want, the rpice varies but compared to NOS tubes it's a steal.


My Man!

Tell me what the testing thing is all about? Is it just knowledge passed on about the tubes performance? I read where a few guys have said dont buy with out testing. I've been over to GF and looked at the tubes you suggested, the psvane tube My Man, and I like them as well as the reviews about them....even ran across a few of your reviews about them as well.

I also like RGA's suggestion of buying cheap and tube rolling. Yes I've been over to Brents site as well....will check out McShanes site today.

I have no knowledge about tubes sep what you and RGA have schooled me on and what I've read, I opened the SA-T1 and the tubes said "12ax7 China". Thats it.....don't sound bad, but ima wondering now if I can get an even better sound.

[blackraven]

I bought some RCA Black Plate tubes from Jim Mcshane and they clearly were not tested. One tube was dying. I've bought tubes from several places, here are a few that I have had good luck with-

These people are very honest and I have been to their home her in St.Paul to pick up some tubes. They reliably test the tubes.- TC Tubes - specializing in vintage vacuum tubes (http://tctubes.com/)

Catalog (http://www.tubeman.com/catalog.htm)

Welcome to TubeDepot.com! (http://www.tubedepot.com/?gclid=CJXw-r-czKoCFQLsKgodmn6AqA)

thetubestore.com - Audio vacuum tubes for your amplifier. (http://thetubestore.com/)

[mav52]

Frenchmon, check out 'Electro-Harmonix tubes'
I can't post the link since I don't have 10 post.



about $13-19 bucks google 'ehx 12AX7 tube'

[frenchmon]

Thanks Raven for the sites.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, check out 'Electro-Harmonix tubes'
I can't post the link since I don't have 10 post.



about $13-19 bucks google 'ehx 12AX7 tube'

Ok will do...thanks.

[Poultrygeist]

With tubes it's safe to say that "they don't make them like they used to". That's why NOS ( new old stock ) tubes usually cost more than new tubes. A strong testing US or European brand tube from the 1950's will usually sound better than new tubes of today. New Russian tubes are decent as their factories and tooling weren't all shipped to China. While the Chinese will put some decent driver tubes in their amps like the Shuguang their no name preamp tubes are very poor quality. I believe they expect us to replace them so why should they use anything better? My experience comes from having owned three Chinese tube amps and a tube CDP and I rolled every signal tube in the lot.

I wouldn't pay $45 for a new Gold Lion but I have paid around that price for a used Telefunken or Amperex. I suggest looking on ebay ( never got a bad tube from a highly rated seller ) for 12**7 organ tubes as they had to meet higher sonic standards. Conns or Baldwins are good bets. They're all made by good companies like RCA, GE, Western Electric, Raytheon, Sylvania etc.

I personally like the RCA clear tops which sound great but don't cost that much.

[frenchmon]

Have you listen to the GL before? How about the Psvane Vacuum Tubes?

[Poultrygeist]

I don't buy present day tubes unless I'm forced to. Believe me there is a huge difference. The last present day tubes I bought were JJ EL-84's for a single ended tube receiver. You see I couldn't justify vintage tubes that cost more than the $75 I paid for the amp.

If you buy modern day tubes you'll end up rolling them for vintage once you start reading tube forums. Get some black plates or clear tops and be done with it. Used is fine if they test well.

[frenchmon]

I don't buy present day tubes unless I'm forced to. Believe me there is a huge difference. The last present day tubes I bought were JJ EL-84's for a single ended tube receiver. You see I couldn't justify vintage tubes that cost more than the $75 I paid for the amp.

If you buy modern day tubes you'll end up rolling them for vintage once you start reading tube forums. Get some black plates or clear tops and be done with it. Used is fine if they test well.

Do you realize its subjective? I've heard the other camp say the opposite of what you have just stated.

[Poultrygeist]

The demand is not subjective and it's so much higher for vintage tubes. That alone speaks volumes. It took me three months of constant bidding on ebay to collect four WE396A at an affordable price that wasn't all that affordable.

I have an older relative who was a tube engineer in the late 1950's. I wish I could get him to share some of his knowledge and experiences working at Western Electric from back in the day.

The Psvane probably sounds good as do JJ gold pins but I doubt you'll see folks selling off their NOS Mullards to buy a sleeve.

[Feanor]

Joe's Tube Lore (here (http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8)) is a somewhat famous personal review of very large number of old preamp tubes. It was compiled a few years ago, but heck, we're talking about older tubes.

Based on Joe's comments I bought a pair of used, (not "new" old stock), Amperex white label USA 'PQ' tubes for the gain stage of my Sonic Frontiers LIne 1. They are the best tubes I've tried by a fair margin. Of course these are 6922-type tubes so of no particular interest to you.

http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/AmperexPQ.jpg

[02audionoob]

Frenchie...have you heard of these?

Sovtek 12AX7LPS (http://tubedepot.com/so-12ax7lps.html)

[Hyfi]

Frenchie...have you heard of these?

Sovtek 12AX7LPS (http://tubedepot.com/so-12ax7lps.html)

Those are some good tubes. The older ones were WTBs which are better if you find them.

The newer JJ Tesla tubes are still made in the old Tesla factory and are a good value. I'm using the Sovtek AX7s and the JJ AU7s in my VAC.

Quest For Sound has lots of good tubes and is a real reputable place.

Quest For Sound - High End Audio (http://www.questforsound.com/productlines.htm)

Be careful of Electro Harmonix. a yaer and a half ago Parts Express got a bad batch and it was widespread. I went thru 3 sets with nasty hum before I went with the Sovtek-JJ setup.

[frenchmon]

The demand is not subjective and it's so much higher for vintage tubes. That alone speaks volumes. It took me three months of constant bidding on ebay to collect four WE396A at an affordable price that wasn't all that affordable.

I have an older relative who was a tube engineer in the late 1950's. I wish I could get him to share some of his knowledge and experiences working at Western Electric from back in the day.

The Psvane probably sounds good as do JJ gold pins but I doubt you'll see folks selling off their NOS Mullards to buy a sleeve.

Ok...sounds good. I wont argue your experience seeing I really don't have any experience in this field....but your arguments and suggestions are filed away as counselling and advice.....thanks.

[frenchmon]

Joe's Tube Lore (here (http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8)) is a somewhat famous personal review of very large number of old preamp tubes. It was compiled a few years ago, but heck, we're talking about older tubes.

Based on Joe's comments I bought a pair of used, (not "new" old stock), Amperex white label USA 'PQ' tubes for the gain stage of my Sonic Frontiers LIne 1. They are the best tubes I've tried by a fair margin. Of course these are 6922-type tubes so of no particular interest to you.

http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/AmperexPQ.jpg

Thanks for the knowledge Feanor....it seems your experience is in line with Poultrygeist.

[frenchmon]

Frenchie...have you heard of these?

Sovtek 12AX7LPS (http://tubedepot.com/so-12ax7lps.html)

I think I ran across them in my research. Are they the ones you use? If so, what did they do for the sound of your ARC integrated that the previous tubes didnt? And what was your previous tubes?

[frenchmon]

Those are some good tubes. The older ones were WTBs which are better if you find them.

The newer JJ Tesla tubes are still made in the old Tesla factory and are a good value. I'm using the Sovtek AX7s and the JJ AU7s in my VAC.

Quest For Sound has lots of good tubes and is a real reputable place.

Quest For Sound - High End Audio (http://www.questforsound.com/productlines.htm)

Be careful of Electro Harmonix. a yaer and a half ago Parts Express got a bad batch and it was widespread. I went thru 3 sets with nasty hum before I went with the Sovtek-JJ setup.

Cool Hifi....good looking out about the Electro Harmonix....I had not heard that one. You like the Sovtek and JJ as well I see....and thanks for the link.... I've got some good info from you fellas....thanks.

[02audionoob]

I think I ran across them in my research. Are they the ones you use? If so, what did they do for the sound of your ARC integrated that the previous tubes didnt? And what was your previous tubes?

I used them in a Pro-Ject Tube Box...not the ARC integrated. The ARC has the tested and matched 6922 tubes from ARC. I thought the 12AX7LPS sounded a little smoother and airier than the original Tube Box 12AX7 tubes. Also...have you heard about these -

Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production (http://www.tubedepot.com/mu-12ax7.html)

Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production (http://www.tubedepot.com/ts-12ax7.html)

[frenchmon]

I used them in a Pro-Ject Tube Box...not the ARC integrated. The ARC has the tested and matched 6922 tubes from ARC. I thought the 12AX7LPS sounded a little smoother and airier than the original Tube Box 12AX7 tubes. Also...have you heard about these -

Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production (http://www.tubedepot.com/mu-12ax7.html)

Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production (http://www.tubedepot.com/ts-12ax7.html)

Yeah I have ran across those as well....take me to school here noob...you know I really value your opinions and knowledge. Why would the old vintage tubes cost so much more than the new ones? I've got guys telling me not to buy new tubes and some guys say dont waist your time buying old NOS tubes....shoot.... this is harder than looking for audio gear....at least you can send them back if you dont like it....dont think I can do that with tubes. I know the real test is in the listening which I am going to do, but I just hate to throw good money after bad tubes and not have a chance to get my money back.....This the one time I am really going to have to initially go with anothers expertise on this.

[02audionoob]

Yeah I have ran across those as well....take me to school here noob...you know I really value your opinions and knowledge. Why would the old vintage tubes cost so much more than the new ones? I've got guys telling me not to buy new tubes and some guys say dont waist your time buying old NOS tubes....shoot.... this is harder than looking for audio gear....at least you can send them back if you dont like it....dont think I can do that with tubes. I know the real test is in the listening which I am going to do, but I just hate to throw good money after bad tubes and not have a chance to get my money back.....This the one time I am really going to have to initially go with anothers expertise on this.

I wish I could help, but I'm no tube roller. I don't doubt that some of the better NOS tubes can make better music than their modern-day counterparts. And I'm not surprised that tubes that are out of production cost more, since the supply is limited. But that's too much for my little brain. I wasn't afraid of a mistake on a pair of preamp tubes that cost me $30, but for the CA50 I'm going to use what ARC uses and have faith. Maybe when the current tubes are on the way down I'll feel differently. Maybe my sacred CA50 will be just another gadget to me by then.

[the hand of boredom]

Hey Frenchmon, before buying the Gold Lions at 43 a tube, consider the Sovtek LPS or the new production Mullard ata bout 15 per tube. Sovtek has a real winner in the LPS - quiet, linear, and killer tone. Haven't heard the Mullard but many are touting it. If you can find a tested pair of Ei from way back, they are revered for their clarity and transparency

[frenchmon]

I've replaced the 12UX7 china tube with the 12UX7 Sovtek LPS and it was better than the China tube. I may try some others for the 12AX7 but am itching to try the GL. will wait though.

I see you got a Musical Fidelity A5CD and those Reference 3A Veena...nice speakers and a sound out of this world I betcha!

[the hand of boredom]

When did you get the LPS?

The Veena is a remarkable speaker. I'm driving it right now with a Yamaha receiver - blasphemy! I liken this scenario to the magazine covers - making up and airbrushing a beast into a swan. Can't wait to get my amps back from the shop.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, check out this site for tubes. I just ordered some 6CG7 NOS RCA Black Plates from them.

Marantz mullard, Fisher amperex items in greengirl613 vacuum tubes store on eBay! (http://stores.ebay.com/GreenGirls-Guaranteed-Vintage-Tubes/_i.html?_nkw=12ax7+tubes&submit=Search&_sid=226229522)

[frenchmon]

When did you get the LPS?

The Veena is a remarkable speaker. I'm driving it right now with a Yamaha receiver - blasphemy! I liken this scenario to the magazine covers - making up and airbrushing a beast into a swan. Can't wait to get my amps back from the shop.
About two weeks ago...

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, check out this site for tubes. I just ordered some 6CG7 NOS RCA Black Plates from them.

Marantz mullard, Fisher amperex items in greengirl613 vacuum tubes store on eBay! (http://stores.ebay.com/GreenGirls-Guaranteed-Vintage-Tubes/_i.html?_nkw=12ax7+tubes&submit=Search&_sid=226229522)

Cool site...I will keep them in mind...thanks Raven!

[frenchmon]

Blackraven...whats those 6CG7 NOS RCA Black Plates like?

[Enochrome]

Frenchmon, check out 'Electro-Harmonix tubes'
I can't post the link since I don't have 10 post.



about $13-19 bucks google 'ehx 12AX7 tube'

I have had those for about 2 months now. Very clear sound, but mine hum like a mofo!! I cannot tell if it is my Jolida amp or the EH.
I bought the amp with two 12AY7's in them, and that has a lower gain so that is not comparable in pinpointing the problem. So, I am not sure if I can recommend those.

Noob, recommended the Sovtek 12AX7LPS; they have long plates and are considered to be a great deal. I should have went with those; that will be my next purchase.

[frenchmon]

I have had those for about 2 months now. Very clear sound, but mine hum like a mofo!! I cannot tell if it is my Jolida amp or the EH.
I bought the amp with two 12AY7's in them, and that has a lower gain so that is not comparable in pinpointing the problem. So, I am not sure if I can recommend those.

Noob, recommended the Sovtek 12AX7LPS; they have long plates and are considered to be a great deal. I should have went with those; that will be my next purchase.

Look at the chart in the middle of the page.

12AX7 Tube Type Review (http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html#review)

[blackraven]

Blackraven...whats those 6CG7 NOS RCA Black Plates like?

I really like the RCA BP's, even better then the RCA cleartops. They have a more liquid sound and are more neutral to warm. Bass is deep but a little less punchy. Treble is just right.

With tubes there is always so trade off between different models. Plus, tubes sound different in different systems.

[frenchmon]

I really like the RCA BP's, even better then the RCA cleartops. They have a more liquid sound and are more neutral to warm. Bass is deep but a little less punchy. Treble is just right.

With tubes there is always so trade off between different models. Plus, tubes sound different in different systems.

Raven....I swapped out the odd tube a China tube for a 12UX7 Sovtek LPS about a month ago, and I noticed that voices are slightly forward a bit which is a very good thing. The forwardness has added a little luxury and texture to the voice...I love it. Its almost like you can reach out and touch it! I have also swapped out the Canton's for a slightly larger speaker, the Nola Mini's. They dont disperse sound like Cantons but add a little more richness and tone. The bass is a little thinner with the Mini's but with the tone controls on the Vincent, I can bump up bass slightly and bass has presence....first time I've used them. So the tube pre is really sounding excellent. Have you ever used a 12UX7 Sovtek LPS? It added good texture to female vocals.....nice.

Now that was with the XRAY v8....when I use the Marantz SACDP which is richer and warmer in the mids... combined with the tubes it ohhh so much emotion.. Now I have emotion with the XRAY, but a rich warm female voice through the Marantz and tubes...well its outstanding....and with a warm voice like Shirley Horn...Romantic!

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, It sounds like your hooked on tubes. I have not used any 12UX7's as my equipment only takes 6CG7's and 6N1P's. But your experience with tube rolling is what its all about. You can swap tubes to get the sound you want. FYI, don't touch the glass on the tubes with bare hands as the oil on your skin can cause hot spots and premature burnout of the tubes.

Your experience with the tone control on your preamp is why I like tone controls. Used properly they can help you tune the sound.

[frenchmon]

Wow...did not know that about the oil! Thanks ...its valuable information.

Well as soon as I get a phono preamp, I will put the Rotel pre, Rotel CDP, Rotel tuner, another Rotel amp, mmf-2.1 TT, and Cantons in our 4th bed room. This will be the wifes escape from reality and stress. So at times if she lets me, I can get a little solid state relaxation from time to time.

....this is a fun hobby.