Pro-Ject line of turntables perhaps?

[nobody]

I am looking to try out a new turntable after living with and enjoying an older Technics Direct Drive model, SL-Q3 for a few years. I always enjoyed the Technics for its auto shutoff when I feel like falling asleep with music playing, but I am awaiting a refurbished Dual right now that I want to use for 78s and which I can also use when I feel like I need something automatic. I'd like to try out something simpler in a manual table for my main listening and have been looking at the lower models of the Pro-ject line as I don't have a ton to spend.

I see a lot of the Debuts around for good prices, and there is the new-ish Genie model which I am uncertain about as it sells for more than the debut in the US, but less than the Debut in the UK. I do like the look of the Genie, but it it is going to sound the same or worse than a lower model, I'm not sure it is a good idea. Also, seems there are plenty of deals on the Debut models, but I'm only seeing full-price genies domestically.

The other idea is to wait and see if I can come across a model a bit higher up used. I guess I am wondering if it is worth maybe tossing in another 1 or 2 hundred dollars and looking at a model just about the debut or perhaps a used Music Hall 5.0 or 5.1 if a bargain comes across. Am I really getting that much more to wait and/or spend a bit more?

I plan on sticking with the Denon 103 and Denon transformer I am already using so the cartridge doesn't matter if I buy used.

Any suggestions? Just grab a Debut? Wait for something higher up the line to show up used? (And no, not another Technics. I like the one I have fine and all, just wanting a bit of a change. Other non-vintage suggestions welcome, but I'm not really handy and figure one vintage table will be enough for me.)

[frenchmon]

Here's an interesting thread about the Debuts.

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38554

[poppachubby]

Hey nobody.

The Genie was released in N America relatively recent. Until that point, it was in their Euro line. That said, this is why you're not finding them used. If you hit the net, like Ebay, you can find them selling used out of Europe. I have heard all of these tables.

Truthfully, I was dissapointed in the Genie. I mean, I loved the look of it, and the design seemed superb. Lots of trickle down concepts from the higher end tables. The only question was the S-arm. Sure enough, when it came time to listen, that arm was a huge let down.

Firstly I listened to the Genie against the Debut and frankly, I found they were a bit different, but not particualrily better than one another. Now...we pulled out the Expression Mahogany and boom!! The Expression easily bested both tables and was delivering some real music.

In the Pro-Ject line, once you hit the tables with the carbon arm, the 9cc, you're in for some music. I think you should most definitely save a bit more and aim for something along the lines of the Expression/Music hall 5.1. Definitely check the used market and save some cash.

Y'know, I had a deck just like yours and when I finally moved up...I was in shock. I know you love the music and the gear is just a means to an end, but Davey...you owe it to yourself to move up the ladder just one more rung. I promise you once you do, you will thank me and your love of analog will be reaffirmed. I think you should do this thing right, and then sit pretty for years to come. Dude I haven't had a want for gear in quite a while.

I think a nice option as opposed to the newer decks would be any of the older suspension decks with a nice arm on it. They can be found for a steal and sound superb.

Anyhow I hope I wasn't too overbearing...keep in touch.

[JohnMichael]

I hate to be a one note member but how about a used Rega Planar 2? The table is good as is and their are many after market parts to improve the performance if you become interested. Many use and enjoy the table as Rega designed it.

I had a Thorens that was made by Project. I had troubles with the electronics for the motor and after the second time out for repair the table was returned and the tonearm was loose in it's four point bearing housing. That is why I am biased against Project manufactured tables.

The Rega Planar2 has operated flawlessly for over a dozen years. I should add in spite of all I have done to it.

[poppachubby]

No you're right John, I think all decks which fall under his budget should gain consideration. Perhaps on the used market, he can find a modded Rega 2 for the same cash. It's certainly not a purchase to be hasty about.

Hey are you the same John I used to chat with on here? How the hell are ya?! Lol. John I need to PM you about our "arrangement", no not the one where I where the mask.

[JohnMichael]

No you're right John, I think all decks which fall under his budget should gain consideration. Perhaps on the used market, he can find a modded Rega 2 for the same cash. It's certainly not a purchase to be hasty about.

Hey are you the same John I used to chat with on here? How the hell are ya?! Lol. John I need to PM you about our "arrangement", no not the one where I where the mask.



I am learning about the world through my dog's perspective. I must say it is nice coming home and having him there and so glad to see me. I finally have something young and cute willing to sit in my lap and give me kisses.

[02audionoob]

I agree with the idea of buying used and also with the idea of moving up just a little beyond the bottom rung. I have a Debut III (for the wife) and for a year or two I had a Music Hall MMF-5. The MMF-5 was absolutely superior. Pro-Ject's Xpression turntables are also worth the step up. As mentioned already, the P2 is nice option, as are Rega's clones re-badged for NAD and Goldring.

If I had the budget for a Debut III and definitely wanted new, I'd probably save a bit more and go for the Rega RP1. If that wasn't an option for whatever reason, I'd go with the Debut III and be happy. A word of warning, though...some people find they actually prefer the turntable they "upgraded" from.

[RGA]

I liked the Project Debut a lot better than my NAD 533 - which is a Rega P2 clone made by Rega - same exact table same exact tone arm Project to me sounded much better.

But frankly if I could do it all over again - I would skip all of these middle of the road tables. I would go right to an Audio Note TT1 as basically the very entry level turntable I would be willing to go to. Sure it costs more but it can also be the last table you'll own. $900 for an older series version (they sell both currently) isn't crazy money. Comes with a turbo charged Rega 250. May get it cheaper since Audio Note is no longer going to use the Rega 250 tone arms so they may be a bit of a deal. They like the SME arms as an upgrade over their own and offer a rewire kit for them, and they have their new tone arms which are apparently very inexpensive for the quality they're offering. Well according to forums in the UK where people have had a chance at them.

The TT1 is such a massive upgrade over the likes of Rega and Project that I'd skip that step. There are other fine tables - but to me I always felt something lacking with those inexpensive tables and I wanted more and more. The TT2 system I have is to a point where I don't feel like I want more - there is more mind you. But I am not at a point where I say - gee I need more of this or more of that. With the Nad and duals and others I always grumbled that something was wrong. I felt that with the Clearaudio Emotion, Roksan Radius 5 and several other pricey decks. I'd definitely try a suspended turntable of high quality. The TT1 would be as entry level as I would go. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm

[nobody]

Yeah, I think I'm looking to start saving a bit more and keeping my eyes peeled for a good used deal. I'm interested in getting into something new, but I don't want to just spend a few hundred bucks on something that doesn't show much improvement when being patient can yield better results.

I can't say I don't like the notion of grabbing something like an older Thorens and putting a higher end arm on it, but I really do have a bit of a craving for something a but more modern since pretty much every table I have owned has fallen in the vintage category.

[02audionoob]

You could put a Moth Arm1 (http://www.britaudio.com/Tone_Arms.html) (Rega RB251) tonearm on a turntable like this VPI HW19 II (http://goodwinshighend.com/used.htm) and have a nice setup.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey there, nobody.
It's been a while, huh?

Here is something you might want to check.
If I remember correctly, the Debut's platter is made of steel and LOMCs' strong magnet will stick..
If strong enough, I would be worried that it will damage the Denon's suspension. Also, the tonearm may not have enough mass for the Denon's low compliance.

I'm sure some would say it would work just fine, but I would look for something different.
Just my 2 cents...

PS - I thought you had a fully automatic Thorens?

[jrhymeammo]

I like 02audionoob's suggestion.
If you are going to stick with Denon 103, then I would be interested in a SA-250S or SA-750D as well.

[JohnMichael]

You could put a Moth Arm1 (http://www.britaudio.com/Tone_Arms.html) (Rega RB251) tonearm on a turntable like this VPI HW19 II (http://goodwinshighend.com/used.htm) and have a nice setup.



Depending on the age of the table you might need the RB250 if it is designed for the original mount. My RB250 tonearm has improved greatly with the Incognito rewire but as important was the Michell Tecnoweight counterweight. The improvement in tracking is incredible. Oh and never use the Rega cartridge alignment.

[nobody]

Just my 2 cents...

PS - I thought you had a fully automatic Thorens?

Yeah, then that got damaged in a move and I went with the Technics I am using now.

And I appreciate all the suggestions, looks like a bit of saving and waiting is best here.

[poppachubby]

Yeah, then that got damaged in a move and I went with the Technics I am using now.

And I appreciate all the suggestions, looks like a bit of saving and waiting is best here.

This is the stage where auditioning and research would be a good idea too. Familiarize yourself with the market so when the time comes, you will be an authority on what you need.

[frenchmon]

Hey nobody....what part of the country do you live in? Are you any where close to St. Louis?

My dealer sells out of his house after closing his store. So that means no over head and he can beat every one around here on prices. I have one audio buddy over at Audiokarma come down from Ohio and purchase a mmf-7.1 with Cart because he could find no dealer up there, and my dealer was able to be online prices. I know as a fact my dealer has a demo mmf-5.1 besides new ones.

And right now as I type this, there is a mmf-5 with a gold ring cart for sell on audiogon for $349.

[nobody]

I am actually in St. Louis, and I saw and was thinking about that MMF 5.0. Curious what the difference is between that and the 5.1. I'm seeing dramatic differences in the price used between those but no idea if the difference in performance is huge as well.

This thread has me kinda convinced to save and look around a bit. I'd hate to bother a dealer, especially one who would have to make a special appointment, if I'm not ready to buy yet. But eventually that could be a good option because otherwise I am just flying blind with online suggestions and not actually laying hands on anything. I could possibly save myself a whole lot of hassle and uncertainty, and maybe disappointment if I took a chance on the wrong something, by being able to actually get a look and listen to something.

[frenchmon]

I am actually in St. Louis, and I saw and was thinking about that MMF 5.0. Curious what the difference is between that and the 5.1. I'm seeing dramatic differences in the price used between those but no idea if the difference in performance is huge as well.

This thread has me kinda convinced to save and look around a bit. I'd hate to bother a dealer, especially one who would have to make a special appointment, if I'm not ready to buy yet. But eventually that could be a good option because otherwise I am just flying blind with online suggestions and not actually laying hands on anything. I could possibly save myself a whole lot of hassle and uncertainty, and maybe disappointment if I took a chance on the wrong something, by being able to actually get a look and listen to something.

What??? You live in St.Louis? Did Peabody know that? Where bouts?

Hey I got the hook up for you with a spanking brand new mmf-5.1 or the Se or any of the Music Hall tables if you are interested. Shoot me a PM if you are.

And I can actually meet you over at my dealers house to take a listen to the 5.1 and if you like, he can sell you the demo or a brand new one with or without cart...all at below cost.

The difference would be the arms...the 5.1 has fiber glass where as the 5 has metal. I also think the 5 has a different platter...the 5.1 has a glass platter. audionoob actually had the mmf-5 and really liked it alot. But keep in mind the 5 has had motor issues. noob relaced the motor in his. The only problem is buying used, you may be getting some other persons problem seeing the 5 has had issues. With a new one you get warranty. Pro-ject has come out with a fix for those who have problems and they are installing them already on the new Debut tables from what I understand. I assume it trickles over to the Music Hall tables, but am not sure.

So let me know if you are interested.


So thats you , me, Peabody and misstl who all live in St. Louis....thats good.

[nobody]

I'm on the south side, not too far from Bevo Mill. I'll shoot ya a message.

[frenchmon]

I'm on the south side, not too far from Bevo Mill. I'll shoot ya a message.

Wow...im actually in St. Charles....you are very close to Peabody. He is off of Gavois.. Shoot...you and I can meet at peabodys one Saturday night.

[nobody]

I drive down Gravois to work and back every day.

[frenchmon]

I drive down Gravois to work and back every day.

I'll give Peabody a call and see if we can all meet at his place maybe Saturday night if you are good with that?

[nobody]

All booked up this weekend. But, I'd be fine with a gathering sometime.

[frenchmon]

All booked up this weekend. But, I'd be fine with a gathering sometime.

Thats cool and it was a short noticed as well so, my bad....im headed over there any ways with my Vincent to see how it performs compared to his high dollar Conrad Johnson preamp.

[nobody]

Sounds like you two have some gear I'd be curious to hear as I've never done much listening to stuff in that range before. Drop me a PM sometime when you two are going to be listening again.

[nobody]

Well, I think I have it narrowed down to a Music Hall mmf 5.1 that a local guy can get cheap (thanks Frenchy), a Pro-ject RM 5.1 SE if I can find a good deal on it (anyone have a lead there, feel free to let me know - missed my chance at a couple demo models and all the prices I see posted are full list price), and an outside thought at considering a P3-24 as I see some places are closing them out pretty cheaply with the new model coming in.

Any thoughts?

[02audionoob]

I think the P3-24 is the top turntable priced under $1,000. It’s a very nice performer in stock form with a Rega cartridge. A few mods can take its performance significantly higher. The mods I think are good value are a nice cartridge like an Ortofon 2M Blue, tonearm shims, a GrooveTracer subplatter and Rega’s white belt. I think there is also some value to Rega’s TTPSU, although it’s not huge. That’s around $800 in upgrades, so it’s certainly a significant cost, but all are worthwhile.


The MMF-5.1 seems to be tops at its price point, especially if you’re getting a discount. I don’t think a cartridge upgrade would be necessary, but if I had an MMF-5.1 I might want to try to get hold of a glass platter from an MMF-5. Although my own preference is the Rega sound (by a nose), the Rega turntables sound a little forward and thin to some people’s ears. I don’t see this as being the case with Music Hall and Pro-Ject. My MMF-5 sounded a tad laid back to my ears, with a bit of tubbiness that was pleasant and gave a nice illusion of fullness. I enjoyed that turntable and occasionally wish I still had one…if I had a place for another turntable.

So I suppose the long story short is – I think you might just be very happy with either one.<O:p</O:p

[nobody]

Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.

[frenchmon]

I think the P3-24 is the top turntable priced under $1,000. It’s a very nice performer in stock form with a Rega cartridge. A few mods can take its performance significantly higher. The mods I think are good value are a nice cartridge like an Ortofon 2M Blue, tonearm shims, a GrooveTracer subplatter and Rega’s white belt. I think there is also some value to Rega’s TTPSU, although it’s not huge. That’s around $800 in upgrades, so it’s certainly a significant cost, but all are worthwhile.


The MMF-5.1 seems to be tops at its price point, especially if you’re getting a discount. I don’t think a cartridge upgrade would be necessary, but if I had an MMF-5.1 I might want to try to get hold of a glass platter from an MMF-5. Although my own preference is the Rega sound (by a nose), the Rega turntables sound a little forward and thin to some people’s ears. I don’t see this as being the case with Music Hall and Pro-Ject. My MMF-5 sounded a tad laid back to my ears, with a bit of tubbiness that was pleasant and gave a nice illusion of fullness. I enjoyed that turntable and occasionally wish I still had one…if I had a place for another turntable.

So I suppose the long story short is – I think you might just be very happy with either one.<O:p</O:p

noob....what do you mean? There is always a place for another turntable. I really did not care for that cart that came on the Rega P3-24. But from what I could tell of the Table it was nice....its just that cart to my ears and Peabodys was kinda dull and dry. My $99 2M Red best it.

[frenchmon]

Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.

If its going to be your last table...Rega may give you the best upgrade path. Me personally I like plug and play tables that I can tweak rather than upgrade.

[JohnMichael]

I think either the Deepgroove or Groove Tracer subplatter is a good tweak. On of the claims of the Deepgroove subplatter is very slightly larger to address the 1% faster speed the Rega's are known for and the greater mass creates a better flywheel effect. I do not think using one of the subplatters you would need the TTPSU.

I cannot comment on Rega cartridges but my Ortofon OM 20 worked well in the arm and I have no doubt the new models also will. Rega makes a nice 3 point spacer that has the option of 2mm, 4mm and 6mm. I once again must say that I do not use or like the Rega Cartridge alignment. Of course if you have a factory mounted Rega cart I would not worry about a different alignment until you change to a different cart if you do.

Another improvement I recommend is the Michell Technoweight counterweight. The lowered counterweight puts it in the same plane as the cartridge. This improves tracking and to my ears reduces surface noise. You could even decide to set the tracking force with the spring downward force or the counterweight itself.

I have enjoyed my Rega not only for the music it makes but the fun of tweaking. Over a decade old and still pleases.

[nobody]

I don't see myself tweaking too much if at all. I mean, if you enjoy it that's great but before I'd pour another thousand dollars into a table under a thousand I feel like I'd be better off waiting until I can just buy a better table. The tweaking part isn't something I consider fun.

I'm wanting something I can plug in and use for 5 years or more say and be content with though. Don't want to buy something where I'm spending half my time wondering if I should have spent another hundred or two hundred bucks for something better/different.

[JohnMichael]

I don't see myself tweaking too much if at all. I mean, if you enjoy it that's great but before I'd pour another thousand dollars into a table under a thousand I feel like I'd be better off waiting until I can just buy a better table. The tweaking part isn't something I consider fun.

I'm wanting something I can plug in and use for 5 years or more say and be content with though. Don't want to buy something where I'm spending half my time wondering if I should have spent another hundred or two hundred bucks for something better/different.



The Rega P3 is a great table as are a number of cars. Many people drive the car stock and some cannot help getting under the hood for improved performance. So yes the Rega is very good on it's own and will last for years.

The P3 has many improvements in design by Rega since it's first release. The motor is now rigidly mounted and the tonearm has the superior 3 point mounting. These improvements have raised the performance bar. I am considering the latest design RP3. Of course I am still happy with my tweaked Planar2.

[nobody]

Good to know.

[frenchmon]

The Rega P3 is a great table as are a number of cars. Many people drive the car stock and some cannot help getting under the hood for improved performance. So yes the Rega is very good on it's own and will last for years.

The P3 has many improvements in design by Rega since it's first release. The motor is now rigidly mounted and the tonearm has the superior 3 point mounting. These improvements have raised the performance bar. I am considering the latest design RP3. Of course I am still happy with my tweaked Planar2.

JM...how close are you on pulling the trigger?

It will be great in that fine system of yours.

[02audionoob]

Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.

The main things I remember being changed were the tonearm, the platter and the interconnects. The MMF-5 had the 8.6-inch tonearm from the Pro-Ject 1.2, the glass platter and captive low-end interconnects. The MMF-5.1 has the current-model Pro-Ject 9 tonearm, the alloy platter and an RCA junction box.

At some point during the run of the MMF-5 Music Hall changed the motor from the 120V model to the 16V model. The 120V motor might be a little harder to find as a replacement part now that it seems to be obsolete from both the Pro-Ject and Music Hall lineups. This is mildly important in that the motors do have a little bit of a tendency to develop a buzz and it seems like maybe it’s more common in the 120V model. Somehow, someway, I’m guessing that 120V motor will be around as a spare part for a while, but who knows for sure. Even assuming the 120V motor is available, the 16V motor would be more desirable in that it works with the Pro-Ject Speed Box. For the 120V models there’s the Music Hall Cruise Control.

With any of these turntables, they’re no slouches in stock form…even with the metal platter. But if I were to keep the metal platter, I might be interested in trying out other mat options besides felt…maybe a Herbie’s Way Excellent mat.<O:p</O:p

[02audionoob]

Regarding the Rega turntables and their tendency to run fast - It is my understanding this was corrected long ago. My P5's stock subplatter is the same as is used for the lower turntables in the Rega lineup and I timed it to check for this issue before I upgraded to the GrooveTracer. With the stock subplatter, timing with a stopwatch for 3 minutes, I counted 100 turns...not anywhere near 101. The editor of Tone Audio had this to say on the issue (although I of course would not say he's the final word), calling it Myth #1:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6149/6006941700_360fa58245.jpg

Given that, if overall speed accuracy is what you're after, you won't need a subplatter upgrade on the Rega turntables. The metal subplatters and the accompanying bearing upgrade will provide other improvements that are audible to many. I believe the sound is slightly smoother, tighter and cleaner...enough to make the upgrade worth my money, although I'd admit it might not be worth it to every Rega owner.

[Jack in Wilmington]

The main things I remember being changed were the tonearm, the platter and the interconnects. The MMF-5 had the 8.6-inch tonearm from the Pro-Ject 1.2, the glass platter and captive low-end interconnects. The MMF-5.1 has the current-model Pro-Ject 9 tonearm, the alloy platter and an RCA junction box.

At some point during the run of the MMF-5 Music Hall changed the motor from the 120V model to the 16V model. The 120V motor might be a little harder to find as a replacement part now that it seems to be obsolete from both the Pro-Ject and Music Hall lineups. This is mildly important in that the motors do have a little bit of a tendency to develop a buzz and it seems like maybe it’s more common in the 120V model. Somehow, someway, I’m guessing that 120V motor will be around as a spare part for a while, but who knows for sure. Even assuming the 120V motor is available, the 16V motor would be more desirable in that it works with the Pro-Ject Speed Box. For the 120V models there’s the Music Hall Cruise Control.

With any of these turntables, they’re no slouches in stock form…even with the metal platter. But if I were to keep the metal platter, I might be interested in trying out other mat options besides felt…maybe a Herbie’s Way Excellent mat.<O:p</O:p


I can attest to the performance of the Herbie's Mat. I got tired of the felt mat real fast. With the threaded spindle clamp, I feel much more secure with the Herbie's mat underneath.

[JohnMichael]

Regarding the Rega turntables and their tendency to run fast - It is my understanding this was corrected long ago. My P5's stock subplatter is the same as is used for the lower turntables in the Rega lineup and I timed it to check for this issue before I upgraded to the GrooveTracer. With the stock subplatter, timing with a stopwatch for 3 minutes, I counted 100 turns...not anywhere near 101. The editor of Tone Audio had this to say on the issue (although I of course would not say he's the final word), calling it Myth #1:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6149/6006941700_360fa58245.jpg

Given that, if overall speed accuracy is what you're after, you won't need a subplatter upgrade on the Rega turntables. The metal subplatters and the accompanying bearing upgrade will provide other improvements that are audible to many. I believe the sound is slightly smoother, tighter and cleaner...enough to make the upgrade worth my money, although I'd admit it might not be worth it to every Rega owner.



It used to be said that the Rega's sounded better in England than they did here and that was due to the difference of 50 hz to 60 hz power.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-planar-5-planar-7-turntables-follow-march-2005


Rega Planar 5 & Planar 7 turntables Follow-Up, March 2005



AD returned to the Regas in March 2005 (Vol.28 No.3):
In his February 2003 "Analog Corner" column (Vol.26 No.2), Michael Fremer had some interesting things to say about speed accuracy in contemporary turntables. In particular, he observed that a goodly number of them run at least 1% fast, and he wondered if that sprang from a deliberate effort on the part of some manufacturers to create a more appealing sound. "Things sound snappy and lively" when a record is played back on a fast-running turntable, he wrote, with stereo images seeming to shift forward. "I don't know if this represents a mere sample-to-sample variation," Mikey continued, "or if it's a plot to give these 'tables a snappy delivery, as some who shall remain nameless have charged."

As I said, interesting stuff—but what does it have to do with me? And why did I wait two years to react?

Because the Rega Planar 3 was among the turntables Mikey found to be running fast—and that might lead one to wonder, not unreasonably, if the same might be true of Rega's new Planar 5 ($1295) and Planar 7 ($2595) models. Which I'd just reviewed, for the December 2004 issue. Since the P5 and P7 were still in my house at the time Mikey and I exchanged e-mails on the subject, a clear answer was clearly within reach—so I set about testing them.

[02audionoob]

JM - That's a remarkable improvement with the P5. Art Dudley wrote that it ran 0.1% fast, as opposed to the previous models running 1% fast, and even notes this was without accounting for stylus drag.

[daviethek]

Regardless of preference, I think it is worth considering a table that allows you to use your own interconnects. That would be a starting point for me. I think you have a bit more power over the sound that way.

I think I would look at the Project 5.1 combination with the Blue Point 2 cart. Its practically impossible to purchase the table with out the cart since they are bundled by Sumiko, but it is an intriguing 1K combination.with a mid level table..... If you can tolerate the style.

[nobody]

Well, that Pro-Ject is a heavy contender. From looking online, it looks to be my favorite and I have found a good deal on one. My only questions boil down to build quality and such. I tried looking around locally for tables and the only things I was able to actually see and lay hands on were a Rega RP1 and P3-24. Now both of these were actually impressive to me. They seemed well-made and I really am almost starting to lean toward grabbing a P3-24 if for no other reason than I can actually touch and feel it before buying, and I'd have support from a local dealer who provides service and upgrades and such.

The Pro-Ject RM 5.1 SE looks great in pictures but I have no idea how it is in reality. The Rega decks look like I could live with one of them for a while. The design has been stable forever, the arm is practically industry standard for even pricier tables, and they look well made to me. With the new RP3s coming out, it seems like there are some good deals on a P3-24 right now and I'd be surprised if the local guy wasn't willing to cut me a little break knowing this. With the Music Hall and Project tables (local dealers say they can get them but no one seems to actually have one I can look at) I feel like I am shooting a bit blind.

The local dealer thing really is a vicious circle. They can't afford to stock units when people are not buying or buying online. Then, when they don't stock units, without being able to go in and touch and feel something one of the biggest values a local dealer provides pretty much vanishes. Hell, I was interested enough in the Pro-Ject that if one of the three local places I went to today had one I could actually touch and feel and would at all be reasonable with price, I'd be setting the thing up right now. As it is, well, Rega is starting to look better and better just because I have been able to look one over up close and came away liking what I saw.

[daviethek]

I am jealous of your dealer situation. There basically are no delaers of Hi-fi turntables within a 50 mile radius of me and that includes maybe 1.4 million people. All of my assumptions are from the internet. Strange how that works. I never heard of Rega tables when I was a kid living in Chicago but the intetrnet has allowed us considerable input with these tables. I think that has made the job of selection fun or tedious depending on your point of view.

I really dont know what my last table will be. I am thinking maybe the Marantz/Clearaudio combo for 1,500. We all have our spending limits.

[JohnMichael]

Regardless of preference, I think it is worth considering a table that allows you to use your own interconnects. That would be a starting point for me. I think you have a bit more power over the sound that way.

I think I would look at the Project 5.1 combination with the Blue Point 2 cart. Its practically impossible to purchase the table with out the cart since they are bundled by Sumiko, but it is an intriguing 1K combination.with a mid level table..... If you can tolerate the style.



I would like to ask why are interchangeable IC's important to you? I am from the school of thought where you want continuous wire from the cartridge clips to the RCA plugs. The low signal output of my moving coil cartridge does not have to travel through different wires and many solder joints and different metals.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I would like to ask why are interchangeable IC's important to you? I am from the school of thought where you want continuous wire from the cartridge clips to the RCA plugs. The low signal output of my moving coil cartridge does not have to travel through different wires and many solder joints and different metals.

Hey JM, it looks like Davie along with the Frenchmon and I all have seen the value of swapping out the stock phono cable for a higher end model. I know Frenchie has raved about the difference his Analysis Plus cable made on his new MMF 7.1 and he got me to make the switch also. Maybe it's a Music Hall thing.

[JohnMichael]

Hey JM, it looks like Davie along with the Frenchmon and I all have seen the value of swapping out the stock phono cable for a higher end model. I know Frenchie has raved about the difference his Analysis Plus cable made on his new MMF 7.1 and he got me to make the switch also. Maybe it's a Music Hall thing.



I agree with switching out cables. I switched out my Rega wiring for the Incognito wiring. I chose that due to the continuous Cardas wire from cartridge clips all the way to the RCA's.

Now if the table has external RCA's and switching cables is easy then by all means. My only table was the Thorens built by Pro-ject and it had captive RCA cables. Once I posted I realized I did not know if the tables had rear mounted RCA's for easy IC change. I would recommend that if anyone was going to do a complete rewire to try the Incognito or any continuous wiring harness.

[frenchmon]

I actually think the 7.1 is a very very good table. It has perfect isolation and vibration control and a excellent arm. I've seen the Music Hall and some of the Pro-Ject table be laughed at and made to seem like they don't belong in the same conversation as Rega's and some other tables....for what I don't know.
I've seen people say the MH tables are cheaply built and are not as good as Rega's build quality. Both tables have had their share of problems thats for sure.

I've listened to the P3-24 and the P5. While the 7.1 may have a different presentation as all gear does its every bit as good as those tables and many tables in its price range. I've also listened to the P7...excellent.

All wiring in the 7.1 and its arm is said to be of high quality, but the rca cables are not said to be...just cables supplied with the table....just as cheap cables come with most gear. Shoot....even the SA-T1 came with cables that looked good but where bested by the A+ inter connect cables. I suspect that most Tables that come cables are not giving very good cables. So nothing wrong with adding your own cables if at all possible.

Just to clear up the Rega is great and Music Hall is not up to par talk...it was no one on these boards...

[02audionoob]

I don't know that I've seen too much belittling of Music Hall and Pro-Ject, although there are a very small few former Pro-ject owners on the VE forums who could stand to give it a rest. Among people who really know their way around the value end of the market, Pro-Ject tonearms seem to have become well-respected. Roy Hall takes the quality tonearm and puts it on an innovative plinth. It's good. No question.

By the way...Roy Hall apparently solved Pro-Ject's motor vibration long before this fix that has now hit the European market, given that his MMF-5 used the same motor and subplatter and did not have the Debut's vibration problem.

[nobody]

Just for the record, I didn't mean to say I thought Pro-Ject or Music Hall were necessarily shoddy at all. It's just the unknown thing. I was able to get a look at a Rage and it seemed like a quality product, even if it wasn't hooked up to listen, just examining the components certainly gave the impression of a high quality piece of gear. It seemed well made and impressive in that regard. The others may very well be too, but sight unseen, I really can't say. I think for that alone, the Rega may well be in the lead right now. Also, the more I think about it, the more I do also like the notion that it is a classic piece of gear that has passed the test of time.

[frenchmon]

02audionoob...I've seen some over at Audioasylum dog Pro-Ject and Music Hall only because they got the money to buy super high end tables...but I do strongly agree with your remarks over at Audiokarma about the tables not really being better than the other. I agree that they have different sound...and it does really boil down to preference.

nobody..my remarks where not directed at you at all...infact no body on these boards... I agree with everything you said. But if I where in your shoes...I'd wait and see what the 5.1 Wylie has is like before I made a decision. It may be the cheapest for the same performance of the other tables.

[nobody]

And after all that...I jumped on a lightly used RPM-4 that I happened across for a couple hundred and change.

<img src="http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/project_rpm4.jpg">

I figure this one is close enough that I can at least get a taste of these other tables, yet cheap enough that I'm not gonna stress on the decision for now. I figure this will do me for a decent amount of time and if I do decide I need something more I will wait and save up for more of a "final" table kinda rig down the line a bit.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. At the very least you all got me to slow down and really look around and do a bit of research and be patient until I just happened on what looked like a great deal to me. I'll let y'all know how I like it once it arrives and I am all set up.

[02audionoob]

Seems like a good decision. An RPM-4 is the sort of step up from the entry level that I think makes a nice difference.

[frenchmon]

Good choice....and you still got money for a few tweaks like a platform. Does it come with a cart? I forgot to tell you there is a placeon your side of town that sells all kind of used gear including carts. I think its call Alfa tech.
O

[nobody]

Yeah, this thing is cheap enough that basically I'm cleaning out my spare cart drawer and that will more than cover it. So if I want some extras I can pick up some...or buy more records. It comes with a cart, low end Ortofon. I'll slap my Denon 103 on there though. Looking forward to a new toy for sure.

I ran across Alpha Tech when I was looking for someone to do some repairs, but I didn't realize they kept a used stock of gear. I'll have to keep that in mind.

[frenchmon]

Yeah...no one knows about it untill you go upstairs and then you be like a kid in a candy store. It mostly stuff people dropped Off to get fixed and never came back over the years.

[02audionoob]

The Pro-Ject would be better suited to cartridges with more of a medium compliance than the lower compliance the DL-103 has. It might track better with the Ortofon.

[nobody]

I'll give both a shot as long as I have 'em both on hand. I've just grown fond of the Denon over previous Ortofons I've tried higher up the scale than the one coming on the table. Compatibility could change that though I guess.

[frenchmon]

I'll give both a shot as long as I have 'em both on hand. I've just grown fond of the Denon over previous Ortofons I've tried higher up the scale than the one coming on the table. Compatibility could change that though I guess.

Nobody....just remember if you want to get a new ortofon, Grado, Goldring or Dynavector cart...Wylie is a dealer and get them at cheaper than normal.

http://www.mister-hifi.de/content/images_con/404_1654_s.jpg

Nice....

Do you have phono cables?

[nobody]

I'm not a big fancy cable guy, but I do have a set I plan on using as soon as this thing arrives.

I did some looking around about carts with the Pro-Ject arm and it seems that if you are using a cart that weighs over five grams you need a special heavier counterweight. The counterweights come in three sizes, depending on the weight of the cart you are using. I ordered the heaviest of the three and also have a couple weights to put on at the cartridge end of things if necessary. This should get the mass of the arm up to work with the Denon just fine from what I understand. If not, I'll maybe start thinking about another cart. I have heard good things about Dynavector carts.

[frenchmon]

I'm not a big fancy cable guy, but I do have a set I plan on using as soon as this thing arrives.

I did some looking around about carts with the Pro-Ject arm and it seems that if you are using a cart that weighs over five grams you need a special heavier counterweight. The counterweights come in three sizes, depending on the weight of the cart you are using. I ordered the heaviest of the three and also have a couple weights to put on at the cartridge end of things if necessary. This should get the mass of the arm up to work with the Denon just fine from what I understand. If not, I'll maybe start thinking about another cart. I have heard good things about Dynavector carts.

Oh...not a cable guy huh! Well seeing that you are in the same town (this place is hotter as all get out) we may have to drag you out over to Peabodys and have a cable shoot out.That way you will notice the difference. What cable are you using by the way?

Man I cant wait for your table to come.....that looks like a very nice table...its a looker from what I can tell. You gotta get some pictures up when it comes.

[nobody]

Oh yeah, I'll get some pics once it's all set up. I'm also picking up my changer for 78s tonight., so I'm gonna be spinning stacks of King Cole Trio, Fats Waller and Louis Armstrong 78s this evening. I also just drug up my Fried A/6 speakers out of the basement to take over for a while from my Ohm Walsh 2s and plan on drilling some holes in my flooring so I can get the speakers in a better position without having wires laying all over the floor. So yes, big changes underway.

(generic cables from Radio Shack is all I got except one set from Better Cables that I'll probably stick on the new table)

[frenchmon]

Oh yeah, I'll get some pics once it's all set up. I'm also picking up my changer for 78s tonight., so I'm gonna be spinning stacks of King Cole Trio, Fats Waller and Louis Armstrong 78s this evening. I also just drug up my Fried A/6 speakers out of the basement to take over for a while from my Ohm Walsh 2s and plan on drilling some holes in my flooring so I can get the speakers in a better position without having wires laying all over the floor. So yes, big changes underway.

(generic cables from Radio Shack is all I got except one set from Better Cables that I'll probably stick on the new table)

Well if you get interested in good prices for other cables...you know who to call....Sounds like you are having fun....

[nobody]

This mini splurge should keep me for a while. My next upgrade would probably be a new pre-amp before I'd get worried about cables. I may have to check the used section at Alpha Tech.

[frenchmon]

[QUOTE=nobody;366770]This mini splurge should keep me for a while. My next upgrade would probably be a new pre-amp before I'd get worried about cables. I may have to check the used section at Alpha Tech.[/QUOTE

Yeah...let me know when you go...I may try and meet you down there if the time is right. They are only open on week days and close at 5 pm so its kinda hard at times.

[02audionoob]

I'm not a big fancy cable guy, but I do have a set I plan on using as soon as this thing arrives.

I did some looking around about carts with the Pro-Ject arm and it seems that if you are using a cart that weighs over five grams you need a special heavier counterweight. The counterweights come in three sizes, depending on the weight of the cart you are using. I ordered the heaviest of the three and also have a couple weights to put on at the cartridge end of things if necessary. This should get the mass of the arm up to work with the Denon just fine from what I understand. If not, I'll maybe start thinking about another cart. I have heard good things about Dynavector carts.

That was a nice bit of research on your part. It is ordinarily pretty challenging to get the desired tracking force with the heavier cartridges without going up to the correct counterweight. I managed to get it set with the Goldring 2200 on my MMF-5 with that tonearm, but your DL-103 would be another gram heavier. Frenchmon got his Ortofon 2M Red set on a similar arm, but it too isn't quite as heavy as a DL-103.

I do agree the heavier counterweight and the DL-103's own weight are most likely going to keep the mass/compliance combination in the acceptable theoretical range. If you like the Denon sound, the DL-301 II might be the logical step up for this turntable when you're ready.

[nobody]

Yeah, I've been curious about the other Denons, but for now this is a cart I like and it's affordable. Plus, the transformer I have works with it well and I have no idea how it would work with the other carts as even within the Denon line I know the properties are quite different so expenses for a higher model may well go beyond just the cost of the cart.

It's now a race to see if the table or counterweight gets to me first. I kinda hope the table comes first so I will be forced to be patient and listen to its stock cart for a bit before fixing up the 103.

[frenchmon]

Hey man...that table come in yet?

[nobody]

Nope, tracking number isn't telling me exactly when, but it is on its way so I figure sometime this week, could be any day now really. I'll probably spend Saturday getting everything all set-up so looking forward to that. Probbaly just get it set up with the stock cartridge this weekend though as the heavier counterweight still hasn't shipped.

Getting curious about that Denon 301 Mk II as well down the road. I've read it works well with the transformer I already have and I've seen a really good price on it. I will be patient for a while, but I do see one of those in my future.

[frenchmon]

Hey man...I know that table is in...and you must be locked in your room with it and about 100 of your favorite albums cause we aint heard nothing from you. Wen you get done spinning let us know the verdict. Does she sound as good as she looks?

[nobody]

It got here Saturday..well actually Friday but I had to go pick up at the post office since I was not home when the mail came. I've been crazy busy this weekend and have just today gotten everything all set-up. So far so good. I'm really liking it. Definitely an improvement over the Technics I had. Not ridiculously dramatic, but significant. More detail in the midrange especially, blacker backgrounds, smoother top end. It's all slight individually, but taken together it all makes a pretty big difference. Bass a bit fuller, perhaps overly so but still messing with set-up a bit. Once I get it all set up and dialed in just right I'm sure it will be even better. Still waiting for the heavier counterweight and will want to get everything set to my liking. I'm also gonna keep my eyes open for one of those mechanical add on end of side things that lifts the arm that occasionally pop up. I get it as far as sound goes, but there are ways to provide a bit of convenience without mucking things up that would be nice if a few tables included. But, overall quite happy with it and expect it will last me quite a while before I feel a need for anything else.

I've also gotten my Dual back and it was all rejuvenated with new idler and everything, works great except that the base got smashed up in shipping, fortunately everything else is great on that one and I've propped it up on some pieces of wood to give some 78s a spin.

Once I get the new base for that one and the new counterweight and everything is all pretty, I'll post a couple shots of my totally revamped vinyl station.

OK...gonna go spin some Brian Eno and wind down from a long, busy weekend.

[frenchmon]

It got here Saturday..well actually Friday but I had to go pick up at the post office since I was not home when the mail came. I've been crazy busy this weekend and have just today gotten everything all set-up. So far so good. I'm really liking it. Definitely an improvement over the Technics I had. Not ridiculously dramatic, but significant. More detail in the midrange especially, blacker backgrounds, smoother top end. It's all slight individually, but taken together it all makes a pretty big difference. Bass a bit fuller, perhaps overly so but still messing with set-up a bit. Once I get it all set up and dialed in just right I'm sure it will be even better. Still waiting for the heavier counterweight and will want to get everything set to my liking. I'm also gonna keep my eyes open for one of those mechanical add on end of side things that lifts the arm that occasionally pop up. I get it as far as sound goes, but there are ways to provide a bit of convenience without mucking things up that would be nice if a few tables included. But, overall quite happy with it and expect it will last me quite a while before I feel a need for anything else.

I've also gotten my Dual back and it was all rejuvenated with new idler and everything, works great except that the base got smashed up in shipping, fortunately everything else is great on that one and I've propped it up on some pieces of wood to give some 78s a spin.

Once I get the new base for that one and the new counterweight and everything is all pretty, I'll post a couple shots of my totally revamped vinyl station.

OK...gonna go spin some Brian Eno and wind down from a long, busy weekend.


Well good for you....having fun. Sorry about you other table and the damage. DO get the pictures up asap. Thanks.

[dean_martin]

I should've jumped in earlier, but I'm a little frustrated with my 'table setup at the moment so i've been intentionally ignoring this thread, or at least trying to. I broke two of my cart leads and I've never soldered in my life. Anyhow, I've an old Pro-Ject 1.2 with an arm that's at least similar if not the same as what's on the RPM-4. (While mine is 8.6", the RPM-4 may have a true 9" arm.) I've tried several carts with it and my favorite is an Ortofon MC-3 Turbo which is a small/light-weight high output mc. It's the successor to the X3-MC. It's certainly not as heavy as the new M series and it's shaped differently from the OM series. The Pro-Ject arm can definitely handle a good low to mid-range mc. That RPM-4 is probably quieter than mine and could go higher up the mc food chain.

In a pinch, you can leave off the finger-lift. I haven't tried a Denon cart (not for lack of want to). You're right on target re the heavier counterweight with a Denon DL-103. A DL-110 or 160 if you can find one would probably be a nice match. Another cart that came highly recommended for the Pro-Ject arm is a Benze Ace. It's too bad auditioning carts is so difficult. Hell, it's impossible where I live. Congrats on the new 'table. I've tried to keep a direct drive and a belt-drive in the system, but the headshell on my Technics spoiled me and made me sloppy with the Pro-Ject.

[frenchmon]

I can see why you broke the cart leads. I have a Music Hall 2.1 which is basically the same table, and those leads are very thin. So have you fixed it yet? Or are you thinking of getting another table?

[dean_martin]

I can see why you broke the cart leads. I have a Music Hall 2.1 which is basically the same table, and those leads are very thin. So have you fixed it yet? Or are you thinking of getting another table?

Thinkin' about an upgrade and tryin' to fix the Pro-Ject at my leisure. Rega P-24 with TT-PSU (outboard power supply) is on sale. Pro-Ject Xperience Classic is on sale. Several options. Just need the dough. After almost 10 years with the Pro-Ject 1.2, I'm ready for a better belt-drive.

[02audionoob]

I broke a cartridge lead on a Debut III. Wow...those things are truly tiny. I had to fix it in a hurry, though. It's the wife's turntable. I was trying to see how a Rega Elys would work on it. It hummed, so I took it off right away, put the OM5E back on and never said a word to the missus.

[nobody]

Yeah, I switched the Ortofon this one came with out now for the Denon DL 103 and those leads are really, really thin. Almost wishing I hadn't just ordered a 301 Mkii because I will be a bit nerve racked changing carts again. And yeah, with enough weight the 103 does work fine and I am quite enjoying it thus far, but I couldn't resist trying the 301 at those Comet Supply prices and it really does look a better match for the table and arm so.... Besides from what I hear about delivery time with Comet, I'll probably be needing a new cart by the time it shows up anyway.

I'm not wild about the little felt mat on there. I actually like how the Platter Matter I have works with it, except that it is too thick for the threaded record clamp to work with it. Anyone know of a mat that is as thin as the felt maps but more of a heavy duty dampening kinda thing like the Platter Matter?

[frenchmon]

Try Herbies or Music Hall who makes a good matt.

[dean_martin]

I broke a cartridge lead on a Debut III. Wow...those things are truly tiny. I had to fix it in a hurry, though. It's the wife's turntable. I was trying to see how a Rega Elys would work on it. It hummed, so I took it off right away, put the OM5E back on and never said a word to the missus.

Dude . . .err noob! How'd you fix it?!

Do you see any pitfalls in attempting a project like replacing the tonearm wiring on a Pro-Ject? I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch if I found a good deal on some upgraded wiring. I found the tonearm cable below, but I don't know about compatibility, etc. and of course I've never soldered before, but as a weekend project I like the idea.

Dedicated Audio - Cardas (4) Strand, Braided 33AWG Tonearm Cable with Soldered Clips (http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/891/8824)

[02audionoob]

I broke the wire at the clip, so I just had to get it connected. I have a device called a Third Hand that I used for holding the clip while I made the repair. I burned the insulator off at the end of the wire with a lit match. Threaded the wire through and bent it over the clip with a pencil. Held the wire to the clip with a hot soldering iron. Touched it with the end of a strip of solder. That was pretty much it. Delicate work, but it went easily enough.

I don't know of any problem with a Cardas re-wire on the Pro-Ject tonearm, assuming that these wires aren't larger or heavier than the originals. I've thought about attempting a rewire largely for fun, but I don't want to mess with my Rega. I wish I had a turntable on hand that needed a rewire.

[JohnMichael]

I'm not wild about the little felt mat on there. I actually like how the Platter Matter I have works with it, except that it is too thick for the threaded record clamp to work with it. Anyone know of a mat that is as thin as the felt maps but more of a heavy duty dampening kinda thing like the Platter Matter?



Here is a link to my favorite mat. The Ringmat Anniversary mat.


Ringmat Developments - Anniversary Goldspot (http://www.ringmat.com/html/products/ringmat/annivgoldspot.html)

[frenchmon]

Dude . . .err noob! How'd you fix it?!

Do you see any pitfalls in attempting a project like replacing the tonearm wiring on a Pro-Ject? I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch if I found a good deal on some upgraded wiring. I found the tonearm cable below, but I don't know about compatibility, etc. and of course I've never soldered before, but as a weekend project I like the idea.

Dedicated Audio - Cardas (4) Strand, Braided 33AWG Tonearm Cable with Soldered Clips (http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/891/8824)

If you can get er done...I suspect it will be a better and more clear sound ...better resolution than whats on it now. IF you got the cash to spare...and the time, I would go for it.

[nobody]

Here's the promised pics..

You get the cabinet where it all site, the new Pro-Ject and the Dual for 78s. The Pro-Ject has th extra heavy counterweight along with a 2 gram weight on the cart to give the arm extra mass for the Denon DL-103. Cart runs through a Denon transformer into the Bellari. The Dual is set-up with an Ortofon OM78. Right now I am running it through the Bellari too, just switching cords. I've got an extra input on the pre-amp so may consider a 78 specific phono amp at some point, but getting all this upgraded and running is good for now. You can also see a Bluetooth receiver that gets used when people are over and I don't want to be distracted with changing records and all that.

Digging this set-up right now.

[frenchmon]

Boyeee! Loke at you! Thats a nice set up man! Hows the Bellari? and tell me how the blue tooth is working out? You streaming music upstairs? The Tables look nice!

[nobody]

I like the Bellari. I don't have a tone of experience with phono amps so don't want to say too much. But I do like it better than the Parasound I was using before I got it (the Parasound was nice, but a bit noisy) and I really like the USB output for recording vinyl to the computer. It doesn't have a ton of gain, but with the step-up transformer it is plenty.

The Bluetooth is because I have all my MP3s on the Amazon cloud and then stream them through my phone. So when I just want easy and don't wanna mess or don't plan on being available to get up and down to change records, I can just play the stream through my phone to the Bluetooth. I'm single story so no idea how it works from floor to floor. I use the Bluetooth stream with my car stereo too. Quality is not near what you get from vinyl or even CD, but it is comparable to hooking the iPod up to the stereo. In fact, it's pretty much made my iPod obsolete, which is good since I couldn't stand iTunes. But when I want good sound over hands free, it's not an option I would suggest.