B&W 602 Question

[blackraven]

I picked up a used pair of B&W 602 S1's for my son at $250 and have 1 week to return them. They seem to have a slightly bloated bottom end and recessed treble. They sound better when I stuffed the front ports with foam.

My question is- How different are the 602 S2's? The store I bought them from have a pair of the S2's for $350. Are these even worth the price?. We looked at a pair of paradigm mini monitors and I have found a used pair on Ebay. We are also looking at Wharefdale Diamond 9.4's, Mordaunt Short MS914 floor standers.

[BallinWithNash]

Not sure about the B&W's but the new Paradigm Atom monitors are cheap and great! They will blow you away with how good they sound for there price.

[blackraven]

Not sure about the B&W's but the new Paradigm Atom monitors are cheap and great! They will blow you away with how good they sound for there price.

We listened to the Paradigm Mini Monitors and Titans yesterday. My son really liked the Mini's and felt that the Titans were a little harsh even though they use the same drivers. We may end up returning the 602's (we are going to take a listen to the 602 S2's) and end up with the Mini Monitors or I may buy the PSB B5's for him. The budget is $300-350. I'd like to find a used pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.2's or 10.2's but they are no where to be found.

[frenchmon]

Musicdirect has them...

http://www.musicdirect.com/m-485-wharfedale.aspx

[blackraven]

Thanks Frenchmon, it looks like the Wharfedales are out of my son's budget of $300-350.

[blackraven]

Update on the 602's. We returned the B&W 602 S1's and picked up the 602 S2's for $325pr. What a difference in sound. The bottom end is not bloated. The bass is more controlled and does not dominate the sound. There is treble now where the S1's had none. There is a wider sound stage and a little more air. Overall the speaker is more balanced. The S1's where the most tonally imbalanced speakers that I have heard. We may have a keeper in the S2's. I don't think we could have done any better for $325. We will live with them for a week and make a final decision on them.

[harley .guy07]

Yeah the 600 series B&W speakers went through some odd changes over the years as far as their sound went. When I sold B&W back in the 90's they had just came out with their 600 series with the yellow kevlar driver and everybody rushed in to hear them but to me they had terrible bass and while the mids were very detailed they could be harsh with everything but lighter music and the treble was way to harsh for my tastes. They made my ears bleed after 15 minutes but as the years have went on it seems that they have perfected their more affordable speakers. They are not my cup of tea but they must be a lot of peoples because they sell an awful lot of speakers. I am not be any means saying you made a bad purchase and if the front end of the system that will be running them has a warmer character then they might be the perfect match for your son and depending on his age he might like the more detailed and sharp sound, I know I liked it better when I was in my teens than I every did when I got older.

[RGA]

Yeah the 600 series B&W speakers went through some odd changes over the years as far as their sound went. When I sold B&W back in the 90's they had just came out with their 600 series with the yellow kevlar driver and everybody rushed in to hear them but to me they had terrible bass and while the mids were very detailed they could be harsh with everything but lighter music and the treble was way to harsh for my tastes. They made my ears bleed after 15 minutes but as the years have went on it seems that they have perfected their more affordable speakers. They are not my cup of tea but they must be a lot of peoples because they sell an awful lot of speakers. I am not be any means saying you made a bad purchase and if the front end of the system that will be running them has a warmer character then they might be the perfect match for your son and depending on his age he might like the more detailed and sharp sound, I know I liked it better when I was in my teens than I every did when I got older.

The problem with some makers is they care more about interesting technical design than they care about the end result - engineers designing from a textbook rather than someone who actually listens to music and saying yes this is interesting but umm it sounds horrible so let's go back to the board. None of the Kevlar speakers they used really integrate with their treble band. The other issue is that they operate into early break-up which is the last thing you want to be hearing. In theory Kevlar should behave more like a metal driver in a pistonic (highly rigid drivers) and in theory have advantages over paper in that regard - but they go into very sudden breakup at the top of their pass band and it's very very audible. Though good Paper drivers self damp a lot better than metal or kevlar and certain plastics.

B&W's crossovers are typically 4khz and their midwoofer Kevlar speakers simply can't handle it and they beam break-up - and this is the 801 - they're best speakers for a long time. Then they have the sonic signature of the drivers issues which is just absolutely critical to good sound - no matter what you do with the crossover the fact is a metal tweeter covering the same range has a different sound producing the same frequency that a silk dome or ribbon or ESL has at that same frequency. Snell, AN, Quad go on about this that you have two drivers operating to cover the same instrument and if the drivers sound completely different (very different materials) then it will not sound cohesive no matter how sophisticated the crossover is. And even speakers I like like Sonist don't really get this right. You always hear the tweeter and the woofer. Martin Logan is an extreme example but it is the common complaint about the speaker. Some people can just hear this more often with less extreme examples.

I think this is arguably the biggest reason there is a huge fan base for panels and single driver loudspeaker - no really audible handoff of sound from one driver to the next. If you're making a dynamic driver system and using a woofer and a tweeter or several woofers and tweeters the goal SHOULD be to get as close to single driver sound as you can at the listening position while providing more bass and treble extension - otherwise just buy a Lowther or Quad.

A few interesting takes from Audio Asylum on drivers used in various speakers. Personally, I don't care what the hell the drivers are or how they were crossed over or whether they're in a box or not or panels or horns or omni-directional or whatever. I care about the end result and I think it really comes down to careful selection and voicing. Wharfedale uses Kevlar and IMO they do a good job for the money. I like the 602S2 and 602S3 based on the price performance ration - I am less enthused by the 700 and 800 series based on the price performance ratio. I can accept issues at $700 for the 600 series - not so much at $20,000.




Some quotes from folks at AA on speaker forum:
"Preventing zinginess requires selecting driver materials which exhibit good self-damping. Polyprop is one of those materials. Paper is another. Fabric also. Stiffer materials than these have a tendency to ring (lack self-damping). Woven kevlar rings. It's sound properties place it between polyprop and metal in terms of self-damping, stiffness, weight and sound. The material has a zingy sound. The weave increases the material's stiffness and woven kevlar sounds like a metal as a result (but rings slightly less).
If there were a perfect material then every speaker driver would be made of that material, so clearly the selection of drivers and the voicing of speakers reflects the tastes and priorities of the speaker's designers."



"Polypropylene is vacuum formed from a sheet and relies on a coating of 'lossy goo' to give the required loss - that is, to absorb sound waves traveling across its surface just enough so that they don't rebound back across the cone to the voice coil and then back again, etc, etc, but not too much so that the life is choked out of the music. All drivers are lossy, it's getting the right balance between weight, stiffness, and loss that separates good designers from geniuses.. Polypropylene is relatively heavy but it is not particularly stiff, so it tends to "lose" what some feel is a bit more than the optimum amount of musical "life," energy, and also detail. Further, from reported experience, the 'goo' tends to change its properties over time, which is one reason, I presume, that many manufacturers who use polypropylene drivers considerately keeps replacement drivers in stock. The BC 1's I owned briefly had replacement mid-woofers - though to be fair they were nearly twenty years old!

RADIAL is an injection-molded composite of a polymer with hollow glass microspheres embedded in it. The RADIAL patent explains that the key is to treat the surface of the microspheres so that they bond to the polymer. If this is done properly, the result is a light-weight but stiff material with optimum loss. Theoretically, it performs well as an absorber of unwanted excess acoustic energy while not suppressing minute sonic information.

A direct comparison of the drivers made of these two materials as implemented in Spendors and Harbeths definitely confirms the superior speed, energy, and detail of RADIAL. While the Harbeth 7 and 30 and the Spendor SP1/2 are all audibly flat through the heart of the midrange, the Harbeths simply have more to say about the performance of the music. There is more detail and the detail is more interesting, exciting, and engaging. It tends to specify whereas polypropylene tends to generalize and homogenize a bit."



"Based on measurements (courtesy Jon Atkinson) the Diamond tweeter appears to ring (counterintuitively) in its passband. Measurements also show that previous B&W aluminum domes did not ring. Perhaps the B&W marketing BS can't be believed after all.

Moreover, the worse problem with B&W speakers is actually the nasty, rasping sound produced by the Kevlar woofer as it breaks up at the top of its passband.

.../... I see no MEASURED advantage from operating kevlar drivers past the point of pistonic motion into break-up (which is common current B&W practice).

Notice the hump (low Q peak) at the top of the FST kevlar driver's passband in the model CDM9NT in the attached link (courtesy of Audio Ideas Guide). The reviewer's description of a papery, forward coloration of vocals and sounds that overlap the peaked up upper band of the FST kevlar driver is no coincidence.

Reference (courtesy of Stereophile):

B&W N801:

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?207:9


"I don't believe that there is any perfect reproduction technology or that either ribbons, stats, or dynamics are inherently superior to any other technology. I believe that the secret to musicality (and a successful speaker) is in the execution rather than in the technology and that the most important ingredient in achieving a "musical" product is a skilled ear in charge of product voicing.../...
[he] does not seem to have grasped the fact that an undamped speaker i.e. a critically and minimally damped speaker [] comes about as close to a box-free speaker, as it is possible to get without wrecking bass response and creating horrible sounding comb-filtering effects. After all we would not use boxes, if we did not absolutely have to (because they are a significant source of coloration.../...

I agree with you whole-heartedly about stats being dynamically challenged. They may do the texture and timbre thing well to some degree, but they NEVER produce concert level dynamics.

Dynamic speakers can produce these levels, so I fully understand your decision to concentrate your design efforts on dynamic speakers.

I, furthermore, have another criticism of stats and planars and that is that they are horribly beamy. Off-axis response suffers and anytime off-axis response suffers, you lose convincing timbre (of instruments and voices), as well as the sensation of "performers in the room." Stats lack power in the "power band" (100 Hz - 200 Hz), where much of the weight, warmth and meat (I like your meat on the bones analogy) of music comes from (this comes from limited dynamic range as well as bass comb-filtering). As a result stats can sound too small, too light, too ethereal and slightly artificial and unrealistic.

The dynamic and dispersion limitations of stats would be serious issues for me too (were I designing speakers) and I would probably also concentrate my efforts on dynamics (as you have done).

I am glad to hear that someone is building "my uncle's speakers," because I think much has been lost in the last twenty years in the push for impressive stats and meaningless marketing gimmicks (kevlar, anigre, Be tweeters, flowports, "W" sandwich drivers, "Nautilus technologies," and so on). The technology may be space age or interesting from a Unique Selling Point perspective (a marketing tool) but none of it has anything to do with good sound. Good sound comes from the application (and design skill) rather than from the materials used."

Thanks Blackraven and Harley guy - you made me go read about what people view as to drawbacks on certain designs - they all have drawbacks - all of them! And you have to choose which drawback you can live with. The 600 series I like due to the price - I actually prefer the sound of them to the 700 series. For whatever the reasons the tweeter on top doesn't work to my ear and the 600 series sounds more of a piece. The 302 I preferred to the 601 S2 simply because again the the 302 sounded cohesive and it didn't use kevlar so perhaps combined it sounded more pleasing over longer listening - but it didn't have either the bass or the treble openness or the hi-fi sound of the 600 series - though that's not a bad thing in many respects. And I like the Diamond 8.1 and 8.2 which I believe uses Kevlar (maybe not) and I preferred them to any of the similar priced B&W and paradigms at Soundhounds - Liked it a lot more than the Audio Note AX one as well and the Wharfedales cost less to boot.

[blackraven]

Thanks guys. My son just turned twenty and his taste in music varies from RR to classical. He has 1 week to return the S2's. I don't think that he could have done a lot better for $325. (he did not want any smaller speakers where he would need a sub, the S2's have decent bass). If he decides to return them then we will buy a pair of B-Stock PSB B-6's from saturdayaudio in chicago. They have them listed for $399, $100 off. Its a little over his budget but it would be worth it.

[DDeHaan]

I am in the same boat as Blackraven's son. I am looking to replace an ancient pair of EPI M100s that my Dad handed down to me. My budget is $300-$350 for a pair of book shelves, I was thinking about running a 2.1 set up though. I am young and I want this setup to be building blocks for a 5.1 system a little later on down the road. I plan on turning these book shelves into rears when I upgrade. So I want to make sure I don’t buy something that would have to be replaced when I want to up my system. I'm considering the Paradigm Atoms and the PSB B4s or B5s. Do you guys have any other suggestions in that price range or opinions about what I’m thinking? Should I drop the idea of adding a sub and just put the money into getting a better pair of bookshelves with a bigger woofer?

[blackraven]

I am in the same boat as Blackraven's son. I am looking to replace an ancient pair of EPI M100s that my Dad handed down to me. My budget is $300-$350 for a pair of book shelves, I was thinking about running a 2.1 set up though. I am young and I want this setup to be building blocks for a 5.1 system a little later on down the road. I plan on turning these book shelves into rears when I upgrade. So I want to make sure I don’t buy something that would have to be replaced when I want to up my system. I'm considering the Paradigm Atoms and the PSB B4s or B5s. Do you guys have any other suggestions in that price range or opinions about what I’m thinking? Should I drop the idea of adding a sub and just put the money into getting a better pair of bookshelves with a bigger woofer?

If you are planning to use these as rear speakers eventually then consider the PSB B4's, NHT Zero's or the Atoms. If you want something a little better for the time being then consider the options below.

I would opt for the PSB B5's. www.saturdayaudio.com has a pr of B stock for $299. (they may even have B stock on the B4's and Alpha B1's) There is also a pair of B&W 602 S3's on Ebay. If you are looking at Paradigm, then consider a pair of the Mini Monitors over the Atoms. They sound much better. Also consider a pair of PSB Alpha B1's which was a stereophile recommended Budget speaker of the year. You should be able to find them for $279pr but I would rather have the B5's.

[blackraven]

Today we returned the 602's and bought the B-stock PSB B6's from satudayaudio for $100 off the list of $499. We will get them in 2 days. The 602 S2's were too bright for some of the music my son listen's too. I'll give a review once they are broken in.

[Tarheel_]

Today we returned the 602's and bought the B-stock PSB B6's from satudayaudio for $100 off the list of $499. We will get them in 2 days. The 602 S2's were too bright for some of the music my son listen's too. I'll give a review once they are broken in.


good move...i found the B&Ws lacking in many areas (bookshelfs). We, my co-worker and I demoed alot of speakers in your price range, we found the PSBs to be very nice sounding. We also demoed the Paradigms, etc. See my prior posts for more information on what we found.

He's leaning heavily on the Paradigm SE1. They are above your budget, but have wonderful sound from such a small enclosure.

[Ajani]

In case you're still considering other options; Galen Carol Audio has new Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s selling for $350 with free shipping:

http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=722

[RGA]

Gotta say I'd be tempted by the Wharfedales over the others mentioned here. I heard a floorstander for $999 and it's probably the best sounding floorstander under a grand that I've auditioned. I heard the older series of Wharfedale's diamond line and they were terrific for the money.

It helps that Quad is involved in their design.

[blackraven]

It's too late, the PSB's are on their way. I could have bought the Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 floorstanders for $350 but I read that they can be boomy. We really wanted the 10.2's with the 6.5" woofer compared to the 5.25 in the 10.1's, but my son is already stretching his budget to $399 for the B6's (I'm footing $100 of that). If he doesn't like the sound of the B6's I will give him my Monitor Audio S1's that I use in my bedroom and take his B6's. Not a bad deal since the S1's listed for $650 but I bought them on close out for $440pr.

[arctikdeth]

I love the sound of B&W speakers!

[blackraven]

I love the sound of B&W speakers!

I like the sound of the B&W 685's but they were out of our price range at about $650pr. I would probably bought the Paradigm Titans in that price range though.

http://paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/bookshelf/paradigm/monitor-series/titan-monitor