To sub or not to sub, that is the question.

[Swish]

I bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 100s a year or so ago with the intent of using them as the fronts for my HT room which I'm in the process of building right now. I want to use them for stereo playback as well as for the various configurations in my 7.1 setup. However, I'm wondering if I should omit my Paradigm sub-woofer and set the 100s to 'large' and allow them to handle the bass management. They're certainly capable and another friend has done the same in his 5 channel setup, and I think his setup sounds just fine without a sub.

Any thoughts on this?

[GMichael]

Why not run the system with both?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 100s a year or so ago with the intent of using them as the fronts for my HT room which I'm in the process of building right now. I want to use them for stereo playback as well as for the various configurations in my 7.1 setup. However, I'm wondering if I should omit my Paradigm sub-woofer and set the 100s to 'large' and allow them to handle the bass management. They're certainly capable and another friend has done the same in his 5 channel setup, and I think his setup sounds just fine without a sub.

Any thoughts on this?

Keep the sub Swish. It increases the overall headroom of the system, and allows your amps to run easier by not having to reproduce the deep bass in the main channels. In reading the measurements in Stereophile, this speaker performance under 80hz practically begs for a subwoofer to accompany it. There is no way it will handle the bass from the L/R mains, and the LFE as well.

You could run them full range and still keep the subwoofer on the LFE as another option.

[Mr Peabody]

Have you heard your friend's system with a sub to compare? Even with my Dynaudio speakers which do bass well and play low I always preferred a sub for HT. I have yet to use a sub for 2-channel except in my 2nd system. The sub is more capable of giving you the physical feel of sound effects. I am also convinced a high quality sub can really make a HT system. I'm talking about a sub that is set up properly too, not one turned up too much. Your mains may allow you to hear an explosion but the sub makes you feel it as well. When I bought my 62" TV a few years back space was limited and I really wanted to go without a sub, and even more so when my Velodyne quit, however, after using a sub and then going without, it didn't take me long to begin looking for one. Even with a sub though I keep my mains to "large", the .1 still has dedicated LFE for the sub. Without a sub the mains really have to do more than what they normally would, you are asking them to do both the job of mains and a sub, by carrying the LFE in addition to whatever goes to main.

[Swish]

Why not run the system with both?

...the speaker setting from big to small and back each time. Well, I guess that's not that big of a deal, but I wish it were something that could be programmed into a Harmony remote.

[Swish]

Even with a sub though I keep my mains to "large", the .1 still has dedicated LFE for the sub. Without a sub the mains really have to do more than what they normally would, you are asking them to do both the job of mains and a sub, by carrying the LFE in addition to whatever goes to main.

I guess I need to fool around with the setting on my Rotel to see how that works. I guess you and Terrance have made this an easy decision for me. Keep the sub.

[Swish]

Keep the sub Swish. It increases the overall headroom of the system, and allows your amps to run easier by not having to reproduce the deep bass in the main channels. In reading the measurements in Stereophile, this speaker performance under 80hz practically begs for a subwoofer to accompany it. There is no way it will handle the bass from the L/R mains, and the LFE as well.

You could run them full range and still keep the subwoofer on the LFE as another option.

Thanks for the input and technical info. I'm going to keep the sub and do as Mr. Peabody said, keeping the mains as 'large' with the sub connected.

[GMichael]

...the speaker setting from big to small and back each time. Well, I guess that's not that big of a deal, but I wish it were something that could be programmed into a Harmony remote.

Switch back? I mean to leave the mains set to large and keep the sub as well.

[Swish]

Switch back? I mean to leave the mains set to large and keep the sub as well.

I didn't realize I could keep them as 'large' while running the sub. Thanks to all for the help. Some of the technical aspects of HT systems drive me batty, mostly because I don't have the time to read everything.

[bobsticks]

Even with a sub though I keep my mains to "large", the .1 still has dedicated LFE for the sub. Without a sub the mains really have to do more than what they normally would, you are asking them to do both the job of mains and a sub, by carrying the LFE in addition to whatever goes to main.


Keep the sub Swish. It increases the overall headroom of the system, and allows your amps to run easier by not having to reproduce the deep bass in the main channels. In reading the measurements in Stereophile, this speaker performance under 80hz practically begs for a subwoofer to accompany it. There is no way it will handle the bass from the L/R mains, and the LFE as well.

You could run them full range and still keep the subwoofer on the LFE as another option.

You probably don't need anymore affirmation but these are both good pieces of advice...and the way I configure my system too.

[Jim Clark]

Yeah, keep the sub. I didn't read every response word for word so it may be covered but you may be able to listen to music on "direct" stereo mode which won't use the sub and just use the 100's. That's how my Arcam preamp is at any rate. I'm assuming Rotel is similar. It may be an onscreen set up item for you. To be honest, with a decent CDP, which I assume you have, I personally think it's the way to go anyway.

[pixelthis]

I didn't realize I could keep them as 'large' while running the sub. Thanks to all for the help. Some of the technical aspects of HT systems drive me batty, mostly because I don't have the time to read everything.

Famous last words.
ENGINEERS are always doing stupid things. WHY set your mains
(or any other speaker) to limit the bass they emit? In most ht
setups you need all the bass you can get. This is like the "turbo"
switch on old computers. ALWAYS set all speakers to as
large a setting as you can get.:1:

[GMichael]

Famous last words.
ENGINEERS are always doing stupid things. WHY set your mains
(or any other speaker) to limit the bass they emit? In most ht
setups you need all the bass you can get. This is like the "turbo"
switch on old computers. ALWAYS set all speakers to as
large a setting as you can get.:1:



Untrue. Some mains can be harder to drive than others. Driving those with an entry level receiver can be tough. Setting the speakers to small and letting the sub handle anything below 80Hz can free up the amp's load and give it more headroom.

[Mr Peabody]

In addition to what GM already said, many of us use smaller surround speakers and crossing them over to allow very low frequencies to the sub actually gives more impact.

[Woochifer]

Those Studio 100s have plenty of bass, so you might want to try tweaking with the placement to see if you can better optimize the lows. You can try running the speakers on LARGE and use the subwoofer just for the LFE. That would work well with your speakers because of their range.

But, by setting the speakers to SMALL and using the receiver's bass management, it actually helps out your midrange by taking the low frequency load off the speaker drivers and the amp. If you can adjust the crossover frequency on your receiver, try a low setting like 40 Hz or 60 Hz. Even with full range mains, a subwoofer can help in other ways.

One advantage of using a subwoofer is that it allows you the flexibility to place it where the bass sounds optimal. Typically, the middle location along the wall, where the main speakers normally go, is less than ideal for bass reinforcement.

It also gives you the option of using a parametric equalizer to reduce any room-induced boominess (IMO, the room interactions can absolutely ruin the bass, and even the best subwoofers on the market cannot overcome bad acoustics and placement). Ideally, you want to make the bass as full and even as possible, and a subwoofer gives you a lot of paths to improving the lows.

One disadvantage with subs is that the coherency is not quite as good as with a full range speaker. You can address this if your receiver allows you to change the delay timing for the sub (or enter the distance for each channel). But, IMO the greater placement flexibility and option to EQ the sub produces a fuller and more satisfying sound overall.

But, bass really is one of those things that you need to take your time and work through. The lows are by far the most difficult area to get right with a HT setup, and it takes time, practice, and indeed getting familiarized with some of the technical concepts (such as room acoustics and boundary reinforcement). But, when you're done, the results speak for themselves.

[Woochifer]

Untrue. Some mains can be harder to drive than others. Driving those with an entry level receiver can be tough. Setting the speakers to small and letting the sub handle anything below 80Hz can free up the amp's load and give it more headroom.

Not to mention the placement flexibility and the option to EQ the sub by redirecting the lows away from the mains. The point of crossing over the mains is to let them focus on handling the midrange. I noticed an immediate improvement in the midrange coherency and clarity when I added my subwoofer. Taking the low frequency load off the receiver certainly doesn't hurt.

[Swish]

Those Studio 100s have plenty of bass, so you might want to try tweaking with the placement to see if you can better optimize the lows. You can try running the speakers on LARGE and use the subwoofer just for the LFE. That would work well with your speakers because of their range.

But, by setting the speakers to SMALL and using the receiver's bass management, it actually helps out your midrange by taking the low frequency load off the speaker drivers and the amp. If you can adjust the crossover frequency on your receiver, try a low setting like 40 Hz or 60 Hz. Even with full range mains, a subwoofer can help in other ways.

One advantage of using a subwoofer is that it allows you the flexibility to place it where the bass sounds optimal. Typically, the middle location along the wall, where the main speakers normally go, is less than ideal for bass reinforcement.

It also gives you the option of using a parametric equalizer to reduce any room-induced boominess (IMO, the room interactions can absolutely ruin the bass, and even the best subwoofers on the market cannot overcome bad acoustics and placement). Ideally, you want to make the bass as full and even as possible, and a subwoofer gives you a lot of paths to improving the lows.

One disadvantage with subs is that the coherency is not quite as good as with a full range speaker. You can address this if your receiver allows you to change the delay timing for the sub (or enter the distance for each channel). But, IMO the greater placement flexibility and option to EQ the sub produces a fuller and more satisfying sound overall.

But, bass really is one of those things that you need to take your time and work through. The lows are by far the most difficult area to get right with a HT setup, and it takes time, practice, and indeed getting familiarized with some of the technical concepts (such as room acoustics and boundary reinforcement). But, when you're done, the results speak for themselves.

I'll be fooling around with my Rotel for hours I'm sure. Thanks for taking the time to comment...and everyone else too!

[pixelthis]

Untrue. Some mains can be harder to drive than others. Driving those with an entry level receiver can be tough. Setting the speakers to small and letting the sub handle anything below 80Hz can free up the amp's load and give it more headroom.

You shouldn't be driving mains like that with a puny receiver.
NOT to mention that most speakers today are very efficient.
I DROVE a set of top line Axioms (4 ohms) and they played
fine with a 350 dollar ONKYO, and just about anything else I
hooked then up to.:1:

[pixelthis]

In addition to what GM already said, many of us use smaller surround speakers and crossing them over to allow very low frequencies to the sub actually gives more impact.

Why not do both?
YOU CAN SET your mains to large and run bass to the sub also.
THE BASS of a small speaker wont matter much, but every little bit...
I EVEN have a setting on my receiver called extra bass or something like that, sends bass everywhere. But really, why cut off
the response of any speaker?
THE THOUGHT was in the old days that mid range on a smaller speaker would be better if you sent the bass to a sub, but is
that really the case?:1:

[Swish]

You shouldn't be driving mains like that with a puny receiver.
NOT to mention that most speakers today are very efficient.
I DROVE a set of top line Axioms (4 ohms) and they played
fine with a 350 dollar ONKYO, and just about anything else I
hooked then up to.:1:

I have a Rotel RSP 1098 processor and use two Adcom amps, one a 5 channel and the other a 2 channel, both rated at 150 W per channel. I have plenty of power to do the job.

[GMichael]

You shouldn't be driving mains like that with a puny receiver.
NOT to mention that most speakers today are very efficient.
I DROVE a set of top line Axioms (4 ohms) and they played
fine with a 350 dollar ONKYO, and just about anything else I
hooked then up to.:1:
Like it's never been done?:rolleyes5:

[GMichael]

I have a Rotel RSP 1098 processor and use two Adcom amps, one a 5 channel and the other a 2 channel, both rated at 150 W per channel. I have plenty of power to do the job.

Sorry Swish,

Just responding to Pixy's blanket statement that mains should always be set to large. In your case, you should IMO. You have plenty-o-power. Not everyone has that kind of headroom and setting them to small can help a lot.

Pixy, not everyone has the cash for external amps. Some people have receivers because they are on a budget and are driving the speakers they have available. It sure beats driving a sub with a receiver's amp like you suggested last week to someone.

[Woochifer]

But really, why cut off
the response of any speaker?

Because many speakers cannot adequately handle low frequencies. If the tuned port frequency for a ported speaker is set well above the lower bass range, then a lot of bass will cause uncontrolled cone movement, since the back pressure from the port that normally dampens the cone movement unloads at that point. This affects the midrange, and depending on how loud you play, it can damage the driver.


THE THOUGHT was in the old days that mid range on a smaller speaker would be better if you sent the bass to a sub, but is
that really the case?:1:

It still applies.

[Nasir]

Keep the sub!!!!

[Mash]

I would avoid overlapping speaker frequency ranges, because the sub/satellite cancellation effects are hard to predict even if you know how to calculate them. KEEP IT SIMPLE: limit the smaller speakers to frequencies not handled by the sub.

[StevenSurprenant]

Just a thought...

While there is an ideal place in the room for a sub, there can be other choices for other reasons.

I don't play my surround as loudly as some people and in a normal configuration for the sub, such as in front, I don't get the room shaking effect at my normal volumes. Recently, I moved my sub behind the couch and now I can feel the vibrations much better than before even though I have reduced the volume of it because of it's closer proximity. It still sounds like the bass is coming from the front.

While this may not be the ideal setup for the most balanced sound for the entire room, I only care how it sounds from my sitting position. If you play your system at higher levels then this is probably a moot point.

Technically speaking I suppose that there are some flaws in my logic, but I am only reporting what I have experienced. All my speakers have been adjusted for distance and volume.

As for your initial question of whether to use it or not, try it both ways. Only you can make that decision.

[Mash]

We had a lakefront log chalet in NY that was VERY solidly built, and the ceiling was 20 ft high along the center of the room. The Magneplanars were arrayed along that centerline of the room and I had a VD Servo 15 at each end of the couch. The resulting sound was REALLY accurate. The bass was as solid and deep as one could ever appreciate.

So do whatever works. Each room is different so a different solution will be required.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I would avoid overlapping speaker frequency ranges, because the sub/satellite cancellation effects are hard to predict even if you know how to calculate them. KEEP IT SIMPLE: limit the smaller speakers to frequencies not handled by the sub.

This is largely a non issue because each channel has its own bass, and there is not a lot of overlapping of bass between channels. The only time you experience cancellations, is when there are two channels with the same bass signal coming from them, like when you use the phantom mode for the center channel.

[Swish]

Just a thought...

While there is an ideal place in the room for a sub, there can be other choices for other reasons.

I don't play my surround as loudly as some people and in a normal configuration for the sub, such as in front, I don't get the room shaking effect at my normal volumes. Recently, I moved my sub behind the couch and now I can feel the vibrations much better than before even though I have reduced the volume of it because of it's closer proximity. It still sounds like the bass is coming from the front.

While this may not be the ideal setup for the most balanced sound for the entire room, I only care how it sounds from my sitting position. If you play your system at higher levels then this is probably a moot point.

Technically speaking I suppose that there are some flaws in my logic, but I am only reporting what I have experienced. All my speakers have been adjusted for distance and volume.

As for your initial question of whether to use it or not, try it both ways. Only you can make that decision.

....below 80hz, so the placement of your sub shouldn't make any difference.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

....below 80hz, so the placement of your sub shouldn't make any difference.

It does make a big difference, even if it is non-directional. Putting the sub in the right place in a room ensures that you have a smooth frequency response over it operating range. The advice of crawling around the room, and placing the subwoofer where it is the loudest is just plain wrong. You do that, and you have just placed your sub in a mode in the room - one of the worst places you can place it.