What speaker gauge for my setup?

[Robert-The-Rambler]

Right now I am using pedstrian 18 gauge speaker wire with my Behringer EP2500 that outputs 450 watts RMS 20hz to 20khz into 8ohms. My speakers are slightly modified DCM KX12 Series 2 speakers with Pioneer 4ohm car subwoofers replacing the original woofers. Funny the original woofers were also 4ohms even though the nominal impedance rating is marketed as 8ohms. I think it is really closer to 6 but anyway I'm wondering if an investment in 14 gauge or 12 gauge speaker wire is worth it. The left speaker is using only about 3 feet of wire and the right is using about 7 or 8 feet. I can't believe that 18 gauge even works at all for this app but I guess the distance is so short. It sounds good but I would like to know if getting new wire is more than likely going to make a difference or for this distance am I okay? It seems to sound a bit harsh. I had 12 gauge speaker wire attached a long time ago but I don't remember what it sounded like and I must have tossed the wire in the trash because I can't find it.

I checked Wiki but I don't think they mention the wattage factor if there even is one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

[JoeE SP9]

I'm a fan a large gauge wires for speakers. Get rid of the 18 gauge wire ASAP! I would go with 10 or 12 gauge. Speaker cables should be the same length for each speaker. If your speakers sound harsh it's probably not the wire.

[markw]

For a system of such quality, only the finest will do. Go for 12 gauge and sleep well knowing your system has what bring the best out of it.

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I'll go for 12 gauge then ASAP. Thanks.

[GMichael]

For the cost of 12ga, why not?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239#1023901

[Poultrygeist]

These White Lightning Moonshine speaker cables are excellent and cheaper than zip cord.


http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I'm a fan a large gauge wires for speakers. Get rid of the 18 gauge wire ASAP! I would go with 10 or 12 gauge. Speaker cables should be the same length for each speaker. If your speakers sound harsh it's probably not the wire.

My amp is on top of the left speaker. Having equal length speaker cable is just not in the cards here. Horn tweeters are more than likely the harshness when you hit them with so much SPL.

[blackraven]

Bluejeanscable has 10 and 12 guage wire at great priced if you terminate them yourself. I own a pair of the the 10g and it took me all of 20min to terminate them with banana plugs. I run bare ended wire into my speakers though.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/

[hifitommy]

then theres the home depot orange extension cord wire. just cut the AC ends off and use bare wire or add bananas.

cheap and good.

[GMichael]

Bluejeanscable has 10 and 12 guage wire at great priced if you terminate them yourself. I own a pair of the the 10g and it took me all of 20min to terminate them with banana plugs. I run bare ended wire into my speakers though.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/

I did use their 10g to wire my sub. It may (or may not) be overkill, but for the cost, why not? It's a small price to pay for the piece of mind you get. It's when people start paying $5k for wire that makes me wonder.:shocked:

[hifitommy]

even mikey fremer called them STUPID expensive. but when you get to the +100k systems, zip cord and throw away wiring doesnt fit in. its at that level when those differences become clear.

[GMichael]

even mikey fremer called them STUPID expensive. but when you get to the +100k systems, zip cord and throw away wiring doesnt fit in. its at that level when those differences become clear.

True. If I paid over 100k on a system, I sure as sh.t wouldn't put the cheapest wire possible in the mix. But if my system cost 2k, then 5k wire is out.

[JoeE SP9]

My amp is on top of the left speaker. Having equal length speaker cable is just not in the cards here. Horn tweeters are more than likely the harshness when you hit them with so much SPL.

That makes no difference. Both speaker cables should be the same length. Coil the excess on one speaker.

[GMichael]

That makes no difference. Both speaker cables should be the same length. Coil the excess on one speaker.

Coil? Are you sure? Won't that add resistance?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Coil? Are you sure? Won't that add resistance?

This certainly will add inductance into the circuit. The amount added depends on the current as well as the number and size of the loops. If one has to, folding is by far the better solution but still not recommended. Cut to length, wire can be relatively cheap..

[Robert-The-Rambler]

Pulled some 12 gauge wire from my 18" sub downstairs in the largely abandoned man cave that I planned on not using anymore. Well, it makes a big difference. Despite having some superficial damage to the exterior caused by my destructive cat the cable works great and is MUCH MUCH better suited for the high powered class H amp. There are teeth marks everywhere in the plastic but no puncture down to the copper. Sound is more rich in every way. The bass has now extended and the highs don't sound as strained. I think this realy shows that for a high wattage application speaker gauge is very important. Sometimes DUH applies. 18 gauge is for consumer appications in low wattage short distance not for professional use.

[JoeE SP9]

LDB is correct. Coiling will cause increased inductance. Speaker cable lengths should still be the same.

[Luvin Da Blues]

LDB is correct. Coiling will cause increased inductance. Speaker cable lengths should still be the same.

I agree Joe, speaker cables should be the same length but if one only has the option of coiling or cutting to length, I would chose the latter.

Myself, I always have my 2Ch amp (reciever?) centered between the speakers so it's never an issue.

[JoeE SP9]

I have a tubed monoblock sitting behind each speaker connected with 3 foot speaker cables which are about twice as long as I actually need. This also applies to my subs which are driven by bridged SS amps.

[noddin0ff]

Coil? Are you sure? Won't that add resistance?


This certainly will add inductance into the circuit. The amount added depends on the current as well as the number and size of the loops. If one has to, folding is by far the better solution but still not recommended. Cut to length, wire can be relatively cheap..

That's why I keep the 20 extra feet of wire that I have for my right speaker in a tangled mass, shoved behind the cabinet and on top of the power bar.

[Mingus]

My speaker cable is mostly 12 ga. Does the rear speaker require equal length cables.

[Roto767]

The only thing you should be aware of when choosing speaker wire is the length of the run. It doesn't even matter (within reason) if you run different lengths, different brands and so on as long as you use the appropriate gauge for the length of the run. Google 'Roger Russell speaker wire' for a complete faq.

I think people are finally coming around to the fact that speaker wire is speaker wire as long as it is manufactured to industry specifications. Same is true for other audio/video cables.

[hifitommy]

"speaker wire is speaker wire"

nope. if you have a receiver of commercial quality, that may work but not when you get refined products. just as in photography, the better the lens, the more you see.

nobody says that you need $1000 wire with a sansui receiver but with audio research separate components, it may be time to look other than radio shack.

[Smokey]

Nobody says that you need $1000 wire with a sansui receiver but with audio research separate components, it may be time to look other than Radioshack.

Does HomeDepot count since you recommended their orange cord :D

The best route for choosing cables is based on their quality, not how much the system cost :)

[hifitommy]

if i had need for speaker wire at this time, i might try the home depot trick. i DO have an audio research preamp. the fact is that i am well set with kimber 8tc that i paid $50 for.

my point is that some people believe you can greatly improve you sound by just changing the interconnects or speaker wire. big improvements are made before changing the wiring. improved wiring becomes sensible when your system is in the high end sound category. that can be with certain budget priced components or costly items.

i worked my way up in quality over a long time and discovered better wiring incrementally. my most expensive cable is one that i won in the raffle at the audio society meetings.

one of my finds was a kimber PBJ which sounded wonderful between my then rotel 855 CDP and the preamp. another was an AT litz wire between the crossover and preamp when i was using a dahlquist electronic xover while biamping between my rogers LS3/5As and infinity monitor JRs i used as subs.

i had no need for that level of wire when i had my sherwood s8900a receiver.

[JoeE SP9]

The only thing you should be aware of when choosing speaker wire is the length of the run. It doesn't even matter (within reason) if you run different lengths, different brands and so on as long as you use the appropriate gauge for the length of the run. Google 'Roger Russell speaker wire' for a complete faq.

I think people are finally coming around to the fact that speaker wire is speaker wire as long as it is manufactured to industry specifications. Same is true for other audio/video cables.

First, welcome to AR.

There are no industry specifications for any kind of wire speaker or otherwise.

Most of the posters here are familiar with Roger Russell's web site. Most of the same posters don't agree with his methodology, results or conclusions.

People usually eventually come around to the idea that different speaker cables and interconnects sound different. Eventually is the catch word for anyone who steadily improves their system. After a certain point the urge to try different wires and cables raises it's head. When that happens, and it will for most, you are doomed!!!!!

[MartinJones]

I hadnīt need for that level of wire when i had my sherwood s8900a receiver. :nono:

[JoeE SP9]

With most receiver based systems you can't hear wire and cable differences.

[pixelthis]

With most receiver based systems you can't hear wire and cable differences.

THIS is true, basically, but you still need as large a guage as you can stand, 12g is a good choice.
ITS slight, but a smaller gauge has more resistance, which will
make your amp work harder.
WHICH is also why the gauge needs to match on all channels.
Excepting ones with external amps. My left/right has a thick monster
speaker cable set, don't know the gauge. THE surrounds are
all powered by the receiver, and all the same gauge.:1:

[JoeE SP9]

I agree. With speaker cables larger is usually better. I use three foot lengths of DH Labs Q-10 Signature which is 10g.

[Luvin Da Blues]

[QUOTE=pixelthis;363241]....... but a smaller gauge has more resistance, ........WHICH is also why the gauge needs to match on all channels.
Excepting ones with external amps. My left/right has a thick.........{QUOTE]

I think your logic has a flaw. Generally the rear channels have longer runs so they would require larger (less resistance) wire to equal the resistance of the shorter front channels.

What does having a seperate amp have to do with anything?

[Glen B]

Right now I am using pedstrian 18 gauge speaker wire with my Behringer EP2500 that outputs 450 watts RMS 20hz to 20khz into 8ohms. My speakers are slightly modified DCM KX12 Series 2 speakers with Pioneer 4ohm car subwoofers replacing the original woofers. Funny the original woofers were also 4ohms even though the nominal impedance rating is marketed as 8ohms. I think it is really closer to 6 but anyway I'm wondering if an investment in 14 gauge or 12 gauge speaker wire is worth it. The left speaker is using only about 3 feet of wire and the right is using about 7 or 8 feet. I can't believe that 18 gauge even works at all for this app but I guess the distance is so short. It sounds good but I would like to know if getting new wire is more than likely going to make a difference or for this distance am I okay? It seems to sound a bit harsh. I had 12 gauge speaker wire attached a long time ago but I don't remember what it sounded like and I must have tossed the wire in the trash because I can't find it.

I checked Wiki but I don't think they mention the wattage factor if there even is one.


I will differ somewhat with most opinions here and suggest that for your short distances, 16 gauge wire would not be inappropriate, especially with a non-revealing system. The resistance of 8 feet of 16 gauge wire is approximately 0.03 ohm, well below what it would take to cause frequency response problems in the fussiest of high end speakers. That said, wire is so cheap, it does not hurt to use larger gauge wire, like 14 or 12 gauge. There are those who may disagree, and that's their prerogative. I've been in this hobby more than four decades, 11 of them in the past in the DJ/sound reinforcement business, so I've been "around the block" more than a few times. You also mentioned system harshness. Larger wires will not solve that problem. Try better quality speakers and better source equipment.

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I will differ somewhat with most opinions here and suggest that for your short distances, 16 gauge wire would not be inappropriate, especially with a non-revealing system. The resistance of 8 feet of 16 gauge wire is approximately 0.03 ohm, well below what it would take to cause frequency response problems in the fussiest of high end speakers. That said, wire is so cheap, it does not hurt to use larger gauge wire, like 14 or 12 gauge. There are those who may disagree, and that's their prerogative. I've been in this hobby more than four decades, 11 of them in the past in the DJ/sound reinforcement business, so I've been "around the block" more than a few times. You also mentioned system harshness. Larger wires will not solve that problem. Try better quality speakers and better source equipment.

The problem is sometimes a simple one. Too much SPL from too short a distance. Anyhow no budget for upgrades. Downgrades are more likely. Thanks.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=pixelthis;363241]....... but a smaller gauge has more resistance, ........WHICH is also why the gauge needs to match on all channels.
Excepting ones with external amps. My left/right has a thick.........{QUOTE]

I think your logic has a flaw. Generally the rear channels have longer runs so they would require larger (less resistance) wire to equal the resistance of the shorter front channels.

What does having a seperate amp have to do with anything?

THE SEPERATE AMP is like a separate system, so the speaker
wires have nothing to do with the receiver.
A RECEIVER , unless its expensive, tends to have one power supply, which distributes power to all channels. ALSO, and again
its slight, but cables from one device need to match in resistance and gauge.
IN EXTREME cases(20 gauge on one, 12 on the other) there can be a volume difference, one amp can run hotter than another, etc.
BASICALLY its just sloppy.
BUT BACK to the seperate amp, this is what a lot who can't afford a seperate audio system do, run their left/right fronts with
an outboard amp of much better quality than a receiver.
ITS CALLED an "amp" because it pumps out current, or AMPS.
And an outboard amp with a huge transformer the size of a cats head will power the speakers you use for audio a lot better.
AND AUDIO IS MORE IMPORTANT, the receivers puny amps work just fine on surround material, but when I GO TWO CHANNEL, my first love, its like a seperate system.
A GOOD COMPROMISE a lot of audiophiles do when they can't afford(or have room for) dedicated audio and HT systems,
which have different mission statements and parameters.
AS FOR THE SURROUND gauge, sure 12 is better than 16,
but for practical purposes it won't matter, especially when you
mostly watch TV, etc.:1:

[E-Stat]

Generally the rear channels have longer runs so they would require larger (less resistance) wire to equal the resistance of the shorter front channels.
For simpler routing of the cable around door frames, fireplace, etc., I use 24 gauge (gasp!) to the rears. Any level difference, however, can easily be adjusted by the processor. As it turns out, I typically attenuate the rears a couple dB anyway.

rw

[Luvin Da Blues]

.....but cables from one device need to match in resistance and gauge.
............:

So, if your using the same guage wire but the lengths are different how do you match the resistance of the cables??????

[Dawnrazor]

For simpler routing of the cable around door frames, fireplace, etc., I use 24 gauge (gasp!) to the rears. Any level difference, however, can easily be adjusted by the processor. As it turns out, I typically attenuate the rears a couple dB anyway.

rw

Hah. I use 28g for the mains. The amps are rated 400w into the 4 ohm speakers.

If you have anykind of short runs you should try some thin magwire say 24g. I would do that with the KXs. Those speakers are over 100db (106 I think) and it doesnt take any power to get them going.

If the woofers were replaced odds are they are not the same sensitivity and maybe that is causing an imbalance that makes the highs more pronounced.

IMHO adding some 12g wire will just smear the bass and might make it sound like more bass but I bet you it is just smeared.

Anyhow I run speakers that are in the low 80s for sensitivity with the thin stuff and plenty of power with no issues.

Magwire is $6 at ratshack.

[JoeE SP9]

Please explain how and why 12g wire causes smearing?

[Dawnrazor]

Please explain how and why 12g wire causes smearing?

Relative to thin magwire the bass sounds smeared and slow on thick wire.

My test was pretty simple. I made a simple cable of 28g wire and listened. Then I substituted a same length strand of 14g THHN wire (to compare solid to solid wire) and listened. The bass was slow and undefined compared to the cable made with all thin wire.

Since then I have run thin and had several friends try it. Increase in bass resolution is something that is always mentioned. As is clarity and imaging improvement. Many have replaced expensive cabling with a $6 investment.

Hey its $6 to test for your self. You could start with several strands if you are worried.

And gauge is just one component of speaker cables. In my "test" above I couldnt rule out dielectric. But given other experiences and other peoples reactions I think the gauge has more to do with bass resolution than dielectric.

Also AFAIK the speaker impedance will have an affect on the results with thin wire. On my maggies the impedance is much flatter compared to other speakers, but IMHO it is worth a try to buy some ratshack magwire and see for your self. You could always build a cable with multiple strands if you desire.

Also I got the idea from Allen Wrights cable cook book. He has a chart of frequencies and their speed moving through copper. The bass was moving slower and he attributed it to the thickness of the wire. And the best expression of his ideas are cables made of thin wide foils, but I found that the theory tends to work with normal round wire too.

[pixelthis]

So, if your using the same guage wire but the lengths are different how do you match the resistance of the cables??????

ALL YOU HAVE to do is pay attention to the guage.
IN EXTREME cases (one foot on one side, twenty on the other)
you can have a resistance difference, but it wont matter much if you
use the same guage.
But if the short one is 12g and the long one is 16 or 20, you could get a difference.
THE RESISTANCE difference between one ft and twenty ft
wires of the same guage are slight, so use the same guage
for every channel, excepting channels with outboard amps.
WHAT guage you use on those will only matter in relation to other cables connected to the same amp.:1:

[hifitommy]

"ALL YOU HAVE to do is pay attention to the gauge"

its not only the gauge that affects sound. one can get superior sound from inexpensive aftermarket wire like audioquest type 4.

i replaced 12 gauge monster twinlead with type 4 and at first thought i was getting less bass. after about a week i realized the bass was going just as deep or deeper but the definition was notably better due to less bass overhang. it was definitely less muddy and more detailed.

the aq4 is 15ga and litz in construction. perhaps with a $100 receiver one wouldnt notice a difference but with a $500 one with good speakers, the difference would be easy to discern.

[pixelthis]

"ALL YOU HAVE to do is pay attention to the gauge"

its not only the gauge that affects sound. one can get superior sound from inexpensive aftermarket wire like audioquest type 4.

i replaced 12 gauge monster twinlead with type 4 and at first thought i was getting less bass. after about a week i realized the bass was going just as deep or deeper but the definition was notably better due to less bass overhang. it was definitely less muddy and more detailed.

the aq4 is 15ga and litz in construction. perhaps with a $100 receiver one wouldnt notice a difference but with a $500 one with good speakers, the difference would be easy to discern.


In your imagination, maybe.
I have a 1,000 receiver, with a 125wpc amp hooked to left/right,
run that at whatever guage the set of 200$ Monsters I bought
from a friend are, they are pretty thick.
BUT this has been double blinded to death, it takes a very sensitive ear to even tell major diffs in cable.
BUT that is not what I WAS TALKING about, just stating that
with speaker wire there is usually very little that matters as far as resistance is concerned. ONLY with very tiny cable will
a receiver run hot. Still good to have a large guage, tho.:1:

[pixelthis]

BTW, while most perfectionists prefer 12g, myself included,
16g is not bad, witness the cable on my pretty large right rear.
At least if I REMEMBER CORRECTLY ITS 16G.:1:

[hifitommy]

you are one of the lucky few who can't hear the difference in wire. but then youre still mired in receiverville. that constitutes the front end even if there is an amp following the receiver.

you pronounce that there is no difference and there are very many others, whom i assure you are NOT imagining things that do hear those differences.

making ignorant statements identifies you as such but many times you dont seem to be. and then you put your foot in your mouth.

when you dont hear the difference, its much better to state THAT rather than what you do state.

as your system evolves away from receivers, you will be listening through a cleaner window and hear much more.

[audio amateur]

Relative to thin magwire the bass sounds smeared and slow on thick wire.

My test was pretty simple. I made a simple cable of 28g wire and listened. Then I substituted a same length strand of 14g THHN wire (to compare solid to solid wire) and listened. The bass was slow and undefined compared to the cable made with all thin wire.

......

Also I got the idea from Allen Wrights cable cook book. He has a chart of frequencies and their speed moving through copper. The bass was moving slower and he attributed it to the thickness of the wire. And the best expression of his ideas are cables made of thin wide foils, but I found that the theory tends to work with normal round wire too.

Excuse me for saying it, but that sounds like a load of baloney.

[JohnMichael]

Relative to thin magwire the bass sounds smeared and slow on thick wire.

My test was pretty simple. I made a simple cable of 28g wire and listened. Then I substituted a same length strand of 14g THHN wire (to compare solid to solid wire) and listened. The bass was slow and undefined compared to the cable made with all thin wire.

Since then I have run thin and had several friends try it. Increase in bass resolution is something that is always mentioned. As is clarity and imaging improvement. Many have replaced expensive cabling with a $6 investment.

Hey its $6 to test for your self. You could start with several strands if you are worried.

And gauge is just one component of speaker cables. In my "test" above I couldnt rule out dielectric. But given other experiences and other peoples reactions I think the gauge has more to do with bass resolution than dielectric.

Also AFAIK the speaker impedance will have an affect on the results with thin wire. On my maggies the impedance is much flatter compared to other speakers, but IMHO it is worth a try to buy some ratshack magwire and see for your self. You could always build a cable with multiple strands if you desire.

Also I got the idea from Allen Wrights cable cook book. He has a chart of frequencies and their speed moving through copper. The bass was moving slower and he attributed it to the thickness of the wire. And the best expression of his ideas are cables made of thin wide foils, but I found that the theory tends to work with normal round wire too.


I think you should try AntiCables. They are a 12 gauge solid core cables. They have minimal insulation. They do not have strand interaction and heavy insulation the Monster's and others like them have. Very nice cables.

[bfalls]

LDB is correct. Coiling will cause increased inductance. Speaker cable lengths should still be the same.

What about cable designs which are twisted. Don't the twists counteract or cancel the build up of EMI. So looping the cables should have little or no effect.

I have Audioquests with their Spread Spectrum Technology. They use multiple wires of different guages, in two counter-twist layers. The different guage wires are supposed to better replicate the different frequencies within the audio spectrum. Twisting is also supposed to help reject RFI. It should also reduce or eliminate any crosstalk between conductors.

I can understand were solid or stranded non-twisted wires could cause additional inductance when laid parallel or in loops. Possibly increase capacitance, since a capacitor is made by layering alternate layers of insulation and conductor.

Logic tells me cables made in this fashion would have more control over their parameters than zip cords or other similar manufactured cables. Anyone have documented support, or info to debunk the theory?

[Poultrygeist]

Last year at Hornfest in Leesville, SC the speaker cable of choice for the $35,000 GM70 was the While Lightning Moonshines. Do y'all think we might have needed something better if the amp had cost $100,000?

[hifitommy]

exACTly poultry! low to mid fi deserves low to mid fi cabling. thousand dollar cable will have little effect on the sound in those instances.

[E-Stat]

Excuse me for saying it, but that sounds like a load of baloney.
It is an entirely valid test for something that - no one would ever do. Even the cheapest 14 gauge wire intended for speaker use contains about two dozen conductors.

Maybe he would like to compare his wire to Nordost Odin and see if the theory holds in practice.

rw

[manlystanley]

The thicker the wire (e.g. smaller the gauge) the less resistance it has--which is good. In other words, the lower resistance of the wire, the less it will affect the current passing though it. You want the speaker to receive all the power that the amp sends--without any distortion.

From what I've read, thinner wire mostly effects the lower frequencies.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Baniebs]

biggest gauge possible!