recommendations for CD player

[Raj J]

hello there! trust all is well & all are enjoying their music very much!

finally managed to save up a bit, would like to know your expert opinions on what CD player I should consider... or transport & DAC separates.
I would prefer a vacuum tube CD player; never really liked the solid states, other than a Wadia or Meridian, but at the time didn't have a budget to afford either, but now I do!

My budget is $6000 (6 grand in AUS$) Australian dollars.
I was looking at the following as my preferred list:
1. Conrad Johnson (yet to launch, new model on the way...)
2. Cary CD 300t
3. Audio Research
4. MacIntosh
5. Cayin CD 17T
6. BAT
7. Wadia or Meridian

now onto You - any suggestions out there? would be appreciative if you could tell me specifics based on YOUR experience and not something read off a magazine please... I can do that myself!

there are too many people here that think they know it all, when they haven't even heard the dam thing themselves!

I am looking for that respectable person who has had first hand experience with a very good CD player, one that has tubes, and one that they would recomment highly. The list I had mentioned above I have listened to them all, and had all of them in my very own c-j maggie setup back in my home country, so therefore I know their sonic character. I eventually settled for a glorious c-j DV2B cd player, which c-j no longer makes, and had to sell it off when I moved over to melbourne. this is now starting from scratch, and the cd player I am currently using is a Cayin CD50T, wonderful player for the money. Obviously does not compete in the same league as the rest of my electronics: c-j ACT2 preamp, c-j MV60se power amp, and Quad ESL 2905 electrostats.

would be interested to hear your advice...
many thanks and have a good all! cheers, Raj J

[Mr Peabody]

It may be difficult to find but T+A makes and incredible tube CDP, it may be out of your budget at $8k USD, not sure how the money translates. I am really impressed by there solid state players as well.

I have an entry level 1.1x Audio Note tube DAC that I feel is outstanding, I used, and preferred, it in place of a former Krell 280cd. The higher end AN players or DAC's I would imagine to be just as excellent in their range. I would really recommend a listen as their presentation was more natural than any digital I've heard. I prefer my current T+A over the AN, a bit more superior in the upper and lower extremes with more detail.

I had an older CJ DAC but have not heard any of their newer digital.

Again, I've only heard the solid state but a Musical Fidelity CDP really had some great synergy with my CJ gear. A friend brought his over to hook up. We were impressed by the result.

For what it's worth, a CJ dealer whom I highly respect says good things about Shanling CD players. He is a great distance so I have not heard the tube players yet.

In my humble opinion I do not feel Audio Research and CJ would mix at all, two different "house sounds". People seem to be in one camp or the other with these two brands.

I try to match sources to my CJ gear that embrace the CJ pace and musicality. Hope you keep us posted on units you try and ultimately what you end up with.

[Feanor]

hello there! trust all is well & all are enjoying their music very much!

finally managed to save up a bit, would like to know your expert opinions on what CD player I should consider... or transport & DAC separates.
I would prefer a vacuum tube CD player; never really liked the solid states, other than a Wadia or Meridian, but at the time didn't have a budget to afford either, but now I do!

My budget is $6000 (6 grand in AUS$) Australian dollars.
I was looking at the following as my preferred list:
1. Conrad Johnson (yet to launch, new model on the way...)
2. Cary CD 300t
3. Audio Research
4. MacIntosh
5. Cayin CD 17T
6. BAT
7. Wadia or Meridian

now onto You - any suggestions out there? would be appreciative if you could tell me specifics based on YOUR experience and not something read off a magazine please... I can do that myself!

there are too many people here that think they know it all, when they haven't even heard the dam (sic) thing themselves!

I am looking for that respectable person who has had first hand experience with a very good CD player, one that has tubes, and one that they would recomment highly. The list I had mentioned above I have listened to them all, and had all of them in my very own c-j maggie setup back in my home country, so therefore I know their sonic character. I eventually settled for a glorious c-j DV2B cd player, which c-j no longer makes, and had to sell it off when I moved over to melbourne. this is now starting from scratch, and the cd player I am currently using is a Cayin CD50T, wonderful player for the money. Obviously does not compete in the same league as the rest of my electronics: c-j ACT2 preamp, c-j MV60se power amp, and Quad ESL 2905 electrostats.

would be interested to hear your advice...
many thanks and have a good all! cheers, Raj J
Well you don't you tell me to just fnck off & die, eh, Raj.

Or are you just showing off in front of us "little people". I think you'll find not many people in this forum can afford a $6000 CDP, so I suggest you ask, (if you haven't already) ,over at Audio Asylum where there are a good many well-heeled "inmates" who share your snotty attitude.

Nevertheless I'll venture that my list of $6k players would include the Ayre C-5xe<SUP>MP</SUP>. FWIW it got an 'A+' rating in the recent Stereophile-- but of course you know this. I'll also venture -- based on personal experience -- that I wouldn't be without SACD playback.

[Raj J]

Thanks Peabody! great insight, I will certainly look into the names you mentioned and try to have a listen as well.

Feanor - I was not referring to be snotty- Hell no!
terribly sorry if I did mate; sometimes I do make statements that do sound snotty. I don't know where it comes from... but hey, if you have come across my other posts I really enjoy my music and like for those to enjoy out there as well.

I really couldn't care less how they enjoy their music whether on a 100 grand system or $10 tin kettle unit from radio shack, as long as they're enjoying their music.

It took me quite a long time to save up again, and I personally believe 6 grand should get me something decent... so I would like to know what's out there before I start spending...
Cheers!
RJ
thanks for noting that the player should also include SACD format, actually I didn't think of that!

[blackraven]

My vote would be for this Marantz SA-7S1 SACD player. I have always liked the sound of the higher end Marantz players. Even their lower end players are good. They tend to have that warmer, analog, almost tube like typical marantz sound.

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ReferenceSeries&SubCatId=&ProductId=SA7S1

[Raj J]

thanks for your message Blackraven!

yes, I do agree about the Marantz; however I preferred their vintage tube amps, not so much their cd players...

I remember having a marantz cd63se and a few other top line one at the time used during the late 80's; they were good, but then when I tried Arcam, NAD, Musical Fidelity, Rega, & Copland - too me these were better in overall soundstage, especially the Arcam which I had for quite sometime before starting to try out the highend from c-j, mac, audio research, cary etc... I heard in the TAS review for May I think it was, editors choice awards - the marantz 800 something series was a very good recommendation. BUT I have not heard it myself, so I wouldn't know.

I was also wondering whether to go for separates - DAC & transport; I have heard the wonderful Weiss DAC it is outstanding! and it was driven with all conrad johnson gear. the transport was however - no transport! music files were coming out from a mac pc! I am not into the pc stuff yet, but now I know why the guy had all this connected to a Weiss DAC ...

Any suggestions much appreciated?
thanks, RJ

[TheHills44060]

I haven't auditioned any CD players in a while but an acquaintance has the McIntosh MCD-500 and wow I want one. Easy to use and never did I feel like it was too solid-statey sounding. Fits in your budget as well. If my current transport/dac ever crapped out this is what I would purchase.

[E-Stat]

... would like to know your expert opinions on what CD player I should consider... or transport & DAC separates.
If you have a large SACD library, then you pretty much are forced to buy a combo player. If, on the other hand, most of your content is Redbook CD, then I would suggest separates. I purchased what will be my last CD player ten years ago. Server based sources are so much more flexible and there are interfaces which can provide equivalent performance to traditional transports. Clearly, that is the way the market is evolving. My vintage system uses Manley DAC (with a tube analog output stage) driven by a Squeezebox Touch fed by an i7-860 server. While that is not exactly the quality you seek, the flexibility has convinced me that when I replace the GamuT player upstairs, I will go a similar server based route.


I would prefer a vacuum tube CD player; never really liked the solid states, other than a Wadia or Meridian, but at the time didn't have a budget to afford either, but now I do!
Ever hear a Meitner product? I've heard several EMM Labs products at Sea Cliff ranging from the basic player to the six channel multichannel separates to the superlative XDS1 player. While the XDS1 runs a cool $25k, Ed Meitner has a new company with his debut product being a $7000 DAC. I'm thinking that will be a great contender at the price point.

rw

[E-Stat]

In my humble opinion I do not feel Audio Research and CJ would mix at all, two different "house sounds". People seem to be in one camp or the other with these two brands.
While I'm sure that's true for some folks, I feel quite the opposite. Earlier VTL gear like my MB-450 monoblocks tends to be more in the warm C-J camp. I find great system synergy using an Audio Research preamp with vinyl or going direct to a solid state GamuT CDP, both of which tend towards a leaner sound. I find those combinations work quite well together with the result failing in between the extremes. Like peanut butter and chocolate. :)

rw

[frenchmon]

thanks for your message Blackraven!

yes, I do agree about the Marantz; however I preferred their vintage tube amps, not so much their cd players...

I remember having a marantz cd63se and a few other top line one at the time used during the late 80's; they were good, but then when I tried Arcam, NAD, Musical Fidelity, Rega, & Copland - too me these were better in overall soundstage, especially the Arcam which I had for quite sometime before starting to try out the highend from c-j, mac, audio research, cary etc... I heard in the TAS review for May I think it was, editors choice awards - the marantz 800 something series was a very good recommendation. BUT I have not heard it myself, so I wouldn't know.

I was also wondering whether to go for separates - DAC & transport; I have heard the wonderful Weiss DAC it is outstanding! and it was driven with all conrad johnson gear. the transport was however - no transport! music files were coming out from a mac pc! I am not into the pc stuff yet, but now I know why the guy had all this connected to a Weiss DAC ...

Any suggestions much appreciated?
thanks, RJ

I think you are mistaken sir....the Marantz Reference is totally different from a cd63se which has never been top of the line. ...I think you need to take your own advice. I assure you a Arcam, NAD, Musical Fidelity, Rega, & Copland will be out classed in the Red Book and SACD department.

This is top of the line Marantz SA-7S1 at $6000 and nothing like the $300marantz cd63se you are talking about.You asked for $6000 and tube, well I betcha in your system it will be tube like while being SS....try stepping into some class for a while instead of the same old status quo.

http://us.marantz.com/assets/images/products/SA-7S1/L_SA-7S1.png

[blackraven]

I agree with the Frenchmon, the Marantz SACD player that I mentioned is an audiophile player and competes with the big boys. It deserves a listen if you have a dealer nearby that has one.

[Raj J]

I think you are mistaken sir....the Marantz Reference is totally different from a cd63se which has never been top of the line. ...I think you need to take your own advice. I assure you a Arcam, NAD, Musical Fidelity, Rega, & Copland will be out classed in the Red Book and SACD department.

This is top of the line Marantz SA-7S1 at $6000 and nothing like the $300marantz cd63se you are talking about.You asked for $6000 and tube, well I betcha in your system it will be tube like while being SS....try stepping into some class for a while instead of the same old status quo.

http://us.marantz.com/assets/images/products/SA-7S1/L_SA-7S1.png

hey Frenchmon,

many thanks for your advice! i never heard of this marantz unit? SA-7s1, never even seen it before! the top of the line marantz i ever went to was a cd17 something, very famous at the time, thereafter i forgot about marantz all together.

so in summary: if i was to spend $6 grand, you're saying that this marantz is it?

others have recommended the mac...cdp
please confirm.
cheers, RJ

[Raj J]

If you have a large SACD library, then you pretty much are forced to buy a combo player. If, on the other hand, most of your content is Redbook CD, then I would suggest separates. I purchased what will be my last CD player ten years ago. Server based sources are so much more flexible and there are interfaces which can provide equivalent performance to traditional transports. Clearly, that is the way the market is evolving. My vintage system uses Manley DAC (with a tube analog output stage) driven by a Squeezebox Touch fed by an i7-860 server. While that is not exactly the quality you seek, the flexibility has convinced me that when I replace the GamuT player upstairs, I will go a similar server based route.


Ever hear a Meitner product? I've heard several EMM Labs products at Sea Cliff ranging from the basic player to the six channel multichannel separates to the superlative XDS1 player. While the XDS1 runs a cool $25k, Ed Meitner has a new company with his debut product being a $7000 DAC. I'm thinking that will be a great contender at the price point.

rw

hey rw (e-stat) i certainly agree. in fact as i was saying the demo system with Quad, c-j and nordost, analog source was a simple TT from sound ref, and the digital system was from a mac book hooked up to a Weiss DAC, sound was stunning.

As you mentioned, i only have about 15 SACD's the rest of thousands are normal versions, hence i have too many to be using pc's and music servers, what do i do with all my cd's?

at the end of the day, i want to just purchase a dam good cdp preferably with tubes on the output stage and to keep this cdp for sometime, at least 10 years or so.

now, i'm all confused! some are saying mac, music servers, marantz and goodness knows what else,
what are your suggestions ranked from 1-3 as your top 3 for $6 grand, that might make things easier.

also, i know yuo have the VTL 450 monoblocks, infact my very first monoblocks were manley 350 reference series, great sound driving my maggies 3.5/r - therefore i would say we have a similar preference in sound, hence let me know your advice for this cdp i am looking out for.

appreciate all your responses, thanks!
RJ

[frenchmon]

hey Frenchmon,

many thanks for your advice! i never heard of this marantz unit? SA-7s1, never even seen it before! the top of the line marantz i ever went to was a cd17 something, very famous at the time, thereafter i forgot about marantz all together.

so in summary: if i was to spend $6 grand, you're saying that this marantz is it?

others have recommended the mac...cdp
please confirm.
cheers, RJ

The Marantz player does SACD as well as Red Book in stunning fashion. But of course system matching is all important. Its not tubes, but is based on the Marantz legendary tube performance of old with a warm tube sound. Those who really don't like a warm tube sound don't like the SA-7s1 but those who do, love it. the only known problem is a new SA-7s1 out of the box takes a while to break in. Once broken in its an outstanding player. Some have discarded the player not knowing the break in time, while thinking the player was over rated, only to find out from others of the break in time.

[blackraven]

The Marantz would be my number one player if I had $6K to burn. Frenchmon is right on all counts about the Marantz unit. Good luck and happy hunting!

[Raj J]

Ok thanks,
I guess now I need to go and look for a Marantz dealer to audtion this thing. I don't think there is anyone here in Melbourne... oh great!

Melbourne is very limited when it comes to highend audio, you would mostly c-j, Quad, mac, cary, rotel audio research, vtl, manley, jas, image, vandersteen, sunos faber, maggies etc...

very rarely do you find the outstanding stuff like, Lamm, audio note, Wilson, ayon etc... hence finding someone who carries Marantz highend is going to be like a walk in the desert without water!

I can bet my left nut, that the so called highend "Marantz dealer" is not even located in Melbourne and would probably be in sydney, hence I would have to fly over there just to audition it!

Apart from this Marantz - what's the next BEST thing you recommend?

appreciate your suggestions.
cheers, RJ

[Mr Peabody]

The PS Audio separate transport & DAC are about $6k, it had a nice warm presentation. I personally liked the T+A better but apparently the PSA is selling pretty well. I would imagine the Mac being a decent match with your system. My only hesitation I've heard some Mac gear that sounded to me terribly rolled off and not have the resolution you should hear for that type of money. It may very well be worth the wait to hear the new CJ. My personal taste Marantz would not be my first choice and probably far down my list, not that it's bad, just not my taste, same as the PSA or Mac. You mentioned BAT earlier, although I haven't heard their CDP's I'd certainly give them a listen.

Just curious Raj if you've noticed we have the same amp, your pre is a good step above mine though. I love CJ gear, it has a very good pace and musicality to it. I like to keep with that but keep as well an extended high end a good bass response. I am not a Maggie fan but do like electrostats, especially with good tube gear. Maggies I don't find versatile enough for me. I did use Dynaudio speakers with my CJ but currently running a more efficient Zu Audio. The MV60's drove the Dyn's well enough I was just looking for a different presentation.

[frenchmon]

Hi RJ...what type of music do you listen to?

[Raj J]

The PS Audio separate transport & DAC are about $6k, it had a nice warm presentation. I personally liked the T+A better but apparently the PSA is selling pretty well. I would imagine the Mac being a decent match with your system. My only hesitation I've heard some Mac gear that sounded to me terribly rolled off and not have the resolution you should hear for that type of money. It may very well be worth the wait to hear the new CJ. My personal taste Marantz would not be my first choice and probably far down my list, not that it's bad, just not my taste, same as the PSA or Mac. You mentioned BAT earlier, although I haven't heard their CDP's I'd certainly give them a listen.

Just curious Raj if you've noticed we have the same amp, your pre is a good step above mine though. I love CJ gear, it has a very good pace and musicality to it. I like to keep with that but keep as well an extended high end a good bass response. I am not a Maggie fan but do like electrostats, especially with good tube gear. Maggies I don't find versatile enough for me. I did use Dynaudio speakers with my CJ but currently running a more efficient Zu Audio. The MV60's drove the Dyn's well enough I was just looking for a different presentation.

Hello Mr. Peabody, thanks for your message.

Yes! we do have the same amps - however I have slightly modified my MV60SE; I have replaced the 6550c tubes with KT120 tubes from TungSol - the presentation is remarkable! partnered with the ACT2 the live impact and realism is easily achieved without any strain whatsoever off the Quad ESL 2905's. I using very nuetral cables and interconnects from DHLabs Silver Sonic Air Matrix and Q10's. I guess another factor contributing to this overall live presentation is that I've got about $5000 grand worth of just power conditioning systems that are placed right after the AC out let and before the system. I'm using the THOR PS10 power conditioner and another unit called the Quantum Qx4 cube that was quite expensive. But welll worth the spend.

The Qx4 is from Nordost, and highly recommended, I didn't know that it would add such a sonic presentation on a far margin better than what I was already experiencing. You should try it out, you'll be amazed! Especially with prestine tube gear like c-j amps, the Qx4 or Qx2 (smaller version of the 4) simply takes the entire presentation/soundstage to a whole new level.

There are low level details that I didn't hear before, the bass is far more solid on the KT120 tubes, the highs and mids are smooth as, and the soundsatge is glorious, it's like you're right there front row or on the stage itself!

The sound I'm getting is absolutely top notch, I have never had this experience before from any of my previous systems, hence I am very reluctant to change...

The only problem or plausible flaw that I could pinpoint if one was to needle prick - is that the digital source is not upto the same standards as the rest of the gear. It's just a simple vacuum Tube CD player from Cayin, that seems to match very well in this system, and performs to it's best, obviously because it is getting the best. I did have c-j's older Cd player with tubes called the dv2b, that is no longer made. What I 'm after is another dv2b or separate tarnsport dac equivalent. C-j don't know when they're hoping to put this out, but someday they will, and I know for a fact when it gets to Australia it's going to be somewhere around 6 grand... Hence I thought I'd just start shopping around now as a bench mark so that I don't make that same mistake I did 10 years ago...

I really burnt my fingers with that dv2b, but absolutely loved it sound. To me, that was the best CD player I ever owned.

Cheers and nice to talk to you Peabody.
RJ

[Raj J]

Hi RJ...what type of music do you listen to?

Hey Frenchmon; type of music I really listen to well & enjoy,
I have all the albums of Diana Krall and Casandra Wilson, all the albums of Tiereny Sutton, all the albums of Liz Wright, Melody Gardot, Madeline Peroux, Patrica Barber - every one of them!

the above I listen to mostly which is female jazz vocals.

then I have extensive albums from the following:
George Benson (whom I have met in person!)
Larry Carlton & Lee Ritnouer
Rusell Malone
Kenny Burrel
Bob James Fourplay (every album) have also auditioned them live!

the other many classic peices I have are from the following:
Ella Fitzgerald
Nina Simone
Dinah Washington
Sarah Vaughn
Peggy Lee
Rene Marie

Other music I also listen to extensively are from:
Chris Boti
Miles Davis
Chet Baker
Oscar Peterson
Ray Brown trio
Stan Getz
Lester Young
Sonny Rollins
Duke Elington
Ray Charles
Ahmad Jamal
Bill Charlap
Jacky Terrason
Carla Cook
Erin Bode
DinaDeRose
Jessica Williams
Casandra Mckinelly
Karin Allison

I also have others such as Sting, Eagles, Dire Straits, and some Carlos Santana, Josh Groban, Michael Buble... which the wifey mostly would listen to but also sounds quite awesome through the Quads.

That's about it, my last album was a special edition from Roberta Flack called "first take" and Stings special edition of his great hits performed with the london symphony - awesome music!

cheers, RJ

[Poultrygeist]

If I had that kind of money to throw around I'd still spring for a great DAC combined with a solid transport.

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon, would the Electrocompanient be an option for Raj?

The thing is $6k opens a large field of good players. I only heard Esoteric once but the system it was in I really couldn't tell if it warranted it's price tag. Most retail for Esoteric is over $6k but I recently have seen some universal players at Spearitsound near that price USD.

[Mr Peabody]

Raj, I converted my MV60's to mono, I have the EL34 version. I understand the SE has a bit more slam and control but have been told the trade off is a bit of midrange magic. I have questioned my CJ connection about other CJ amps, they admit the LP's would remove even more veiling but always say something to the effect "it wouldn't be as musical as the MV60". This leads me to sort of believe the MV60 is a special amp in their line up. Why would they even hint to discourage a possible future sale, that's why I trust them so much, that and the fact they've always been first class dealing with me.

I had a solid state CJ DAC, I think the PV1. It was very good for it's age, displaying an excellent sound stage. It was not neutral though, it had a very warm dark character to it. It would probably be very nice for your type of music but you could definitely hear it's softening of things on Rock or more energetic music styles. You do have me wondering though, now that I have other speakers I need to put the Audio Note DAC back on the system to see what happens. I typically liked solid state sources through my CJ gear for a certain balance. Only certain solid state gear though, I had a Krell CDP which didn't seem to have the synergy I was looking for.

At the end of the day though you should buy the brands available to you that would allow for a return if you weren't happy with it's result.

[frenchmon]

Hey Frenchmon; type of music I really listen to well & enjoy,
I have all the albums of Diana Krall and Casandra Wilson, all the albums of Tiereny Sutton, all the albums of Liz Wright, Melody Gardot, Madeline Peroux, Patrica Barber - every one of them!

the above I listen to mostly which is female jazz vocals.

then I have extensive albums from the following:
George Benson (whom I have met in person!)
Larry Carlton & Lee Ritnouer
Rusell Malone
Kenny Burrel
Bob James Fourplay (every album) have also auditioned them live!

the other many classic peices I have are from the following:
Ella Fitzgerald
Nina Simone
Dinah Washington
Sarah Vaughn
Peggy Lee
Rene Marie

Other music I also listen to extensively are from:
Chris Boti
Miles Davis
Chet Baker
Oscar Peterson
Ray Brown trio
Stan Getz
Lester Young
Sonny Rollins
Duke Elington
Ray Charles
Ahmad Jamal
Bill Charlap
Jacky Terrason
Carla Cook
Erin Bode
DinaDeRose
Jessica Williams
Casandra Mckinelly
Karin Allison

I also have others such as Sting, Eagles, Dire Straits, and some Carlos Santana, Josh Groban, Michael Buble... which the wifey mostly would listen to but also sounds quite awesome through the Quads.

That's about it, my last album was a special edition from Roberta Flack called "first take" and Stings special edition of his great hits performed with the london symphony - awesome music!

cheers, RJ

Raj...most guys who love a lot of hard rock, rock and roll, Gothic music don't do well with the warmth of Marantz Reference for whatever reasons. They usually like Krell, and those hard hitting type of sounding amps and CDP's. But those who prefer alot of Jazz love Marantz Reference and the warmth and realism that Marantz Reference has to offer. Seeing the list you provided, I would strongly recommend Marantz Reference.

[frenchmon]

Hey Frenchmon; type of music I really listen to well & enjoy,
I have all the albums of Diana Krall and Casandra Wilson, all the albums of Tiereny Sutton, all the albums of Liz Wright, Melody Gardot, Madeline Peroux, Patrica Barber - every one of them!

the above I listen to mostly which is female jazz vocals.

then I have extensive albums from the following:
George Benson (whom I have met in person!)
Larry Carlton & Lee Ritnouer
Rusell Malone
Kenny Burrel
Bob James Fourplay (every album) have also auditioned them live!

the other many classic peices I have are from the following:
Ella Fitzgerald
Nina Simone
Dinah Washington
Sarah Vaughn
Peggy Lee
Rene Marie

Other music I also listen to extensively are from:
Chris Boti
Miles Davis
Chet Baker
Oscar Peterson
Ray Brown trio
Stan Getz
Lester Young
Sonny Rollins
Duke Elington
Ray Charles
Ahmad Jamal
Bill Charlap
Jacky Terrason
Carla Cook
Erin Bode
DinaDeRose
Jessica Williams
Casandra Mckinelly
Karin Allison

I also have others such as Sting, Eagles, Dire Straits, and some Carlos Santana, Josh Groban, Michael Buble... which the wifey mostly would listen to but also sounds quite awesome through the Quads.

That's about it, my last album was a special edition from Roberta Flack called "first take" and Stings special edition of his great hits performed with the london symphony - awesome music!

cheers, RJ

Its also nice to see I have a deep passion for the same music as you....Besides having just about all the artist you mentioned above in my musical library...

I also just recently purchased first printings of Roberto Flack on vinyl... "First Take", "Chapter Two" , "Killing Me Softly" and "Born to Love (with Peabo Bryson)"

Happy Listening.

frenchmon

[blackraven]

Raj, we have a lot of the same tastes in music. I like a lot of female vocal Jazz but I'm into Blue's, RR, acoustic and some classical. I listen to a lot less RR than I use to. With your taste in music I can see why you want a tube sound. Frenchmon is right about the Marantz reference player being a great match for your tastes. Mr. P also makes a great point about sticking with CJ although I have not heard a CJ CDP. I have heard $10K Ayres CDP on an all Ayres system and Magnepan 3.6's and I did not think it was worth the money. The cost benefit ratio just wasn't there.

Here's a review of the Marantz

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/CD_Players/reviews/marantzSACD.htm

The 2 reviews below are actually for the SA-7s1 not the sa-11s2

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

[Mingus]

Raj, with that lineup I can tell you are really enjoying your music.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, would the Electrocompanient be an option for Raj?

The thing is $6k opens a large field of good players. I only heard Esoteric once but the system it was in I really couldn't tell if it warranted it's price tag. Most retail for Esoteric is over $6k but I recently have seen some universal players at Spearitsound near that price USD.

Electrocompanient is another good one. Its SS, open and detailed....I would not say warm, but I've listened to it with Audio Research Corp and McIntosh both tubes and it did sound very nice.

[frenchmon]

Raj, I converted my MV60's to mono, I have the EL34 version. I understand the SE has a bit more slam and control but have been told the trade off is a bit of midrange magic. I have questioned my CJ connection about other CJ amps, they admit the LP's would remove even more veiling but always say something to the effect "it wouldn't be as musical as the MV60". This leads me to sort of believe the MV60 is a special amp in their line up. Why would they even hint to discourage a possible future sale, that's why I trust them so much, that and the fact they've always been first class dealing with me.

I had a solid state CJ DAC, I think the PV1. It was very good for it's age, displaying an excellent sound stage. It was not neutral though, it had a very warm dark character to it. It would probably be very nice for your type of music but you could definitely hear it's softening of things on Rock or more energetic music styles. You do have me wondering though, now that I have other speakers I need to put the Audio Note DAC back on the system to see what happens. I typically liked solid state sources through my CJ gear for a certain balance. Only certain solid state gear though, I had a Krell CDP which didn't seem to have the synergy I was looking for.

At the end of the day though you should buy the brands available to you that would allow for a return if you weren't happy with it's result.

Peabody...if those where my CJ amps...you best believe I would have rolled those tubes by now. Don't you still have the stock tubes in those babies?

[Mr Peabody]

Yes Sir, stock tubes, CJ says they selected them for the best sound. They come with a good tube. A set of tubes wouldn't be cheap and what if I didn't like the result or it was worse. I like the sound of my tube gear but I'm not really a tinker. I'd be better off with solid state but haven't heard anything to sway me to switch back yet. The T+A comes close but I can't afford what I would want. If I had one of those auto-bias amps that would be more tempting to play with tubes.

[frenchmon]

Yes Sir, stock tubes, CJ says they selected them for the best sound. They come with a good tube. A set of tubes wouldn't be cheap and what if I didn't like the result or it was worse. I like the sound of my tube gear but I'm not really a tinker. I'd be better off with solid state but haven't heard anything to sway me to switch back yet. The T+A comes close but I can't afford what I would want. If I had one of those auto-bias amps that would be more tempting to play with tubes.

Ahwww come on Mr. P! That's no excuse...you know I know about that tree in your back yard. And CJ...best sound for who's ears? And you may have spent more on veggie pizza! Man you gotta tube roll man,mess with the sound a bit...see if we can get that sound a little more open.

[RGA]

I like the EMM Labs suggestion but the price ----

For sane money - my choice would be - not surprising - the Audio Note Dac 2.1 Signature.

I would not actually buy the 1.1 in either the DAC or the one box player. The problem is that the difference in price is not all that big and the performance jump is beyond words massive. It's an interesting line where it goes big jump, refinement improvement, big jump, refinement improvements going from 1.1 to 2.1 to 3.1 to 4.1. The 1.1 has a nice midrange but doesn't really get the bass or the upper treble - but "typically" the 1.1 would be geared for a budget and likely bright systems so a slight rolloff is not a terrible thing. But spending more on the DAC it is more likely the person has a much better set of speakers and amp so one does not want a rolloff or "aid" of lesser speakers since the speakers are likely to be superior.

The DAC 2.1 Sig is about $4,000 and you would then need a transport. AN's CD Two/II is a heavily modded Philips Pro transport but it retails for over $6k and is their entry level transport now. There may be some on the used market as some are trading up for newer upper level transports.

I would do your best to hear some of the upscale zero times oversampling and no digital and no analog filter cd players. Audio Note and Zanden are examples though the latter has an analog filter. They mark a very different and IMO better sounding alternative to everything else on the market that I have heard - for sane money. Though Zanden is much more expensive as an entry point. I like Emm Labs but the player was over $20k.

I would listen to this and then compare everything else off of it. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0505/audionotedac21sig.htm

[E-Stat]

I like the EMM Labs suggestion but the price ----
You can regularly find CDSAs on Audiogon for around $5k.


For sane money - my choice would be - not surprising - the Audio Note Dac 2.1 Signature.
You recommend AN? Who knew? :)

rw

[devuonoste]

If I had that kind of money to throw around I'd still spring for a great DAC combined with a solid transport.

+1

Totally agree with Poultrygeist.

[Mr Peabody]

Just curious why you all would recommend a separate DAC & transport? Sonically, I know of no advantage and possibly disadvantages to those who believe in jitter. Although some DAC's like, Levinson for example, deal with that very well.

RGA, I agree, I put my 1.1x back in the system for a listen and compared to the T+A I felt like the 1.1x was missing information. On the other hand the 1.1x had a nice dark warmth to the background that almost made going back to the solid state unit feel a bit like adding glare. I'd like to hear a 2.1 or better. The 1.1x was an incredible match though with an EAD transport, you'd think they were built for one another.

[Raj J]

thanks for your feedback Frenchmon;

yes, i agree there is no doubt that i will like (probably enjoy!) the marantz reference series since 99% of my listening tastes are in the jazz genre. now the only problem is as i mentioned, finding a highend dealer or importer who specializes in marantz. I have emailed the so called marantz importer in sydney, but never got a reply. they don't have any good marantz products, just a handful of receivers and very low end stuff... doesn't really help.

i think for as long as i am in australia, marantz is out of the question. also in the country if you were to import hi-fi/electronics specially highend and a brand / product that is not sold within the country, the extra duty fees and customs charges go through the roof! the marantz would end up costing over 10 grand! and this is not the road i want to go...

now i feel very sad! anyway will have to start looking for the next best thing...
any other suggestions other than marantz?
cheers, RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, I converted my MV60's to mono, I have the EL34 version. I understand the SE has a bit more slam and control but have been told the trade off is a bit of midrange magic. I have questioned my CJ connection about other CJ amps, they admit the LP's would remove even more veiling but always say something to the effect "it wouldn't be as musical as the MV60". This leads me to sort of believe the MV60 is a special amp in their line up. Why would they even hint to discourage a possible future sale, that's why I trust them so much, that and the fact they've always been first class dealing with me.

I had a solid state CJ DAC, I think the PV1. It was very good for it's age, displaying an excellent sound stage. It was not neutral though, it had a very warm dark character to it. It would probably be very nice for your type of music but you could definitely hear it's softening of things on Rock or more energetic music styles. You do have me wondering though, now that I have other speakers I need to put the Audio Note DAC back on the system to see what happens. I typically liked solid state sources through my CJ gear for a certain balance. Only certain solid state gear though, I had a Krell CDP which didn't seem to have the synergy I was looking for.

At the end of the day though you should buy the brands available to you that would allow for a return if you weren't happy with it's result.

hey Peabody!

yes, yes! c-j claims this to be true and it is true!!! do not change your MV60 unless you were extra weathly and had dollars to throw around...

i have heard the lp70s, lp66s and even the lp125 which i nearly bought! until i replaced the 6550c tubes with the KT120's it beats the LP125 out of the park! that golden c-j glow of warmth sound is lacking big time in the LP series of amps, other than their current top-of -the line ART power amp which retails for nearly 30grand!

the golden special c-j sound was only meant for true music lovers who know about c-j and what it stands for. then the company had to introduce new items and capture new audience otherwise they would have goone broke with all these chinese knock offs that are getting better by the day...

as a result they put out this new LP series which stands for liner pentode. the amps sound ok! and that's about it! they are not orginal c-j sound amps. hence a lot of it has to do with the internal parts as well as manyuse teflon caps which take a dam long time to warm up... anyway at the end the day these new amps do sound GOOD, don't get me wrong, but it is very different and it is definitely NOT the orginla c-j warmth. it caters to a different audience who may have not ventured on c-j before.

i will tell you this though! if you ever get rid of your mv60, you will miss it the day it leaves your hands! the mv60 is a true c-j classic!it is an awesome amp, and probably for the money the best i ever had! there was one other amp that was also dam fine about the same time the mv60 came out and that was the premier 140. another very fine c-j classic sound with plenty of guts to drive almost anything! at the time the importer had one, i couldn't afford the premier 140, i was a student then, now i can and they don't make them any more,. but the mv60 is a true classic no doubt.

that's why c-j told you that the LP series isn't that great because they know you already love the original c-j sound...
keep happy peabody! your mv 60 is a rare gem! you don't know it.
cheers, RJ

[Raj J]

thanks for all your advice and message folks!
seems like i will need to do some soul searching in the arena of digital playback before dumping and dollars, and yes I will do that.

i won't certainly just go and purchase something fancy, i've done that before and got my ass burnt! three times! don't we ever learn. now i am wiser, married and have a 9 yeard old daughter, so it's high time i grew up eh? nearly reaching 40 and my hearing is still good though... ha!

i have an idea of what's out there thanks to all of you. only problem is Australia does not carry all the brands you have mentioned. and as i have stated before they rip you off if you were to import directly rather than through an importer. so i need to really sit down and take some time off this venture and look around more closely.

but one thing of sure is that before i buy, i will consult all of you.
many thanks to all and take care.
have a good week and enjoy your music!
cheers, RJ

[blackraven]

Raj, here are a few dealers-

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Marantz-SA-7S1-Gold-Super-Audio-CD-Player-BNIB-/230620844322

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/buy/marantz-sa7s1-reference-series-audiophile-sacd-player/SA7S1

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/shop/hi-fi-2-channel/cd-players/1204

[Mr Peabody]

Raj, thanks for the feedback. I always wondered about the LP line. What you say makes sense to me, even though the CT-6 is a noticeably better preamp than my previous PV14ls when I upgraded there was a bit of the old synergy missing. It's like sometimes gear may not be the best you can get but for some reason it hits a spot in you.

If you order off line from some one like www.musicdirect.com do you get hit with extra duties? I was thinking I saw something on their site about discount on foreign shipping. If it was cost effective they offer 30 day return and carry some high end gear like BAT. I haven't looked at what all they carry in some time.

[Raj J]

Its also nice to see I have a deep passion for the same music as you....Besides having just about all the artist you mentioned above in my musical library...

I also just recently purchased first printings of Roberto Flack on vinyl... "First Take", "Chapter Two" , "Killing Me Softly" and "Born to Love (with Peabo Bryson)"

Happy Listening.

frenchmon

hey Frenchmon,
that roberta flack on vinyl must be awesome! i can only imagine...
aparently the preamp I'm using, the c-j ACT2, is supposed to have a pristine control over vinyls provided you hook up a highend phone preamp, since the ACT2 is only a line stage version.

I have listened to the ACT2 on vinyl just before I took ownership of it, simply outstanding! the lp was from Cassandra Wilson "Glamored" wonderful reproduction.

my current vacuum tube cdp also has a very warm approach, and a non-digital glare compared to other players, and I have placed it right next to the Qx4 so this helps by a far margin. The lp as a source would be the way to go, but too many cd's have ventured me in that direction. therefore to have a complete system for the long term I would like to someday get hold of a very good vacuum tube player that is far more superior to the one I have, and intend to keep it for as long as it will last!

I feel that I have completed my journey in my audio quest for that live natural sound & the closest approach - mainly thanks to Quad ESL's and c-j gear. it's high time I sat down and started listening to some good music for once!

cheers! RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, we have a lot of the same tastes in music. I like a lot of female vocal Jazz but I'm into Blue's, RR, acoustic and some classical. I listen to a lot less RR than I use to. With your taste in music I can see why you want a tube sound. Frenchmon is right about the Marantz reference player being a great match for your tastes. Mr. P also makes a great point about sticking with CJ although I have not heard a CJ CDP. I have heard $10K Ayres CDP on an all Ayres system and Magnepan 3.6's and I did not think it was worth the money. The cost benefit ratio just wasn't there.

Here's a review of the Marantz

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/CD_Players/reviews/marantzSACD.htm

The 2 reviews below are actually for the SA-7s1 not the sa-11s2

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

Thanks for those links mate, much appreciated.
yes, it certainly does seem the marantz is a great unit no doubt, but listening to one is not going to happen here in Austrlia, unless I was to fly over to singapore or somewhere...

I do not want to purchase anything vis on-line for that kind of money. no way! I have been burnt here pretty bad with on-line transactions, it's really not funny! once they have your card details your done for.

those reviews were quite good actaully, and I never really liked the Ayre sound myself either. they are dam expensive and don't seem to be able to compete with similar products in the price category they are trying to pitch at.

the ones that have been making systems for decades and are the closest to the real thing will be the best to go with. there are new entrants into the world of highend audio, but they still have a short road to get there... for me it is c-j & Quad, and Audio research & Apogee Ribbons (apogees no longer made of course).

cheers and have a good one!
RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, with that lineup I can tell you are really enjoying your music.

hi there Mingus,

yes certainly am enjoying the music; sometimes to the point I forget there is a wifey & kiddo lurking around!...

my late night sessions start from 11pm to nearly 4am during the weekends. find it very difficult to get about next day fire on all cylinders. feels like a worn out sock! but I've cut down on the listening hours from 11pm to 3am. the wifey doesn't mind it, but usually quacks like a mad duck if she doesn't get her schedule right the following day...

good thing is though my daughter is starting to like Chris Botti and George Benson... although she still prefers Taylor Swift & highschool musical. this is a good sign, as I can slowly get her on my side and then all will be naturally well!

cheers & thanks for your message!
RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, here are a few dealers-

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Marantz-SA-7S1-Gold-Super-Audio-CD-Player-BNIB-/230620844322

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/buy/marantz-sa7s1-reference-series-audiophile-sacd-player/SA7S1

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/shop/hi-fi-2-channel/cd-players/1204

hey Blackraven,

I just contacted the Aussi dealer, they're based on Brisbane, Queensland. up north from Melbourne, long way there...
anyway, the price is beyong my budget at the moment, they quoted nearly 12 grand! that would be right since the time of import from the US was at 6 grand plus, generally equates to nearly double that. altough now the AUD$ is on par with the USD$ then the price would be far better.

but spending 12 grand on a cdp is a big expenditure, unless it was a speaker system or amplification, then I don't mind. will have to pass on the marantz.

well, i'll keep looking anyway.
thanks, RJ

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know why any one would bring gear in with that ridiculous amount of duty. $12k for a $6k player is crazy.

[RGA]

Just curious why you all would recommend a separate DAC & transport? Sonically, I know of no advantage and possibly disadvantages to those who believe in jitter. Although some DAC's like, Levinson for example, deal with that very well.

RGA, I agree, I put my 1.1x back in the system for a listen and compared to the T+A I felt like the 1.1x was missing information. On the other hand the 1.1x had a nice dark warmth to the background that almost made going back to the solid state unit feel a bit like adding glare. I'd like to hear a 2.1 or better. The 1.1x was an incredible match though with an EAD transport, you'd think they were built for one another.

Interesting - hearing the new 1.1x one box player it sounded like it had more information through the midband than any other player in the store. Classe, Meridian, Bryston, Sim Audio. My issue with it was a somewhat lighter weight bottom end and a little thinner than I would like. Other folks in the store liked it more than me. They felt it told you differences in the recordings which I agree with but it didn't really have the weight in the bass and the top end was a little rolled off while the mid treble seemed to me to be thinner. Though I still preferred the sound of it to anything in the store at the price - it just isn't "star" material. Maybe I am used to higher level AN machines.

The CD players are designed for their own level one products - such as the AX Two speakers so having deep bass weight isn't critical since the speakers don't go that low. And the thinner sound may work for their entry level push pull amps and copper wired gear.

It sounded pretty good with the Sonus Faber Toy and Dynaudio floorstanders through Sim Audio's top integrated. Still for the money - I would prefer to go with one of their better DACs and transport (can get good ones second hand) and it will go farther.

The 2.1 balanced Sig is for me the entry level of what CD Sound is capable of. I hear the over processing and digitized sound of CD players more now than I ever did before. Filters, oversampling, error correction is the amplifier equivalent of negative feedback and personally I can't go back. From some reports though the AN DACs are a little more picky about transports - which is not a good thing if on a budget. But I need more experience with this report to be able to corroborate it. But a one time read pass to a DAC would logically indicate that the transport would play a greater role than normal.

[Mr Peabody]

Keep in mind my 1.1x is some years old, it came out before AN began to offer kits.

I found I didn't much care for Sonus Faber, they aren't bad I just don't like the bass presentation, for a speaker of that price and rep I felt a lack of good detail in the low end. Sim Audio also seems to have a good rep but so far I have yet to be impressed. They seem to have a dry presentation similar to newer Classe.

I wonder if other listeners feel or hear like I do, for me, it's more than just frequency response etc. I tend to be sensitive to the soundstage feel or presentation, like are the instruments just dead after you hear them, do you feel any ambeient information, size, or some gear has a dark background where some seem sort of gray, some may be more transparent where I get just a feel of openness but many of those tend not to have much weight to the presentation. I should probably start another thread for this but I wonder if any one would know what I was talking about, it's like I get a feel of the soundstage along with the sound. I personally tend to like a darker background as long as there's no veiling.

[Raj J]

I don't know why any one would bring gear in with that ridiculous amount of duty. $12k for a $6k player is crazy.

yes! Peabody you can say that again...

in fact that is why no one brings in high-end electronics into Australia unless you are the importer, because of the high duty they discourage this type of transaction for individuals.

what they encourage you to do is go to your nearest local store/highend audio retailer/dealer or importer and pruchase through them, not directly from the manufacturer, hence you can do so, but be prepared to pay over %100 on duty and other fees, unless of course you can smuggle it! which is not a great idea either...

oh! by the way I have a wonderful c-j LP66s sitting in my system at the moment connected to the awesome ACT2 preamp driving my Quads. I also hooked up the LP125 for a little while and didn't like their sound at all.

here's a quick comparison of the LP66S:
1. The sound is nearly closer to that golden c-j glow sound... but does not quite get there.
2. it's quicker, lot more quieter and punchier, more oomph!
3. very smooth, non-fatiguing, listenable for endless hours...
4. doesn't have the finesse of the MV60se. similar drive since delivers 60/ch but lacks some punch and lower definition.
5. mids and highs are fine, bass is questionable - a bit loose, not as tight as the mv60 nor mv60se or mv60se using kt120 tubes.
6. takes a dam long time to run in, due to more teflon caps being used, once run in for a while does sound better...

sound of the original MV60se: - much better all round based on the points as above using 6550C tubes, far better soundstage.

sound of the MV60se with KT120 output tubes: outstanding!
a whole new level of realism, definition and palpability and incredible bass detail. driven with an ACT2, wow! the live event is happening right there in its most natural state.

I am keeping the LP66S for a while, like to see how it improves if at all..., and will do some tube rolling with KT120's just to see if it can better my current mv60se - if it does then I'll keep it!

Been running this thing in since Saturday, no significant improvement as yet, although very slightly, smoother mids & silky highs. bass pretty much the same... not tight enough.

keep you posted, cheers!
RJ
p.s.
(keep that mv60 for now, unless you were able to change tubes to KT120's they are simply outstanding tubes!) you will be impressed

[Mr Peabody]

Again, Raj, thanks for the feedback.

[Raj J]

good day mates!

just got back from a wonderful weekend ready to start the working week ahead tomorrow.
on Saturday night went to my usual night cafe for some excellent apple pie with a few coffees and there they were the awaesome trio, a small jazz trio well know in Melbourne to hit the night cafes after 8pm. we had guitar, bass, and percussions. the sound was aewsome in its most natural state and amplified to a certain degree only that was very pleasing to the ears, not overpowering at all like most live perfomances that are well over amplified to distortion...

they played everything from chris botti to luis armstrong, plus a bit of santana, and the glorious astrud gilberto. went on close to midnight and headed back home just after. turned on my system and let the ACT2 warm in nicely with the Quads, and my golly did we get a similar sound if at all a 90% soundstage to match with. listened all the way till 4am, and realized that my system has achieved the ability to play the real thing when called for. hence I thought to myself in that case why the hec am I trying to upgrade the CD player? so I have decided to keep my little Cayin vacuum tube cdp for all that it is worth and sit back any enjoy the music! plus there is nothing that I have yet to come across that beats the Cayin CD50T under 10 grand. the marantz reference - forget it folks it's out of my league. the guy in sydney (distributor for marantz ref) places only specialized orders with 50% down payment, current retail is $13 grand! that nearly double of what it sells in the USA.

therefore, I thought I'd lay off this search for a little while I start looking again towards end of year. thanks for all your suggestions and feedback it was a real insight to the world of marantz ref, lektor, & naim that I had not listened to yet. all sounded very good but were all way over 10 grand.
the time is now 11:47pm and about to hit the sack, I hear liz wright in the back ground or is she actually here... must be. till then have a good one you all!
& enjoy your music! cheers, RJ

[frenchmon]

Again, Raj, thanks for the feedback.

Yeah Peabody goood advice.....(keep that mv60 for now, unless you were able to change tubes to KT120's they are simply outstanding tubes!) you will be impressed....very good advice!:devil:

[frenchmon]

good day mates!

just got back from a wonderful weekend ready to start the working week ahead tomorrow.
on Saturday night went to my usual night cafe for some excellent apple pie with a few coffees and there they were the awaesome trio, a small jazz trio well know in Melbourne to hit the night cafes after 8pm. we had guitar, bass, and percussions. the sound was aewsome in its most natural state and amplified to a certain degree only that was very pleasing to the ears, not overpowering at all like most live perfomances that are well over amplified to distortion...

they played everything from chris botti to luis armstrong, plus a bit of santana, and the glorious astrud gilberto. went on close to midnight and headed back home just after. turned on my system and let the ACT2 warm in nicely with the Quads, and my golly did we get a similar sound if at all a 90% soundstage to match with. listened all the way till 4am, and realized that my system has achieved the ability to play the real thing when called for. hence I thought to myself in that case why the hec am I trying to upgrade the CD player? so I have decided to keep my little Cayin vacuum tube cdp for all that it is worth and sit back any enjoy the music! plus there is nothing that I have yet to come across that beats the Cayin CD50T under 10 grand. the marantz reference - forget it folks it's out of my league. the guy in sydney (distributor for marantz ref) places only specialized orders with 50% down payment, current retail is $13 grand! that nearly double of what it sells in the USA.

therefore, I thought I'd lay off this search for a little while I start looking again towards end of year. thanks for all your suggestions and feedback it was a real insight to the world of marantz ref, lektor, & naim that I had not listened to yet. all sounded very good but were all way over 10 grand.
the time is now 11:47pm and about to hit the sack, I hear liz wright in the back ground or is she actually here... must be. till then have a good one you all!
& enjoy your music! cheers, RJ

Yeah for the price of gear over there...I dont blame you.

[Raj J]

Yes folks, "the land of the free and the home of the brave" is the best for highend audio, so is Singapore (where I bought my c-j & maggie system back in 1999)
I remember back in 1992 just when I was a student in Chicago googling over the highend arena, thinking I cannot afford those systems...

During my summer breaks worked extra jobs, saved a decent amount of cash & got my very first "highend" system in 1995: Krell integrated amp 300i something... 150w/ch) and managed to buy nice pair of Martin Logan SL3's, cd player was a simple Sony ES somthing series, & cables/interconnects were all Audio Quest.

In total I paid something like 3 grand! and this was a used system back in 1995; carefully used in very condition. A similar system like that in Australia would cost three or four times the price.

Highend audio in Australia is EXPENSIVE! and to afford anything close to what you would find in the US, you have to be working your butt off and earing some big bucks to get to highend. But there is second hand gear as well, very hard to find though and very rare. That's why a majority of folks here have the budget for NAD, Rotel, Musical Fidelity, Sony, B&W, Cambridge Audio, Kef, Jamo, and the like - forget the higher end brands never heard of!

Then somewhere tucked away down an alley you will find an unassuming sign that reads "the audiophile" or "Sound Reference" or "The listening room good vibes" and you have to make an appointment to visit. Then when you do eventaully get to visit the place - Ah! there you will find c-j, quad, mac, mark levinson, audio research & wilson state-of-the-art gear that seems more familiar...
but the prices! holy sheeeet- you can buy a house or sports car vs a pair of speakers...

Like my wife always says "damit you've got 3 cars parked in the living room which we cannot use, it only plays tunes!" and we drive an old mitsubishi magna 1989 model; well I am enjoying the music better than driving some fancy car eh...?

The wifey never learns, but when they actually sit down and listen, oh! so that's what it does...
but for 60 grand!!!
Yes, no doubt Australia is a bloody rip off! anyway once you get there you will appreciate it much more and I look after my systems as they are brand new, so if & when I do need to sell or upgrade they will still have good value. Like my last pair of Maggies I sold MGIIIa made in 1986- not a single scratch on it, they were in mint condition and I even replaced both tweeters before parting with it; lucky owner!

Cheers! RJ

Oh! by the way just a quick note to mr. Peabody or c-j fans - I currently have an ET3 preamp running in the system (had to send off the ACT2 for a quick retube); the ET3 sounds fantastic! Also noted a very important thing - the ET3 did NOT match well with the KT120 tubes, it preferred the original 6550c on my MV60se. Compared to the ACT2 which "loved" the KT120 tubes and took the whole musical paradigm to another level, the ET3 just could not get off the ground. The sound was dull and boring and didn't have that cohesiveness. But when I placed in the 6550's the experience was astounding! Not as good as an Act 2 of course, but very very good indeed. Every musical passage was there, 3D soundstage, excellent micro detail, and nuances all there! Well capable of recreating the live impact as well. I highly recommend the ET3 and surprisingly this unit is not expensive in Australia, hooray! Retails for around $3000 brand new, hence US price would be much less... I would think.
It's worth checking out!

[Mr Peabody]

Coincidently I also had a 300i at one time, I then went to the 500i before finding my way to CJ. I used Dynaudio speakers though. I do like Martin Logan ESL's and wish I had room to try a pair with my CJ.

[Raj J]

Oh yes Peabody the Martin Logan's would have been wonderful with the c-j amps no doubt!

However, there was one problem with that design and other Martin Logan's using the ESL panel with a dynamic driver for bass - it wasn't coherent! The bass always seems to arrive after everything else was presented in the panel (mids/highs/mid bass), the ESL panel was jjust way too quick.

This is where Quads & maggies set in nicely becasue they are full range you can drive without having to use subs, unless you wanted that extra bottom end, which is really not required.

The original martin logan CLSIIz I had for about 6 months driven with a c-j premier 11A; (didn't last too long in tropical climates) sound was nice but like all Martin logans they were very fast, lightening quick and very thin, didn't have the bottom end or warmth that I was used to compared to Quads, maggies or the infinity Ren 90, which I later used as my last reference speaker along with the mgIIIa.

Just as I was about to migrate to Quad's, I did have the pleasure of listening to the Martin Logan full range ESL called the CLX, previously in Chicago the Statement E series - now that's more like it! The sound was unbelieveable and so was the price! you could actually buy a small cottage with that kind of money... because the entire amplificaiton (4 monoblocks) driving the system were all Pass Labs designs which were also similar priced to a few family sized cars...

The older series monoliths & downwards plus their newer ones like the summit, vantage, vista etc are all very good in the mids & highs, to me their bass is questionable. Don't get me wrong, they have improved a long way since their predecessors, but when you here a full range esoteric design such as a maggie, or Quad, or even Wilson or Sonus faber for that matter, then you begin to realize where the Martin Logan's fall short, and for the money spent you could really do better, plus even save a bit!

So don't worry, you haven't missed out on a whole lot, if you're keen you could pick up a carefully used pair of martin logans, there are many of them still out there looking for good owners. But to me the Quad's have always been the closest approach to the original sound when it comes to ESL's.
Cheers! RJ

[RGA]

Have a look at the King Sound Prince II - it's less than half the price of the likes of magnepan's 20.1 and Quad's 2905 - and it sounds better than both of them. It's about $6k. It's actually not priced high enough for some to take them seriously.

My fellow writer and panel guru owner of many of them Doug bought a set of Kings which are only $8k - but they're considerably larger.

http://www.dagogo.com/view-article.asp?harticle=513

Prince II http://www.avguide.com/review/king-s-audio-prince-ii-electrostatic-speakers-tas-210?page=2

[Mr Peabody]

I have yet to hear Quad but get the impression they are really on the warm side. I like a speaker to be musical but not to sound slow or rolled off. In my current room I don't have enough room to do a panel justice.

[RGA]

I have yet to hear Quad but get the impression they are really on the warm side. I like a speaker to be musical but not to sound slow or rolled off. In my current room I don't have enough room to do a panel justice.

If you listen to any amplified music then there is no point in bothering in my opinion. If you must have them for whatever reason to me the ones to buy are the Magnepan 1.7 and the King Sound Prince or King. IME ESL sounds better than ribbons so at equal prices I take the ESL. Since there is no equal priced ESL for the 1.7 then the 1.7 makes sense.

One of the first speakers that interested me in high end audio was a Martin Logan panel - the holographic sound and open quick presentation is quite appealing. But the lack of drive and dynamics can't be ignored either and ultimately my analogy is that a panel speaker is like looking out the window of a home on the beach at a beautiful clear day - and the window is so clean that you can't tell your looking through a window. Awesome. A great box like the RA BOX or AN E is like being on the deck and you can feel the breeze and smell the ocean - but with that comes a little bit of dirt too. So be it - I want to feel and experience the thing and I'll take what the gives. At $1800 the 1.7 is outstanding - at $5-$8K IMO there is very stiff competition and at $15k I am not truly convinced by any of them.

Even at $1800 for the 1.7 the Cerwin Vega CLS 215 I would probably take. It has problems, what doesn't, but I can play more music at a satisfactory level of quality on the latter than the former. Certainly I can play the most recordings better on the latter since Lady Gaga alone probably sold more albums than the entire classical music catalog from every company on the planet combined. And while the 215 may have some resonances it also has more grunt in difficult passages. So you can "feel" that cello and that organ music. And the 215 is gigantic but then so are panels. Grante your audiophile friends won't be impressed by the name or the looks but...

[E-Stat]

I did have the pleasure of listening to the Martin Logan full range ESL called the CLX
Response down to only 55 hz is not exactly "full range" in my book. Since you note the system was driven by four amplifiers, a pair of subs were necessarily supplementing the bottom.

CLX specs (http://www.martinlogan.com/clxart/specs.php)

Using U-1s, I get measured in room response flat down to 30 hz with a slight rise continuing to 25 hz below which the response drops off sharply. And they are truly full range in that they use a single diaphragm for all frequencies as opposed to a two-way design crossed over at 360 hz using a mix of flat and curved panels which require yet a third driver to complete the picture. I find that a 90 degree radiation pattern provides a more natural image to these ears than does a 30 degree pattern. The sound field changes very little as you walk around the room. They do require, however, lots of power. Ideally, I would have about 3 db more.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you reminded me of a big check mark I had in the Martin Logan cons column, the lack of being able to feel the music. When I auditioned a pair in my home some years back that was a strange feelling.

[harley .guy07]

If you listen to any amplified music then there is no point in bothering in my opinion. If you must have them for whatever reason to me the ones to buy are the Magnepan 1.7 and the King Sound Prince or King. IME ESL sounds better than ribbons so at equal prices I take the ESL. Since there is no equal priced ESL for the 1.7 then the 1.7 makes sense.

One of the first speakers that interested me in high end audio was a Martin Logan panel - the holographic sound and open quick presentation is quite appealing. But the lack of drive and dynamics can't be ignored either and ultimately my analogy is that a panel speaker is like looking out the window of a home on the beach at a beautiful clear day - and the window is so clean that you can't tell your looking through a window. Awesome. A great box like the RA BOX or AN E is like being on the deck and you can feel the breeze and smell the ocean - but with that comes a little bit of dirt too. So be it - I want to feel and experience the thing and I'll take what the gives. At $1800 the 1.7 is outstanding - at $5-$8K IMO there is very stiff competition and at $15k I am not truly convinced by any of them.

Even at $1800 for the 1.7 the Cerwin Vega CLS 215 I would probably take. It has problems, what doesn't, but I can play more music at a satisfactory level of quality on the latter than the former. Certainly I can play the most recordings better on the latter since Lady Gaga alone probably sold more albums than the entire classical music catalog from every company on the planet combined. And while the 215 may have some resonances it also has more grunt in difficult passages. So you can "feel" that cello and that organ music. And the 215 is gigantic but then so are panels. Grante your audiophile friends won't be impressed by the name or the looks but...

I do like the sound of some of the panel speakers I have heard but the lack of dynamic capability at least with the ones I have heard did bother me. If I am going to have a speaker that big in my room it better give me all the audio goodies that I could dream of and at the volume level I want to listen to and I don't crank my system like some of the younger guys do but I do occasionally rock out if the mood hits me and the last thing I want to do is have a speaker dynamically fall on its face in the middle of my rock out session or me have a constant fear of it happening during my listening sessions.

[RGA]

I do like the sound of some of the panel speakers I have heard but the lack of dynamic capability at least with the ones I have heard did bother me. If I am going to have a speaker that big in my room it better give me all the audio goodies that I could dream of and at the volume level I want to listen to and I don't crank my system like some of the younger guys do but I do occasionally rock out if the mood hits me and the last thing I want to do is have a speaker dynamically fall on its face in the middle of my rock out session or me have a constant fear of it happening during my listening sessions.

Harley - another point is that while I usually refer to dance trance and rock and thus it makes people think that I want a speaker that does those things well - and I do - I also feel that these speakers like the AN J and E, Harbeth M40 and 5 and RA box do ALL forms of classical music a LOT better as well. The most critical things for me are vocals and acoustic instruments - piano, cello etc. These instruments have body rich overtones and vibrancy. I think good panels sound better than a lot of boxed speakers - so I get their appeal.

Interestingly I was reading a review in Stereophile of a Harbeth monitor and the reviewer compared it to the 1.7 and I think he summed up the reason why the Harbeth sounds better.

I think Layman on audioasylum note the critical area of 100-200hz as being something to consider as well. I still would rank the 1.7 and King Sound right up there in their price classes because you always have to make a choice on which kind of presentation you're going to prefer. I liked the 1.7 a lot more than the dealer here who sells them and several customers who were listening to them. They had numerous gripes about the sound of them that I partly agree with but I kept noting the price and discussing the agility on transients. But ultimately to me dynamics are the lifeblood of any music regardless of genre or recording quality. And while transient attack is important so is decay to capture the body and richness of tonal shadings on acoustic instruments. I don't really get that sense from any panel that I have heard - not truly. But if dynamics and decay and tonal shadings are lower down the list and that holographic nature is what makes you believe in the presentation then king sound is pretty darn awesome and for not stupid money.

[tube fan]

I like the Audio Note speakers, but none of the Harbeths. The Harbeths are low sensitive speakers with mid bass humps. Lots of people love everything British. I am NOT one! Also dislike most of Linn's products! Over-priced for sure. They would NEVER win a blind listening test!

[Mr Peabody]

I heard the Harbeth monitor, can't remember the model but was in the upper to mid $3k range, I liked the overall sound but I did notice female vocals seemed deeper than any other speaker I heard the same recording on which would agree with the midbass hump. I also, found that an unforgiving flaw in a speaker that price. I do find some very good British gear, Naim and Arcam are a couple brands I find do consistently well. I haven't heard Linn speakers well enough to judge but some of their electronics I like.

[blackraven]

I've never found the Maggie 1.6's or 3.6's lacking in dynamics except when not paired with a proper amp and down stream equipment. Are they the last word in dynamics, no. But I would not say that they are lacking. Maggies are definetly more dependent on the quality of down stream components then most speakers IMO.

I also find them no where near Martin Logans in lacking warmth or soul if you will. The ML's definetly have a unique holographic, airey sound but the music sounds cold to me when I compared them straight up to Maggies at my local delear using and Ayres $10K CDP, amp and preamp.

[Raj J]

Thanks for the great advice guys, and the much spent learning experience I have had from all your posts.

There is one thing I would like to share and that is I have stopped looking for that ultimate CD player for now, until c-j comes up with something worth while. perhaps a DAC or something, because my little Cayin cdp is doing just fine. Another aspect I was planning to do is venture into vinyl once again.

Just over the weekend I spent nearly 7 hours listenting to music starting from 7pm up till around 3am. I had placed in a good truntable from a trusted mate. It was a simple unit from VPI belt driven system with a Quad phono stage - outstanding!
Reproduced from the c-j ACT2 pre and the KT120 tubes on the mv60se through the Quad 2905's - I have yet to hear that level of coherency, detail, tonal balance and the absolute sound. Simply natural to the core, nothing else. This is what the ACT2 is capable of on vinyl it is a total notch up from cd source according to Lew Johnson, and he is right!

This level of playblack off recorded music is yet to be experienced - no wonder I was up till 3am, I could NOT turn the dam thing off, it kept getting better & better every minute! I will probably get hold of a Turntable eventaully down the line. The ones I used before never sounded this good of such prestine quality, then again I never had this kind of system before either...

I have realized that I am not doing the system justice by using only CD as a source, obviously the LP is far greater in tonal textures and that full ambience of musical presentation, refinement to the original sound. Now I know why a majority of you out there still have your turntables, you can't go wrong!

Jeez, still learning here I guess; now I need to start thinking about some good names in turntables...
I thought a well built transport & DAC would get you there, and then comes along some VPI TT for under $4,000 and beats the hell out of every CD player I have listened to so far... what's going on?

Now this is definitely going to be a new chapter in my audio life!
Cheers, RJ

[RGA]

The VPI may beat every CD player - but there is a LOT of music over the last 3 decades that you can't get on vinyl - so if music matters more than the stereo - and it should - then you need a CD player. And if you need one you may as well get one that sounds closer to vinyl than anything else. There are not many really good CD players that are also affordable unfortunately.