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Worf101
06-08-2011, 10:26 AM
Once it got "decent' reviews and semi-respectable, has jacked up it's prices to where they're HIGHER than some top tier brands. I was looking for a small LCD 27 to 30 inches for a friends bedroom and the Vizio priced for 1080P at those prices is outrageous.

My how the worm has turned.

Worf

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-08-2011, 11:08 AM
Once it got "decent' reviews and semi-respectable, has jacked up it's prices to where they're HIGHER than some top tier brands. I was looking for a small LCD 27 to 30 inches for a friends bedroom and the Vizio priced for 1080P at those prices is outrageous.

My how the worm has turned.

Worf

Worf,
It is not the reviews that is driving up their prices, it is them trying to shake off the "cheap low performing panel" their name is associated with. This means you have to use better quality parts than you use to, which drives up the cost of the panel. In spite of the "decent" reviews(they have moved up a bit in panel ratings), they still have some issues with black levels, and dynamic contrast. Color accuracy among their models has improved, but still not up to the level of the first tier models from the majors.

One has to also look at the fact that the majors have so cut the price of their panels, that buying a Vizio may not even make sense anymore. Their prices are becoming comparable, with the majors overall panel performance being much higher than Vizio.

pixelthis
06-08-2011, 12:57 PM
Vizio was always the best bargain in the panel business, great
quality at a decent price(I still have two, one five years or so old).
But that's what you do, start out with a low price, once everybody
knows your basic goodness, start charging accordingly, marketing
101.
Know quite a few folks that have Vizio , only complainers are
the likes of sir talky, trying to sell the notion of 5,000
underperforming (for the price) plasma sets in order to justify their purchase of same. THE ONLY reason I bought LG last time was I prefer their picture, but that could change next time.
VIZIO deserves their success, more power to em, any slight price increase is well worth what they are selling. AND THEY
are still the cheapest most places, still a great bargain regardless.:1:

recoveryone
06-08-2011, 05:11 PM
Let me cut through some of dust here and just point out the basic of supply and demand. Vizio has been one of the top sellers in the US for the last 2-3 years. so with that track record and masking itself as one of the last US made brands it feels it has a strong enough foot hold in the market that it can raise its prices to compete with higher brand names. If you have been watching the news lately you would have seen the big push towards made in America. people will pay a little more if they feel it will keep their fellow Americans employed and stop sending our hard earn dollars oversees. Some of us my remember that late 70's early 80's union campaign about "Look for the Made in the USA label", same mentality here.

frenchmon
06-09-2011, 03:14 AM
Worf,
It is not the reviews that is driving up their prices, it is them trying to shake off the "cheap low performing panel" their name is associated with. This means you have to use better quality parts than you use to, which drives up the cost of the panel. In spite of the "decent" reviews(they have moved up a bit in panel ratings), they still have some issues with black levels, and dynamic contrast. Color accuracy among their models has improved, but still not up to the level of the first tier models from the majors.

One has to also look at the fact that the majors have so cut the price of their panels, that buying a Vizio may not even make sense anymore. Their prices are becoming comparable, with the majors overall panel performance being much higher than Vizio.


, they still have some issues with black levels, and dynamic contrast. Color accuracy among their models has improved, but still not up to the level of the first tier models from the majors.

Terrence...that might be the word on the street and in print, but I bought a Vizio 2 months ago...and before I did, you best believe I did the research in touch, feel and sight...did my comparing to the big boys and I can tell you first had my Vizio is excellent in picture and all that comes with that. Right up there with what I compared it to. Don't know about you, but I don't always believe what I hear from the haters out there....My Vizio has an outstanding performance and the price was right, my sister has a high end Sony which is outstanding in picture and a price tag twice what I paid, the Vizio's picture is a notch behind her picture, and it takes a trained eye to tell.... aint bad for what the word on the street calls a second tier model...that's my take and ima going with that.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 12:22 PM
Terrence...that might be the word on the street and in print, but I bought a Vizio 2 months ago...and before I did, you best believe I did the research in touch, feel and sight...did my comparing to the big boys and I can tell you first had my Vizio is excellent in picture and all that comes with that. Right up there with what I compared it to. Don't know about you, but I don't always believe what I hear from the haters out there....My Vizio has an outstanding performance and the price was right, my sister has a high end Sony which is outstanding in picture and a price tag twice what I paid, the Vizio's picture is a notch behind her picture, and it takes a trained eye to tell.... aint bad for what the word on the street calls a second tier model...that's my take and ima going with that.

RO,
You can by right go on whatever you desire, but I stick pretty close to measurements and side by side comparisons, rather than opinions that are made with a significant time difference in viewing, and no mention of proper calibration. When compared side by side, and properly calibrated, even the current models of Vizio televisions fall from the middle, to the lower end of the pack when compared to first, second, and third tier models from other manufacturers. While I am glad you are enjoying your Vizio, actual measurements and visual comparison with other models in real time are a trump card for me.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 12:27 PM
Let me cut through some of dust here and just point out the basic of supply and demand. Vizio has been one of the top sellers in the US for the last 2-3 years. so with that track record and masking itself as one of the last US made brands it feels it has a strong enough foot hold in the market that it can raise its prices to compete with higher brand names. If you have been watching the news lately you would have seen the big push towards made in America. people will pay a little more if they feel it will keep their fellow Americans employed and stop sending our hard earn dollars oversees. Some of us my remember that late 70's early 80's union campaign about "Look for the Made in the USA label", same mentality here.

You are correct in one way...Vizio is masking itself as a made in America product. However, just like every other brand of television in its price category, it is made in China, and everyone knows this.

pixelthis
06-09-2011, 12:30 PM
Terrence...that might be the word on the street and in print, but I bought a Vizio 2 months ago...and before I did, you best believe I did the research in touch, feel and sight...did my comparing to the big boys and I can tell you first had my Vizio is excellent in picture and all that comes with that. Right up there with what I compared it to. Don't know about you, but I don't always believe what I hear from the haters out there....My Vizio has an outstanding performance and the price was right, my sister has a high end Sony which is outstanding in picture and a price tag twice what I paid, the Vizio's picture is a notch behind her picture, and it takes a trained eye to tell.... aint bad for what the word on the street calls a second tier model...that's my take and ima going with that.

THANK YOU.
Talkys problem is that he has been so busy slamming just about
every brand of flat panel(especially VIZIO) trying to push plasma
sets that he hasn't noticed that his credibility is suffering.
This is a problem faced by a corp shill.
Its not just VIZIO, he also said that my LG had THREE HUNDRED lines of resolution!!! This would put it in a league with any NTSC
SD set!
ANY modern 1080p set is going to get 900 lines at least without
hardly trying.
WHO DOES Talky always quote? a PANNY shill masquerading
as impartial while his website is covered in PANNY BLUE.
So take his "facts" with a grain of salt, as you would with anybody trying to sell something.
PANASONIC built a huge plasma factory at the worst possible time, they have a lot of product to push.
AND I am still ticked at all of the assaults on both VIZIO and LG
in particular, and LCD tech in general.
THE FIRST CARS could not clear a hundred miles an hour, but won the day eventually. LCD is going to be the dominant
display tech until OLED is perfected, maybe even after.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 12:34 PM
Vizio was always the best bargain in the panel business, great
quality at a decent price(I still have two, one five years or so old).
But that's what you do, start out with a low price, once everybody
knows your basic goodness, start charging accordingly, marketing
101.
Know quite a few folks that have Vizio , only complainers are
the likes of sir talky, trying to sell the notion of 5,000
underperforming (for the price) plasma sets in order to justify their purchase of same. THE ONLY reason I bought LG last time was I prefer their picture, but that could change next time.
VIZIO deserves their success, more power to em, any slight price increase is well worth what they are selling. AND THEY
are still the cheapest most places, still a great bargain regardless.:1:

They are not a bargain any more as Worf has pointed out. The good thing that vizio does have is a supply contract with Sam's Club, and Walmart....the homes of cheap price low quality products.

pixelthis
06-09-2011, 12:49 PM
They are not a bargain any more as Worf has pointed out. The good thing that vizio does have is a supply contract with Sam's Club, and Walmart....the homes of cheap price low quality products.

CHEAP maybe but certainly not low quality.
One is going on six years and the other on three, with no problems whatsoever.
THE thing is, the 42" I sold to my dad evoked an unusual
response. HE watches a lot of TV, but has never praised a TV like he has praised this one, he loves it, really.
AND at the end of the day, that will sell sets more than anything,
mainly a decent picture, people will pay more for one.
AND vizio has figured out a good formula for one.
If you waited while they built market share with artificially low prices,
TOUGH LUCK, you will have to pay a price closer to what they are worth.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 01:06 PM
CHEAP maybe but certainly not low quality.
One is going on six years and the other on three, with no problems whatsoever.
THE thing is, the 42" I sold to my dad evoked an unusual
response. HE watches a lot of TV, but has never praised a TV like he has praised this one, he loves it, really.
AND at the end of the day, that will sell sets more than anything,
mainly a decent picture, people will pay more for one.
AND vizio has figured out a good formula for one.
If you waited while they built market share with artificially low prices,
TOUGH LUCK, you will have to pay a price closer to what they are worth.:1:

There are Westinghouse and Coby televisions still working, but that does not mean they are quality products. In many ways, Vizio and Westinghouse have something in common.

Worf101
06-10-2011, 07:36 AM
There are Westinghouse and Coby televisions still working, but that does not mean they are quality products. In many ways, Vizio and Westinghouse have something in common.

Tell me about it. I've a 42-inch Westy in my bedroom. I hink I reveiwed it here too. Bottom line. Big, cheap and was better than my CRT but in no way shap or fashion is it even close to my Samsung downstairs but it also cost a lot less. I made that choice myself and don't regret it. I'll hand it down to the kid when he gets his first apartment or something like that.

Worf

pixelthis
06-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Tell me about it. I've a 42-inch Westy in my bedroom. I hink I reveiwed it here too. Bottom line. Big, cheap and was better than my CRT but in no way shap or fashion is it even close to my Samsung downstairs but it also cost a lot less. I made that choice myself and don't regret it. I'll hand it down to the kid when he gets his first apartment or something like that.

Worf

Westinghouse started out with some decent reviews.
There will always be a place for the WESTINGHOUSES of the
world.
SOMETIMES perfection is not possible or even desired(because of price). Paying too much attention to the gear and not the media
is no way to live.:1:

frenchmon
06-10-2011, 03:59 PM
RO,
You can by right go on whatever you desire, but I stick pretty close to measurements and side by side comparisons, rather than opinions that are made with a significant time difference in viewing, and no mention of proper calibration. When compared side by side, and properly calibrated, even the current models of Vizio televisions fall from the middle, to the lower end of the pack when compared to first, second, and third tier models from other manufacturers. While I am glad you are enjoying your Vizio, actual measurements and visual comparison with other models in real time are a trump card for me.

Well...Terrence...I don't have the professional training that you may have in this, but thanks for at least being happy for me. I really do enjoy the Vizio....end the end thats what really matters.

frenchmon
06-10-2011, 04:08 PM
]THANK YOU.[/B]
Talkys problem is that he has been so busy slamming just about
every brand of flat panel(especially VIZIO) trying to push plasma
sets that he hasn't noticed that his credibility is suffering.
This is a problem faced by a corp shill.
Its not just VIZIO, he also said that my LG had THREE HUNDRED lines of resolution!!! This would put it in a league with any NTSC
SD set!
ANY modern 1080p set is going to get 900 lines at least without
hardly trying.
WHO DOES Talky always quote? a PANNY shill masquerading
as impartial while his website is covered in PANNY BLUE.
So take his "facts" with a grain of salt, as you would with anybody trying to sell something.
PANASONIC built a huge plasma factory at the worst possible time, they have a lot of product to push.
AND I am still ticked at all of the assaults on both VIZIO and LG
in particular, and LCD tech in general.
THE FIRST CARS could not clear a hundred miles an hour, but won the day eventually. LCD is going to be the dominant
display tech until OLED is perfected, maybe even after.:1:

Your welcome!

Weather Terrence is just talking a con or not, I don't know. Its not worth me getting all bent out of shape over it....in my real world experience the Vizio is just outstanding and the price was right. I got a 3 year warranty so I aint sweating any bullets over here about a TV.....got bigger fish to worry about, like my 5 year just getting diagnosed with mild autism....but I will be making another Vizio purchase in the future if the one I have keeps on performing like it is.

frenchmon
06-10-2011, 04:11 PM
They are not a bargain any more as Worf has pointed out. The good thing that vizio does have is a supply contract with Sam's Club, and Walmart....the homes of cheap price low quality products.

Ahhh now you using a very broad brush....My Vita Mix was a good $500 and it aint got cheap parts...:ciappa:

frenchmon
06-10-2011, 04:14 PM
You guys sound like a bunch of TV snobbs....

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-11-2011, 03:27 PM
You guys sound like a bunch of TV snobbs....

I am no more a snob on video than the audio guys are on audio. Whether you are strongly into home theater or audio, or both, you want the best performance you can get for the dollar. Most audio guys believe a receiver will never be good enough as a pre-pro for a high end system. I would say the same for a Vizio television in the world of video. Vizio's are good for casual applications, like a second set in a bedroom. However, nobody in their right mind would recommend one for their primary viewing area, if performance is a big factor.

When you have owned, or own a Sony, Samsung, or Panasonic set, Vizio cannot sit in the same room. The mid price sets from these companies outperform the high end Vizio sets. In many cases their lower tier sets do as well. Considering Vizio recent price hikes, it is no longer a real value when based on price versus performance factors.

As I have said before, whomever has purchased a Vizio set, enjoy it. But just keep it real what you have purchased. Vizio is not made for prime time, or prime space in a home theater where performance is major factor.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-11-2011, 03:29 PM
Ahhh now you using a very broad brush....My Vita Mix was a good $500 and it aint got cheap parts...:ciappa:

The same cannot be said for a Vizio Television. ;)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-11-2011, 03:32 PM
Westinghouse started out with some decent reviews.
There will always be a place for the WESTINGHOUSES of the
world.
SOMETIMES perfection is not possible or even desired(because of price). Paying too much attention to the gear and not the media
is no way to live.:1:

You cannot get the best out of the media unless you have a display that can accurately render it. A Vizio set does not do that, at any price range.

pixelthis
06-12-2011, 03:17 PM
You cannot get the best out of the media unless you have a display that can accurately render it. A Vizio set does not do that, at any price range.

THERE IS a difference between "accurate " and anal retentive.
AS FOR vizio, several million satisfied customers disagree with you.
AS FOR BEING A "SNOB", ...please, your nose is so high in the air that it has a permanent case of frostbite.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-12-2011, 04:21 PM
THERE IS a difference between "accurate " and anal retentive.

You are correct! The former you know nothing about, and the latter you are the exact opposite of.


AS FOR vizio, several million satisfied customers disagree with you.

All this proves is several million people settled for mediocrity. Those several million are probably watching movies on DVD as well.



AS FOR BEING A "SNOB", ...please, your nose is so high in the air that it has a permanent case of frostbite.:1:

And you nose is so low that is has become an extension of your ass. Pixelated trollish one....surely with all the things going wrong with you (and there are many), you could do better than these tired, weak, wimpy and busted little juvenile comments.

Your becoming a bore bustapixel.

Worf101
06-13-2011, 03:54 AM
All I'm saying is that Visio's ain't such a bargain anymore.... Not that it has poor this or excellent that, just that its no longer cheap.... IN PRICE.

Worf

bobsticks
06-13-2011, 04:22 AM
All I'm saying is that Visio's ain't such a bargain anymore.... Not that it has poor this or excellent that, just that its no longer cheap.... IN PRICE.

Worf

Lol, my otherworldly friend, you didn't think that this thread would actually stay on message did you?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-13-2011, 10:11 AM
Lol, my otherworldly friend, you didn't think that this thread would actually stay on message did you?

Anytime a certain uneducated one(pixel) contributes to any thread, it requires boots and something to plug your nose when he is done.

GMichael
06-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Cats and dogs...
Cats and dogs...

dean_martin
06-13-2011, 12:25 PM
I'm pretty sure Vizio is the "official" tv of the NFL even though I doubt many NFL players own a Vizio. (That may change with the lock-out.) Anyhow, it probably cost some bucks to get into that position with the NFL. Wonder what happens with their contract with the league if there's no football this year?

Similarly, every time I see an add or promo during an NBA game saying that Hyundai is the official automaker of the NBA, I say OK, show me one NBA player driving a Hyundai. I'm sure we'll see Kobe Bryant on MTV Cribs taking us into his garage and showing us his Sonata with 22in rims. I'm sure someone caught a glimpse of Commissioner Stern leaving a Finals game in his Elantra.

(Nothing against those two manufacturers. Both have been around long enough to put out quality products. I just find the relationships amusing.)

pixelthis
06-13-2011, 01:22 PM
All I'm saying is that Visio's ain't such a bargain anymore.... Not that it has poor this or excellent that, just that its no longer cheap.... IN PRICE.

Worf

SAY anything about VIZIO and you get a speech from Talky
about how you're a HT sinner iffen you don't have a zillion
dollar science project made up of antique CRTS and scalers
that "the boys from work" cobbled up for you.
VIZIO is a decent real world way for the masses to watch HD,
no matter what the price. At a time when I couldnt afford better
they got me by.
UNFORNUNATELY that day is passing, they built up their market share, and the window for a great bargain is closing.
WILL probably happen with Emotiva someday, haven't seen
their 125wpc amp on sale for 250 bucks in a long time.
Such is the way of the world.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-13-2011, 01:52 PM
SAY anything about VIZIO and you get a speech from Talky
about how you're a HT sinner iffen you don't have a zillion
dollar science project made up of antique CRTS and scalers
that "the boys from work" cobbled up for you.
VIZIO is a decent real world way for the masses to watch HD,
no matter what the price. At a time when I couldnt afford better
they got me by.
UNFORNUNATELY that day is passing, they built up their market share, and the window for a great bargain is closing.
WILL probably happen with Emotiva someday, haven't seen
their 125wpc amp on sale for 250 bucks in a long time.
Such is the way of the world.:1:

Pix, I don't think you are a sinner. I think you are cheap as hell. There is a difference. I guess you feel that because you owned a Vizio, it is a quality television set. Hold on to that thought if it makes you feel better, but the reality is, it is a(notso) cheap low performing set in the real world.

Worf101
06-14-2011, 06:09 AM
Lol, my otherworldly friend, you didn't think that this thread would actually stay on message did you?
One can ALWAYS hope can't one? I guess i'm an idjit, ever since I got into my first flame war ump-teen years ago I've tried to never say anything online I wouldn't say to a person's face. I'm just funny that way. I disagree with plenty of folks, even some on here. However unless it's a personal attack there's no reason for me respond in-kind and even then, it usually isn't worth it. And, silly me, I wish I could get all my friends on here to "civilly" disagree but I guess it ain't gonna happen. Still hope is better than dope!!!

Da (Don't Call me Ghandi) Worfster

GMichael
06-14-2011, 10:05 AM
I disagree.

(Does that help?)

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:03 PM
I am no more a snob on video than the audio guys are on audio. Whether you are strongly into home theater or audio, or both, you want the best performance you can get for the dollar. Most audio guys believe a receiver will never be good enough as a pre-pro for a high end system. I would say the same for a Vizio television in the world of video. Vizio's are good for casual applications, like a second set in a bedroom. However, nobody in their right mind would recommend one for their primary viewing area, if performance is a big factor.

When you have owned, or own a Sony, Samsung, or Panasonic set, Vizio cannot sit in the same room. The mid price sets from these companies outperform the high end Vizio sets. In many cases their lower tier sets do as well. Considering Vizio recent price hikes, it is no longer a real value when based on price versus performance factors.

As I have said before, whomever has purchased a Vizio set, enjoy it. But just keep it real what you have purchased. Vizio is not made for prime time, or prime space in a home theater where performance is major factor.

Terrence...I said that as a joke with understanding that you knew I was/am a audio snob. I suspect you do know it.:yesnod:

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:06 PM
The same cannot be said for a Vizio Television. ;)

LoL.....:yikes:

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:09 PM
You cannot get the best out of the media unless you have a display that can accurately render it. A Vizio set does not do that, at any price range.
Dis-agree here Terence....im looking at one as I type this and it pretty accurate.

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:15 PM
All I'm saying is that Visio's ain't such a bargain anymore.... Not that it has poor this or excellent that, just that its no longer cheap.... IN PRICE.

Worf

Well, I didn't break the bank buying it.....nor was it the cheapest in the store price wise....but it sure is pretty to look at! And... I got my three year warranty just in case tho.

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:18 PM
I'm pretty sure Vizio is the "official" tv of the NFL even though I doubt many NFL players own a Vizio. (That may change with the lock-out.) Anyhow, it probably cost some bucks to get into that position with the NFL. Wonder what happens with their contract with the league if there's no football this year?

Similarly, every time I see an add or promo during an NBA game saying that Hyundai is the official automaker of the NBA, I say OK, show me one NBA player driving a Hyundai. I'm sure we'll see Kobe Bryant on MTV Cribs taking us into his garage and showing us his Sonata with 22in rims. I'm sure someone caught a glimpse of Commissioner Stern leaving a Finals game in his Elantra.

(Nothing against those two manufacturers. Both have been around long enough to put out quality products. I just find the relationships amusing.)

And what car was Tiger Woods driving when his wife clubbed him upside the head with that golf Club when she found out about all his whores and then he wrecked the SUV???? Sure did not look like a Buick.

frenchmon
06-14-2011, 01:24 PM
Pix, I don't think you are a sinner. I think you are cheap as hell. There is a difference. I guess you feel that because you owned a Vizio, it is a quality television set. Hold on to that thought if it makes you feel better, but the reality is, it is a(notso) cheap low performing set in the real world.


He Terrence ...I own a Vizio...so take this:prrr:

pixelthis
06-14-2011, 01:56 PM
He Terrence ...I own a Vizio...so take this:prrr:

congrats.
AND THAT great picture? THATS JUST AN ILLUSION.
If Talky sez that it doesn't exist...it must not! Your eyes deceive
you!
YOU NEED to run not walk to the nearest SALVATION ARMY
or other thrift store, buy a CRT RPTV so dim you cant see it
except in the woods during lunar eclipses. Or custom build a
front projector with special ordered parts from EDMUNDS
scientific(out of business? TOUGH).
or you could buy a plasma, or donate plasma, whatever.
Anyway...enjoy.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-15-2011, 09:21 AM
Dis-agree here Terence....im looking at one as I type this and it pretty accurate.

Sorry Frenchmon, but your eyes are very poor measuring devices, and opinions are just what they are. When measured with actual measuring devices, almost all Vizio models exhibit mediocre color accuracy, mediocre dynamic contrast, mediocre to poor black levels, and generally poor shadow detail.

I can say(in a vacuum) that the Delos Dolby Digital version of the 1812 Overture sounds great. However, when I compared that Dolby Digital version to the DTS High Resolution Master Audio version, that is when I realize how much the compression of Dolby Digital is effecting the quality of the audio. The same can be said for any Vizio. They look good standing all by themselves, but when put up to a Samsung, Sony of Panasonic, that is when you see how truly mediocre their performance is. Now that they are no longer a bargain, why bother with a second(bordering on third) tier set, when you can purchase the middle of the line model from the first tier manufacturers that will outperform it.

No offense Frenchmon, but a little reality is in order here. Budweiser will never be Dom Pérignon.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-15-2011, 09:23 AM
He Terrence ...I own a Vizio...so take this:prrr:

:lol: ahhhhhh frenchmon, thanks for the love man ;)

Hyfi
06-15-2011, 09:35 AM
AS FOR vizio, several million satisfied customers disagree with you.


There are also several million Bose Lifestyle owners.....but they still own low quality gear...just sayin.

rich66
06-15-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi all, need some receiver advice for paradigm speakers

rich66
06-15-2011, 10:33 AM
can anyone help me out?

Hyfi
06-15-2011, 10:42 AM
Hi all, need some receiver advice for paradigm speakers

Rich, why don't you post a new thread in the appropriate location and give us enough info to actually answer your question.

Otherwise, the answer is Just Buy One.

rich66
06-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Ok thanks Hyfi sorry for the inconvenience

Woochifer
06-15-2011, 11:54 AM
Once it got "decent' reviews and semi-respectable, has jacked up it's prices to where they're HIGHER than some top tier brands. I was looking for a small LCD 27 to 30 inches for a friends bedroom and the Vizio priced for 1080P at those prices is outrageous.

My how the worm has turned.

Worf

Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

pixelthis
06-15-2011, 01:10 PM
Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

You can stop with all of the outsourcing nonsense...
NOBODY CARES, as long as the set works(they do) and the price is reasonable(it is).
Thats where a lot of these Vizio haters come from, they just can't stand the way Vizio operates. WELL, TOUGH.:1:

pixelthis
06-15-2011, 01:18 PM
Sorry Frenchmon, but your eyes are very poor measuring devices, and opinions are just what they are. When measured with actual measuring devices, almost all Vizio models exhibit mediocre color accuracy, mediocre dynamic contrast, mediocre to poor black levels, and generally poor shadow detail.

I can say(in a vacuum) that the Delos Dolby Digital version of the 1812 Overture sounds great. However, when I compared that Dolby Digital version to the DTS High Resolution Master Audio version, that is when I realize how much the compression of Dolby Digital is effecting the quality of the audio. The same can be said for any Vizio. They look good standing all by themselves, but when put up to a Samsung, Sony of Panasonic, that is when you see how truly mediocre their performance is. Now that they are no longer a bargain, why bother with a second(bordering on third) tier set, when you can purchase the middle of the line model from the first tier manufacturers that will outperform it.

No offense Frenchmon, but a little reality is in order here. Budweiser will never be Dom Pérignon.

never mind that a lot are buying Vizios that are sitting next
to Sonys, PANASONICS, etc etc etc..
And of course human senses are fallible, but this is the excuse of
one who has lost his argument. Nobody is going to run
a new set through a battery of tests to measure stuff they cant
even discern, why should they?
HERES a little secret, the "differences" that TALKY and other
slanderers talk about are slight, and unless the difference is
huge..it won't make any difference to buyers!.
WHY pay several hundred dollars more for a slight black level
improvement that you can not even discern? ESPECIALLY
when gas is over four bucks a gallon(although TALKY produces gas in plentiful quantities).:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-15-2011, 03:01 PM
never mind that a lot are buying Vizios that are sitting next
to Sonys, PANASONICS, etc etc etc..
And of course human senses are fallible, but this is the excuse of
one who has lost his argument. Nobody is going to run
a new set through a battery of tests to measure stuff they cant
even discern, why should they?
HERES a little secret, the "differences" that TALKY and other
slanderers talk about are slight, and unless the difference is
huge..it won't make any difference to buyers!.
WHY pay several hundred dollars more for a slight black level
improvement that you can not even discern? ESPECIALLY
when gas is over four bucks a gallon(although TALKY produces gas in plentiful quantities).:1:

The differences I talk about may be slight to you because you are half blind, and don't know what to look for.

As it has already been stated, millions of people buying a mediocre product does not make the product good. It just means millions of folks looked at price instead of actual performance.

One mans floor is another ceiling. Obviously my floor is your ceiling.

Woochifer
06-15-2011, 04:50 PM
You can stop with all of the outsourcing nonsense...

How's it nonsense if it's TRUE? Are you saying that Vizio makes their own TVs (they don't) or that that they handle their own customer service (they don't) or that they do their own R&D (they don't)?


NOBODY CARES, as long as the set works(they do) and the price is reasonable(it is).

It matters in that Vizio cannot maintain their pricing advantage once the margins get as razor thin as they currently are. That's why they're moving to the midmarket, because they can no longer trump Samsung, LG, Sony, or Panasonic's entry level models on price.


Thats where a lot of these Vizio haters come from, they just can't stand the way Vizio operates. WELL, TOUGH.:1:

How is it "hating" by pointing out the reality of their business plan? Fanboys like you just keep attacking the messenger without addressing anything (or even reading the whole post for that matter).

pixelthis
06-16-2011, 01:35 PM
How's it nonsense if it's TRUE? Are you saying that Vizio makes their own TVs (they don't) or that that they handle their own customer service (they don't) or that they do their own R&D (they don't)?

I AM SAYING that nobody cares (they don't)


[QUOTE]It matters in that Vizio cannot maintain their pricing advantage once the margins get as razor thin as they currently are. That's why they're moving to the midmarket, because they can no longer trump Samsung, LG, Sony, or Panasonic's entry level models on price.


THEY ARE MOVIN ON UP for the same reason that a lot do...
SUCCESS. You might hate it, but I don't think they asked you,
but having built market share, its time to cash in some.
THE American way


How is it "hating" by pointing out the reality of their business plan? Fanboys like you just keep attacking the messenger without addressing anything (or even reading the whole post for that matter).
Not a "fanboy", just admiring a well run company.
AND YOU HAVENT "noticed" the REAL REALITY of their
"business plan", mainly that IT WORKS LIKE A DREAM.
Argue with success all you want, people will either think you
are delusional or stupid.
VIZIO is number one, and that is ONE thing you can't argue with.
Don't like it? BUY A "botique" overpriced set with a fractional improvement, and pay through the nose for it.
ITS CALLED capitalism, although you liberaltards have no understanding of it whatsoever.:1:

frenchmon
06-16-2011, 02:30 PM
Sorry Frenchmon, but your eyes are very poor measuring devices, and opinions are just what they are. When measured with actual measuring devices, almost all Vizio models exhibit mediocre color accuracy, mediocre dynamic contrast, mediocre to poor black levels, and generally poor shadow detail.

I can say(in a vacuum) that the Delos Dolby Digital version of the 1812 Overture sounds great. However, when I compared that Dolby Digital version to the DTS High Resolution Master Audio version, that is when I realize how much the compression of Dolby Digital is effecting the quality of the audio. The same can be said for any Vizio. They look good standing all by themselves, but when put up to a Samsung, Sony of Panasonic, that is when you see how truly mediocre their performance is. Now that they are no longer a bargain, why bother with a second(bordering on third) tier set, when you can purchase the middle of the line model from the first tier manufacturers that will outperform it.

No offense Frenchmon, but a little reality is in order here. Budweiser will never be Dom Pérignon.

LOL...Terrence. No offence taken. Last time I had my eyes checked...they where fine.

When I had my Canton stand mounts speakers next to Dynaudio stand mounts speakers...the Canton out performed the Dynaudio in every way except the bass. The Cantons where producing sounds and detail, and dispersing music all over the place that Dynaudio could not fathom.

But as much as you try with my TV...I aint buying what you are selling...nice try tho. No offence Terrence, but that Budweiser goes down the same way as that Dom Pérignon with the same effect....while letting me keep a little more cash in my pocket....im sure there was no offence taken, huh Terrence?

Woochifer
06-16-2011, 02:33 PM
I AM SAYING that nobody cares (they don't)

In other words, every point I made was TRUE and not the "nonsense" that you claimed it was. And BTW, there are people out there that do care about these issues, that's why they don't buy Vizios.


THEY ARE MOVIN ON UP for the same reason that a lot do...
SUCCESS. You might hate it, but I don't think they asked you,
but having built market share, its time to cash in some.
THE American way

Quite the contrary, they are moving up market because they HAVE TO. Right now, they are in a bad competitive position in the entry level because they can no longer maintain a price advantage over the first tier brands. If they stayed in their previous market niche, they will die on the vine because consumers are not going to choose Vizio over first tier brands if the prices are comparable.


Not a "fanboy", just admiring a well run company.

In other words, you're a fanboy.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-17-2011, 11:53 AM
LOL...Terrence. No offence taken. Last time I had my eyes checked...they where fine.

No matter how good your eyes are, they cannot measure dynamic contrast, color accuracy, or black levels.


When I had my Canton stand mounts speakers next to Dynaudio stand mounts speakers...the Canton out performed the Dynaudio in every way except the bass. The Cantons where producing sounds and detail, and dispersing music all over the place that Dynaudio could not fathom.

This same comparison can be made by comparing your Vizio set to a comparably price Sony set. The Vizio does not have the black levels, the color accuracy, the dynamic contrast, or the shadow detail that the comparably price Sony has. The prices could be close, but the performance is not.


But as much as you try with my TV...I aint buying what you are selling...nice try tho. No offence Terrence, but that Budweiser goes down the same way as that Dom Pérignon with the same effect....while letting me keep a little more cash in my pocket....im sure there was no offence taken, huh Terrence?

This is a pretty common response when somebody buys something, but does not want to face the fact they bought it for the price, and not for the performance. Anyone that believes the Vizio televisions are performance products has their head in the sand, and is back stroking down de-nile. You can believe it in your head, but do not try and export that to more knowledgeable folks, it will make you look foolish.

Personally, I would not present a toast with Budweiser, the effect just would not be the same.

That cash you put back in your pocket did come with a price. That price was performance. Now if the cash matters more to you than the performance, then you met your goal. But if you thought you bought a performance product, and saved a few bucks, sadly, you are quite wrong on that.

Every year I go to the Digital Testing center to look at the performance of 50+ television sets from various manufacturers. I see them broken down into pieces, and listen to the technicians tell me why one panel works better than another, or why some panel's performance are basically equal. When they explained to me why Vizio performs poorly when compared to similarly priced panels, it boils down to how it was designed and built. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic's panels are designed from the ground up with parts and processors designed especially for those panels. The QC on those panels is very tight, and well controlled. That does not happen with Vizio sets. Vizio sets have panels sourced from Amtran, processors and internal parts from several other sources, and none of it designed to work together exclusively. This means panel to panel performance is uneven, and various performance parameters are not optimal as they are with a Sony, Samsung or Panasonic. One Vizio panel may have parts sourced from one supplier, and another within the same manufacturing run will have the parts from another. Vizio therefore can never accurately display the REC.709 specification for HDTV color accuracy because of this. Their black levels lean more to grey than actual black. The televisions backlight consistency is uneven over the face of the panel, they have the slowest panel response time among the second tier sets, and only better than a few third tier sets.

Now if you are fully satisfied with your purchase, that is great, you should be. But trying to defend the set as being more than it is - is plain ridiculous. Eyes lie and fool, but measurements and testing do not. So whether you are buying what I am selling is pretty irrelevant, the truth is the truth no matter if you buy it or not.

I was and am not offended, and I hope you are not either.

pixelthis
06-18-2011, 01:58 PM
In other words, every point I made was TRUE and not the "nonsense" that you claimed it was. And BTW, there are people out there that do care about these issues, that's why they don't buy Vizios.
Good for them.
HOW VIZIO builds their sets, etc, matters to fewer people than you think, especially since it matters not as far as quality is concerned.
BASICALLY its all you could drum up to attack this company,
you couldnt find anything that matters, like serious qualioty issues, etc, so you cite insignificant facts and try to blow them up like they matter... WHEN NOBODY CARES.
NONE of your "issues" has kept VIZIO from becoming the number one panel maker, because , again...
NOBODY CARES


[QUOTE]Quite the contrary, they are moving up market because they HAVE TO. Right now, they are in a bad competitive position in the entry level because they can no longer maintain a price advantage over the first tier brands. If they stayed in their previous market niche, they will die on the vine because consumers are not going to choose Vizio over first tier brands if the prices are comparable.

But the quality isnt, which is probably what you hate about this company above all else, they have found out how to make a decent TV at a decent price, something your masters fail at.
IN vizios world there is no room for a parasitical army of middlemen, sorry about that



In other words, you're a fanboy.
In other words what you say DOESNT MATTER.:1:

Woochifer
06-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Good for them.
HOW VIZIO builds their sets, etc, matters to fewer people than you think, especially since it matters not as far as quality is concerned.

And how do you know? Since when do you speak for everyone who shops for a TV?


BASICALLY its all you could drum up to attack this company,
you couldnt find anything that matters, like serious qualioty issues, etc, so you cite insignificant facts and try to blow them up like they matter... WHEN NOBODY CARES.

How's it an attack to state facts? Your assertions about "nobody" caring are patently false, given that millions of consumers don't buy Vizios for any number of reasons.


NONE of your "issues" has kept VIZIO from becoming the number one panel maker, because , again...
NOBODY CARES

And of course, your reply speaks to your persistent ignorance of facts. Vizio is not the "number one panel maker" given that they don't make anything. They are merely a reseller and marketer for TVs made by somebody else.


But the quality isnt, which is probably what you hate about this company above all else, they have found out how to make a decent TV at a decent price, something your masters fail at.

It's only recently that their TV reliability has gotten to the industry average, and that's in large part due to the fact that their pricing is now also approaching the industry average.


IN vizios world there is no room for a parasitical army of middlemen, sorry about that

Do you even know what a middleman is? The very definition of one is the brand name stamped on your TV.


In other words what you say DOESNT MATTER.:1:

Only to you, because I prefer facts rather than paranoid jibberish. :out:

pixelthis
06-20-2011, 03:43 PM
And how do you know? Since when do you speak for everyone who shops for a TV?

Since when do you?.
THE WAY VIZIO "builds" TV sets is a lot more popular than
you would admit to, as a matter of fact its rather common.
TELL the truth, do you really think JOE SIX is looking
at a set and wondering about the outsourcing, design philosophy, etc, or is he wondering about the best set for
the best price? TELL THE TRUTH.


How's it an attack to state facts? Your assertions about "nobody" caring are patently false, given that millions of consumers don't buy Vizios for any number of reasons.


millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible


And of course, your reply speaks to your persistent ignorance of facts. Vizio is not the "number one panel maker" given that they don't make anything. They are merely a reseller and marketer for TVs made by somebody else.

MORE LAWYERESE, THERE IS A HUGE Mercedes BENZE
factory just down the road from my house.
I GUESS that they arent making any MERCEDES BENZES
because most of the parts come from somewhere else.
GIMMIE A BREAK.


It's only recently that their TV reliability has gotten to the industry average, and that's in large part due to the fact that their pricing is now also approaching the industry average.

Actually, no. THIS IS false logic, like assuming something is bad for you just because people doing it die at a higher rate.
I HAVE TWO, they haven't failed, my brother has two, they haven't failed
MATTER of fact I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS A vizio
that has suffered a failure.




Do you even know what a middleman is? The very definition of one is the brand name stamped on your TV.

YES I DO, but obviously you don't.

Only to you, because I prefer facts rather than paranoid jibberish. :[/QUOTE]

YOU PREFER useless "facts" that have nothing to do with anything, this being because the MAIN facts are that VIZIO
is more popular than any other brand, and have a decent price,
and perform well.
All of these facts matter, outsourcing(which all manufacturers do)
and other considerations affect buyer decisions not at all.:1:

Woochifer
06-20-2011, 06:04 PM
Since when do you?.
THE WAY VIZIO "builds" TV sets is a lot more popular than
you would admit to, as a matter of fact its rather common.
TELL the truth, do you really think JOE SIX is looking
at a set and wondering about the outsourcing, design philosophy, etc, or is he wondering about the best set for
the best price? TELL THE TRUTH.

Try demanding "truth" from someone when you learn what "build" actually means. :out:


millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible

Again, how do you know what "all of the people shopping for a new panel" are looking for? All those shopping trips to Sam's Club make you some all-knowing supreme being? :out:


MORE LAWYERESE,

Nope, just more simple words that you don't understand.


THERE IS A HUGE Mercedes BENZE
factory just down the road from my house.
I GUESS that they arent making any MERCEDES BENZES
because most of the parts come from somewhere else.
GIMMIE A BREAK.

Try try try again, but you continue to fail. How disappointing that you can't even get your analogies straight. Like booze, you gotta stop mixing them together.

Mercedes actually designs their own cars and makes most of the major components.

Vizio does not design anything, and does not make anything. Need me to repeat that again, or are you just trolling? :out:


Actually, no. THIS IS false logic, like assuming something is bad for you just because people doing it die at a higher rate.
I HAVE TWO, they haven't failed, my brother has two, they haven't failed
MATTER of fact I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS A vizio
that has suffered a failure.

Actually yes. It's only false logic to you because you don't get it.


YES I DO, but obviously you don't.

So, how is a company that does none of its own manufacturing, none of its own customer support, none of its own parts distribution, none of its own repair servicing, and none of its own product design, not functioning as the "middleman"? :rolleyes:


YOU PREFER useless "facts" that have nothing to do with anything, this being because the MAIN facts are that VIZIO
is more popular than any other brand, and have a decent price,
and perform well.
All of these facts matter, outsourcing(which all manufacturers do)
and other considerations affect buyer decisions not at all.:1:

Again, I prefer facts. They're only useless to you because Vizio fanboys would rather ignore them.

Smokey
06-20-2011, 06:18 PM
Vizio does not design anything, and does not make anything. Need me to repeat that again, or are you just trolling? :out:

Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the-big-picture-how-william-wang-managed-vizio-x2019-s-meteoric-2-billion-rise-in-the-flat-panel-tv-market/?paging=1

frenchmon
06-21-2011, 02:09 AM
No matter how good your eyes are, they cannot measure dynamic contrast, color accuracy, or black levels.



This same comparison can be made by comparing your Vizio set to a comparably price Sony set. The Vizio does not have the black levels, the color accuracy, the dynamic contrast, or the shadow detail that the comparably price Sony has. The prices could be close, but the performance is not.



This is a pretty common response when somebody buys something, but does not want to face the fact they bought it for the price, and not for the performance. Anyone that believes the Vizio televisions are performance products has their head in the sand, and is back stroking down de-nile. You can believe it in your head, but do not try and export that to more knowledgeable folks, it will make you look foolish.

Personally, I would not present a toast with Budweiser, the effect just would not be the same.

That cash you put back in your pocket did come with a price. That price was performance. Now if the cash matters more to you than the performance, then you met your goal. But if you thought you bought a performance product, and saved a few bucks, sadly, you are quite wrong on that.

Every year I go to the Digital Testing center to look at the performance of 50+ television sets from various manufacturers. I see them broken down into pieces, and listen to the technicians tell me why one panel works better than another, or why some panel's performance are basically equal. When they explained to me why Vizio performs poorly when compared to similarly priced panels, it boils down to how it was designed and built. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic's panels are designed from the ground up with parts and processors designed especially for those panels. The QC on those panels is very tight, and well controlled. That does not happen with Vizio sets. Vizio sets have panels sourced from Amtran, processors and internal parts from several other sources, and none of it designed to work together exclusively. This means panel to panel performance is uneven, and various performance parameters are not optimal as they are with a Sony, Samsung or Panasonic. One Vizio panel may have parts sourced from one supplier, and another within the same manufacturing run will have the parts from another. Vizio therefore can never accurately display the REC.709 specification for HDTV color accuracy because of this. Their black levels lean more to grey than actual black. The televisions backlight consistency is uneven over the face of the panel, they have the slowest panel response time among the second tier sets, and only better than a few third tier sets.

Now if you are fully satisfied with your purchase, that is great, you should be. But trying to defend the set as being more than it is - is plain ridiculous. Eyes lie and fool, but measurements and testing do not. So whether you are buying what I am selling is pretty irrelevant, the truth is the truth no matter if you buy it or not.

I was and am not offended, and I hope you are not either.


Well Man...you know ima bow out of this one Terrence. But heres the bottom line with me and the TV. Not saying you are wrong about what you say, I even went by the store and looked at a few brands and could see some credibility in what you are saying, but for me....its not about the best performance from a tv. Just so long as it looks really good when I want it to. Its not like I spend most of my free time watching the tube, unless a game is on, or I feel like watching blue ray. When I got free time at home and want to go into my nothing box, you can find me away from the wife and kids, down in my two channel room spending time with my albums. But seeing your passion about the performance of digital video, and my passion about audio, I can see where you are coming from, and I saw it from the beginning of our conversation, but seeing I never enter-act with you much, I decided to carry the conversation on a bit with out crossing the line with you. So it was all in good fun and conversation Terrence....and I do think there is some credibility in what you say but video is not that deep to me as audio.

TTYL

frenchmon

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-21-2011, 08:24 AM
Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the-big-picture-how-william-wang-managed-vizio-x2019-s-meteoric-2-billion-rise-in-the-flat-panel-tv-market/?paging=1

Smoke,
They can do the actual designs, but if the parts and processors were not designed to optimally work with that design, then the performance of the set is compromised. This is the case with Vizio televisions. This is why their sets usually finish in the middle to the bottom of the pack when compared with other sets.

Woochifer
06-21-2011, 11:46 AM
Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the-big-picture-how-william-wang-managed-vizio-x2019-s-meteoric-2-billion-rise-in-the-flat-panel-tv-market/?paging=1

And what are they "designing"? The case? The specs? Cobbling together a bunch of spec components?

Amtran does most of the actual design work and manufacturing for the circuit boards. LG supplies most of the LCD panels. Foxconn and a bunch of others do the assembly. What's Vizio actually "designing" if all of the major components are outsourced?

pixelthis
06-21-2011, 01:44 PM
And what are they "designing"? The case? The specs? Cobbling together a bunch of spec components?

Amtran does most of the actual design work and manufacturing for the circuit boards. LG supplies most of the LCD panels. Foxconn and a bunch of others do the assembly. What's Vizio actually "designing" if all of the major components are outsourced?

Well, why dontcha call the engineering police and file a complaint.
Somebody outsourcing...GEE! That never happened before!
METHINKS YOU'RE JUST MAD because this is working so well,
plays with your sense of fairplay or something.
I SUGGEST YOU READ some books on capitalism and how
companies handle resources, like how not wasting time on something that already exists is a good thing, saves
the consumer money, and delivers a better product at a lower price.
LIKE when they used the DVDO scaler, of course iffen it was you you would completely design a new one from the ground up,
with maybe better specs by .000001 %.
VIZIO doesn't care if you disapprove of outsourcing, I GUESS,
and the thousands of other companies that follow the practice
probably don't either.
TELL ya what, ace, find a street corner, get a sign that says that every company has to build their stuff from scratch(which nobody
does, everybody outsources) and walk around on your street-corner until the guys with the butterfly nets grab you and give you a ride to the institute, give you some happy pills or something.:1:

Woochifer
06-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Well, why dontcha call the engineering police and file a complaint.
Somebody outsourcing...GEE! That never happened before!
METHINKS YOU'RE JUST MAD because this is working so well,
plays with your sense of fairplay or something.
I SUGGEST YOU READ some books on capitalism and how
companies handle resources, like how not wasting time on something that already exists is a good thing, saves
the consumer money, and delivers a better product at a lower price.
LIKE when they used the DVDO scaler, of course iffen it was you you would completely design a new one from the ground up,
with maybe better specs by .000001 %.
VIZIO doesn't care if you disapprove of outsourcing, I GUESS,
and the thousands of other companies that follow the practice
probably don't either.
TELL ya what, ace, find a street corner, get a sign that says that every company has to build their stuff from scratch(which nobody
does, everybody outsources) and walk around on your street-corner until the guys with the butterfly nets grab you and give you a ride to the institute, give you some happy pills or something.:1:

Who's saying anything about whether I approve or disapprove? All I'm pointing out is that it occurs. You're the one that seems to be taking personally whenever somebody points out facts.

Read my original post to Worf. All of your usual ranting at this point is either all for show, or your reading comprehension has taken a dip for the worse. :out:

pixelthis
06-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Who's saying anything about whether I approve or disapprove? All I'm pointing out is that it occurs. You're the one that seems to be taking personally whenever somebody points out facts.

Read my original post to Worf. All of your usual ranting at this point is either all for show, or your reading comprehension has taken a dip for the worse. :out:

You seem to fault VIZIO for what is industry wide practices, as usual showing either an ignorant or naive view of the world in general and
the way companies operate in particular
AND YOUR way of "pointing" out "facts"(facts to you anyway)
makes one think you got your training as an intern at PRAVDA.
makes me think of what SAMUEL Clemmens said about
there being "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
THINK he was thinking of your type.:1: .

Worf101
06-23-2011, 05:06 AM
Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

Thanks for basically educating me on Vizio's recent strategy. I appreciate you staying "on point". I was actually hoping to buy a product from the OLD Vizio, large "decent" and cheap, but found their prices had risen exponentially. Still things will sort themselves out eventually.

Worf

recoveryone
06-23-2011, 06:30 AM
66 post later :)

Worf101
06-23-2011, 06:45 AM
66 post later :)

That was funny.... but true. Tried to give you green love recently but it won't let me!!!!!

Worf

GMichael
06-23-2011, 07:32 AM
That was funny.... but true. Tried to give you green love recently but it won't let me!!!!!

Worf

I got a green shot off for you.:D

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-23-2011, 08:00 AM
I got a green shot off for you.:D

I hope he can wipe it off.....:p

GMichael
06-23-2011, 08:15 AM
I hope he can wipe it off.....:p

Let me know how you make out with yours. :cornut:

bobsticks
06-23-2011, 09:19 AM
You seem to fault VIZIO for what is industry wide practices, as usual showing either an ignorant or naive view of the world in general and
the way companies operate in particular
AND YOUR way of "pointing" out "facts"(facts to you anyway)
makes one think you got your training as an intern at PRAVDA.
makes me think of what SAMUEL Clemmens said about
there being "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
THINK he was thinking of your type.:1: .

He's not blaming them for an industry wide practice, he's blaming them for not doing it well.

pixelthis
06-23-2011, 01:54 PM
He's not blaming them for an industry wide practice, he's blaming them for not doing it well.

BY "not doing it well" which do you mean?
THE NUMBER ONE SPOT in sales?
The rave reviews from the customers?
THE EXCELLENT service record?
WHAT? My first Vizio is six years old, looks as good as when I TOOK IT HOME, wish everything I bought worked as well.
EVER think that that's why they sell so many? Or do you
think people are in the habit of buying bad tv's?:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-23-2011, 02:46 PM
Let me know how you make out with yours. :cornut:

Can you pass me a towel? :thumbsup:

bobsticks
06-23-2011, 03:53 PM
BY "not doing it well" which do you mean?
THE NUMBER ONE SPOT in sales?
The rave reviews from the customers?
THE EXCELLENT service record?
WHAT? My first Vizio is six years old, looks as good as when I TOOK IT HOME, wish everything I bought worked as well.
EVER think that that's why they sell so many? Or do you
think people are in the habit of buying bad tv's?:1:

By "not doing it well" I mean not getting the best results possible or even results that are comprehensibly equal to what others have accomplished by using the same methods.

That's what I mean by "not doing it well".

That, and the fact that now they're not doing it well at a not-so-competitive price.

Your evidence is anecdotal and that's fine. But because the practice involves multiple suppliers with inconsistent quality control (a la Apex DVD Players) the utlility you have received from the product may not likely translate in the experiences of others.

pixelthis
06-25-2011, 07:55 PM
By "not doing it well" I mean not getting the best results possible or even results that are comprehensibly equal to what others have accomplished by using the same methods.

That's what I mean by "not doing it well".

That, and the fact that now they're not doing it well at a not-so-competitive price.

Your evidence is anecdotal and that's fine. But because the practice involves multiple suppliers with inconsistent quality control (a la Apex DVD Players) the utlility you have received from the product may not likely translate in the experiences of others.

AND YOU have what to support this?
No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about.
THE PROPAGANDA ABOUT "INCONSISTENT"
quality is just that...propaganda. Industries have had exacting
standards that bear comparison, like the I.S.O program.
Problem is that those slamming VIZIO think that reading a bunch of stats makes them some kind of "expert"...and naive types
such as yourself buy into it.
UNLIKE some on this board , I actually worked in a factory,
a factory which actually met ISO standards.
HOW much did they mean? THE man in charge of ISO compliance actually had veto power over the plant manager.
THROUGH ISO and other programs you can get an excellent
idea of the quality of the organization you are dealing with.
DO YOU actually think that a company like VIZIO buys
parts in some back alley? COMPANIES have to meet serious
standards , otherwise international trade itself would break down
MOST COMPANIES have strict QC standards, and there is several ways to judge this, the most important being the quality of
the products they turn out.
SO YOU AND OTHERS make the nebulous charge that VIZIO
uses substandard parts, well, where are your facts?
YOU KNOW the best standard of quality for a product?
THE TESTIMONIALS OF THE customers.
DOES VIZIO have any class action suits? MAYBE.
Panasonic does. TOSHIBA once put out a DVD player so
bad that there was a class action suit by the purchasers for damages.SO why don't these companies get slammed for their
lack of QC?
VIZIO purchasers love their sets. SO WHERE is your proof that
their product is shoddy? MY mother has a six year old set in her living room, 37", and a 42" in the den. MY brother has several,
in his bedroom and his daughters bedroom. AND WHAT about
all of the other sales that made VIZIO number one?
WHERE IS THE GROUNDSWELL of dissatisfied customers
that want their money back? I HAVE looked at the innards of
a Vizio, it looks pretty good, well put together.
ALL OF THIS talk about a lack of "quality" for a set that has
great sales records is really just a case of having nothing else
to mudsling in their faces.
Don't like the way VIZIO makes their products? Then don't be a hypocrite, go through your house and throw out everything built the same way, which will be most everything.
BACK in the VCR days I worked at a tape plant.
FUGI, Polaroid, RCA, jvc, and more brands of tape came off of the
same line, SONY and others contract out for lesser products like boomboxes, etc.
To say that VIZIO or any other company makes "bad" products
just because you don't like them is childish and unfair.
WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS that VIZIO or any other company
that uses outsourcing produces shoddy merchandise?:1:

Hyfi
06-26-2011, 03:50 AM
We got a Vizio 19" LED for my father in law's room in the Nursing Home. Within 2 weeks the screen developed a green line from top to bottom about 3 inches from the left side.

Piece of crap is going back!

bobsticks
06-26-2011, 11:14 AM
stuff

Pix, you really are a buffoon sometimes.

Everytime we have one of these Vizio dustups your perspective is always the same: Vizio makes great products, they're as good as anyone else's, your experiences have been satisfactory and above, and anyone who points out data to the contrary is an industry shill and a propagandist.

Anyone who reads my posts for comprehension understands that I have said before and will continue to say that Vizio has made a decent though inconsistent second tier set. That is not to be confused with SOTA or without fault. You repeatedly assert that anyone who spends more on a set due to what you view as dubious numbers regarding defects/returns or quality is a fool, naive, or an industry hack.

How is your anecdotal evidence any more impactful that HyFi's or any of the scores of negative reviews that can be found with a simple Google search---much less the actual industry numbers that indicate that Vizio has up to a 3% higher return rate than Sony or Samsung? It's a sad day indeed when the Pixel family are the arbiters of accomplishment in modern technology.

Do you really think that 107 year old MammyPix who views anything more complex than a gypsy puppet show in black and white has a dog in the fight over quality? Can she even perceive black level or motion blur? And, the Pixelettes watching Buffy from their section of the custom double-wide...really? Really?

That you were a rent-a-cop in a factory back in the days of magnetic media is meaningless in this discussion. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on modern quality control, it makes you an expert on donuts and I'll glady defer to your expertise in those matters.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-26-2011, 12:39 PM
Pix, you really are a buffoon sometimes.

Everytime we have one of these Vizio dustups your perspective is always the same: Vizio makes great products, they're as good as anyone else's, your experiences have been satisfactory and above, and anyone who points out data to the contrary is an industry shill and a propagandist.

Anyone who reads my posts for comprehension understands that I have said before and will continue to say that Vizio has made a decent though inconsistent second tier set. That is not to be confused with SOTA or without fault. You repeatedly assert that anyone who spends more on a set due to what you view as dubious numbers regarding defects/returns or quality is a fool, naive, or an industry hack.

How is your anecdotal evidence any more impactful that HyFi's or any of the scores of negative reviews that can be found with a simple Google search---much less the actual industry numbers that indicate that Vizio has up to a 3% higher return rate than Sony or Samsung? It's a sad day indeed when the Pixel family are the arbiters of accomplishment in modern technology.

Do you really think that 107 year old MammyPix who views anything more complex than a gypsy puppet show in black and white has a dog in the fight over quality? Can she even perceive black level or motion blur? And, the Pixelettes watching Buffy from their section of the custom double-wide...really? Really?

That you were a rent-a-cop in a factory back in the days of magnetic media is meaningless in this discussion. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on modern quality control, it makes you an expert on donuts and I'll glady defer to your expertise in those matters.

Well said wise one. As I have said many times to Pix, one man's floor is another ceiling. When you trumpet the idea that a Vizio television is a performance based set, then sadly your bar of performance is much lower than many of us out there.

If you totally enjoy the Vizio set your have purchased, more power to you. At this point, there are better sets for the price out there if you just look for them.

Hyfi
06-27-2011, 04:22 AM
Industries have had exacting standards that bear comparison, like the I.S.O program.
And if they actually comply to whichever ISO 90xx designated for TV MFGs, they would have a 99.9% quality controlled product. They do not.



UNLIKE some on this board , I actually worked in a factory,
a factory which actually met ISO standards.

I have also, and being able to comply with the standards is close to impossible, but not impossible. Companies fudge the paperwork every day to APPEAR to be in compliance. Your reference to you working someplace that did comply in no way means that VIZIO does so it is irrelevant.





DO YOU actually think that a company like VIZIO buys parts in some back alley? COMPANIES have to meet serious
standards , otherwise international trade itself would break down
MOST COMPANIES have strict QC standards, and there is several ways to judge this, the most important being the quality of
the products they turn out.
SO YOU AND OTHERS make the nebulous charge that VIZIO
uses substandard parts, well, where are your facts?

What has been stated over and over is that although the parts are not, or may not be, sub-standard, they were not all designed to actually work flawlessly together. That does not mean that the item won't work, it is just not optimum for performance and overall quality.




VIZIO purchasers love their sets. SO WHERE is your proof that
their product is shoddy? MY mother has a six year old set in her living room, 37", and a 42" in the den. MY brother has several,
in his bedroom and his daughters bedroom. AND WHAT about
all of the other sales that made VIZIO number one?

There are always good apples and bad apples. The sets may last but still don't compete with any Sony TV of same size and supposed specs. Most people are more happy that they got a CHEAP TV, and not the best one.



WHERE IS THE GROUNDSWELL of dissatisfied customers
that want their money back? I HAVE looked at the innards of
a Vizio, it looks pretty good, well put together.
ALL OF THIS talk about a lack of "quality" for a set that has
great sales records is really just a case of having nothing else
to mudsling in their faces.

I may not be a Groundswell, but the set I purchased didn't last 2 weeks. This puts their ISO Standard about 5 TVs from being out of compliance.



Don't like the way VIZIO makes their products? Then don't be a hypocrite, go through your house and throw out everything built the same way, which will be most everything.
BACK in the VCR days I worked at a tape plant.
FUGI, Polaroid, RCA, jvc, and more brands of tape came off of the
same line, SONY and others contract out for lesser products like boomboxes, etc.
To say that VIZIO or any other company makes "bad" products
just because you don't like them is childish and unfair.
WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS that VIZIO or any other company
that uses outsourcing produces shoddy merchandise?:1:

Again and again, the point you keep missing is that anyone can spec out dis-jointed components, put them together with whatever quality you want, but the bottom line is that they were not designed from the start to work flawlessly with each other to create the best performance possible.

Will the set turn on and display a picture? Yes
Will many of them last many years? Yes
Are many people happy that they were able to purchase a large TV for less than a Sony? Yes, and they may very well be using a Bose Lifestyle along with it.

Does the fact that the set was cheap and displays a picture mean it was all spec'ed, designed, built so that it is perfect and a top performing unit? No friggin way!


And here is my favorite quote but it needs to be rewritten-


millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible

I think you meant...
They want CHEAP as good as possible.

Another thing you keep missing, and wrongly arguing about, is that almost all MFGs use outsourcing. The issue here is that the claim is some MFGs just pick already made components from an outsource, and put them together in such a way that the unit works.

Other MFGs, design all the components to work flawlessly with each other, THEN have them each made by an outsourced sub-MFG.

Do you understand that yet? From your repeated position, I am guessing not. I worked in Manufacturing for 25 years so your not gonna pull any wool over my eyes.

pixelthis
06-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Pix, you really are a buffoon sometimes.

Everytime we have one of these Vizio dustups your perspective is always the same: Vizio makes great products, they're as good as anyone else's, your experiences have been satisfactory and above, and anyone who points out data to the contrary is an industry shill and a propagandist.

Anyone who reads my posts for comprehension understands that I have said before and will continue to say that Vizio has made a decent though inconsistent second tier set. That is not to be confused with SOTA or without fault. You repeatedly assert that anyone who spends more on a set due to what you view as dubious numbers regarding defects/returns or quality is a fool, naive, or an industry hack.

How is your anecdotal evidence any more impactful that HyFi's or any of the scores of negative reviews that can be found with a simple Google search---much less the actual industry numbers that indicate that Vizio has up to a 3% higher return rate than Sony or Samsung? It's a sad day indeed when the Pixel family are the arbiters of accomplishment in modern technology.

Do you really think that 107 year old MammyPix who views anything more complex than a gypsy puppet show in black and white has a dog in the fight over quality? Can she even perceive black level or motion blur? And, the Pixelettes watching Buffy from their section of the custom double-wide...really? Really?

That you were a rent-a-cop in a factory back in the days of magnetic media is meaningless in this discussion. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on modern quality control, it makes you an expert on donuts and I'll glady defer to your expertise in those matters.


most of what you say is meaningless for this "discussion" including insults of my mom, who at eighty still drives and
works 40 hrs a week.
BUT I am glad we agree on one thing, VIZIO is great as a second tier set, which is what I HAVE ALWAYS SAID.
For friends looking for something a little more caviar , I ALWAYS RECOMMEND Sony or lG, SAMSUNG is great, but have seen
failures.
FOR A CHEAP AND EASY "large screen" any DLP , either front
proj or RPTV is called for, although risky.
BUT IF you want a decent set at a reasonable price VIZIO is it,
or rather was.
If they go "upscale" they will either have to run with the big dogs
or stay on the porch, selling good for a cheap price is something
that has worked for them, but if they jack prices they will have to sell excellent, and that remains to be seen if they can do that
something else.
As for "working as a rent a cop in a factory" one factory where
I worked was as an employee, where I was dealing with QC on a daily basis. AND even though my electronics training is a bit stale, its probably better than yours, whatever that is.:1:

bobsticks
06-27-2011, 06:17 PM
BUT I am glad we agree on one thing, VIZIO is great as a second tier set, which is what I HAVE ALWAYS SAID.

Well, which is it? Implicit in the concept that it's a good choice as a second tier set is that there are characteristics or defects that prevent it from being a first tier set.

As for the rest of it, if you don't want it personal then don't make it personal.

pixelthis
06-28-2011, 01:51 PM
Well, which is it? Implicit in the concept that it's a good choice as a second tier set is that there are characteristics or defects that prevent it from being a first tier set.

As for the rest of it, if you don't want it personal then don't make it personal.

Just don't talk about my mama.
AS FOR VIZIO being a "second tier" set, that aint too bad.
THERE IS ALWAYS going to be a market for a set that does well
but not outstanding, for people who can live with 95% and
save a few bucks living without the slight percent towards
perfection, that is scarcely noticeable.
ITS all common sense, really. THERE are sets like SAMSUNG, SONY, MITSHIBUSHI, LG, etc that strive for perfection, and sets
like VIZIO and a few others that provide a decent product for joe
six, guys that like a decent set but are a bit strapped.
THE THING I have always liked about Vizio is that they are a
cut above the "WESTINGHOUSES, phillips, etc of the world
for about the same amount of money.
DO THEY give you a top level pic? Of course not. BUT THEY
do give a decent pic on a reliable set for a decent price, and certainly don't deserve to be slammed because they don't measure up to a five grand panel. THATS rediculous, which is all I AM SAYING.:1: