Phonomena review/questions

[paddler]

just plugged in a MS Phonomena phono pre in place of a Onkyo Integra P3030 pre, must say i'm disappointed. Not an overall improvement and prefer the old Onkyo. Not as much punch, seems laid back in vocals and upper end. Bass seems enchanced though. It has only been on about an hour, wouldnt think more warmup would help although it recommends 1 hr minimum warmup. have tried gain @ 40, 44 and load @ 50K and 100K, couldn't hear any difference between these settings.

using Denon DL 160 cartridge and Jolida 502 int. amp.
Any suggestions to pull this change out of the disappointment dept.?

[02audionoob]

I'd experiment with a wider range of adjustments, although I won't be shocked if you never get the Phonomena to produce the kind of drive you're looking for. Maybe if you had a hard rockin' solid state integrated it would be different? But nevertheless, I'd suggest bumping the gain up to at least 48 dB, although 44 seems like the right setting. I'd also suggest trying some load settings like 10K or 1K.

[JoeE SP9]

Let it burn in for a week. Then give it another listen. It might make you a believer in burn in. Devices like the Phonomena use so little electricity you might want to leave it powered up all the time. Doing so will probably make it sound better.

[paddler]

Let it burn in for a week. Then give it another listen. It might make you a believer in burn in. Devices like the Phonomena use so little electricity you might want to leave it powered up all the time. Doing so will probably make it sound better.

the manual suggests leaving on all the time, however it is a used unit. switched bck and forth a lot, still not sure which unit i prefer just different sound from each. finally thought to try running the phono pre thru the old Onkyo pre thru a line level input but havent tried it yet. back to the grindstone:crazy:

[JoeE SP9]

If it's not new forget the week thing. If it's been unused for a while give it a day or so. I'm not familiar with any receiver so I can't comment on its phono section. The Phonomena has a good rep so you may need to "dial" it in. It may take a while to get it right. I'd like to know what you end up using.

[paddler]

after more listening i still prefer the old Onkyo. To add more issues, i had forgot i had been setting it on "78 EQ" vs 47K/100K or MC settings because the highs are much more distinct. I'm not sure if thats a setting for 78 records or a different EQ curve.

The Phonomena seems to have a better soundstage, is smoother and the bass is more prominent but it doesnt seem to have any punch. I am wondering if my ears are ruined from to many years of crappy equipment.

[02audionoob]

Are 50k and 100k the only load settings you've tried?

[paddler]

Are 50k and 100k the only load settings you've tried?

tried 2000 also. i cant tell any difference between them but i've been switching between the two pre-amps back to back, not the different load settings. Also seem to prefer the Phonomena thru the Onkyo vs straight to the Jolida.

[JohnMichael]

I would set the gain higher for the Denon cartridge. Even though it is considered a high output MC it's output is not as high as the average Moving Magnet cartridge. I do not remember the gain settings on the phono pre but I would set the gain closer to level needed for low output cartridges. I would set the loading to what the cartridge manufacturer suggests.

Going from the phono preamp to the integrated amp you might have electrical mismatch problems. Your interconnect can cause problems electrically if they are not a good match.

Again I suggest setting the gain close to the 60db instead of the 40db. The phono pre has many gain levels to try but I would work in the 50-60db's.

As you suggested with an incorrect eq you may not appreciate high fidelity sound for awhile. I would plug in the phonomena and listen to it only. After a week or so I would replace it with the Onkyo and then decide which now sounds better to you. Once you are used to the sound of the Phonomena you might be surprised.

[JohnMichael]

just plugged in a MS Phonomena phono pre in place of a Onkyo Integra P3030 pre, must say i'm disappointed. Not an overall improvement and prefer the old Onkyo. Not as much punch, seems laid back in vocals and upper end. Bass seems enchanced though. It has only been on about an hour, wouldnt think more warmup would help although it recommends 1 hr minimum warmup. have tried gain @ 40, 44 and load @ 50K and 100K, couldn't hear any difference between these settings.

using Denon DL 160 cartridge and Jolida 502 int. amp.
Any suggestions to pull this change out of the disappointment dept.?



I had another thought about how the system is set up. Are you plugging your turntable into the Onkyo and then into an input on the JoLida? If you are you might be sending a higher voltage to the amp section than you will just amplifying the Phonomena. I am not sure but you might be double preamping the signal?

[Enochrome]

I would also suggest what JohnMichael and Noob have suggested. I have a Denon DL-110 (160's little bro)
I have found that it needs more gain than the MM stage can provide and about 5db less than the MC stage can provide. I have found great success with both stages on my Luxman receiver and CA 160 pre. Use the MC decibal stage as a focal point.

As far as impedance loading, I did the Y splitter-resistor mod that is known on the internet. A lot of people have suggested either 1k or 30k for high output MC's (particularly both our Denon's)

First trying an impedance load of 1k really was dissapointing. Why? It killed all the high frequency extension and open air qualities, and those two attributes are why you by MC's carts. I felt that with 1k it turned it into a Grado prestige with better tracking. So, it would be cheaper to buy a Grado black.

As far as the 30k load, I would agree that this is the best load. I actually used a 33k resistor that all the Radioshack's carry for $1.00. 30K kept all the frequency extension and air but cleared out the "forward" and "small brightness" of the upper range.

I hope this helps and good luck. I think you have a great (and sought after) cartridge and an awesome phono pre that is highly respected.

[JoeE SP9]

after more listening i still prefer the old Onkyo. To add more issues, i had forgot i had been setting it on "78 EQ" vs 47K/100K or MC settings because the highs are much more distinct. I'm not sure if thats a setting for 78 records or a different EQ curve.

The Phonomena seems to have a better soundstage, is smoother and the bass is more prominent but it doesnt seem to have any punch. I am wondering if my ears are ruined from to many years of crappy equipment.

It is a setting for 78 RPM records. Yes it's a different EQ curve than for LP's.

If I understand you correctly, you've been running your receivers phono input set for 78. If so this would explain whythe Phonomena sounds so different. The EQ curve for 78's is totally different than the one for (RIAA) 33's.

[paddler]

It is a setting for 78 RPM records. Yes it's a different EQ curve than for LP's.

If I understand you correctly, you've been running your receivers phono input set for 78. If so this would explain whythe Phonomena sounds so different. The EQ curve for 78's is totally different than the one for (RIAA) 33's.

yep, up until yesterday i thought it said 75EQ and never made the connection w/ 78 records, The 47K and 100K settings are way too dark w/ the onkyo , better with the Phonomena but i really miss the punch and live music feel of using the 78 EQ. Tried to find an example of the difference in curves but have had no luck. I did see where someone noted 78's seem alive and punchy :biggrin5:compared to LP's.
i had noticed improvement moving the gain to 50, i will try higher on the suggestion

Not sure what to next, going to be hard to be satisfied with the Phonomena when i know more dynamics are possible with the rest of the system but would like to keep the better soundstage and bass.
at least now i know why the rapture left me behind

[JoeE SP9]

You have probably gotten used to hearing LP's using the wrong equalization curve. Listen to the Oknyo using the correct eq curve for a while. Then compare the two phono preamps. I believe you'll hear that the Onkyo is not as good as the Phonomena.

[paddler]

there is no doubt the Phonomena beats the Onkyo on normal settings and increasing gain to 56 seems to have helped open up the upper range.
Trying to research the 78 EQ curve(s) for comparison, it is noted that 78's will sound dull and lack mid and higher range sound using normal RIAA curves, therefore i assume the 78 curves correct for this and result in the punch i'm hearing thru the Onkyo on 78EQ.
Prob not many preamps w/ the 78EQ option in use but wondered if anyone else has tried this, would like to know what someone else thinks of the result
Thanks for the help! getting started in this stuff has been a real ear opener.

[JoeE SP9]

Even if my gear could allow 78 EQ I wouldn't use it. It's simply not the right equalization for LP playback! I doubt you will find anyone using a 78 RPM equalization curve to playback LP's (all LP's are) that are recorded mixed and mastered to be played back using RIAA eqalization. Frankly it comes under the "That's a really dumb idea" catagory. I have tried to put it delicately but you seem to not "hear" what people are saying.

[paddler]

Even if my gear could allow 78 EQ I wouldn't use it. It's simply not the right equalization for LP playback! I doubt you will find anyone using a 78 RPM equalization curve to playback LP's (all LP's are) that are recorded mixed and mastered to be played back using RIAA eqalization. Frankly it comes under the "That's a really dumb idea" catagory. I have tried to put it delicately but you seem to not "hear" what people are saying.

:D no need for delicacy here
i understand its wrong but there's an aspect that sounds better. not all, just some. trying to figure out how to keep the good part whether "correct" or not.

[JohnMichael]

Many of us work to assemble an accurate system. When someone asks for advice we advise for accuracy. By accuracy I would like my records to sound tonally close to hearing the same music live in a concert hall.

[tube fan]

I have not liked any Phonomena units I have heard. It seemed to smooth out all music, and reduced dynamics. I NEVER got the feeling that the musicians were in the room. I like the all tube Fosgate phono used with the Auditorum 23 tranny.

[paddler]

I have not liked any Phonomena units I have heard. It seemed to smooth out all music, and reduced dynamics. I NEVER got the feeling that the musicians were in the room. I like the all tube Fosgate phono used with the Auditorum 23 tranny.

a quick check of that showed a $2500 tag. If thats accurate, its above my budget, trying to stay @ $350-400. Was intent on either Jolida jd9 or black cube (used) based solely on reviews and ended up trying the Phonomena based on similiar reviews. Any expereience with how they would compare to the Phonomena or anything in that price range that will add the feel of live electric music that I prefer?

[JoeE SP9]

paddler: Take a look at Art Dudley's Listening column Number 73 on the Stereophile website. It's about LP equalization curves. It details the difference between the RIAA curve and those (yes there are many) used for 78 RPM shellac's.

[paddler]

thanks Joe for the read, that guy is very funny and though informative, over my head i guess in understanding the real differences. Kind of a moot point though. I am using the Phonomena thru the Onkyo as the tone controls help to me. I guess i prefer somewhat boosted treble over the plain Phonomena (btw, the 78 EQ is not active connecting this thru a line level input) i assume there are no issues with this signal path. Will try a Jolida jD-9 or black cube to replace all at some point. Very open to any other recs for phono/preamps that can be found for $400 or less.

[02audionoob]

The original Pro-Ject Tube Box can often be found on the used market for around $300 and is very nice for the price range.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/main/Project_Tube_Box_SE.jpg