B&W 805s vs. Von Schweikert VR1s

[bletchley]

Hi all-

Builiding off invaluable feedback I received from some of you, I have a simple quesion/face-off right now: do I buy B&W 805s or Von Schweikert VR1s?

I have a Bryston b60 integrated and a Rotel 1072 CD player. I will also be able to complement whatever speakers I get with an NHT subwoofer.

I listen to all sorts of music (everything from rock to to jazz to folk to hip-hop to electronica), but I don't listen to much classical, and I detest soft rock.

Due to the fiancee factor, these speakers (whatever they turn out to be) will actually be on a shelf... not stands (sigh).

I have auditioned the 805s, and love their sound-- am a bit concerned about the lack of a low-end, but don't know if that is inescapable with bookshelves. I am going to audition the VR-1s today, but the dealer doesn't carry Bryston so I guess I'll have to listen with different components.

Anyway, any and all advice on this little audio showdown would be appreciated. Obviously, I'd love to save the $$ with the VR-1s, but am more interested in getting something that I love.

Thanks, thanks, thanks.

[topspeed]

Have fun on the audition! Make sure you bring lots of tunes that you are familiar with (clean recordings while you're at it) and vary the styles. Remember, good speakers can play just about any genre well. Can you take your own Bryston with you? If not, just make sure the VR1's are connected to a decent amp, not a receiver of some sort. Krell, Adcom, or Musical Fidelity lean towards the same sound as Bryston. Don't forget, the room will have a tremendous effect as well.

Good luck and have fun!

[bletchley]

How does a Creek compare to Bryston?

[topspeed]

I haven't heard Creek yet, sorry. I'm trying to figure that one out myself for my office system. From what others here have told me they lean toward the warmer side of neutral, which wouldn't be my definition for Bryston.

[PhD Kid]

Make sure you check out the Onix referenece 1's, a much better all around speaker. They have been compared to both of those you mention and even the 805 signatures, and compare much better in the highs and bass extension, not to mention imaging and detail. You can check out the speaker and the reivews on AV123.com. D0 a search on the message board section for the comparison reviews. You won't be sorry!

[topspeed]

Make sure you check out the Onix referenece 1's, a much better all around speaker. They have been compared to both of those you mention and even the 805 signatures, and compare much better in the highs and bass extension, not to mention imaging and detail. You can check out the speaker and the reivews on AV123.com. D0 a search on the message board section for the comparison reviews. You won't be sorry!

No offense Kid, but you're starting to sound like a shill.

[brigrizzme]

Dunlavy beat both

[brigrizzme]

No offense Kid, but you're starting to sound like a shill.

PHD kid has not listened to many speakers. hence the PHD

[nusiclover]

not sure what a "shill" is,
but, one thing for sure is that the 805's are a grand more than the VR-1. is this really a fair comparison? just wondering cause you may want to compare the VR-1 to the 705 as well. Personally, i think the two companies are vastly different, one uses metal tweets the other silk, one is front ported, the other no ported, one is british, the other southern californian. I envy you, such a comparison will be fun! and dont forget to do a home-demo to make sure they work in your cabinets. Hey, we cant tell you which to get since they really are very different speakers.

[nusiclover]

and another thing:
are 805's great speakers? yes
are VR-1's great speakers? yes
i cant tell you which is best, but it sure will be cool when you tell us which are best! in other words, you cant go wrong with your choices, you can only go right! but, you tell us which are better, this will be far more important than me, Tops, RGA, et al telling you, the buyer, the one that will be listening to them everynight after work :) thats the funny thing about speaker decision, it really ends up being a backward question: "which speaker do you think is better?" turns out to really mean "i think these speakers are better"

[nusiclover]

darn, another consecutive post by yours truly ;)
since it hasnt been mentioned already: it is vital that you audition both speakers in the same room using the same electronics. this is extremely important. regardless of whether you can do a home-demo (obviously your best situation), it is vital not to compare two different speakers you have heard in two different rooms (dealers) with two different systems. actually, you might even be better off listening to both speakers at the same dealers room at the same time then listening to one at home today and the other a different day. this advice is especially useful if only one of the two dealers will let you take them home (in other words, just take such speakers to the less-flexible of the two dealers) all of this is of course mute if the same dealer carries both lines.

[dean_martin]

Please post your impressions of the VR-1s. I've heard the 602s (latest version), cdm1nts (predecessor to 705s) and the 805s from B&W, but no Von Schweikerts. I'm particularly interested in bass extension. I took a pair of cdm1nts home for a long weekend and although I enjoyed them with classical music they seemed thin with other genres. To me they just couldn't reproduce enough of a full sound compared to my less refined but apparently more balanced Acoustic Energy Aegis Ones. Due to lack of space and funds I could not add a sub which I thought was necessary with the B&Ws.

[PhD Kid]

Once again let me strongly encourage you to check out the Onix reference 1 monitor for 1,500. it is known for outdoing all the speakers mentioned thus far. Don't take my word for it, check out the message board on AV123.com. I have researched many speakers before settling on a pair and I chose the Onix Reference 2's, nothing under 5,000 thousand can compare!

[topspeed]

Please post your impressions of the VR-1s. I've heard the 602s (latest version), cdm1nts (predecessor to 705s) and the 805s from B&W, but no Von Schweikerts. I'm particularly interested in bass extension. I took a pair of cdm1nts home for a long weekend and although I enjoyed them with classical music they seemed thin with other genres. To me they just couldn't reproduce enough of a full sound compared to my less refined but apparently more balanced Acoustic Energy Aegis Ones. Due to lack of space and funds I could not add a sub which I thought was necessary with the B&Ws.

Hey Dean,

I have the pleasure of owning both the CDM 1NT and the VR1's so I thought I'd give you my impressions. Take it for what it's worth as we obviously have different rooms, rigs, etc.

The CDM's are terrific standmounts that absolutely excel with classical and acoustic oriented music, especially female vocals. As you probably noticed, they are very accurate, exceedingly fast, transparent, and their imaging is one of their fortes. I don't notice the "mid-band suck-out" that RGA's seems to, different ears and all that. You are correct in that they seem to roll off rather quickly at 55-60hz. From personal experience, let me note that the CDM line is very sensitive to amp selection. They sound merely adequate when driven by a receiver or lesser amp. To really make them musically involving you need to hook them up to a decent front end that pushes a fair amount of current. Now, the bass will come alive. As they dip to only a 4.6 ohm load, I'm unsure as to why they are so amp sensitive, I can only tell you that the difference when driven by a PS Audio HCA2 was dramatic, more so on the 7NT's that I use as my mains.

The VR1's are an entirely different ballgame alltogether. They weigh less than half the 1NT's but sound HUGE. Lush, room filling sound that forces the listener to be less analytical and just become lost in the music. They're toe tappers. They are as quick as the 1NT's but with a different upper octave presentation. Not better or worse, equally detailed, equally extended...just different. The first thing you'll notice is their off-axis response is uncanny. I've heard very few speaker that present such a large "sweet spot." They smoke the CDM's in this regard (and just about everything else that I've heard for that matter). The next thing that grabs you is their bass response. How Albert coaxed 40hz out of a speaker this small is a sonic wonder. There is far more energy and information in the lower octaves from the VR1's than any standmount I've heard under 2K, including JM Labs, Veritas, MA Gold, Dynes, Paradigm V3's, and of course B&W. DefTech's Power Monitors had more bottom end but their mids and tweets were a mess. The VSA's are a fun speaker to listen to. Even if you aren't in the market, I'd definitely recommend an audition just for giggles.

Thanks for all the info on the CA & NAD. I hope everything worked out on that one btw.

speedy

[topspeed]

Don't take my word for it, check out the message board on AV123.com. I have researched many speakers before settling on a pair and I chose the Onix Reference 2's, nothing under 5,000 thousand can compare!

Kid,

How about citing a source that isn't the direct retailer of Onix? It might hold a little more weight with a potential buyer. Getting rave reviews from AV123 is like talking to Phillip/Morris about the relative dangers of tobacco. I'm not saying the speakers aren't everything you claim them to be and I believe you when you state you're convinced they are the best sub $5k speaker. I'm merely suggesting a more unbiased source would give your argument more credibility.

Glad you enjoy your speaks.

[bletchley]

Hi everyone-

First of all, I want thank you all for writing in and giving your opinions. As a neophyte audiophile, the whole choosing process is a bit more nerve-wracking than fun-- and a diversity of opinions helps me think through things.

I am going to audition the VR-1s today. But a few things make me think that I might like them...

While my musical taste is varied, I still like music that rocks/raps a bit more than I read that the 805s are best suited for (from what I read, the 805s shine with classical/vocals-- music that I will likely live for in ten years but do not know at my still--relatively-- young age).

One of you referred to the VR-1s a cabernet. That's my favorite kind of wine, and I like sound that envelops me-- while I appreciate a great soundstage and careful delineation of the sound, I listen more to enjoy than I do to criticize the way a particular cd is mixed. When auditioning the 805s, I found that some songs that I had thought I really liked didn't sound quite as neat as I had remembered them. They sounded interesting, but not neat. More of an academic exercise than an exercise in pure enjoyment.

I also missed the bass in the 805s-- while I may have the opportunity to pair whatever I get with a sub, I think I'm learning that I like a rich sound. Not fake rich-- to the coloration of the music-- but something that is richer than it is bright (I think that's the term you experts use).

Plus, I am going to both getting married and buying a condo in the next year. I could use the extra $1,000-- as long as I don't feel that I am sacrificing sound.

So I plan on "disappearing" from work for a bit to take a listen. I look forward to discovering what I hear!

Thanks again.

[nusiclover]

let us know after! have fun, thats exactly what i experienced with the VR-1: they are fun to listen to. (i think this is the best word to describe them, whereas they might not have the most precise bass or the clearest of highs, they really blend the two together to offer up an entertaining moment of fun.)

[46minaudio]

Once again let me strongly encourage you to check out the Onix reference 1 monitor for 1,500. it is known for outdoing all the speakers mentioned thus far. Don't take my word for it, check out the message board on AV123.com. I have researched many speakers before settling on a pair and I chose the Onix Reference 2's, nothing under 5,000 thousand can compare!
Hey Kid here is 3 you missed...But maybe not this was posted on another forum.
t=7200&postdays=http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?0&postorder=asc&start=20


I agree with topspeed about owner owned forums.Also Speakers need to be compared side by side level matched before some hogwash statement like this..

I chose the Onix Reference 2's, nothing under 5,000 thousand can compare!

[bletchley]

Wellll...

I feel like I owe you all a wrap-up e-mail after your advice and ideas.

I listened to the VR-1s yesterday and... didn't love them as much as I would have thought.

I think they did go a bit lower than the 805s, but still didn't have the kind of bass response that I'm pretty sure I'll need a sub for.

I thought the VR-1s had a nice sound, and did indeed produce a bigger sound than you'd imagine from such a small speaker. But I felt (personal opinion, now, obviously), that the music muddled together a bit-- and also felt kind of far away. I don't have the exact words to describe it, but the VR-1s didn't give me the excitement that the 805s gave me with some types of music that I threw at them.

That said, I think my bass issue was a bit more pronounced with the 805s-- but I'm hoping that will be resolved with a sub.

For any of you considering the VR-1s, they are quite the deal. They retail at right around $1,000 for a pair, but I was offered them for $850-- without even suggesting that I get a discount. Plus, the dealer said that there were some he had that had a slight flaw with the wood-- although they were new (shipping issue, apparently)-- that could be had for even less than $850. Decibel Audio in Chicago, if you're interested.

So, all told, I'm fairly sure that I am going to throw financial caution to the wind and get the 805s. But I do appreciate all of your ideas and feedback. If I were a bit smarter with money, I would be a proud owner of the VR-1s. But, with my wedding six months off, I am going to take advantage of what will probably be my last completely independent act of financial irresponsibility.

[topspeed]

Now you know why there are so many different speaker manufacturers out there; everyone hears differently. If you still didn't find the level of bass you're looking for with the VR1's, my guess is that you may be simply searching for something that doesn't exist. Bookshelf speakers simply don't play the lower octaves. It's just physics, that's all.

The 805's are terrific speakers and I doubt anyone would argue with your choice. Their finishes are gorgeous and you might want to get some input from your finance' on this too. Future decorating and all...

Enjoy the music!

[dean_martin]

Hey Dean,

I have the pleasure of owning both the CDM 1NT and the VR1's so I thought I'd give you my impressions.
Thanks for all the info on the CA & NAD. I hope everything worked out on that one btw.

speedy I appreciate the insight. I was really enthralled with the CDM 1NTs' open, transparent and surprisingly smooth treble, but I was afraid I would have to upgrade everywhere else, e.g., power amp, to get their best. It's also possible that the pair I auditioned wasn't broken in. It seems logical to me that the kevlar mid-range/bass driver may need some serious workout before it loosens up and gets as low as it can.

I have my eyes on 2 speakers now - Soliloquy 5.0s and VSA VR-1s. I'm going to Chicago in June and will track down the VR-1s for an audition. I believe the original poster said he auditioned the VR-1s in Chicago. I think I can hear the Soliloquys in Atlanta.

BTW, we got the Azur 540A replacement for the CA A500 yesterday. Everything's A-OK so far. See my post in amps/preamps under yours.

[RGA]

I think I answered this post in the amp forum - but there is more to the ballgame than a frequency graph...who cares if a speaker can produce 40hz at low volume? WHat happens as we go up - does the sound get compressed...Standmountshave a much faster compression rate than floorstanding speakers - Ie: they get loud the bass dissapears and the sound is strained.

One of the big reasons I loved the Reference 3a MM De Capo was because it had a huge scale and front to back soundstage depth that was outstanding. Later I ran into the Audio Note K spe. Other metnion physics well both use an 8 inch driver.

The Audio Note AN E $2700US speaker with one lone 8 inch woofer produces DEEPER bass than $11,000US B&W N801 with a 15 inch woofer an 8 inch mid driver and a massive inverted Horn tweeter. The upgraded version of the E still uses the same box and same SIZE drivers...IMO there is no comparison the 801 is totally out of oits league. But you pay for gorgeous styling and a great advertising sheet listing fascinating technology.

If AN can get 17hz -6db from a SMALLER box and ONE 8inch woofer and ALSO get 94-98db sensitivity and present a FAR FAR FAR flatter impedence load then why does the B&W get 23hz -6db with the addition of a 15 inch woofer. Compensations abound for appearance? Marketing? And then you can't even run a good low powered tube amp with them. Certainly the N801 is a very good sounding speaker - but just because the company is well known and gets press doesn't mean much - after all Bose is the number one selling speaker maker in the world and they have NEVER made a good speaker - I doubt one could argue that they have ever made an even passable speaker.

Yes the Audio Notes are based of the original Snell models from the 1970s...but then Magnepan and Quad are still re-inventing the same basic speaker they sold 30 years ago as is the Sugden A21a still going strong. They're classics FOR A REASON.

If you need to come up with a totally new speaker every 4 years you're building an empire and chances are lousy speakers to maintain it.

This is not an attack on B&W at all because I loved mine and I stil like their speakers. But I've opened up and listened to products that don't advertise don't give a rats ass if anyone ever reviews ANYTHING they make - and they sure as hell are not going to pay for a review - alla wining and dining the reviewers.

I'm no better than the average Joe because I would have walked right by Audio Note because they don't look like anything...in fact they look like a dinosaur on design...wide baffle - not slim lines - no bevelled edges(What about standing waves??) and heaven freaking forbid they use PAPER Woofers - yes a good quality one from Vifa but Paper? And though the K is a rubber surround they usually use FOAM surrounds. Add to that a sealed box and acoustic suspension - they're out of the Acoustic Research stone-age days.

All the new stuff touts all the advances which is all nice and fine so why do they sound like nasal polite panzi-ass speakers with down right SHRILL high frequencies pretty anaemic bass and virtually no credible dynamics?

I'm actually sick and tired of hearing people say I like the detail of this or imaging of that. IMO, if you are listening to a piece of music ANY MUSIC the speaker Should:

1) Play all forms of music and home theater well. If a speaker cannot do it all it's a bad speaker PERIOD end of discussion.

2) if you're zoning on imaging and detail - chances are you're noticing something the SPEAKER is adding not extracting - it took me a decade perhaps to realize this and my four year search for a standmount that i could say for certain was better in every area of what I had. I did the same thing...Oh I like the N805 because it has a more accurate soundstage than my Wharfedales or Dynaudio a smoother top end or Gershman Acoustics X1 a relaxing presentation. All though lacked bass, dynamics or some other notable issue. Then I read all the press of the Paradigm Studio 100 the blue collar man's giant killer, well sadly Unless the giant was in a coma it sure as **** couldn't kill it.

If you're paying high dollar you should get something resembling music not just bass treble and imaging.

BTW you don't need to listen to Audio Note there are many others - Reference 3a, Quad(Though I personally am not a huge fan of electrostats or planars because they FAIL on my criteria number 1 above, - but in the end it's a taste issue.) The Classic Klipshhorn, certain Apogees, and proabably loads of others I don't have access to.

LISTEN to a LOT of stuff not just from what Stereophile touts. They are still just one guy listening to something in a room. Some of them are so bloody old they probably lost half their hearing to start with - no doubt the bright pieces of crap don't sozzle them(This does not apply to B&W because they're highs, to me, are not egregious...though some hate the tweeters).

[topspeed]

$11,000US B&W N801 with a 15 inch woofer an 8 inch mid driver and a massive inverted Horn tweeter.

Inverted horn tweeter? The Nautilus tube is there to absorb and diffuse the waves eminating from the back of the dome so they don't come back at the driver and muddle the sound. Think of waves bouncing back off the side of a pool. You are the only person I've seen refer to the Nautilus tweeter as a "horn tweeter." For a tweeter to be horn loaded, don't you think the horn should be at the front thereby directing and, in some ways amplifying, the sound ala Klipsch or Edgarhorns?

[RGA]

The tweeter is a metal dome with an inverted tube...I said horn by mistake because that's sort of what it looks like. I like the attempt from B&W using this system to fix the metal tweeters distortions. Nevertheless for the 805 price tag i have serious reservations compared to the competition I have heard.

[jwh]

Agreed, the onix is not in this league.