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dingus
05-11-2011, 10:55 AM
which is the better performer in terms of accuracy, or is it a moot point?

i'm considering adding a dedicated sub that can get down in the mid-20hz. my receiver should be able to drive a passive sub without problem, and if not i have some beefy power amps that can do the job without question. my ht rig is a music first system, so i prefer sound quality over quantity.

pixelthis
05-11-2011, 11:29 AM
which is the better performer in terms of accuracy, or is it a moot point?

i'm considering adding a dedicated sub that can get down in the mid-20hz. my receiver should be able to drive a passive sub without problem, and if not i have some beefy power amps that can do the job without question. my ht rig is a music first system, so i prefer sound quality over quantity.

Most subs are powered these days. THERES something called a "plate amp" on
the back, and most of these are quite good.
My sub came with a 600w amp, which died when a friend borrowed it, so I
canabalized another sub for its 130w amp, which works fine in my small room.
If you really want a power amp or something else to power a sub, you can buy a
kit and build your own, and power it anyway you want, or buy a sub and take the amp off of the back.
But it will give little if any improvement over the plate amp that comes with most subs,
just complicate the plumbing, is all.:1:

markw
05-11-2011, 11:48 AM
You're gonna have to figure on a low-pass filter (at least) somewhere in the mix.

GMichael
05-11-2011, 12:29 PM
Both can get you very nice results. I built a passive sub and mated it with a 4000 watt external amp. It works great. But I've also heard some very nice subs with the plate amps built in.
The build quality will make the bigger difference.

bfalls
05-11-2011, 12:30 PM
I would recommend powered over passive. I don't know of any receivers which have a powered output for a sub. Connecting a passive sub to a receiver would require connecting your mains via the sub's speaker level inputs, thus sharing the power from the main channels with the sub.

Having a powered sub would reduce the strain on the main channels and free up power for mid and high freq reproduction. Especially if you are considering a sub which can reproduce appreciable levels in the 20Hz-30Hz range which takes a low of power.

Most receiver can't even produce rated output with all channels driven. Adding a sub to the mix would reduce the available power to all channels that much more. Unless you have a flagship receiver weighing 45+lbs (due mostly likely to a larger transformer) and 120+W/ch go with a powered sub. If you're a bass guy who likes bass very low and very loud go with a good powered sub.

If you can't swing the cash for a good powered sub. You can still get decent bass with a lesser one and utilize corner placement. From what I've read, corner placement can increase perceived output by 6 - 9 db.

GMichael
05-11-2011, 12:56 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't drive the sub with your receiver's amp. You'll want another amp. Either a built in one or external will work.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-11-2011, 02:46 PM
I would recommend powered over passive. I don't know of any receivers which have a powered output for a sub. Connecting a passive sub to a receiver would require connecting your mains via the sub's speaker level inputs, thus sharing the power from the main channels with the sub.

Having a powered sub would reduce the strain on the main channels and free up power for mid and high freq reproduction. Especially if you are considering a sub which can reproduce appreciable levels in the 20Hz-30Hz range which takes a low of power.

Most receiver can't even produce rated output with all channels driven. Adding a sub to the mix would reduce the available power to all channels that much more. Unless you have a flagship receiver weighing 45+lbs (due mostly likely to a larger transformer) and 120+W/ch go with a powered sub. If you're a bass guy who likes bass very low and very loud go with a good powered sub.

If you can't swing the cash for a good powered sub. You can still get decent bass with a lesser one and utilize corner placement. From what I've read, corner placement can increase perceived output by 6 - 9 db.

B, this is not correct. You use the LFE output directly to an amp which amplifies the signal to the speakers. All of my H-PAS subs are passive, and that is how I hook them up

Processor's> LFE output > Audyssey sub EQ > amp to speaker.

I do not think either passive or active subs offer any advantage over the other. I use both types, and get great sound from both types. Calibration and room placement are more important than active or passive.

Poultrygeist
05-11-2011, 03:39 PM
I have an outdoor passive sub which is driven off the amp speaker taps ( speaker level connection ), The sub then passes the signal on to two sat speakers which run full range.

I'm building two 15 " H frame OB bass drivers which are passive in the sense that they are externally powered by a Dayton APA150 stereo amp which has it's own crossover control.

bfalls
05-11-2011, 04:12 PM
B, this is not correct. You use the LFE output directly to an amp which amplifies the signal to the speakers. All of my H-PAS subs are passive, and that is how I hook them up

Processor's> LFE output > Audyssey sub EQ > amp to speaker.

I do not think either passive or active subs offer any advantage over the other. I use both types, and get great sound from both types. Calibration and room placement are more important than active or passive.

My bad. I misread. I thought he wanted to go directly from his receiver. I use a similar config with my passive ACI Saturn compound sub, LFE out, Yamaha M-65 amp, sub with one system. Also to bi-amp my Legacy Focus' 3-12" woofers. UMC-1 LFE out, XPA-5, sub.

dingus
05-11-2011, 04:24 PM
the receiver is the Pioneer in my sig, a 7.1 x 130wpc @ 8 ohm, 160wpc @ 6 ohm. even if that wont do it i can use one of my Yamaha amps, B-2x (170wpc) or M-2 (210wpc). even so, i wouldnt be opposed to a powered sub.


Calibration and room placement are more important than active or passive.
thats good info. i've never used a separate sub before. i got used to having all the bass i could handle with the 4x12" woofers in a pair of AR9's. what about ported -vs- acoustic suspension?

harley .guy07
05-11-2011, 08:58 PM
There are plenty of subwoofers available that can fill a large room that cna go in your corner or otherwise. SVS is one I would recomend. also Hsu subwoofers are a good company from what I have read. You can build your own custom sub in your home it just takes the nohow in the driver selection,amp,and enclosure that you want to use. I once installed a trio of EV 18" subs with a QSC amplifier running 2 ohm with fan cooling in a guys basement and it was thunderous but he would turn them off for music which I don't blame him they were not meant for that anyway. My point is that the amount of bass you produce is not the quest it is how well and how detailed you can do it without disrupting the sonic flow from your main speakers and that they meat at grounds that you you cannot tell one from the other. That is the ultimate test of a sub, most cannot do it in that they put out something that gives them away like a sonic signature or a difference to the mains. Buts thats for music home theater is a different battle all together.

pixelthis
05-12-2011, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't drive the sub with your receiver's amp. You'll want another amp. Either a built in one or external will work.

THERES' nothing wrong with it, an amp is an amp.
BEFORE I replaced the plate amp on my sub, I used one of the spare channels
on my receiver to power my sub. WORKED fine, but you are correct in that it
is not the preferred way of doing things. A good patch in a pinch, tho.
ALSO, no reason you can't use an external amp to power a sub, just a waste of a decent amp, is all.
A PLATE AMP IS DESIGNED to drive a sub, and it just works a lot better.:1:

pixelthis
05-12-2011, 01:16 PM
the receiver is the Pioneer in my sig, a 7.1 x 130wpc @ 8 ohm, 160wpc @ 6 ohm. even if that wont do it i can use one of my Yamaha amps, B-2x (170wpc) or M-2 (210wpc). even so, i wouldnt be opposed to a powered sub.


thats good info. i've never used a separate sub before. i got used to having all the bass i could handle with the 4x12" woofers in a pair of AR9's. what about ported -vs- acoustic suspension?

A "PORTED" sub tends to produce a "huffing" sound as it pumps air in and out of its port, although this isn't a problem most of the time, but on a poorly designed sub it can
be a bother.
MAKING speakers is the last bastion of audios roots, which started out with kits to
build amps, etc. AND its fun, but mostly a waste of time, really.
A sub already built is just going to work a lot better. Only reason I messed with mine
is that I really love my sub, it is very musical, and besides, if you can fix something
that is a 1200$ item instead of chucking it, you do so.
Mine is either a clone or a copy of a BOB carver mini sub, don't think you could easily
replace it, not very cheaply, anyway.
AS FOR PORTED vs sealed enclosure, I prefer the sealed type, just easier to place,
IMHO.:1:

N. Abstentia
05-27-2011, 02:31 PM
Your receiver will never be able to power a sub properly. Get a powered sub, or an outboard amp if you get a passive sub.

dingus
05-28-2011, 12:09 PM
i just pulled the trigger on an M&K V-1b, 12" powered sub. its a sealed enclosure and seems to be integrating nicely into the system so far. still a little bit of tweaking left to do before i'm totally happy with it.

GMichael
05-28-2011, 01:05 PM
Next step is a BFD. For under $100 it's a huge addition to any sub.

dingus
05-28-2011, 02:34 PM
whats a BFD?

GMichael
05-28-2011, 06:20 PM
It's made to be a feedback destroyer to prevent feedback at live shows. But it turns out to be a great EQ for subwoofers as well.
Check this link for a better explanation.
http://bfdguide.ws/

dingus
05-28-2011, 07:59 PM
ah yes, thank you!

pixelthis
05-29-2011, 09:17 AM
Your receiver will never be able to power a sub properly. Get a powered sub, or an outboard amp if you get a passive sub.

AU CONTRAIR, an amp is an amp, and my receiver is (or was)
7.1 and my system 5.1. I RAN my sub off of one of the spare amps
for months, until another plate amp availed itself to me.
My receiver was 125wpc, and I didn't need nearly that much in
my small listening room, NEVER had a problem, and again, it is not the optimum way to go, I AGREE WITH YOU, but it is not bad
in a pinch.:1:

N. Abstentia
05-29-2011, 06:06 PM
Yeah I didn't say it couldn't be done...I just said it couldn't be done right!

pixelthis
05-30-2011, 04:20 PM
Yeah I didn't say it couldn't be done...I just said it couldn't be done right!

It can be done in a way that works, which is always "right"
even if sometimes not optimum.
IN ALL THE TIME I ran a sub like this I never had a problem.:1:

GMichael
05-31-2011, 05:14 AM
It can be done in a way that works, which is always "right"
even if sometimes not optimum.
IN ALL THE TIME I ran a sub like this I never had a problem.:1:

But the OP was asking which was better. Using the amp in your/his receiver is surely not the better choice, unless he has no choice.

pixelthis
05-31-2011, 11:27 AM
But the OP was asking which was better. Using the amp in your/his receiver is surely not the better choice, unless he has no choice.

By all rights this method should be like one of those tire fix
spray cans, because when a sub goes out its not always
convenient
HOWEVER days turned into months, and this "fix" worked fine
THE truth is that a sub is probably never going to need even
the paltry 125watts put out by my receiver channel . And levels,
etc were easy to adjust.
And this was a sub that came with a BASH 600w plate amp(its
now running on a 130w). It may go against instincts, but at the end of the day, an amp is really just an amp.
I know that the true power of a receiver is gaged by its power
supply, how many amps is available to be distributed to each
channel, and the power claims are usually about as optimistic
as TREASURY forecasts, but I REALLY NEVER HAD A PROBLEM.:1:

GMichael
05-31-2011, 11:40 AM
Would you rather drive cross country with a tire that has a can of fix-o-flat in it or on 4 new tires? Sure, you may never have a problem with that tire, but if you had a choice, which would you pick?

pixelthis
06-01-2011, 01:43 PM
Would you rather drive cross country with a tire that has a can of fix-o-flat in it or on 4 new tires? Sure, you may never have a problem with that tire, but if you had a choice, which would you pick?

Spoken like a true middle class person who only has to open a
checkbook to buy anything.
If you use a can of "fix flat" you can get that tire plugged for fifteen
bucks or less. QUITE often the price of four new tires is out of reach,
so its not even an issue.
As much as I ENJOY THIS HOBBY, there is always something
more pressing. In an age when gas for work is 160 a month,[I]plus[/I
the gas to get around, with groceries costing a small fortune,
if something is working I tend to not mess with it.
THERE are targets of opportunity, like 29 bucks for a hundred dollar tuner, an EMO AMP FOR 250 BUCKS(haven't seen it that
cheap again).
RUNNING my sub on a receiver channel worked fine, didn't bother
me at all, didn't hurt the sub, not the first time I have done it.
And if I had not had a plate amp fall into my lap, I would be probably still be set up that way.
BEING type two diabetic I need pills just to protect my kidneys.
Pills and test strips, hundreds of dollars a month, visits to the
doctor every three months. You can't get kidneys at RADIO
SHACK.
I DO HAVE a meager HT "budget" but you have to prioritize,
and if something works you don't mess with it.
I SEE where the non technical minded might be more nervous
than someone who built his own stereo for a class project once,
but it didn't bother me a bit.:1:

GMichael
06-01-2011, 04:33 PM
Spoken like a true middle class person who only has to open a
checkbook to buy anything.
If you use a can of "fix flat" you can get that tire plugged for fifteen
bucks or less. QUITE often the price of four new tires is out of reach,
so its not even an issue.
As much as I ENJOY THIS HOBBY, there is always something
more pressing. In an age when gas for work is 160 a month,[I]plus[/I
the gas to get around, with groceries costing a small fortune,
if something is working I tend to not mess with it.
THERE are targets of opportunity, like 29 bucks for a hundred dollar tuner, an EMO AMP FOR 250 BUCKS(haven't seen it that
cheap again).
RUNNING my sub on a receiver channel worked fine, didn't bother
me at all, didn't hurt the sub, not the first time I have done it.
And if I had not had a plate amp fall into my lap, I would be probably still be set up that way.
BEING type two diabetic I need pills just to protect my kidneys.
Pills and test strips, hundreds of dollars a month, visits to the
doctor every three months. You can't get kidneys at RADIO
SHACK.
I DO HAVE a meager HT "budget" but you have to prioritize,
and if something works you don't mess with it.
I SEE where the non technical minded might be more nervous
than someone who built his own stereo for a class project once,
but it didn't bother me a bit.:1:

Don't assume that my budget is any better than yours. The OP asked what was better, not what was cheapest.

By the way, I am also type two. I also spent the last 6 weeks in and out of hospitals for my kidneys. None of which has anything to do with the fact that a receiver amp should be the very LAST option taken unless you have no options.

As for non technical, I do have a degree in Science and worked 12 years in the T.J. Watson Research Center.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-02-2011, 10:46 AM
Don't assume that my budget is any better than yours. The OP asked what was better, not what was cheapest.

By the way, I am also type two. I also spent the last 6 weeks in and out of hospitals for my kidneys. None of which has anything to do with the fact that a receiver amp should be the very LAST option taken unless you have no options.

As for non technical, I do have a degree in Science and worked 12 years in the T.J. Watson Research Center.

I cannot believe he says you are non technical, but yet he makes this statement

THE truth is that a sub is probably never going to need even
the paltry 125watts put out by my receiver channel

Is this person out of his mind? Yep. In a VERY small room, 125 watts MIGHT be enough. In a larger room, no way in hell is that enough. The lower you go in bass frequencies, the more power you need. The larger the room, the more power you need. When you combine these two facts together, you need a lot of power so you don't end up over driving the amp - or even pushing the driver into compression.

In a small 12X15x10ft room I use a single H-PAS sub with a 300 watt amp. On several movies(The Haunted, War of the Worlds, and Saving Private Ryan comes to mind) the red lamp on the amp has lit up signaling that the amp is approaching its maximum power. This is with a 70db average dialog level which will produce 100db peaks at the maximum digital level of 0db. So you see, a 125 watt amp would be overloaded at that level easily.

GMichael
06-02-2011, 12:08 PM
I cannot believe he says you are non technical, but yet he makes this statement

THE truth is that a sub is probably never going to need even
the paltry 125watts put out by my receiver channel

Is this person out of his mind? Yep. In a VERY small room, 125 watts MIGHT be enough. In a larger room, no way in hell is that enough. The lower you go in bass frequencies, the more power you need. The larger the room, the more power you need. When you combine these two facts together, you need a lot of power so you don't end up over driving the amp - or even pushing the driver into compression.

In a small 12X15x10ft room I use a single H-PAS sub with a 300 watt amp. On several movies(The Haunted, War of the Worlds, and Saving Private Ryan comes to mind) the red lamp on the amp has lit up signaling that the amp is approaching its maximum power. This is with a 70db average dialog level which will produce 100db peaks at the maximum digital level of 0db. So you see, a 125 watt amp would be overloaded at that level easily.

I think he just says stuff like that to stir people up. I should have known better.

JoeE SP9
06-02-2011, 12:35 PM
Next step is a BFD. For under $100 it's a huge addition to any sub.

I just bought a Behringer DSP1124 for $99 from B&H Photo with free shipping. I ordered it Tuesday May 24 about 1PM. It arrived the next day via UPS.

It's a 12 band per channel parametric equalizer with a built in 24/46 ADC/DAC (DSP). I chose this over the the DEQ2496 which has 20 parametric bands per channel a 24/96 ADC/DAC (DSP) and is ~$60 more expensive. For my purposes 12 bands per channel are more than enough for a device that will never see a signal higher than 100Hz. Currently the DSP1124 is connected to the low pass out of my crossover and from there to the bridged Crown's that drive my subs.

Now that I have two 1U rack mount devices I pulled a Walnut Crown DC300 case I wasn't using out of the closet and bolted the DSP112 and my CX2310 (crossover) into it. They leave a 2U space open in the case. So, maybe I'll look around for a 2U amplifier for a center channel speaker that I've never gotten around to buying. The case is sitting on a black painted piece of spiked MDF between my front speakers. The amps for the speakers and subs are behind or next to their respective speakers.

To use a BFD properly you need a calibrated measurement microphone and REW (Room Equalization Wizzard). REW is available for free at www.hometheatershack.com (http://www.hometheatershack.com) . You have to become a member (free) to get it. Behringer and Parts Express have calibration microphones available for less than $100. Both need a microphone preamp that provides phantom power for the condenser microphone element. If you have a Rat Shack SLM analog or digital it will also work. HT Shack has the correction factors for all the Rat Shack SLM's analog and digital.

24/46 is not a slip of the finger. That's what it says in the manual.

GMichael
06-02-2011, 01:20 PM
I just bought a Behringer DSP1124 for $99 from B&H Photo with free shipping. I ordered it Tuesday May 24 about 1PM. It arrived the next day via UPS.

It's a 12 band per channel parametric equalizer with a built in 24/46 ADC/DAC (DSP). I chose this over the the DEQ2496 which has 20 parametric bands per channel a 24/96 ADC/DAC (DSP) and is ~$60 more expensive. For my purposes 12 bands per channel are more than enough for a device that will never see a signal higher than 100Hz. Currently the DSP1124 is connected to the low pass out of my crossover and from there to the bridged Crown's that drive my subs.

Now that I have two 1U rack mount devices I pulled a Walnut Crown DC300 case I wasn't using out of the closet and bolted the DSP112 and my CX2310 (crossover) into it. They leave a 2U space open in the case. So, maybe I'll look around for a 2U amplifier for a center channel speaker that I've never gotten around to buying. The case is sitting on a black painted piece of spiked MDF between my front speakers. The amps for the speakers and subs are behind or next to their respective speakers.

To use a BFD properly you need a calibrated measurement microphone and REW (Room Equalization Wizzard). REW is available for free at www.hometheatershack.com (http://www.hometheatershack.com) . You have to become a member (free) to get it. Behringer and Parts Express have calibration microphones available for less than $100. Both need a microphone preamp that provides phantom power for the condenser microphone element. If you have a Rat Shack SLM analog or digital it will also work. HT Shack has the correction factors for all the Rat Shack SLM's analog and digital.

24/46 is not a slip of the finger. That's what it says in the manual.

I'm only using 5 of the bands and probably could have gotten away with 3. I bought mine from a friend over at AH for $60. It was just sitting around not getting used at his house.
It did a great job of taming a peek I had at 50.
I have it connected to my LFE out and then on to an EP4000 amp (with the fan mod).
It can be set up manually if you have the patients. I didnít have a laptop at the time, but wifey has one now. It may be time for some more tweeking.

pixelthis
06-02-2011, 01:29 PM
Don't assume that my budget is any better than yours. The OP asked what was better, not what was cheapest.

By the way, I am also type two. I also spent the last 6 weeks in and out of hospitals for my kidneys. None of which has anything to do with the fact that a receiver amp should be the very LAST option taken unless you have no options.

As for non technical, I do have a degree in Science and worked 12 years in the T.J. Watson Research Center.

So you oughta know that it is no big deal.
AND that is not the "last" option, a clock radio is.:1:

GMichael
06-02-2011, 01:37 PM
So you oughta know that it is no big deal.
AND that is not the "last" option, a clock radio is.:1:

I don't think that a clock radio will make a very good sub amp, but go for it.
I have a baby monitor you could try if you like.

pixelthis
06-03-2011, 12:36 PM
I cannot believe he says you are non technical, but yet he makes this statement

THE truth is that a sub is probably never going to need even
the paltry 125watts put out by my receiver channel

Is this person out of his mind? Yep. In a VERY small room, 125 watts MIGHT be enough. In a larger room, no way in hell is that enough. The lower you go in bass frequencies, the more power you need. The larger the room, the more power you need. When you combine these two facts together, you need a lot of power so you don't end up over driving the amp - or even pushing the driver into compression.

In a small 12X15x10ft room I use a single H-PAS sub with a 300 watt amp. On several movies(The Haunted, War of the Worlds, and Saving Private Ryan comes to mind) the red lamp on the amp has lit up signaling that the amp is approaching its maximum power. This is with a 70db average dialog level which will produce 100db peaks at the maximum digital level of 0db. So you see, a 125 watt amp would be overloaded at that level easily.

ACTUALLY the lower the freq the less power is required.
THE REASON subs require so much power is some formula,
forgot its name, but you need 17 times the normal power
just to get the sound outta the box.
SO YOU have the natural hardheadedness of the deaf.
Explains a lot.
WHEN I had the 600w BASH plate amp it was nice, excepting
the few times the cops paid me a visit, but the current 130w
plate amp works fine in my limited environment.
My neighbors are certainly happier.:1:

pixelthis
06-03-2011, 12:39 PM
I don't think that a clock radio will make a very good sub amp, but go for it.
I have a baby monitor you could try if you like.


It takes four or five in parallel for those to work, and sleeping
with four single moms wasn't worth it.:1:

GMichael
06-03-2011, 12:44 PM
It takes four or five in parallel for those to work, and sleeping
with four single moms wasn't worth it.:1:

Sleeping? You were sleeping? That's not the way to do it.:nonod:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-03-2011, 01:41 PM
ACTUALLY the lower the freq the less power is required.
THE REASON subs require so much power is some formula,
forgot its name, but you need 17 times the normal power
just to get the sound outta the box.

Do you realize idiot you just contradicted yourself? The longer the acoustical wavelength, the more power it takes to get it in the room. They need more power because long wavelengths require a lot of power to push low frequencies through the air. That is why small bookshelf speakers can get away with 100 watts a channel, and most subwoofer require 200 watts at the minimum. And you know more than me? LOLOLOL


SO YOU have the natural hardheadedness of the deaf.
Explains a lot.
WHEN I had the 600w BASH plate amp it was nice, excepting
the few times the cops paid me a visit, but the current 130w
plate amp works fine in my limited environment.
My neighbors are certainly happier.:1:

Here are some links that point out what an idiot you are.

http://www.beoworld.org/article_view.asp?id=44

http://15subwoofer.info/2010/subwoofers-explained/what-makes-your-seat-shake-in-the-movie-theater-subwoofers-explained/

Note these words in the second link

Subwoofers require more power than the main speakers because they have to push more air, which explains why subwoofers frequently have their own power source.

So much for you less power statement. The more you say you know more than I do, the more stupid you look.

Woochifer
06-03-2011, 10:37 PM
I just bought a Behringer DSP1124 for $99 from B&H Photo with free shipping. I ordered it Tuesday May 24 about 1PM. It arrived the next day via UPS.

It's a 12 band per channel parametric equalizer with a built in 24/46 ADC/DAC (DSP). I chose this over the the DEQ2496 which has 20 parametric bands per channel a 24/96 ADC/DAC (DSP) and is ~$60 more expensive. For my purposes 12 bands per channel are more than enough for a device that will never see a signal higher than 100Hz. Currently the DSP1124 is connected to the low pass out of my crossover and from there to the bridged Crown's that drive my subs.

Now that I have two 1U rack mount devices I pulled a Walnut Crown DC300 case I wasn't using out of the closet and bolted the DSP112 and my CX2310 (crossover) into it. They leave a 2U space open in the case. So, maybe I'll look around for a 2U amplifier for a center channel speaker that I've never gotten around to buying. The case is sitting on a black painted piece of spiked MDF between my front speakers. The amps for the speakers and subs are behind or next to their respective speakers.

To use a BFD properly you need a calibrated measurement microphone and REW (Room Equalization Wizzard). REW is available for free at www.hometheatershack.com (http://www.hometheatershack.com) . You have to become a member (free) to get it. Behringer and Parts Express have calibration microphones available for less than $100. Both need a microphone preamp that provides phantom power for the condenser microphone element. If you have a Rat Shack SLM analog or digital it will also work. HT Shack has the correction factors for all the Rat Shack SLM's analog and digital.

24/46 is not a slip of the finger. That's what it says in the manual.

My BFD settings are based on manual measurement. The Home Theater Shack site still has the instructions posted on how to do the frequency measurements and set up the PEQ filters manually. They also had an Excel spreadsheet that graphs the before and after measurements, as well as the correction values for the Radio Shack analog SPL meter. If it's no longer on the Home Theater Shack site, let me know if you want me to e-mail it.

I tried using the REW application with my analog meter, and it identified three filters that I should apply. I wound up getting some bizarre sounding results, so I reverted back to my original settings (I currently use 9 EQ filters). A calibrated mic might give some better results.

GMichael
06-04-2011, 08:27 AM
My BFD settings are based on manual measurement. The Home Theater Shack site still has the instructions posted on how to do the frequency measurements and set up the PEQ filters manually. They also had an Excel spreadsheet that graphs the before and after measurements, as well as the correction values for the Radio Shack analog SPL meter. If it's no longer on the Home Theater Shack site, let me know if you want me to e-mail it.

I tried using the REW application with my analog meter, and it identified three filters that I should apply. I wound up getting some bizarre sounding results, so I reverted back to my original settings (I currently use 9 EQ filters). A calibrated mic might give some better results.

9?!

My my. Aren't you the master tweeker. How long did that take you to do manually?

Florian
06-06-2011, 01:25 AM
I dont meant to ruin your wonderfull and structured conversation but i have a set of four subwoofers. And they are both passive and active.One of them has the amplifier attached to the subwoofer frame and the other set has the amp detached from the subwoofer frame. Both work wonderful and both sets are using the "sealed acoustic suspension" enclousure. One set uses 2 Krell Reference 200 amplifiers and the other set uses a older JVC MD 3030 stereo block. I use a Velodyne SMS -1 to flatten the inroom response and because one set if subwoofers uses a high efficency Focal driver Ót makes no difference if you use the smaller 55lbs JVC or the 253lbs Krell References.

The most important topic was not even discussed in this thread, room acoustics and the integraton with the meain speakers. It does not matter if the amplifier is attached to the subwoofer or not....

Cheers

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-06-2011, 12:04 PM
The most important topic was not even discussed in this thread, room acoustics and the integraton with the meain speakers. It does not matter if the amplifier is attached to the subwoofer or not....

Cheers

I think you missed this comment on post #7

I do not think either passive or active subs offer any advantage over the other. I use both types, and get great sound from both types. Calibration and room placement are more important than active or passive.

GMichael
06-06-2011, 12:11 PM
I dont meant to ruin your wonderfull and structured conversation but i have a set of four subwoofers. And they are both passive and active.One of them has the amplifier attached to the subwoofer frame and the other set has the amp detached from the subwoofer frame. Both work wonderful and both sets are using the "sealed acoustic suspension" enclousure. One set uses 2 Krell Reference 200 amplifiers and the other set uses a older JVC MD 3030 stereo block. I use a Velodyne SMS -1 to flatten the inroom response and because one set if subwoofers uses a high efficency Focal driver Ót makes no difference if you use the smaller 55lbs JVC or the 253lbs Krell References.

The most important topic was not even discussed in this thread, room acoustics and the integraton with the meain speakers. It does not matter if the amplifier is attached to the subwoofer or not....

Cheers

You are right. The BFD should help, but we really didn't get into room acoustics. Just that either passive or active can work well.

Good to see you around Flo.

GMichael
06-06-2011, 12:12 PM
I think you missed this comment on post #7

I do not think either passive or active subs offer any advantage over the other. I use both types, and get great sound from both types. Calibration and room placement are more important than active or passive.

I guess that some of "us" did then. :lol:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-06-2011, 02:12 PM
I guess that some of "us" did then. :lol:

You missed it too?? (smacks GM on the nose with his Ipad2). Sorry GM, I gave up the morning paper for a Ipad2. I hope you can get your nose fixed!!

pixelthis
06-06-2011, 03:45 PM
SOME people on this site have too much time on their hands.
A SUB is not that difficult to set up.
AND if you don't like the fact that the higher the freq the more power it requires(notice fones keep going up in freq, NO COINKIDINK
that the higher the freq, the more power required.
You don't like rudimentary physics, don't yell at me, become
Amish.
AGAIN, there is some rule that states that it takes 17 times
the regular power to get low freqs outta a sub, can't remember it but will look for it.
MEANWHILE you might notice that tweeters break all of the time,
subs hardly ever, ever wonder why that is? AND WHY HIGHER
(more energetic) freqs are the ones that break glass.:1:

Florian
06-07-2011, 01:18 AM
Just out of curiosity because i was absent for so long (Thanks for the Welcome GM), is Pixelthis a troll with a massive post count?

Woochifer
06-07-2011, 06:40 AM
SOME people on this site have too much time on their hands.
A SUB is not that difficult to set up.

Easy to setup, but not as easy to set it up right. Obviously, you've never heard an EQ'd subwoofer before.


AND if you don't like the fact that the higher the freq the more power it requires(notice fones keep going up in freq, NO COINKIDINK

So, if that's the case, then why does NO biamped active monitor use a more powerful amp for the tweeter than the woofer? Gosh, maybe you should design your own active speakers, given that you know more than every other speaker manufacturer does.

Woochifer
06-07-2011, 06:52 AM
9?!

My my. Aren't you the master tweeker. How long did that take you to do manually?

Setting up 4 PEQ filters would address the most pressing room-induced problems with my sub, and I could probably live with that. But, the BFD allows for 12 channel adjustments, so why not take advantage of that, especially since the PEQ allows me to really target a specific frequency as widely or narrowly as I want? With 9 filters, I have the frequency curve close to flat all the way down to 25 Hz at my seated position. I've done some other experimenting with frequency curves, since the BFD allows you to store multiple profiles.

First time it took me about 90 minutes to do the initial measurement, calculate the filter settings, adjust the BFD settings, and then remeasure the output and make the final adjustments. I repeat the process any time I move the sub or make a major rearrangement to the room. Nowadays, I can compete the process in less than an hour.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-07-2011, 09:34 AM
Just out of curiosity because i was absent for so long (Thanks for the Welcome GM), is Pixelthis a troll with a massive post count?

Correction Flo, he is a OLD troll with a massive post count. And by the way, good to see ya around!

GMichael
06-07-2011, 10:03 AM
(GM gets up from his pool of blood and shoots a dirty look at the Big T. Then he turns to Flo.)

Hey Flo. Pixy just likes to stir things up to see who boils over first. He tends to spout off about things that he probably knows are wrong just to get a rise out of us. The Big T is usually the first to call BS.

(GM rubs the blood on his face off on Tís sleeve)
You get that round Mr. but you may want to grow eyes in the back of your head.

pixelthis
06-07-2011, 11:54 AM
I dont meant to ruin your wonderfull and structured conversation but i have a set of four subwoofers. And they are both passive and active.One of them has the amplifier attached to the subwoofer frame and the other set has the amp detached from the subwoofer frame. Both work wonderful and both sets are using the "sealed acoustic suspension" enclousure. One set uses 2 Krell Reference 200 amplifiers and the other set uses a older JVC MD 3030 stereo block. I use a Velodyne SMS -1 to flatten the inroom response and because one set if subwoofers uses a high efficency Focal driver Ót makes no difference if you use the smaller 55lbs JVC or the 253lbs Krell References.

The most important topic was not even discussed in this thread, room acoustics and the integraton with the meain speakers. It does not matter if the amplifier is attached to the subwoofer or not....

Cheers

Speaking of which, four subs would be difficult to get to play together( wave cancelling and all).
WHERE do you live, the ROMAN colluseam? :1:

Florian
06-07-2011, 04:14 PM
Thank you SirT :-)
(Flo turns to GM to bring out some long forgotten "MagicPixiDust" and sprinkels some over his head... waiting for a reaction)

Florian
06-07-2011, 04:17 PM
Speaking of which, four subs would be difficult to get to play together( wave cancelling and all).
WHERE do you live, the ROMAN colluseam? :1:

Not really, but i have multiple systems in multiple rooms :ihih:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-08-2011, 09:36 AM
Speaking of which, four subs would be difficult to get to play together( wave cancelling and all).
WHERE do you live, the ROMAN colluseam? :1:

Four subwoofers properly placed does not suffer from cancellations, and it also can take care of the room modes as well.

GMichael
06-08-2011, 09:51 AM
Thank you SirT :-)
(Flo turns to GM to bring out some long forgotten "MagicPixiDust" and sprinkels some over his head... waiting for a reaction)

OMG! Look at all the cool colors! The blues are so...so... BLUE.
The reds are red. The greens are green. Wow man. Where'd you get that stuff?

(GM looks at Sir T.) Wow man. Can you put a hat on or something. All that bright light is harshing my mellow.

Anyone else here feeling hungry?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-08-2011, 10:04 AM
OMG! Look at all the cool colors! The blues are so...so... BLUE.
The reds are red. The greens are green. Wow man. Where'd you get that stuff?

(GM looks at Sir T.) Wow man. Can you put a hat on or something. All that bright light is harshing my mellow.

Anyone else here feeling hungry?

Hey, hey, hey.....lay off the glowing dome. Those colors would be far less pleasing if the glow from my dome didn't enhance them. Show some love here mister. :aureola:

GMichael
06-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Hey, hey, hey.....lay off the glowing dome. Those colors would be far less pleasing if the glow from my dome didn't enhance them. Show some love here mister. :aureola:

Well, sense the bleeding has stopped, and that Pixy dust put me in a good mood, Iíll repeat something that I heard many years ago.

God only made just so many perfect heads. The rest, he put hair on to cover the defects.

But I still owe you a wack to the cranium.

pixelthis
06-08-2011, 12:59 PM
OMG! Look at all the cool colors! The blues are so...so... BLUE.
The reds are red. The greens are green. Wow man. Where'd you get that stuff?

(GM looks at Sir T.) Wow man. Can you put a hat on or something. All that bright light is harshing my mellow.

Anyone else here feeling hungry?

JUST the light reflecting off of talkys head.:1:

pixelthis
06-08-2011, 01:02 PM
Well, sense the bleeding has stopped, and that Pixy dust put me in a good mood, Iíll repeat something that I heard many years ago.

God only made just so many perfect heads. The rest, he put hair on to cover the defects.

But I still owe you a wack to the cranium.

You are way too "wack" allready.
If you really want a repeat of the JAPANESE earthquake look at WORFS latest thread on VIZIO, and my response.
THE GOOD GUYS are winning, and TALKY is gonna blow
all of his fuses(as usual).:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 12:45 PM
You are way too "wack" allready.
If you really want a repeat of the JAPANESE earthquake look at WORFS latest thread on VIZIO, and my response.
THE GOOD GUYS are winning, and TALKY is gonna blow
all of his fuses(as usual).:1:

There is no way I will blow even a single fuse over a person with a brain the size of a Tsetse fly. You are right, the good guys are wining. The ones that provide performance and quality over the ones that don't.

pixelthis
06-09-2011, 12:53 PM
There is no way I will blow even a single fuse over a person with a brain the size of a Tsetse fly. You are right, the good guys are wining. The ones that provide performance and quality over the ones that don't.

WE FINALLY agree on something, only my "good guys"
are not the corp goons that are your "good guys".
DON'T FRET Talky, CRT will come back someday, right after
the next dark age and rise out of barbarism.:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-09-2011, 01:03 PM
WE FINALLY agree on something, only my "good guys"
are not the corp goons that are your "good guys".
DON'T FRET Talky, CRT will come back someday, right after
the next dark age and rise out of barbarism.:1:

Since you represent the next dark age, looks like we are back to the future.

GMichael
06-09-2011, 01:33 PM
I like turtles. Are you a turtle?

Florian
06-09-2011, 01:54 PM
*Flo enters the room and sees GM alone in a corner smoking pixi dust and watching a wise man battle a man with his facebook friends tatooted to his arm. Sits down next to him to light one up as well, but uses the heatsinks of his amp instead of a lighter..... good show and reminisses about long forgotten times

GMichael
06-10-2011, 06:15 AM
*Flo enters the room and sees GM alone in a corner smoking pixi dust and watching a wise man battle a man with his facebook friends tatooted to his arm. Sits down next to him to light one up as well, but uses the heatsinks of his amp instead of a lighter..... good show and reminisses about long forgotten times

Hey Flo,

Would you like a beer? There are chips on the shelf over there. Just don't let my wife catch us.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Hey Flo,

Would you like a beer? There are chips on the shelf over there. Just don't let my wife catch us.

Hey, your not supposed to have that stuff......I am gonna rat you out!!!! :hand:

GMichael
06-10-2011, 10:45 AM
Hey, your not supposed to have that stuff......I am gonna rat you out!!!! :hand:

I'll just take a double dose of my meds and I'll be fine.

And you know what happens to rats.:19:

pixelthis
06-10-2011, 12:25 PM
I'll just take a double dose of my meds and I'll be fine.

And you know what happens to rats.:19:

ATTABOY, thats the kind of thinking that gives me an average 250
blood sugar reading!!!(that and Kirspy kreams).:1: