No relationship between price and quality in HiFi? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : No relationship between price and quality in HiFi?



Ajani
04-26-2011, 12:48 PM
Note: this is not the usual discussion about adding up the cost of parts in a product. That’s been beaten to death, resurrected and killed again way too many times… I’m approaching the pricing issue from a different angle:

My question has to do with the relative pricing of products in different markets. Take two DACs as an example:

Benchmark DAC1
&
Rega DAC

In the US both DACs sell for $1K and hence are direct competition for each other. There is already loads of talk about whether the new Rega DAC is better than the Benchmark (and any other $1K DACs).

On the other hand, In the UK, the Rega sells for 500GBP while the Benchmark goes for 950GBP. Thus they are not direct competition (they are in completely different price categories). The questions over there tend to be more how close does the Rega get to Benchmark level performance at half the price?

The reason for the differences in prices in the US versus UK is likely due to local duties and taxes. However, that does not explain the difference in perceived quality. Either the Benchmark should be regarded as poor value for money in the UK or the Rega should be seen as poor value in the US. Yet neither is the case. WHY?

In general US products sell for a lot more in the UK, relative to UK brands. Yet I see no evidence that the US products are seen as poor value compared to UK offerings… Also in the US, there is no evidence that UK products are seen as poor value compared to US offerings….

So based on these findings; I could take any decent speaker selling for $2K (PSB Imagine T for example), jack the price up to $4K and it would be competitive against $4K speakers. Since most of us claim that there are improvements in sound quality to be gained from spending more money, then shouldn’t it be obvious to consumers and reviewers that the Imagine T is out of its depth at $4K?

Just check out the relative prices and reviews for US and CDN products on UK sites such as What HiFi? & HiFi Choice. In addition to the Benchmark, you'll see rave reviews for Krell, Parasound Halo, Revel Performa, Totem, etc, despite being up against much higher levels of competition than they face in the US.

www.whathifi.com & www.techradar.com

(Note: Stereophile is reviewing the Rega this month, if I'm not mistaken, so I'll be anxious to see if they regard it as good value for money at $1K)...

Poultrygeist
04-26-2011, 02:21 PM
I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

Ajani
04-26-2011, 02:37 PM
I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

That's a totally different discusion... DIY has its own appeal... And issues... not everyone is either willing or able to assemble a DIY DAC...

02audionoob
04-26-2011, 03:51 PM
I've noticed in some circles the reputation of Goldring cartridges improved when they hiked their prices. The increases were far more significant in the US than in their UK prices. I don't believe that there's a direct relationship between price and quality, but I believe there's some relationship. Maybe Rega has more of a value reputation in the UK than in the US?

Much of pricing is obviously a matter of what the market will bear. Some people want to pay a little more. Is an Armani suit better quality than a Brooks Brothers?

Ajani
04-26-2011, 04:18 PM
I've noticed in some circles the reputation of Goldring cartridges improved when they hiked their prices. The increases were far more significant in the US than in their UK prices. I don't believe that there's a direct relationship between price and quality, but I believe there's some relationship. Maybe Rega has more of a value reputation in the UK than in the US?

Much of pricing is obviously a matter of what the market will bear. Some people want to pay a little more. Is an Armani suit better quality than a Brooks Brothers?

I suspect you may be on to the answer... I know there must be 'some' relationship... No matter how overpriced someone may think a Magico M5 is, unless you are insane, it is clear that the M5 most cost a lot more to produce than a Paradigm Atom...

However, I suspect much of it comes down to as you say 'what the market will bear'.

That is sad though, as it shows IMO that a lot of the differences we claim between products are really due to price bias and not audible differences....

cyh
04-26-2011, 05:19 PM
.....or that people tend to listen with their eyes?

RGA
04-26-2011, 05:43 PM
People get seduced by the notion of "import" - Mercedes isn't very good - but it's foreign and if you charge $70,000 for an unreliable piece of garbage that happens to go at high speeds people eat it up.

Also, it is not true in all cases that a reviews are not negatively swayed. Depends on what they compare. Bryston's integrated amp in their shootout got a mere 3 stars which is pretty terrible considering most everything gets 4 or 5. But in that particular test it was going up against a Sugden A21a. The Bryston over there cost more than the Sugden while in Canada it's pretty close to the same price. Either way the Sugden stomps it so it really doesn''t matter what the prices are but it is certainly bad value if you have to pay a few hundred pounds more.

You also have to factor in the ears. American reviewers who are used to the more in your face sound - may view the Brit sound as better simply because it has a different take on things - and people are a sucker for the British accent :21:

People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

Ajani
04-26-2011, 06:13 PM
People get seduced by the notion of "import" - Mercedes isn't very good - but it's foreign and if you charge $70,000 for an unreliable piece of garbage that happens to go at high speeds people eat it up.

Also, it is not true in all cases that a reviews are not negatively swayed. Depends on what they compare. Bryston's integrated amp in their shootout got a mere 3 stars which is pretty terrible considering most everything gets 4 or 5. But in that particular test it was going up against a Sugden A21a. The Bryston over there cost more than the Sugden while in Canada it's pretty close to the same price. Either way the Sugden stomps it so it really doesn''t matter what the prices are but it is certainly bad value if you have to pay a few hundred pounds more.

You also have to factor in the ears. American reviewers who are used to the more in your face sound - may view the Brit sound as better simply because it has a different take on things - and people are a sucker for the British accent :21:

People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

Paying premium just because its a foreign import is no better than buying because it is expensive... Either way, sound quality is not your priority...

As for the Bryston review you mention (HiFi Choice if I'm not mistaken); just about every brand gets at least one 3 star review from either HiFi Choice or What HiFi? Check out the Bryston reviews on What HiFi and you'll see a line of 4 and 5 star reviews despite some really high prices relative to the competition... So I don't see that one bad review of the Bryston as out of the ordinary compared to local (UK) brands...

Mr Peabody
04-26-2011, 06:18 PM
Ajani, you make a valid point.

I remember the NAD 545 CDP getting a rave review in a British magazine, when I auditioned it I didn't understand how it got the raves. Maybe it was cheaper in the UK.... I didn't think it was a bad machine just not the giant killer it was wrote up to be.

I don't really want to create a list as not to offend or get off topic but there are certainly brands that I find don't warrant the price. I guess we really have to learn to trust our own ears.

02audionoob
04-26-2011, 08:52 PM
I wouldn't know what the British would do, but I have a hard time believing Americans would pay more because a stereo component is imported. I think we'd pay more for American gear.

frenchmon
04-27-2011, 07:07 AM
I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

I disagree...The Bel Canto DAC 1.5, and 2.5 in my opinioni is worth the money they are asking...especially seeing they can be a stand alone DAC or DAC and preamp.

Florian
04-27-2011, 08:41 AM
I am pretty good at spending a lot of money on HIFI. Even tough i have told this story before, some might find it interesting. I once offered for testing purposes only my Apogee Grand speakers on the german audio market. I do not remember the exact prices but something like 50000€ and got absolutely no response. I pulled the ad and re listed for way over 150000€ and got 3 inquiries. Some people filter by the price, but those people are not interested in value. They see what they like and the price is secondary.

Cheers

pixelthis
04-27-2011, 12:12 PM
I am pretty good at spending a lot of money on HIFI. Even tough i have told this story before, some might find it interesting. I once offered for testing purposes only my Apogee Grand speakers on the german audio market. I do not remember the exact prices but something like 50000€ and got absolutely no response. I pulled the ad and re listed for way over 150000€ and got 3 inquiries. Some people filter by the price, but those people are not interested in value. They see what they like and the price is secondary.

Cheers
SAME thing on a smaller scale...
My country preacher granddad could sell anything to anybody.
WHEN BUSINESS got slow at the store he was working at, they would jack the prices up
and put everything on the sidewalk for a "sidewalk sale". Always worked.
And the value of higher priced electronics has always been problematic, because of
the law of diminishing returns.
BETWEEN , say a hundred bucks and a thousand, you get a rather large return,
a large improvement. BETWEEN a thousand and a hundred thousand the improvement is less. So high end electronics are usually gussied up to make up for the fact that
the "improvement" in performance is rather marginal.
Human nature works in reverse, of course. People see expensive gear and think that
it must be something special.
If you don't care about "status" the best bargain on earth is electronics selling for
around a grand, except speakers, which have rules of their own.
To get more performance, the cost will be higher and higher for less and less as you go
along. The law of diminishing returns, the most important and most ignored rule
in this hobby.:1:

TheHills44060
04-27-2011, 05:19 PM
Uh, dollar bills don't have ears...your head does. Buy what sounds good to your ears, simple as that. Who cares how much a piece of gear costs depending on where in the world it is sold? What does that have to do with the way it sounds? If you are constantly counting your precious pennies Ajani you'll never be satisfied.

Ajani
04-27-2011, 06:29 PM
Uh, dollar bills don't have ears...your head does. Buy what sounds good to your ears, simple as that. Who cares how much a piece of gear costs depending on where in the world it is sold? What does that have to do with the way it sounds? If you are constantly counting your precious pennies Ajani you'll never be satisfied.

I'd suggest reading the original post to understand what the discussion is about... It has nothing to do with counting pennies...

Ajani
04-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Ajani, you make a valid point.

I remember the NAD 545 CDP getting a rave review in a British magazine, when I auditioned it I didn't understand how it got the raves. Maybe it was cheaper in the UK.... I didn't think it was a bad machine just not the giant killer it was wrote up to be.

I don't really want to create a list as not to offend or get off topic but there are certainly brands that I find don't warrant the price. I guess we really have to learn to trust our own ears.

That's what I'd expect to happen given the price differences; audiophiles like yourself should be left scratching their heads and wondering why some products cost so much, when they don't deliver the level of performance of other similar products at the same price... Yet neither the pro nor consumer reviews show that people are noticing any lack of quality for the money...

If I attempted to sell a Honda Civic for the price of a BMW 3, I'd expect car experts (and even average consumers) to notice that there is a substantial difference in quality between the two... Yet in audio I could do the same thing and no one would notice... In fact many persons would rave about how great the Civic is, and argue at length about how much better it is than the BMW....

Ajani
04-27-2011, 06:52 PM
SAME thing on a smaller scale...
My country preacher granddad could sell anything to anybody.
WHEN BUSINESS got slow at the store he was working at, they would jack the prices up
and put everything on the sidewalk for a "sidewalk sale". Always worked.
And the value of higher priced electronics has always been problematic, because of
the law of diminishing returns.
BETWEEN , say a hundred bucks and a thousand, you get a rather large return,
a large improvement. BETWEEN a thousand and a hundred thousand the improvement is less. So high end electronics are usually gussied up to make up for the fact that
the "improvement" in performance is rather marginal.
Human nature works in reverse, of course. People see expensive gear and think that
it must be something special.
If you don't care about "status" the best bargain on earth is electronics selling for
around a grand, except speakers, which have rules of their own.
To get more performance, the cost will be higher and higher for less and less as you go
along. The law of diminishing returns, the most important and most ignored rule
in this hobby.:1:

To add to what you and Florian have said:

In Jamaica, we have a number of shops that sell electronics/clothes/jewelry. And no matter what price is listed on the item, you will be offered a massive discount by the sales rep... So they always try and hustle you into thinking you got a great deal because the item was priced at $200 and they sold you it for $150... Yet in reality, the item probably should have been priced at $130 to start...

RGA
04-27-2011, 08:55 PM
Paying premium just because its a foreign import is no better than buying because it is expensive... Either way, sound quality is not your priority...

As for the Bryston review you mention (HiFi Choice if I'm not mistaken); just about every brand gets at least one 3 star review from either HiFi Choice or What HiFi? Check out the Bryston reviews on What HiFi and you'll see a line of 4 and 5 star reviews despite some really high prices relative to the competition... So I don't see that one bad review of the Bryston as out of the ordinary compared to local (UK) brands...

What Hi-fi isn't Hi-fi Choice - be careful there. Their star system is often relative to what is in the test that particular issue. Something that gets a 5 star in one shootout might only get 4 in another. I find most of that dumb anyway since Sugden got 4 stars in What Hi-fo vs a Roksan that won their shootout even though they said the Sugden sounded the best. So they weight things heavily on things that don't relate to sound quality.

Hi Fi Choice listens level matched and blind. This isn't to say What Hi-Fi is worthless but it's not in the same class. Though Hi-Fi Choice has become a little more (too much so) like What Hi-Fi in recent years.

The problem with the Honda BMW analogy is that there are a LOT more things to consider in a car than audio - in audio it is the sound reproduction and that is pretty much the only consideration - maybe features and for some who have power pig speakers will be limited as to what they can purchase.

With a car - Some people buy for reliability and Honda beats the ever loving snot out of Mercedes and BMW. The Honda Fit is more reliable than ANY Mercedes in the last 20 years - even though you can pay 10 times the price. The fit is FAR better for the environment too - sucks way less gas. If you buy based on these criteria the Fit beats Mercedes and it's not close. If you can get your hands on Phil Ednonston's Lemon-Aid - sold at Chapters in Canada then you can see the results of why pretty much every BMW and Mercedes is not recommended. And even on safety it is surprising that neither make is all that great for the money.

Now if you are talking performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos then yeah the Fit loses but for the actual operation of a motor vehicle at legal posted speed limits then Honda stomps the Germans - and Hyundai and certain Kia models do an even better job in the reliability, safety departments over Honda and Toyota.

Scroll down to 10 biggest auto myths - number 2 http://www.lemonaidcars.com/forecasts.html#myths

Ajani
04-27-2011, 09:41 PM
What Hi-fi isn't Hi-fi Choice - be careful there. Their star system is often relative to what is in the test that particular issue. Something that gets a 5 star in one shootout might only get 4 in another. I find most of that dumb anyway since Sugden got 4 stars in What Hi-fo vs a Roksan that won their shootout even though they said the Sugden sounded the best. So they weight things heavily on things that don't relate to sound quality.

Hi Fi Choice listens level matched and blind. This isn't to say What Hi-Fi is worthless but it's not in the same class. Though Hi-Fi Choice has become a little more (too much so) like What Hi-Fi in recent years.

The problem with the Honda BMW analogy is that there are a LOT more things to consider in a car than audio - in audio it is the sound reproduction and that is pretty much the only consideration - maybe features and for some who have power pig speakers will be limited as to what they can purchase.

With a car - Some people buy for reliability and Honda beats the ever loving snot out of Mercedes and BMW. The Honda Fit is more reliable than ANY Mercedes in the last 20 years - even though you can pay 10 times the price. The fit is FAR better for the environment too - sucks way less gas. If you buy based on these criteria the Fit beats Mercedes and it's not close. If you can get your hands on Phil Ednonston's Lemon-Aid - sold at Chapters in Canada then you can see the results of why pretty much every BMW and Mercedes is not recommended. And even on safety it is surprising that neither make is all that great for the money.

Now if you are talking performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos then yeah the Fit loses but for the actual operation of a motor vehicle at legal posted speed limits then Honda stomps the Germans - and Hyundai and certain Kia models do an even better job in the reliability, safety departments over Honda and Toyota.

Scroll down to 10 biggest auto myths - number 2 http://www.lemonaidcars.com/forecasts.html#myths

I have no issue with your points about the reliability of Honda compared to BMW/Mercedes... Many luxury cars are unreliable crap... however, the point still remains that it should be obvious to anyone that a BMW 3 is a far more expensive car than a Honda Fit, based on "performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos"... Much the same way that in audio 2 things should suggest that a product is of lower value: sound quality and build quality... The most I've seen mentioned on a Krell review in the UK was that the aesthetics seemed sub-par for the price point, however they felt the sound quality was outstanding... Despite the amp going for about double it's US price (and competing with UK amps normally selling for double its price)...

Now if (as so many audiophiles and reviewers claim) the differences in sound quality between cheaper and more expensive products are substantial, then a product selling at double its MSRP should sound sub-par for that price point... So even if the build quality isn't a give away, that the product is overpriced, then the sound quality should be... If the sound quality isn't, then either persons are listening with their eyes (sighted bias) or the differences are so small, that they could easily be overlooked (diminishing returns according to some)...

Florian
04-27-2011, 10:38 PM
I cant confirm that, my Audi or my wife's Mercedes is much more reliable and comfortable then my parents Opel or our old Fiat Punto..... and safer too ;-)

Ajani
04-27-2011, 10:58 PM
I cant confirm that, my Audi or my wife's Mercedes is much more reliable and comfortable then my parents Opel or our old Fiat Punto..... and safer too ;-)

I know nothing about Opel or Fiat, but I would ask whether the Audi or Mercedes are more reliable than Honda or Toyota....

02audionoob
04-28-2011, 03:12 PM
It is common knowledge (and well-documented at that) that Honda cars are more "reliable" than Mercedes. If you forever tie yourself to that one criterion, you never get to drive a very nice car. The best cars have some innovative technology in them that sometimes requires repair.

Ajani
04-28-2011, 04:09 PM
It is common knowledge (and well-documented at that) that Honda cars are more "reliable" than Mercedes. If you forever tie yourself to that one criterion, you never get to drive a very nice car. The best cars have some innovative technology in them that sometimes requires repair.

Which is fine... As long as the persons buying the luxury car know the compromise they accept... I have no issue with someone choosing to buy a Mercedes over an Accord, but they should know that the Mercedes is not more reliable... Though it will better the Accord in a range of different categories...

RGA
04-28-2011, 05:26 PM
It is common knowledge (and well-documented at that) that Honda cars are more "reliable" than Mercedes. If you forever tie yourself to that one criterion, you never get to drive a very nice car. The best cars have some innovative technology in them that sometimes requires repair.

That's a fair point and I did note that. performance - sometimes that comes at the expense of needing more work - gee like tube amps and turntables - they need more work from the owner and they sound better :-)

RGA
04-28-2011, 05:33 PM
I have no issue with your points about the reliability of Honda compared to BMW/Mercedes... Many luxury cars are unreliable crap... however, the point still remains that it should be obvious to anyone that a BMW 3 is a far more expensive car than a Honda Fit, based on "performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos"... Much the same way that in audio 2 things should suggest that a product is of lower value: sound quality and build quality... The most I've seen mentioned on a Krell review in the UK was that the aesthetics seemed sub-par for the price point, however they felt the sound quality was outstanding... Despite the amp going for about double it's US price (and competing with UK amps normally selling for double its price)...

Now if (as so many audiophiles and reviewers claim) the differences in sound quality between cheaper and more expensive products are substantial, then a product selling at double its MSRP should sound sub-par for that price point... So even if the build quality isn't a give away, that the product is overpriced, then the sound quality should be... If the sound quality isn't, then either persons are listening with their eyes (sighted bias) or the differences are so small, that they could easily be overlooked (diminishing returns according to some)...

Ahh yes I get what you are saying here. The price in a different market doubles and they still like it against other products.

Do you have any tube amp examples. Solid State examples don't surprise me too much since I've long felt expensive Solid State is merely audio jewelry.

Ajani
04-28-2011, 06:13 PM
Ahh yes I get what you are saying here. The price in a different market doubles and they still like it against other products.

Do you have any tube amp examples. Solid State examples don't surprise me too much since I've long felt expensive Solid State is merely audio jewelry.

HiFi Choice currently has a test of tube integrated amps:

Triode Corporation TRV-88SE
Pure Sound A30
PrimaLuna Prologue Two
Icon Audio Stereo 60 Mk 3
Consonance Cyber-100 Signature
Cayin A55-T

The PrimaLuna got 4.5 stars and the rest got 4 stars... I don't know what price the UK brands in that test sell for in the US, but the Prima and Cayin sell for nearrly double their US prices....

bobsticks
04-28-2011, 06:23 PM
I'd suggest reading the original post to understand what the discussion is about... It has nothing to do with counting pennies...

Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.

Ajani
04-28-2011, 06:48 PM
Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.

In fact it gets even more complicated than that... Understanding the reason for the price increase is simple enough; duties/tariffs alone might explain that... Understanding how a Krell Integrated can be considered to be a good value for money when competing with $2.5K amps in the US, but also be considered a great value when competing against $5K amps in the UK is more complicated...

bobsticks
04-28-2011, 07:35 PM
It is common knowledge (and well-documented at that) that Honda cars are more "reliable" than Mercedes. If you forever tie yourself to that one criterion, you never get to drive a very nice car. The best cars have some innovative technology in them that sometimes requires repair.

Very strong perspective, sir...Greenies fo you.

I'm relatively sure that the folks from "Lemonwhatever" spent a lot of time in the E-Class.

bobsticks
04-28-2011, 07:37 PM
In fact it gets even more complicated than that... Understanding the reason for the price increase is simple enough; duties/tariffs alone might explain that... Understanding how a Krell Integrated can be considered to be a good value for money when competing with $2.5K amps in the US, but also be considered a great value when competing against $5K amps in the UK is more complicated...

Well, all Macro blather aside, my friend, at the end of the day something is really only worth what folks are willing to pay for it.

Mr Peabody
04-28-2011, 07:45 PM
Krell may not be the best example, especially depending on which other integrated you put it against at $5k. Some may not be fans of it's overall sound but there's no denying the Krell are pure powerhouses. The "wow" factor could sway some opinions.

Ajani
04-28-2011, 08:15 PM
Krell may not be the best example, especially depending on which other integrated you put it against at $5k. Some may not be fans of it's overall sound but there's no denying the Krell are pure powerhouses. The "wow" factor could sway some opinions.

Krell was just one example. Essentially the same thing happened with Parasound, Revel, Totem, PSB, Paradigm, Benchmark, PS Audio.... Sure they're all good brands... But so are the brands they are competing against...

Ajani
04-28-2011, 08:21 PM
Well, all Macro blather aside, my friend, at the end of the day something is really only worth what folks are willing to pay for it.

Certainly I agree with that... But all this just really shows how arbitrary pricing is and that the notion that we are paying more for better sound quality is often not even close to the truth... it implies that the persons who believe high end is mostly just expensive jewelery are closer to the truth than those who believe that real differences in sound quality exist...

bobsticks
04-29-2011, 04:41 AM
Certainly I agree with that... But all this just really shows how arbitrary pricing is and that the notion that we are paying more for better sound quality is often not even close to the truth... it implies that the persons who believe high end is mostly just expensive jewelery are closer to the truth than those who believe that real differences in sound quality exist...

Sort of but how could it be any different in a hobby that is overwhelmingly based on personal preferences?

It occurs to me as well that of the brands listed above all of them have a high level of name recognition and have received good press on these shores.

Ajani
04-29-2011, 09:38 AM
Sort of but how could it be any different in a hobby that is overwhelmingly based on personal preferences?

Personal preference explains why I might be a SET lover while you love megawatt Solid State amps... But it's a much less satisfying explanation for why I'd regard one SET amp as only a good $1K amp, yet if it was priced at $2K I'd regard it as a good $2K amp... Here's the thing: in the audio press and in user forums like this: someone shopping for a $3K SET Amp would dismiss any $1K amps as being inferior... Now if that same 'inferior' amp was priced at $3K, he should be able to pick up on the fact that it is a lower quality SET amp compared to other SET amps at $3K... If not, then it's not about personal "sonic" preferences but merely about price bias...


It occurs to me as well that of the brands listed above all of them have a high level of name recognition and have received good press on these shores.

So have the brands they are competing against; such as Naim, Rega, Monitor Audio, B&W, KEF, etc....

tube fan
04-29-2011, 12:20 PM
I suspect you may be on to the answer... I know there must be 'some' relationship... No matter how overpriced someone may think a Magico M5 is, unless you are insane, it is clear that the M5 most cost a lot more to produce than a Paradigm Atom...

However, I suspect much of it comes down to as you say 'what the market will bear'.

That is sad though, as it shows IMO that a lot of the differences we claim between products are really due to price bias and not audible differences....


This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.

Ajani
04-29-2011, 12:34 PM
This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.

While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...

tube fan
04-29-2011, 08:38 PM
While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...

Except for speakers, it's very easy to do blind listening of audio components. You just need one other person to do the changes. Believe me, those who make definitive ratings of either wines or of audio gear sighted, often rate the exact same wines/audio components far differently when rating under blind conditions. For example, in a recent tasting (sighted) of wines, an critic of high alcoholic wines praised and bought a pinot noir that he thought was under 14 percent alcohol. Actually, the winemaker changed the labels of the two wines he brought to the tasting. The wine the critic praised was actually WAY over 14%! IMO, the two main reasons blind listening tests are not done in audio are (1) most reviewers would rate the same components quite differently blind vs sighted, and (2) many expensive components would be rated behind others costing much less, often far less.

Ajani
04-29-2011, 09:13 PM
Except for speakers, it's very easy to do blind listening of audio components. You just need one other person to do the changes. Believe me, those who make definitive ratings of either wines or of audio gear sighted, often rate the exact same wines/audio components far differently when rating under blind conditions. For example, in a recent tasting (sighted) of wines, an critic of high alcoholic wines praised and bought a pinot noir that he thought was under 14 percent alcohol. Actually, the winemaker changed the labels of the two wines he brought to the tasting. The wine the critic praised was actually WAY over 14%! IMO, the two main reasons blind listening tests are not done in audio are (1) most reviewers would rate the same components quite differently blind vs sighted, and (2) many expensive components would be rated behind others costing much less, often far less.

I suspect it has less to do with fear of the results and more to do with arrogance... The view that because I'm a trained listener means I'm not prone to sighted bias... Hence no need to do a blind test...

I don't think the issues in HiFi are due to corruption but rather to arrogance and incompetence... There really are no checks and balances in place to ensure that what I think I hear is what I actually hear...

tube fan
04-29-2011, 09:32 PM
I'll go with corruption AND arrogance AND incompetence!

Ajani
04-29-2011, 10:21 PM
I'll go with corruption AND arrogance AND incompetence!
:biggrin5:

I don't doubt there is corruption, but I don't think it's as widespread as people claim... I think most of what persons think is corruption is arrogance and incompetence...

Mr Peabody
04-30-2011, 05:30 AM
Ajani, you and Tube fan are saying you don't have the ability to evaluate gear without a blind test? Myself, I don't buy that. I can agree that some reviewers are biased by advertising dollars, discounts, friendships, etc. I do feel that as individuals if our real goal is sound quality, or what pleases us, we have the ability to hear differences and know what we like. I really hate to use myself as an example, however, when I was looking for a CDP for my second system by reputation and reviews the NAD should have been better than the Emotiva ERC-1. I didn't think so. But as Bobsticks pointed out, the whole thing is subjective, some one else may have preferred the stronger bass and darker presentation enough to have them buy the NAD over the ERC-1. I recently replaced a well known name brand speaker, Dynaudio, with Zu, a brand not many outside of us has heard of. With the CJ gear the Zu is excellent. If I was still running Krell the Dyn's would still be preferred. I know that because I recently hooked my Krell up to the Zu. As a side note the Zu were not bad at all with the Krell, the Dyn's had better synergy though.

So as I stated earlier you do have a point but let's keep it in perspective. And, I'm sure there are those out there who buy things for status rather than ability. For those of us who have our system's true potential at heart I know some are capable of judging what we prefer.

Ajani
04-30-2011, 06:20 AM
Ajani, you and Tube fan are saying you don't have the ability to evaluate gear without a blind test? Myself, I don't buy that. I can agree that some reviewers are biased by advertising dollars, discounts, friendships, etc. I do feel that as individuals if our real goal is sound quality, or what pleases us, we have the ability to hear differences and know what we like. I really hate to use myself as an example, however, when I was looking for a CDP for my second system by reputation and reviews the NAD should have been better than the Emotiva ERC-1. I didn't think so. But as Bobsticks pointed out, the whole thing is subjective, some one else may have preferred the stronger bass and darker presentation enough to have them buy the NAD over the ERC-1. I recently replaced a well known name brand speaker, Dynaudio, with Zu, a brand not many outside of us has heard of. With the CJ gear the Zu is excellent. If I was still running Krell the Dyn's would still be preferred. I know that because I recently hooked my Krell up to the Zu. As a side note the Zu were not bad at all with the Krell, the Dyn's had better synergy though.

So as I stated earlier you do have a point but let's keep it in perspective. And, I'm sure there are those out there who buy things for status rather than ability. For those of us who have our system's true potential at heart I know some are capable of judging what we prefer.

I don't think all differences are imagined or that everyone has to be blindfolded to be honest all the time... But I suspect that sighted bias affects us more than we think and seems to affect a lot of reviews as well... So even for persons like yourself, I think the occasional blind test would be a useful tool...

However, I am still more interested in reviewers and manufacturers doing proper DBT...

If a consumer buys a product based knowingly or even unknowingly on sighted bias, then so what? Its their money to do as they please... On the other hand if a reviewer recommends a product due to sighted bias, there is an issue...

Note: The presentations of NAD and Emotiva, Dynaudio and ZU and very different, so you would have to be extremely biased to prefer one over the other just on price... If the presentations were similar and the differences subtle, then sighted bias might affect you...

Mr Peabody
04-30-2011, 06:28 AM
If differences are subtle then there would be no need for change or price would tip the scale if looking for something new.

DBT would be fun. Maybe manufacturers are afraid to take the chance.

Ajani
04-30-2011, 06:46 AM
If differences are subtle then there would be no need for change or price would tip the scale if looking for something new.

DBT would be fun. Maybe manufacturers are afraid to take the chance.

The occasional DBT should be fun... I don't believe in the notion that I have to make every purchase using rigorous scientific testing... But once in a while just to check that the more subtle differences (and even some more obvious ones) are actually there...

I suspect that many manufacturers are indeed afraid of DBT... I see many brands criticize the DBT techniques used by brands like Harman (Revel) and yet they are not willing to do their own DBT to dispute Revel's findings...

tube fan
04-30-2011, 09:44 AM
Mr Peabody, I've seen hundreds of confident wine tasters humbled by blind tastings. The same thing would happen in audio blind listening IMO. I was at a recent blind listening test of MP3 vs high rez digital, and even I was shocked that over 80% of those attending (most very confident owners of very expensive equipment) thought the hi rez was MP3! Yes, both my wife (who helps in my own blind testing) and I correctly identified the MP3. I hate most digital, but the high rez actually sounded pretty good to me, while the MP3 was flat, and lacked detail. Not close IMO, but only a handful preferred the high rez!

Mr Peabody
04-30-2011, 10:32 AM
I find the mp3 vs hi-rez a bit hard to believe, especially if the listeners are experienced with both, as the compression to me is a dead give away. Sometimes to my ears mp3 sounds so strange from the original recording it's like the song was remixed.

RGA
04-30-2011, 11:01 AM
HiFi Choice currently has a test of tube integrated amps:

Triode Corporation TRV-88SE
Pure Sound A30
PrimaLuna Prologue Two
Icon Audio Stereo 60 Mk 3
Consonance Cyber-100 Signature
Cayin A55-T

The PrimaLuna got 4.5 stars and the rest got 4 stars... I don't know what price the UK brands in that test sell for in the US, but the Prima and Cayin sell for nearrly double their US prices....

The thing here is that 4 and 4.5 are pretty much the same rating. Note that when Hi-Fi Choice reviewed the Audio Note OTO it too got 4 stars even though again they said it "sounded the best" out of all the amps they ran it up against. But it also has very low power and no remote control. The amp is not something that most people can realistically own for the typical loudspeakers. But to me it loses a star for non audio related things.

The Triode amp sells for under $2,000 US I am pretty sure since it was played at CES 2010. I am not an uber fan of KT88 type tubes but it's probably the choice of guys who like SS sound a little more and can't give it up. I liked the amp for the price. Don't know what the Prima Luna goes for in the U.S but it is likely the better amp - though it's made in China and should not go for too much more. I believe it runs for 1200 pounds in England and about $1600 in the States.

The thing though is that Prima Luna is bigger than Tri so you can't really go by price completely. Both are imports to the British market so both would be jacked up. Tri may not be able to reduce their costs to the same level that Prima Luna can and therefore gives it a disadvantage. And one listener didn't like the Prima Luna all that much in their blind audition from what I read - and that same listener may have liked the Tri more.

The PureSound amp they say this
"Definitely something of a characterful performer, this amp will appeal most to listeners who like their music up close and direct. If you prefer something a little more laid-back, the A30′s presentation may very well strike you short of aggression and, as such, left one of our listeners nonplussed to the point of active dislike.

The others, however, were more inclined to see the positive side of things. Comments were particularly favourable in the classical music excerpts, which are both relatively ambient recordings.

The A30 really dug deep into the detail in each and, although there was rather less sense of space around the performers than most of the amps brought out, there was also more insight into the small details.

This forward presentation is accompanied by a degree of tonal imbalance; a tilt in favour of the upper midrange and treble. Bass is fair, but not seismically extended, while the very highest treble is nicely open and quite sweet.

Dynamics can sometimes seem a little abrupt, with climaxes appearing almost out of nowhere. Again, this is something that will probably appeal to some listeners as strongly as it repels others.

Then there’s the question of pace. In some ways, not surprisingly given the forward presentation, this is quite a pacey amp. That said, though, its timing is not always entirely convincing. It can sometimes sound a little rushed and the lack of very deep bass reduces the conviction of a driving bass/percussion riff.

Note that these comments all refer to triode mode: we tried ultralinear as well, but felt that it merely hardened the sound a little, without really adding anything constructive."

Sounds to me after reading each of the reviews that in virtually all of them at least one listener didn't like the sound of the unit. You just can't go by the star ratings. The fact that one amp is $600 and is rated over an amp at $900 doesn't really mean everyone will agree. From reading the reviews of these amps they all seemed to me to have certain strengths and the Cayin and Icon and Prima Luna and even the Consonance read pretty equal.

RGA
04-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Personal preference explains why I might be a SET lover while you love megawatt Solid State amps... But it's a much less satisfying explanation for why I'd regard one SET amp as only a good $1K amp, yet if it was priced at $2K I'd regard it as a good $2K amp... Here's the thing: in the audio press and in user forums like this: someone shopping for a $3K SET Amp would dismiss any $1K amps as being inferior... Now if that same 'inferior' amp was priced at $3K, he should be able to pick up on the fact that it is a lower quality SET amp compared to other SET amps at $3K... If not, then it's not about personal "sonic" preferences but merely about price bias...


I know several people who have trade in top of the line Cary SETs of Audio Note Kit ones. The Cary looks better and is considerably more expensive and arguably has just a big of a name. They went cheaper and a kit (kits are very likely viewed as worse). I have said often that I like Grant Fidelity far more than a lot more expensive big name products regardless of technology. I'd rather buy a Rita than a McIntosh at 4 times the price for example. And I'd rather buy their less expensive monoblocks and a good preamp over the Rita.

I keep it to one company line-up. A B&W 805 sounds better than a 705. You pay more you get more regardless of the market the 805 sounds better. Now if you compare across companies that will come down to preference of sound. Vandersteen has a sound - if you like that sound better you may like a Vandersteen at half the price of a B&W.

I like the AN E/Spe HE over the sound of the $50,000 Vandersteen that's because IMO the way the the AN E reproduces music is the way I think it is supposed to be reproduced so regardless of the price of the Vandersteen it isn't doing it anywhere near as correct. That said if Vanderteen's sound is your thing then it still represents value since it truly and clearly is superior to their lower end speakers. Just as spending $50k on an AN E makes sense to people like me who get the AN E sound. But comparing them in isolation against others - $50k could seem completely out of place against XYZ speaker you hold dear at $8k.

So start "within' the company line-ups first. As the price goes up the sound usually gets a lot better - that proves that the "more you pay the better the sound." At least this happens a lot of the time. The fact that a review like me may like a $3000 GF amp over an $8k McIntosh is somewhat interesting but chances are the $8k McIntosh sounds better than their $2k amp. So there is a house sound element here to consider.

Mr Peabody
04-30-2011, 11:40 AM
The "house sound" is a good point. We finally agree on something:) The house sound of certain amps is why I have so much trouble believing people can't hear differences in DBT. Although something like Krell vs Levinson should be detectable it would certainly be more of a challenge than Krell vs Mac. Many find CJ and ARC totally different, so why would that change if blind folded.

tube fan
04-30-2011, 04:06 PM
I find the mp3 vs hi-rez a bit hard to believe, especially if the listeners are experienced with both, as the compression to me is a dead give away. Sometimes to my ears mp3 sounds so strange from the original recording it's like the song was remixed.


Well, I was quite shocked as was my wife! To me, it was like comparing AM and FM radio.

RGA
05-01-2011, 08:46 AM
The "house sound" is a good point. We finally agree on something:) The house sound of certain amps is why I have so much trouble believing people can't hear differences in DBT. Although something like Krell vs Levinson should be detectable it would certainly be more of a challenge than Krell vs Mac. Many find CJ and ARC totally different, so why would that change if blind folded.

Because of the Munson effect. Blind listening level matched can be important due to the level - louder is simply deemed better more often than not. Very few people bother to adjust for volume. Audio Note Cd players tend to be 6db quieter than other players which "always" puts the other player whatever it is in advantageous position. Indeed, turntables are typically many decibels quieter than CD players as phono inputs are not as "loud."

I have problems with DBT - but at the same time if someone claims like you have that Krell Blows Rotel away - then if that is true then everyone should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be able to choose the Krell on any music at any volume 100% of the time. So level match the two amps, put a black light at the stereo end of the room. Play some full range difficult music and ask the person to choose which amp is the Krell. Surely if there was a staggering difference between the two amps one should be able to choose the Krell - and yet no one has been able to - not reviewers, musicians, audiophiles.

That doesn't necessarily mean there are no differences or that with time one could not pick them apart but it does certainly discount the notion that the "blows it away, and way better comments" are complete BS. If it was so great a difference someone anyone somewhere at least once would be able to tell them apart enough to be credible. And that's why I personally would not spend over a certain point on solid state amplification.

tube fan
05-01-2011, 09:27 AM
Don't assume that "experts" can correctly identify either wines or audio equipment blind. I have been to many blind tastings where a winemaker could not identify their own wine. Would you like to bet that producers of audio gear would always pick their units out from others (yes, matched for volume)?

At the 2010 CAS I got only a few demonstrators to turn up the volume to a realistic level. "Realistic", to me, is a similar level that you would hear live. The Audio Note room was an exception. One of the two AN demonstrators would play big band jazz, rock, trance, hip-hop, and classical at full realistic levels. In all my experience with digital, only the AN systems (here either a $5,500 or a $9,500 cd player) sounded realistic. What are they doing that others are not? Their cds did not sound bleached-out and two-dimensional.

Mr Peabody
05-01-2011, 04:34 PM
So you are saying there was a DBT of Krell vs Rotel? I'd like to see that. Or, is this just another fabrication from the place you get your statistics from?

Ajani
05-02-2011, 06:19 AM
The "house sound" is a good point. We finally agree on something:) The house sound of certain amps is why I have so much trouble believing people can't hear differences in DBT. Although something like Krell vs Levinson should be detectable it would certainly be more of a challenge than Krell vs Mac. Many find CJ and ARC totally different, so why would that change if blind folded.

As much as I can accept that persons prefer a certain house sound of some brands, there are still issues with that:

There are many brands with similar house sounds... So when one is selling for double the price of the other, chances are high you'll buy the cheaper option...

Also, even within the same brand, the question of value for money comes out... Take Revel for example; There is constant debate about whether someone should buy a Concerta F12 for $1,500 or spend $500 more to get the Performa M22 ($2,000)... However, in the UK, the F12 is priced at 900GBP while the M22 is 2,000GBP and "shock of shocks" the reviews over there (HiFi Choice & Home Cinema Choice) regard the M22 as being in a completely different category of sound from the MUCH cheaper F12...

So essentially, in the US where the price difference is small, the difference in sound quality is deemed to be small, yet in the UK where the price difference is large, the difference in sound quality is deemed to be large... That's price bias....

NOTE: I have no doubt that differences exist between components, but I believe that many of them are seriously over-exaggerated by audiophiles due to price bias.

pixelthis
05-04-2011, 12:32 PM
THE ONLY MAJOR diff is speakers.
There is a "difference" but its non-linear, takes a lot more to go from high end to higher
than from low end to high.
IF YOU CAN RECOGNIZE this simple fact, you can get outstanding gear for a modest price.
Unless status is important to you, and you need speakers made from a tree on
the endangered species list.:1:

YBArcam
05-15-2011, 07:30 PM
People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

It's funny, just two days before you wrote this I decided to dump my Rega Apollo SE for a Simaudio Moon CD.5 (which I picked up yesterday). My dealer had lent me a Rega DAC, the Simaudio CD-1, and the Simaudio i-1, just to try these pieces out in my system. The CD-1 had a much better balance in my set up, and I loved the clear, detailed, and open sound. It just seemed to breathe easier than the Rega sources did, which sound a bit bloated by comparison. For what it's worth, I liked the Apollo SE better than the DAC (the Oppo BDP-93 as transport probably played a part in this). The Apollo SE is a very nice player, don't get me wrong, but I felt the difference with the Moon was noticeable. However, I preferred my Exposure amp to the Simaudio i-1.

I've had Rega digital sources for some time now, assuming they were the best at their price points without really trying much else. I'm glad I decided to. I almost didn't bother trying the CD-1, as I wasn't crazy about the Simaudio system I had heard once before, and I thought their big clock radio like display was goofy. One quickly gets over that kind of thing though, and I'm glad I decided to have an open mind to hearing it in my own home.

Getting to the issue of price/quality, I do think there is a relation. While it's true what some here have said, that price isn't always indicative of quality, I do believe that you have to spend a certain amount to hit a certain quality level. There are always exceptions, but when you hit the $1,000 - $1,500 level for new components, I think you tend to get a certain level of quality that is tough to find at the sub-$1,000 mark. Certainly as far as build quality goes, but I think for sound quality too. So this is the level I've tried to shoot for - my amp and CDP cost about $1,300 each, and my speakers cost $900 (but $2K when new). My turntable is another story, but I plan to upgrade there shortly (Rega P3-24, VPI Scout, or dare I go for a used LP12?). I love the sound I'm getting now and I hope I'm off the upgrade wagon for a while.

Feanor
05-16-2011, 04:16 AM
Is there a correlation between price and quality in hi-fi? Yes.
Is it a strong correlation? Not really.
Does the law of diminishing returns apply to hi-fi? Sure as heck.
Are there bargains to be had that deliver ludicrous value? Yep! :20:A couple of examples from my recent experience:

Amplifier: Class D Audio SDS-258, <$600 assembled from a basic kit, here (http://classdaudio.com/products/class-d-amplifiers/sds-258.html)
DAC: Wolfson WM8740-based, from Hong Kong, $45, here (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Mini-WM8740-DIR9001-OP275-USB-Coxial-DAC-Decoder-/260778591048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb79d8348)Both these show signs of, let's call it "cheapness". :smile5: In one case it's a class D amp kit, in the other a naked PCB. But that does mean you don't get jaw-dropping sound for the money -- sound comparable to equipment 5x the price or more.

pixelthis
05-16-2011, 01:26 PM
Is there a correlation between price and quality in hi-fi? Yes.
Is it a strong correlation? Not really.
Does the law of diminishing returns apply to hi-fi? Sure as heck.
Are there bargains to be had that deliver ludicrous value? Yep! :20:A couple of examples from my recent experience:

Amplifier: Class D Audio SDS-258, <$600 assembled from a basic kit, here (http://classdaudio.com/products/class-d-amplifiers/sds-258.html)
DAC: Wolfson WM8740-based, from Hong Kong, $45, here (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Mini-WM8740-DIR9001-OP275-USB-Coxial-DAC-Decoder-/260778591048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb79d8348)Both these show signs of, let's call it "cheapness". :smile5: In one case it's a class D amp kit, in the other a naked PCB. But that does mean you don't get jaw-dropping sound for the money -- sound comparable to equipment 5x the price or more.


A fun time for the hobbyist? YEAH. But a huge bargain? HARDLY.
Class D, assembled from a kit, no case. Lot of cool kits on this site, tho.
BUT not quite proven class D, and your system looks like a science project.
THESE days you can get 125wpc for 250 bucks in a cool package.
FOR six hundred bucks you can get an Adcom. HARDLY a bargain.
My 125wpc 250 dollar "bargain", complete with real power supply, incl toroidal
transformer, below .
Of course a hand built amp from Europe somewhere is going to cost a small fortune,
and compared to that your kit is a great bargain.
But you don't compare it to that. YOU COMPARE it to cheap mass market stuff from CHINA, which is a HUGE bargain.
GREAT time to be into audio.:1: