Single bigger driver against several smaller drivers!

[dvjorge]

Hi guys,
Only to hear you about this one.
It is true the audio market is full of bookshelf and floorstanding using small drivers ( 6" or less ) Many brands use several of these drivers to be close to a decent bass response and power output. The fact is I have never hear any of these models that be able to compare to a single 10 " or 12 " single driver well built speaker. So, I think the rule bigger is better apply to loudspeakers !
What do you think about it ??
Thanks,
Jorge.

[bobsticks]

I took the time to compose a lengthy response and the AR server kicked out. I won't be repeating the exercise. However, a summary:

--single driver systems can have advantages over improperly designed multi-speaker cabinets
--crossover technology sound, implementation of said technology is not always
--I've heard some amazing line arrays

Ther are many, many more knowledgeable individuals on this site than I. Perhaps they'll chime in.

I have a theory that because of the synthetic nature of popular music and live reproduction thereof, often the best reproduction of such might be larger, single coherent drivers.

[dvjorge]

Thanks for your answer. I didn't say the things right when I opened the question. I mean not only a full range speaker against those floorstanding full of small drivers but a 3 way design using a 10" or 12" bass driver against 2 or 3 6.5" bass drivers. I have noticed how rich and deep the bass is when we have a good 10" or 12" speaker. I also have noticed less distortion at high volumen when the driver is bigger. I think it is more important the driver side than the box design.
Jorge

[Ajani]

I suspect that a major part of the reason for a duo or trio of 6" drivers rather than a 12" is for aesthetics rather than sound quality... The good old days of huge speakers seems to be gone, in favor of more WAF friendly designs...

[Mr Peabody]

I suspect it's one of those things where the answer lies in which drivers are being compared. For the most part Dynaudio uses 6" drivers and I'm waiting to hear the speaker that approaches their quality of bass. Large woofers do seem to have a certain character to them though, speaking in general terms.

[02audionoob]

The speakers in my primary system have three 4.5-inch bass drivers in each. Sensitivity is listed as 90 dB and range is 35 Hz to 30k Hz. Low-frequency waves are big, so it seems like bass drivers should be big. But I've been quite happy with the bass I can get from these speakers.

[Feanor]

Thanks for your answer. I didn't say the things right when I opened the question. I mean not only a full range speaker against those floorstanding full of small drivers but a 3 way design using a 10" or 12" bass driver against 2 or 3 6.5" bass drivers. I have noticed how rich and deep the bass is when we have a good 10" or 12" speaker. I also have noticed less distortion at high volumen when the driver is bigger. I think it is more important the driver side than the box design.
Jorge
Some thoughts.

A nominal 12" driver might have an effective diameter of 10" yielding a piston area of 78.5 sq.in.. A 6.5" driver might have an actual diameter of 5" (or less) yielding piston are of 19.6 sq.in. That is, you need 4 x 6.5" drivers to equal a 12" driver unless the excursion of the 6.5" drivers is greater.

So it's not so simple. Longer excursions gives more distortion than shorter excursion, but on the other hand, given the same excursion, smaller drivers might be more rigid and produce less distortion. Of course smaller drivers can generally reproduce higher frequencies than larger speakers, i.e. less distortion and wider dispersion.

Something I've noticed looking at the many available drivers is that the larger ones typically have lower resonance frequencies which generally means they can produce deeper bass than smaller drivers (regardless of the number of the latter that are used). Also the lower resonance, in combination with other parameters, often means that the larger speaker can, for a given low frequency extension, work in a closed box versus a ported box that would be necessary using multiple smaller drivers. Closed boxes in principle produce better transient responses than ported boxes.

Personally I would choose a large woofer, but I would definitely prefer a true 3-way system so that small mid/basses aren't struggling to do deep bass, and at the same time a large woofer isn't trying to do higher frequencies that it isn't really capable of.

[harley .guy07]

The real thing is it is up to what the quality of the drivers are. You compare a super high quality 6.5" driver like Dynaudio uses to a 12" driver used in a run of the mill speaker and its no contest. The Dynaudio will produce better bass that is more detailed and tighter in response every time. Yes there is a theory about speaker diameter and output but to me the smaller more dynamic drivers like Dynaudios have more detail and tightness to the bass than most 12" drivers. I use a 12" driver in my powered sub which I have custom built but it serves one purpose and that is home theater. I have tried it with music and while it does not sound bad it tends to slow down the bass momentum and hurt the detail of bass of my Dyns. If a floorstanding speaker is desinged properly 10 or 12" drivers can work rather well but in my opinion from what I have seen baring a few cases with Legacy speakers demo a big driver just does not have the detail of smaller drivers. Case in point my bass cabinet for my bass head, I have a cab with four 10" speakers and a horn and a 1 15" cab. I prefer the 4 by 10" cab any day to the 15" cab because of bass quality not quantity. there is a difference. I only use my 15" cab when playing live and I am using my 5 string bass which hits lower so I like the lower frequencies that the 15 will hit. The is the main thing with bigger drivers, if built and tuned right they can hit a lower frequency than smaller drivers but to me the detail suffers.

[Mash]

Multiple drivers reproducing the same frequency range (& program material) result in interference/cancellation patterns because the physical seperation of the redundant drivers results in varying distances of each driver to one's ear. These patterns will vary according to where your ears are at any time (!) w/r/t the speaker. Timing and clarity are not enhanced, either. Simpler is better.

Larger drivers can be just as quick as smaller drivers. This is a question of how stiff the cone is and how strong the driving motor is. Properly executed servo-feedback will provide the desired response and detail, but multiple drivers would really complicate the design of a proper servo-feedback system.

[RGA]

dvjorge

The way I look at any technical argument on any of these subjects is to do the listening first and ask about the design second and keep track of a "personal correlation" of results. I look at the speakers I have liked the most and then try and determine a correlation. Small standmounts regardless of who makes them share a certain quality - one that I find unacceptable for serious music reproduction at high quality - though certainly I like them when budget factors in and I still wish I kept my B&W 302s (though the Tannoys I bought at a pawn shop for $60 sound better than the 302s.

multi-way speakers using more than 2 drivers often sound like drivers in a box - some exceptions but to they're exceptions - most of them even the big boys like the B&W's D800s sound like drivers each presenting parts of their sound individually.

The ideal is something that sounds completely coherent - a single driver but that also has the full frequency range, that can be run off of the best front ends - low powered zero feedback single ended topology (not digital), designs. That means you either have a massive single driver speaker like the Teresonics or the Aporia Full range or you go to a two way that has impeccable cohesiveness and actually has the frequency range to handle pretty much all music. AN E (and to a large degree the AN J), Trenner and Freidl RA Box, most Tannoy speakers would be examples. You need low distortion, preferably non high excursion drivers. Big and fat may not look sexy but it sounds far better than slim and small virtually every single time. And in most cases - all the companies who make the small and thin have top of the line models and the top of the line models are usually always big and fat. So why not start there and dismiss the thing and small? B&W N801 big and fat. TOP JM Labs - big and fat, top Totem - big and Fat, top Harbeth big and fat, Magnepan big and fat, (all panels really - big and fat), top tannoy - big and fat, top Dynaudio - big and fat http://www.dynaudio.com/relaunch1/home_loudspeaker_systems/special_models/consequence_ultimate_edition.php and the small ones sound sluggish in the bass like many speakers like this - high excursion seems to slug the sound down and veil the critical midrange a whole lot. While a Tannoy sounds very open and very tactile and "live" in comparison. You pay a price when you pay for slim and sexy and no amount of company white papers and advertising and measurements they throw up on the net changes the fact.

Exceptions yes - but there is only so much skirting physics that is possible. Big sound needs a big speaker and they generally have a certain dynamic ease that IMO is the lifeblood of music and has the toe tapping factor. So even if they have frequency issues and or some other problems if it doesn't have the dynamic factor in then it doesn't matter if they have zero resonances 0% distortion and prefect polar frequency response and no phase issues etc. It has to have the jump factor. Something like the Trenner and Freidl RA Box is pretty much an end of the road loudspeaker if quality actually matters. But my word it is butt ugly. And ugly doesn't sell - even the ugly duckling was only popular once he became a swan.

Altec Lansing has reintroduced the Voice of the Theater for $4k and it's supposed to be better than the original given better parts. But it's horrendous to look at. Still it will blow the snot out of any puny ass little free standing speakers using 4-6 inch woofers and most of the "so-called" high end boutique stuff at 10 times the price.

I guess what I am saying is that when in doubt - the bigger the fatter and with the fewest amount of drivers the better it probably will sound. Certainly there are Marten speakers, Acoustic Zen or Ushers or Sony's flagship, Magico, JM Labs etc that use more drivers and are not fat but they're still big and they tend to be very expensive and are exceptions. And they're still big and not terribly thin. Thin takes up less floorspace and is easier to ship, move around and carry for dealers. It's about moving boxes and making money. Big fat Tannoys are a tough sell - apartment owners pretty much have to cross them off the list - then they delude themselves into thinking that a Totem Model One is better than a Westminster because of some off axis graph and a waterfall plot when 30 seconds of listening will have you rolling out of your chair laughing at the technobabblry and the absurd fervor at which people peddle it.

Tannoy among some of the others I mentioned provide the advantage of the two way speaker with a HUGE helping of full range balls, bass, and balance.

[bobsticks]

dvjorge
- then they delude themselves into thinking that a Totem Model One is better than a Westminster because of some off axis graph and a waterfall plot when 30 seconds of listening will have you rolling out of your chair laughing at the technobabblry and the absurd fervor at which people peddle it.


LOL...as usual, thanks RGA for the knowledge and the laugh...

[dvjorge]

Yes, RGA. This time I agree with you !

[Mr Peabody]

The name "Altec Lansing" has been sold so many times I wonder who is really behind selling The Voice of The Theater.

[dvjorge]

I don't believe the "new" Altec Lansing sounds better than the 1960/70 models. Anyway, those big horns and boxes were designed to theaters. Insted, Altec had models such as the 602 duplex that were extraordinary good for domestic use.
Jorge.

[RGA]

One reason I like Asian audiophiles is that while they live in far smaller dwellings they love their big ass loudspeakers. Take Silbatone - a South Korean company run by billionaire audiophiles who hire designers to make what they want made. And it's not some puny ass little piece of junk that is this week's class A rated or editor's choice hatchet job of a product.

No what do the billionaire audiophiles create - old school big ass speakers like the SGW-24 seen here http://silbatoneacoustics.com/munich2010.html The interesting thing is that Silbatone is only marginally interested in selling stuff - they are about designing and having people listen - maybe you want it but you better be wealthy.

Reminds me of - umm gee - a super charged Altec Lansing. Certainly the VOTT isn't the last word in hi-fi but it did a lot of things right and if you take what something does right and you do your best to fix that which is a weakness and you are prepared to throw money at it then you can create something amazing. But you can't do much with a puny ass speaker with a 4 inch woofer. You can refine and refine and refine a very good template. The AN E is an example of what I mean - you can hear a Kit version, you can hear the lower grade versions and you can compare the upper scale models - all use the same cabinets and mostly the same drivers - but as you refine you get a lot better sound.

Indeed, many other speakers have numerous modders who will take Magnepans and do all sorts of things, Totem basically modded the Model One to make a Signature model and "THE ONE" based on the same general speaker. There is a huge thing about replacing crossovers in B&Ws and cabling to improve them.

But some of the very interesting speakers and speakers that have tons of potential like some of the Altecs and even my Wharfedales I say gee if this speaker used a better midrange driver or got rid of the tone controls or simply came in a better grade cabinet - what could have been. But when it's made to a price point to gain market share there is only so much that can be done.

Guys from Silbatone have a passion based on some of the most dynamically impressive and brilliant transient set-ups going but didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say well the horn is bright so all horns suck. No they decided okay other than the brightness everything else is pretty good so let's keep the everything else and get a more balanced presentation. And brightness - probably because the horns tend to let you know your amp is high negative feedback variety and lets you know it - it's called resolution. My Audio Note speakers tell me real fast that I am running my Rotel gear with its 500 damping factor huge negative feedback versus a quality almost zero negative feedback amplifier like the OTO SE versus the really remarkable "I can't afford it" no feedback types. Don't blame the horns for passing along the gritty rubbish SS amps to the ears. Silbatone as you notice matches a nice "I can't afford it" tube amp to their speakers.