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swan24
02-27-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm looking to seriously bid on this nice vintage HK FM tube tuner, and look what some newbies are doing to the bidding, a full 7 days before it ends:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250779171116

Check out the bidding history...

I mean, the same guy with zero feedback is even bidding against himself with seven full days to go in the auction, driving up the price... Crazy...

I'm familiar with the guy offering the item... He has nice stuff for sale... He was offering a Dyna FM 3 tuner, immaculate... But a couple of noobs bid the darn thing up into the stratosphere early on... They should have a special edition of eBay where the truly stupid could bid their hearts out and spend many times what an item is worth... Only thing is, all the sellers would be listing on there... Jheesh... (m.)

blackraven
02-27-2011, 02:44 PM
Very nice tuner, just what I've been looking for!




NOT!:smile5:

It is a nice tuner though.

swan24
02-27-2011, 04:05 PM
Very nice tuner, just what I've been looking for!




NOT!:smile5:

It is a nice tuner though.


Oh, please...please... Take it... I can't stand this anymore... I've been around for far too long... I've sold stuff like this when it was new... I'm a dinosaur... An anachronism... I don't deserve to live...

Geoffcin
02-27-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm looking to seriously bid on this nice vintage HK FM tube tuner, and look what some newbies are doing to the bidding, a full 7 days before it ends:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250779171116

Check out the bidding history...

I mean, the same guy with zero feedback is even bidding against himself with seven full days to go in the auction, driving up the price... Crazy...

I'm familiar with the guy offering the item... He has nice stuff for sale... He was offering a Dyna FM 3 tuner, immaculate... But a couple of noobs bid the darn thing up into the stratosphere early on... They should have a special edition of eBay where the truly stupid could bid their hearts out and spend many times what an item is worth... Only thing is, all the sellers would be listing on there... Jheesh... (m.)

You cannot bid against yourself on Ebay. You can raise your bid maximum, or bid up against someone else one bid at a time, but not against yourself. The tuner is up to like $20 right now so I don't see what's got you so steamed. Were you expecting to get it for less?

swan24
02-27-2011, 06:13 PM
You cannot bid against yourself on Ebay. You can raise your bid maximum, or bid up against someone else one bid at a time, but not against yourself. The tuner is up to like $20 right now so I don't see what's got you so steamed. Were you expecting to get it for less?


Yes, right... And, no, I'm not expecting it for less... I am anticipating a premature bidding war by guys who do not do their homework as to what an item is really worth... Good for the seller, but not so good for audiophiles who want to find a deal, and know what the equipment's max value is...

As they say, it's worth whatever you are willing to pay... But if one just makes it an ego game, or does not bother to check values, it becomes a losing game... (m.)

dakatabg
02-27-2011, 06:36 PM
You know that these days the vintage stuff goes for a lot of money especially the tube stuff you are looking at!

Feanor
02-27-2011, 06:38 PM
Yes, right... And, no, I'm not expecting it for less... I am anticipating a premature bidding war by guys who do not do their homework as to what an item is really worth... Good for the seller, but not so good for audiophiles who want to find a deal, and know what the equipment's max value is...

As they say, it's worth whatever you are willing to pay... But if one just makes it an ego game, or does not bother to check values, it becomes a losing game... (m.)
I'm just not taking your point, Swan. What in you humble opinion is this F500X "really worth"? The current bid is $20.50: what are you afraid it might go up to?

In general tube analog tuners are highly sought-after and command fairly high prices. This Harmon Kardon model won't fetch a much, say, a McIntosh M78 (as HERE (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?misctunr&1303615921&/MCIntosh-MR-78-Classic-FM-Ster)), but it very likely sell for a good price -- if you're bargain hunting you'll probably be disappointed.

swan24
02-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Perhaps if you guys wanted the item, you might catch my drift... Also, I think part of my problem is that I was around and into audio when this stuff was new... I might have a different value system going here...

At any rate, I might be overreacting, but it shure would be nice if bidders held back until the last moment to bid on the item... Anyone hazard a guess how high it might go?...

I'd say about $189.00 > $220.00... Of course, that's according to my value system... (m.)

kelsci
02-27-2011, 08:13 PM
If it plays as good as it looks and you like FM stereo it would be a nice find. Someone years back gave me a Macintosh FM receiver. This had tubes for the FM section and transistors for the amplifier section. I tried to use the audio output of this reciver into another amplifier but that output was just too much pre-amplified voltage to use and there was no variable volume control on the unit. The FM section however picked up stations like no tomorrow and the perspective audio quality sounded like the best tube stuff I heard way back in the 60s. It produced such a different quality sound then transistorized units and confirmed to me that the vintage audio that I heard way back when from tube stuff was quite nice.

swan24
02-28-2011, 02:40 AM
If it plays as good as it looks and you like FM stereo it would be a nice find. Someone years back gave me a Macintosh FM receiver. This had tubes for the FM section and transistors for the amplifier section. I tried to use the audio output of this reciver into another amplifier but that output was just too much pre-amplified voltage to use and there was no variable volume control on the unit. The FM section however picked up stations like no tomorrow and the perspective audio quality sounded like the best tube stuff I heard way back in the 60s. It produced such a different quality sound then transistorized units and confirmed to me that the vintage audio that I heard way back when from tube stuff was quite nice.


Right... I look at vintage audio [now] not from a standpoint of the charm of the stuff, but what kind of sound per dollar it might deliver over current gear... Tube tuners are a classic example: They almost always deliver a sound that I feel is superior to solid state tuners per dollar spent... Now, as far as money outlay, if you buy on eBay, you can pretty much follow the rule of 2's... I mean, you buy a tuner like the one above, and you're pretty much going to double the cost to send it out, have it aligned, maybe a few mods/updates, cleaning, a few NOS tubes, whatever [I have a friend who can do all that, but he does charge me]... That's why it's only worth so much to me as is... No matter how much the previous owner talks it up as being plug and play... Or how good the thing looks...

Then into the fray jumps all manner of bidders... Some who might revere the item for it's sentimental value... Or looks... Or someone told him/her that it was the best thing since chopped liver, whatever... The Mac stuff is like that... I've sold [in the 70's] Mac set-ups that were then over 15 grand... And it was solid state stuff, and, well, let's just say that you could do better with the Japanese stuff at the time, or the more easily acquired, not-quite-vintage-yet tube gear that was showing up as trade-ins... (m.)

mikemorrow
02-28-2011, 03:37 AM
When I'm on Ebay I bid in my top dollar bid right away, and move on. If I win I win. If I lose, it went for more than I was willing to pay. I never wait till the last second to bid. Some ppl just nickle and dime to death. I guess they get off on the thrill of the auction. I just move on to the next idem. It might take me a year or two to get what I want at the price i'm willing to pay. But sooner or later I get it.

Feanor
02-28-2011, 04:46 AM
Perhaps if you guys wanted the item, you might catch my drift... Also, I think part of my problem is that I was around and into audio when this stuff was new... I might have a different value system going here...

At any rate, I might be overreacting, but it shure would be nice if bidders held back until the last moment to bid on the item... Anyone hazard a guess how high it might go?...

I'd say about $189.00 > $220.00... Of course, that's according to my value system... (m.)
Could it sell over $220? Definitely. It's a tube/analog tuner, after all. Would it be worth that money to me personally? No, but that's another matter. But it is to a lot of people -- and they aren't noobies, they are collectors and tuner aficionados.

I sold this sweet, analog but solid state Denon TU-500 for about $280 ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/DenonTU500-front.jpg

I replaced it with this quartz-tuned, digital Denon TU-767 because I listen at most two radio stations, and these not very often. I paid less than $80 for it and deem that a good value for an FM tuner ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/800-FullFront.jpg

Hyfi
02-28-2011, 05:42 AM
Like others have said, I don't see the problem.

But yeah, a whole $20.50 might be way too much for a nice tuner like this. Specially if ya have to lay out another whole $20 to spiff it up a bit.

Are you really serious? What would you have expected to pay, $2 or $5?

swan24
02-28-2011, 06:24 AM
Like others have said, I don't see the problem.

But yeah, a whole $20.50 might be way too much for a nice tuner like this. Specially if ya have to lay out another whole $20 to spiff it up a bit.

Are you really serious? What would you have expected to pay, $2 or $5?


Read some of my above (^)... 'Splains it pretty well... (m.)

GMichael
02-28-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm looking to seriously bid on this nice vintage HK FM tube tuner, and look what some newbies are doing to the bidding, a full 7 days before it ends:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250779171116

Check out the bidding history...

I mean, the same guy with zero feedback is even bidding against himself with seven full days to go in the auction, driving up the price... Crazy...

I'm familiar with the guy offering the item... He has nice stuff for sale... He was offering a Dyna FM 3 tuner, immaculate... But a couple of noobs bid the darn thing up into the stratosphere early on... They should have a special edition of eBay where the truly stupid could bid their hearts out and spend many times what an item is worth... Only thing is, all the sellers would be listing on there... Jheesh... (m.)

It looks like the one guy is using the function that lets him outbid any new bidders by 0.50, up to his set limit. Every time someone else enters a higher bid, all you see is the one guy upping his bid. Itís all automatic. Thatís why it looks like he is bidding against himself. Looks like a decent unit. Good luck with your bids. What price are you hoping to see it go for?

winston
02-28-2011, 09:22 AM
Read some of my above (^)... 'Splains it pretty well... (m.)
swan24, no disrespect "but do really understand how eBay works??;) its still the safest bidding place around,

now do you like the "tuner" and how much are you willing to pay for it" put your maximum bid amount down and walk away, that's what really matters, you can always increase you bid at anytime (and remember only yourself and eBay will be able to see and know that)

make sure that you pay with pay pal. that's important!!

swan24
02-28-2011, 09:30 AM
It looks like the one guy is using the function that lets him outbid any new bidders by 0.50, up to his set limit. Every time someone else enters a higher bid, all you see is the one guy upping his bid. Itís all automatic. Thatís why it looks like he is bidding against himself. Looks like a decent unit. Good luck with your bids. What price are you hoping to see it go for?

About $185.00... I would, as I said, have to just about double that figure to get the tuner in top working condition, by my best estimation, including things like new caps, tubes, alignment, etc.

bobsticks
02-28-2011, 09:30 AM
Read some of my above (^)... 'Splains it pretty well... (m.)

Actually, I know what yer sayin'...and from the perspective of the buyer I've used just that reaction when I've been particularly enamored with a product...kinda like betting high on two pair...throwin' down just enough at the onset of the auction to frustrate/ward off potential competition.

Does make it tough for bargain hunters though...

swan24
02-28-2011, 09:43 AM
swan24, no disrespect "but do really understand how eBay works??;) its still the safest bidding place around,

now do you like the "tuner" and how much are you willing to pay for it" put your maximum bid amount down and walk away, that's what really matters, you can always increase you bid at anytime (and remember only yourself and eBay will be able to see and know that)

make sure that you pay with pay pal. that's important!!

Putting your max bid down early doesn't strike me as being a very effective way of getting an item at a good price, IMHO... Esp. with people who do not do their homework on the item, and would just bid it up... The best way is to lay back, and bid your max within the last ten seconds or so... The last three if you think any of the other bidders is using a sniping program... I've manually outbid sniping programs before, but it takes a steady hand...

As far as understanding how eBay works, I'm pretty savvy... That's why I started this thread...

I guess the way I originally put it mislead people into thinking that I either wanted it real cheap, or that I didn't know what I was talking about... I was merely lamenting the fact that newbies on eBay are driving up prices on tube gear beyond what I feel is a fair price... The venue is turning into a place where you can no longer get a good deal, which, in my opinion, is what the whole exercise was about at the onset... (m.)

Hyfi
02-28-2011, 09:55 AM
Putting your max bid down early doesn't strike me as being a very effective way of getting an item at a good price, IMHO... Esp. with people who do not do their homework on the item, and would just bid it up... The best way is to lay back, and bid your max within the last ten seconds or so... The last three if you think any of the other bidders is using a sniping program... I've manually outbid sniping programs before, but it takes a steady hand...

As far as understanding how eBay works, I'm pretty savvy... That's why I started this thread...

I guess the way I originally put it mislead people into thinking that I either wanted it real cheap, or that I didn't know what I was talking about... I was merely lamenting the fact that newbies on eBay are driving up prices on tube gear beyond what I feel is a fair price... The venue is turning into a place where you can no longer get a good deal, which, in my opinion, is what the whole exercise was about at the onset... (m.)

Sorry but I am still lost here. If you expect that the unit will sell at or near $185 when it's all said and done, why do you care that early bids are at $20? What is the difference if it's at $20 now or hours before it goes upwards to $185?

When I bid on something, I don't even bother bidding til the last day as long as the price is still within range. I just can't get my head wrapped around how an early bid of $20 is skewing anything out of proportion or driving the price too high when you expect it to go up to $185.

Are you saying that these early bids of next to nothing are going to make the last bid way over $185, like maybe $205.50?

swan24
02-28-2011, 10:20 AM
Sorry but I am still lost here. If you expect that the unit will sell at or near $185 when it's all said and done, why do you care that early bids are at $20? What is the difference if it's at $20 now or hours before it goes upwards to $185?

When I bid on something, I don't even bother bidding til the last day as long as the price is still within range. I just can't get my head wrapped around how an early bid of $20 is skewing anything out of proportion or driving the price too high when you expect it to go up to $185.

Are you saying that these early bids of next to nothing are going to make the last bid way over $185, like maybe $205.50?


I think I created the false impression that the early bids torqued me off, when I should have said that I was anticipating eBay newbies without any bidding experience to bid the item up in a very unproductive way... That is, unproductive for the buyer, not the seller...

That is what happened a few days ago when I was looking at a Dyna FM 3 tuner from the same seller that went sky-high because of noobs bidding very unproductively just for the sake of bidding... It was like, " let me see how many times I can hit this button..."

The way I bid is to watch the item, and lay back until the last few seconds... If it goes up too high, then I forget it... If it's within reason, I wait until +3 seconds or so, then hit the final bid button... Before I get to this point, I clear my computer, restart it, reset my modem, etc., so nothing hangs up when I bid...

I think where I was really going here is that the noobs bidding is an antithesis to savvy bidding, and it makes it hard to get items for a fair price, not necessarily a steal... (m.)

Feanor
02-28-2011, 10:48 AM
I think I created the false impression that the early bids torqued me off, when I should have said that I was anticipating eBay newbies without any bidding experience to bid the item up in a very unproductive way... That is, unproductive for the buyer, not the seller...

That is what happened a few days ago when I was looking at a Dyna FM 3 tuner from the same seller that went sky-high because of noobs bidding very unproductively just for the sake of bidding... It was like, " let me see how many times I can hit this button..."

The way I bid is to watch the item, and lay back until the last few seconds... If it goes up too high, then I forget it... If it's within reason, I wait until +3 seconds or so, then hit the final bid button... Before I get to this point, I clear my computer, restart it, reset my modem, etc., so nothing hangs up when I bid...

I think where I was really going here is that the noobs bidding is an antithesis to savvy bidding, and it makes it hard to get items for a fair price, not necessarily a steal... (m.)
Are you familiar with "bid sniping"? I use this all the time. It permits you to enter the maximum you are willing to pay without the bid showing on eBay. Also, you can cancel or change your bid if you wish.

swan24
02-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Are you familiar with "bid sniping"? I use this all the time. It permits you to enter the maximum you are willing to pay without the bid showing on eBay. Also, you can cancel or change your bid if you wish.


Yes, familiar with this... It still shows your hand when inexperienced bidders try to see just where the max is, and go button crazy... Much better, IMHO, to lay back and wait...

But then someone invariably always goes trigger happy... I wish there was a way to contact these guys and say, " Hey... what the h**l are you doing?!..."

Luvin Da Blues
02-28-2011, 11:04 AM
... I was merely lamenting the fact that newbies on eBay are driving up prices on tube gear beyond what I feel is a fair price... (m.)

Ah, the crux of the issue. As far as I'm aware, people are allowed to spend their money the way they want.

Maybe the bidder puts more value on this tuner than you do.

Maybe they want it to complete a matched system.

Happens in real estate and vintage autos all the time. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

swan24
02-28-2011, 11:36 AM
Ah, the crux of the issue. As far as I'm aware, people are allowed to spend their money the way they want.

Maybe the bidder puts more value on this tuner than you do.

Maybe they want it to complete a matched system.

Happens in real estate and vintage autos all the time. Sounds like sour grapes to me.


Certainly so... But I doubt the fellows who set those early bids know what they're doing... They're working against themselves, and others who want to bid... Of course, this is all to the advantage of the seller, who I'm sure is slathering over the whole thing... But the downside for him is that a lot of sales to newbies go belly-up, and is why a lot of sellers notify bidders that if they have a feedback of less than 5 or so, they must contact seller... (m.)

Feanor
02-28-2011, 11:46 AM
Yes, familiar with this... It still shows your hand when inexperienced bidders try to see just where the max is, and go button crazy... Much better, IMHO, to lay back and wait...

But then someone invariably always goes trigger happy... I wish there was a way to contact these guys and say, " Hey... what the h**l are you doing?!..."
No, the point is that it does not show your hand. When you use a sniping service your bid is not placed until a few seconds before the bidding deadline, so nobody knows what you're bidding.

swan24
02-28-2011, 11:58 AM
No, the point is that it does not show your hand. When you use a sniping service your bid is not placed until a few seconds before the bidding deadline, so nobody knows what you're bidding.


This I did not know... At least within the eBay process... Tell me more... That would be ideal... (m.) ps: I know you can purchase proprietary sniping programs, but I didn't know eBay sponsored any... Free?... (m.)

mikemorrow
02-28-2011, 03:26 PM
Sniping is done all the time on ebay. I think that it is the norm now. I've lost many a bid by $0 .50 but heck they might have been willing to pay $100 more so I dont fret about it. Put in your top bid and stop playing the game. Heck put in $50 more than your what it is worth to you, dumb idea, but you might just win! and thats important to some people. ;)

swan24
02-28-2011, 04:10 PM
Sniping is done all the time on ebay. I think that it is the norm now. I've lost many a bid by $0 .50 but heck they might have been willing to pay $100 more so I dont fret about it. Put in your top bid and stop playing the game. Heck put in $50 more than your what it is worth to you, dumb idea, but you might just win! and thats important to some people. ;)


Oh, you mean sniping programs that you buy outside of eBay... Right... I have this strategy that, if you do it right, you can beat the snipers... I mean, it takes a second or so for the signal to get from anyone's computer, to the west coast, get processed by the eBay servers, etc. If you have a max bid plugged in and waiting, and your computer is primed and ready to go, and a fast connection coming in on a relatively open IP address, you can place, let's say, your $50.00 overbid at +3 seconds, or even +2 seconds, and the sniping program might not be able to do its thing fast enough... Or the person running the program might not have put in a high enough terminal bid... At any rate, I'm pretty sure I've bet the snipers on several occasions... (m.)

mikemorrow
03-01-2011, 05:53 AM
With all auctions it is the highest bidder that wins. Lets look at it this way, A guy has a snipe program, He knows he will get the last incomeing bid. Lets say he decides that the object of his dreams is worth $100.00 He programs that in.
Now there is this other guy who is dreaming of owning the same object. He has decided the he will pay $110 for it and places his highest bid with 6 days left.
now there is this girl that must have this too. She thinks that she will pay up to $120. But she wants to play the biding game and will place a bid with 3 seconds left at $5 higher that the bid showing.
The bid with 3 seconds left is at $92.50
GO!!!
The girl is very unhappy Her bid at 97.50 fell short.
The guy who paid for the snipe program thinks he got out sniped. Lost by .50
The guy who put in his highest bid 6 days ago wins. And got it with $9.50 to spare.
It always sells to the highest bidder. not the last bidder.

mlsstl
03-01-2011, 08:29 AM
Whether eBay or more traditional markets, there is an interesting psychology that experienced buyers who know the market for the goods that interest them are always annoyed by overly enthusiastic newcomers. These new buyers inevitably run up the going price which results in the old-timers grousing.

It doesn't really matter if one is talking classic stereo equipment, baseball cards or antique Chippendale chairs.

Of course, what annoys the experienced buyers who feel entitled to set pricing expectations, always delights the sellers.

swan24
03-01-2011, 08:52 AM
Whether eBay or more traditional markets, there is an interesting psychology that experienced buyers who know the market for the goods that interest them are always annoyed by overly enthusiastic newcomers. These new buyers inevitably run up the going price which results in the old-timers grousing.

It doesn't really matter if one is talking classic stereo equipment, baseball cards or antique Chippendale chairs.

Of course, what annoys the experienced buyers who feel entitled to set pricing expectations, always delights the sellers.


I guess I'm a dinosaur... An anachronism... I mean, I sold this 'old stuff' when it was new... So I'm forever tainted by my old value system... Still, this tube gear needs a lot of work to put it in order... And it's good stuff... But with the current trend to go back to tubes, I feel people go too far in the pricing... And the only respite from this madness used to be eBay... Well, no more... Might as well go on Audiogon... Because at least you know an audiophile owned the piece...

Know where I can buy any good Chippendale chairs cheap?... I think I'm going to sit this auction out... (m.)

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 09:49 AM
I'm trying to follow along here but how does an early bid of $20 on a unit that will max out at $200, mean anything at all? I can understand if you were talking about $100 bids in the opening hours but seriously, if you expect to pay $185 near the end, how does an early $20 bit effect anything?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand what the problem is.

swan24
03-01-2011, 10:20 AM
I'm trying to follow along here but how does an early bid of $20 on a unit that will max out at $200, mean anything at all? I can understand if you were talking about $100 bids in the opening hours but seriously, if you expect to pay $185 near the end, how does an early $20 bit effect anything?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand what the problem is.


I don't know what to say, other than to reads through the posts... It evolves... It's basically a lamentation on the overpricing of tube gear that newcomers to eBay bid up beyond its fair value... And no, it really hasn't happened yet on this particular item, but follow the bidding and we'll see where it goes... Thanks... (m.)

Feanor
03-01-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm trying to follow along here but how does an early bid of $20 on a unit that will max out at $200, mean anything at all? I can understand if you were talking about $100 bids in the opening hours but seriously, if you expect to pay $185 near the end, how does an early $20 bit effect anything?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand what the problem is.
Well I'll take a shot at it -- maybe I'm off track though.

Some sellers feel that a no- or very low-minium starting bid will attract bidders; they hope that a bidding frenzy will ensue where the price is bid up to a winning bid that's higher than it otherwise would have be. I think bidders today have become more sophisticated and aren't so easily trapped. So, IMO, an obviously very low eary bid is indeed pretty meaningless. However as towards the end of the auction I think there are still a lot of people who will increase their bids irrationally because they hate to loose by (apparently) just a few dollars.

It's possible for the seller to set any level of mimium bid, displayed to potential buyers, and/or a bid reserve, not displayed to buyers except a lower bid will show "reserve not met".

Personally when I'm selling I simply set a minium bid which the very least for which I'd be willing to sell the item -- nothing fancy about that, and unless the minimum is too high for the market it works as well as anything.

When I buy, I uses a bid sniping service and bid the maximum I'm willing to pay. So usually I set it and forget it. Although I have been know to increase, decrease, or cancel my snipe bid -- of course decreasing ar cancelling are not permitted on eBay itself.

mlsstl
03-01-2011, 10:34 AM
I'm trying to follow along here but how does an early bid of $20 on a unit that will max out at $200, mean anything at all? I can understand if you were talking about $100 bids in the opening hours but seriously, if you expect to pay $185 near the end, how does an early $20 bit effect anything?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand what the problem is.

I don't think there is a problem beyond people having differing opinions as to how things should be done. It is akin to a poker game where your opponents have a different strategy than you.

Sometimes an early bid is put out by an experienced buyer who is looking to pick up something cheap. Every now and then, for whatever reason, an auction item will not draw attention. Hence, a $200 item goes for the early $20 bid. A bidder who has this philosophy may lose on 95% of his bids, but it is a spectacular buy when he does win.

Another philosophy is that a steady rise in the price during the auction period may chase off those looking for a steal, thus reducing the number of competitors. This might increase the odds of getting the piece, or getting a slight deal.

The essential issue is that no one bidder has control over the bidding philosophy of any other bidder.A strategy that works brilliantly in one situation may fail in another. That's why each buyer needs to have a clear picture in their mind of how badly they want something and how much they are willing to pay. Combine that with the understanding that someone else may have their line in the sand a little further down the beach.

Feanor
03-01-2011, 10:39 AM
I don't know what to say, other than to reads through the posts... It evolves... It's basically a lamentation on the overpricing of tube gear that newcomers to eBay bid up beyond its fair value... And no, it really hasn't happened yet on this particular item, but follow the bidding and we'll see where it goes... Thanks... (m.)
Again, I think you're partly wrong. I don't thing (eBay) noobies are responsible for bidding specifically tube gear higher than any of the other thousands of things for sale.

The reason that antique tube gear is so expensive is that people want it. It seems a bit crazy to me too. E.g. in my observation a 1968 McIntosh C22 preamp will often sell for more than a used, current-production C220 -- this seems irrational to me.

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 10:43 AM
Well I'll take a shot at it -- maybe I'm off track though.

Some sellers feel that a no- or very low-minium starting bid will attract bidders; they hope that a bidding frenzy will ensue where the price is bid up to a winning bid that's higher than it otherwise would have be. I think bidders today have become more sophisticated and aren't so easily trapped. So, IMO, an obviously very low eary bid is indeed pretty meaningless. However as towards the end of the auction I think there are still a lot of people who will increase their bids irrationally because they hate to loose by (apparently) just a few dollars.

It's possible for the seller to set any level of mimium bid, displayed to potential buyers, and/or a bid reserve, not displayed to buyers except a lower bid will show "reserve not met".

Personally when I'm selling I simply set a minium bid which the very least for which I'd be willing to sell the item -- nothing fancy about that, and unless the minimum is too high for the market it works as well as anything.

When I buy, I uses a bid sniping service and bid the maximum I'm willing to pay. So usually I set it and forget it. Although I have been know to increase, decrease, or cancel my snipe bid -- of course decreasing ar cancelling are not permitted on eBay itself.

Thanks Bill. I do get all that. I just went back and looked at the item on ebay and it is still sitting at $20.50, same price it was at when this post was started. Just how is this effecting anything at all?

swan24
03-01-2011, 10:52 AM
As far as newbies, I guess it's time for a true story:

I was selling a small mini stereo system about 2 months back... An Onkyo CS 325 with all-in-one tuner /CD player/ amp... You know the type... Basically a bedroom system...

I had it listed for pick-up only... As a matter of fact, the listing showed 'for pick-up only' in three seperate places on the listing... I simply did not want to pack the thing up and go through that hassle...

So this guy with a feedback of (1) takes the opening bid, which I pegged at the lowest price I would want to part with it... Good start, I thought...

Anyway, I thought I'd send him a friendly reminder to note that the item was for pick-up only... Shortly after that, and without getting back to me at all, he retracts his bid...

OK... So I'm a little miffed, but, what the hey... People retract bids all the time... But I was curious, so I got into his bidding history... Well, you would not believe this, but he had retracted about a dozen bids in the previous week... But the real kicker was that he had bid on over 30 stereo mini systems in the same time-frame... It was all there in his history...

I alerted eBay, and asked them how anyone could retract 12 bids in a week without garnering eBay's attention... They looked into the matter, and found out the guy actually thought he could bid on any number of items, then when he saw something he thought was better, simply retract his previous bids en masse, and continue on from there...

He was basically perusing eBay, bidding, retracting, bidding again, bidding more, retracting and then leaving any number of sellers scratching their heads... eBay got back to me and said that they alerted him to the fact that that is not how eBay worked, and that he should not bid unless he was serious about buying and paying if he won...

Anyway, this guy never returned my friendly messages, and just ignored me, and kept bidding /retracting bids... Until eBay caught up with him... Oh, and the only other thing he purchased on eBay was a powdered energy drink... (m.)

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Anyway, this guy never returned my friendly messages, and just ignored me, and kept bidding /retracting bids... Until eBay caught up with him... Oh, and the only other thing he purchased on eBay was a powdered energy drink... (m.)

Thats a great little story.

What does it have to do with the unit you created this post about that is sitting at $20.50 and has not moved since you posted the link saying that the bid is being run up and out of proportion to the value of the used old gear?

swan24
03-01-2011, 11:01 AM
Again, I think you're partly wrong. I don't thing (eBay) noobies are responsible for bidding specifically tube gear higher than any of the other thousands of things for sale.

The reason that antique tube gear is so expensive is that people want it. It seems a bit crazy to me too. E.g. in my observation a 1968 McIntosh C22 preamp will often sell for more than a used, current-production C220 -- this seems irrational to me.


No, not specifically tube gear, but in this case, I could see the handwriting on the wall... Maybe it will all work out alright, I don't know... But these two guys-- one with a feedback of zero, and one with (1)-- are likely to bid irresponsibly on the item, and drive up the price... I think that was really the crux of why I came on to talk about it...

As far as these two guys wanting it, if they were audiophiles with any sense at all about pricing and value, they would not have kicked off the whole enterprise as they did... It's highly likely that both are clueless... about pricing, and about the gear they are trying to buy...

swan24
03-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Thats a great little story.

What does it have to do with the unit you created this post about that is sitting at $20.50 and has not moved since you posted the link saying that the bid is being run up and out of proportion to the value of the used old gear?


At this juncture, I think you're just trying to pin me down about an opening post that I might not have expressed in the best way possible, but then later explained fairly well...

The story above is just a sidebar... But somewhat relevant to the thread...

I would say that it generally falls under the heading of expanding on a topic... (m.)

GMichael
03-01-2011, 11:09 AM
Thats a great little story.

What does it have to do with the unit you created this post about that is sitting at $20.50 and has not moved since you posted the link saying that the bid is being run up and out of proportion to the value of the used old gear?
I think he started an intersting topic. Maybe just blowing off a little steem about a bidding strategy that looked stupid (or newbish) to him. It does seem to have brushed the cobwebs off a few people's post buttons around here.

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 11:15 AM
At this juncture, I think you're just trying to pin me down about an opening post that I might not have expressed in the best way possible, but then later explained fairly well...

The story above is just a sidebar... But somewhat relevant to the thread...

I would say that it generally falls under the heading of expanding on a topic... (m.)

Whatever. I don't think anything was explained too well. People bid on things they want. People buy things they want, sometimes with no concern of the cost. I don't look at prices in the supermarket, I walk in needing or wanting something and I buy it. My mother in law doesn't buy anything that is not on sale or has a coupon for. I can't tell you how many times she has asked me what I paid for a mundane item and my response is "I have no idea or care".

Older tube and other vintage gear is highly desirable because most of today's mass market gear is pure crap when compared to these older receivers costing the same or less. Even after you drop some dimes refurbing it to your desired state, they are still better than a lot of today's gear.

Why does it surprise you that people, newbies on ebay, or anyone else bids on items they want to own?

swan24
03-01-2011, 11:25 AM
Whatever. I don't think anything was explained too well. People bid on things they want. People buy things they want, sometimes with no concern of the cost. I don't look at prices in the supermarket, I walk in needing or wanting something and I buy it. My mother in law doesn't buy anything that is not on sale or has a coupon for. I can't tell you how many times she has asked me what I paid for a mundane item and my response is "I have no idea or care".

Older tube and other vintage gear is highly desirable because most of today's mass market gear is pure crap when compared to these older receivers costing the same or less. Even after you drop some dimes refurbing it to your desired state, they are still better than a lot of today's gear.

Why does it surprise you that people, newbies on ebay, or anyone else bids on items they want to own?

Well, it doesn't surprise me that they bid... But it's a constant surprise just how stupidly they do it... I mean, even if you weren't an eBay expert, common sense would tell you not to open a bidding war on an item you wanted... At least, not that particular way...

It could be any type of gear, really: A pair of skis, a cherished watch, a telletubby, whatever... (m.)

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 11:36 AM
Well, it doesn't surprise me that they bid... But it's a constant surprise just how stupidly they do it... I mean, even if you weren't an eBay expert, common sense would tell you not to open a bidding war on an item you wanted... At least, not that particular way...

It could be any type of gear, really: A pair of skis, a cherished watch, a telletubby, whatever... (m.)

Now I get it. You are expecting everyone who bids on ebay to think and bid exactly as you do.

So if these people you are calling stupid end up getting the pc of gear that they really want, and you don't get it for the price you think you should, just how stupid are they?

swan24
03-01-2011, 11:41 AM
Now I get it. You are expecting everyone who bids on ebay to think and bid exactly as you do...




That's basically a strawman argument, that is, an argument I really didn't make...

Hyfi
03-01-2011, 11:58 AM
That's basically a strawman argument, that is, an argument I really didn't make...

You should go back and re-read some of your responses. You have repeatedly called other bidders stupid because they do not think and bid as you do.

I'm out. I'll just sit back and see where this one goes, if anywhere at all.

mikemorrow
03-01-2011, 12:11 PM
The thing is, we all bid differantly. Like I said I bid once and on the first day. I bid my max. And forget it. If I get out bid thats fine. I'll find another one somewhere down the road. I guess I'm too laid back. LOL

GMichael
03-01-2011, 12:14 PM
The thing is, we all bid differantly. Like I said I bid once and on the first day. I bid my max. And forget it. If I get out bid thats fine. I'll find another one somewhere down the road. I guess I'm too laid back. LOL
That has worked for me. I put in what I feel is a fair price. If I win, I win. If I'm outbid, then I didn't want to pay a higher price anyhow. Could I bid with more stratagy? Sure, if I wanted to be bothered. I'm just not that into it.

swan24
03-01-2011, 12:20 PM
You should go back and re-read some of your responses. You have repeatedly called other bidders stupid because they do not think and bid as you do.

I'm out. I'll just sit back and see where this one goes, if anywhere at all.

I'd like to give others a chance to chime in as well... Taking a break...

Feanor
03-01-2011, 01:55 PM
No, not specifically tube gear, but in this case, I could see the handwriting on the wall... Maybe it will all work out alright, I don't know... But these two guys-- one with a feedback of zero, and one with (1)-- are likely to bid irresponsibly on the item, and drive up the price... I think that was really the crux of why I came on to talk about it...

As far as these two guys wanting it, if they were audiophiles with any sense at all about pricing and value, they would not have kicked off the whole enterprise as they did... It's highly likely that both are clueless... about pricing, and about the gear they are trying to buy...
Well I see your point here. Bidders can be have stupidly.

I mentioned above that I bought a used Denon TU-767 on eBay for <$80 and felt I got a pretty good deal. But here's the story told about this tuner at the Tuner Information site:



Denon TU-767 (1985, $350)
A digital tuner that can have either a black or silver face, the TU-767 tunes in increments of .1 MHz and has unusual muting/signal locking circuitry that is not intuitive. Still, it looks good, sounds great, and for DXing is on a par with the mid-line Kenwoods like the KT-7300 and KT-6500 (but not as good as the KT-7500 or KT-815/615), when modified. Stereophile considered the TU-767 to be one of the cleanest-sounding tuners, with the best stereo separation available at the time. The TU-767 usually sells for $40-80 on eBay, with a recent low of $11 in 8/09. In 6/04, two lunatics bid up a mint one from $58 to a bizarre $395, and then three hours later the "loser" bought another one for $110! [EF]

badhabit67
03-17-2011, 10:38 AM
OK,I'm new here,and still reading all the different posts. I think I understand the person that started this threads point. I Think.......
Let's see if I've got this right,he was complaining that a (0) feedback bidder was placing 6-7 bids in a row. Thus,driving the price up. ($20.50) That I understand. But..

This I don't understand. The poster of this thread said he thought the item would end,around $189-220. So it stayed way below his expected ending price, $101.00,below.
So,did the op win this item? Or did someone else,get a bargin basement price? That is if the item was worth the op's expected selling price. Were I'm confused is,the item sold for $88.00, and if the op didn't get it,why not,it stayed way below his own number's.

swan24
03-17-2011, 03:20 PM
OK,I'm new here,and still reading all the different posts. I think I understand the person that started this threads point. I Think.......
Let's see if I've got this right,he was complaining that a (0) feedback bidder was placing 6-7 bids in a row. Thus,driving the price up. ($20.50) That I understand. But..

This I don't understand. The poster of this thread said he thought the item would end,around $189-220. So it stayed way below his expected ending price, $101.00,below.
So,did the op win this item? Or did someone else,get a bargin basement price? That is if the item was worth the op's expected selling price. Were I'm confused is,the item sold for $88.00, and if the op didn't get it,why not,it stayed way below his own number's.


Checking the bidding history, looks like someone came out of the blue and took it for a good price, IMO... The original bidders seemed to drop out of the fray... So, in the end, this was not a particularly good example of my point... And my point was that inexperienced bidders are inexperienced buyers, and uneccesarily drive up the prices on eBay... (m.)

Geoffcin
03-17-2011, 03:28 PM
Checking the bidding history, looks like someone came out of the blue and took it for a good price, IMO... The original bidders seemed to drop out of the fray... So, in the end, this was not a particularly good example of my point... And my point was that inexperienced bidders are inexperienced buyers, and uneccesarily drive up the prices on eBay... (m.)

Actually this was your chosen example and your point was proven wrong. Or pointless as the case may be.

swan24
03-17-2011, 03:35 PM
Actually this was your chosen example and your point was proven wrong. Or pointless as the case may be.

On the whole, I'd say that my point is valid enough... Following the trends over time would illustrate this well enough... (m.)

luvtolisten
03-17-2011, 03:57 PM
I don't let other bids bother me. I just put in what it's worth to me. One time. If I win great! If get it lower,even better. I don't win, no big deal, it went for more than I was willing to pay anyway. To be honest, I think the days of great deals on ebay are fewer and fewer. Especially by the time you pay for usually overinflated shipping.

Geoffcin
03-17-2011, 03:59 PM
On the whole, I'd say that my point is valid enough... Following the trends over time would illustrate this well enough... (m.)

Your opinion is your own and not backed up by any factual data that you've provided. Your one example has proven your thesis wrong, but you refuse to accept that. You can can continue to believe in your phantom "trend", but I for one am not buying it one bit.

swan24
03-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Your opinion is your own and not backed up by any factual data that you've provided. Your one example has proven your thesis wrong, but you refuse to accept that. You can can continue to believe in your phantom "trend", but I for one am not buying it one bit.


How can one example prove anything right or wrong?... My experience on eBay over time would indicate that new bidders tend to bid frivilously, and often drive up the prices on eBay...

Also, a comment: I just noticed that you are the site moderator here... After a thread turns into a rather heated debate, isn't it your job to, well, moderate?... That is, not necessarily take sides?... (m.)

Geoffcin
03-17-2011, 05:01 PM
One example proves nothing, just as a "feeling" about a trend on ebay does.

One of my job as moderator is to make sure that threads don't get out of control. That I'm a moderator has nothing to do with me having the right to speak my mind on any subject I might have an opinion on. In that respect I have the same rights that you do.

swan24
03-17-2011, 05:19 PM
One example proves nothing, just as a "feeling" about a trend on ebay does.

One of my job as moderator is to make sure that threads don't get out of control. That I'm a moderator has nothing to do with me having the right to speak my mind on any subject I might have an opinion on. In that respect I have the same rights that you do.


I don't know, Geo... You seemed to come out of the gate pretty strong for a moderator...

As far as the topic, I'd concede that your personal experience on eBay may be different than mine... Differing opinions is what makes the world go 'round... But to state someone is unequivocally wrong is another story entirely... (m.)

Tarheel_
03-18-2011, 11:31 AM
Didn't really have the time to read all the posts, but i think what happens a lot is....PersonA starts a auction, then gets a friend who just registers( PersonB) to run up the auction to cover PersonA's back.

this happens to me frequently and when it does i just move on. You cannot get emotional about this stuff...if you do, then it means a lot to you and you should bid to win it.

In my 11 years on ebay, i've rarely, if ever, paid more than i thought the item was worth.

Hyfi
03-18-2011, 01:03 PM
I don't know, Geo... You seemed to come out of the gate pretty strong for a moderator... (m.)


After a thread turns into a rather heated debate, isn't it your job to, well, moderate?... That is, not necessarily take sides?

Swan,

Relax! It was just a discussion of differing opinions for one thing. For another, you have never seen a thread here become "rather heated". (they are in the archives from 10 years ago) This is a very tame thread for a whole bunch of people with differing, but always correct, opinions.

Point taken, people play games....on eBAY and every where else you look.

I am fully aware that Geoff can respond himself but as far as your moderator comments go, we have a nice handful of great moderators here. All of them post regularly and just like you, have their own ideas, opinions, and experience.

Geoff's couple responses were not an attack or taking sides by any stretch. He merely pointed out the obvious.

Now off to Happy Hour, the first pint is on me!

Thats where I'm headed to celebrate getting the stitches out of my back an hour ago.

Cheers....

swan24
03-18-2011, 02:26 PM
In the whole realm of the possible, things don't really have to be one thing or another...

They can often be one thing and another... And another... Etc....

I was voicing my personal experience... Others' may differ... In that realm, nothing is obvious, I would think...

If that wasn't so, forums wouldn't exist... They're a platform for different opinions and perspectives...

IMO, the problem comes when someone tries to invalidate another's opinion... Or state that they are somehow categorically wrong...

There's a discernable line there... (m.)

Hyfi
03-18-2011, 04:05 PM
In the whole realm of the possible, things don't really have to be one thing or another...

They can often be one thing and another... And another... Etc....

I was voicing my personal experience... Others' may differ... In that realm, nothing is obvious, I would think...

If that wasn't so, forums wouldn't exist... They're a platform for different opinions and perspectives...

IMO, the problem comes when someone tries to invalidate another's opinion... Or state that they are somehow categorically wrong...

There's a discernable line there... (m.)

OK, so how does the above differ from you calling people stupid because they don't play the game exactly how you do, or the way you think everyone should?

Ah nevermind.... it really doesn't matter now does it?

Beer of the night....several pints of Victory Yakima Glory. A nice hoppy treat.

swan24
03-18-2011, 04:47 PM
OK, so how does the above differ from you calling people stupid because they don't play the game exactly how you do, or the way you think everyone should?

Ah nevermind.... it really doesn't matter now does it?

Beer of the night....several pints of Victory Yakima Glory. A nice hoppy treat.


In this case, I was speaking (above) mostly to the act of moderating... As far as mattering, it does appear to matter, as you've already voiced a rather strong opinion on the issue... (m.)

mikemorrow
03-19-2011, 03:25 AM
Hifi Victory Yakima Glory? Nice brew I hear. I'm an old hophead from the west coast. We could talk Ales here. LOL

Hyfi
03-19-2011, 03:51 AM
Hifi Victory Yakima Glory? Nice brew I hear. I'm an old hophead from the west coast. We could talk Ales here. LOL

It was real nice on tap and it was my first time tasting it. They had the Hop Devil also which I love. Wild Devil is also quite good.

luvtolisten
03-19-2011, 06:45 AM
Now you got me thinking....................

E-Stat
03-19-2011, 07:10 AM
On the whole, I'd say that my point is valid enough... Following the trends over time would illustrate this well enough... (m.)
Speaking of illustrating, perhaps you can provide an example which actually supports your assertion.

rw

swan24
03-19-2011, 07:41 AM
Speaking of illustrating, perhaps you can provide an example which actually supports your assertion.

rw


I'd have to follow a few auctions, so that would take some time... I will offer my own experience, which led up to this thread: Over the last 6 months or so, I was trying to assemble a small tube-based audio system on a budget... The budget part is important, as I am a disabled vet, and don't have a lot of money to throw around...

Well, I've traditionally gone on eBay to do this, and up until relatively recently, it has been a good place to find tube gear at a good price... Let me segue a bit into the fact that I am old enough to have sold some of this stuff when I worked in audio in NYC in the late 60's and early 70's... So it was undoubtedly my previous experience that colored my feelings about the current price of the gear...

So, in a general sense, people going gaga over tube gear, and offering what I feel are ridiculous prices for same has always left me scratching my head... But particularly those who are new to eBay, and also are just bidding up the items because they got caught up in the hype, and also do not know how to bid...

That was it... I came on here to express my feelings over all the hoopla concerning overpriced tube gear-- particularly when this was put in tandem with new and inexperienced bidders on eBay... I think it was partly a rant, although I felt it was also a real problem for those on a budget who used to be able to buy at reasonable prices on eBay...

So, in a way, it was a hit on eBay, and new bidders... Some of the older members on here undoubtedly did get my lamentation... But others seemed to take offense to it... So be it... I was just relating my own experiences and feelings on the subject... I wasn't trying to state universal fact, or anything else of the kind... (m.)

02audionoob
03-19-2011, 08:01 AM
I do believe inexperienced bidders inflate prices. I have done it, myself. I have sometimes overpaid by not having a good feel for the value of an item, but I get great deals on the stuff I do know.

mlsstl
03-20-2011, 06:06 AM
So, in a general sense, people going gaga over tube gear, and offering what I feel are ridiculous prices for same has always left me scratching my head... But particularly those who are new to eBay, and also are just bidding up the items because they got caught up in the hype, and also do not know how to bid...

That was it... I came on here to express my feelings over all the hoopla concerning overpriced tube gear-- particularly when this was put in tandem with new and inexperienced bidders on eBay... I think it was partly a rant, although I felt it was also a real problem for those on a budget who used to be able to buy at reasonable prices on eBay...

The logical next question is what's your solution? Ban new bidders until they show they can behave themselves? Have a special playpen where they can practice until they get the needed pricing experience?

Of course, you'd have a fight with the sellers. They rather like those bid-up prices. ;-)

As noted previously, it is a pretty universal human experience to dislike changes to one's world that disrupts what has been. But then change is one of the few certainties.

swan24
03-20-2011, 06:30 AM
The logical next question is what's your solution? Ban new bidders until they show they can behave themselves? Have a special playpen where they can practice until they get the needed pricing experience?

Of course, you'd have a fight with the sellers. They rather like those bid-up prices. ;-)

As noted previously, it is a pretty universal human experience to dislike changes to one's world that disrupts what has been. But then change is one of the few certainties.

Perhaps directing newly minted eBayer's to a basic tutorial on bidding?... Maybe an eBay Lite?... Or a mock bidding program, where people can hone their skills? [akin to your playpen idea]... Although I see no real incentive for eBay/Pay-Pal, or sellers to get people to bid wisely... They get too much benefit out of having items bid up...

As far as change, given the state of the economy, why can't things change toward the more frugal?... They should be downwardly adjusting, IMHO... (m.)

mlsstl
03-20-2011, 07:48 AM
... Although I see no real incentive for eBay/Pay-Pal, or sellers to get people to bid wisely... They get too much benefit out of having items bid up...

As far as change, given the state of the economy, why can't things change toward the more frugal?... They should be downwardly adjusting, IMHO... (m.)

You hit the nail on the first point. eBay's incentive is for things to sell for more not less. Besides, in an ideal situation, they would be neutral. Their only input on pricing would be to watch for fraud rather than try to influence what the price "should be."

Regarding your second comment that prices "should be" trending downward, keep in mind that eBay has 81 million registered users (per most recent Annual Report). Every one of those users is a potential competitor for any given item.

Different buyers have different reasons for wanting something, different bidding philosophies and different spots where they draw a line in the sand. The mix of those variables is different for every auction.

Interestingly, I have a piece of old, but refurbished tube gear for sale on Audiogon. The past month I've only gotten lowball offers. Even though I'm at the low end of the price range for refurbed amps of this type, I've not been offered more than the going rate for an untouched unit, the old let's get something for nothing ploy. Apparently the inexperienced buyers are not frequenting that spot!

JoeE SP9
03-20-2011, 11:03 AM
So, what ad on Audiogon is yours?

mlsstl
03-20-2011, 11:56 AM
So, what ad on Audiogon is yours?

The Dynaco ST-70 that says "new price, free shipping". I think today or tomorrow is the last day for the ad.

YBArcam
04-14-2011, 09:14 PM
Wish I saw this thread earlier...

I see where the OP is coming from, and like him I avoid bidding until the last hour of an auction.

Theoretically, the more demand there is for a product, the higher it will cost. This is basically what bidding accomplishes. So why do it one week before an auction expires? On the surface it does seem counterproductive.

But it's probably not. Lots of early bidding may become counterproductive if the bidders get caught up in the competition, and bid drastically over what an item is truly worth. But people generally do understand the value of an item, and they do stop when this value is reached.

Besides, if all bidders waited until the final minutes of an auction, can you imagine the frenzy then? Who's to say the price wouldn't be driven up even higher? Perhaps it's good for some people to get the bidding out of their system, and realize this item is out of their price range. Then hopefully they will stay away as the auction is drawing to a close.

So I think that at the end of the day, an item sells for what the market is willing to pay, no matter when most of the bids were made. Nevertheless, I still avoid bidding early on. I just don't see the point of it, knowing I'll likely need to bid at the last second anyways. And if I don't need to bid at the last second, then I'll do so anyway and it'll be an easy win.

And whoa! I never heard of this sniping thing before. I don't do a ton of transactions on eBay (I think my rating is about 120 - a decent number I guess). eBay should honestly ban this garbage. Guarantee that you are the last bidder on an item? So I might be there bidding at the wire and because you cheat you get a bid in milliseconds after? How lazy can people be?!!! Honestly, part of winning is earning it. How about be just be present when the auction closes if you really want the item?

What happens when four bidders are all using sniping applications? I guess these programs act very quickly, but they do take a fraction of a second each time and it just depends who's bid gets in at the very last possible millisecond.

Lame.

Feanor
04-15-2011, 03:54 AM
...
And whoa! I never heard of this sniping thing before. I don't do a ton of transactions on eBay (I think my rating is about 120 - a decent number I guess). eBay should honestly ban this garbage. Guarantee that you are the last bidder on an item? So I might be there bidding at the wire and because you cheat you get a bid in milliseconds after? How lazy can people be?!!! Honestly, part of winning is earning it. How about be just be present when the auction closes if you really want the item?

What happens when four bidders are all using sniping applications? I guess these programs act very quickly, but they do take a fraction of a second each time and it just depends who's bid gets in at the very last possible millisecond.

Lame.
Lame or not, sniping is practical, convenient, and tends to psychological control. Should it be banned? Well, eBay hasn't move to do that, so presumably it's OK from their self-interested perspective.

Sniping doesn't guarantee that your bid will win, only that you won't encourage the other guy to irrationally up his bid after seeing yours. Sniping is only an enhancement of the basic, sensible strategy of bidding the most you're willing to pay for an item, no more, no less.

And yes, I believe I've been out bid by other snipers on a few occassions.

E-Stat
04-15-2011, 05:29 AM
So I might be there bidding at the wire and because you cheat you get a bid in milliseconds after? How lazy can people be?!!! Honestly, part of winning is earning it. How about be just be present when the auction closes if you really want the item?
How does showing your hand late in the game become cheating? I bid up to the limit I assign to a given item - regardless of when I post that bid. Sniping only changes the bids of those who don't initially think about what they're willing to pay. As for being present, those who post their bids within seconds of the end are most certainly there when the auction closes!

The person who bids the highest wins regardless of timing. If you find that you lost an auction because you were outbid at the end, then perhaps you should rethink your concept of setting a limit.

rw

YBArcam
04-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Lame or not, sniping is practical, convenient, and tends to psychological control. Should it be banned? Well, eBay hasn't move to do that, so presumably it's OK from their self-interested perspective.

Sniping doesn't guarantee that your bid will win, only that you won't encourage the other guy to irrationally up his bid after seeing yours.

I don't see how it guarantees that. If the other person is willing to pay more than you, he will bid up until he passes your maximum bid. Nevertheless, you could just put your maximum bid into eBay right from the start. Should that likewise not discourage the other guy from irrationally upping his bid, the way you argue that sniping does? He will start bidding but you will still be the top bidder (if your bid is high enough). The only difference is, you aren't making a bid to counter whatever he just entered. Instead, the system simply informs him that his bid isn't high enough. Believe me, that's plenty frustrating if you are trying to get something at a good price.

Also, I don't understand why you are making the assumption that the other guy is acting irrationally. He might keep bidding, eventually pass you and become the top bidder. When does this happen? Answer - once he passes your highest bid, by a measly 50 cents! So he wins the item by paying 50 cents more than you, and that's irrational? I would disagree. And no sniping program will prevent someone from bidding if he is willing to pay that amount, just like eBay's maximum bid feature won't.


How does showing your hand late in the game become cheating? I bid up to the limit I assign to a given item - regardless of when I post that bid. Sniping only changes the bids of those who don't initially think about what they're willing to pay. As for being present, those who post their bids within seconds of the end are most certainly there when the auction closes!

The person who bids the highest wins regardless of timing. If you find that you lost an auction because you were outbid at the end, then perhaps you should rethink your concept of setting a limit.

If I wanted something bad enough, I've always won it. For precisely the reason you gave - I outbid everyone else. Sniping just seems dishonest to me. eBay has created it's method of bidding, it's fair and square for everyone because that's the platform everyone uses. And it involves being there to type in your bid and manually click the bid button. Not some 3rd party program that automatically puts your bid in a half second after the last person put their bid in. This is akin to hacking eBay's system to make it act differently than it should. Again, if it's all about setting the limit you are willing to pay, and dissuade others from bidding recklessly, then why can't eBay's maximum bid function be all you need?

E-Stat
04-16-2011, 06:03 AM
Not some 3rd party program that automatically puts your bid in a half second after the last person put their bid in. This is akin to hacking eBay's system to make it act differently than it should.
Sniping doesn't require third party software. It simply means that a bidder waits until the end until placing their bid (and setting their limit).


Again, if it's all about setting the limit you are willing to pay, and dissuade others from bidding recklessly, then why can't eBay's maximum bid function be all you need?
It is. If a late bidder enters a higher amount than your limit, he wins.

rw

02audionoob
04-16-2011, 06:38 AM
If you're going to use a 3rd party to place your bid, it's not somehow setup to place bids a half-second after someone else places a bid. When you bid the conventional way you put in a maximum bid when you click the button. If you use the 3rd party to do it, that web site puts in a maximum bid at the number of seconds you specify. For example, I usually have it put mine in at 10 seconds before the end of the auction. I don't use it often, just when I can't be at the computer when the auction ends.

Feanor
04-16-2011, 06:57 AM
....
Also, I don't understand why you are making the assumption that the other guy is acting irrationally. He might keep bidding, eventually pass you and become the top bidder. When does this happen? Answer - once he passes your highest bid, by a measly 50 cents! So he wins the item by paying 50 cents more than you, and that's irrational? I would disagree. And no sniping program will prevent someone from bidding if he is willing to pay that amount, just like eBay's maximum bid feature won't.
...
Not everybody bids "irrationally" -- not you by the sound of it. If everyone were to simply place their maximum bid up front and forget about it 'till the end of the auction, there'd be no problem. Unfortunately there are people who will continually up their bid if they see that somebody has out-bit them -- I call this irrational, and it is these people that bid sniping discourages.

But I think eBay buyers are getting smarter. This is why the high bids tend to turn up only in the last few minutes of auctions -- software-driven sniping provides that your bid is place in the last few seconds.