Time for Obama to denounce Mubarak

[Feanor]

It's time for Obama to denounce Mubarak and his tactics explicity.

When his uniformed security police failed to suppress the protests, he stood them down (leaving neighbourhoods and museums unprotected), and called in the army. When the army refused to fire on protestors, he bid for time saying he wouldn't stand for reelection hoping he'd seem "reasonable".

This gave him time to implement that tried-and-true tactic of repressive regimes: organized gangs of thugs and paid supporters to beat-up on peaceful protestors. (We say this exact method after the most recent Iranian election protests.)

So will Obama go the final distance, denouce Mubarak, point out his dispicable tacts, and call for him to step down at once? I suspect that would finally be a US position broadly supported by the Arab street. But it might not happen: because after all Israel seems to like Mubarak better than the alternatives whatever their democratic credentials. And we know where American polititians get their marching orders.

[GMichael]

I doubt that he'll commit either way until he knows which side is going to win.

[Hyfi]

And what good will that actually do since the US can't be trusted anymore either?

Seems to me that with all the idiots over that side of the world so willing to blow themselves up that they need to figure out how to take the guy out for real.

Obama spouting off to Americans will do nothing to help the Egyptians get rid of him. The only thing he can do is what we are already doing, send our troops to die in other countries over bull****. I for one am against that option as well as the US going around forcing our ways on others.

Time for some of these other countries to step up to the plate and take care of themselves!

[Feanor]

....

Obama spouting off to Americans will do nothing to help the Egyptians get rid of him. The only thing he can do is what we are already doing, send our troops to die in other countries over bull****. I for one am against that option as well as the US going around forcing our ways on others.

Time for some of these other countries to step up to the plate and take care of themselves!
:eek6: Me too!

[basite]

Time for some of these other countries to step up to the plate and take care of themselves!


Well that's something I can only agree on...

for the rest of, even though you're still at war, you can take my word on it that where you are with obama, you are off far better than where you would have been with any other candidate, especially not with a republican.

as far of obama denouncing Mubarak, no single government denouncing him would make a difference, he doesn't care anyhow, and I think he knows just as well that what he is doing at this moment, is not appreciated by any other person anywhere.

not saying that I say that what is happening is "right", but I look at it as a good thing. We see this in tunesia, and Yemen too now, peope are coming on the street. Standing up against their "leaders", it might never happen, time will tell, but there is something bigger going on there. look at it as a revolution. The "Arabic revolution". A quest for freedom, for wanting progress, and democracy, a new world. Much like we've seen with the french revolution, the american revolution, and so much other revolutions in the past. This is not something the president of the USA should enforce, nor any other leader, this is something the people should do themselves, not that blood must be shed in large quantities, of course, and this we might be able to help, but we cannot take their pride from them neither, can't we?

[blackraven]

It's time for the U.S. to step down from from being the world's police force and take care of its own people. Most of the public doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world as we have enough of our own problems with the crumbling infrastructure, unemployment, health care, violence, education, drugs, etc..

[basite]

It's time for the U.S. to step down from from being the world's police force and take care of its own people. Most of the public doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world as


True, however, one small comment: "most of the public doesn't give a damn about the world, as your big news reports are to selfish to spend any more than a minute on the rest of the world.

we care about the rest of the world too, and we've got problems of our own too.

[blackraven]

Basite, I think that we are fed up with the U.S giving away billions of dollars as foreign aid and spending billions of dollars to fight in foreign countries when that money can be used here to fix some of problems as well as pay off the national debt. And as far a the news here, they do spend plenty of time on foreign affairs with CNN, Fox news etc.

[bobsticks]

Basite, I think that we are fed up with the U.S giving away billions of dollars as foreign aid and spending billions of dollars to fight in foreign countries when that money can be used here to fix some of problems as well as pay off the national debt. And as far a the news here, they do spend plenty of time on foreign affairs with CNN, Fox news etc.

I agree with the sentiment but, as is usual with these things, there are circumstances and complexities...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41452744/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

[Hyfi]

It's time for the U.S. to step down from from being the world's police force and take care of its own people. Most of the public doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world as we have enough of our own problems with the crumbling infrastructure, unemployment, health care, violence, education, drugs, etc..

All true but the main problem is that we, USA, are too dependent on foreign oil, which for the most part is controlled by Egypt.

Maybe we could use those billions of dollars to tap into the reserves that are sitting just under our own country..........oh yeah, the Tree Huggers won't let us.

[(O0o*o0O)]

:prrr:

[Poultrygeist]

Ten years later and we're still fighting Bush's war and no one is talking about it's cost in terms of American lives and wasted resources. For what I don't know. My step son is an A10 pilot who has done two tours there already and I can only hope and pray we soon get the hell out. And by the way who was that guy we were looking for?

[Feanor]

All true but the main problem is that we, USA, are too dependent on foreign oil, which for the most part is controlled by Egypt.
...
This is factually untrue. Egypt's own oil production is tiny, and only a small portion of the world's oil supply travels through the Suez Canal or the Red Sea-to-Mediterranean pipeline.


...
Maybe we could use those billions of dollars to tap into the reserves that are sitting just under our own country..........oh yeah, the Tree Huggers won't let us.
I certainly hope not. The US and world would far better off if that money were go to developing "green" energy technologies.

[Feanor]

The US government ought to denounce Mubarak at least as much for the benefit of Americans as for Egyptians.

Perhaps this point is still poorly understood by Americans. The US is hated by the middle east street for the decades of its support of dictators and uncritical support for Israel despite their oppression of Palestinians. It will hugely benefit the US' image and real influence in the world if it reverses these failed policies -- the Egypt crisis is the ideal time to begin this process.

Further in that regard it will be better for the US to end publicly-stated reservations about the Musilim Brotherhood. In the relativity of things, the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate organization and positive influence against far more extreme Jihadist outfits.

[GMichael]

The US government ought to denounce Mubarak at least as much for the benefit of Americans as for Egyptians.

Perhaps this point is still poorly understood by Americans. The US is hated by the middle east street for the decades of its support of dictators and uncritical support for Israel despite their oppression of Palestinians.
Oh but we do understand this. Our actions don't reflect it, but we know. Trying to get our government to do what we want is like trying to steer a bull with a ballpoint pen.


It will hugely benefit the US' image and real influence in the world if it reverses these failed policies -- the Egypt crisis is the ideal time to begin this process..
Maybe, but I don't see that happening. We don't admit.. oops, I mean, we don't MAKE mistakes.


Further in that regard it will be better for the US to end publicly-stated reservations about the Musilim Brotherhood. In the relativity of things, the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate organization and positive influence against far more extreme Jihadist outfits.

Our media often points out that these are extreemists and they don't reflect the Muslims as a whole. It often falls of deaf ears though. If you keep getting hit in the mouth by little green men then it's hard not to think that all little green men will hit you. It's human nature. Only if you learn more about little green men, and spend some time with them, do you find them to be just like everyone else. That they are not really 'them' or 'they' but part of 'us.'

[Hyfi]

And by the way who was that guy we were looking for?

That would be Osoma bin Forgotten who lives in caves hooked up with Kidney Dialysis equipment.

[Feanor]

I agree with the sentiment but, as is usual with these things, there are circumstances and complexities...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41452744/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
There certainly are.


...
With Egypt in revolt and the country’s future uncertain, concern is growing over whether a new government in the Arab world’s most militarily and industrially advanced country could accelerate an arms race in one of the world’s most volatile regions.

At the heart of the concern is intelligence indicating that Egypt has quietly carried out research and development on weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear, chemical, biological and missile technology.

If Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is forced to step down, new leadership in Cairo could mean a radical change in that relationship, analysts say.
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So where's the news?


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Withdraw from nuke treaty?

In fact, at least one nuclear proliferation analyst believes that a shift may already {emphasis added} be under way in Egyptian policy {i.e. before the current crisis} and that the U.S. may have to deal with Cairo withdrawing from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which it signed and ratified in 1968.
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The Egyptians have pushed for a U.N. conference next year on weapons of mass destruction, or WMD, in the Middle East, and would like to see constraints placed on Israeli and Iranian arms programs.

But “these requirements are hard to meet,” Albright said. “(The conference) may not end well, and that could be a catalyst for them to leave the (Non-Proliferation Treaty).”
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Mubarak or a replacement, looks like the same problem: a further breakdown of the Non-proliferation Treaty.

And which two nations worry Egypt? Israel and Iran. And which one of the two already actually has nuclear weapons?

[bobsticks]

The US government ought to denounce Mubarak at least as much for the benefit of Americans as for Egyptians.
Perhaps this point is still poorly understood by Americans. The US is hated by the middle east street for the decades of its support of dictators and uncritical support for Israel despite their oppression of Palestinians. It will hugely benefit the US' image and real influence in the world if it reverses these failed policies -- the Egypt crisis is the ideal time to begin this process.
Further in that regard it will be better for the US to end publicly-stated reservations about the Musilim Brotherhood. In the relativity of things, the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate organization and positive influence against far more extreme Jihadist outfits.

Why do you always have to do that?

I had agreed with the general thrust of your argument while noting that there are complexities regarding the "devil-that-you-know-versus-the devil-that-you-don't" nature of Middle Eastern politics and you have to paint my entire nation as stupid.

I do not "poorly understand" the current state of enmity between these two regions of the world, in point of fact, I very well understand it. A casual viewing of Al-Jazeera at any given time is all that is needed to confirm it. The planes into the buildings were a tipoff too.

[Feanor]

Why do you always have to do that?

I had agreed with the general thrust of your argument while noting that there are complexities regarding the "devil-that-you-know-versus-the devil-that-you-don't" nature of Middle Eastern politics and you have to paint my entire nation as stupid.

I do not "poorly understand" the current state of enmity between these two regions of the world, in point of fact, I very well understand it. A casual viewing of Al-Jazeera at any given time is all that is needed to confirm it. The planes into the buildings were a tipoff too.
No, your entire nation is not stupid. (There are a few who are of course, same as in any nation.)

I know that you, bobsticks, don't "poorly understand" the attitude of Arabs, Iranians, Afgans, or Pakistanis towards the United States. But then how many Americans ever read Al-Jazeera?

Far too many Americans permit themselves to be deceived by Fox News and the vast multitude of Teaparty and Christian Right eminations that promote a false vision of what American was, is, and ought to be, and utterly dysfunctional pipedreams of American Exceptionalism and Triumphalism. More incidiously the likes of AIPAC work relentlessly, especially on US polititians behind the scenes, to promote a foreign policy that is detrimental to interests of US, the world in general, and, ultimately, Israel itself.

Amerika Erwache! Didn't somebody say that, in a democracy, people get the government they deserve?

[bobsticks]

Far too many Americans permit themselves to be deceived by Fox News and the vast multitude of Teaparty and Christian Right eminations that promote a false vision of what American was, is, and ought to be, and utterly dysfunctional pipedreams of American Exceptionalism and Triumphalism.

Or could it be that many Americans see no need to become involved in a multi-generational, century-long temper tantrum?

As you've conceeded, it's not that I'm unaware of prevailing attitudes, it's that I, and many others, simply don't give a good damn. This is life, not a popularity contest and it's not summer camp. It's not important that everyboy gets a turn. I give as much credence to the general malaise of the youth on Cairo streets as I do the rantings of an illegal immigrant in East L.A. holding a sign proclaiming 'We Were Here First!".

Displaced rage is dangerous and as pointless and certainly less accurate than harboring
resentments because the Ottomans were p****** or that the King of Hejaz sold someone's ancestors a bridge in Transjordan's Brooklyn area. State sponsored fascism is just that, and state sponsored consumerism is state sponsored consumerism.



More incidiously the likes of AIPAC work relentlessly, especially on US polititians behind the scenes, to promote a foreign policy that is detrimental to interests of US, the world in general, and, ultimately, Israel itself.

Including promotion of the publicly-stated reservations about the Muslim Brotherhood? If the Muslim Brotherhood is what passes for a moderate voice of conciliation I fear for the region and the world...

...and when did they become moderate? Was it when they stopped officially sanctioning assassinations and disseminating Arab translations of Mein Kampf? Is it now that they merely support state-sponsored Sharia Law and the oppression of women and noncompliant minorities?

I find it odd that you would stand behind a socia/political/quasi-military movement whose fundamental tenets include the failings of secular society. Strange bedfellows, indeed.



Amerika Erwache! Didn't somebody say that, in a democracy, people get the government they deserve?

Again, why does this always turn into a discussion about the American experience? The League of Nations was comprised of blackhearted and bumbling old men from across the globe. Where's the China hate? The Belgium hate? Hell, even the damn Serbs supported the British Mandate to oversee Palestine.

[Feanor]

Or could it be that many Americans see no need to become involved in a multi-generational, century-long temper tantrum?
...
Maybe they should be; maybe it's a matter of survival.


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As you've conceeded, it's not that I'm unaware of prevailing attitudes, it's that I, and many others, simply don't give a good damn.
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See my comment above.


...
Including promotion of the publicly-stated reservations about the Muslim Brotherhood? If the Muslim Brotherhood is what passes for a moderate voice of conciliation I fear for the region and the world...

...and when did they become moderate? Was it when they stopped officially sanctioning assassinations and disseminating Arab translations of Mein Kampf? Is it now that they merely support state-sponsored Sharia Law and the oppression of women and noncompliant minorities?
...
I said relatively moderate. If this is the organization the Egyptians will vote for in a democratic election, then we'd better sucking it up. (Because the alternate strategy isn't working.)


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Again, why does this always turn into a discussion about the American experience? The League of Nations was comprised of blackhearted and bumbling old men from across the globe. Where's the China hate? The Belgium hate? Hell, even the damn Serbs supported the British Mandate to oversee Palestine.
Do want you want the US to quit being the world's leading nation? Personally I really hope it doesn't because, for the time being, (a generation or so), nobody else is able to do it. When you're a leader you're held to a high standard and you'd better watch your behavior -- or watch your back.

[GMichael]

Do want you want the US to quit being the world's leading nation? Personally I really hope it doesn't because, for the time being, (a generation or so), nobody else is able to do it. When you're a leader you're held to a high standard and you'd better watch your behavior -- or watch your back.

We'll gladly step down if it means that we can stop being the world's whipping post. Who's next in line?

[Feanor]

We'll gladly step down if it means that we can stop being the world's whipping post. Who's next in line?
The world is better for somebody providing a good and powerful influence -- political, economic, moral. If the US stands down, some other country will step up who won't be as able to do it. This could be a major problem for world, including the US. Do you think we'd be better off with China taking over?

[GMichael]

The world is better for somebody providing a good and powerful influence -- political, economic, moral. If the US stands down, some other country will step up who won't be as able to do it. This could be a major problem for world, including the US. Do you think we'd be better off with China taking over?

China? My wild guess is no. How about if the U.N takes over? Wasn't that the original idea?

[Hyfi]

The world is better for somebody providing a good and powerful influence -- political, economic, moral. If the US stands down, some other country will step up who won't be as able to do it. This could be a major problem for world, including the US. Do you think we'd be better off with China taking over?

Ha, we are so moral, our politicians are lying sacks of crap, and doesn't China basically own us because we are trillions in debt?

The UN is the right choice but nobody listens to them because there is nothing to back them up....but us.

[Feanor]

Ha, we are so moral, our politicians are lying sacks of crap, and doesn't China basically own us because we are trillions in debt?

The UN is the right choice but nobody listens to them because there is nothing to back them up....but us.
The UN, it would be nice to think, is the right choice but there are many issues.

The US is largest funder based on the official UN funding formula which itself is mainly on per capita income (and various other qualifications). The US has also been a fairly reliable in actualy making its prescibed funding payments while various other countries have not.

But the US' role is a bit different when it comes to supporting UN resolutions. Since 1965 it has veto far more resolutions than any other nation; (before '65 the distinction went to the Soviet Union). Since 1989 the US has veto 13 of 19 resolutions vetoed; of these 11 pertained to the middle east and mostly pertaining to criticisms of Isreal, (now there's a really big surprise). (See Wikipedia item HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power).)

Without being an expert, I suspect the powers of the Security Council would have to be extensively rethought for the UN to be effective. Presently there are five permanent member countries all of whom have an absolute veto, plus five more countries without veto elected by the General Assembly for set terms of office. Maybe the SC total membership should be expanded to, say, 20; the 5 permanent members changed and/or expanded in number; and the veto abolished with 60% or 2/3 majority requirement replacing it.

Beyond this supposedly the UN cannot intervene in the "internal affairs" of any country. This restriction perhaps ougth to be removed under some circumstances.

[GMichael]

Seems like a no win for the USA to me. Dammed if we do, dammed if we don’t.

[bobsticks]

Hot damn! It may well turn out that this particular little internet tęte-ŕ-tęte mau turn into nothing more than a theoretical couch session. Reports vary as to numbers but are consistent in the insistance from the leaders of the demonstrations that they will remain peacefully intractable on the full resignation/abdication of Mubarek.

In the trades they call that a full scale shift in the balance of power for the region...a revolución of sorts...all potentially without the firing of a single U.S. bullet or hollow diatribe.

[Feanor]

Hot damn! It may well turn out that this particular little internet tęte-ŕ-tęte mau turn into nothing more than a theoretical couch session. Reports vary as to numbers but are consistent in the insistance from the leaders of the demonstrations that they will remain peacefully intractable on the full resignation/abdication of Mubarek.

In the trades they call that a full scale shift in the balance of power for the region...a revolución of sorts...all potentially without the firing of a single U.S. bullet or hollow diatribe.
The smartest thing Obama has said is that the outcome will be decided by Egyptians, (maybe the only smart thing). I credit the current US adminsitration that sees that military intervention isn't a great an idea.

That Obama's remark is certainly more helpful than the recent remark out of Israel that "stability is more important than democracy in the middle east". It's about time that the Israeli tail quit wagging the American dog.

[Feanor]

Yet another US veto in the UN Security Council. Ambassador Susan Rice cast the single dissenting vote for a draft resolution condemning Israel for continued settlement in the West Bank. Rice said that although the US administration opposed settlement activity, the resolution would not facilitate discuss between the parties.

Everyone is well aware that the administration is caving to Congressional pressure. Congress clearly opposes any and all criticism of Israel. What might "facilitate discussion" would be an end fo military aid to Israel and international sanctions against it. But Congress is so supine to the demands of domestic pro-Zions, (viz. many but not all American Jews, and factions of the Christian Right), that this will never happen.

But then there is a chance that current events in the Middle East will overtake old policies and attitudes.

[bobsticks]

http://i0.mailcdn.com/084/213084,h=463,pd=1,w=620.jpg
Where Is Quaddafi?

U.S. Military Forces, intelligence services, and clandestine operations are scrambling to ascertain the location of Libyan dictator, Muommar el-Quaddafi in the wake of his sudden disappearance from both public and private functions. Growing concerns within the Libyan Intelligence community may have influenced the Dictator to temporarily flee the country, as fears of American retribution for repeated vague and hostile criticism of Israel have reminded many of U.S. imperialistic military incursions of the past.

When contacted for comment Libyan Military Envoy, Muhammed Abdel el-Sabin tersely reminded the world of Libyan resentments against U.S. foreign policy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5MGvd0uS6Xs/SUOEVvKaCxI/AAAAAAAAALw/hVfGB2evL4Q/s200/TeamAmerica.jpg


On location in neighboring Syria, U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner denied any radical plans for U.S. military expeditions but could not confirm whether that ruled out future military interventions for subsequent criticisms, social gaffes, awkward attempts at facilitating conversation, or fashion faux-pas.

http://phillips.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/09/517teamamerica_8.jpg

I cannot tell you what will happen next. Clearly, and as with any situation of this nature, there are complexities with all interested parties moving, hopefully moving, toward a more democratic fullfillment of national idealogy. That said, I'd imagine that while the President and Joint Chiefs are more than willing to turn a blind eye toward the armed suppression of an indigenous population any and all criticism of Israel will be viewed by the Pro-Zionist elements as casus belli. Hey, this all premature, I'm not here in a military capacity. I'm simply here to discuss, with the Syrian government ways to facilitate economic growth within the region and the stabilization of our currency, the U.S. Yuan----U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner


Sources within the Israeli Mossad have hinted that Quaddafi may be up to his old tricks. In times of extreme crisis the Libyan dictator has been known to seek refuge with allies to avoid direct confrontation. During the first Gulf of Sidra clashes Quaddafi landed saftely in Hollywood and remained hidden for the duration of the conflict until ultimately exposed for his role in the propaganda-laden "Weekend at Muommar's" , culturally impacting American concern's over a resurrection of McCarthyism:

http://thejerseybackup.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/moammar.jpg

At this time, however, sources within multiple foreign agencies believe that Quaddafi has instead followed is patternistic retreat methodology similar to that during the 1986 bombing raids conducted against Canada. For some time that year the tyrant remained hidden away in a Canadian production studio and, again, retreated into thespianism, playing the role of Sam Crenshaw on Today's Special a variety show which aired on Canada's Nickleodeon Network. There have been no reports of the character being resurrected at this time.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LLc74FKuF8o/Ss37_DRtm_I/AAAAAAAABlo/Oz4Be62Wg4k/s400/gaddafi_crenshaw.jpg

Some analysts within the intelligence communities theorize that the return to Canada may have more to do with lingering resentments over the 1986 Tripoli bombing than any inclination toward conciliation between pro-Zionist elements and a young Libyan population growing ever more prone to saying critical, and often simply not-nice things, regarding the Israeli coalition. Some rogue elements have even gone so far as to insists that Quaddafi is in actuality in hush hush traing with Team GSP for a return bout with former U.S. President Ronald Reagan. It is not known whether or not the Libyan dictator is aware of Reagan's lack of availability for the fight.






When pressured to support this bizarre theory spokesmen for the U.S. NSA and the German Bundesnachrichtendienst reported finding a scroll jammed into the rear cavity of a camel tied to a rock at the decrepitous French Embassy in Tripoli inscribed with the following:

I was just a boy when the infidels came to my village in their Blackhawk helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the fiery black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats screaming for help. As quickly as they had come, the infidels were gone. It was on that day I put a jihad on them. And if you don’t believe it, then you’d better kill me now, because I’ll put a jihad on you, too.

[Feanor]

http://i0.mailcdn.com/084/213084,h=463,pd=1,w=620.jpg
...

Now I get it :biggrin5:
...

[bobsticks]

Nice. That's a helluva make-up job but I guess some habilts die hard, eh?

I'm a little upset that I didn't get any credit for the line "culturally impacting American concern's over a resurrection of McCarthyism". That's quality material right there...I don't care who y'are...