I Need A Power Amp?

[jimmy m]

I got a good deal on some Cerwin Vega speakers. Got a pair of DX-9's and RE-30's. The speakers are in immaculate condition. But I have only an older Marantz 2250B as my tuner/power amp. I get to half volume and the sound starts to distort. Forgive me for not having a lot of stereo savvy, but I am assuming I need more power to make the speakers sound better. I'm using the system to play music only. Any recommendations on what I can do to have a better sounding system when I crank the volume. D'ont really want to spend more than 2-3 hundred, but I have seen some interesting power amps on ebay for that kind of money, and have no idea what I'm bidding on and what to look for. Any HELP? There is pretty good sized speaker wire so I don't think that is it either. Sorry for sounding so lame.
Listen, I'm a 61 year old hippie who has collected music for 50 years and still likes to crank it up once in awhile. I know I dont have the astute questions that all the audiophiles seem to like to pounce on. Give an old man a break, just looking for some kind of direction.
jimmy m

[blackraven]

Do you want a 2ch receiver, integrated amp or a separate power amp and preamp?

For a good high power 2ch receiver, consider the Harmon Kardon 3490. It's a nice high current receiver with preamp out, phono preamp and bass management.

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-HK-3490-Radio-ready/dp/B00198F89A

If your Marantz has preamp outs then you can use it asa preamp and buy a separate power amp.

[jimmy m]

Yes, I was hoping to use the Marantz as a preamp and integrate a power amp into the system. Those DX-9's can take a pretty hefty wattage, thats why I was looking for some kind of idea on an amp which would make it sound sweet. QSC? Another Marantz? Been looking at a lot of vintage stuff, but just confused on what I need for power.

[harley .guy07]

I have head the DX-9's powered by several amps with good results for the "cranking" that you crave. As far as power amps in your price class the best amp I have heard with these speakers that will give you the power you need to crank these big boys a Adcom 5500 or 5800 will allow you to play them as loud as almost anyone will be able to handle. I have actually heard setups when I sold Adcom in the 90's where people would run multiple pairs of dx-9 with these adcom amps and got awesome results and even though with 2 pairs the load is 2 ohm these adcom amps can handle 2ohm loads with no problems. I don't know about your receiver and if it has preamp outputs to run amps but that would get you there cheap for right now and you could buy a dedicated preamp in the future. I also heard the DX-9's through a harmon Kardon amp back in the 90's that cranked on the vega's as well but I can't remember the model number of the amp.

[jimmy m]

Yes, there is a pre out/ main in. Thanks so much for the reply. I have seen Adcoms for sale and they certainly would fit the budget. Is QSC something I should be lookin at? They tend to be a little higher but 1450's seem to be in range. 2450s if I'm lucky. I remember Crown used to be big back in the day along with Mcintosh.

[Mr Peabody]

QSC & Crown are Pro audio amps and probably not what you want. Mac, forget about it, too much money. Look for Adcom gfa-545 or 5400 which both are 125x2, or, 555 and 5500 which are both 200x2. I had a 5500 and loved it. Well, I had a 5400 as well, it is extremely strong but if you can swing it the 5500 sounds noticeably better in my opinion. A Rotel 1082 at 200x2 would do the job as well. Another option would be to check www.emotiva.com and buy new with a 30 day trial option to return. Several members have these amps and say they do perform beyond their price. You need something like these with some grunt.

If not wanting to mess around with bidding look on www.audiogon.com for straight up sales.

[jimmy m]

Thanks guys for the info. I feel like I am at least pointed in a decent direction. Many thanks!!

[Mr Peabody]

I see www.spearitsound.com has a 545 used $249.00. B&K is another brand you might find used that would do the job.

[thekid]

Second the recommendations for the Adcom gear. The 545 or 555 would be more than up to the job and are available at reasonable prices.

[jimmy m]

Thanks Mr Peabody and all for your help. The 1st when I get my disability check, I'm in. It's like going to the toy store again.

[blackraven]

If you are handy you might want to consider building a digital amp like this-

http://classdaudio.com/index.php/products/class-d-amplifiers.html

The reviews on this amps are fantastic. One of the members here built the STS and is using it in place of his Monarchy amps with his Magnepan 1.6 speakers.

Check out the pages of reviews here-

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0

I'm eventually going to build one for my son and one for my second system. If they sound better than my Parasound Halo, I might build a pair to use as mono blocks for my main system.

[harley .guy07]

I second the building option if a person is a good solderer and is knowledgeable with putting things together but otherwise I would hate to put the op ina position to get in over his head with a project when there are excellent amps out there within his budget. I personally own a Adcom 545 series 2 and love it. Mr Peabody is right that the 5500 is an awesome piece and would be perfect for you and better than the 5400, But in my opinion the 545 series two is better than the 5400 in my opinion and i have extensive experience with Adcom produicts since I used to sell them. But with the speakers you are running I am in agreance with Mr Peabody a 5500 for 555 series 2 would be a perfect affordable option for you. A lot of people forget or dismiss that adcom shook the world in the 80's and 90's with what they could do for the price they charged and I remember when I was younger reading reviews of Adcom's amps embarrassing way pricier amps and I have actually heard them do it for myself and that is why I have not changed from mine in all these years. I am not saying that there is not better out there but you have to have your check book pretty full to get much better in most cases.

[blackraven]

I agree with Adcom and B&K. You should be able to find a B&K reference 100.2 for about $300. Plenty of power at 125wpc at 8ohm and 185 at 4ohm. It has a warmer sound as well and I believe it is true balanced.

[Poultrygeist]

You don't have to solder to put the class D together and for $175 nothing else comes close in terms of quality sound and power.

[jimmy m]

Hello again! I was looking at the class d's and the sds-254 grabbed my attention. They kind of actually appear like there isn't a heck of alot of pieces to them and I am fairly confident I could assemble if there was no soldering involved. And providing the kit manual spells it out for you rather than assume you know what they're talking about. A dumb question - but are they not covered for a reason? It seems they would be a catch all for dust?
Also I saw a Adcom 5400 for $200, but now I'm thinking I should probably wait (thats the hardest part) until I find a 545 or 555 for a decent price. Adcoms seem to be quite popular, and when they come up you probably should jump on it. But I still would like to be convinced I could throw a kit together. The open air board still has me dumbfounded.

[Mr Peabody]

$200.00 for a 5400 is good, the 5400 & 545 are both 125x2. The 555 gets up to 200x2 and more output devices, as well as the 5500. I haven't heard the 545 so not sure if the sound difference is anything worth waiting for. The Class D could be a step up over both from what the guys are saying about them.

[blackraven]

Hello again! I was looking at the class d's and the sds-254 grabbed my attention. They kind of actually appear like there isn't a heck of alot of pieces to them and I am fairly confident I could assemble if there was no soldering involved. And providing the kit manual spells it out for you rather than assume you know what they're talking about. A dumb question - but are they not covered for a reason? It seems they would be a catch all for dust?
Also I saw a Adcom 5400 for $200, but now I'm thinking I should probably wait (thats the hardest part) until I find a 545 or 555 for a decent price. Adcoms seem to be quite popular, and when they come up you probably should jump on it. But I still would like to be convinced I could throw a kit together. The open air board still has me dumbfounded.

You need to place the 254 in a chassis like these-

http://www.vt4c.com/shop/program/main.php?cat_id=1032&group_id=2

Just make sure that th einside dimensions will fit the amp. There are a few other sites for chassis

[jimmy m]

Thanks again blackraven!! You guys have all been a wealth of knowledge.

[Poultrygeist]

The SDS will stomp the Adcom.

[JoeE SP9]

jimmy m, I agree with harley .guy. The GFA-545 Series I or II have always been my favorite of all Adcom amps. I am biased in this. I have 2 Series I's. With the going rate for them around $200 they're a no brainer for used gear.

[Jim Eck]

Adcom's are very nice amplifiers, I am currently running a 585 in my set up. A couple of other amps that you may consider are Hafler's and even Soundcraftsmen's. Both are rock solid performers. The Hafler's do offer much more in upgrades (whether the 220 or the 500) than the Soundcraftsmen's do but both will handle the type load you are posing, 2-4 ohm stable, 205 wpc-250 wpc depending on model. I have a pair of Soundcraftsmen pcr 800's bridged for 600 wpc. :yikes:

One question on your current set up, are you running both the DX's and the RE's at the same time on your Marantz? If you are I wouldn't run it for any extended periods of time at high volumes, the old circuitry may not be up to the load.

As part of your 'new' endeavors you might consider recapping your Marantz, it is amazing the difference new capacitors can make. These 40-50 year old amps (2250B circa 1976-1977) used some oil filled capacitors and they tend to fail with time. You might even 'pop the hood' and take a look around just to be sure non of the capacitors are bulging or leaking.

Jim

[wessongroup]

You might check out the Odyssey amp's... down size is their size, 68 lb... but, for their sound it is a rather good trade off....

Ran a pair of Maggie's bi-amp with a Marchand x-over and a maggie center, with a Sony TA9000ES pre/pro for a number of years...(Odyssey HT3/Mono Blocks) but, have sold off all but the HT3 amp for my front's and center (Kilpsch RB II in cherry) and it the process of picking up center to replaces an old PSB center which is not a good match for what I'm going to be using... and my hearing in my old age...

Currently I'm putting new socks on my 3.3R (true ribbon tweeters maggie's)... "color black" the old were white, didn't like and they show dirt ... plus going through the guts ... "tacking" down the wires of the speakers to the planar speakers ... have upgraded the Cap's with Stolen for both the external x-overs... and for the speakers themselves...

A great sounding speaker if you like the plannar speaker... which I will be selling in the near future, among some other things I just need to get rid of .... tube tester Hichock 600 A and one heck of a lot of tubes ... which I have tested using the tester... and culled out the non working.. some NOS... all test good...

[JoeE SP9]

Welcome to AR wessongroup. What's replacing the Maggy's?

[harley .guy07]

jimmy m, I agree with harley .guy. The GFA-545 Series I or II have always been my favorite of all Adcom amps. I am biased in this. I have 2 Series I's. With the going rate for them around $200 they're a no brainer for used gear.

Yeah I did quite a bit of listening and comparing back in the 90's when Adcom first came out with the 5000 series line of amps and even went so far as to take the top plates off to dissect the components and found that the 545 series 1 and 2 to be a cleaner design and cooler running amp than the 5400 was and the same with the 535 and 5300. On the flip side of this I think the 5500 and 5800 had something that was above the 555 and 565 in terms of sound quality. This is just my opinion and my tasts but in the lower power series I would go 500 series and the higher powered the 5000 series but through all the Adcom amps I have heard and I used to manage a shop that sold them so I have extensive knowledge of them the 545 series 2 was my favorite sounding and most balanced out of them all and just to show how I feel about that amp I bought the demo model which was the last one we could get at the shop from the shop owner and still run it today running my 2 Dynaudio towers and I will say it sounds sweet with them. Now when I get my separate preamp in then we will be talking.

[harley .guy07]

In fact I should go and buy a couple more sense they are selling for so little now just in case but the only downside to the 545 series 2 is that they are not bridgeable so I could not run them as monoblocks. That kinda sucks because I love the way they sound and if I could run my Dyn's with 2 of them one for each side it would be power heaven at a reasonable price. And just for the knowledge Musical Design/Musical Concepts does do modifications on Adcom amps and from what I have heard can make them into something out of this world.

[luckydoggoldminer]

A good amp to look at is the older marantz five channel mm 9000. At 150 watts you will notice about twice the volume before it distorts. Reduce the bass and treble controls to around flat or twelve o clock. Then if you go five channel music or video your covered with a good amp/

[thekid]

I have extensive knowledge of them the 545 series 2 was my favorite sounding and most balanced out of them all and just to show how I feel about that amp I bought the demo model which was the last one we could get at the shop from the shop owner and still run it today running my 2 Dynaudio towers and I will say it sounds sweet with them. Now when I get my separate preamp in then we will be talking.

HG

Glad to hear your thoughts on the 545 II. It is the amp in my main system matched with a GFP-555.

[jimmy m]

Well fellas, I picked up a 545 for $150 and $45 shipping. So I guess I came out ok. Now all I have to do is hook it up. And again please excuse my ignorance, but there is only one place to connect the speakers, so does this mean I can only connect one set through this amp and I need another amp for the other set of speakers or can you run both sets of speakers off of the one pair on the Adcom.? I feel so dumb about this. Also I am assuming I connect the rca jack from the left and right channel input of the Adcom to the PRE-OUT on my marantz receiver., leaving the MAIN-IN open?

[Mr Peabody]

Yes, RCA from receivers front pre outs to 545's RCA inputs and only one set of speakers.

I just saw a 555 on CL for $400.00 and was tempted for a second but then remembered all the gear I still have sitting around :)

Let us know how that 545 sounds.

[thekid]

Jimmy M

Congrats on the 545 I think you paid a fair price for it and I think you will like it.
If you want to run a second pair of speakers off of it you might want to consider getting a speaker selector. Often you can hook up 3-6 pairs of speakers to a single selector. That does not mean you play 3-6 sets at the same time but with the push of a button you can select which speaker you want to listen to. Adcom makes a pretty good one among others that you can pick up off of E-Bay for around $20-$30 in most cases.

[jimmy m]

The Adcom is hooked up and sounds great. Wanted to wait until I got my 12 guage Belden before I discriminated and I must confess the sound quality has vastly improved. I can only imagine what you guys with the super equipment must be listening to. I personally have lost a little upper frequency range in my listening ability when I saw The Who in 1970, unfortunately true story, as I had to be in the absolute front of a surging group of people. People passing out, bodies being passed onto the stage, it was total mayhem, but for me just another concert, only couldnt hear a thing the next day, and consequently have hearing loss in one ear, probably the one facing Townshend. Anyway, I had been considering a preamp to match the adcom yet I so love the lights from the Marantz and the sound it produces. What do you think? (Oh by the way the Marantz had been gone through with new capacitors etc. Jim) The overall sound now especially at the higher volumes has become much more clear and distortion free, which I was looking for to begin with. I think value wise you all have pointed me in the right direction. I also have a question as to whether I could run 2 power amps off the Marantz, so there is one for each set of speakers. Would I gain anything by doing this, or can I even do this since there is only one Pre-Out, Main-In on the Marantz. And thats kind of why I wonder if a seperate preamp would handle 2 amps. I think you guys know what I'm getting at.
I also want to remind you that this is totally for my audio sound system. My home theater is seperate and located in a different room. Mostly because of my music library is fairly extensive.

[JoeE SP9]

Please don't take this question the wrong way.
Why do you want to run four speakers when stereo is only 2 channels? I can understand if you had 4 of the same model. Stacking Advents (for example) has been done for a while. However, running four speakers almost always ruins imaging and sound stage.

Yes, you could run two power amps by using 2 Y connectors. Bear in mind this will case a reduction in the load the preamp is working into. If the interconnects are short it should work fine. Trying it won't hurt whatever preamp you're using.

[jimmy m]

Thanks for getting back to me Joe. Nothing other than I have 2 speakers in the front wall corners and 2 in the back wall corners and it possbly seems like its a more enveloping sound when you are surrounded by sound, much like when the quad systems were first introduced. And again I could be completely off the charts with this one. Are you saying I should stack the speakers in one plane for equally good sound? I guess I didn't know about the imaging becoming ruined. I do notice with the new amp I definitely have more depth to the sound but for some reason when I also get sound off the back wall it increases the experience, and I repeat I could be way out on this one but I have the space to do it, and maybe it is but a fictional surround type sound which I have created. You tell me; you are the guru, certainly not me. If you had read from the beginning this thread you will realize what a novice I am in regards to trying to produce a better sound environment for myself on a budget of an old man. Cheers my friend. I really do appreciate all the help I have been getting on this.

[JoeE SP9]

Where to start!
Speakers in corners make the bass boomy. The only speakers that belong in corners are ones designed for corner placement such as Klipschorns.

Two speakers properly set up will give a soundstage that extends laterally beyond them on the sides and deeper (as much as 10 or 20 feet) than the wall behind them.

Four speakers are for surround or multichannel sources. Adding two more speakers in the rear producing the same left and right signals will make a good soundstage almost impossible. Two channel music is recorded mixed and mastered to sound best when played back on two speakers sitting in front of you.

Speakers usually sound their best when placed on stands that raise the tweeters to ear level when seated. Every "bookshelf" speaker ever made will sound better on some kind of stand.

Setting speakers up properly will lessen the need or desire for tone controls equalizers and other "sound enhancement" devices.

With good sound most of the time less is more.

Generally they should be one to two feet away from walls. This is especially important if they have rear ports. I have found when the distance between them is ~70% the listening distance you get the imaging and staging.

There are lots of other tweaks but these are the basics.

BTW: I too am an old man. I retired in September 2009.

[jimmy m]

So, do I scrap the RE-30s and just run with the DX-9's which are more or less a floor speaker due to their weight and size. Or should they somehow be elevated slightly also. I mean I do like their sound, and will move them out from the wall to attempt to maximize sound. I do still listen to all generes of music, largely due to the fact that I program music for a local radio station. I used to do the Vietnam Vets Show until we changed the format, just to give you an idea of what I play and listen to, so yes I do play it loud, probably the main reason I have 4 speakers and just added the adcom. I don't have the state of the art stuff, like you guys but just some old stuff that still sounds pretty good. I will take your advice and disconnect the back speakers rearrange things and see what happens. Thank you for being patient with me. I would have never gotten this kind of information anywhere but a forum like this, so I really do appreciate input. And, congratulations by the way on your retirement. Mine was a little premature due to an accident.

[Mr Peabody]

Glad the Adcom is doing the trick. Man, the Who in the 70's I can only imagine. Looking back you can probably say not worth the hearing loss but as we all find out who attend concerts we don't know the damage until it's done. I finally got me a pair of musician ear plugs for those concerts that reach the volume your clothes move whether you are standing still or not :)

[blackraven]

I can relate to the hearing loss from the Who concert. I sat second row at the Nassau Colliseum in Long Island NY back in the Early 70's for a Crosby,Stills and Nash Concert with Poco as the front band. My ears rang for days.

[jimmy m]

Hi guys - Peabody,Raven, Kid, Poultrydude, harleyguy and everyone I forgot to include,
OK heres the latest. Got the Adcom 545, very soon blew out the fuse which was an AGC-3 where on the back of the amp it calls for a 6 amp. Replaced it with a 5 and blew out an inside fuse. So for some weird reason I got a Adcom GFS-3, thinking that if I potentialy fry something it will be protected by the speaker switch box and also got a Soundcraftsmen Dx-4000 preamp with a Soundcraftsmen 2205-600 equalizer since there is no tone control on the 4000 all in order to protect my Marantz, and I know, probably not necessary, but its what I did, good price, etc, so please bear with me. Now nothings blowing but at high volume the Adcom smells like an electrical fire is under way. What is going on? Do I need 2 seperate amps, like another 545 or 5400 for 1 of the 2 sets of speakers which I have now stacked in order to get the imagery or should I just get a higher amperage power amp, maybe a 555? Remember, I'm powering a couple sets of old C. Vegas, RE-30s and Dx-9s. Help, I'm a moron.

[Mr Peabody]

I would only run one pair of speakers off the amp. The switcher may help if it keeps the impedance from going much below 4 ohms some how.

[jimmy m]

So if i want to run both sets, you're saying to power each set by individual amps. Thats kind of what I'm thinking. Correct?

[Mr Peabody]

Correct, one amp per set of speakers. It the preamp only has one set of outputs you may have to use a Y adaptor.

[jimmy m]

There is a second output called (bridged) so I am assuming thats cool for another amp. I guess my question is, am I better off getting another amp or just 1 amp with larger amperage.

[Mr Peabody]

You are better off with two amps. It's not the wattage, it's the impedance. The 545 should be good into 4 ohms but using two sets of speakers must be putting more demand on it than it can handle. So get one more amp so each amp sees it's own load. If each amp has it's own load they will be stable, no blowing fuses. If you get one amp just more power it could still blow fuses. I mean you could get one to do the job like a Bryston or Krell but you are talking major investment.

[jimmy m]

Thanks Peabody, it really seems the direction or should I say the absorption that I'm getting through my limited research. It's by far more easy getting info from you guys who have an inkling, thank you.

[jimmy m]

I still question the fact that when I turn down the volume, it doesn't seem to make a difference as far as whether I have 2 sets of speakers or 1 as to what the total volume output is. I mean if i switch from 1 set to 2 sets of speakers it really makes no difference as to how loud it sounds.

[thekid]

I still question the fact that when I turn down the volume, it doesn't seem to make a difference as far as whether I have 2 sets of speakers or 1 as to what the total volume output is. I mean if i switch from 1 set to 2 sets of speakers it really makes no difference as to how loud it sounds.

I am not sure that volume is really a concern. At most listening levels the 545 is going to try and keep the volume consistent despite the number of speakers. Think of most HT theaters which are powering 5 speakers and then you switch to stereo mode. In the majority of cases there is not a perceptible volume gain just switching the number of speakers.

I am not familiar with how efficient CV's or what ohms they are but that could be an issue. The 545 can run a single pair of speakers down to 4 ohms but running 2 pairs at the same time is probably too much as Mr.P has suggested. I would think if all the damage was was a few blown fuses the smell you describe should go away soon. If not you might have something else going on and you might need to get that 545 in for some service. Also it is always a good idea when replacing fuses to replace with the correct fuse. If they want a 6amp fuse in there you need to put a 6 amp fuse back in there. no sense in causing major repairs over a fuse that costs less than a dollar in most cases.

[jimmy m]

The smell that I am smelling is from the adcom heating up. It gets pretty warm to the touch at high volumes, like 3/4 on the volume dial. I guess its probably working too hard. So it looks like back into the market for another amp so each speaker set has its own power. The majority of the time I'm only at about 1/4 volume, and everything is fine.

[jimmy m]

OK fellas here we go again, try to follow me along. Now I have a Soundcraftsmen DX4000 preamp connected from "lineout normal" to "(linein) input from amp receiver" connection of Soundcraftsmen 2205-600equalizer. Then from the equalizer "(lineout) output to amp receiver" connection to adcom gfa 545 input. Also there is 2 speaker sets connected to an adcom gfs-3 speaker switch that connects to the power amp via one set of wires. Question. How do I integrate another amp into the system so each set of speakers work independently off of each amp. I guess I don't see how to connect another amp to the equalizer which is connected to the preamp. I realize I would have to eliminate the speaker switch to add another amp for each set of speakers but I'm lost on how to connect another amp. I know I'm probably confusing you. But am I just better off selling the 545 and moving into a 555 or 5500 and having a single amp or can this be done if I got another 545 or 5400 for a 2 amp system.

[Mr Peabody]

You would need a Y adaptor at the output of the EQ, one male RCA to two female. With the male to the EQ and one set of female to each amp.

[jimmy m]

Peabody, you are always there. Thank you. I kind of thought that was the solution but I didn't know if there was some sort of possibilty of frying something. I didn't think so since you are running through the pre and eq before it hits the power. Thanks again!

[jimmy m]

OK Peabody and all. I picked up another adcom. This time a 555. I thought I would run the DX9's off the 555 and the RE 30's off the 545. Question. Because I am running off a y-jack and there is only 1 volume control. Will there be a discernable difference between volume output from one set of speakers to the other set? Or maybe at this point I should run both sets of speakers off the 555 and sell the 545 for maybe a different toy?
The 555 is being shipped as we talk.

[Mr Peabody]

Run the RE30 off the 555, the RE30 is only 97dB efficient and run the DX9 off the 545 it is 101dB efficient. There still might be some difference but this set up should help. The speaker at 101dB will play louder than 97dB with the same input power. You can try using just the 555 but I think running two pairs of speakers you have an impedance issue not a power issue. Unless you have a huge room I'd think just one pair with the 555 should give you plenty of SPL. If you are going to use both sets use both amps I think you will be happy with the result. I would also try going straight from the preamp first then add the EQ to see if the EQ is causing any issues. Sometimes when you want a hard hitting bass try turning the bass down. The largest mistake I see with subs or back when EQ's were popular guys always thought more is better, but what happens is the bass gets over driven and murky, it loses detail and the amp loses any reserve power. So back off the bass and lose the rumble and gain some punch. If your preamp has a "loudness" control, turn it off when listening at high volume. Good listening and let me know how the set up works out.

[jimmy m]

You are so entirely right about the sound. Now the problem is no matter what I do there is absolutely no punch from the bass.

[jimmy m]

OK, I reconfigured. Now I'm going directly from the preamp to the power amp and added the EQ to a different loop. It seems to help. I can just turn the loop off if I choose. I like this setup better. Sounds better too. Also now it will allow me to go directly to the 2nd amp by means of an autobridge input, rather than coming off the EQ with a y jack to accomodate both amps.
Really and truly I'm still not completely satisfied with the bass. It just seems like the bass should be crisper or cleaner with that thumping punch. I just can't seem to get it.
I had a buddy tell me I need a seperate subwoofer speaker. The speakers I have it seems should be capable of putting out the bass I'm looking for. What do you think? Any more ideas or solutions.

[JoeE SP9]

Not to sound like a spoilsport but, is the sound you're looking for actually in your source material?

What specific piece or pieces of music sound deficient in bass to you? If you're listening to modern popular recordings most of them don't have any low bass. Most rock recordings of the 70's and 80's are also in that category.

[jimmy m]

Yes Joe, the vast majority of music is rock related stuff. But I mean even reggae, which typically has a lot of bass sounds muddled to me. It just seems like it should be more crisp. I don't know how else to describe it.

[Mr Peabody]

Jimmy, are all the speakers in phase? Meaning make sure red (+) on the amp is to red (+) on the speaker and same with black (-). A speaker out of phase will decrease your bass response.

I'm not sure where the problem is but I can tell you it's not the Adcom amps. Do you have the same problem with just one pair of speakers working? If your speakers are decent you should be getting romping bass, 12's & 15's driven by Adcom..... Also, try with just one amp hooked up it could be the preamp output doesn't have quite enough voltage to supply to two amps. Subs typically are for very low frequencies and won't help much in midbass punch.

[JoeE SP9]

Have you tried it without the eqaulizer?

[jimmy m]

OK Joe, I attempted that by actually not running the preamp through the eaulizer to the power amp but rather the pre to power amp adding the EQ in on a seperate loop from the preamp where I can either run it or eliminate it. You are the guy to ask if I was to add a sub in the back would that ruin the imagery? I mean the DX9 has a 15" woofer and the RE-30s a 12" which in my estimation should be substantial without adding a sub. I can pick up a Paradigm PDR12 for a reasonable price. Or even a Bic 12. I really don't know if it is necessary.
And yes Peabody everything is copasetic as far as being in phase. Maybe there is to low a frequency and I am tring to obtain more of the mid bass punch, sounds right. I could hook up the old Marantz as a seperate pre amp so each amp has its own power amp. One with the Souindcraftsmen, and one with the Marantz.

[Mr Peabody]

No, do not hook both the preamp and Marantz at the same time, always only use one or the other. You should try the Marantz preamp outputs though to see if it's a better sound than the Soundcraftsmen.

I have not heard those speakers before but have been told they are Disco/R&R speakers/frat party etc. So it's hard to imagine what the problem is. Adcom is known for having heavy bass response. Where are your speakers placed in the room?

It could be that although the CV are efficient you aren't getting good quality low impact, a sub may help, any way to try before buying? You'd almost have to use the speaker lead connections since already running two amps.

[Mr Peabody]

One other thought, are your amps plugged directly into the wall? Sometimes those AC filtering devices limit current which starves a power amp.

Also, remind me what you are using for CD playback.

[jimmy m]

Its just that the Soundcraftsman is so much more versatile where I can't do everything I want to do through the Marantz (like adding in the Eq if I want. The Souncraftman as a ton of inputs and capability to autobridge the 2 power amps. Although using the Marantz bare without the EQ, yes I'm sure it has better sound - deeper.
The amps are plugged directly in the wall. The cd player is a Denon CDR W-1500.
Don't misinterpret me on this. I mean I get alot of bass response. But to me it doesnt sound real where someone is standing in front of me playing a bass. It just seems muddled and doesn't have that pulse or push from a bass guitar. I think its lacking in mid bass possibly, if I'm understanding what your saying.
The speakers are placed about 10-12' apart stacked for the imagery, which I do get now (Joe). And they are out from the wall about a foot

[jimmy m]

If you mean the speaker lead connections from the sub, I could also get around that by running it through the adcom speaker selector switch I have which I no longer use.

[Mr Peabody]

What does that "auto bridge" do? I haven't heard of that and wonder if that could be an issue.

If the Marantz has a "tape monitor" which I'm sure it does, you can easily hook the EQ into that. Tape monitor on, EQ in the signal path, tape monitor off, EQ out of the loop.

[jimmy m]

It just allows me to hook up 2 amps at a time through another set of inputs for amp connections specifically. At least that was my interpretation. I was running one amp before with no problem through it with pretty much the same results. As far as the Marantz goes, I've pretty much exhausted the inputs with a tascam 202mkIII and the cd player in tape2 since its old enough not to have a specific input for cd. Phono Yamaha YP-D6 and Dynalab FT-101 (not the etude dang it) still nice in the other inputs. The Soundcraftsmen isn't the problem,its fine.

[Mr Peabody]

I tried to find some info on the auto bridging but no luck. What worries me "bridging" means to make an amp mono. One thread I found led me to believe that feature requires an additional module but couldn't be sure. If the preamp has a regular output you might try it to see if any difference. From comments I found it does seem the Soundcraftsmen are decent, your EQ should also have some type of lighting system which helps not to overdrive or clip your amps. Another guy mentioned the phono stage was a weak point, saying it was harsh. Keep in mind these are comments from other forums.

[Jim Eck]

Here is a good source of information about your Adcoms. http://www.adcom-usa.com/adcom-user-guides

I agree with Mr. Peabody, typically when you bridge an amplifier you are creating a mono-block that will power only one speaker.

I am curious about your Cerwin Vegas, both models you have have some age to them, unless you have replaced the surrounds I would suspect that at best they are weak, they could be bad, both models use the foam type surrounds and are known to sufer from foam rot, also you might check to see if the voice coils are still strong. I have an old pair of HED's that the voice coil got weak enought that it would rub, inverting the speaker helped but did not fix the problem. Replacing surrounds is an easy fix, there is a lot of information on doing the repair yourself, as well as many places to acquire the required surrounds.

Most amplifiers don't perform well if you must turn the volume up past the 12:00 position, you are probably under powered for what you are trying to accomplish, the bass will sufer first, you will also begin to clip which is not good for the amp or the speakers, dirty ower ruins more speakers than overpowering them with clean power.

You might consider selling one of the Adcoms and replacing it with one that matches the one you kepep, then only run one set of speakers but do then bridge the amplifiers into a pair of mono blocks, this will greatly increase your power output and increase your bass response.

A GFA 555 is 200 wpc into 8 ohms that is a considerable amount of power, a pair of Adcom 555's bidged would be 600 wpc into 8 ohm, I have a pair of briged Soundcraftsmen 860's into 600 wpc, you should never find out what the pair are able to do, I use the two to DJ at a local bar and have never even come close to the 600 watts.

Good luck, Jim

[Jim Eck]

Something else that might help is to tip the speakers back (your DX-9's), not a lot but maybe put a 2X4 under the front of the speaker to tip it back, don't let it be against the wall, see what you think, it will change the sound.

Jim

[jimmy m]

Thanks Jim. When I take the grills off the front of the speakers, they look brand new. I mean I dont see a single crack or wear, dirt, dust, or anything in the surrounds. But maybe its a problem you cant visibly see. That is always a possibility, and worth consideration. As far as tipping them back, right now they are stacked for imagery and sit like 6' or more tall. I know what you're saying though as far as changing the sound when tilted.
As far as the autobridge, what it says is where I run the (line out normal) of the preamp to the power amp; there is another (line output inverted) that runs to the second amp. Each power amp has its own set of speakers.
I'm starting to wonder if the problem is with my hearing, jeez. I just don't feel the bass, like I think I should.

[JoeE SP9]

Try putting a couple of cinder block under each stack. If they do the trick you can then invest in some stands. Virtually all "bookshelf" speakers sound better on stands that elevate them so the tweeters are at ear level when seated,

The autobridge is for another identical amp. Don't attempt to use it with any other amps. It allows you to run two identical stereo power amps as mono blocks. In the best of worlds bridging an amp should result in an output four times the single channel output. Doubling (that's what happens) the voltage swing means four times as much power. In the real word (most amps) you'll get around three times the single channel output.

[Mr Peabody]

JM, try hooking only one amp into your normal preamp output and then try hooking the same to the "inverted" one to see if you hear any difference. "Invert" means to reverse, I'm really wondering about the hook up. You could even try hooking your Y adapter into the normal output to see if things improve.

[jimmy m]

So by no means hook up an amp to the normal and the other to the inverted? Am I going to fry something or what is going on? The amps have to be exactly the same? I mean if worse comes to worse I can go back to the y idea. And I guess I can always sell the 545 and look for another 555, in which at that point I probably only need the one amp.

[Mr Peabody]

You said you have an issue with your system, I'm merely suggesting things you might do to find out what the issue is. Naturally, if one output is one way and the other says "inverted" that would throw up a flag. It may not mean anything but you won't know if you don't experiment. You can't be sure it's correct nor could I find any info on that "bridging" feature. If you are satisfied with your system or tired of dealing with it just say so.

It makes absolutely no difference what so ever using the two different models in regards to your bass issue. If you hooked them up as I suggested, the most powerful amp to the least efficient speaker then you should be able to tell by listening if there's one set still drowning out the other, you may have to stand in front of them and move your head up and down to each to evaluate if they sound about even. One amp on one set of speakers is the safest way to go. With the CV's sensitivity and the amount of power you have they should be hearing your system on the next block.

Just guessing again at the inverting thing but if that is referring to phase your top set of speakers may be out of phase with the bottom which would decrease your bass quality significantly.

[harley .guy07]

I have personally heard the DX-9's off of both a 555 and 5500 adcom and 2 pairs running off of a 5800 and believe me that when I heard them bass was more than plentiful!!!. almost too much for some music but the customer I had at the time wanted that PA system type of sound with a lot of power and that is what he got(and everyone on his block).

[jimmy m]

I do understand Peabody. I got a little apprehensive when Joe said not to use the pre without having 2 amps of the same. The only reson I haven't already tried the various combinations is I have this idea that something will shell due to my stupidity. But now I feel more confident and I'll let her rip. Yes I will take your advice and Try to discern between every combination humanly possible. I'm sure I'll hit upon something to my satisfaction at some point. Being a perfectionist really sucks. When I strike gold you will be the first to know. Thanks again so much for your help. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Everyone has been great.

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, keep us posted on what you try and the outcome. I wish I could find something on that output to see if that's even a concern.

[Jim Eck]

I think we are trying to answer the wrong question.

I think he is looking for club sound.

Jim

This can be done, how do you lke your neighbors?

Look at more power and a range expander.

[JoeE SP9]

I may have misunderstood something. Is the inverted output jack on your preamp? If so that's to drive only Soundcraftsman power amps switched to bridged mode. If you are using an inverted and a regular output reverse the speaker wires on only one speaker.
I wouldn't use the inverted output for anything but Soundcraftsman power amps. Use only the regular left and right outputs.

[Mr Peabody]

The 555 is 200x2 into 8 ohms and the speakers are 101 & 98dB efficient, no need for more power. Not tomention a 2nd amp of 125x2.

[Jim Eck]

And a pair of 555's bridged is 600 wpc into 8 ohms. I run a pair of 250 wpc into 8 ohm amplifiers into a pair of Legacy Classics one for the highs and mids and the other for the low end, I also run a pair of 600 watt mono blocks for use in bars, For sound quality the Adcom and Hafler are the winners, For the beat you in the chest thump they won't keep up with 600 wpc into 8 ohm Soundcraftsmen,

Earlier it was mentioned about incomming ac power, running a pair of power amps that have the potential to draw what the Adcoms can at the volumes the op is saying, he is having a voltage drop, I don't know if it is enough to damage the amps. I had to run seperate circuits for each of my amps, when I had them on one circuit you could see a significant voltage drop on the power conditioners meter.

Just like the car that pulled up next to you with the rusty fenders flopping in the wind and vibrating to heck, it takes a lot of power to move enough air to make your seat vibrate and make you wish the light would hurry up and change.

And yes what JoeE SP9 is saying is correct the auto-bridge is meant for the Soundcraftsmen amplifiers to be bridged, don't use it with other amplifiers. If you are using the auto-bridge you are probably out of phase.

Jim

[jimmy m]

OK by jove we've got it!!!! Jeez, I really don't understand what the initial problem was. I started from the ground up disconnected everything, restacked the componenets, reconnected them with the most heavy duty jacks I could, mostly the gold ones, and used the Peabodys Y-jack idea with the dual Adcoms hooking the 555 to the RE-30s and the 545 to the DX-9s. Actually that seems to sound the best to me out of all the variables. But somewhere along the way the bass began to knock me on my butt. 1/4 volume is plenty and I don't think I could even go over 1/2 without serious Who concert damage to my auditory canals. Wow, the only thing I can figure out is I had a bad connect somewhere along the way, and the inverted input was defiitely a no-no. I can tell you there is no need for an additional subwoofer. Cudos to all of your analyzation help. Happy days are here again. I am so pumped - can you tell? Thanks a million everybody!!!

__________________________________________________ ________________________


Soundcraftsmen DX-4000
Soundcraftsmen SG-2205-600
Adcom GFA-545
Adcom GFA-555
Denon CDR-W1500
Tascam 202 MK-III
Dynalab FT101
Yamaha YP D-6
Cerwin Vega RE-30s
Cerwin Vega DX-9s

Just had to do that, to have some fun with you guys!! Adios mi amigos!

[Mr Peabody]

I told you that system should be romping :) Glad to hear the issue is resolved and you can get back to some rocking & rolling.

[harley .guy07]

yeah the Adcom to Cerwin Vega thing is something that we used to sell a lot of back when I sold audio for the shear volume and dynamics that they would deliver while the amp sit there and laughed about it and did not strain at all. I had a lot of happy loud listeners back then with these setups, even though overall they were not my cup of tea they did hammer the bass and could rock the block!!!!

[Mr Peabody]

Same with us and the Infinity Studio Monitors, they were about as efficient as CV, not my thing but we sold them like crazy because they got loud with little effort. At the time our big amps were the Kenwood Basic series. We later had some Proton and Carver but I personally would take an Adcom over either of those. The Infinity RS sounded so much better but people then just gravitated to the larger woofers and more raw sound.

[JoeE SP9]

I love it when a plan comes together!

[Jim Eck]

Glad to hear it is working for you.

Jim

[thekid]

Teamwork!!
Great To hear everything worked out.

[jimmy m]

OK fellas, just an update from concert central. As you know already I had revamped so the CV's are stacked and about a foot from the wall, and got a hair to buy a couple of subs mainly because I again got a great deal on them. I placed them on the outsides of the 2 stacks of speakers. One is a front firing 12" Bic Acoustech H-100 500 watt, the other is a floor firing 15" AR 400 watt. The reason I got 2 different types was becuse I wanted a mix of dynamics, so to speak, as far as the sound goes. And I have to tell you it is fabulous. The depth and imagery is fantastic. Its like the band is right in front of you. You can actually pick where each person is standing. And the added depth to the bass is a little more of what I was looking for. I reconnected the 2 subs and DX9's to the 555 through a Adcom GFS-3 speaker switch, and the RE30s to the 245. Every thing seems to be better balanced that way. With the RE 30s off the ground 36" they needed to be backed off a bit, thats why I connected the 245 to them. Now everything seems to be more copasetic. Make sense? It sure sounds terrific this way anyway, not to say it was bad before, just not quite as good. Tweaking is fun! Thanks again for everyones input, it has been fun and I think this venture has just begun rather then be over. Onward and upward we go.

Blasting, billowing, bursting through with the power of ten million butterfly sneezes.
Man, with his flaming fire has conquered the wayward breezes climbing to tranquility far above the cloud conceiving the heaven clear of misty shroud.

inspired by the moon landing, 1969 Moody Blues Higher and Higher
remember?

[Mr Peabody]

Good to hear you reached some satisfaction. The foundation should be rocking :)