Onkyo goes Retro

[jrhymeammo]

I think the amp looks pretty bad azz...

From what Onkyo has offered for as long as I know, $2500 for the amp or $5700 for the entire set seem astronomical.. What do you think?

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/04/onkyos-latest-hifi-stereo-separates-go-retro/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/01/onkyo113000-5000-7000300md.jpg

Happy New Year and Have Fun,
JRA

[RoyY51]

All it needs are blue back-lights...

[harley .guy07]

Well with the fact that Onkyo has their reputation built around mid to upper level receivers and for the most part concentrate on the lower level stuff and let their Integra part of their company handle the higher end stuff. I think it will be hard for people to take this stuff seriously since this is out of character for them to make this price of equipment especially two channel stuff.

[bobsticks]

Well with the fact that Onkyo has their reputation built around mid to upper level receivers and for the most part concentrate on the lower level stuff and let their Integra part of their company handle the higher end stuff. I think it will be hard for people to take this stuff seriously since this is out of character for them to make this price of equipment especially two channel stuff.

This is all true but I'd still love to hear 'em and wouldn't dismiss the trio until having done so.

[devuonoste]

Wow!

I love the look of that amp! I'd love to audition that setup.

[atomicAdam]

Isn't STtT a fan? Maybe he will hear these before other - unless they are CES..

[harley .guy07]

good point and I myself would not dismiss without hearing as well but I have just heard too many people that are "high end" brands only dismiss great products that would fit their systems nicely but it does not have that high end name plate on it. Me myself I look at things for what they are and try to stay non biased as far as a brand until I have heard it for myself. I know a few high end name dropper products that I have heard several times that do nothing for me and have also heard some mid line stuff that blew me away as far as sound but I will admit it is a departure from the look that Onkyo has had for quite some time that I have seen.

[thekid]

Nice mix of the past and present.

[Feanor]

I think the amp looks pretty bad azz...

From what Onkyo has offered for as long as I know, $2500 for the amp or $5700 for the entire set seem astronomical.. What do you think?

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/04/onkyos-latest-hifi-stereo-separates-go-retro/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/01/onkyo113000-5000-7000300md.jpg

Happy New Year and Have Fun,
JRA
I like the look, but I'd like it better in SILVER -- or light champagne like, say, this Accuphase. Regards the price, I'd really need to be persuaded that Onkyo was worth that kinda money, (even though I'm enjoying my new Onkyo HT receiver).

http://www.accuphase.com/model/photo/a-45.jpg

[TheHills44060]

I especially like the ergonomics of the preamp because I love large functional dials but I agree with both harley and sticks. They deserve an unbiased audition however I will most likely be one of those people blowing them off. Unfair, I know. Onkyo lost my attention when their build quality (including Integra models) dropped off here in the US going into the early 90's. In a much cheaper price bracket they would have definitely peaked my interest for any Onkyo loyalist moving from an HT receiver to their first set of separates.

Is Integra a completely different division from Onkyo now? I just looked up a few recent Integra products online and none of them had Onkyo badges. I always remember Onkyo having products lines where the top most models would either have a gold Integra badge (or sometimes white silkscreen) adjacent to the Onkyo badge.

[basite]

I like the look, but I'd like it better in SILVER -- or light champagne like, say, this Accuphase. Regards the price, I'd really need to be persuaded that Onkyo was worth that kinda money, (even though I'm enjoying my new Onkyo HT receiver).

http://www.accuphase.com/model/photo/a-45.jpg


Yes!

I was going to follow your opinion, and say they really should do this too...

but apparently,

http://www.highend-anlage.de/files/imagecache/gross/files/images_highend/OnkyoM-5000R.jpg

They already have :D

I also found pics with the same white lights like in the pics above...
I wonder how it would look, if they had used the same green/blueish lights as the old Onkyo & integra amps :)

Also found this:

http://www.avland.co.uk/aasp/onkyo/1020/m5000r/internallrg.jpg

Looks pretty good too, dual power supplies, symmetrical buildup, fairly small power amp stages though, usually in amps of this caliber, you see the heatsinks & power amp boards over the full lenght. But still, for a 80W/ch @8ohm, beefy amp :)

One thing that leaves me with a question is the power consumption: 280W, for the 230V version, that's barely more than 1A. Either it is REALLY efficient, or the rating is off. Also, at 4ohms it can put out 150 watts, 170 watts dynamic, x2, which is more than the power consumption... strange...

Also found a pic of the rear, looked good, good quality binding posts and all, you can also run it bridged, as a big mono amp. Only one remark, and you can see this too on the internal pic:

There is only one XLR input, so this means you can only run the amp in balanced operation when you bridge it, which makes sense, somehow, because bridging it makes it a fully balanced amplifier too, however, most amps that offer XLR do offer them for stereo use too...

Anyway, I'm pretty impressed, seeing this from Onkyo, reminds me of the big Integra amps with big meters from back then :), I wonder how they sound...
then again, in the early 90's there was this (http://audio-database.com/ONKYO/amp/m-510-e.html), a 72kg monster.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[harley .guy07]

That 4ohm rms power vs dynamic power rating does not leave much headroom is these ratings are the true ratings but you are right the power input ratings do not match the output capability and that by no means seems right something is amiss with the ratings somewhere.

[Woochifer]

Well with the fact that Onkyo has their reputation built around mid to upper level receivers and for the most part concentrate on the lower level stuff and let their Integra part of their company handle the higher end stuff. I think it will be hard for people to take this stuff seriously since this is out of character for them to make this price of equipment especially two channel stuff.

Definitely not out of character for them for anyone who remembers their Grand Integra line from the 1980s. Basite links to it, but here's another pic of one of the monster amps from that lineup. That link also indicates that the inflation-adjusted price for this amp would be $8,000 in today's dollars.

http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/m-510-in.jpg

In a recent review, Stereophile indicated those Onkyo amps were competitive with the Krell and Mark Levinson models of that era. Those gold-toned Grand Integras were also popular at high end audio shows, particularly in the early home theater demos (this was before the advent of multichannel receivers, and right when the first consumer Dolby Surround decoders became available). I recall one setup using a Novabeam front projection TV, and the audio driven by a pair of monobridged Onkyo Grand Integras, with surrounds driven by another two-channel Onkyo amp.

[pixelthis]

Considering my experience with Onkyo, I don't have any difficulty accepting these
components.
The pre-amp has nice touches like USB, Burr brown dacs, etc.
Why weren't these issued under the Integra line? Because Onkyo, like a lot of Japanese
manufacturers, sold out to the mass market. Can't blame them, thats where the money
was.
Now they have crawled out of the back alley of the mass market they have been wallowing
in, and are trying to regain their audiophile name.
At least they are doing it right, with a honest 80 wpc for the power amp, and 450WPC
dynamic power.
And the price is not unreasonable for gear of this quality. But in this age of cheap stuff
from Emotiva and international chaos, it remains to be seen if they are successful.
Love to have the pre and power amps. THE CD player is nice but not needed.:1:

[harley .guy07]

Definitely not out of character for them for anyone who remembers their Grand Integra line from the 1980s. Basite links to it, but here's another pic of one of the monster amps from that lineup. That link also indicates that the inflation-adjusted price for this amp would be $8,000 in today's dollars.

http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/m-510-in.jpg

In a recent review, Stereophile indicated those Onkyo amps were competitive with the Krell and Mark Levinson models of that era. Those gold-toned Grand Integras were also popular at high end audio shows, particularly in the early home theater demos (this was before the advent of multichannel receivers, and right when the first consumer Dolby Surround decoders became available). I recall one setup using a Novabeam front projection TV, and the audio driven by a pair of monobridged Onkyo Grand Integras, with surrounds driven by another two-channel Onkyo amp.

that is good information but people look at what a company is doing overall and a lot of people will overlook it for something lesser than what it is I would say. I would love to hear this setup and see what it could do and for a company that its bread and butter now is home theater receivers to make separate components again is good and I hope they succeed but they will have to have someone that will back their ability to sell their ability and let people hear them. I have never said that they could not or should not do it really some of these brands need to get back into what made them good to begin with and getting back into 2 channel might help their name in the higher end world as far as audio guys go, I know there name is already good with HT and if they could amp up their name in 2 channel it would be a great thing. I have a friend that used to sell integra and oknyo that loved their stuff and does not use anything different and to me that is a statement to the quality of their HT receivers.

[Feanor]

Speaking of handsome LOOKING components, when in Costco I saw this very handsome Samsung HW-C700 7.1 receiver. The picture just doesn't do it justice: "in the flesh", the finish has a steely luster that is exceptionally gorgeous. And of course, the front panel simply couldn't get much sleeker -- one knob and a tiny 'ON' button; of course the bottom section folds down for more controls.

The unit is being sold with a similarly sleek Blu-ray player and Polk speakers.
...

[E-Stat]

I have just heard too many people that are "high end" brands only dismiss great products that would fit their systems nicely but it does not have that high end name plate on it.
More valid concerns are:

1. They have not been a consistent player. Look at their website today and you'll find four amps: two digital, one lightweight two channel and one multi-channel. So they made a few higher power models in the 80s and 90s. Then what?

2. They exhibit wildly optimistic power ratings. The 1984 Optima boasts 138% efficiency (1000 Watts @4 ohms with 720 watt consumption). Even the current PA-MC5500 only claims (an equally laughable) 96% efficiency for a non-switcher.

Such does not inspire confidence that they are able to compete with players who have been consistently in the game for decades.

rw

[E-Stat]

Isn't STtT a fan? Maybe he will hear these before other - unless they are CES..
Hopefully, Onkyo has thrown out all their past designs and started from a new slate. Regarding his Onks, here is what SirT said:

"John curl stated that he would and could make these amps sound 50 times betterthan they did new. He made them 100 times better sounding. "

If one guy can go in and modify parts with that level of improvement, then the guys back in Japan really need to redouble their efforts.

rw

[jrhymeammo]

Is Integra a completely different division from Onkyo now? I just looked up a few recent Integra products online and none of them had Onkyo badges. I always remember Onkyo having products lines where the top most models would either have a gold Integra badge (or sometimes white silkscreen) adjacent to the Onkyo badge.

I've been informed by a dealer (Hanson Audio) that the only difference between Onkyo and Integra Research was difference in capacitors used inside.
But, I thought Integra had co-developed gear with Balance Audio Technology and others, but I don't see any reference to BAT anymore.

[jrhymeammo]

Also found this:

http://www.avland.co.uk/aasp/onkyo/1020/m5000r/internallrg.jpg


There is only one XLR input, so this means you can only run the amp in balanced operation when you bridge it, which makes sense, somehow, because bridging it makes it a fully balanced amplifier too, however, most amps that offer XLR do offer them for stereo use too...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Great pic.

Just by looking at the picture, the amp looks balanced.
Maybe it difference underneath PS caps, but why would Onkyo put in symmetrical components then just 1 XLR input? Are they cutting corners? Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Whatchu think?

[Luvin Da Blues]

............Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Whatchu think?


I can....

http://www.marshsounddesign.com/a400s.html This sells for $2295 MSRP

[Hyfi]

Is Integra a completely different division from Onkyo now? I just looked up a few recent Integra products online and none of them had Onkyo badges. I always remember Onkyo having products lines where the top most models would either have a gold Integra badge (or sometimes white silkscreen) adjacent to the Onkyo badge.

Integra was just a upper line of Onkyo when it first came out. Somewhere down the line they split off, for financial reason more than likely. I still have an Onkyo Integra Cassette Deck where both names are on the face plate and everywhere else.

What I find odd is that these new units are NOT badged as Integra. Does that mean they will not really be all that great? Or does it mean that a unit badged as Onkyo will now be the same or better than one badged as Integra?

Is there anything new similar or better on the Integra front?

These guys do look real cool though.

[Feanor]

Great pic.

Just by looking at the picture, the amp looks balanced.
Maybe it difference underneath PS caps, but why would Onkyo put in symmetrical components then just 1 XLR input? Are they cutting corners? Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Whatchu think?
My Monarhy SM-70 Pro amps are the same: a single XLR input for fully balanced, monoblock operation
...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/MonarchySM70Pro-700.jpg

Bear in mind that almost all solid state amps, and many tube amps too, are "push-pull" i.e. balanced in their output stages.

As I understand it, (I wish somebody would correct me if I'm wrong), on input, single-ended signals must be split and one side inverted to feed the push-pull output stages. With true balanced input, the splitting and inversion can be bypassed. I suppose the bypassing is a bit easier to do in case the bridged operation (??).

[pixelthis]

Integra was just a upper line of Onkyo when it first came out. Somewhere down the line they split off, for financial reason more than likely. I still have an Onkyo Integra Cassette Deck where both names are on the face plate and everywhere else.

What I find odd is that these new units are NOT badged as Integra. Does that mean they will not really be all that great? Or does it mean that a unit badged as Onkyo will now be the same or better than one badged as Integra?

Is there anything new similar or better on the Integra front?

These guys do look real cool though.
If there is not an INTEGRA version there will probably be one soon.
Or ONKYO might just get slapped in this competitive segment of the market and slink on home.:1:

[pixelthis]

Speaking of handsome LOOKING components, when in Costco I saw this very handsome Samsung HW-C700 7.1 receiver. The picture just doesn't do it justice: "in the flesh", the finish has a steely luster that is exceptionally gorgeous. And of course, the front panel simply couldn't get much sleeker -- one knob and a tiny 'ON' button; of course the bottom section folds down for more controls.

The unit is being sold with a similarly sleek Blu-ray player and Polk speakers.
...

A home theater in the box by any other name...
THERE are companies that have been building gear for eons that I WILL NOT TOUCH.
Get back to me in fifty or so years(modern medicine allowing).:1:

[E-Stat]

Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.
Parasound makes one for about a grand. Halo A23 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHA23).

rw

[Woochifer]

Integra was just a upper line of Onkyo when it first came out. Somewhere down the line they split off, for financial reason more than likely. I still have an Onkyo Integra Cassette Deck where both names are on the face plate and everywhere else.

What I find odd is that these new units are NOT badged as Integra. Does that mean they will not really be all that great? Or does it mean that a unit badged as Onkyo will now be the same or better than one badged as Integra?

Is there anything new similar or better on the Integra front?

These guys do look real cool though.

This is nothing more than a supply chain technicality. Originally, the Grand Integra line was indeed Onkyo's cost-no-object product line. But, once Onkyo sold more of their stuff through mass merchandisers like Fry's and Circuit City, they needed a carrot to keep their specialty retailers from fleeing to other competitors. By rebranding their higher level gear (and rebadging some of their lower level products) as Integra, they keep a segment of their product out of the mass merchandising channels. It's no different than how Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Pioneer, etc. allow certain renumbered products into mass merchandising channels, but keep others out.

Consider this a lesson learned from JBL's disastrous entry into the mass market. When JBL introduced a new entry level speaker lineup, they also added mass merchandisers and discount stores to their dealer network. Once this happened, most of their independent specialty dealers dropped the entire JBL lineup.

One of the long-time dealers in my area said that he was a huge fan of JBL's products, but he won't support his competition, so he dropped JBL more than 25 years ago, picked up B&W and never looked back. JBL's blunder coincided with the ascent of the Canadian speaker manufacturers (e.g., Energy, Paradigm, PSB, et al) and other new full line manufacturers like Polk and Boston Acoustics, as a lot of former JBL dealers added those lines to their offerings. Even to this day, JBL still makes different lines of high end cost-no-object speakers, but good luck finding a dealer in North America that carries them.

The lesson here is that any manufacturer that decides to go mass market needs to take some steps to protect their specialty dealers, or risk getting their products dropped altogether.

[blackraven]

Great pic.

Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Whatchu think?

My Parasound Halo A21 is fully balanced at $2200

[pixelthis]

This is nothing more than a supply chain technicality. Originally, the Grand Integra line was indeed Onkyo's cost-no-object product line. But, once Onkyo sold more of their stuff through mass merchandisers like Fry's and Circuit City, they needed a carrot to keep their specialty retailers from fleeing to other competitors. By rebranding their higher level gear (and rebadging some of their lower level products) as Integra, they keep a segment of their product out of the mass merchandising channels. It's no different than how Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Pioneer, etc. allow certain renumbered products into mass merchandising channels, but keep others out.

Consider this a lesson learned from JBL's disastrous entry into the mass market. When JBL introduced a new entry level speaker lineup, they also added mass merchandisers and discount stores to their dealer network. Once this happened, most of their independent specialty dealers dropped the entire JBL lineup.

One of the long-time dealers in my area said that he was a huge fan of JBL's products, but he won't support his competition, so he dropped JBL more than 25 years ago, picked up B&W and never looked back. JBL's blunder coincided with the ascent of the Canadian speaker manufacturers (e.g., Energy, Paradigm, PSB, et al) and other new full line manufacturers like Polk and Boston Acoustics, as a lot of former JBL dealers added those lines to their offerings. Even to this day, JBL still makes different lines of high end cost-no-object speakers, but good luck finding a dealer in North America that carries them.

The lesson here is that any manufacturer that decides to go mass market needs to take some steps to protect their specialty dealers, or risk getting their products dropped altogether.

and once you destroy your rep its hard to get back.
I bought a JBL sub off of the "trash table" at Sears, a hundred bucks. And it was one
of the best I HAVE EVER HAD. Tight clean well defined bass, best bargain I have ever had, pretty much.
MEANWHILE a lot of manufacturers have a "high end" line to cover their keister when they go "mass market", with mixed results.
As for the Canadian invasion, that was going to happen, regardless. They built a
speaker institute and planned it. WAS GOING TO HAPPEN no matter what.
AN EXCELLENT way to get rid of excess timber.:1:

[RGA]

Frankly if you like the meters and you want something absurdly built then have a serious look at the Grant Fidelity Rita which when I reviewed it was $4200 and is now $2950. GF is saving money by shipping direct from the plant rather than to them, first and then to you.

It's 145lb monstrosity and runs "cold" despite the big KT 88's. Shock proof and a remote that feels like a barbell a little bit so you will get a workout sitting in front of your stereo. It's also a No feedback amp

They also make some sort of SS version for less money and is a 6 channel power amp for home theater.

Still for the money - it's pretty difficult to beat. http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/RITA-880-Reference-Integrated-Tube-Amplifier

[Woochifer]

and once you destroy your rep its hard to get back.
I bought a JBL sub off of the "trash table" at Sears, a hundred bucks. And it was one
of the best I HAVE EVER HAD. Tight clean well defined bass, best bargain I have ever had, pretty much.

With a lot of those JBL dealers, the company's rep was fine. They still liked the products, but once JBL went to the big box stores, they became the competition. Specialty audio stores want their vendors to protect their back side to some degree, because they know that getting into a price war with big box stores will put them out of business in a hurry. For manufacturers, they need to play the balancing act between expanding their market reach and keeping their existing dealers on board. Look at how Paradigm is entering the mass market -- this is an example of the lessons learned.

Their Paradigm Shift lineup consists of all brand new products that will be sold online and at mass merchandisers. But, they will offer these new products to existing retailers, AND they will continue to keep their existing Paradigm and Reference lines exclusively with their specialty dealers. This is exactly how other specialty audio companies have done things since the early 90s.


MEANWHILE a lot of manufacturers have a "high end" line to cover their keister when they go "mass market", with mixed results.

Fortunately for JBL, they still have a market for their high end stuff overseas. And they still have a presence in the pro market. They painted themselves into a corner in North America. They still make a full range of speakers, but have hardly any specialty dealers left to sell them.


As for the Canadian invasion, that was going to happen, regardless. They built a
speaker institute and planned it. WAS GOING TO HAPPEN no matter what.
AN EXCELLENT way to get rid of excess timber.:1:

The Canadian companies just happened to have perfect timing for their entry into the US market. The NRC's groundbreaking research spawned the Canadian speaker industry. I don't think it was planned for that, but it certainly enabled their emergence, by providing valuable intelligence and testing facilities. Ironic that the former head of that NRC facility now works for Harman (parent company of JBL).

JBL was the 800 lb. gorilla in the speaker market at that time (they were trading the #1 spot with Bose in the consumer market, and had the bulk of the studio and concert monitor market), and they had hundreds of dealers across the country. Once JBL got dropped by most of their dealers, the Canadian companies (along with the others I named) stepped right into that market void.

Their sound characteristics (not quite the west coast "boom and sizzle" that JBL embodied, but still lively enough to satisfy rock fans with greater accuracy) made them the perfect alternative to take over the shelf space that JBL vacated. If not for JBL's blunder, the Canadians' emergence would have taken longer, because you wouldn't have hundreds of dealers looking for alternative full line speaker vendors.

[nedkingsley]

hi folks,

i reviewed the cd player of this series today, it's in the regular database here at audioreview.com. i guess i picked the cheapest part of the setup. cdp is awesum.

[atomicAdam]

hi folks,

i reviewed the cd player of this series today, it's in the regular database here at audioreview.com. i guess i picked the cheapest part of the setup. cdp is awesum.

Thanks for letting us know.

I'll check it out.

[nedkingsley]

three weeks gone by i'm still enjoying this masterpiece, clearly my best piece of equipment now, see my signature

[Mr Peabody]

Ned, welcome to AR. You have the same TT rig as I, just curious if you've ever tried any other cartridge than the Ellys. I haven't yet but thinking of trying a Dynavector. You feel the Onkyo CDP sounds better than your turntable?

[nedkingsley]

@Mr. Peabody: no I never tried another cartridge with P3-24, but just yesterday I was gonna give the Cambridge Audio Phono Pre - the one that earned 5 what.hifi stars a try... Not gonna happen due to immense hum, turned out that the internal mass cable solution from rega at the P3-24(I have the piano edition with no seperate mass cable) is not compatible with some Phono Preamplifiers and I did not want to modify cabling for that purpose(trying another preamp). I used to listen to an Ortofon Vinyl Master Red on a different TT before. There was no hiss at all with no record in my collection and very airy treble, really delightfull, miss that aspect sometimes with the elys/p3-24, because some records show hiss in my system now, but can be a worn needle, got it from display and the belt was quite loose already, replaced that..

About the "ranking" that i implied, the CDP can hold complex recordings pretty good together when tempo can seem a little lost on the TT, but also have to admit that TT resolves the stage better, easier to distinct between different instruments. CDP has louder vocals, mids - it's up to the record/album, what i prefer.

Anybody heard the CDP? Perhaps in showroom...

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to hear the set up but no one has it around here that I'm aware of.