need a turntable [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

cgibsong002

12-27-2010, 03:50 PM

Hey guys, I need some help in getting a new turntable. I'm just looking to get my first table, so I don't want anything expensive, especially since I don't have much money. I've started to get a few records, but my dad's old table appears to have a bad cartridge. I was hoping I could just get lucky and find some vintage one on Ebay or CL for around $50 or so. Any recommendations on brands to look out for or certain things to look for? Additionally, feel free to pm me if anyone has anything extra within my budget :2:

poppachubby

12-27-2010, 04:16 PM

Why not just replace the cart on your Dad's table? There are Audio Technica carts which come in at $35 and sound pretty good.

hifitommy

12-27-2010, 04:34 PM

it would be good to know what the dads tt is. poppa could be right.

cgibsong002

12-27-2010, 04:59 PM

It's a onkyo cp-1022a. are those cartridges really decent for that price? I just assumed that any decent cartridge (based on what i've read here) would cost at least $100. I figured I'd have a better chance of getting a steal for something used as a full package. But maybe the difference is you guys have much higher standards, and I'm only looking to make something workable with decent sound, not anything extraordinary.

So maybe I can actually get a new, decent cartridge? Is this by chance the one you're referring to? http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-3482H-U-Cartridge?sc=2&category=363
and do you have any recomendations for places to purchase from? i've never bought this type of stuff before

thanks!!

edit: also, a friend is willing to sell me a shure M103 NOS for $70. says its way better than anything i could find for my budget.

poppachubby

12-27-2010, 06:17 PM

I was referring to the AT 90CD (http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-90CD?sc=2&category=16684). It actually has an adaptor so you can mount it as a standard cart also. I had this cart gifted to me from my local shop. I laughed at first, but after mounting it I stopped laughing. I bet this would compete with certain carts right up to the $50 mark. It was well balanced, clear and detailed and tracked excellently. Admittedly, I was using it primarily as a cart to rip LPs with, and only a bit of listening.

I have since sold it with a deck, but those rips came out glorious sounding. Good enough to satisfy myself and a few other audiophiles who received the files. Anyhow, it certainly changed my outlook on true entry level carts.

A couple of things.

First...what's your budget, $50? If so then I would suggest spending it all on a new cart. Regarding your friends cart, I have no knowledge. I would firstly recommend ensuring that it is a TRUE nos cart, that is, NEVER used before. After that you should check if there is stylii currently available for replacement. What if after 2 weeks of ownership, you accidentaly break the stylus? You need to have something in the wings.

Secondly, if you are considering to spend $70, how much harder can it be to put together a few more bucks for something really nice in the $100 range? If you want a great Shure, new for $70 range I would highly rec the Shure M97xe (http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-High-Performance-Magnetic-Cartridge/dp/B00006I5SB). Amazon.com has been selling them for $55 with free shipping. This is a cart that used to sell regularily for $100!! From there if you save up, for $120 you can get a special stylus called a JICO for it. That will make you an analog superstar for very little money.

Your idea about a table w/ deck for $50 is a bit flawed. If you do receive a cart it will most likely be used, and by used I am talking badly. Would you want to put a cart which you really don't know about on your nice shiny LPs? What if the tip is damaged? You will ruin those minty grooves.

Just some food for thought.

poppachubby

12-27-2010, 06:23 PM

Oh yes, sorry. Needle Doctor, LPGear and Amazon are all fine sellers.

I double checked at Amazon for you. The Shure M97xe is indeed in stock and only $54.95 with free shipping. You should be doing a happy dance because for your budget you will not do any better, unless you buy used.

I own this cart, and so do several other members. It's infamous in the annals of entry audiophile carts.

The quality of this exceeds your expectations and surely every reasonable assumption regarding your budget. This is it...

cgibsong002

12-27-2010, 06:28 PM

If you think that cart is decent for $35 then that's what my budget is. my budget is more of a mental one than physical. i could buy a $500 table. But I'm not going to. I have other priorities. for example I just started a cd collection and have gotten up to almost 150. I don't even have a real nice cd player yet, just a vintage kenwood 5 disc that i bought on CL. I only have about 20 records, so I'm not going to blow my money on something that isn't worth it to me.

at this stage, records are more of a novelty to me. i don't have the money to start up a serious record collection and everything. but when i find a $2 vinyl at a flea market, theres no better feeling than buying it and throwing it on the table. but i don't need world class sound to get that feeling. i really just want something that will sound good enough (cd quality is my standard.. so it shouldn't be too hard), and something that won't wreck my records.

02audionoob

12-27-2010, 08:13 PM

Order a Red Ed for $13.95 at this page and you'll not likely be disappointed...

http://www.edsaunders.com/reded.htm

Or even better...go lavish and get the elliptical for $27.95. These are actually supposed to be decent cartridges that are ordinarily re-badged and sold for higher prices under names like Goldring and Music Hall.

poppachubby

12-28-2010, 01:53 AM

Dang noob that is a great deal. I may pick one up for 78's. I have a nice Coleman hawkins book of 78s rright now.

cgibsong002

12-28-2010, 05:00 AM

Hell, for that price it's very worth it for me to try just to see how much I'll actually use my table. Are the stylus's sold separately, or are those just extras listed below each model? And will it work with my table I'm assuming?

02audionoob

12-28-2010, 05:07 AM

When you buy a cartridge you do get a stylus included. The stylus for most moving-magnet cartridges is also available separately but often costs almost as much as a cartridge with the stylus included. That design where it has two screw holes on top is standardized, so if your current cartridge has the two screws through the top this one fits the same.

cgibsong002

12-28-2010, 05:30 AM

Purchased. For $16 shipped, I had to. Although I may not have much to compare to, I'll let you guys know how it goes once I get it. Actually, I'll probably be back asking how to install it :D

Brett A

12-28-2010, 06:25 PM

frenchmon

12-29-2010, 05:36 PM

Another enthusiastic vote for a Red Ed elliptical!

I bought one just out of curiosity and mounted it on my secondary 'table. I tell you, I'm giddy over the thing. Having run an AT440 MLa for over a year and spent some time with an Ortofon 2M Red, I can say the Red Ed elliptical performs as well as the AT and much better than the Orto.

And yes, you can get a '78 styus for it PC.

Are you serious about the 2MRed?

I have the Elan cart and replaced it with the 2M and the 2M is a much better cart and more transparent. while the Elan is more laid back and warmer.

Brett A

12-30-2010, 08:52 AM

Are you serious about the 2MRed?

I have the Elan cart and replaced it with the 2M and the 2M is a much better cart and more transparent. while the Elan is more laid back and warmer.

The Elan is a conical. I've never heard a Red Ed conical, so i can't comment on it. I bought an elliptical which people say is the same as the Elecktra. (Although they do have the same body)

And yes. I found the Orto to have more distortion and a thicker veil than either the AT440MLa or Red Ed Elliptical.. (Although maybe the 2M would have opened up with some break-in time).

I couldn't get the 2M Red to track without inner groove distortion no matter how much I fussed with it. It was a new cartridge. I was mounting it on a Kenwood direct drive for a friend (KD-3070 I think). And I was running it through a Cambridge 640p.which I had owned and sold to this friend, so I was familiar.

I tried the stock alignment/overhang per Kenwood, then different versions of the Baerwald (I like Vacuum State's White Papers), and even some free-form positioning. It had reliable, undeniable IGD. Unfortunately (perhaps), i have a very low tolerance for any kind of tracking distortion from a cart, so from this experience (I had it about a week) I could never use or recommend the 2M Red--there are too many other better options out there.

Of course, cartridge performance is so dependent on what table and arm you're mounting it on. So I have to remain open to the idea that others have had better experiences with this cart.

Do you find that you get any inner groove distortion with the Ortro mounted on you Music Hall?

frenchmon

12-30-2010, 03:38 PM

The Elan is a conical. I've never heard a Red Ed conical, so i can't comment on it. I bought an elliptical which people say is the same as the Elecktra. (Although they do have the same body)

And yes. I found the Orto to have more distortion and a thicker veil than either the AT440MLa or Red Ed Elliptical.. (Although maybe the 2M would have opened up with some break-in time).

I couldn't get the 2M Red to track without inner groove distortion no matter how much I fussed with it. It was a new cartridge. I was mounting it on a Kenwood direct drive for a friend (KD-3070 I think). And I was running it through a Cambridge 640p.which I had owned and sold to this friend, so I was familiar.

I tried the stock alignment/overhang per Kenwood, then different versions of the Baerwald (I like Vacuum State's White Papers), and even some free-form positioning. It had reliable, undeniable IGD. Unfortunately (perhaps), i have a very low tolerance for any kind of tracking distortion from a cart, so from this experience (I had it about a week) I could never use or recommend the 2M Red--there are too many other better options out there.

Of course, cartridge performance is so dependent on what table and arm you're mounting it on. So I have to remain open to the idea that others have had better experiences with this cart.

Do you find that you get any inner groove distortion with the Ortro mounted on you Music Hall?

Yes I had IGD with the Red as well as sibilance . But after resetting and break in the cart settled down and tracts nicely and is supper transparent. I've never known, nor heard any one describe Ort carts to be thick. I've got three Ort carts and neither can be described as thick. Sorry about your experience but sometimes a little more time may be needed with some carts to get them to be just right. I love your Well Temperd Table...shes a looker.

cgibsong002

01-03-2011, 04:52 PM

Got the Red Ed in. Are there any good guides to replacing this, and can I do it without buying a specific aligning tool? I 'm fairly certain I know how to set the tracking weight and stuff, but I'm not really sure about alignment.

JoeE SP9

01-03-2011, 05:18 PM

Go to www.vinylengine.com (http://www.vinylengine.com) sign up and download one of their free stylus protractors. You need one to position the cartridge and stylus correctly.

cgibsong002

01-03-2011, 08:20 PM

Got everything hooked up now and am listening for the first time. I'm overall getting a bit of consistent crackling. Not sure if it's the record or not. If it's not the record, is that most likely an alignment issue or weight issue?

02audionoob

01-03-2011, 09:55 PM

Crackling could be static or your records. Weight and alignment would cause other effects...not crackling as far as I know.

cgibsong002

01-03-2011, 11:11 PM

poppachubby

01-04-2011, 04:12 AM

Yeah, I did some searching and read that an anti-static cleaner is necessary. I noticed that while all my records are scratch-free they do have dust. I also read that there are some solutions that can be made rather than bought.. is this true?

Yes use 3 to 1 distilled water to isopropyl alcohol. Buy a cheap spray bottle from the dollar store, and don't forget a micro fiber cloth.

hifitommy

01-04-2011, 06:01 AM

watch it. alcohol is not very good for vinyl. go to the audio asylum vinyl asylum and search alcohol and cleaning records.

Poultrygeist

01-04-2011, 10:59 AM

I'm out of touch with current carts. I have a Shure M97xe and SL-1300. Would the Red Ed be an upgrade over the Shure?

cgibsong002

01-04-2011, 01:35 PM

watch it. alcohol is not very good for vinyl. go to the audio asylum vinyl asylum and search alcohol and cleaning records.

In searching, I've seen a bunch of debate over whether or not alcohol is ok, and everyone seems pretty firm on their stance one way or the other. I think I'm going to just assume either way is fine since both ways work for people.

Now, how fragile are records? I have an old "discwasher" brand cleaning brush that i've been using to very lightly go around the record in a clockwise motion. but then when searching about the solution, i saw many people who recommended scrubbing the records with the solution and a microfiber. is it okay to actually apply some pressure to these and do some scrubbing?

cgibsong002

01-04-2011, 06:12 PM

:) now this is what i'm talking about. made up some solution of roughly 3/4s of a bottle of distilled water, the rest with 91% alcohol, and a drop of dish detergent. used that with my dad's old discwasher microfiber cleaning brush. still the slightest bit of crackle, but only noticeable on stops in the music for the most part. this is more of the type of crackle that i'd associate with vinyl music, rather than a type of crackle that gets annoying.

listening to my first record, led zep IV

edit: actually a slight problem with my right channel occasionally cutting out. not sure where the problem arises as i used to have a problem with the right channel on my receiver, but am now listening to the receiver through headphones. so i don't know if that original problem (that was never technically fixed) was a speaker output problem or a channel problem. also could just as easily be a wire problem, cartridge problem, or headshell problem. i did just notice that i never tightened the screw that was on top of the headshell, so i'll see if that fixed everything.

02audionoob

01-04-2011, 08:24 PM

It might just be one of the controls in your receiver. For instance, I went a few years without using the phono input on my Kenwood preamp. When I started using it again, one channel started cutting out. I cleaned the controls with contact cleaner and it all worked fine again.

Brett A

01-06-2011, 12:30 PM

:) now this is what i'm talking about. made up some solution of roughly 3/4s of a bottle of distilled water, the rest with 91% alcohol, and a drop of dish detergent.(...)

edit: actually a slight problem with my right channel occasionally cutting out. not sure where the problem arises (...).
Good you're up-and-cleaning. It's often a necessary step in getting clear music from an LP. If you were interested in knowing the various popular ways of cleaning LPs, there's days and days worth of reading online. I have a DIY set up that involves the solution you're talking about applied with a fresh, natural bristle paintbrush, then vacuumed off. The a repeat with clean distilled water and a different fresh paintbrush, then i vacuum that off with a different clean vacuum schnozzle. i have a platform to do this with that i made out of an old turntable.

Anyway.. that's maybe more involved than we/I/you need to get right now.

As for the channel cutting out, it seems like you're on to the possible causes. I hope it's something simple (it usually is IME)

cgibsong002

01-06-2011, 04:01 PM

02audionoob

01-06-2011, 08:14 PM

It's the used records that benefit from vacuuming. I wet-clean and vacuum every used record I buy. It makes a huge difference.

JoeE SP9

01-06-2011, 09:41 PM

it seems like its just my receiver. its an old 70's or 80's and i've had that problem with it before. i'll be able to know for sure when i bring the table up to my other house where my other receiver is.

and about the cleaning.. while i was searching for solutions i found plenty of posts of DIY cleaners with vacuums and all these processes and just couldn't help myself from laughing at vacuuming a vinyl :) at this point, a small bottle of cleaner solution and a record specific brush is plenty :D i don't have many records and they were all bought used in the first place.

A good RCM is almost a necessity if you buy used vinyl in any quantity. Even new vinyl gets a turn on my Record Doctor RCM.

The Spin Clean is technically not an RCM. However, it does an excellent job and costs around $80. The Gem Dandy ($149) is another device that does an excellent job. KAB sells an RCM (~$150) without a built in vacuum motor. You connect the hose from your vacuum cleaner to it for the vacuum.

Brett A

01-07-2011, 04:32 AM

It's true that LPs can be played and enjoyed without an elaborate cleaning process. But you might get to the point that many of us did where you want your records to play clean, quiet, and unvieled (for lack of a better word)

There's no substitute for getting a vacuum involved in the process; a vacuum will actually remove the contaminants from the grooves. A wet-wipe will leave quite a lot behind to dry back on causing pops, clicks, distortion and a subtle viel over the music you might not know was there until it's gone. Also, playing only clean LPs will prolong the life of your stylus.

All that said, you may find that you enjoy LPs just fine without all this fuss.

Rock on!!

Enochrome

01-07-2011, 11:50 AM

cgibsong002

01-07-2011, 03:17 PM

Oh, I'm sure I'll eventually get one of those. But for now there's no point in having a device that costs me more than my records and TT combined. For that price I could just buy an extra stylus and backup copies of all my records. These are all just $1-$2 records that I picked up used. But again, I'm just getting into all this. I plan to gradually expand and upgrade, and I'll probably consider it in the future

02audionoob

01-07-2011, 05:20 PM

Enochrome

01-07-2011, 06:03 PM

Aaahhhh yes Obi Won, you are wise beyond your years.

Brett A

01-07-2011, 06:15 PM

Guys,

Can you elaborate a little on the wet vac approach. My question is:

How do you the nozzle of the wet vac getting the particles out without scratching
the record? Is it a matter of just being careful?
I made two schnozzles, one for wash, one for rinse, out of crevice tools by plugging the end, cutting a slot and lining with strips of paint pad.

I'll post more later. Right now, I'm sitting in an Indian resturant typing on my phone

Brett A

01-08-2011, 08:16 AM

OK. Her's a picture of the schnozzle I made.(it's sitting on my record cleaning set-up, BTW)

I cut the suction slot the same width as the playing surface of an LP. To cut this slot, I heated a narrow putty knife with a plumber's torch (like a hot knife through butter, only more toxic with a much greater threat of burning the house down (I did it outside))

The furry strips on either side of the slot were cut from a paint pad refill (About $3 at the hardware store) and mounted with two-sided Scotch tape which works well to hold them firmly, but not so much that I can't change them out easily after some use.

I plugged the end with a small block of wood and electrical tape.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16387095/Shnozzle.jpg

Anyway, there it is. have fun! (or don't)

:)