Combos you'd love to audition

[Ajani]

What crazy combos of gear would you love to audition if you had the chance?

Right now I'd most love to try this setup:

http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/azuomen_blue.jpg

+

http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/wadiapdacm_31.jpg

ZU Omen + Wadia 151PowerDAC mini... Looks like a potentially sweet combo for just $2,200... It makes me wish I was in the US, so I could just order it from Musicdirect...

Anyway, I showed you mine... now show me yours :devil:

[Feanor]

What crazy combos of gear would you love to audition if you had the chance?
....

Anyway, I showed you mine... now show me yours :devil:
Well since you ask ...

A combo I'd like to hear would be Wilson Audio drive by all-Ayre electronics:

SPEAKER: Wilson Audio Alexandria X2
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product_images/alex_livingroom_large.jpg

AMPLIFIERS: Ayre MX-R
http://www.ayre.com/images/products/mxrmain.jpg

PREAMP: Ayre KX-R
http://www.ayre.com/images/products/kxrmain.jpg

DAC: Ayre QB-9
http://www.ayre.com/images/products/9smain.jpg

[Feanor]

Or another combo: Magico speakers and Pass Labs amps and EMM Labs SACD ...

SPEAKERS: Magico Model 5
http://magico.net/images/Product/M5/M5_01.jpg

AMPLIFIERS: Pass Labs XA200.5
http://www.moremusic.nl/pass_labs/xa200-5.jpg

PREAMP: Pass Labs XP-20 (or here pictured, the XP-25 with phono)
http://www.moremusic.nl/pass_labs/xp25-front.jpg

EMM Labs XDS1 SACD player
http://www.emmlabs.com/full/XDS1/front.jpg

[Feanor]

Or yet another ...

E-Stat might like this combo: Sound Lab speakers with VTL amps

SPEAKERS: Sound Lab Majestic
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/Majestic_-_Left.jpg

AMPS: VTL Siegfried Reference
http://www.vtl.com/images/Products/Siegfried/VTL_tower_v01_final_RGB.jpg http://www.vtl.com/images/Products/Siegfried/VTL_tower_v01_back.jpg

PREAMP: VTL TL 7.5 Series II
http://www.vtl.com/pages/preamplifiers/75/piano_v1.jpg

[Feanor]

And while we're at it ...

Perigee speakers and TacT digital room correction and amplification

SPEAKERS: Perigee Definitive
http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/images/definitive-pairside-bw-mlr.jpg

PREAMP: TacT RCS 2.2 XP
http://www.tactlab.com/Products/RCS22XP/xp.jpg

AMP(S) TacT T2
http://www.tactlab.com/Products/T2/dimensionsT2.jpg

[harley .guy07]

I will say that I would like to hear VTL amps since they make some of the highest powered tube amps on the planet with possibly some speakers that would sound good with tube gear but just take too much power for them to be logical. Also the Pass labs stuff really has me wanting to hear some of it because I have always thought Nelson could design the hell out of SS components. As far as speakers with them I would love to hear the Magico m5's or possibly some wilson alexandria since they are something I will probably never fathom owning myself.

[RGA]

I would like to hear an all Shindo System at some point around the Shindo Latour Field Coil Speakers

[Ajani]

It's interesting that all of the responses so far are about ultra-expensive gear... Is no one else interested in auditioning gear they can actually afford?

[audio amateur]

I believe the word 'crazy' led them to believe that you meant price. But then the combo you suggested wasn't all that crazily priced... to us geeks anyways.

[Feanor]

It's interesting that all of the responses so far are about ultra-expensive gear... Is no one else interested in auditioning gear they can actually afford?
That would certainly narrow my selection ... to just about nothing. :(

But getting a little close to what I might afford, I'd like to hear the following system:

SPEAKERS & SUB: NHT Classic Model 3; NHT B-10d
http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/NHT3_000.JPG http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/NHTB10D_34.jpg

AMP: Cambridge Azur 740A v.2
http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/CA740A.jpg

DAC (I'm no longer interested in CDPs): Cambridge DacMagic
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/media/20090205_150805_SilvDacHoriz.jpg

[Poultrygeist]

I am humbled by the mighty $35,000 GM-70 at hornfest each year and yes it sounds like the voice of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb_TDsXQkPc

[Ajani]

I believe the word 'crazy' led them to believe that you meant price. But then the combo you suggested wasn't all that crazily priced... to us geeks anyways.

Crazy could mean anything... unusual like the system I suggested...or it could mean high price... I just find it interesting that all the earlier responses were about the creme de la creme....

[Ajani]

I am humbled by the mighty $35,000 GM-70 at hornfest each year and yes it sounds like the voice of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb_TDsXQkPc

$35K for something that looks like a typical DIY project?

[Hyfi]

Several years ago I got to hear some Turntable systems based on BAT Pre-Amp and Proac speakers. I don't remember what TT was used but the sound was some of the best I remember.

I would like to see/hear a similar setup again.

[Feanor]

For lovers of Canadian gear on a medium budget ...

Paradigm plus Simaudio ...

SPEAKERS: Paradigm Signature S2
http://www.paradigm.com/components/com_mtree/img/listings/o/572.jpg

SUBWOOFER: Paradigm SUB 12
http://www.paradigm.com/components/com_mtree/img/listings/m/326.jpg

AMPLIFIER: Simaudio Moon i3.3 integrated
http://www.simaudio.com/images/lg_mooni33.jpg

DAC: Simaudio Moon 100D
http://www.simaudio.com/images/lg_moon100D.jpg

[Ajani]

That would certainly narrow my selection ... to just about nothing. :(

But getting a little close to what I might afford, I'd like to hear the following system:

SPEAKERS & SUB: NHT Classic Model 3; NHT B-10d
http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/NHT3_000.JPG http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/NHTB10D_34.jpg



I'd actually like to try that combo with my Emotiva gear... I hear NHT is supposed to be warm, so it could be a good match...

[Feanor]

To appease horn + tube crazies ...

Acapella combined with Atma-Shere

SPEAKERS: Acapella Sphäron "Excalibur"
http://www.acapella.de/img/Sphaeron_Excalibur.jpg

PREAMP: Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk.3.1
http://www.atma-sphere.com/images/MP-1mk31web.jpg

AMPLIFIER: Atma-Shere M-60 Mk.3.1
http://www.atma-sphere.com/images/M-60MkIIInu.jpg

VINYL PLAYBACK -- I'm clueless :D ; somebody else will have to figure this out.

[Feanor]

Slighty weird-but-effective mid-range option ...

Magneplanar + Rythmic + Benchmark + Class-D-Audio

SPEAKERS: Magneplanar MG 12

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/speakers/MG12_01.jpg
SUBWOOFER: Rythmic F15
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/product/F15_180x180.jpg

PREAMP + DAC: Benchmark DAC-1 HDR
http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BEDAC1HDR_R.jpg

AMP: Class-D-Audio SDS-254, (semi-DIY)
http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/s/d/sds-2-_01.gif

[RGA]

Crazy could mean anything... unusual like the system I suggested...or it could mean high price... I just find it interesting that all the earlier responses were about the creme de la creme....

Most affordable stuff is easy to audition as most hi-fi shops carry it. And I think it is more valuable to hear the creme de la creme so that you have a base line of knowing what the best is so that when you do audition that which you can afford you can say - hey at least this is somewhere in the ballpark or it gets the main things correct.

I can hear a Paradigm, B&W, Martin Logan, and Sim Audio, Bryston any weekend I want since several dealers and big box chains carry them - I can't however hear a Shindo or Acapella, Trenner & Freidl and most Single Ended amp makers because very few dealers want to carry stuff that people will have to audition because they were not pre-sold before they even walk into the store.

I would like to hear Zu which is affordable and if they present at CAS in the summer I will check them out.

[Ajani]

Most affordable stuff is easy to audition as most hi-fi shops carry it. And I think it is more valuable to hear the creme de la creme so that you have a base line of knowing what the best is so that when you do audition that which you can afford you can say - hey at least this is somewhere in the ballpark or it gets the main things correct.

While I appreciate how nice it can be to have a "benchmark" of how good high end can sound... One can easily argue that "so what?"... Does it really matter how close my Honda Prelude comes to a Ferrari? I will never be able to own anything in a Ferrari price range, so the analysis is not really relevant to me... Knowing how a Prelude compares to other sports-cars/sports-coupes in my price range will actually let me know what to buy... Knowing that it provides 95% of the performance of a Ferrari for a fraction of the price, only provides comfort to my ego. Also it allows me to be the typical clown who claims that rich people are "stupid" for paying the premium on a Ferrari... IMO, the audiophile world would be a much nicer place without all those clowns....


I can hear a Paradigm, B&W, Martin Logan, and Sim Audio, Bryston any weekend I want since several dealers and big box chains carry them - I can't however hear a Shindo or Acapella, Trenner & Freidl and most Single Ended amp makers because very few dealers want to carry stuff that people will have to audition because they were not pre-sold before they even walk into the store.

I would like to hear Zu which is affordable and if they present at CAS in the summer I will check them out.

Affordable doesn't have to mean the stuff you can audition in any major HiFi store... The Zu/Wadia combo I suggested is not going to be available at every major local dealer... In fact it may not be available anywhere other than online...

[E-Stat]

E-Stat might like this combo: Sound Lab speakers with VTL amps...
You betcha!. I've heard those electronics driving Scaena 1.4s using Nordost Odin cabling with either an EMM Labs SACD player or Clearaudio Statement front end, but having a pair of steel framed 990s with U-1B subs would be really nice! :)

rw

[RGA]

Ajani

While I agree you want to compare things of a certain price range - the car analogy is less useful here because a Ferrari as a sports car has few peers in the $25,000 price range (or no peers more likely). And with cars there is more relevant objective evidence of the superiority of a Ferrari versus a Prelude.

With audio it's not necessarily the case that an affordable $5k speaker is bested by a different maker's $50,000 speaker. I prefer the sound of the Gallo 3.5 for example to a lot of $20,000 speakers that I have heard over the years. So I do agree with you on the "affordable" front in the case of ZU for example which is something you would have to seek out to audition - Gallo and King Sound are arguably also speakers that most would have to seek out as opposed to B&W and Paradigm.

And I don't consider it being a clown to hear a $5k speaker beat a $20k speaker. It is about design not prices in many instances and the design that is tailored to the strengths that you may wish for versus those of another design that may perform admirably with aspects you don't regard as important.

Still in general I want to hear what is possible not necessarily just what I can afford since if I hear a true stunner I have a new frame of reference of what I really love and then try to figure out how close I can get with the budget I have. Without hearing that frame of reference I may not be heading in any real credible direction just bouncing around in upgrade land with every new product that gets a rave by someone.

[Ajani]

Ajani

While I agree you want to compare things of a certain price range - the car analogy is less useful here because a Ferrari as a sports car has few peers in the $25,000 price range (or no peers more likely). And with cars there is more relevant objective evidence of the superiority of a Ferrari versus a Prelude.

With audio it's not necessarily the case that an affordable $5k speaker is bested by a different maker's $50,000 speaker. I prefer the sound of the Gallo 3.5 for example to a lot of $20,000 speakers that I have heard over the years. So I do agree with you on the "affordable" front in the case of ZU for example which is something you would have to seek out to audition - Gallo and King Sound are arguably also speakers that most would have to seek out as opposed to B&W and Paradigm.

And I don't consider it being a clown to hear a $5k speaker beat a $20k speaker. It is about design not prices in many instances and the design that is tailored to the strengths that you may wish for versus those of another design that may perform admirably with aspects you don't regard as important.

Still in general I want to hear what is possible not necessarily just what I can afford since if I hear a true stunner I have a new frame of reference of what I really love and then try to figure out how close I can get with the budget I have. Without hearing that frame of reference I may not be heading in any real credible direction just bouncing around in upgrade land with every new product that gets a rave by someone.

Saying that a $5K speaker sounds better than a $20K speaker is still clownish, as it's just my opinion and tastes... Someone else would hear than combo and think I need to get my hearing checked... So there really is nothing to brag about... It's just stroking my ego to say that my setup beats ones costing 4X as much...

Suppose I audition this setup:

Analog Source: Audio Note TT2 turntable with AN/Vx phono cable, Arm 3 tonearm and IQ cartridge. Custom Skylan 3-layer turntable base.

Amplification: Audio Note OTO Phono SE integrated amplifier

Speakers: Audio Note J/Spe stand-mount

Cables and Interconnects: Ultra-Link speaker cables and Tara Labs Prism 11s interconnects.

And honestly find that my all Emotiva rig sounds better to me... Would it really make sense for me to claim that my system beats the Audio Note rig and that the persons and reviewers who own such a rig are fools for wasting their money. Especially when they could have got my all Emotiva rig for so much less?

Also, you don't need to upgrade with no direction... You upgrade based on whether something sounds good to you...

[RGA]

Suppose I audition this setup:

Analog Source: Audio Note TT2 turntable with AN/Vx phono cable, Arm 3 tonearm and IQ cartridge. Custom Skylan 3-layer turntable base.

Amplification: Audio Note OTO Phono SE integrated amplifier

Speakers: Audio Note J/Spe stand-mount

Cables and Interconnects: Ultra-Link speaker cables and Tara Labs Prism 11s interconnects.

And honestly find that my all Emotiva rig sounds better to me... Would it really make sense for me to claim that my system beats the Audio Note rig and that the persons and reviewers who own such a rig are fools for wasting their money. Especially when they could have got my all Emotiva rig for so much less?

This would still in all likelihood be because you preferred the overriding design.

Vandersteen makes a $45,000 loudspeaker. I can agree that this is the best sounding speaker Vandersteen makes and "IF" you like Vandersteen's house sound then the speaker is well worth the money because it is the "ultimate" in that house sound that you can get. I prefer the sound of the AN E/Spe HE at $7,500 however. I would not say that the Vandersteen is not worth it to those who are infatuated with that kind of sound but I could also make the case that if you like what the AN E does better then regardless of the price difference it would be a better loudspeaker. I liked the Vandy room as well.

I tend, however, to believe that many people fall into certain camps. I looked at the best rooms I heard at CES and then made a best of list. I noted that my fellow reviewers owned speakers from those same companies. That illustrates to me that people tend to hear "most" things similarly. I chose Acapella, Teresonic, Audio Note, King Sound as some of the better rooms and fellow reviewers own speakers from these guys. This also applies to many of the people I talked to at the show and from competing publications. I directed several people to certain rooms that I liked to see what they thought as well. There is a personal taste aspect and room limitation and budget aspect to include but in general I believe that most people will hear it very similarly. As for hypothetical comparisons I try to avoid them because too often I am in debates on forums where people slag my perspective when they have not heard the gear I am comparing it to. If I like the sound of the AN E/Spe HE better than the 20.1 for example at double the price this is not because of price but because I have heard both loudspeakers on several occasions in several locations with appropriate gear. I merely ask that there be an actual comparison before people start slagging.

As for your example - it may very well be the case. Bring home an all Audio Note rig and find out. They will ship for home demo.

[Ajani]

This would still in all likelihood be because you preferred the overriding design.

Vandersteen makes a $45,000 loudspeaker. I can agree that this is the best sounding speaker Vandersteen makes and "IF" you like Vandersteen's house sound then the speaker is well worth the money because it is the "ultimate" in that house sound that you can get. I prefer the sound of the AN E/Spe HE at $7,500 however. I would not say that the Vandersteen is not worth it to those who are infatuated with that kind of sound but I could also make the case that if you like what the AN E does better then regardless of the price difference it would be a better loudspeaker. I liked the Vandy room as well.

Here we agree... I think it's more about preference than whether AN is better than Vandy... Naim fans swear by Naim, yet some other persons will say Naim is overpriced junk... The Maggie fans are probably even more fanatical than the AN fans, yet there are audiophiles who detest Maggies... So I see nothing wrong with stating that I prefer X product to Y, for whatever sonic reasons... But I think that the mistake too often made in our hobby is dissing other persons who bought something else... The guy with the the 5 way towers and 1000 watt mono-blocks might be enjoying his stereo just as much as the guy with the 2 way monitors and 3 watt set...


I tend, however, to believe that many people fall into certain camps. I looked at the best rooms I heard at CES and then made a best of list. I noted that my fellow reviewers owned speakers from those same companies. That illustrates to me that people tend to hear "most" things similarly. I chose Acapella, Teresonic, Audio Note, King Sound as some of the better rooms and fellow reviewers own speakers from these guys. This also applies to many of the people I talked to at the show and from competing publications. I directed several people to certain rooms that I liked to see what they thought as well. There is a personal taste aspect and room limitation and budget aspect to include but in general I believe that most people will hear it very similarly.

I have to disagree with that conclusion... As a simple example, the Revel Ultima Salon 2 driven by Mark Levinson Monoblocks have been rated as some of the best sound at various shows by John Atkinson and a few others at Stereophile... I'm sure you've never put them in your top 10 list at a show... So I don't think that most people will hear it very similarly... If they did, then we'd all own similar brands or a limited range of them... the massive variations in brands we purchase is a clear reflection that we all have varying tastes...


As for hypothetical comparisons I try to avoid them because too often I am in debates on forums where people slag my perspective when they have not heard the gear I am comparing it to. If I like the sound of the AN E/Spe HE better than the 20.1 for example at double the price this is not because of price but because I have heard both loudspeakers on several occasions in several locations with appropriate gear. I merely ask that there be an actual comparison before people start slagging.

As for your example - it may very well be the case. Bring home an all Audio Note rig and find out. They will ship for home demo.

I would actually love to do an in-home audition of Audio Note gear... But shipping to Jamaica is going to be very expensive... So I'd have to be sure I want to buy... One day when I get the chance, AN is on the top of my must audition list...

[RGA]

Here we agree... I think it's more about preference than whether AN is better than Vandy... Naim fans swear by Naim, yet some other persons will say Naim is overpriced junk... The Maggie fans are probably even more fanatical than the AN fans, yet there are audiophiles who detest Maggies... So I see nothing wrong with stating that I prefer X product to Y, for whatever sonic reasons... But I think that the mistake too often made in our hobby is dissing other persons who bought something else... The guy with the the 5 way towers and 1000 watt mono-blocks might be enjoying his stereo just as much as the guy with the 2 way monitors and 3 watt set...

I think the big issue is whether the person making the comparison has actually heard the product or not. In the vast majority of cases people have not heard the speakers I am talking about. On this forum it is especially true that rather than take the time to make a point to audition stuff they would rather rip the speakers I suggest without having heard it by making assumptions. Most people have never heard a good SET based system - it's far harder to find largely because it's not made by big companies. The more is better psychology is at play and has been for a long time and is very tough to shake. I don't blame anyone because I was every bit part of that for a long long time. It took the audition to be convinced. I look at the biggest dealers in Vancouver and it's tough to find a place with a known SE/HE system to go listen to. I would agree that people like certain products in a given field - the planar or electrostat or general dipole sound would be a preference versus the Horn/SET approach. But even here the former is far more common with far fewer players than the latter.

I would say that auditioning the better dipole speakers is a lot easier than getting access to the better SET/HE speakers and that at least in my area for the last 20 years the HE experience would be based on listening to mid level Klipsch (which is hardly representative of horns).



I have to disagree with that conclusion... As a simple example, the Revel Ultima Salon 2 driven by Mark Levinson Monoblocks have been rated as some of the best sound at various shows by John Atkinson and a few others at Stereophile... I'm sure you've never put them in your top 10 list at a show... So I don't think that most people will hear it very similarly... If they did, then we'd all own similar brands or a limited range of them... the massive variations in brands we purchase is a clear reflection that we all have varying tastes...

Of course not everyone will agree all of the time. But remember there are also very vocal supporters of what I have liked. The AN E is owned by two of their writers and a third claimed it was the best sound he has ever heard and a fourth also liked them a great deal. None of them however is the editor who makes the sole decision at the end of the day.

The problem when looking at reviews is that virtually everything is recommended rather strongly but trying to separate the best from the rest is difficult. For instance I would value a speaker higher if reviewers buy it than something they give a class A rating or an editor's choice but no one does. This tells me that they want to listen to it day in and day out - not "its great for the money" or "It's great for someone else." Unless of course they can't afford the speaker or there are placement room size concerns etc. I try to look at many different magazines and their reviewers and see if something seems to be picked up a lot over a diverse review industry. And even then it still comes down to auditioning stuff. Personally I don't agree much with John Atkinson's tastes. But I have to say we are both pretty much bang on with Acapella's High Violoncello II. Lastly, there is politics at play. Certain editors don't get along with certain manufacturers - especially the vocal variety.

I would have to hear the Revel Ultima Salon II again. I am not saying that everyone will always agree. Take Mike at audiofederation. This guy is rather brilliant in the ears department and carries amazing gear and I probably agree on 90% of stuff but he didn't like the Magico, Sony or Gallo 3.5 loudspeakers. I liked them all quite a fair bit. They sound nothing like Audio Note, Marten, Acoustic Zen or Soundlabs that he carries but I am more of a speaker whore than he is and perhaps more willing to find what they do well and forgive some of their weaknesses. I made the case to him for example that the Gallo was using pretty inexpensive gear and the speaker itself is not too expensive and to cut it some slack. Sure it doesn't have the finesse or resolution of the AN E but it has heart pounding slam and a start stop on the bass line that for a party guy is hard to ignore.

At the end of the day you can only make a decision based on what you've heard. I have not heard ZU so the only thing I can do is say it looks interesting and has some design features that I might like. But until an audition I won't speak well or ill of them nor will I lambaste people who have heard them and rave about them.

[Feanor]

Can't resist one more combo :devil: ...

Quad plus ARC

SPEAKERS: Quad ESL-2905
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/images/models/2/main.jpg

DAC: Audio Research DAC8
http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/dac8.jpg

PREAMP: Accoustics Research Reference 5
http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/ref5.jpg

AMPLIFIERS: Audio Research Reference 210
http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/ref210.jpg

[dean_martin]

In the not-impossible-to-obtain-one-day category I'd like to audition a pair of JM Reynaud speakers, particularly the latest iteration of what used to be the Twin/Twin Sig./Duets - the Bliss or Bliss Silver. Everything I've read about these speakers going back to the days of the Twin and Twin Signature makes them sound like something I would really enjoy.

I'm not as certain on amplification, but I would probably go with something like an Audible Illusions, Conrad-Johnson, VTL or Blue Circle preamp and a ballsy power amp - I listened to a Plinius integrated one time that seemed to have real slam so maybe a two channel power amp from Plinius. (A good tube preamp/solid state amp combo is what I'd look for.)

I've always wanted to hear the venerable Ear 834 phono amp so I'd have to throw that in along with a VPI Classic turntable with a Dynavector cart.

I don't keep up with digital that much but if Ayre still makes a cd/two channel sacd player I'd go for it.

[Feanor]

...

I don't keep up with digital that much but if Ayre still makes a cd/two channel sacd player I'd go for it.
They do: here (http://www.ayre.com/dx5_details.htm) you go -- Ayre DX-5
...
http://www.ayre.com/images/products/dx5main.jpg

[Ajani]

I'd also love to hear:

http://images.naimaudio.com/product/large/n-sat_double.jpg
Naim n-Sat
+

http://images.naimaudio.com/product/large/unitiqute_front_10pc.jpg
Naim UnitiQute

[dean_martin]

They do: here (http://www.ayre.com/dx5_details.htm) you go -- Ayre DX-5
...
http://www.ayre.com/images/products/dx5main.jpg

Thanks, Feanor. I checked their other products and it looks like they also have a music only/no video C model too. Now I have to decide whether I want to add video to this system (which in my experience would probably require a subwoofer too). It never ends.

[Ajani]

Also an all Audio Note setup:

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/images/an-k_01.jpg
AN-K Speakers

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/amps_integrated/images/izero_01.jpg
IZero Integrated Amp

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/digital/images/dac_0.1_01.jpg
DAC 0.1X

[Feanor]

Also an all Audio Note setup:

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/images/an-k_01.jpg
AN-K Speakers

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/amps_integrated/images/izero_01.jpg
IZero Integrated Amp

http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/digital/images/dac_0.1_01.jpg
DAC 0.1X
Yeah, I'd really like to hear an Audio Note system -- if only so I could tell RGA that I'd done so.

[Ajani]

I can't believe i'm saying this but that Audio Note setup I posted, actually looks pretty good... despite their rep for basic and fugly, that's really not too bad at all...

[Ajani]

Yeah, I'd really like to hear an Audio Note system -- if only so I could tell RGA that I'd done so.

And in the process you might end up becoming an Audio Note Disciple...

[RGA]

I would suggest going to the J or E over the K. I love the K but at the same time it is still somewhat limited by its size. It's a sealed infinite baffle design and is somewhat compromised by rubber surrounds.

The matching front end for the Zero amp/CD would be the Zero speakers.

If you're going to do it go all out baby and audition a set-up with the Ongaku. http://www.stereophile.com/content/ongaku-means-ecstasy (it's too bad AF were not able to set the speakers up remotely properly but it still did pretty good I'd say).

I do wish however that the would make the gear look and "feel" better. When you review tank like stuff and see it all over and the relatively boring utilitarian nature of AN it is a little off-putting. It would be nice to have both the sound and the looks and the tow a ship build.

[RGA]

And in the process you might end up becoming an Audio Note Disciple...

Not for everyone but there is a chance. The reason I say is that a lot of panel guys I know who have switched have made the switch for the AN E. Constantine Soo, Jack Roberts, and Art Dudley all owned Electrostat or panels and switched to the AN E.

Having said that Jack Roberts has switched out a few times and now owns Teresonic which is a single driver design. And I can certainly see and "hear" why he might go that route.

The other issue is that you have to have corners - not everyone does, and you have to accept a less holographic sound to a degree.

[Ajani]

The matching front end for the Zero amp/CD would be the Zero speakers.

Yep, but I'm doubting this one would sound as good as the AN-K:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/4618109535_e0ce54224e_b.jpg

Also, I'm concerned about the fact that it is the odd man out in the lineup... all the other models look to be a similar design, while the entry level one is horn loaded, with a tall and narrow cabinet and the tweeter is seated below the woofer... It's a completely different design, so I'm not convinced I'd be experiencing the real Audio Note sound with that one...

[Poultrygeist]

Here's the GM-70 light show start up at Hornfest 09 ( and I was there ).

Ajani,

This rig may look homespun but it's sound is incomparable to anything on the commercial market. Several Arab oil sheiks own one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGFfCxo6nbg

[Tarheel_]

changing it up a bit...this is the best demo i've had the pleasure of hearing...

Theta Dreadnaught II
http://www.soundscapehifi.com/images/hong-071212-18_LRG.jpg

Revel Salon (first version)
http://members.cox.net/undead3/images/salon.jpg

[RGA]

Yep, but I'm doubting this one would sound as good as the AN-K:
Also, I'm concerned about the fact that it is the odd man out in the lineup... all the other models look to be a similar design, while the entry level one is horn loaded, with a tall and narrow cabinet and the tweeter is seated below the woofer... It's a completely different design, so I'm not convinced I'd be experiencing the real Audio Note sound with that one...

Fair point and you'd be right - they don't sound as good. Although the AZ line is often completely missed. They're rather inexpensive for the sound on top. The AN K is more room placement friendly. The AZ floorstanders absolutely must be in a corner - they can sound more coloured if away from the corners. But they still offer a lot ot body and texture and a very cohesive sound without that jarring in the jaw sensation (phase issues) that a lot of speakers have. Good bass depth and speed. The AZ is an interesting design being a transmission line and horn which explains some of the terrific bass and ease of drive.

In the western market it might be an easier sell for them since people seem to like bigger and more when basing decisions. It's been a long while since I've heard them. They stopped making for them a time and have not brought them back. I would not mind getting a Zero system in for review. They look better than the old Level Zero system (which isn't saying much). They only seem to have one review on them http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/stereoaz3.shtml

[YBArcam]

Some things I'd like to hear:

An Audio Note system

Martin Logan electrostats

LFD amplification (will actually probably hear an LFD/Martin Logan system in the near future)

A Naim system (Naim and Kudos speakers, will likely hear this as well)

Audio Research tubes powering ProAc speakers

Sugden amplification

[tube fan]

I would like to hear an all Shindo System at some point around the Shindo Latour Field Coil Speakers

Pitch Perfect Audio has an all Shindo System. I am afraid to go hear it.

[tube fan]

I've heard just about everything. Nothing I have heard beats my system by enough to matter (if at all). System: Fulton J speakers (true full range, 20-40 k) and THE reference for JGH for several years, AR SP 8 pre-amp, AR D 70 amp, Fosgate Signature phono (with NOS tubes), VPI Scout Master, Benz Ruby 3. Of the systems that I consider close to mine were the Audio Note and Teresonic ones at the California Audio Show. However, my system beat the Audio Note at both the low and high end (the Fulton J has an electrostatic mid/tweeter and a HUGE bass unit). The Teresonic system was close, but I have to hear if it can play at high levels. Plus the deepest bass
seemed to be lacking. Deep bass is more important than most realize. Without it, the sound shrinks (this is one reason I don't love small 2 ways).

[RGA]

Some things I'd like to hear:

Sugden amplification

My two favorite "affordable" solid State amps in the 1990's were the YBA Integre DT and Sugden A21a. I preferred the latter due to a better bottom end. Even my A48b had much better depth than the more expensive Musical Fidelity A300 like SS which seem a little washed out. YBA made a bare bones Integre (not DT) in the Audio Refinement "Complete" wich used many of the same parts - it's not as good but it did have more sophistication than usual at the price.

Still the 1992 circa Sugden A21a was really good - some like it more than their newer ones - I have not done a comparison so I can't say.

[RGA]

I've heard just about everything. Nothing I have heard beats my system by enough to matter (if at all). System: Fulton J speakers (true full range, 20-40 k) and THE reference for JGH for several years, AR SP 8 pre-amp, AR D 70 amp, Fosgate Signature phono (with NOS tubes), VPI Scout Master, Benz Ruby 3. Of the systems that I consider close to mine were the Audio Note and Teresonic ones at the California Audio Show. However, my system beat the Audio Note at both the low and high end (the Fulton J has an electrostatic mid/tweeter and a HUGE bass unit). The Teresonic system was close, but I have to hear if it can play at high levels. Plus the deepest bass
seemed to be lacking. Deep bass is more important than most realize. Without it, the sound shrinks (this is one reason I don't love small 2 ways).


My only problem with speakers using very diffierent drivers is that I have yet to hear one that is cohesive - which is why I have trouble with all the hybrid designs I've heard. Even three ways are problematic. Most two ways are problematic. The AN E does have different driver alignments - the AN E with the Alnico tweeter raises the bar to another level over the regular soft dome.

As for bass - there is limits - it is a standmount. I have been after them to try and make an Audio Note version of the Snell Type A - the speaker is massive but will hit 10hz comfortably. But no one makes the driver as it was rather specialized. They have spent many years working on an 845 SET powered subwoofer that is made specifically for the AN E - but Peter has not been satisfied with the integration aspects of it. And a Field Coil AN E may be coming down the line as well.

Constantine Soo has found that Genesis Subwoofers make for a good match. My thing with Subs is that I want to feel them not hear them (because they usually sound like a big one note localizable beacon). If I am listening to a system and there is a "weight" coming from a particular side of the room then it bothers me. I prefer the cuttoff to be 30hz not 80hz. If you can blind fold yourself - listen to music and walk to where the sub is then it's not integrated. Further some subs will cut off the low frequencies going to the main speaker and instead pass them to the sub. With the AN E that configuration is more irritating but it was also not good on my Wharfedale floorstanders as it placed an emphasis on the mid/treble.

The Acapella Plasma tweeter and the Manger driver used in the Aporia full range are some fantastic drivers for treble reproduction - but both require a sizeable room to get far enough back for the integration to work (on the Acapella High Violoncello II - the Aporia is a single driver).

Unfortunately hotel rooms for audio shows would be better served by putting the air conditioner near the ceiling as it is done in Korea and China. This way they can get the AN E hard in thh corner. There is 12-18db to be gained from the corner loaded position and that is significant at 17-28hz (hard in the corner means a couple of centimeters not 1 foot) - it's a difference of hearing the low bass and not hearing it at all - for most music 40hz is fine but for difficult bass recordings like the High Altitude drums an extra 12db is critical). Away from the corner you're looking at 40hz - hard in the corner you should be able to get 25hz flat as Dudley got and you should get it at reasonably high levels.

[Ajani]

My two favorite "affordable" solid State amps in the 1990's were the YBA Integre DT and Sugden A21a. I preferred the latter due to a better bottom end. Even my A48b had much better depth than the more expensive Musical Fidelity A300 like SS which seem a little washed out. YBA made a bare bones Integre (not DT) in the Audio Refinement "Complete" wich used many of the same parts - it's not as good but it did have more sophistication than usual at the price.

Still the 1992 circa Sugden A21a was really good - some like it more than their newer ones - I have not done a comparison so I can't say.

I've auditioned the Audio Refinement Complete withe Monitor Audio GS20s a few years ago it was a very nice combo... Not quite as refined as the GS20 with the Musical Fidelity X-T100 (a mere 50 watts with a tube pre - so not the brutish MF amps you've previously auditioned)...

[RGA]

I've auditioned the Audio Refinement Complete withe Monitor Audio GS20s a few years ago it was a very nice combo... Not quite as refined as the GS20 with the Musical Fidelity X-T100 (a mere 50 watts with a tube pre - so not the brutish MF amps you've previously auditioned)...

My problem with MF is that they change amps so fast it devalues their gear. You could probably sell a 1995 Sugden A21a for close to what you originally paid for it. The Complete I liked for $1500 Cad. But it was more than a bit light in the bass department - nice mid and treble for solid state though.

[Hyfi]

Some things I'd like to hear:

An Audio Note system

Martin Logan electrostats

LFD amplification (will actually probably hear an LFD/Martin Logan system in the near future)

A Naim system (Naim and Kudos speakers, will likely hear this as well)

Audio Research tubes powering ProAc speakers

Sugden amplification

Ahh, nice a second vote for ProAc speakers. I do not know anyone who owns them but sure used to like listen to them at the old Soundex.

[Ajani]

My problem with MF is that they change amps so fast it devalues their gear.

I agree... as much as i liked the sound of the X-T100, I was pissed when they replaced it quickly... Then they replaced its successor quickly... It got so bad that MF even lost a number of loyal fans... I suspect the current lines of gear will be around for at least 5 years, in an attempt to restore their reputation...

[RGA]

Ajani

There is two ways of looking at companies that do these sorts of fast changes. Optimistically, you could argue that they continue their research and have found superior sound elements and so a new amp comes out. Trouble is it's solid state and it doesn't really improve a whole lot or quickly. I would actually make the same case for tube amps. The Ongaku has been around for 20 years and while it's been improved it's not a wholesale change.

Pessimistically, which is me most of the time, the fast changes can be viewed as marketing to push out more boxes as fast as possible. There are SOOO many companies that change models every 3-5 years like clockwork - funny how most of the companies all find revolutionary upgrades to gear in that time span - which just so happens to be when a product is in the plateau stage of sales.

1) market new product - create Hype for XYZ - show a picture of unit behind curtain and advertise XYZ model in every magazine around the world. Unveil new product at shows. Then the ooh and ahh from the fans of previous gear.

2) Show reports - more ooh and ahh. Send reviewers the new product. Reviews come out raving from 6 mnths to a year..

3) Dealers start taking pre-orders for the new unit - Be the first to own it and get a 30% discount - lucky you. Reputable big name brand with reviews - then go the forum hoorah's that XYZ is great.

4) 1-2 years of sales. XYZ has went through the review circuit. All the mags that were going to review it have reviewed it. Unfortunately competitors have their own ABC unit which recently got a rave and a gold star and sales of XYZ are not as big as it was.

5) Let's slap on a new badge and call XYZ the NYPD1 and put a fancy blue lighted tube in it and add $100 and say that it blows away the old models - very special new unit.

6) Go back to number 1 and start over. And the sad thing is in virtually every case none of them were better than the real good amps and speakers that have been around for a decade or more then and they're still not better.

My view is that better stuff that continues to sell year in and year out with practically zero hype is very likely to be a better overall performer than stuff that gets changed every year or 4. And in some cases there are people that still continue to prefer older products from a company than newer ones, back when they were about the actual products and not about the marketing and money aspect of it.

And the owner is not screwed by equipment that has lasting appeal. An amp that was selling in 1997 for example might have been going for $2500 and if it is still sold today might sell for $4000(let's not factor in the actual dickered price and assume both would be similar). If it's pretty much the same amp and you decide to sell your well respected amp and the potential buyer looks at the retail price of the new amp in the store and sees $4,000 and sees you selling your amp for $2500 - hey that's a bargain to the potential consumer.

There was a fellow in Britain who bought AN K's that sold for $1000 when they first came out. 15 years later he sold them for $1000. Why? Because the new versions of them are $3000. The guy buying used is happy because he got them for a deal (not quite as good as the new ones but close enough) and the original owner is super happy because he owned them for 15 years and got what he paid (well not quite due to the dollar). But my Wharfedales were $2200 in 1992 and I might if I'm lucky get $350 for them. It's not really a statement of quality either - Wharfedale could sell them to this day and in some ways they sound a lot better than their new ones and they'd be better than most of the stuff out there in the $1500-$3000 range for a rocker floorstander. The value has nothing to do with the sound - but the fact that it's now an old obsolete model renders the value very low.

The other way around all of that is the companies like Bryston which has a 20 year warranty - that props up resale as well because a 10 year old Bryston still has a 5 year longer warranty than most all new SS amps increasing their value. But when MF basically says - this new model blows away the old one we sold 2 years ago - and if the price stays the same or goes down - then the obsolete model will find it's way intot he abyss of SS amps on the shelf for $350 at Soundhounds when it sold for $2500 2 years previous.

I guess as a buyer I want something that is obviously not about marketing and is sold because it sounds good and which will hold off the competition for many years and never really be outclassed wholly. The A21a is like that - it has some foibles driving certain speaker loads but when it's partnered well it's difficult to beat around this price. Been selling since 1967 for a reason.

[Feanor]

Ajani

There is two ways of looking at companies that do these sorts of fast changes. Optimistically, you could argue that they continue their research and have found superior sound elements and so a new amp comes out. Trouble ....

Pessimistically, which is me most of the time, the fast changes can be viewed as marketing to push out more boxes as fast as possible. ....
Another reason for product changes, besides improved product and marketing, is cost lowering.

New, cheaper but supposedly equivalent, components come along that require that existing circuits be tweated. Or designs will change on account of automated production. Or the two preceding might be combined, e.g. surface-mounted component equivalents that are easier for automated production as well as being smaller and cheaper.

Also, design often change when production is out-sourced. For example, the Canadian, (i.e. Canadian founded), speaker makers, Energy and PSB, had totally new product lines when they move production to China.

All of which reenforces the point that new doesn't necessarily mean better.

[Ajani]

RGA & Feanor,

I certainly agree that new doesn't always mean better... Also a lot of it is really just marketing... Customers get excited about the latest group test winner or recommended component in a HiFi mag, not a product that hasn't been reviewed in 12 years... I certainly can't blame brands for wanting to keep their products fresh in the public eye and their sales up... But it does mean that buyer must beware... And never assume that the latest is the greatest, regardless of what an ad campaign says...

Also, recently I've seen 2 old products (by the standard HiFi life-cycles) win group tests in the last few months: The 10 year old Quad 909 Amplifier & the 8 year old Benchmark DAC1... So it does go to show that a quality product is a quality product...

[RGA]

Yes and going back to the Sugden A21a and looking at the 1992 unit specifically. This amp was barely reviewed at the time but reviewed positively. Stereophile got to it around 2005(not sure but around this time) and John Marks mentioned that for sound it was the best around. But that means that for about 13 years they were giving class A and B out to inferior amplifiers simply because they didn't audition it. This is why I never go by any of these lists because they usually wind up coming down to ONE person's opinion as it does in Stereophile. And in the Hi-Fi Choice blind level matched tests the Sugden always beats similarly priced competition for sound quality. What it says though is that all the supposed advancements in SS technology the old SET technology continuously beats other designs sighted or blind. I continuously argue for "design" over price because you can throw a high sticker price on a mediocre design and it doesn't beat a better design at a lower price.

It's also irritating that some magazines decide not to keep something in their lists after it gets to be 4-5 years old even if it is still in production. The old Stereophile had class A products that were no longer made and I would find that useful as a consumer when looking for used products (if I put stock into their classifications - which I don't but some people do).

And another point to what Feaner said is that sometimes models get changed for very valid reasons such as something is no longer available to be sourced. Most companies rely on other companies for certain parts. Audio Note stopped all production of one box CD players because the Sony Transport they liked was no longer going to be made by Sony. They didn't like any of the other transports on the market so they simply stopped making them. But it is concievable that if they liked a different one that it would require a different case and electronics and would have to change the look or price of the unit so a company faced witht that could come out with a new model. The CD player I reviewed from them most recently for example uses a Philips L1210 transport and the changes the look and style of the players. And it sounds a helluva lot better than the older DAC 1 models so there is an actual improvement in sound although I am not a big fan of the L1210 or the aesthetics ergonomics of the AN player - at all.

So it's not to say changes are not worthwhile. The Sugden A21a has been changed using better heat handling parts and can increase their power output and to add a few features to get a little more with the times.

And all the digital sources it makes sense to come out with new models fairly quickly as those $4000 Sony, Denon, Pioneer receivers from 2002 are sitting on shelves at Soundhounds for $250 (asking). Need to keep up with the latest greatest surround processor and HDMI connections which the $449 new Pioneer has (and more advertised watts) so why buy an old obsolete box. If you're buying a feature box you need the one with the most features. My $350 Marantz receiver sounds no worse in any way to my 1995 Pioneer Elite at over $2,000. And the Marantz does more. And the new receivers for $300-$600 likely do WAY more than my Marantz.

[Ajani]

That is something people often forget, recommendations by magazines are limited to the gear they've auditioned during the period... So being named product of the year in the category of DACs under $500 doesn't really mean anything if the mag has only reviewed 2 or 3 DACs in that category...

That complaint tends to be brought up more often on UK mags' forums, as users always ask "when are you going to review X product that was named best in class by another mag?"

All reviews are limited. Even reviewers who have listened to most products at every major audio show, can only give a credible opinion on the gear they've spent serious time auditioning... Saying that a piece sounded bad in the 20 minutes I heard it at a show, while playing music I had no control over (and didn't like), is not meaningful to most users.

[Ajani]

To get back on topic again, here's another combo I really want to hear:

http://www.wyred4sound.com/uploads/74030/images/0/DAC_BLK_FRONTws.jpg
Wyred 4 Sound DAC 1/2

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred/hero.jpg
Wyred 4 Sound SX-500 Monoblocks

http://nuke.nonsoloaudiofili.com/Portals/0/TAV%20Milano%202009%20Seconda%20Parte/Adeo%20Group%20-%20P1000437.JPG
Revel Performa F52

[YBArcam]

I'd love to hear a Sugden amp in my system one day. Most are obviously class A, single ended output. Just how bad is the heat that they generate? You'd obviously not want to sit anything on top of the amp, but do you need an air conditioned room in the summer, or would you need to take other special precautions?

Also, Sugden has come out with a new Class AB design in the Mystro. Any chance that this amp might capture some of the Sugden magic in their Class A, SET designs? I'm guessing the answer is probably no, and if someone wants to experience Sugden they really should go all the way.

[RGA]

The A21a is the notable classic. Though their other amps are usually quite good. The A48b I had a very valve like sound to it. Deep bass (no frequency limiters) and dug down deep and sounded far more full bodied and rich than most SS amps (but it is also slightly thick and veiled - depending on the speaker though it's a nice tradeoff and they can be had for $350.

Some have really liked the Mystro and the Sugden Headmaster was a good unit as both a preamp and headphone amp.

They do get very hot. The front panel on the older ones were uncomfortably hot. They need ventilation.

The thing is it really depends on your budget and how afraid of tubes you are (if you are). One of the great advantages of SE Tube amps is that they are virtually as plug and play as a Sugden. My amp for example in Line Level mode is about the same price as the Sugden A21a. But no Audio Note amp (or SETs in general) requires any sort of tube biasing. Take tube out stick new tube in and that's it. No volt meters or any of that crap. So every four to ten years you replace the light bulbs (err tubes) which take about 5 minutes (4 minutes to find where you put your screw driver to get the top off).

I would still go with a very good SE tube amp over the Sugden if you have efficient speakers. But if I were to buy a Solid State integrated amp my first choice would be the A21a unless something comes along that would really wow me. Remember some of those big $50,000 SS separates don't necessarily "sound" better - they're built to drive horrendously difficult to drive loudspeakers. This is why the industry bothers me sometimes because you have a brutal to drive speaker that then requires massive current and power in massive expensive SS power amps that don't sound as good as inexpensive SETs. So even if there was something in the speakers - you are usually required to use an inferior sounding more expensive front end. Personally, I'd rather spend more on higher efficient speakers of high caliber and less expensive but superior sounding front end electronics. Granted I am biased I admit to HE/SET based set-ups.

One other budget solid state amp that greatly impressed me was from Heed Audio. Not expsensive - butt ugly but also had a relatively interesting design and retains a lot of the valve qualities. I guess though that it seems like the better SS amps do in fact have a Valve goal or a less feedback goal in mind. To have SS sound more like a great SET is good but I suppose I would just ask "why not build a valve amp or SET?" and if the consumer wants an amp that sounds more like a valve then why not buy a tube/SET amp?

Still, the Obelisk from Heed is worth trying - it fronted brilliant sound with the Trenner and Freidl RA Box and is a $2500ish SS integrated that practically no one knows about. http://www.heedaudio.hu/en/prod_old.html

[frenchmon]

I'd love to hear the Cantons 1.2 Reference.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9899/salond40.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/salond40.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6493/cantonreference12.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/i/cantonreference12.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)