Center

[Dale M]

Hi, Just putting a HT system together, and Now Im at the point of getting a center ,, I am hearing this is the most Important speaker and plays the biggest role ( 50%) of the sound comes from the center,,, Sooooo what do I need to know? Is bigger better? I like some action movies Really loud,, I've looked at some polk audio and a few others, is going more expensive and bigger, better?, im trying to get the most sound for my buck out of my harman Kardon AVR-225 as I can,, I dont want more speaker then the H/K can handle but I dont want to say 3 weeks down the road , I wish I would have gotten something different,
Thanks People
Dale M

[markw]

If it's possible, you would be better off getting the center that was designed to mate with your front left/right speakers. If not, what are your mains?

[Dale M]

Hi.. My front speakers are ummmm, geez I hate to say cause you will laugh hahaha
ok they are Sharp CP-6800,, Ya I know, your laughing already, they are 3 foot towers with 3 speakers in each, a 10" on the bottom then a 4.5 inch in the middle and a 3.5 inch on top, what they say on the back is
8 ohms
130 watt
crossover frequency 3 Khz. 7.0 Khz
sensitivity 89 dB at 1W/1M,,,
No S#@T they do sound good, they have lots of base and sound good cranked up,,
Thanks for your help,,

[AZHT]

Scrap the Sharps. Use them in your bedroom, sell them, or give them away. Buy new mains with a matching center channel. Much better sound quality for DVD viewing. Also look into a subwoofer if you don't already own once since you watch a lot of action movies. Not sure what your budget is but buying some good quality speakers now will save you money long term. Polk, Klipsch and others make some good HT entry level speakers to start with. Many dealers also have 1 year trade up programs so you can save up more money and get better quality down the road. Good luck!

[nusiclover]

i am actually very familiar with your speakers. i used the same ones ten years ago. and yes, they do go loud when cranked up. but, the truth is that if you were to get any good center right now you will feel about your sharps the way you feel about not having a center now. meaning, you will want new speakers. so, if you MUST have a center channel now, then why not get a good one. you dont mention how much $$$ you are willing to spend so i cant recommend anything. however, if you do get a good center chance are you will replace your mains, and who knows- send your mains as rear surrounds??? hey, if you do not plan on becoming a serious audiophile (yet your message says otherwise) then you wont hate your sharps. they satisfy you now (or do they) they will work later. chances are you will get a center and realize you hate the sharps. but, time will tell. i dont suggest you rush into buying mains, buying a center, buying a sub, until you first decide what you really want.
as far as going more expensive being better. only better than your sharps. and if you intend to keep them you dont want better. is going bigger better? i think for you it may well be. but not necessarily getting the more expensive brands. see, it all depends on what you want in the end. and you really need to decide how much $$$ you want to spend. first decide that, then post it, and you will get more precise help here.
cheers

[Dale M]

Hi, ok for the amount off $$$ I would like to spend on a center, I will say somewhere in the area of $350, Cdn,, if you to go to this web site www.futureshop.ca you can see the centers they have,, this is a local store in calgary and their web prices are the same as what I can get them in the store for.I dont really want to mail order and speaker, if you go into the web address and click on home audio then you will get a few menu choices on the left side and can look at everything they have,,
Thanks
Dale M

www.futureshop.ca

[RGA]

You're in Calgary try A&B sound - check into Energy or totem or even Mission.

It is genrally a good idea to have all three speakers across the front be identical...the next option would be to run your receiver in PHANTOM mode where the receiver pretends their is a center channel and cmpensates accordingly. The third best option is to have a matching center speaker - typically from the same company. If the phantom mode is poor this option is what most people do...I have only been impressed twice with center channels that are not the same speaker ast he front left and right...and even then it pales horribly in comparison IMO.

A&B Sound may have a package you might like...but for $350.00 I doubt it. Save your money buy two good speakers. 2 good channels is better than 5 lousy ones for music and movies.

[Woochifer]

The most important consideration for the center speaker is how well it matches with the L/R mains. ALL other considerations are secondary, including how the center speaker sounds by itself. The rationale behind timbre (voice) matching is that you don't want any one speaker to disrupt the continuity of the soundfield with significantly different sounding tonal characteristics.

When deciding on a center speaker, the first question should be how well does it match with the main speakers? In general, the first place to look is the matching center speaker for whatever main speaker you're using. Your odds of getting a reasonable voice match are good because most center speakers use comparable drivers to the bookshelf and floorstanding models of a given speaker family.

Ideally, you would use three identical speakers up front. The only reason that horizontal center speakers came about is because the TV typically sits exactly where the middle speaker would go. If you have the space (either because you're using a front projection system or have the TV mounted high above the floor), go with three identical speakers up front; if not, then you should first try out the matching center speaker. Because of the horizontal alignment of most center speakers, you won't get an exact voice match, so you'll need to listen carefully and make sure that whatever center speaker you go with does not significantly deviate from what the mains produce.

If you cannot adequately voice match your main speakers, I would just stick with two and save up until you can afford to upgrade the front three speakers together. Using a nonmatched center speaker can actually make your whole system sound worse, and that would be a waste of money. With discrete 5.1 soundtracks, it's generally best to have a center speaker, but if it doesn't match the mains, you're better off without one.

[Geoffcin]

Hi, ok for the amount off $$$ I would like to spend on a center, I will say somewhere in the area of $350, Cdn,, if you to go to this web site www.futureshop.ca you can see the centers they have,, this is a local store in calgary and their web prices are the same as what I can get them in the store for.I dont really want to mail order and speaker, if you go into the web address and click on home audio then you will get a few menu choices on the left side and can look at everything they have,,
Thanks
Dale M

www.futureshop.ca


Hi Dale,

My advise is to get the best sounding center channel you can, and not worry about "timber matching". If you've got a store you can listen to them at, go and audition them. I like the looks of the larger Polk with the 6.5" woofers, but I think that's just out of your budget. A good center will make a big difference in your system, and ones you get one your sure to upgrade your mains sooner or later.

[Woochifer]

Hi Dale,

My advise is to get the best sounding center channel you can, and not worry about "timber matching". If you've got a store you can listen to them at, go and audition them. I like the looks of the larger Polk with the 6.5" woofers, but I think that's just out of your budget. A good center will make a big difference in your system, and ones you get one your sure to upgrade your mains sooner or later.

Not worry about timbre matching? That presumes that the sounds emanating from the center speaker differ significantly from what the L/R mains reproduce. The problem is that with directional dialog, side-to-side panning effects, music, and other sound elements, the front three speakers need to work together as a unit. That's just how multichannel soundtracks are mixed. Mismatches detract significantly from the imaging with movie soundtracks and sound like separate point sources rather than a cohesive soundstage. With multichannel music, the need for timbre matching is crucial not only with the front three, but with the surrounds as well (with movie soundtracks IMO it's desirable but not crucial). Another discussion on this topic earlier... (Terrence's comments are dead on correct)

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=2054

[poneal]

Save your money until you can buy 3 tibre matching fronts (believe me it makes a difference). Just use v-max far or near on your receiver to emulate the surround sound. Vmax is fairly decent -not sure how they done it- but it sounds decent. Otherwise just use pure stereo.

[nusiclover]

but geoff does have a point.
we can all agree that with $350cdn you have no options in getting 3 front channels that timbre match. dale did say he wanted a center. i think he should get the best center he can now and upgrade the mains down the road. yes, we can tell him to save up until he has enough for the set, but for a lot of people saving up one large sum is more intimidating than buying what you can now and getting what else you need later. and instead of getting an htib for $350, im sure we can all agree that he can start the right way and get a good speaker (be it center, main, whatever). also, one center is a lot cheaper than the timbre matching main pair would be. and we can all agree on that too :)

[Geoffcin]

Not worry about timbre matching? That presumes that the sounds emanating from the center speaker differ significantly from what the L/R mains reproduce. The problem is that with directional dialog, side-to-side panning effects, music, and other sound elements, the front three speakers need to work together as a unit. That's just how multichannel soundtracks are mixed. Mismatches detract significantly from the imaging with movie soundtracks and sound like separate point sources rather than a cohesive soundstage. With multichannel music, the need for timbre matching is crucial not only with the front three, but with the surrounds as well (with movie soundtracks IMO it's desirable but not crucial). Another discussion on this topic earlier... (Terrence's comments are dead on correct)

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=2054

I speak from experiance, rather than theory.

I had also heard all the stories about how much "timber matching" is essential and have a fully "timber matched" system with my top of the line $3k Cambridge Soundworks system.

After setting up my new theather room I decided to try something different.
Right now I am using the ultimate in "non-timber-matched" speakers, as in Magnepan 3.6r's with conventional box speakers for surrounds & center. Guess what, for HT it sounds GREAT! Even better than the "fully timber matched system". How can this be? According to what I've heard, it shoud be distracting, but in reality it's MORE involving, by an order of magnitude.

I suggest that if you don't have the money to replace you mains, and you need a center for HT, get the BEST one that you have a chance to and don't worry about the timber matching aspect. To me the is the best advise for this guy, who seems to be interested in getting a HT system setup without spending a lot of cash.

If he gets a great center, it's going to be obvious to him that the speakers he's been happy with all these years might not be as good as the center, and want to upgrade. To open up someones ears to the fact that audio can sound better is not a bad thing!

[N. Abstentia]

I agree that timbre matching does not have to be 100% precise. In fact, you could get 3 matching speakers, and the center is still going to sound different becuase more than likely it will be sitting at a different height, and it will be sitting on a TV. Unless you have exact matching stands for all 3 speakers, you're not going to get a perfect timbre match anyway. But it is best to match as closely as possible.

My advice to the poster: find a good center in your price range, and when you get ready to upgrade those Sharps, get the mains made by the same company and speaker line. For instance you could get a Paradigm CC370 now, then some Paradigm Monitor series mains and surrounds later.

[kexodusc]

I've read a few places that area acoustics around a speaker can often change the apparent timbre as much or more than using different speakers. Any good, comprehensive studies on this out there?

[cam]

I agree that timbre matching does not have to be 100% precise. In fact, you could get 3 matching speakers, and the center is still going to sound different becuase more than likely it will be sitting at a different height, and it will be sitting on a TV. Unless you have exact matching stands for all 3 speakers, you're not going to get a perfect timbre match anyway. But it is best to match as closely as possible.

My advice to the poster: find a good center in your price range, and when you get ready to upgrade those Sharps, get the mains made by the same company and speaker line. For instance you could get a Paradigm CC370 now, then some Paradigm Monitor series mains and surrounds later.
If you are interested in the paradigm cc 370, I only paid $340 Cnd. at Audio Video here in Vancouver B.C. It might be the best center you will find with your $350 Cnd budget. Just so no one rips me, I said best center for your $350 budget, not best center period.

[kexodusc]

$350 CDN for a CC-370??? Is that tax inclusive? Still, that's a great price on a very good, bright sounding center channel (which is what you want in a center). Any idea what this place in Vancouver sells the CC-470 and 570's for?

[Dale M]

Just wanted to say Thanks to All for your input into a Center
and now that it all as clear as Mud to me, I think I;ll go buy a ummm,
who knows, I'll go get something and if it sounds good I'll keep it,
if it sounds bad I can take it back,,
Thanks people
Dale M.

[N. Abstentia]

Just buy that Paradigm CC370, that way if you do get it home and it sounds bad you KNOW it's not the fault of the speaker!

[cam]

$350 CDN for a CC-370??? Is that tax inclusive? Still, that's a great price on a very good, bright sounding center channel (which is what you want in a center). Any idea what this place in Vancouver sells the CC-470 and 570's for?
$340 plus 7.5% sales tx and 7% gst, total $389.30. I have not looked at prices for the 470 or 570.

[Woochifer]

I've read a few places that area acoustics around a speaker can often change the apparent timbre as much or more than using different speakers. Any good, comprehensive studies on this out there?

This article from Dr. Floyd Toole is one of the better introductions to room acoustics out there. A lot of the other articles are excellent introductions to properly setting up subwoofers and multichannel systems.

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=121

[Woochifer]

I speak from experiance, rather than theory.

I had also heard all the stories about how much "timber matching" is essential and have a fully "timber matched" system with my top of the line $3k Cambridge Soundworks system.

After setting up my new theather room I decided to try something different.
Right now I am using the ultimate in "non-timber-matched" speakers, as in Magnepan 3.6r's with conventional box speakers for surrounds & center. Guess what, for HT it sounds GREAT! Even better than the "fully timber matched system". How can this be? According to what I've heard, it shoud be distracting, but in reality it's MORE involving, by an order of magnitude.

I suggest that if you don't have the money to replace you mains, and you need a center for HT, get the BEST one that you have a chance to and don't worry about the timber matching aspect. To me the is the best advise for this guy, who seems to be interested in getting a HT system setup without spending a lot of cash.

If he gets a great center, it's going to be obvious to him that the speakers he's been happy with all these years might not be as good as the center, and want to upgrade. To open up someones ears to the fact that audio can sound better is not a bad thing!

Let me pose these questions to you. Would you advocate using different speakers, with significantly different tonal characteristics, in a two-channel system? And would you advocate buying the center speaker first, and then adding inferior L/R speakers later?

By saying that timbre matching does not matter, you are basically stating that it IS possible to still get optimal results with different sounding speakers all the way around, even in a two-channel setup. Definitionally, timbre matching has nothing to do with pairing identical drivers or identical speaker designs, it has everything to do with matching their tonal characteristics. You say that you speak from experience, but is that based on trying out several different center speakers with your Magneplanars or just trying out one and it coincidentally providing a sufficient level of performance for you? Maybe it sounds good to you because the center speaker you have is actually a sufficient timbre match for your Maggies.

By timbre matching, it has everything to do with ensuring that the tonal characteristics of the three front speakers are sufficiently similar so as to not create a situation where the center speaker sticks out like a point source. With main speakers that roll off the highs and emphasize the midrange (as a lot of high end speakers do), you don't want to get a center speaker voiced with a rising high end and a bump up in the midbass. This is not theory, this is reality and this is something that I've tried out at home and in various demo rooms. If the match is not right, then the performance is actually far better with the center speaker turned off.

IMO, it's better to simply defer buying a center speaker until somebody is ready to upgrade the front three together. Getting a center speaker just to have one, and have a majorly mismatched situation is a waste of money. If any upgrading is in order, I would actually prioritize upgrading the L/R mains FIRST and then worry about the center speaker at that point. Even though the phantom center mixdown is not always optimal, having two good speakers up front is a much better option IMO than dropping a good center speaker into a setup with two inferior mains.

[N. Abstentia]

$340 plus 7.5% sales tx and 7% gst, total $389.30. I have not looked at prices for the 470 or 570.

Don't quote me, but I believe the 470 and 570 would be around $600 and $800 USD repectively.

[Geoffcin]

Let me pose these questions to you. Would you advocate using different speakers, with significantly different tonal characteristics, in a two-channel system? And would you advocate buying the center speaker first, and then adding inferior L/R speakers later?

By saying that timbre matching does not matter, you are basically stating that it IS possible to still get optimal results with different sounding speakers all the way around, even in a two-channel setup. Definitionally, timbre matching has nothing to do with pairing identical drivers or identical speaker designs, it has everything to do with matching their tonal characteristics. You say that you speak from experience, but is that based on trying out several different center speakers with your Magneplanars or just trying out one and it coincidentally providing a sufficient level of performance for you? Maybe it sounds good to you because the center speaker you have is actually a sufficient timbre match for your Maggies.

By timbre matching, it has everything to do with ensuring that the tonal characteristics of the three front speakers are sufficiently similar so as to not create a situation where the center speaker sticks out like a point source. With main speakers that roll off the highs and emphasize the midrange (as a lot of high end speakers do), you don't want to get a center speaker voiced with a rising high end and a bump up in the midbass. This is not theory, this is reality and this is something that I've tried out at home and in various demo rooms. If the match is not right, then the performance is actually far better with the center speaker turned off.

IMO, it's better to simply defer buying a center speaker until somebody is ready to upgrade the front three together. Getting a center speaker just to have one, and have a majorly mismatched situation is a waste of money. If any upgrading is in order, I would actually prioritize upgrading the L/R mains FIRST and then worry about the center speaker at that point. Even though the phantom center mixdown is not always optimal, having two good speakers up front is a much better option IMO than dropping a good center speaker into a setup with two inferior mains.


It's obious that you have misread my post. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I did NOT say that "timber matching" is not important, only that this person should not worry about it in this situation. Nor do I avocate using different speakers for 2 channel audio. Where did you get that one?!

The fact of the matter is that good quality center will have a flat respose over most of it's useful range. A speaker like this will not bring attention to itself when mated with other speakers with a similar flat responce. This is my observations from my own experiance.
This is one of the reasons why I reccomend getting the BEST center you can afford, one that DOES have a flat responce.

I also do not agree with you that a lot of high end speakers roll off the highs and emphasize the midrange. It's been my observation that better quality speakers have a flatter responce than lower quality ones.

Now, if he had Paradigms, and was asking about a center, then I would have said something different. But this is a specific case, and I'm pretter sure Sharp doesnt make a matching center for these.

I will say it again. If this guy wants to have HT he needs a center, and he should get the BEST one he can, and not worry about it "timber matching" the mains, as that is going to be a waste of time for him with the speakers he has.

As to my own experimations with Maggies & boxes; it's an ongoing project, and I'll be trying a few more speakers to see if anything is better. I can tell you that is sounds great now though!

I will say, that IMHO, the BEST of all worlds would be EXACT matching speakers. For me this would mean that I would have to have stacked maggies for the center, and a couple of pairs for the rear channels. While I'm sure it would be best, it would be very hard to impliment.

[Dale M]

Hello,
What Im seeing here is alot of opinions.Thats good and thats why I asked for Help, I am very New to the world of HT, and Im sure alot of you have forgotten more about HT then I will ever know. I think alot of it is, Wherever ones passion lays, Whats more of a Priority to You, What you are into,, From my short time on here I can definitely see some of you really really know your stuff inside out. I have learned there are things to do and things to not do,there are also things that someone might do, that someone else would Never do.There is the " do it by the book" crowd, The "do it like I have done crowd", and the "My way is the Best and Only way" crowd. Which is best???, I know that in most things there is the right way to do something to get the best possible results..But alot of times there is also ways to get good results, maybe not good enough in everyones eyes, but maybe good enough for him or her just the same.Who is right here? Is there only one way to get the end result that that the indivdual seeks? Do you have to spend tons of money to get whats right you? I think that depends on your individual tastes and whats right for You.. I think thats why there is a huge selection of every consumer good we can think out there,,I fish alot, and do you Need to have a fly rod that cost a 1000 bucks??? Well I do. but does Everyone need to have that same rod to go out there and have fun and enjoy the sport,, Nope..,
I know some of you have a huge wealth of knowledge on this HT subject and alot of what you said will influence my future HT purchases and thats why I asked my question.
Thanks
Dale M