the quest for a new preamp

[harley .guy07]

I am starting to look at studying preamps in order to add one to my system and still keep the yamaha for video and multi channel setups since I want to have a theater but keep the 2 channel part of it separated. I want a preamp with theater bypass and a tubed unit is really not where I want to go because unless the tubes shut down during theater bypass I would be wasting tube life on watching tv and movies. I have looked at the adcom gfp 750 since it seems to have a following and is not very expensive. I have also thought about Emotiva's up and coming xsp 1 mainly because their usp-1 only does theater bypass on their crossed over outputs for my mains which I don't want since I rarely use my sub for music. The usp-1 will have much more abilities than the usp and also supposed to be a much better unit if they will ever some out with it!!. I am just wondering what thoughts are out there for ideas one this subject. I know the adcom 750 has a following but I am worried about buying a possibly 10 year old preamp without a warranty but heck I have had a adcom amp for around 17 years or so without one problem with it so I guess I should not worry. But on the flip side the emotiva will have a 5 year warranty. I just want the best sound for my money. I am looking at saying around the 1500 dollar and under market and the cheaper the better obviously but I don't want to have worse sound just to save a few bucks because I know how I am I will kick myself for it later. Ideas will help on this.

[Ajani]

Assuming you don't have an analog source (I don't see one in your sig) then have you considered Pre amps without HT Bypass?

For example, you could get a PS-Audio P200 pre and run the balanced outputs from your Dlink 3 to it and run the RCA to your Yamaha receiver.

You could do the same with an Emotiva USP-1 (if you want to spend less)...

Also, I think you could get a passive pre like the Creek OBH-22, send the the RCA signal from the dlink3 to the Creek and then use the Creek's tape out to the Yamaha...

[Feanor]

I did own an GFP-750 that failed. Actually not on my watch, but it was DOA at the person who bought it from me: he had to have the power supply replaced at over $300.

Budget is a big factor of course, Today if I were willing to spend say $1500, I'd be looking at an older tube preamp, say a BAT VK-3i, like THIS (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1294967941&/BAT-VK-3i-) one recently on the 'Gon. Actually a couple of years ago I bought a Sonic Frontiers Line 1, a fully balance tube preamp for $900. The SF equipment is a relative bargain because SF is no longer in business; however expert service is still available from Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/) whose owner was president of SF.

On the other hand these days I'm into DIY in a modest way, and I would give consideration to buying a preamp kit from one of the internet providers of which there are quite a few. Or you can buy an assemblded one from some of those sources, mostly in China not surprisingly. THIS (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Complete-Bal-Tube-Preamplifier-ref-Audio-Research-ls60-/230551005096?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ade927a8) one from DIY Gene on eBay, supposedly "based on" an ARC balanced tube design, would be tempting to me: US$600, assembled & shipped.

And for sure, you could look at the selection at Pacific Valve of Chinese-sourced preamps. For example, THIS (http://www.pacificvalve.us/YSAudioSymphRPlus.html) "YS Audio", $800.

[harley .guy07]

Assuming you don't have an analog source (I don't see one in your sig) then have you considered Pre amps without HT Bypass?

For example, you could get a PS-Audio P200 pre and run the balanced outputs from your Dlink 3 to it and run the RCA to your Yamaha receiver.

You could do the same with an Emotiva USP-1 (if you want to spend less)...

Also, I think you could get a passive pre like the Creek OBH-22, send the the RCA signal from the dlink3 to the Creek and then use the Creek's tape out to the Yamaha...


Good thought but I do want a preamp that I can run when I use my digilink or an analog source from which I have yet hooked up but I do have a tt that I am restoring so it will be a future thing. When I run this preamp I want the adcoms power amp connections to come right off of it and when I am listening to music through this preamp I want to be able to take the yamaha completely out of the mix at all. I thought a preamp with ht bypass would be perfect for this and there are plenty of them out there that do this. Now I have heard the adcom 750 having some reliability issues so that is a concern since they are out of warranty now if I bought one of the gon but I think I want to go a little higher end than the emotiva usp-1 since my system if evolving and I want to go as good as I can afford, I have heard the usp 1 is way better than their price leads you to believe but they are coming out with a new preamp that is supposed to be better than the usp. But I am also looking at different preamps and getting ideas. have looked at the rotel 1580 and the bel canto pre3 since they have a theater bypass and have gotten good press and have looked at tubed pre's but I would want to make sure that the tube section is bypassed when the ht bypass is active since I don't want to waste tube life on ht. If there is a pre that does that I will look at it very closely but for now a ss pre seems to be the best bet for this kind of setuation since I do not have room in my home and my girlfriends approval to set up two systems in my home.

[Ajani]

Good thought but I do want a preamp that I can run when I use my digilink or an analog source from which I have yet hooked up but I do have a tt that I am restoring so it will be a future thing. When I run this preamp I want the adcoms power amp connections to come right off of it and when I am listening to music through this preamp I want to be able to take the yamaha completely out of the mix at all. I thought a preamp with ht bypass would be perfect for this and there are plenty of them out there that do this. Now I have heard the adcom 750 having some reliability issues so that is a concern since they are out of warranty now if I bought one of the gon but I think I want to go a little higher end than the emotiva usp-1 since my system if evolving and I want to go as good as I can afford, I have heard the usp 1 is way better than their price leads you to believe but they are coming out with a new preamp that is supposed to be better than the usp. But I am also looking at different preamps and getting ideas. have looked at the rotel 1580 and the bel canto pre3 since they have a theater bypass and have gotten good press and have looked at tubed pre's but I would want to make sure that the tube section is bypassed when the ht bypass is active since I don't want to waste tube life on ht. If there is a pre that does that I will look at it very closely but for now a ss pre seems to be the best bet for this kind of setuation since I do not have room in my home and my girlfriends approval to set up two systems in my home.

If you're not in a rush then I'd suggest waiting on the XSP-1... It should be at least as good as the Rotel for quite a bit less (considering how many of us Emo owners were previously Rotel fans and owners)...

[harley .guy07]

I might do that but I wish they would announce a pre order for it so I could get the before the end of the year pricing because I am thinking about their dipole,bipole surround speakers as well sense this type of speaker will work better for how I have my room set up and as far as I have seen dynaudio does not make a speaker like that and they are at a very good price right now so if I could bundle the two together and get the sale price that would be awesome.

[Ajani]

Not sure how soon the XSP-1 will be released, but Emotiva has up preview pics of it on their website (under the news section)...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/emotiva_audio/5183055658/lightbox/

[Mr Peabody]

I wonder how this would sound and it has a HT feature.
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=286&Title=Azur+840E+pre+amplifier

Here's a sweet piece: Krell KAV-280p preamplifier, silver (List $3,500) $1,700 Demo, at Spearitsound.com They also had a used Mac for $899.00. Some decent CJ preamps but I didn't show them since you were pursuing solid state.

If you could swing it that Krell would be the way to go hands down.

[harley .guy07]

The Emotiva xsp is quite big for a preamp but it does have some great features like balanced inputs and a ht bypass that is full range and has a sub control if I choose to use it. I also like that it is quite a bit cheaper than competitive products and the only thing that I wonder is if it will be able to compare to other higher end products in my price range up to around 1500 dollars. If it is anything like their usp-1 except better then it should be able to hang with products in that price range easily. I am just a person that does a lot of studying before I purchase new equipment and with this unit being brand new and not even officially out yet I will have to see if I pull the trigger on it when it comes out.

[harley .guy07]

but the cambridge azur is a very good looking piece I just don't know if it is worth the extra dollars sound wise, I do like Krell as I have heard them before and they are top notch solid state components.

[RGA]

I would like to make one comment on your concern for tube life.

Tube preamplifiers typically use tubes with very very long lives - same for CD players. These are small tubes typically like the 12AX7 variety and will last anywhere from 15,000 to 150,000 hours.

I just reviewed a CD player that has a tube life expectation of 100,000 hours and the manufacturer desires that you leave it on 24/7 (over 11 full years on the tube running 24/7).

And then after all that the tubes in most preamps are of the type that are very inexpensive to replace. My integrated amp costs about $9.00.

So if you look closer this is not an issue to be on when you watch TV or movies. (many tube televisions lasted well over 20 years and the whole thing was a "tube" and most home theaters and most everything else was run with tubes that lasted many many years. People have original ST70 amps with the stock tubes still going after 40 years. My SS highly reviewed SS Arcam was falling apart after 8 years. I've had two receivers die within 5 and that driving dead easy to drive speakers. If my worry is a $9.00 tube (light bulb) replacement that's not a problem.

The concern is the power tubes of tube power amps or bigger integrated. The life of power tubes can be as little as 2000 hours and they also tend to cost a lot more.

[poppachubby]

Agreed. At least consider something hybrid that may be able to meet your needs harley. You will love the mix of SS and tube as it will give dimension and lush texture to the music. I bet you would fall out of your seat hearing what a tube pre could do for your DL3.

On the other hand if Krell or similar brands is what you're seeking, can't go wrong there either.

[harley .guy07]

The only thing that I am worried about with a tube preamp is synergy with a solid state amp. because even if I change from my current amp I am pretty sure I will stay SS. I have seen people succeed at putting the two together before but usually they have had access to several components or just luck out that the synergy works because I know that a tube pre with a ss amp does not always get the results that the person wants and I don't want to play the buy and sell game a bunch of times until I find one that works.

[Mr Peabody]

Harley, you didn't seem to mind my CJ gear too much but for the type of music you listen to I'd say you were on the right track with solid state. If my musical taste wasn't as diverse it's a good possibility I'd still be running Krell. Lush isn't usually a term I hear so much with double kick bass and distortion :) That is better served with bone jarring transient response and gut punching bass. My brother actually was annoyed at me for going tubes, he liked the Krell better, now he calls my system the "Frankenstein" system, I guess because of all the glowing tubes and I have my cages off.

[harley .guy07]

Actually I really enjoyed your CJ gear Mr Peabody and it really made the dynaudio's sound good and I am not against tubes by no means and I do listen to a very wide range of music not just the hard stuff and my interests seem to grow all the time as my system grows as well. I just thought with it being a while at least until a new power amp will be in the cards since I am quite content with the way my adcom pushes the Dynaudio's that a tube pre might not work with the adcom amp very well. Let me know if you think this is wrong because I have never done a lot of trial and error with tube pre's and adcom power amps. If there are any tube pre's you think would have good synergy with ss power amps and have the theater bypass let me know and I will check them out as I am trying to keep an open mind about things until I make a decision for sure.

[RGA]

Harley

Synergy is always the key. A lot of hybrids tend to sound to me like the worst of both worlds not the best of both worlds.

I never understood the main "concept of hybrid systems. People put the tube preamp in largely to get the sound to be good (fuller warmer whatever the words that are used to equal "more right" sounding). But they don't stop to think that gee the reason I need to bother with tubes is because solid state tends to sound horrible. But they say "well I need to buy big high damping factor power amplifiers" to which I wonder again why? The only reason that is necessary is because the speaker designer is incompetent and can't make a good high efficiency speakers (which isn't the same as High Sensitivity). But if the speaker is already bought and won't be removed then so be it. High power tube amps tend to cost a ton. So there is a certain reality check in play that a SS amp will probably be much less expensive to buy and operate. The Grant Fidelity Shengya PM 150 monoblock power amps are 40lbs each use massive transformers first rate build quality and tend not to sound so damn annoying as per most every other SS power amp I've used. It is a hybrid monoblock which is a little different. You don't see this kind of design often in a power amp. 150 watts per channel. If you need more - buy different loudspeakers.

They posted my review of it but they have better pictures http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/Shengya_CV15_PM150

[harley .guy07]

Well i do understand your opinion about the ss vs tube thing from which I have heard you say before in other posts. I have heard great components form both worlds and do not necessarily say that one is better than another all the time. I have heard Mr Peabody's CJ tube components and they sounded excellent and have heard other great tube systems but also have heard total SS components that sound equally excellent just in a different way and I can not say I am a one sided audiophile in either direction. I do believe that most of the SS stuff seems to have a little more detail but the tube stuff has a little more emotion in the midrange but I so far I definitely like solid states bass production better for the most part. which is my opinion on my instrument amps as well as I play Bass and Guitar and will always choose a tube amp due to the frequencies that the guitar play in are the tube amps bread and butter and also the tubes sound so much better overdriven than transisters. On the flip side of that I have played bass for just as long and will always choose SS for my bass heads since they have a more solid and quick bass response that seems to suit that bass guitar perfectly and every time I have tried a tube head for bass I always come back to the the SS heads for which I own one myself because the bass is just better and more reliable. So I see why people choose tubes for that magical midrange but I don't know if I will like the rest of the frequency spectrum with a tube preamp.

[Mr Peabody]

In my experience I have not heard tubes and solid state mixed well either. Well, the Vincent hybrid power amp didn't sound bad. So maybe it's just a synergy issue. I can tell you it's not as easy as just sticking any tube pre with an amp. For tubed preamps to work well with SS the preamp needs a low output impedance, 500 ohms or less is preferred. Then the sonic signatures will have to mesh for good synergy.

Like you Harley I am not a hardliner either way but hear the attributes of both. It seems the differences between tubes and solid state are narrowing in some brands as well. The good tube gear with power or grip costs though.

[frenchmon]

I think those Shengya PM 150 monoblock power amps are really Vincent....good stuff.

[harley .guy07]

It might be just me or is Grant Fidelity taking components and putting their name on them. I have done a lot of searching and have seen components that match up to theirs in every way even physically with out their name on them. I am not a fan of rebadging at all and that was what kept me from buying a dac from them earlier. I am not saying that they are not good quality or anything I am just saying that I would rather buy from the source or at least know of the source first.

[harley .guy07]

I am just wondering if the tube preamp thing is even worth considering. I know that there are brands like Conrad Johnson and others that make top notch tube preamps but I just don't know how they will mesh with a ss amp. I have looked at the Rogue audio persues pretty close and I am still on the hunt.

[Ajani]

It might be just me or is Grant Fidelity taking components and putting their name on them. I have done a lot of searching and have seen components that match up to theirs in every way even physically with out their name on them. I am not a fan of rebadging at all and that was what kept me from buying a dac from them earlier. I am not saying that they are not good quality or anything I am just saying that I would rather buy from the source or at least know of the source first.

Grant has acknowledged that they re-brand products.... I believe they gave some explanation about them being official North American distributors as opposed to the guys on ebay selling the gear out of china...

Interestingly enough, considering your current question of pairing tubes and SS; I had considered trying out a GF tube buffer in my system... It would be much cheaper than a decent tube pre and I could just remove it if the effects were less than positive...

Note: A buffer adds something unnecessary to the signal path...

[Ajani]

I am just wondering if the tube preamp thing is even worth considering. I know that there are brands like Conrad Johnson and others that make top notch tube preamps but I just don't know how they will mesh with a ss amp. I have looked at the Rogue audio persues pretty close and I am still on the hunt.

I also recently considered the Rogue Audio Metis Pre, between my DAC1 and XPA2, but as positive as all the reviews are they all mention some amount of noise... Considering how noise free my system is now, I'm afraid that the Tube pre would mess things up...

[poppachubby]

I've already given my 0.02 regarding the pre harley, I feel like this conversation is leaning towards SS v Tubes...yet again. I say get what you feel comfortable with.

I just wanted to chime in about Grant. The way it works is like this...they go to China and find the gear that they like. Then Ian Grant makes modifications as he sees fit. Once the new design is put together and ready for production, he gets a 2 year exclusive on it.

So, the stuff you see selling on Ebay during the 2 year exclusivity is actually not exactly the same. It's not SUPPOSED to be anyhow.

The DAC-09 has hit it's 2 year mark and you'll notice that Grant has significantly dropped their price. I have 5 of their new Psvane tubes coming for my pre amp. I am really excited about it.

Anyhow good luck with your search.

[poppachubby]

Grant has acknowledged that they re-brand products.... I believe they gave some explanation about them being official North American distributors as opposed to the guys on ebay selling the gear out of china...

Interestingly enough, considering your current question of pairing tubes and SS; I had considered trying out a GF tube buffer in my system... It would be much cheaper than a decent tube pre and I could just remove it if the effects were less than positive...

Note: A buffer adds something unnecessary to the signal path...

Signal purity aside, I think those buffers are for the most part, false economy. I am always telling people to continue saving for a true tube pre. The difference in SQ will far exceed the difference in money.

There's the GF buffer's and also the Bellari phono pre's which are great products, but I think through reviews and such, people have been misled as to how good they are.

[Ajani]

Signal purity aside, I think those buffers are for the most part, false economy. I am always telling people to continue saving for a true tube pre. The difference in SQ will far exceed the difference in money.

There's the GF buffer's and also the Bellari phono pre's which are great products, but I think through reviews and such, people have been misled as to how good they are.

I think we should take it a step further and blame Musical Fidelity for making the tube buffer famous with their X 10-D & Stereophile Class A rated X 10 V3 tube buffers...

And yes I do hear that a tube pre is supposed to be quite a big step up from just dumping a buffer in your system... But the buffers will always be an attractive first step due to their low price... A tube pre is a much bigger risk...

BTW, I don't think this thread is descending into tube vs SS (I hope not anyway), as both clearly have their own advantages and disadvantages... The question is just whether they can easily be mixed to get a best of both worlds hybrid...

For the record, the best sounding (attainable) system I've heard used a Musical Fidelity hybrid integrated amp; tube pre and SS power...

[poppachubby]

The question is just whether they can easily be mixed to get a best of both worlds hybrid...

For the record, the best sounding (attainable) system I've heard used a Musical Fidelity hybrid integrated amp; tube pre and SS power...

The answer is..."As easily as SS/SS and tube/tube."

It just seems to me that it's being implied that a person can just slap in any mirrored technology and not have to worry about synergy. This of course is completely false.

Introducing a new piece of gear, especially as significant as a pre, is a risk anyway you look at it. harley's system is well established, who's to say if SS will voice it better than tube?

Much like you, I have had HUGE success with mixed systems. I just removed an SS pre from my main system, and put in tubes. I am still wondering if I like it better or not. I will put in esoteric tubes before making a full decision.

Anyhow I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but this is usually how the fun starts.

[Ajani]

The answer is..."As easily as SS/SS and tube/tube."

It just seems to me that it's being implied that a person can just slap in any mirrored technology and not have to worry about synergy. This of course is completely false.

Introducing a new piece of gear, especially as significant as a pre, is a risk anyway you look at it. harley's system is well established, who's to say if SS will voice it better than tube?

Much like you, I have had HUGE success with mixed systems. I just removed an SS pre from my main system, and put in tubes. I am still wondering if I like it better or not. I will put in esoteric tubes before making a full decision.

Anyhow I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but this is usually how the fun starts.

Dang, that's a good point!!! Just mixing in a SS with another SS is no guarantee of success... Synergy is everything... It's why I generally like to stick to one brand (when possible) rather than playing mix and match... Usually (though not always) going with one brand means you can expect good system synergy...

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...

[poppachubby]

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...

I agree fully. Salvatore has a great snippet about this topic. He basically says never to buy new unless you are 100% certain about the product, it's sound in your system and that you in fact want to keep it for some time. This way you almost never lose money except for shipping perhaps, but even then, money can be made on an item occasionaly.

I know where harley is coming from, it's a headache to think about buying and returning/selling. This is unfortunately the cost of getting exactly the right sound for yourself. I am fortunate to have 2 local shops who between the 2, have a wide variety of brands. I can't count how many times I have been able to audition an item, and find out it's not for me, only because of these stores.

My system is done, at least for several years and quite frankly I am happy about it. I don't particularily enjoy the work that must go into it, but it's most definitely worth it.

I think if harley has any curiousity about tubes, the only solution will be to try something out.

[Feanor]

Dang, that's a good point!!! Just mixing in a SS with another SS is no guarantee of success... Synergy is everything... It's why I generally like to stick to one brand (when possible) rather than playing mix and match... Usually (though not always) going with one brand means you can expect good system synergy...

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...
Damn this synergy thing! :mad: For course it's true you can have bad synergy, but you are much less likely to have it if you have components that are (1) well designed for output & input impedance, and (2) inherently clean and neutral sounding.

As for output / input impedance, a ratio of 1:10 is likely to be just fine, though some argue that 1:100 is better. Thus my Sonic Frontiers tube preamp is 300 ohms output and my current Class-D-Audio amp is a conventional, (for S/S), 47k ohms, a nice 1:156 ratio. But for some reason it is tube equipment that is likely to have wacky output/input impedances, e.g. a 1200 output preamp matched with a 10k input power amp could problematic.

A couple of things to note: first, the manufacturers' usual stated reason for tube buffers is better impedance matching. Secondly, tube preamps don't have to have poor output impedance, (though many do); e.g. cathode-follower designs, (such as the Sonic Frontiers), typically present a good output impedance.

Another thing is that some tube preamps (and amps) are more neutral than others. E.g. at least for older models, Conrad Johnson models were considered 'warn' and generally 'tube-like', while Audio Research were more neutral. (Mr Peabody assures us that current CJ efforts are not so excessively tubey.) Sonic Frontier was notoriously neutral, i.e. neutral-to-fault according to the taste of some tubophiles. Actually, I agree with the sentiment. When I first installed the SF the character was exactly like the passive pre I'd been using previously, (Adcom 750); to get it sounding even a bit "tube-like" I had to do a lot of tube rolling.

[Ajani]

I agree fully. Salvatore has a great snippet about this topic. He basically says never to buy new unless you are 100% certain about the product, it's sound in your system and that you in fact want to keep it for some time. This way you almost never lose money except for shipping perhaps, but even then, money can be made on an item occasionaly.

I know where harley is coming from, it's a headache to think about buying and returning/selling. This is unfortunately the cost of getting exactly the right sound for yourself. I am fortunate to have 2 local shops who between the 2, have a wide variety of brands. I can't count how many times I have been able to audition an item, and find out it's not for me, only because of these stores.

My system is done, at least for several years and quite frankly I am happy about it. I don't particularily enjoy the work that must go into it, but it's most definitely worth it.

I think if harley has any curiousity about tubes, the only solution will be to try something out.

That is one area where I have no questions about Salvatore's advice... If I had a good used market here I'd have a great time trying out different brands... Sadly cuz I have to buy just about anything without auditioning (current models anyway), I do as Feanor suggested and look for fairly neutral products (based on reviews and user feedback)... Actually I'm willing to have one non-neutral product in the chain to add excitement or warmth, so if things don't quite sound right I know what to ditch...

[harley .guy07]

I am not a fan of adding things into the signal path like a tube buffer but I am thinking different thoughts about preamps right now as I am starting to get a interest in the tube preamp thing and some of the research I have done has backed up some peoples claims about putting a tube pre with ss amps. Some are against it and some are for it. Theres really only one way to see if it works for me and that is to try it. I will be checking the gon to see what is out there as I have been already. I am just thinking that buying a ss preamp that is middle of the road will not give me a lot more than what I have now. Maybe a little but less bright and better soundstaging but overall I am looking for vast improvements if I am going to spend the kind of money I am looking at spending.

[harley .guy07]

I will add that a higher end SS preamp would be a big improvement over my receiver don't get me wrong but I am looking for a little bit more involvement form my system. My speakers are great. My source components are great and I still like my adcom power amp even though it seems to be a controversial piece nowadays but I still like it but I know for music my Yamaha is the weakest link in a big way and I am looking for something that will put a bit more emotion in my music not just the detail and dynamics which are there now in a big way. If I could get the dynamics and detail I have now with more emotion to the music I would be happy.

[Mr Peabody]

True, CJ's rep was a "glowing" midrange. The CT-6 is a departure and I'd bet their other higher end preamps are. I haven't heard the Classic but with a name like that I wouldn't count on neutrality. It would be interesting to hear how ARC would sound with the darker Adcom.

[poppachubby]

If I could get the dynamics and detail I have now with more emotion to the music I would be happy.


Exactly. A decent tube pre will extend detail and warmth to the mid range, which is quite frankly where a large part of emotion lives. Things like vocals will be greatly enhanced. The other difference would be in presentation with tubes adding more dimensionality to the imaging and staging.

On really well produced LPs, with only 2 or 3 players, the staging I get is incredible. Height, depth and fully 3D. I find the effect is lessened the more players there are.

I would also like to add harley that IMO, the heart of musical emotion is mostly in dynamic range. Quiet/loud is the biggest part of how an artist conveys music emotionally. Anything you can do to extend your range, ie. reduce noise, would be the best way to bring out more emotion.

Of all the small things I have done to tweak and improve, the efforts to increase low level detail have been the most rewarding. Not just for the reason of hearing everything in a mix, but rather for the increased dynamic range.

[frenchmon]

...and let us not forget...emotion and romance has a lot to do with speakers as well. Some just dont have it.

[Mr Peabody]

"Emotion" is another subjective, we all react to different aspects of the musical presentation. So what brings me emotion out of my music may not be a trigger for some one else. There's plenty of gear, even high end, I would not own, but it must bring some one emotion or the companys wouldn't still be in business. it's not accurate to say "a speaker doesn't have emotion", you may even find those who agree, it's more accurate to say, "I find no emotion with this speaker". As an example, the riff between solids state and tube owners, do you think some one like RGA would find emotion in Krell or Bryston? Where those who love Krell and Bryston wouldn't find emotion in tubes, it wouldn't bring them the satisfaction they get from the SS powerhouses.

[frenchmon]

would you say some speakers are completely free of coloration? ...and that some display some level of coloration? Would you say some speakers have a better presentation with the voices and warmth? With the degree of warmth ... presentation, color and dynamic....some speakers are said to display emotion and romance....but yet this has to touch the listener or not.

[harley .guy07]

I like the Dynaudio sound as I have heard it through several systems and I know the issues with my system is not my speakers. I do know that I am running a very good dac and disc player and a good amplifier and this is all going through a good receiver but I am expecting too much out of it with the caliber of equipment around it. I am fine with it for HT but for music I am quite confident that it is surely my week link and I need a dedicated preamp. I am just at a crossroads as too which direction to go with a preamp. But for right now I am leaning towards the tube idea because of the things that I am missing in my system seem to be tubes strong suit.

[frenchmon]

Hi Harley....IF you like the sound of your speakers...the Dyns, maybe you would be better serverd to look for gear with a more lively sound rather than something that was nutral or laid back.

[harley .guy07]

I am not looking to change the sound character of my system, as far as my tastes are concerned the character is great I am just looking for more emotion or depth in the sound. There are times when a system can give you great dynamics and balance in your sound but the only thing that is missing is that emotion or soul to the music and to me the speakers have nothing to do with it because I have heard dynaudios have this soul and adcom amps as well, And I know my Dac and transport are not the issue but running a mid level receiver as a preamp is most likely the soul robbing culprit of the sound. My Yamaha gives me good balance and dynamics and I am glad for that and I know that adcom and dynaudio sound great together so everything is pointing towards my yamaha which is great for theater but it just does not have the soul I want. I guess that is par for the source since my receiver is probably the cheapest part of my two channel system and for that matter the only piece in it that is mass market variety or Dept. store variety.

[Feanor]

I am not looking to change the sound character of my system, as far as my tastes are concerned the character is great I am just looking for more emotion or depth in the sound. There are times when a system can give you great dynamics and balance in your sound but the only thing that is missing is that emotion or soul to the music ....
Are we supposed to know what your purely subjective terms like "emotion", "depth of sound", "soul" of the music actually mean? Please be more objective in you desciptions. As it is, it sounds like so much humbug.

Maybe start by get yourself a classic tube preamp like a '70s CJ which coats the music with chocolate icing and see if that does it for you.

Or possibly your're just getting bored listening to music; next time you go to switch on you hi-fi, go watch football or something instead.

[harley .guy07]

Are we supposed to know what your purely subjective terms like "emotion", "depth of sound", "soul" of the music actually mean? Please be more objective in you desciptions. As it is, it sounds like so much humbug.

Maybe start by get yourself a classic tube preamp like a '70s CJ which coats the music with chocolate icing and see if that does it for you.

Or possibly your're just getting bored listening to music; next time you go to switch on you hi-fi, go watch football or something instead.


Believe me I am not bored listening to music and I have plenty of other things I do that split up the free time I have, I ride harleys, I am a gun target shooter, I play music instruments, and plus I am starting to attend a university for electrical engineering classes. So I have plenty to keep me busy and I don't think what I am saying is humbug. Sometimes your system just has a slight bit of something missing from it and there is no harm in asking a few forum friends for their advise, if you are bothered by this then go look at someone else's thread that does not sound so humbug. If you ever heard a guitar played through an amp that does not have soul to it or emotion to the sound, then go to a local guitar shop and listen to someone play some blues through a dry amp with dry sound then let someone play a fender strat through a vintage fender 410 amp and you will know what I mean.

[Trinity]

Harley,

Are you searching for a better SQ in your HT or 2ch?

[harley .guy07]

Harley,

Are you searching for a better SQ in your HT or 2ch?

I am pretty satisfied with my theater setup as I listen to music a lot more seriously as I listen to my theater when I play movies or watch tv. Music is one of my passions and that what I am concerned more with.

[Trinity]

So you use the same set up for both HT and Music?

I am pretty satisfied with my theater setup as I listen to music a lot more seriously as I listen to my theater when I play movies or watch tv. Music is one of my passions and that what I am concerned more with.

[02audionoob]

I'm still not finished reading this thread but it's tempting me to try my Adcom GFA-545II on the outputs of my Audio Research CA50, just for grins.

[Feanor]

...
Sometimes your system just has a slight bit of something missing from it and there is no harm in asking a few forum friends for their advise, if you are bothered by this then go look at someone else's thread that does not sound so humbug. If you ever heard a guitar played through an amp that does not have soul to it or emotion to the sound, then go to a local guitar shop and listen to someone play some blues through a dry amp with dry sound then let someone play a fender strat through a vintage fender 410 amp and you will know what I mean.
I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude. The trouble is that I have been listening for terms like "soul" for a long time and still don't have a satisfactory defintion.

Perhaps the problem is that I listen almost exclusively to classical music, including large-scale orchestral and choral works. Here instrument separation, (i.e transparency; "air"), and accurate instrument timbres are highly important. These qualities -- to some extent -- cannot totally coexist with what I construe when people talk about "soul" (for example). The fact is that string instruments and brass can sound quite strident, (or "harsh" of you will). If instruments are sounding strident -- either because that's they way were played, or because that was the character of the recording venue, or that was the decission of the recording engineer -- then that's the way I want to hear. Thanks, but I don't want any "soul" added to the sound.

[poppachubby]

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude. The trouble is that I have been listening for terms like "soul" for a long time and still don't have a satisfactory defintion.

Perhaps the problem is that I listen almost exclusively to classical music, including large-scale orchestral and choral works.

That's exactly the problem, traditionally, classical listeners defined music as a strictly celebral activity. :Yawn:

I know EXACTLY what harley was talking about, because it was the same path I was on. Immediacy, soul, emotion...whatever you want to call it. It's a presentation and sound which grabs you and shoves you forcefully into your seat, not allowing you to leave. It's the sound which you think about when you are away from home, itching to get back and have a session.

Measurements and accuracy are fine and dandy, usefull and occasionally necessary. That said, give me a system which connects the music to me on a "higher level" and makes the hairs on my arms stand on end.

For those who cannot feel the music in such a manner, I may suggest that your system needs a tweak or two. I would also suggest using a lighter to quickly burn a portion of your skin, make sure you feel it as you could very well be dead.

[Ajani]

That's exactly the problem, traditionally, classical listeners defined music as a strictly celebral activity. :Yawn:

I know EXACTLY what harley was talking about, because it was the same path I was on. Immediacy, soul, emotion...whatever you want to call it. It's a presentation and sound which grabs you and shoves you forcefully into your seat, not allowing you to leave. It's the sound which you think about when you are away from home, itching to get back and have a session.

Measurements and accuracy are fine and dandy, usefull and occasionally necessary. That said, give me a system which connects the music to me on a "higher level" and makes the hairs on my arms stand on end.

For those who cannot feel the music in such a manner, I may suggest that your system needs a tweak or two. I would also suggest using a lighter to quickly burn a portion of your skin, make sure you feel it as you could very well be dead.

You sound like you should have an all Naim setup...

Anyway this is part of why we have so many never ending debates in HiFi: we all have different sonic priorities...

Take even a term like accuracy, what does it mean?

Is it as Feanor said that if the instruments sound harsh in real life, then they sound harsh in the playback of the recording?

Suppose I play a dance track and my HiFi gets me up on my feet dancing like a madman, but the sound is not 100% true to the original recording, could that be considered accurate to the aim of the recording (to get my body moving)?

Or take for example the concept of planar, open baffle, dipole or even Bose 901 speakers which is to recreate the Concert Hall ambiance: These speakers are creating a concert hall effect that is not contained in the original recording, so they are inaccurate in that way... However, they will create an experience listening to classical music, that is more like the live experience than other systems, so could they be considered accurate in that way?

[Feanor]

That's exactly the problem, traditionally, classical listeners defined music as a strictly celebral activity. :Yawn:
....
Ah, PC, you are quite mistaken. To say that music is, for classical listeners, is "strictly a cerebral activity" is utterly wrong. But perhaps it's true the classical listeners are more likely to be enthused by accuracy than other listeners.

[Feanor]

....
Or take for example the concept of planar, open baffle, dipole or even Bose 901 speakers which is to recreate the Concert Hall ambiance: These speakers are creating a concert hall effect that is not contained in the original recording, so they are inaccurate in that way... However, they will create an experience listening to classical music, that is more like the live experience than other systems, so could they be considered accurate in that way?
This is a valid point. Yes, personally I do agree that the sense of presence that dipoles convey is largely an artifact. It's worth mentioning, though, that it doesn't come at the expense of transparency or accuracy in other respects.

(The less said about the Bose 901, the better, however.)

[Ajani]

This is a valid point. Yes, personally I do agree that the sense of presence that dipoles convey is largely an artifact. It's worth mentioning, though, that it doesn't come at the expense of transparency or accuracy in other respects.

(The less said about the Bose 901, the better, however.)

LOL... I know it's an offense to describe what the 901 attempts to do as being similar to dipoles, but that is what they were originally designed for... It's just that dipoles have accomplished the goal while still producing audiophile quality sound...

[harley .guy07]

I know that a lot of people that listen to classical want the up most in detail and transparency and I want that as well but I do not want my system to sound to analytical and dry and I also don't want my system to color the sound at all but I know when stevie ray vaughan plays plays on my system I want all the origional sound and bite and soul from his amplifiers to come through my system without sounding dry and boring. I know some people will get what I am talking about and some people will not and that is fine, I do know that classical music also has a feel to it and a depth and emotion that a dry system will not bring through that is a part of the original recording. I am just trying to take out the weak link out of the two channel part of my system and get the most out of the good equipment that I have and get a preamp that will take my system to the next level and that is all I ask.

[poppachubby]

OK, so do you have a short list at this point harley? If you can find an older tube pre, like an EICO, I have an excellent tech who can fix it up for you. His prices are VERY reasonable. He is a mod at the Yahoo EICO group, and is quite known for his knowledge and work. Lucky for me, he lives here in the same city as me. He also worked on my Ampeg and brought it back to it's glory days. He has done work for people the world over. They ship it to him for his golden touch.

A link to his site (my V4 is pictured)... http://sites.google.com/site/vintagetubeaudio/home




Keep in mind that these older units used to be a bit of a secret, but it's been out for some time. As a result, units in good condition with original tubes can fetch anywhere from $400 - $500!!

I bought mine fully functional, with original Mullards for $100. The work I had done after that, including a phono mod to one of the most accurate RIAA curves, cost $260. So at $360 I am still profitable on the market. But harley, why the hell would I ever sell it?!? I swear it competes with different units right on up to $1000. Of course the PSA GCPH will slaughter it, but otherwise it's a gem.

OK enough blabbing. Have your cash ready and you must viligantly search the usual avenues.

[Ajani]

I know that a lot of people that listen to classical want the up most in detail and transparency and I want that as well but I do not want my system to sound to analytical and dry and I also don't want my system to color the sound at all but I know when stevie ray vaughan plays plays on my system I want all the origional sound and bite and soul from his amplifiers to come through my system without sounding dry and boring. I know some people will get what I am talking about and some people will not and that is fine, I do know that classical music also has a feel to it and a depth and emotion that a dry system will not bring through that is a part of the original recording. I am just trying to take out the weak link out of the two channel part of my system and get the most out of the good equipment that I have and get a preamp that will take my system to the next level and that is all I ask.

I suspect that the issue may not be that you need to go tube or SS, but just that you need a better pre than the Yamaha... I'd suggest taking a pre home from a dealer to audition if possible, otherwise order one online from a store/manufacturer with a 30 day in home trial...

You could try out the Emotiva USP-1 for example to see if it would solve the problem... You could always return it and purchase something else...

[Feanor]

I mentioned that early, Harley, and I was just being facetious. HERE (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1293079223&/Conrad-Johnson-PV-7-with-mm-ph) is nice older CJ on Audiogon that you might consider. It has phono section too. Read about the PV-7 on the CJ website, here (http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/a-PV7.html).

http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1287965031.jpg

[harley .guy07]

That looks like a nice looking preamp and it would probably make my system sound a heck of a lot better than my yamaha the only thing is the theater bypass option is not there. I do know that you can match levels when using the input out of the yamaha and a theater bypass is not necessary or just plain change cables around when music is going to be played but I am trying to keep that from being needed. I have been looking at musical design preamps, they have two the chameleon and an SP-2B that they said they could put a theater bypass in even though it does not normally come with one. they do extensive mods on adcom and hafler amps as well and every component they make has the ability to be modified to fit the persons budget and needs like theater bypasses and phono inputs or whatever else is needed. I am in the process of talking to them about pricing me a preamp with a theater bypass and other options that are available. I am still not sold on what direction I will take and that's usually how I am until I make a decision and stick with it like with my speakers but hopefully I will be able to get something I can keep for a long time and enjoy because I am not a person that buys and sells equipment all the time. And if I get around to it I might send musical design about taking my 545 series 2 adcom to the next level as well sense I still like it and they say they can take adcoms to levels most people can't believe until they hear them.

[Poultrygeist]

I've heard this preamp and it is beyond belief.

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

[frenchmon]

I am not looking to change the sound character of my system, as far as my tastes are concerned the character is great I am just looking for more emotion or depth in the sound. There are times when a system can give you great dynamics and balance in your sound but the only thing that is missing is that emotion or soul to the music and to me the speakers have nothing to do with it because I have heard dynaudios have this soul and adcom amps as well, And I know my Dac and transport are not the issue but running a mid level receiver as a preamp is most likely the soul robbing culprit of the sound. My Yamaha gives me good balance and dynamics and I am glad for that and I know that adcom and dynaudio sound great together so everything is pointing towards my yamaha which is great for theater but it just does not have the soul I want. I guess that is par for the source since my receiver is probably the cheapest part of my two channel system and for that matter the only piece in it that is mass market variety or Dept. store variety.

No...my point was that Dyns have a more laid back not lively sound but with great dynamic in what it does do. You may not want your new gear to have that same characteristic. Unless you like that characteristic.

[poppachubby]

I used to know a guy named frenchmon

[frenchmon]

That looks like a nice looking preamp and it would probably make my system sound a heck of a lot better than my yamaha the only thing is the theater bypass option is not there. I do know that you can match levels when using the input out of the yamaha and a theater bypass is not necessary or just plain change cables around when music is going to be played but I am trying to keep that from being needed. I have been looking at musical design preamps, they have two the chameleon and an SP-2B that they said they could put a theater bypass in even though it does not normally come with one. they do extensive mods on adcom and hafler amps as well and every component they make has the ability to be modified to fit the persons budget and needs like theater bypasses and phono inputs or whatever else is needed. I am in the process of talking to them about pricing me a preamp with a theater bypass and other options that are available. I am still not sold on what direction I will take and that's usually how I am until I make a decision and stick with it like with my speakers but hopefully I will be able to get something I can keep for a long time and enjoy because I am not a person that buys and sells equipment all the time. And if I get around to it I might send musical design about taking my 545 series 2 adcom to the next level as well sense I still like it and they say they can take adcoms to levels most people can't believe until they hear them.

Harley...the Musical Designs pre would be a great preamp for you...totally high end and miles above the Yammie. In fact I've heard the Chameleon pre and amp paired with some Galo speakers with Analyst Plus cabes ....sounded lively and would mate with your Dyns. In fact Musical Designs is right here in St.Louis/O Fallon Mo. I was talking to them about moding my Adcom amphttp://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_AdcomAmp_mods.html...and they want to give my Rotel amp a more tubed sound character for $400 claims. Probably wont do that tho.

[frenchmon]

I used to know a guy named frenchmon

Hey chubbs...ima still around. What up???

[harley .guy07]

I have been doing some more research and have been looking at the Nuforce p8s which is small physically but from what I am read on it it seems to have everything I like put into one package. It has the smoothness and midrange of tube designs and has the things I like from solid state as well as far as a very good bass and treble that is extended. And I also like the fact that it is compact and its a newer design which I think is pretty cool. If any of you guys have worked with this pre let me know what you think. I am still not ruling out the musical design pre I am just making sure I am getting what I want the first time since in my opinion the preamp is one of the more important purchases in a system in my opinion.

[poppachubby]

harley is the gain generated by the tubes? If not, and the tubes are simply a buffer, I would try to audition first. Then again if all reviews are glowing perhaps it's worthwhile.

I have put a set of high end tubes into my pre and the result is beyond expectation. If you end up with something tubed, i would suggest looking into a tube upgrade right off the hop if the stock tubes aren't esoteric. The difference is staggering.

You wanted emotion, my system is nothing but. These tubes have added a realism and immediacy that's addictive.

[harley .guy07]

Actually the Nuforce is not a tubed design. I have read some press on it and it is a new design that uses a digital type power supply with a conventional type out put and from what I have read in reviews it has a very warm and smooth midrange like tubes but the bass and treble have the detail of SS designs. It just makes me think that maybe this is exactly what I need is a unit that has both qualities while being very efficient and not a overly huge unit. They even said in some reviews that I have read that this unit has awesome soundstaging and imaging of tube amps quite a bit higher priced but has more detail. I will let you guys know with more research and time because I am not in a hurry and want to go the right direction. If anyone has any input let me know.

[Mr Peabody]

www.acousticsounds.com used to carry Nuforce and probably still does if you wanted to try the piece with a return policy. A local guy is a Nuforce dealer and may be able to cut you a deal, email me if you get serious and i can send you his info.

[Ajani]

AudioAdvisor has Nuforce now...

[harley .guy07]

www.acousticsounds.com used to carry Nuforce and probably still does if you wanted to try the piece with a return policy. A local guy is a Nuforce dealer and may be able to cut you a deal, email me if you get serious and i can send you his info.

I will if I do decide to get serious about this unit. Do you go buy this guys shop very often or know what his opinion about the nuforce preamps are. They have two model, one with a separate power supply chassis and the other that has a integrated power supply which is the one I would be interested in due to price range. From what I have read they are some of the best options out there for their price and while not being tube models they do have tube like qualities with the detail and bass of SS.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not out there a lot. I don't remember him commenting on the preamps but he did say he was driving a set of Def Techs with a Halo A21 and replaced the A21 with the Nuforce power amp and he liked the improvement. He was a real Halo fan, he thought it might have just been synergy, and it could have been, but there was improvement nonetheless.

[harley .guy07]

I'm not out there a lot. I don't remember him commenting on the preamps but he did say he was driving a set of Def Techs with a Halo A21 and replaced the A21 with the Nuforce power amp and he liked the improvement. He was a real Halo fan, he thought it might have just been synergy, and it could have been, but there was improvement nonetheless.

Well thats a pretty good shout out to Nuforce even though it was their amp and not their preamp but I have heard the same things about their amps and preamps so it might be a good product not just another got good reviews product that you find out is being hipped due to advertising in their magazine. I do like the looks of the unit too it is smaller in size and very basic and trim looking. There is absolutely nothing that is not needed on this unit.