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atomicAdam
11-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

dakatabg
11-04-2010, 08:24 PM
Sounds good but many arguments will occur

atomicAdam
11-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Pretty sure most of the members here are used to that sort of thing.

Ajani
11-04-2010, 08:27 PM
That's the classic debate...

IMO, the best reviews (though not really practical for the reviewer, unless he has a load of different gear lying around) would be to review items with both like priced gear and his reference (ultra-expensive setup)... Also, he can review it with cheaper gear to see how much of the sound quality is sacrificed that way...

Picking just one of the 3 options will always limit the usefulness of the review...

If you review the item with reference level gear, then that says nothing of whether it would work with the kind of gear persons are likely to match it to..

If you review it with similarly priced gear, then you never know if it is a rare jewel that should really be paired with more expensive gear...

If you review it with really cheap gear, then you are not experiencing what it is really capable of, nor comparing it with the kind of gear it will likely be matched with...


IF, I had to pick one and only one, I'd go with pairing it with reference gear to know how the product fares in absolute terms... Though, I'm sure many persons would prefer it to be paired with similar priced gear...

harley .guy07
11-04-2010, 08:35 PM
I see no problems with it myself seeing that a lot of very expensive components have been embarrassed by lower priced more budget minded high end stuff so I think price should not be a killer on if two components could be compared. I have seen many people pair very expensive speakers with more budget high end amps and preamps and have excellent results. Go for it is what I say but there will be people out there that are opposed to this type of thing for several reasons including seeing some components for what they are which are overpriced gear with no reasonable improvement in sound compared to lower priced stuff.

atomicAdam
11-04-2010, 08:50 PM
I agree with you Ajani - The more the better - but I really mean just to pick one.

See - right now I'm kind of torn - I as a reader - have sometime been pretty ticked to see a $20,000 CDP as a source for $800 speakers. I kind of feel it isn't fair at all to the reader because if they are in the market for $800 speakers they, assuming of course, are probably not in the market for a $20,000 CDP. To me that is absolutely not fair to make that pairing.

But, conversely, I do see it as completely fair to pair something of lower cost to a system of much higher cost because than the reviewer would/should be able to, as you pointed out, to learn what the entry level gear can do, given the most/best opportunity to shine. Fair or not fair to the reader, it is more fair to the equipment.

Now, I'd never think it was fair to reviewer, manufacturer, or reader to pair an extensively pricey product with gear 10x of lesser value. Even if the lower costing gear are jewels among the thorns, it almost certainly isn't going to be paired that way in the purchasers home.

02audionoob
11-04-2010, 09:09 PM
If I had to choose only one scenario, I'd want the review with comparably priced components. If a source's sound has a flaw that only associated gear at 10x the source's cost can reveal, I might not be interested in learning about that.

RGA
11-04-2010, 09:58 PM
It has nothing really to do with cost but rather design. But I have debated this with reviewers before. However, there are some politics involved with reviewing gear that can't be avoided. My system is in a certain price range - the fact that it may sound better than many $100,000 systems is totally irrelevant because the manufacture of an $80,000 CD player is not going to give me their player because the review won't be taken seriously amongst those people who own half million dollar stereos. Further, it is highly unlikely that I would purchase the reviewed product given my budget so they also can't make a sale.

Personally, I am not all that interested in reviewing $50k pieces because they're probably all very good but who is reading? The rich guys which are fewer in numbers and the ones who are audiophiles with that kind of money are not buying based on reviews.

The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.

Hyfi
11-05-2010, 02:58 AM
I am all for reviewing a $1000 amp and a $20,000 amp when it is clearly shown that the gain is not that great when using the latter.

I also think that it should be demonstrated that a $1k amp will drive a pair of $40,000 speakers and you don't need a $10k amp to do the job.

But you never see those kind of reviews because it undermines the manufactures and sellers of ridiculously high end items, which are really more art than actually being 19000 times better than the low end bargain such as a Stratos amp.

I certainly enjoyed listening to $100k systems when I had the chance but I also think it's a crazy hobby for those with disposable cash.

kexodusc
11-05-2010, 04:18 AM
What's your goal?

Is it to entertain? Most of the gear reviews I read through magazine subscriptions, web posts, and online rags are mostly a form of diversion. If it is, then yeah, mixing with unrealistic complementary gear is fine, and many would argue more interesting.

Is it to provide a benchmark for potential purchasing decisions? In that case I think there's far more value in the review to sticking with gear in a somewhat reasonable range price-wise, because it bears a better resemeblance to how users will actually use the equipment.

That said, I have found weak correlation (but still positive) between price and performance of gear so that range might necessarily need to be large anyway.

Hey, if you never compared a $300 piece to a $3000 piece, or a $5000 model to a $50,000 model, we'd never learn where the great-value products are!

Would it just not be possible to do both, include the super expensive piece, and a more homogenous unit? It seems to me getting the more expensive unit is usually the hardest part.

Ajani
11-05-2010, 04:27 AM
I am all for reviewing a $1000 amp and a $20,000 amp when it is clearly shown that the gain is not that great when using the latter.

I also think that it should be demonstrated that a $1k amp will drive a pair of $40,000 speakers and you don't need a $10k amp to do the job.

But you never see those kind of reviews because it undermines the manufactures and sellers of ridiculously high end items, which are really more art than actually being 19000 times better than the low end bargain such as a Stratos amp.

I certainly enjoyed listening to $100k systems when I had the chance but I also think it's a crazy hobby for those with disposable cash.

While I agree with your general point, you can't use the word "never" as there are many reviews that do as you stated... It's just that the majority of reviews don't...

For example, The Absolute Sound's review of the Odyssey Audio Khartago:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tas-195-odyssey-audio-khartago-stereo-amplifier

Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...

Ajani
11-05-2010, 04:34 AM
It has nothing really to do with cost but rather design. But I have debated this with reviewers before. However, there are some politics involved with reviewing gear that can't be avoided. My system is in a certain price range - the fact that it may sound better than many $100,000 systems is totally irrelevant because the manufacture of an $80,000 CD player is not going to give me their player because the review won't be taken seriously amongst those people who own half million dollar stereos. Further, it is highly unlikely that I would purchase the reviewed product given my budget so they also can't make a sale.

I agree with the CD manufacturer... What would be the point of you reviewing an $80K CD player? If you say it's the best CD player you've ever heard, who cares? Chances are that's because it's also by far the most expensive CD player you've ever had in your setup, so that doesn't tell a potential buyer whether it really sounds like an $80K CD player should... If you say it sounds no better than your $4K CD player, then the question will be asked whether your system is good enough to discern the difference anyway... So other than to potentially make those of us who can't afford the really expensive gear feel better about ourselves, what would be the point?


I've actually seen a few of those 'nonsense' reviews: where a guy with the cheapest NAD CD/Integrated amp combo and some PSB Image speakers attempts to review a $5K pair of speakers... SHOCKINGLY, the $5K speakers were the best sound he had ever heard in his system...


Also, any affordable system can sound better than a $100K one, based on your preferences... So you may find that your SET/High Efficiency setup sounds better than a $100K Megawatt SS/Low Efficiency system... That doesn't mean that your system it is up to the standard of a $100K SET/HE system...


Personally, I am not all that interested in reviewing $50k pieces because they're probably all very good but who is reading? The rich guys which are fewer in numbers and the ones who are audiophiles with that kind of money are not buying based on reviews.

The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.

That is a question I asked sometime ago on the Stereophile forums. According to John Atkinson their surveys indicate that their readers prefer to read about more expensive gear (above $10K) than the more affordable stuff they might realistically be able to buy... Considering how good Stereophile's sales are, I guess there really are a lot of persons interested in reading about ultra-expensive gear...

I, however, almost never read a review of ultra-expensive gear as it is completely irrelevant to my buying decisions... I could conceivably buy gear below $10K (even if not in the immediate future), but looking at $50K pieces is like reading a review of a Ferrari...

Hyfi
11-05-2010, 04:44 AM
While I agree with your general point, you can't use the word "never" as there are many reviews that do as you stated... It's just that the majority of reviews don't...

For example, The Absolute Sound's review of the Odyssey Audio Khartago:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tas-195-odyssey-audio-khartago-stereo-amplifier

Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...


OK so I can't say never. Good review pointed out and that is what us little guys need to see and understand.

I read Stereophile for many years but got bored with the high brow ratings and reviews. Almost every reviewer used classical or other music most don't listen to for reviews anyway. It was nice eye candy for several years anyway.

atomicAdam
11-05-2010, 05:52 AM
... I could conceivably buy gear below $10K (even if not in the immediate future), but looking at $50K pieces is like reading a review of a Ferrari...

Why read about a Ferrari when you can watch TopGear put it though some absolutely crazy challenge, with good cinematography and music.

atomicAdam
11-05-2010, 06:02 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that actually liking the sound of a system has very little to do with the quality of it. This is obvious and I think we'd kind of all agree with this, but....

I think things like staging, resolution, timing, accuracy, dynamics, sizing, can all be judged, and fairly, even if you don't like the sound of a system. And in saying that, I've found there is more than just a 'little' correlation between price and getting these things right.

I've heard sub $50,000 system I 'like' better than several $500,000 systems. But, the ability of the higher end system to get all the above components right, obviously makes it a superior system weather I liked it or not.

But this is a slight digression of my original question.

I'd like to get back to the original point. I am much more inclined to want to read a review where all the components seem to fit within a similar price range. Now if you have absolute gems in that price range, things that do/can perform better than much higher priced stuff, than good for you are the reviewer, and good for the reader, because they can afford it.

Ajani
11-05-2010, 06:03 AM
Why read about a Ferrari when you can watch TopGear put it though some absolutely crazy challenge, with good cinematography and music.

LOL... That's actually the only way I'd check out a Ferrari... Top Gear is just about the fun... Reading a review of a Ferrari would be a boring waste of time for me...

Now if only the Top Gear team would review High End Stereos...

atomicAdam
11-05-2010, 06:10 AM
Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...

I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

atomicAdam
11-05-2010, 06:15 AM
Now if only the Top Gear team would review High End Stereos...

I don't really like/care too much/ about cars. But I watch TopGear almost religiously. (that being the type of religion where you go to church when you feel guilty about not going) - anyways - the point being, I've been thinking about this. How to review audio equipment like TopGear reviews cars.

The problem being, cars are so easy to video. They go fast, they make a rumbling noise, and sometimes they do some awesome things.

Tubes glow, some speakers will vibrate, but basically everything sits there. That is pretty boring to watch. It would seem maybe one would have cross Myth Busters/TopGear to find something one could do with audio equipment.

Ajani
11-05-2010, 06:22 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that actually liking the sound of a system has very little to do with the quality of it. This is obvious and I think we'd kind of all agree with this, but....

I think things like staging, resolution, timing, accuracy, dynamics, sizing, can all be judged, and fairly, even if you don't like the sound of a system. And in saying that, I've found there is more than just a 'little' correlation between price and getting these things right.

I've heard sub $50,000 system I 'like' better than several $500,000 systems. But, the ability of the higher end system to get all the above components right, obviously makes it a superior system weather I liked it or not.

Yep, that's the part of the HiFi hobby that I think many persons don't immediately realize... Listening preference is not the same as quality... Also, scoring highly in many categories doesn't mean that the overall sound is enjoyable...

That's why we'll see hobbyists and reviewers raving about an affordable product, that is not the last word in accuracy, detail or dynamics but somehow conveys the musical message (or something like that)...


But this is a slight digression of my original question.

I'd like to get back to the original point. I am much more inclined to want to read a review where all the components seem to fit within a similar price range. Now if you have absolute gems in that price range, things that do/can perform better than much higher priced stuff, than good for you are the reviewer, and good for the reader, because they can afford it.

I think most persons prefer reviews the way you describe there... However, for me, I don't like those type of reviews as much anymore, since I find that a group test of similarly priced items only tells me which one is the pick of the price range... However, it doesn't tell me whether that price range will get me high quality sound, nor whether I could get virtually the same quality for say half the price... Only reviews in absolute terms really tells me where a product really stands...

Even though the implementation leaves a lot to be desired, I think the overall aim of Stereophile's recommended component's list is what I'm looking for... I want to know if a $300 DAC is better than/as good as/inferior to a $3,000 DAC... That way I know how much I really need to spend to get a quality system...

Ajani
11-05-2010, 06:29 AM
I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

Interestingly, I generally just refer to "techno-philes" as audiophiles and "music-philes" as music lovers...

I believe that you can be one or both of them... Some persons love both music and the tech, while others really only love one... The "audiophile" who spends more time thinking about his next tweak/upgrade than listening to music is a tech lover... The one who has delayed upgrading his system for a few years, while amassing a massive collection of albums (that he plays constantly) is a music lover...

I also think that we can be more one than the other at different times in our lives... There are times when all I'm interested in is the music... Then there are times when the upgrade bug bites me really hard...

Ajani
11-05-2010, 06:33 AM
I don't really like/care too much/ about cars. But I watch TopGear almost religiously. (that being the type of religion where you go to church when you feel guilty about not going) - anyways - the point being, I've been thinking about this. How to review audio equipment like TopGear reviews cars.

The problem being, cars are so easy to video. They go fast, they make a rumbling noise, and sometimes they do some awesome things.

Tubes glow, some speakers will vibrate, but basically everything sits there. That is pretty boring to watch. It would seem maybe one would have cross Myth Busters/TopGear to find something one could do with audio equipment.

I think many Top Gear viewers are just like you... My brother and I watch Top Gear for the same reasons, despite neither of us being really into cars...

Another show I used to watch was about video games "X-Play"... I was never a serious gamer but I watched the show regularly cuz it was fun...

If you can somehow figure out a way to make audio reviews fun to read/watch, then you'd find that non-audiophiles will be regular readers/viewers of your work...

Feanor
11-05-2010, 06:49 AM
....
The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.
I'm with you there, Richard.

This is my problem with the Stereophile and TAS: too much extremely expensive stuff and too little in the every-man category. I'm PO'd when I hear a $5000 and even $10k components described as "entry level".

Feanor
11-05-2010, 07:00 AM
Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

Is that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam
It's relative. So sometimes a component at $1000 is so good that it actually needs to be review against $3000 competition and with associated equipment far above what we'd normally expect. Some examples perhaps???

Magneplanar MG 1.6 / 1.7's @ <$2000 driven by $5000 amps.
Class-D-Audio SDS amps at <$700 against $3k amps.On the other hand, as RGA suggests, it's pointless from any perspective to evaluate an $85k component in a system otheriwise totaling, say, $5k.

poppachubby
11-05-2010, 10:22 AM
Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

Ajani
11-05-2010, 10:57 AM
Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics... :smilewinkgrin:

poppachubby
11-05-2010, 11:55 AM
PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics... :smilewinkgrin:

Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!

Ajani
11-05-2010, 12:27 PM
Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!

As ridiculous as that seems, suppose you had a slightly more plausible scenario, like this:

What if you had a budget of $20K for a system, and you found that a $1K Amp and $1K DAC were up to the task of driving $18K speakers... Would you still go for one of the traditional ratios such as equal amounts on Amp, DAC and Speakers... Which would result in you having approx. $7K speakers with $13K of electronics... OR would you get the $18K speakers with $2K of electronics? (Assuming, of course, that the $18K speakers are a real step up from the $7K models)

Another option if you were content with the sound of the $7K speakers is to buy them and the $2K electronics... Thus spending $9K to get the same sound quality you would have achieved, with a traditional spending ratio, at $20K...

poppachubby
11-05-2010, 01:12 PM
Regardless of amounts, I wouldn't approach it with any formula as far as ratio spending is concerned. I would tirelessly begin to research and audition, surely with one or two goals in mind. In the end, who knows how it would be spent, but I can tell you that I would only care about the end result.

Speakers could be a good starting point I suppose. As far as how much to budget, I think this weighs into having an overall goal or two.

Ajani
11-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Regardless of amounts, I wouldn't approach it with any formula as far as ratio spending is concerned. I would tirelessly begin to research and audition, surely with one or two goals in mind. In the end, who knows how it would be spent, but I can tell you that I would only care about the end result.

Speakers could be a good starting point I suppose. As far as how much to budget, I think this weighs into having an overall goal or two.

Which means that in real life you don't necessarily care about similarly priced components... You're looking to achieve a sonic goal... So a review in absolute terms, might serve you better than a review of similar priced gear....

poppachubby
11-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Right, but generally speaking we must equate dollars with quality, sonics, etc. Sure, value isn't everything but I would rather not be left guessing at the end of a review. Synergy is a fickle measurement. So an "out of place" piece worked well for the reviewer, will that be the rule of thumb?

I suppose both ways will produce interesting reviews. It all depends what the reader hopes to take away. I would think more times than not, a reader is trying to guage things for themselves rather than simply be entertained.

So we assume once again that the guy who wants to read a review on a NAD cdp, does not care how it sounds in a super powered system. The law of averages...

E-Stat
11-05-2010, 02:03 PM
Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment? ...Or what about opposite.
Ideally, both. Here is a baseline of what can be done using stellar reference component "A". Here are the aspects in which lesser piece of gear "B" falls short of that reference. And, here is how "B" compares to a similarly priced model "C" having perhaps a slightly different list of compromises as compared with reference "A". Which priorities matter most to you? What would be the cost to elevate the performance to a higher level? That's how I ended up selecting my GamuT CD player years ago. I heard it compared directly to the wonderful Burmester 969/970 combo in an exceptional system. I knew exactly what I was getting - and what I was not.

rw

hifitommy
11-07-2010, 04:52 PM
the first time i saw a budget component (a monitor sized B&W) with a costly one (a big krell amp) was when Bert Whyte did so in AUDIO magazine decades ago. at first i thought it to be foolish but then i realized the speaker was going to be driven to its best capability. no receiver with a wimpy power supply to fall apart on prodigious peaks.

conversely, there are those that say the best SOURCE used will yield the best sound from lesser equipment. vide the linn approach. yes, trying the DUT in a system of its peers is a great idea, so it is with the previous scenarios.

i go and listen to the best systems that are available to me just to see how good it can be just as i have gone to organized bose demos that showed me what is missing. $5k for a cartridge? well, yes. things DO get better up there just as in TTs (walker, rockport, clearaudio). is it necessary in my system...no but when i hear excellence emanating from a $400 cartridge that resembles one at $5k, i look into buying the $400 one.

we need to keep an open mind so we can have the best musical enjoyment we can achieve within our means. if our means increase greatly, we have a good idea which direction to go. also, i guide people with those greater means now and again.

Raj J
11-07-2010, 10:49 PM
Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

good day mate!
the main thing with reviews is to remember that these reviewers get paid! that's their job dam it! they also act as ambassadors to the brand and manufacturers, hence if no good review then no good follow up - means no good business.
as one person already stated, it doesn't really matter what the component is or how much it costs, as long as the reader has a good idea of how it's going to or supposed to sound. believe me, none of the reviews live up to their expectations other than just a handful, because when you acutally visit the dealer and audition off the demo the sound is well... different! this is to do with so many factors; cables, interconnects, AC mains, power cords, line conditioners/equipment placements & speaker positioning, room acoustics etc.

overall, in my opinion regardless of system type or brand - if the system as a whole can deliver close as possible to what is referred to as "the absolute sound" then that's the one you want within your budget of course.

just this last weekend (saturday night) I was at my usual jazz cafe listening to a live jazz trio - electric bass, acoustic guitar, and drums with added percussion. the sound was unbelievable! it was natural, LOUD, and very musical, very powerful, dynamic, lightening fast and full of life and body, and very highy energy, you could feel the power at the same time you start tapping your feet to the tune automatically.

of course no playback highend audio system can equal a live performance. but there are systems that come quite close to what I heard on Saturday night on a very realistic scale.
1. the Wilson Alexandria speakers driven with Audio Research amplification all the way can re-recreate this, including Apogee Divas. The Sonus Faber Stradevari driven with Pass labs are equally good.
2. my vey own Quad ESL 2905's with Conrad Johnson amplification (ACT2 preamp and MV60se power amp) can put out a very impresive show as well.

personally I prefer my Quad system because of the natural tones electrostats are capable of re-producing plus their lightening fast transients, which are very apparent on a live performance.
although the Wilson Alexandria's are a pleasure to lsiten to. I cannot afford them, but they would certainly be an ultimate speaker system to own!

happy listening! and trust YOUR EARS! and not the reviewers...
just keep the reviews as guidelines, and that's about it!
Raj J

LeRoy
11-12-2010, 09:10 PM
Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

Out of necessity to trouble shoot my primary system, I swapped out the Belles Soloist Pre & Amp with my Rega Brio 3. I was quite surprised and delighted to hear my $699 RB3 outperform the Belles rig @ $2K.

Seems like there is no synergy like synergy just kinda happening and not by any deliberate forethought of system design. The RB3, Canton GLE 403, and Stello Signature DAC & Transport just enhance each other and blend so well. The presentation is now more delicate in the high end, more insightful to the body of the music as a whole, tighter bass an more in control, and the Canton's airy-ness is more realized with the RB3.

Who's a thunk a $699/retail integrated would outdo a $2K separates amplification. Not me that's for sure but that's whats happening over here. What makes this weeks discovery so sweet for me is that I only paid $353.xx for the RB3, gently used. I think I'll keep it as my main amp from here and follow the suggestions of RGA and other's who have touted the use of energy efficient speakers with low powered amps...like the RB3 at 49 WPC.

LeRoy

RGA
11-12-2010, 11:43 PM
I am going to go back to the design over price argument for a moment. Loudspeakers have certain inhehrent sounds that you can throw money at all day long and it won't posess the sound of another design. A single driver Teresonic speaker or a King Sound Electrostatic or electrosts and planars may cost a lot less than a giant $80,000 Wilson but many fans of panels and single drivers like the kind of presentation offerred that even if the panel is $5k it will sound better to them than the Maxx3.

Certainly there are preeferences and we may even agree on sonic aspects. I discussed the AN E with a fellow who agreed with me that they were "balanced" speakers but were not state of the art in any single area. He demands that a speaker be state of the art in some given area even if it is truly terrible in some other areas of sound. That makes no sense to me but there you go - it's a preference and you can't fault someone for that.

I discussed the budget issue with Dagogo's own Fred Crowder. Fred is the deepest pocketed reviewer on our staff - and probably most staffs as he owns $192,000 Acapella Triolon speakers, $95,000 Audio Note Kegon Amplifiers etc. Obviously, he has heard a LOT of amplifiers and speakers over the last 30 years of attending virtually every show and auditioning stuff in his home. Like someone mentioned - if I say and $80k amp is the best I have ever heard it means less when my amplifier is $4,000. Even though I have heard a fair number of ultra expensive amplifiers and even though I may have every bit the hearing ability (perhaps better in the frequency range given age etc).

Further there are design preferences. I prefer the sound of Single Ended amplifiers and prefer $2-$5k amps over $15k-$50k high damping factor solid state amplifiers. So in general it is better than I compare $3k SETs to $8k SETs (or tubes) just as it makes sense to heed the words of a die hard panel reviewer over a non panel fan.

Doug Schroeder has owned all sorts of panels over his life and so when he says a King Sound sounds better than a Magnepan, Apogee, Quad, Acoustat, etc (and he actually buys them) then it is more credible in a sense to panel lovers because he has owned and heard most of them and "likes" that sonic presentation. Now I am not typically a fan of them and I also liked the sound of the King Sound panels so in a way that can be viewed as positive or a negative. Why? Because if I didn't like the others all that much then perhaps could think I like the King Sound because they sound more box speaker like which could be a bad thing to the regular panel lovers. Or maybe I am over thinking it. :14:

Nevertheless i don't like putting budgets to things or assuming certain things that something that is much more expensive will be better or more resolving or offering more of a window to the front end gear. While that is certainly true within a company line up it is not necessarily true across companies. A Teresonic does some things at $10k considerably better than many speakers at $50-$100k (they also do things not nearly as good) but resolution or the ability to discern differences in recordings is not a problem for most of the bandwidth.

This is not to say that spending more doesn't get you more but I would also say there are a lot more $15-$20k speakers that I would not remotely trade my $5k speakers in for than $15-20k speakers that I would trade my speakers in for. They are out there though so yes more money will get you better but it's still a design thing IMO not just a retail price issue. A vandersteen for example can sound very good. I heard their $45k beasties and I really liked them - but I would not trade straight up over mine. Big name, big fan base, more bass - just doesn't sound as good IMO. That said it sounds a lot better than all the lower Vandersteen models so a fan of that type of sound will appreciate the big improvements in the house sound as you go up the model line. So they're certainly "worth" the money in the sense that they raise the level for that sonic aesthetic but if you don't love that house sound then it doesn't matter how much they charge or even if it reaches the ultimate level of that house sound.

Just as the panel guy who starts with magnepan on the cheap. When he has money will likely continue with panels and go to Apogee or King Sound or Sound Labs or Quad as a huge upgrade because that is the sonic aesthetic he prefers no matter if there are $25k Legacy Whispers with much more bass and drive etc. Or the horn guys who will go up the line with better drivers, wiring, etc.

Feanor
11-13-2010, 06:28 AM
Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!
This is hyperbole for sure. Certainly there are no fixed ratios for system components but 99% on your speakers is over the top. :p That would be like $10,000 and $100 for the rest -- that scenario doesn't exist.

Feanor
11-13-2010, 06:36 AM
PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics... :smilewinkgrin:
Or more outrageously, instead of the XPA-2, my Class-D-Audio SDS-258.

Compare this ...

http://emotiva.com/xpa2/xpa2.2_1000.jpg

With this ...

http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/CDA_SDS-258_open(2).jpg

Geoffcin
11-13-2010, 07:49 AM
There really is a parabolic arc with gear quality and price. I would say that MOST of what is avaialable out there that rates mid-fi on the audiophile meter will get you 90%-95% there if set up correctly.

That being said, people WANT to know that the gear that they are paying dearly for sounds great to a reviewer too. But there' no way that a person who is going to spend $3k-$5k on a CD player is going to want to see it reviewed playing through the latest HT receiver! No, gear must be rated and reviewed in the class that it fits into.

Got cute $1k mini-monitors you want to review? Prospective buyers of said item aren't going to want a review with a 1000w reference class amp and a 18k CD player. It just doesn't help them. Also they are not going to want to hear a review using a $250 HT receiver either. Think about using a quality intergrated amp and sub 1K CD player and/or TT.

pixelthis
11-14-2010, 09:15 AM
I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

HAVE to disagree, old chap. At least as far as guys are concerned(can't speak for the ladies). Guys tend to be tech heads and love new tech. I always have enjoyed reading
such "stereo porn" as Absolute sound".
I NEVER will be able to afford a pair of Utopia GRANDS, or the latest WILSON effort,
but it is such fun to read about such things, the way they are built and designed.
A man can dream, after all...:1:

YBArcam
11-14-2010, 11:24 AM
Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

I was going to post something similar to this.

We all know about synergy. How much time does a reviewer typically spend on ensuring he has a synergistic system before he begins a review? From the reviews I've read, it often feels like the reviewer gets a pair of speakers and then just plops them into whatever system he has at the time. If the review is a bad one, we don't know if it's due to the speaker not being very good, or just a poor match to the rest of the gear/room. If the review is good then I guess that's another matter, but who knows what happens if I then buy the speaker and place it into my system/room. Perhaps a totally different result altogether. And with the number of positive reviews (most reviews are positive) I have to be a little bit suspicious, because that's a lot of luck trying out all those components and achieving synergy with them, with seemingly very little effort. Perhaps I am wrong though...maybe most gear will work fine with most other gear, assuming no obvious technical mismatches.

My experience so far in this hobby suggests that 90% of all the products out there today are very good to excellent, you just have to make sure the implementation into a room/system is right to unlock this potential.

RGA
11-14-2010, 11:45 AM
I was going to post something similar to this.

We all know about synergy. How much time does a reviewer typically spend on ensuring he has a synergistic system before he begins a review? From the reviews I've read, it often feels like the reviewer gets a pair of speakers and then just plops them into whatever system he has at the time. If the review is a bad one, we don't know if it's due to the speaker not being very good, or just a poor match to the rest of the gear/room. If the review is good then I guess that's another matter, but who knows what happens if I then buy the speaker and place it into my system/room. Perhaps a totally different result altogether. And with the number of positive reviews (most reviews are positive) I have to be a little bit suspicious, because that's a lot of luck trying out all those components and achieving synergy with them, with seemingly very little effort. Perhaps I am wrong though...maybe most gear will work fine with most other gear, assuming no obvious technical mismatches.

My experience so far in this hobby suggests that 90% of all the products out there today are very good to excellent, you just have to make sure the implementation into a room/system is right to unlock this potential.


Well you will get no argument from me I have beating that drum for a long time. Plopping in gear and getting good but not great sound has reviewers giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt that in a different system it would be even better. So everything gets a good review.

What I want to review ideally is system reviews. That is easy with Linn and Audio Note who make systems so there is nowhere to run and hide and make excuses. But it can be done with other makers who don't make the whole chain as welll because there are known matches. Audio Research uses Wilson speakers (or vice versa) when making their gear so reviewing that match means you are reviewing what the manufacturer feels is the best available match.

Now on the other hand - if the amp maker doesn't tell you a preference for speakers or cd players then you can assume they feel it works with every speaker from single driver lowther to 20 driver line array. And if it sounds bad you can certainly not give them any benefit of the doubt. That goes for speaker makers that say 20 watts to 150 watts. Anything that meets that apparently is good enough.

But I think if you keep the general intent in mind - then a "good match" should be had. My amp is a 10 watt SE - I will review speakers that are intended for such tube amplifiers and not 83db 6 driver loudspeakers. If I do wish to review such a speaker then I will use my Rotel Preamp and would likely ask the speaker maker to provide a power amp they feel is up for the job (or a different preamp if they don't like the Rotel).

Ajani
11-14-2010, 03:18 PM
Well you will get no argument from me I have beating that drum for a long time. Plopping in gear and getting good but not great sound has reviewers giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt that in a different system it would be even better. So everything gets a good review.

What I want to review ideally is system reviews. That is easy with Linn and Audio Note who make systems so there is nowhere to run and hide and make excuses. But it can be done with other makers who don't make the whole chain as welll because there are known matches. Audio Research uses Wilson speakers (or vice versa) when making their gear so reviewing that match means you are reviewing what the manufacturer feels is the best available match.

Now on the other hand - if the amp maker doesn't tell you a preference for speakers or cd players then you can assume they feel it works with every speaker from single driver lowther to 20 driver line array. And if it sounds bad you can certainly not give them any benefit of the doubt. That goes for speaker makers that say 20 watts to 150 watts. Anything that meets that apparently is good enough.

But I think if you keep the general intent in mind - then a "good match" should be had. My amp is a 10 watt SE - I will review speakers that are intended for such tube amplifiers and not 83db 6 driver loudspeakers. If I do wish to review such a speaker then I will use my Rotel Preamp and would likely ask the speaker maker to provide a power amp they feel is up for the job (or a different preamp if they don't like the Rotel).

:thumbsup: I agree... Generally when I respond to questions from new (or even old) forum posters asking about what speakers to buy with what amp, my general advice is to go to a dealer and listen to complete setups, then buy the entire setup that you like...

I feel reviews done of whole systems are really useful as I know that apart from room acoustics, that is how the system is intended to sound...

To add to your list: Quad, Rega, Roksan and Emotiva also do full systems... You can probably count Rotel/B&W or Classe/B&W, NAD/PSB, Anthem/Paradigm & Revel/Mark Levinson on the list as they are owned by the same companies and designed to work well together...

RGA
11-14-2010, 07:15 PM
Ajani

And to add a further wrinkle to that - even within the same company one amp may not be as suited to a given speaker as another. I know with AN that not only do they want AN gear throughout it has to be specific models working with other specific models or they feel you're throwing your money away. Granted they make hundreds of pieces of gear. It's a bit eaiser when the company makes three amps and 3 speakers and 2 turntables and 2 cd players to find the right match.

The trouble is with some of the brands you mentioned is that they're not necessarily as good at making certain parts of the chain. Linn is much better at sources than everything else. And then some are not really great at making anything IME so while it may match it doesn't much matter.

A great dealer usually has done a lot of this work - they match stuff up all the time to build such systems. And of course it is still possible to build a good system with a Linn speaker and no other Linn products.

Ajani
11-14-2010, 07:31 PM
Ajani

And to add a further wrinkle to that - even within the same company one amp may not be as suited to a given speaker as another. I know with AN that not only do they want AN gear throughout it has to be specific models working with other specific models or they feel you're throwing your money away. Granted they make hundreds of pieces of gear. It's a bit eaiser when the company makes three amps and 3 speakers and 2 turntables and 2 cd players to find the right match.

The trouble is with some of the brands you mentioned is that they're not necessarily as good at making certain parts of the chain. Linn is much better at sources than everything else. And then some are not really great at making anything IME so while it may match it doesn't much matter.

A great dealer usually has done a lot of this work - they match stuff up all the time to build such systems. And of course it is still possible to build a good system with a Linn speaker and no other Linn products.

Yep, there is always the danger that some parts are the weak link in the chain.... But then hopefully you can find at least one dealer with a carefully crafted system that sounds good to you... Unless you have the time and money to spend constantly trading gear on Audiogon, then I think auditioning whole systems makes a lot of sense...

poppachubby
11-14-2010, 07:54 PM
You guys are right.

NAD systems, IMO suck...but they do make a few individual pieces that are ok. Arcam and Creek on the other hand, are wicked awesome for full systems.

I have done alot of listening on my local dealer's Arcam demo system, it's the one which I will hook up a source when I want to listen. Back to the topic...they also have full Simaudio systems which I have listened to as well. I like the Arcam because let's face it, my own system is closer to it than a Moon. I will say that a full Simaudio system through Audio Physics is stupid good.

Ajani
11-14-2010, 08:07 PM
You guys are right.

NAD systems, IMO suck...but they do make a few individual pieces that are ok. Arcam and Creek on the other hand, are wicked awesome for full systems.

I have done alot of listening on my local dealer's Arcam demo system, it's the one which I will hook up a source when I want to listen. Back to the topic...they also have full Simaudio systems which I have listened to as well. I like the Arcam because let's face it, my own system is closer to it than a Moon. I will say that a full Simaudio system through Audio Physics is stupid good.

LOL... My thoughts exactly... My first real HiFi system consisted of a NAD Int and CDP... Which I really hated... NAD/PSB are designed to be used together and many persons love the combo... My experiences with that combo always left me with just one word in mind: BORING... But for those who like the sound, it is a good option...