my "stuff"

[pixelthis]

Everybody that has been cussin my "mass market crap" as talky calls it, well, heres what
you've been cussin.:1:

[pixelthis]

About to rewire it, was going with a BELLO STAND , but a pressure plate on the cars tranny
outranks that.
HERES a montage, the gold player sideways on the right is my eight year old PANNY
DVD-AUDIO player with 192 khz dacs, also has something called remaster, which doubles the sampling rate for CD, THE SOUND IS REALLY AMAZING.:1:

[pixelthis]

heres the wallpaper on my computer, sorry for the flash.:1:

[pixelthis]

And heres a montage of various screen captures of the latesr STARTREK, about as
good as screen captures get.:1:

[pixelthis]

And last but not least, my Emotiva AMP, love this cool running amp, don't know what class
off hand, but the sound is delicious.:1:

[pixelthis]

Did'nt show my speakers close, most know about them. Will say that the 602s2 is one of the best speakers ever when price is considered.
525$ a pair, 350 for the center, kevlar cones, Nautilus tweeters.
Eight years old, going strong
I use a pair of 305 floorstanders that used to be my mains for surround duty, 400 bucks a pair on closeout. A waste to use these for surrounds, hope the use them for an audio only system soon.HAS plastic fins lining the inside of the cabinet, keeps down standing waves. All I NEED IS A PREAMP, but in the Obamanation times are tight.:1:

[pixelthis]

HERES THE DRIVERS for my 305's, amazing what B&W did with such basic drivers.:1:

[pixelthis]

OOPS, heres the pic.:1:

[pixelthis]

HERES my five hundred buck Lovan rack I bought( as usual) at closeout for half price.
Hope to make it part of an audio only system someday, but right now it mainly is a junk collector. The Sony changer holds most of my "main" CD's. I am about to move the 700 dollar
panny to the main rack next door. Notice my B&W 602s2, still lookin good after 8-9 years.:1:

[pixelthis]

Heres my PANNY DVD-AUDIO player, probably the best sounding component I have.
Even though all of my music is on the computer, its still worth the trouble to load CD's
into this thing, although the video is good for the times, its not up todays, sadly.:1:

[pixelthis]

So the next time some smart *** wants to see "my stuff", I will have a link for you.
NOT THE BEST by a long shot, but considering the demands of life, women, children,
and the taxman, its about as good as a workingman could do. COULD HAVE BOUGHT
nicer stuff, but I tend to get something as soon as I can, not too good at saving up for
things.:1:

[TheHills44060]

I really like the B&W's, the stand and the tv but i'd ditch the emotiva amp, bleh.

[Hyfi]

I really like the Comcast Cable Box.

Ya shoulda just added this to the Updated Listening Space thread but good pics anyway. Although they sounded great, I never liked the B&Ws with the cyclops eye tweeters sticking out the top. These are much cleaner.

[poppachubby]

Looks great, thanks for sharing pix!! I love the third screenshot of the Enterprise, looks really nice. The Emotiva stuff is always on my ind when thinking of H/T. I would love to get their 5 channel amp combined with a great player, I bet that would sound excellent.

I notice you have corner placement for the speakers. Is that maunfacturer suggested, or a space necessity?

My only concern is for your TT so close to the speakers with no isolation assistance. Surely this is problematic, even if not fully audible. I would suggest a wall shelf or perhaps another location in the room, away from the speakers.

Great stuff!! I wouldn't sweat anyone provoking you about "proving" anything. There are several members here who don't post pics, and that's fine. I do love seeing pictures though (JoeESP9).

Enjoy your system pix and consider a tubed pre amp to mix it up a bit.

[Worf101]

I don't hate on anyone's gear. You buy what you like and what you can afford. My first few systems sucked so I pass no judgement on anyone's gear. I like some of your speaks and anyone that love Frank Frazetta get's a nod in my book.

Worf

[Ajani]

And last but not least, my Emotiva AMP, love this cool running amp, don't know what class
off hand, but the sound is delicious.:1:

The Emotiva UPA-2 is class AB...

[Ajani]

I don't hate on anyone's gear. You buy what you like and what you can afford. My first few systems sucked so I pass no judgement on anyone's gear. I like some of your speaks and anyone that love Frank Frazetta get's a nod in my book.

Worf

I'll second that...

Buy what you like... Who cares whether other forum members have (or claim to have) more expensive gear than you? We've all got different obligations and priorities...

[Ajani]

I really like the B&W's, the stand and the tv but i'd ditch the emotiva amp, bleh.

And replace it with?

[GMichael]

Nice stuff. Hope you find it enjoyable.

[pixelthis]

I really like the B&W's, the stand and the tv but i'd ditch the emotiva amp, bleh.

I used to think that, but at 250 bucks, whats the harm to try?
And they made a beleiver outta me, with a toroidal transformer as big as a cats head.
AND MY RECEIVER doesnt strain as much at high vollume levels , since it only has three channels to drive. SO two channel sound is exelent, and HT is better also.:1:

[pixelthis]

Looks great, thanks for sharing pix!! I love the third screenshot of the Enterprise, looks really nice. The Emotiva stuff is always on my ind when thinking of H/T. I would love to get their 5 channel amp combined with a great player, I bet that would sound excellent.

I notice you have corner placement for the speakers. Is that maunfacturer suggested, or a space necessity?

My only concern is for your TT so close to the speakers with no isolation assistance. Surely this is problematic, even if not fully audible. I would suggest a wall shelf or perhaps another location in the room, away from the speakers.

Great stuff!! I wouldn't sweat anyone provoking you about "proving" anything. There are several members here who don't post pics, and that's fine. I do love seeing pictures though (JoeESP9).

Enjoy your system pix and consider a tubed pre amp to mix it up a bit.
They are actually father away from the walls than the pic implies. THE TT isn't a factor,
since neither the center or the sub are in play when its in use. ITS not hooked up right now,
thinking about putting it on the LOVAN rack, with its superb isolation.
I AM FINALLY posting pics because of the systems posted here had a lot of good ideas.
A lot don't think much about the pole option for flat screen, but if you don't want to cut the wall, its a cheap option, so I thought I WOULD "POST" AN EXAMPLE.
And dont get me started on "tube" amps, don't need the harmonic distortion, and the design has been obsolete since Bell labs came out with the first transistor(or stole it from ET!):1:

[pixelthis]

Nice stuff. Hope you find it enjoyable.

Thanks, thats really whats important. A LOT think you can spend your way to audio nirvana,
and I GUESS you can. But it takes planning to get a decent sounding system cheap.
I live on the edge of the law of diminishing returns, I get the 96% you can get, without spending thousands on the last three percent.
THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is paying for quality, that is really cheaper in the long run.
INTEGRA (Onkyo), PANASONC, B&W, they all make inexpensive stuff that lasts a long time.:1:

[pixelthis]

The Emotiva UPA-2 is class AB...
Thanks. More efficient(and cheaper) than pure class A.
Once again I SPENT MY FAIR SHARE of time panning this brand, couldnt have been more wrong. GREAT WARRANTY , price, specials, true audiophile quality kit for cheap.
IS IT AS GOOD as a megabuck amp? If its not its not off by much. I see now why there are so many EMOTIVA FANBOYS OUT THERE.:1:

[pixelthis]

I don't hate on anyone's gear. You buy what you like and what you can afford. My first few systems sucked so I pass no judgement on anyone's gear. I like some of your speaks and anyone that love Frank Frazetta get's a nod in my book.

Worf

frankfrazetta.org, has a full library of his stuff, makes great wallpaper.:1:

[pixelthis]

I really like the Comcast Cable Box.

Ya shoulda just added this to the Updated Listening Space thread but good pics anyway. Although they sounded great, I never liked the B&Ws with the cyclops eye tweeters sticking out the top. These are much cleaner.

Didn't know about that, thanks. The cable box is a love hate deal, COMCAST IS GOING THROUGH something called "the digital migration". Even tho the box holds an amazing amount of media(all three Rings movies, most DARK blue, a ton of concerts) glitches
and price have me looking at UVERSE, 87 bucks a month for six months, and you get the pay channels, locals 230 HD channels in all, amazing compared to COMCAST, although
when Comcast is working, its working great

[Hyfi]

Didn't know about that, thanks. The cable box is a love hate deal, COMCAST IS GOING THROUGH something called "the digital migration". Even tho the box holds an amazing amount of media(all three Rings movies, most DARK blue, a ton of concerts) glitches
and price have me looking at UVERSE, 87 bucks a month for six months, and you get the pay channels, locals 230 HD channels in all, amazing compared to COMCAST, although
when Comcast is working, its working great

Of course you know I was being sarcastic with the comcast comment.

At one tome, most B&Ws had the tweeter sticking out the top like these

http://www.highfidelity.pl/!ev/artykuly/13_06_2007/reportaz/0105.jpg

[thekid]

I don't hate on anyone's gear. You buy what you like and what you can afford. Worf

Amen!
I am glad to see this site has seemed to have lost the people who were constantly elevating their systems by putting down the systems of others. Listen and let listen.

Nice set-up Pix and thanks for sharing!

[E-Stat]

And dont get me started on "tube" amps, don't need the harmonic distortion...
First of all, Poppachubby suggested a tube preamp. Look at any number of Stereophile distortion plots to figure out that the THD of line stages rarely exceeds 0.5%. Which corresponds to -46 db. Lets see if that is within your perceptual capabilities to discern. All you need do is take this (http://http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/lt/default.html) test and see how well you fare. Admittedly, I could do no better than -36 db (1.5%). Post an image of the automatically generated test results when you finish. It will look like this:

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/dist.jpg

rw

[pixelthis]

Of course you know I was being sarcastic with the comcast comment.

At one tome, most B&Ws had the tweeter sticking out the top like these

http://www.highfidelity.pl/!ev/artykuly/13_06_2007/reportaz/0105.jpg

Of course, but it gave me a chance to run my mouth about the screwiness of
COMCAST of late. Maybe things will straighten out when they finish this "digital conversion" of theirs.
And not most B&W's, just the higher line ones. AND TRUST ME, they are worth it.:1:

[pixelthis]

First of all, Poppachubby suggested a tube preamp. Look at any number of Stereophile distortion plots to figure out that the THD of line stages rarely exceeds 0.5%. Which corresponds to -46 db. Lets see if that is within your perceptual capabilities to discern. All you need do is take this (http://http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/lt/default.html) test and see how well you fare. Admittedly, I could do no better than -36 db (1.5%). Post an image of the automatically generated test results when you finish. It will look like this:

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/dist.jpg

rw

Preamp or amp, doesnt make any difference, tubes are obsolete. THEY PRODUCE A LOT OF HEAT, you need a heater circuit for the emitters, which lead to all kinds of problems,
and the distortion specs(as you display) are pathetic next to even a cheap solid state amp.
LIKE THAT "TUBE" SOUND? Fine. I LIVE IN THE 21ST CENTURY.
Dont ride horses, dont take baths in a tub on the porch. AND DON'T listen to a device
(mostly S.E.T) that was obsolete decades ago.
BESIDES turntables, tubes are the silliest fad so called "audiophiles" have chosen to
embrace, and one of the hardest to explain to lay people. KEEP ONE IF YOU MUST,
but leave me out of it, please.:1:

[pixelthis]

Amen!
I am glad to see this site has seemed to have lost the people who were constantly elevating their systems by putting down the systems of others. Listen and let listen.

Nice set-up Pix and thanks for sharing!

THANKS!

[E-Stat]

...and the distortion specs(as you display) are pathetic next to even a cheap solid state amp.
LIKE THAT "TUBE" SOUND? Fine. I LIVE IN THE 21ST CENTURY.
Why is 0.5% "pathetic" if you cannot hear it? You'll find some excellent sounding SS amps (Pass Labs, Lamm, etc.) that value quality over specmanship with similarly "pathetic" results. Take the online test and let us know if you powers of discernment are capable of identifying "pathetic". Best of luck to you!

rw

[pixelthis]

Why is 0.5% "pathetic" if you cannot hear it? You'll find some excellent sounding SS amps (Pass Labs, Lamm, etc.) that value quality over specmanship with similarly "pathetic" results. Take the online test and let us know if you powers of discernment are capable of identifying "pathetic". Best of luck to you!

rw

If you can't discern half a percent of distortion(.5%) save some money, give up this hobby and get a Bose wave radio. Really.
I recently read a review of a cheap (400$) plastic Sony receiver, rated at 100 wpc.
It didn't meet that, came out with 69 wpc, with .1% distortion.
In other words this cheap P.O.S , closest thing to a HTIB, beat out some of the most expensive tube amps on the planet .
Of course distortion is what its all about with tube amps, thats where that "tube" sound comes from. MOST SOLID STATE amps can produce distortion specs in the .05 range.
DON'T GET me wrong, if you like tube amps, go right ahead, put up with the attendant
headaches. I PREFER SOMETHING better, and solid state runs circles around tubes.
THE ONLY THING to consider is the specs, I WILL LEAVE tube owners with their imaginations.:1:

[E-Stat]

If you can't discern half a percent of distortion(.5%) save some money, give up this hobby and get a Bose wave radio. Really.
For the third time, demonstrate your great powers! Go back to the link, take the test and post your results. Should be a piece of cake for one such as you. Best of luck to you! :)

rw

[Hyfi]

If you can't discern half a percent of distortion(.5%) save some money, give up this hobby and get a Bose wave radio. Really.
I recently read a review of a cheap (400$) plastic Sony receiver, rated at 100 wpc.
It didn't meet that, came out with 69 wpc, with .1% distortion.
In other words this cheap P.O.S , closest thing to a HTIB, beat out some of the most expensive tube amps on the planet .
Of course distortion is what its all about with tube amps, thats where that "tube" sound comes from. MOST SOLID STATE amps can produce distortion specs in the .05 range.
DON'T GET me wrong, if you like tube amps, go right ahead, put up with the attendant
headaches. I PREFER SOMETHING better, and solid state runs circles around tubes.
THE ONLY THING to consider is the specs, I WILL LEAVE tube owners with their imaginations.:1:

Your way off here. What tube equipment have you owned in order to make all these statements?



I have grown up around both SS, Tubes, and recently Hybrid. I can assure you that my $600 investment into a $6500 pre amp and $4500 hybrid amp along with speakers and cables will blow most receivers and straight ss gear away.

I have a Stratos that was labeled a Giant Killer for it's $1000 price tag when I got it. It does kick ass and throws no heat at all. But, it pales in comparison to a 15 y/o Counterpoint Hybrid amp that has rectifiers, tubes and SS output. My VAC all tube pre blows the doors off almost any SS preamp.

For you to compare my system to an HTIB means that you have a very active imagination and need a huge reality check. I really wish you lived close enough to have you hear it and then have you shut up about things you don't know.

There is nothing imagined here at all. I can swap my system to be all SS or Hybrid amped in seconds and hear a huge difference. I can flip from passive to gain on my pre and have great detail with or without gain.

What Tube gear have you owned that did not compare to your Emotiva amp?
What tube pre have you owned that was not better than your Onkyo Preamp?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ya see....he was gettin all this love and then had to go off and ruin it. Can't take him anywhere.......

[audio amateur]

For the third time, demonstrate your great powers! Go back to the link, take the test and post your results. Should be a piece of cake for one such as you. Best of luck to you! :)

What a cool response. I applaud you!

[E-Stat]

What a cool response.
Back in '74 when I was a bit younger than you, I was in Pixie's camp about specs (but didn't share his militant ignorance against learning better). After all, that's what Julian Hirsch taught us. The lower the number is always better. Based upon that notion at the time (and cool pro aesthetics), I bought a Crown D-150 amp to drive my double Advents. Talk about great measured performance! Look here. (http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/D150-spec-sheet.pdf) Wow! THD and IMD at 0.05% and typically far lower. Just look at the graphs. It doesn't get any better than that, right? Why then did it sound like sandpaper on a chalkboard at the top? Closed in and hard sounding on everything? There are many reasons, but two stand out: static measurements don't tell the dynamic story and our auditory perceptions have "blind spots" when it comes to the nature of distortion.

I was very fortunate in that the dealer who sold me the amp also sold Audio Research which is where I got my first taste of just how good an audio system could sound. I will never forget first hearing Magneplanar Tympani IIIs tri-amplified using all ARC gear. I had never before heard anything that sounded so real. By contrast, I had heard AR-LSTs driven by a Phase Linear 700 amp and thought "this is what everyone thinks is so wonderful?" Even the AR dealer called them "toads". The next pivotal moment was six years later when I heard the Infinity IRS system driven by a Conrad-Johnson Premier One amp at Sea Cliff. It was the first system I heard that possessed the elusive quality of "authority" - an utter ease of reproduction and naturalness. Which is not simply lots of power and loud. While rock concerts are deafeningly loud with kilowatts of power behind them, they do not possess that quality.

Anyway, we cannot hear what some guys think is "pathetic" amounts of distortion when the spectra is tame. All that is required for anyone to understand this is to take that online ABX test. I encourage everyone who possesses intellectual honesty to do so. It was only on the harmonics of her guitar that I was able to consistently judge 1.5% distortion. It is not an absolute test of cutting edge resolution as better recordings can be more revealing and I am not a great fan of Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. But it is an eye, um ear-opening point of reference. :)

rw

[pixelthis]

Your way off here. What tube equipment have you owned in order to make all these statements?
I KNOW FROM the start that tube gear is inferior, so why buy any?
I NEVER bought a French automobile either.



I have grown up around both SS, Tubes, and recently Hybrid. I can assure you that my $600 investment into a $6500 pre amp and $4500 hybrid amp along with speakers and cables will blow most receivers and straight ss gear away.


Actually, no. Its impossible for tube gear to outperform solid state, for the same reason a piston airplane will never outperform a jet, solid state is inherently Superior.


I have a Stratos that was labeled a Giant Killer for it's $1000 price tag when I got it. It does kick ass and throws no heat at all. But, it pales in comparison to a 15 y/o Counterpoint Hybrid amp that has rectifiers, tubes and SS output. My VAC all tube pre blows the doors off almost any SS preamp.


Impossible because of inherent limitations in tube amps, you will never get distortion down
to near .1%, and if you did that would destroy the "tube" sound, which is mostly distortion.



For you to compare my system to an HTIB means that you have a very active imagination and need a huge reality check. I really wish you lived close enough to have you hear it and then have you shut up about things you don't know.


I have not "compared" it to a HTIB, I have said it was inferiour to any HTIB out there.
A fifty thousand dollar sleigh driven by the best horses still won't beat a 12 year old
CAVALIER with a cracked block. The truth.
I worked on various types of tube gear back in the seventies, none of the guys in class
wanted a "tube" anything. What they wanted was the latest F.E.T solid state amp.
THE LATEST sansui or PIONEER RECEIVER.
used to work on old tube gear, none of it ever measured up.
"Modern" tube gear is refined a great deal, but no matter how "refined" a surf board, you still have to swim out with it, inherent limitation in the design.



There is nothing imagined here at all. I can swap my system to be all SS or Hybrid amped in seconds and hear a huge difference. I can flip from passive to gain on my pre and have great detail with or without gain.


WELL, good for you! I dont even have to touch my EMOTIVA (12 volt trigger) and it will put out sound with .05% DISTORTION OR LESS, a tube amp will never even be close.




What Tube gear have you owned that did not compare to your Emotiva amp?
What tube pre have you owned that was not better than your Onkyo Preamp?
YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.
Why would I own any tube gear? ITS all obsolete, has been for decades.
Dont have a washing machine on the back porch with a ringer, a black and white TV,
OR AN EIGHT TRACK TAPE PLAYER.

Heres what gets me about "tube" fans. Their gear is outperformed by even the cheapest
of solid state gear, but they expect a pass on the specs, they expect their imagination
to count in real world comparison.
MODEL T fans fix up their old cars, drive them in parades, show them off. BUT NONE
are so delusional as to suggest that their antiques are even close to a modern auto.
I could have some respect for the cravings of nostalgia tube fans have for their gear,
the fun they have taking care of their flaky equipment, but then they have to go ruin it
bu saying their over the hill gear is actually superiour to a modern piece of kit!
WHICH IS LIKE saying that a box kite is better than a 747. Silly, really.
You have heater circuits in tube gear, which heat the emitters that power tubes.
This produces a great deal of heat, and the hotter a piece of electronics, the more unstable.
AND ROOM TEMP WILL DETERMINE just how the set performs. The tubes will operate
differently based on their age and several other factors. They will eventually wear out
like a lightbulb, which they basically are.
And any stray electromag interference will affect how they operate, even a minute amount.
WANT to spend thousands on gear that was obsolete the day BELL LABS invented the transistor? Fine. But don't expect me to be an enabler in your delusion.
IF THE KID had not said he was naked, the Emperor would still be walking around without any clothes.
ANYTHING WITH A TUBE is obsolete, and will never spec out better than even cheap solid state, tube gear is a triumph of marketing over reason.
DOES TUBE GEAR SOUND GOOD? Sure. So does a wave radio. HOW ACCURATE IS EITHER ONE?
Not very. And please don't get mad at me for simply stating what any first year
wet behind the ears electronics tech will be more than happy to tell you.
Reality is unpleasant sometimes, but it won't go away for anybody.:1:

[dean_martin]

Did'nt show my speakers close, most know about them. Will say that the 602s2 is one of the best speakers ever when price is considered.
525$ a pair, 350 for the center, kevlar cones, Nautilus tweeters.
Eight years old, going strong
I use a pair of 305 floorstanders that used to be my mains for surround duty, 400 bucks a pair on closeout. A waste to use these for surrounds, hope the use them for an audio only system soon.HAS plastic fins lining the inside of the cabinet, keeps down standing waves. All I NEED IS A PREAMP, but in the Obamanation times are tight.:1:

This is where the vacuum cleaner goes. J/k. I always put off cleaning/dusting behind my equipment once I have it set up because I don't want to move it - might throw off soundstage or something obsessive like that.

Anyhow, I've always been impressed with the 602s I've auditioned. They seem like a very solid choice at the price point and are relatively easy to find and audition. Don't know why I don't have a pair (of 602s) yet.

[eisforelectronic]

DOES TUBE GEAR SOUND GOOD? Sure. So does a wave radio.


What?!? Wave radio?

[Geoffcin]

Enough drifting off topic. Want to debate Tube vs SS? Open another thread.

[Hyfi]

Anyhow, I've always been impressed with the 602s I've auditioned. They seem like a very solid choice at the price point and are relatively easy to find and audition. Don't know why I don't have a pair (of 602s) yet.

The thing is, pixie doesnt even know how good his B&Ws could sound.

I used to think my stratos was the sh!t, but I actually listen to music and not measurements and distortion.

The Emotiva, 125 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (0.1% THD), doesn't even measure up to my 20 year old Hafler 9180 which specs in at less than 0.025%, typically 0.005% at 1 kHz or my 15 year old Stratos at <0.04% THD (not audible) as per Klause. Neither of those 2 amps ever sounded as good before the VAC. And pale to the hybrid counterpoint whose who's tubes really mess the sound up.

Pixie talks the talk, but own nothing that fits his own theory.

[Hyfi]

The thing is, pixie doesnt even know how good his B&Ws could sound.

I used to think my stratos was the sh!t, but I actually listen to music and not measurements and distortion.

The Emotiva, 125 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (0.1% THD), doesn't even measure up to my 20 year old Hafler 9180 which specs in at less than 0.025%, typically 0.005% at 1 kHz or my 15 year old Stratos at <0.04% THD (not audible) as per Klause. Neither of those 2 amps ever sounded as good before the VAC. And pale to the hybrid counterpoint whose who's tubes really mess the sound up.

Pixie talks the talk, but own nothing that fits his own theory.
Heck, even the used Rotel RX-1050 has better specs than the Emotiva

Total Harmonic Distortion
<0.05% at rated power
Intermodulation Distortion (60 Hz:7 kHz)
<0.05% at rated power

[Geoffcin]

These ratings your stating are taken at maximum output. Most listening is done at far less output. My tube amp was tested by my tech at 15w output and at that level it produced <.05% THD. That's about 90dB with my speakers, and about the highest I like to listen at most-of-the-time.

[Hyfi]

These ratings your stating are taken at maximum output. Most listening is done at far less output. My tube amp was tested by my tech at 15w output and at that level it produced <.05% THD. That's about 90dB with my speakers, and about the highest I like to listen at most-of-the-time.

I know that, you know that and everyone else but ONE knows that.

And if ONE never even listened to tube gear to compare it to SS, that ONE should remain quiet.

[Geoffcin]

Well, some of what he says is true. Tube gear is more fragile than SS, it wears out quicker, and is also subject to a wider range of quality issues compared to SS. And of course it usually costs more per watt, although not always. I think where the problem lies is that Pix likes to throw grenades when he posts. I would take some of what he posts with a grain of salt, as sometimes he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

[Hyfi]

Well, some of what he says is true. Tube gear is more fragile than SS, it wears out quicker, and is also subject to a wider range of quality issues compared to SS. And of course it usually costs more per watt, although not always. I think where the problem lies is that Pix likes to throw grenades when he posts. I would take some of what he posts with a grain of salt, as sometimes he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

I know what your saying. But, when someone who never owned or LISTENED to tube gear (only read specs which do NOT tell you how it sounds) to say they sound worse than a wave or HTIB, it's not just a grain of salt, it's a pile of ignorance.

I know he doesn't care, but the little respect he gained by revealing his gear went right out the window with his comments.

I'm done debating with a one sided, no experience spec reader who has no clue how good his own speakers could sound. My Counterpoint would really make them sing! The Emotiva is just a reasonably priced budget amp just like the old Audio Source amps were but nothing to brag about or compare the sound to real performers, not even a Stratos, Hafler, or Rotel SS amp.

[E-Stat]

I think where the problem lies...
The underlying problem is deeper than tubes vs SS or his penchant for grenades and weird images. If he were to take the online test I referenced, he would be confronted with the reality of the (in)audibility of *pathetic* levels of simple harmonic distortion. Such would be unacceptable. His lack of intellectual honesty prevents him from accepting a truth which conflicts with his dogma.

rw

[Geoffcin]

Yes, but there's enough dogma crap going around in audio that his little non-acceptance of a THD reality check is just a blip. I mean next thing you know we're going to be getting into the cable a/bx thing and we'll all be up to our ears in dogma doodo. In this case it's best to leave a sleeping dogma lie.

[Ajani]

I know what your saying. But, when someone who never owned or LISTENED to tube gear (only read specs which do NOT tell you how it sounds) to say they sound worse than a wave or HTIB, it's not just a grain of salt, it's a pile of ignorance.

I know he doesn't care, but the little respect he gained by revealing his gear went right out the window with his comments.

I'm done debating with a one sided, no experience spec reader who has no clue how good his own speakers could sound. My Counterpoint would really make them sing! The Emotiva is just a reasonably priced budget amp just like the old Audio Source amps were but nothing to brag about or compare the sound to real performers, not even a Stratos, Hafler, or Rotel SS amp.

I get your basic point and agree, but I need to make one clarification:

A large number of Emotiva owners also have/had Rotel amps and find the Emotiva to be equal or slightly better than Rotel/other midfi gear... So the Emotiva/B&W combo Pix has probably sounds quite good (for the price)...

However, I agree that it would be great for him to actually try some tubes/more expensive SS instead of just tossing around theory grenades...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

However, I agree that it would be great for him to actually try some tubes/more expensive SS instead of just tossing around theory grenades...

It is not going to happen. I have been asking him to refrain from commenting on 3D for months now because he has ZERO experience with current 3D. It is not in his DNA to try something first, then comment. He operates solely off of his outdated education, and gut feeling.

[GMichael]

Shoot from the hip Pixy.
It's ok, as long as we all know that's what's going on.

[pixelthis]

Well, some of what he says is true. Tube gear is more fragile than SS, it wears out quicker, and is also subject to a wider range of quality issues compared to SS. And of course it usually costs more per watt, although not always. I think where the problem lies is that Pix likes to throw grenades when he posts. I would take some of what he posts with a grain of salt, as sometimes he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

THATS always a problem, state facts and you're a troll all of a sudden.
Sorry, but I HAVE NEVER suffered a fool his delusions. People who love antique tube gear,
magical power cords with sound improving qualities that defy physics, record players,
audio cables that cost a months pay for a one meter pair, well, they can use and even advocate such money wasting silliness all day if they want, I HOPE THEY ENJOY THE
placebo effect they are laboring under, and which marketing scumbags love.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME I am entitled to my opinion also. AND I have facts and reason,
let someone thinking about wasting money on such faerie dust have both arguments to consider is all I AM SAYING.:1:

[pixelthis]

The underlying problem is deeper than tubes vs SS or his penchant for grenades and weird images. If he were to take the online test I referenced, he would be confronted with the reality of the (in)audibility of *pathetic* levels of simple harmonic distortion. Such would be unacceptable. His lack of intellectual honesty prevents him from accepting a truth which conflicts with his dogma.

rw

so scientific FACT is now considered "dogma"?
WHAT GALL!!! And "intellectual" honesty"? BECAUSE I won't take part in some lame
biased "test" whose only purpose is to support the delusional attitudes of those who devised it, some of who probably work for the marketing depts of some tube makers?
WHY SHOULD I waste my time with this nonsense? If tubes are so superiour then why
are they not used in hardly any gear except "high end" audio designed to stoke the egos
of the owners, who get to brag about how "special" their gear is, and feed their neurosis.
IF TUBES are so superior in comparison to solid state, then why does solid state outnumber tube gear by a few million to one?
I will never take your "test" BTW, just like I WONT TAKE a "test" where a horse is "proved" Superior to a car because the car is a chevy Impala with a lawnmower
engine. Solid state outperforms tubes in every categeory, especial the all important
one, audio quality. I HAVE NEVER HEARD A SIGNLE TUBE SET that sounds better
than a cheap Pioneer amp, which was proved a few years ago, btw, in a double blind test,
where a 400 buck Pioneer plastic receiver beat amps costing up to 150,000$.:1:

[dean_martin]

You don't like your "technics antique direct drive TT"?

[pixelthis]

I get your basic point and agree, but I need to make one clarification:

A large number of Emotiva owners also have/had Rotel amps and find the Emotiva to be equal or slightly better than Rotel/other midfi gear... So the Emotiva/B&W combo Pix has probably sounds quite good (for the price)...

However, I agree that it would be great for him to actually try some tubes/more expensive SS instead of just tossing around theory grenades...

Some more "expensive" solid state gear might be nice, but won't necessarily improve things
just because it cost more.
I bought the EMOTIVA because I was leery of them, and they had a sale, and 250 bucks
is kind of hard to pass up for an amp with such specs. Turns out they made believers
outta me. I have always been one of those who think amps, outside of a few quality
areas, are pretty much generic. The Emotiva pushes the electrons down the pipe
with consistent quality and effort. THEY HAVE converted me from critic to loyal customer,
in other words.
And I WILL NEVER own tube gear. OR A HORSE AND CARRIAGE.
Or a gramophone, or a b&w 13" tv. OR SPATS. Or a top hat. Tubes distort sound,
its their nature, its a fundamental feature of their construction, and if you could get rid
of the distortion, they would sound like solid state. So why?:1:

[pixelthis]

You don't like your "technics antique direct drive TT"?

I like the small library of records I have, and my TECHNICS does the job of playing them quite well. Vinly fans(like a certain MICHEAL FREMMER) are even more delusional than tube freaks, and are quite often one and the same .
IN Absolute Sound a few years back they interviewed a famous audio engineer, a guy
who has done several famous titles, and the interviewer asked him flat out which was best,
CD or vinly, and he said that CD was better , and stated a long list of reasons why.
Which went in and out of the heads of just about all vinyl fans, or course .:1:

[pixelthis]

It is not going to happen. I have been asking him to refrain from commenting on 3D for months now because he has ZERO experience with current 3D. It is not in his DNA to try something first, then comment. He operates solely off of his outdated education, and gut feeling.

Gut feeling has nothing to do with it, except hating your guts, maybe:D

3D tech is nothing new under the sun, from the latest mag with Anna Kornikova in
3D to Avatar. All 3D SYSTEMS operate under the same basic principles.
Sorry if that goes against the statements of whatever propaganda (opps, marketing)
dept you work under, but maybe someday reality of a sort will force its way into that
cranium of yours.
BUT PROBABLY NOT.:1:

[pixelthis]

Shoot from the hip Pixy.
It's ok, as long as we all know that's what's going on.

With all of the training I received as a Police, the hip is the last place I WILL SHOOT FROM, and I always hit my target.:1:

[pixelthis]

I get your basic point and agree, but I need to make one clarification:

A large number of Emotiva owners also have/had Rotel amps and find the Emotiva to be equal or slightly better than Rotel/other midfi gear... So the Emotiva/B&W combo Pix has probably sounds quite good (for the price)...

However, I agree that it would be great for him to actually try some tubes/more expensive SS instead of just tossing around theory grenades...

What "theory"? THEORY is a non-proven statement, the proof that tubes are worse than solid state would fill an office building.
THATS WHY tube advocates hate double blind tests. Because their precious "tube" gear
never passes, the most intense tube lover, under a double blind test, has usually picked the solid state unit as best sounding, much to their embarrassment .
They deny this of course. THEIR RELIGION, like most, defy logic.:1:

[dean_martin]

I like the small library of records I have, and my TECHNICS does the job of playing them quite well. Vinly fans(like a certain MICHEAL FREMMER) are even more delusional than tube freaks, and are quite often one and the same .
IN Absolute Sound a few years back they interviewed a famous audio engineer, a guy
who has done several famous titles, and the interviewer asked him flat out which was best,
CD or vinly, and he said that CD was better , and stated a long list of reasons why.
Which went in and out of the heads of just about all vinyl fans, or course .:1:

I won't try to defend Fremmer. He gets paid to defend himself. I just wish I had access to some of the gear he reviews.

For a long time cds and cd players sounded like crap. It took a lot of money to put together a digital front end that competed with a quality table/arm/cart setup. And, there's no help for some of my earliest cds other than to replace them with remasters if available. Heck, some of my newer pop cds are spitty on top with limited bass extension - probably recorded for car cdps. OTOH, I have some cds that engulf me with sound. There's a little more to it than one format versus another. Potential and execution are different animals. Maybe vinyl fans noted consistency in their vinyl which was obviously recorded for home playback as compared to early, poorly engineered cds and even modern pop cds engineered for compressed radio playback and in-dash automobile cd players? Plus, there's something to be said for the vinyl ritual, the size of the cover art work and other things that soothe the obsessive-compulsive beast inside.

I've done some reading myself. I recall an interview with an audio engineer who said that the red book standard was wrong from the start. If it wasn't wrong, then there would be no need for higher resolution sacd and dvd-a. One could simply use the red book standard bit rate for multi-channel formats. So there you go. The engineer I read had a different opinion from the engineer you read.

[E-Stat]

IN Absolute Sound a few years back they interviewed a famous audio engineer, a guy
who has done several famous titles, and the interviewer asked him flat out which was best,
CD or vinly, and he said that CD was better , and stated a long list of reasons why.
Which went in and out of the heads of just about all vinyl fans, or course.
Interesting. I'll look back and see if I can find the article to which you reference. Have you read the latest issue with Doug Sax of Sheffield Labs where he says:?

"It's pathetic that the best thing you can buy in 2010 is an LP-an artifact from 1960s."

Obviously, this "mastering engineer extraordinaire" has a different take. :)

9/27 Follow up:

I spent the time looking back at the last five years of TAS and find quite a few interviews with guys like Bob Ludwig, Keith Johnson, Bob Woods and stories about recordings made or remastered by Abbey Road, Telarc, Water Lily and Mobile Sound Fidelity - but nothing that supports your assertion. Abbey Road remasters in 24/192. Telarc uses SACD. Ludwig sends 24/96 masters to Stan Ricker. Keith Johnson said:

"For 25 years we've learned not to expect from the CD what we hear in LP and analog tape"

rw

[E-Stat]

so scientific FACT is now considered "dogma"?
WHAT GALL!!! And "intellectual" honesty"? BECAUSE I won't take part in some lame
biased "test" whose only purpose is to support the delusional attitudes of those who devised it, some of who probably work for the marketing depts of some tube makers?
If you had actually followed the link, you would quickly see there is no reference to output devices or which ones are better. Your groundless rants only demonstrate speculation and ignorance. It is simply a test to determine the audibility of harmonic distortion. If anything, the context is intended to illustrate common speaker distortion although such manifests itself the same with electronics. The only facts are that which you can demonstrate. Which in your case will always be zilch. :)

rw

[Hyfi]

I get your basic point and agree, but I need to make one clarification:

A large number of Emotiva owners also have/had Rotel amps and find the Emotiva to be equal or slightly better than Rotel/other midfi gear... So the Emotiva/B&W combo Pix has probably sounds quite good (for the price)...

However, I agree that it would be great for him to actually try some tubes/more expensive SS instead of just tossing around theory grenades...

The only thing forgotten, since I posted it plenty of times, is the fact that I paid the same money for both a fully working VAC pre and a slightly non working Counterpoint amp, a pair of speakers made by Von Schweikert and Synergistic Cables as a new Emotiva amp sells for. So tubed gear does not have to be expensive to try.

I hooked up the Rotel 1050 last night to my Clearfields and used a $100 dvd player to play some CDs. Impressive? Yes....better sounding than the Hafler, Stratos, or Counterpoint....I don't think so. But for the $100 I paid for it, it's a very nice unit.

And notice that he did not address the fact that he has NO IDEA how good his B&Ws could actually sound if hooked up to a real amp, SS or other.

And in case people get the wrong impression from all the specs. You cannot hear specs. You can only hear the music the units put out and many many people prefer the SOUND of a LESSER Spec'd unit over a better spec'd unit.

The sound is what we are after, not the best spec although it does help to have decent specs to start with.

Bye Bye, See you later.......I'm off to listen to my crappy gear.

[GMichael]

With all of the training I received as a Police, the hip is the last place I WILL SHOOT FROM, and I always hit my target.:1:
Don't give me that. You spout off all the time about things you only know half of the facts on. Shooting from the hip is your montra. I still remember you telling us that Emotiva was crap. You didn't have all the facts, but somehow you knew you were right. I think you missed that target and took out a few civilians along the way.
It's all ok though. It makes for an interesting read most days.

[pixelthis]

Interesting. I'll look back and see if I can find the article to which you reference. Have you read the latest issue with Doug Sax of Sheffield Labs where he says:?

"It's pathetic that the best thing you can buy in 2010 is an LP-an artifact from 1960s."

Obviously, this "mastering engineer extraordinaire" has a different take. :)

rw

I wish I COULD TELL YOU MORE ABOUT the article. I can't afford anything in the mag,
its just stereo porn. I remember the article, almost nothing in it, and I DON'T SAVE
mags very long anymore.:1:

[pixelthis]

Don't give me that. You spout off all the time about things you only know half of the facts on. Shooting from the hip is your montra. I still remember you telling us that Emotiva was crap. You didn't have all the facts, but somehow you knew you were right. I think you missed that target and took out a few civilians along the way.
It's all ok though. It makes for an interesting read most days.

I HAVE said my apologies about being wrong on Emotiva. Give me a break, such cheap gear
that actually is halfway decent? Who coulda known? And the verdict is still out on lifespan.:1:

[E-Stat]

I wish I COULD TELL YOU MORE ABOUT the article...I remember the article, almost nothing in it
I'd leave out the "almost". Read my follow up as I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked for myself. As for TAS, I have virtually every issue save one or two that were lost during my college days in the late 70s.

rw

[pixelthis]

The only thing forgotten, since I posted it plenty of times, is the fact that I paid the same money for both a fully working VAC pre and a slightly non working Counterpoint amp, a pair of speakers made by Von Schweikert and Synergistic Cables as a new Emotiva amp sells for. So tubed gear does not have to be expensive to try.

Its expensive from the viewpoint that its inaccurate, and listening to it is time you don't get back.

I hooked up the Rotel 1050 last night to my Clearfields and used a $100 dvd player to play some CDs. Impressive? Yes....better sounding than the Hafler, Stratos, or Counterpoint....I don't think so. But for the $100 I paid for it, it's a very nice unit.


And you never ask why it is that even cheap SS gear sounds decent .


And notice that he did not address the fact that he has NO IDEA how good his B&Ws could actually sound if hooked up to a real amp, SS or other.


HOW ARROGANT CAN YOU GET? Just because my B&W'S HAVE NEVER BEEN HOOKED UP TO TUBE JUNK, I don't know "how they sound" in your exalted
opinion?
I HAVE HEARD THEM HOOKED up to Adcom, Yamaha, Emotiva, a 1200$ Integra
with a .05 distortion rating, A denon receiver, and a CARVER .
I think I HAVE A PRETTY DECENT IDEA OF HOW THEY CAN SOUND,
oh pompous one.


And in case people get the wrong impression from all the specs. You cannot hear specs. You can only hear the music the units put out and many many people prefer the SOUND of a LESSER Spec'd unit over a better spec'd unit.


This is total nonsense. The music you hear a unit "putting out" is determined by how the unit performs, and the ONLY way to know that is to test it and get the specs on it.
OF COURSE tube junk never beats solid state, never will, so what you imagine you hear
is more important than how the equipment actually performs.
In other words your horse running the DAYTONA got beat by all of the cars, but actualy
beat them because you like your horse better, and what you "like" is more important.
And the bet is that during a double blind test you would pick solid state, which happens
quite a bit, which is why subjective types such as yourself hate such tests.


The sound is what we are after, not the best spec although it does help to have decent specs to start with.

Which is never going to happen with tube gear.
Bye Bye, See you later.......I'm off to listen to my crappy gear.
YOU SAID IT.
And its your time to waste.:1:

[pixelthis]

ANYWAY... the first pics posted of my "system" were before the annual straighten up
that I like to do.
Here is my system as it currently appears, to anyone who still cares. Its not finished,
tho, it never is, I will be "finished" before it is. Looks okay, imho.
An annual refurb of a system is always a good idea, things tend to drift.:1:

[pixelthis]

And heres my latest screen cap...:1:

[pixelthis]

And here is the result from my latest project...my B&W asw1000(or 2000, can't remember).
I had been meaning to transplant the plate amp from my VELODYNE to it.
Well, the operation was a success, the patient survived.
This is a very musical sub, which is why I bought it. Kinda ticked off tho, when I took the amp off of the Velodyne I discovered a cheap piece of plastic was behind it, serving as the housing.
To add insult to injury this piece of plastic was shaped like the horn element from a
Klipsh speaker. Kinda explains why the Velo kept breaking up at high output, probably
this thing vibrating. Anyway my B&W sounds great. Played some David Grey and
a classic 45 rpm long play from MARRS from 1987, remember them? Always been my
demo to test a sub, unreal bass. You can see the album in my latest system pic in the record collection.:1:

[pixelthis]

AND for those who have shown an interest, my "antique" TECHNICS TURNTABLES.
Can't remember which is 1982, and which is 1988. Currently using the direct drive,
it has an antiskate control(probably the older one).
SOME things about Panasonic I don't care for, but there products can't be beat(Panasonic
used to be the Technics brand, there "audiophile" brand). Anyway, their stuff lasts
forever, and both turntables play and handle records about as good as you could expect.
So why get a new TT?:1:

[E-Stat]

So why get a new TT?
As for me, I found better sounding in the Ariston/Linn family over thirty years ago. The 1976 Ariston continues to work perfectly today. Originally, I put an SME on an SL110. Nice and really cool looking, but...

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/sl110.jpg

rw

[pixelthis]

As for me, I found better sounding in the Ariston/Linn family over thirty years ago. The 1976 Ariston continues to work perfectly today. Originally, I put an SME on an SL110. Nice and really cool looking, but...



rw

Nice. My "Platters" have always been rather pedestrian, mostly a pioneer I had for
almost a decade. Almost bought a THORENS , but wound up buying the Rickie Lee
Jones direct to disc reference album he was using to demo it(and the top of the line Denon
I went up there to buy).
Ever listen to or own any Linn CD players? I NEVER DID for the same reason I never
drove a Testarosa. Was sad to hear they got out.:1:

[thekid]

AND for those who have shown an interest, my "antique" TECHNICS TURNTABLES.
Can't remember which is 1982, and which is 1988. Currently using the direct drive,
it has an antiskate control(probably the older one).
SOME things about Panasonic I don't care for, but there products can't be beat(Panasonic
used to be the Technics brand, there "audiophile" brand). Anyway, their stuff lasts
forever, and both turntables play and handle records about as good as you could expect.
So why get a new TT?:1:

Pix-Nice Pics!

Technics did make some nice gear and their TT have an especially well deserved reputation. I use a SL-1300 as my main TT and have a SL-1500 that need to be tweaked.
They are both direct drive TT that are built like tanks. Not saying they are in the Thorens or Linn but for their performance exceeds their price range IMO.

[E-Stat]

Ever listen to or own any Linn CD players? I NEVER DID for the same reason I never drove a Testarosa. Was sad to hear they got out.
No, but I've heard exceptional units from Burmester and EMM Labs. You can get pretty nice players for $56k (2001) and $25k (today), respectively. I find those "Ferraris" provide a useful point of reference. :)

rw

[pixelthis]

No, but I've heard exceptional units from Burmester and EMM Labs. You can get pretty nice players for $56k (2001) and $25k (today), respectively. I find those "Ferraris" provide a useful point of reference. :)

rw

Well, I learned the hard way to stay away from stuff you can't afford.
You will either get overextended buying it, or be broken hearted that you can't have it.
I will audition stuff that is just beyond my resources, that inspires me sometimes.
And sometimes miracles happen, I TRADED IN A 350 dollar B&w SUB THAT I had
had for a week, bought my 1100 dollar sub, paid cash. Won the money at a casino.:1:

[pixelthis]

Pix-Nice Pics!

Technics did make some nice gear and their TT have an especially well deserved reputation. I use a SL-1300 as my main TT and have a SL-1500 that need to be tweaked.
They are both direct drive TT that are built like tanks. Not saying they are in the Thorens or Linn but for their performance exceeds their price range IMO.

Thanks.
YEAH, as far as they typical JAPANESE TURNTABLE of the time, TECHNICS
could not be beat. But thats the way PANNY builds everything.
THEIR product might be crap, but its half life will be longer than lead.:1:

[E-Stat]

Well, I learned the hard way to stay away from stuff you can't afford.
You will either get overextended buying it, or be broken hearted that you can't have it.
Hmmm. That explains why you'll never understand how good audio can be. Hearing the Sea Cliff system is always a joy for me. There's a banker in my neighborhood who owns a Cessna Citation and I'd still love to fly in it - even if my budget would never handle such a purchase!

rw

[pixelthis]

Hmmm. That explains why you'll never understand how good audio can be. Hearing the Sea Cliff system is always a joy for me. There's a banker in my neighborhood who owns a Cessna Citation and I'd still love to fly in it - even if my budget would never handle such a purchase!

rw

I HAVE A perfect understanding of just how good audio can be, I HAVE HEARD REFERENCE systems before. NICE. BUT with a lot that is going on right now I just can't deal
with temptation. It would either break my heart or I WOULD GIVE IN TO IT, and can't afford to right now. As for CESSNAS, they are fun, but in their case its not just the purchase, but the dedication of taking lessons.At any rate I HAVE GIVEN IN TO TEMPTATION before,
and it wasn't pretty is all I will say.:1:

[E-Stat]

I HAVE A perfect understanding of just how good audio can be, I HAVE HEARD REFERENCE systems before. NICE.
Which one(s) have you heard? I confess that I really cannot afford the best ones I've heard as they run from $400k to $500k. As for the Citation jet, they run a few million. :)

rw

[pixelthis]

Nothing near that stratospheric . Stuff from MACINTOSH, Carey, some of MARANTZES
higher end items. WE DON'T HAVE much around here, mostly have to go to BIRMINGHAM,
likkus audio, hes the guy who fixes high end systems in our area.
A FEW YEARS BACK a sat installer got a bunch of floor samples, carey, magneplane I
think, a lot of expensive gear, don't know what the deal was, place went under soon after,
but they had a lot of nice things.
THE PLACE where I buy most of my gear has moved up the street, I looked inside,
a long hall with three listening areas on each side. Only place in this town where you can
get anything halfway decent. Can't wait to check them out. Maybe they will have some
decent mains for under a grand(my limit):1:

[pixelthis]

AS for the Citation, got a chance for a ride several years back. I WORKED AT AN AIRPORT,
Rode with pilots and student pilots all the time. I wanted to ride this one, but I was working
and couldnt get a break. Plane did look nice.:1:

[E-Stat]

Nothing near that stratospheric .
Ok. When playing familiar material on those system(s) - since you never really described one - do you hear things that you had never quite heard the same way before?

rw

[pixelthis]

Ok. When playing familiar material on those system(s) - since you never really described one - do you hear things that you had never quite heard the same way before?

rw
When I was a kid I LIVED at the place on mcfarland, basically. They handled mac,
Dual. JBL, Advent. This stuff was magical to me(I was 12).
Listening to high end gear was a revelation, at that early age and later on.
TAKING electronics class, we had the class curriculum, and the stuff we did on the side,
fixing up old FISHER and other type gear, and rhapsodizing over the latest PIONEER
and SANSUI receivers(I was a kid, okay?).
I have always had to go by the law of diminishing returns , had to settle for the 96% you get
after you clear your first couple of grand. That saves thousands.
I THINK I know where you're going with this, and sorry, but specs have always been important to me. I WOULD MUCH PREFER gear that is accurate, the precise way something sounds
is whats key to me, that is what tends to sound better to me, and gives a more realistic
soundstage.
I know you go by what you "feel" and thats okay. But I SAW a powercord advertised on
this site for 1100 DOLLARS!!!
Which is rediculous. I couldnt beleive the ad copy, at one time they were talking about
photons, for gods sake!!!SORRY but I can't afford such tender offerings to the
imagination, the truth is that this cord will never make a difference in the sound of
anything, its physically impossible, all it will do is enrich the guy who sells it at the expense of the guy who buys it. Thats what it was meant to do.
I CAN'T afford such things, the stuff I COULD BUY WITH 1100 DOLLARS!!!
This is a gap your and my kind will never bridge, having been in a lab, and later flying
checkrides with pilots, I KNOW HOW IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS in anything.
You're senses are very fallible. Interview witnesses after a crime, no two will agree on
anything.WHEN YOU listen to gear you hear what you want to hear, I LISTEN,
to what the music sounds like. I GO BY THE SPECS.
With decent specs you know that what you are buying will at least be in the ballpark.
With what you "hear" you might as well be like the army of "doze" buyers who
don't even understand the gap between the mid and lower range.
Without measurement you are lost in the woods. How your gear performs in a lab, what difference it makes, is key. You cant know what a difference it makes in the sound,
the human animal doesnt have the ability. You have to measure things.

Thats all you can do, at the end of the day. EVERYTHING ELSE is rubbish, as has been shown time and again.:1:
'

[E-Stat]

I have always had to go by the law of diminishing returns...
Most all of us have to face that. It just takes place at different levels.


I know you go by what you "feel" and thats okay.
I go by what I observe.


...the truth is that this cord will never make a difference in the sound of anything, its physically impossible...
I'm not an apologist for every product, but some do make a difference in high rez systems.Engineering wise, they can provide better instantaneous current delivery for high powered amps and provide RFI filtering without limiting current capability.


I KNOW HOW IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS in anything.
Your operating assumption is that we measure all there is to measure and can correlate that to what we hear. Such is not the case. Especially when the measurements are performed in a completely different manner than for playing dynamic music. THD is largely meaningless. The spectra of distortion and the instantaneous nature of distortion, however, is not. There are many amplifiers with incredibly low static metrics that generate relatively high levels of objectionable distortion, especially at the top end that are not reflected by test tones. Numbers alone do not tell the whole story when it comes to music. Never have.

I have never limited my appreciation of audio gear, much less anything else, based upon what I can afford. I can appreciate far beyond my wallet when it comes to numerous activities. I assure you there are levels of detail on your CDs that you have never heard before. I wish everyone could spend days listening to highly tuned super systems in a home environment to fully realize what is possible. I've been extremely lucky having been able to do that with a couple of audio reviewers who get all the toys for over thirty years. I really didn't know what I didn't know until - I experienced it. Maybe some day you'll figure that out.

rw

[poppachubby]

Indeed. Take most 80's direct drive tables. They measure quite well, often, better than tables that clearly sound 20 times better.

[Smokey]

THD is largely meaningless.

How can you say that?

If THD is meaningless, then why not buy a car amp that have 1000 watts with 10% THD that sell for $100.

THD is measure of amp's frequecy response in regrad to amplyfing the input signal. Or in another word, comparing amp's output signal to its input. The higher THD, the less output signal will look like the input.

[E-Stat]

How can you say that?If THD is meaningless, then why not buy a car amp that have 1000 watts with 10% THD that sell for $100.
Ok, you got me. I guess I need to pull a Pat D and assume that you have some understanding of how mid-fi audio components compare against that which is better. We can skip overt garbage.


THD is measure of amp's frequecy response in regrad to amplyfing the input signal. Or in another word, comparing amp's output signal to its input. The higher THD, the less output signal will look like the input.
I see you have a grasp of the obvious and the simple. What isn't obvious is the difference between what happens with test tones and what happens with music. Why do you think that many amplifiers from companies ranging from Crown to Pass Labs have higher rated distortion specs than their predecessors?

rw

[Smokey]

Ok, you got me. I guess I need to pull a Pat D and assume that you have some understanding of how mid-fi audio components compare against that which is better. We can skip overt garbage.

Well, distortion is distortion whether we are talking about car amps or $10,000 amps. Even if distortion is intentional.


I see you have a grasp of the obvious and the simple. What isn't obvious is the difference between what happens with test tones and what happens with music.

Ok, I give you that. But then you have to answer the following question:

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics? I mean if an amp that distort third harmonics of test tone wouldn't also distort the third harmnics of music tone.


Why do you think that many amplifiers from companies ranging from Crown to Pass Labs have higher rated distortion specs than their predecessors?

That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models. And when you buy an amp that have their own signature, you are buying somebody elses vision (in this case the designer) as to how an amp should sound.

Less distortion, the less signature sound :)

[E-Stat]

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics?
And more. That's the point. It is far easier to handle simple tones than dynamic music with complex harmonic patterns. The results with the former are not indicative of what happens with the latter.


That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models.
Nope. The real answer is that better open loop performance without feedback crutches sounds far better musically even if it measures poorly. Engineers have learned what really works in the real world if not on paper.



Less distortion, the less signature sound :)
For those who listen to static test tones, yes. The Crown D-150 I owned as a teenager had positively wonderful specs - yet sounded hard as nails at the top and had a constricted soundstage. But then, simplistic metrics don't begin to address any sort of qualitative results.

rw

[pixelthis]

Well, distortion is distortion whether we are talking about car amps or $10,000 amps. Even if distortion is intentional.



Ok, I give you that. But then you have to answer the following question:

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics? I mean if an amp that distort third harmonics of test tone wouldn't also distort the third harmnics of music tone.



That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models. And when you buy an amp that have their own signature, you are buying somebody elses vision (in this case the designer) as to how an amp should sound.

Less distortion, the less signature sound :)

You are wasting your time Smokey. You are arguing with someone who doesnt understand the scientific method, someone who uses doublespeak that means nothing
to justify very expensive low performing gear.
What matters is how gear performs, measurement is important, without it you are
lost in the woods.
For instance I STARTED out a huge rock and roll fan, still enjoy some of it.
But as my gear got better and better, I FOUND MY TASTES CHANGING.
Now I listen mostly to jazz. MEDIOCRE gear can mask bad music, gear needs to be
neutral, and provide clear accurate music.
TUBE gear provides less performance than Solid state , simple as that. It gets kinda
frustrating when the touchy feely crowd says that that doesnt matter.
They seem to have forgotten the purpose of this hobby, to reproduce audio (and now video)
as cleanly and accurately as possible. Everything else is a cheat.
EQ, bass, treble, and especially loudness controls fell out oif favor for that reason,
they color the sound and audiophiles understood that.
WHAT THE STILL HAVENT GOT is that stuff like 1100 dollar power cords and silver interconnects are mere snake oil. FRUSTRATING TO TRY to explain that there is NO
way a "power cord" can affect the sound of a properly working piece of gear.
You might as well be saying the moon is made of green cheese.
BUT AT LEAST these modern equivalents of green magic markers won't hurt the
sound(usually). Tubes on the other hand are, compared to solid state, inherently unstable,
work different day to day based on ambient temp, their age, how long the circuit has been on, etc. And the output can never be as accurate as solid state. TUBE GEAR
actually degrades the sound. Tubes need to be replaced on a regular basis also,
usually leading to a snipe hunt like POPPA IS GOING ON NOW.
Tube fanciers, like the emperor convinced his "invisible" set of clothes is Superior,
are not going to be swayed by logic, heavy de-programming, or anything else. At least the Emperor finally listened to the innocent statement of truth from a small child.
Tube(and other audio voodoo ) fanciers will never be swayed from their nonsense,
no matter how many thousands of rationalists lay siege to their delusions.:1:

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]Most all of us have to face that. It just takes place at different levels.


BOING! There is a certain performance point at which you are going to get the max bang for the buck, then more and more dollars will net less and less improvements in performance. It doesnt take place at different levels, but different price points, depending on how well your gear performs and how much it costs.
You will finally get to a point where a massive investment results in a tiny increase in performance. THE TRICK IS to ride the edge, get the best performing gear for the best price


I go by what I observe.
But measurement (observation) is unimportant?


I'm not an apologist for every product, but some do make a difference in high rez systems.Engineering wise, they can provide better instantaneous current delivery for high powered amps and provide RFI filtering without limiting current capability.

This says a lot and means absolutely nothing.
YOU NEED TO BECOME a speech writer for a politician


Your operating assumption is that we measure all there is to measure and can correlate that to what we hear. Such is not the case. Especially when the measurements are performed in a completely different manner than for playing dynamic music. THD is largely meaningless. The spectra of distortion and the instantaneous nature of distortion, however, is not. There are many amplifiers with incredibly low static metrics that generate relatively high levels of objectionable distortion, especially at the top end that are not reflected by test tones. Numbers alone do not tell the whole story when it comes to music. Never have.


No, but numbers give you some idea of what you are dealing with, you can't dismiss them because you don't like the results.
Oh wait, you can, that is why the use of inferior tube equipment, in spie of the fact that it can't "measure up".



I have never limited my appreciation of audio gear, much less anything else, based upon what I can afford. I can appreciate far beyond my wallet when it comes to numerous activities. I assure you there are levels of detail on your CDs that you have never heard before. I wish everyone could spend days listening to highly tuned super systems in a home environment to fully realize what is possible. I've been extremely lucky having been able to do that with a couple of audio reviewers who get all the toys for over thirty years. I really didn't know what I didn't know until - I experienced it. Maybe some day you'll figure that out.


Maybe you will figure out that, while not listening to a mega buck system, I have trucked my CD's over half the south listening to some pretty nice systems.
AND THE differences between a megabuck system and a mere "high end" system are
not as big as you might think, there are smaller fractions of improvement the higher you go up the food chain.:1:

[E-Stat]

No, but numbers give you some idea of what you are dealing with, you can't dismiss them because you don't like the results.
Real science tests relevance of data. Unlike you who are afraid to perform such a test, real scientists determine thresholds.


Oh wait, you can, that is why the use of inferior tube equipment, in spie of the fact that it can't "measure up".
Real scientists experiment rather than speculate.


AND THE differences between a megabuck system and a mere "high end" system are not as big as you might think...
For one who thinks Advent and JBL are "high end", we have very, very different points of reference that lead us to different conclusions.

rw

[Geoffcin]

Real science tests relevance of data.

rw

Actually, science only makes REAL sense if what your testing is relevant!

I still vividly remember my first "great" NEC CD player. Set me back some change back in '84 when it promised "Perfect sound forever" The specs were impressive, the sound wasn't. Back then nobody even knew what jitter WAS, (or brick wall filter ringing) let alone test for it. Unfortunately I was one of those that were VERY sensitive to jitter distortion and it really wasn't until I got my current CD player (which actually specs no better than that old NEC using the old THD measurements) that I heard at least a hint of what CD performance was supposed to be. (you still need great engineered CD's!)

THD means something, but even more so is WHAT the THD is comprised of. If you have 1% of distortion that is primarily 2'nd order, then it is going to be nearly impossible to hear. If you have even.1% of distortion that is third order then you are going to sense it as hard/grating/glassy. That is of course if your speaker are even capable of that kind of resolution! Most people leave the speakers out of the equation, but by FAR they are the most important part of what your whole system will sound like, and what you'll be able to resolve.

FYI; I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know E-Stat, but I am loath the respond directly to any PIX bomb.

[E-Stat]

Actually, science only makes REAL sense if what your testing is relevant!... If you have 1% of distortion that is primarily 2'nd order, then it is going to be nearly impossible to hear. If you have even.1% of distortion that is third order then you are going to sense it as hard/grating/glassy.
Thank you. At least someone here really understands the perception of sound.


FYI; I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know E-Stat, but I am loath the respond directly to any PIX bomb.
I guess you're right. He'll never learn anything. For the benefit of anyone who wants to learn something about human perception, this (http://www.next-tube.com/articles/Cheever/cheever.pdf) is a good document on the audibility of various kinds of distortion.

rw

[Smokey]

And more. That's the point. It is far easier to handle simple tones than dynamic music with complex harmonic patterns.

That is excatly my point. If an amp can not replicate a simple sine wave form due to high distortion, how would you expect it to do better with complex wave that have many more harmonics. I wish you think about that for a moment.

For example, a 1k square wave is made of 1k pure sinewave with odd integer harmonics. If you send that square wave thru a circuit that can not replicate the odd harmnics accurately, what you will get at other end is not a perfect square wave any more.

Now if we send a complex wave form thru the same circuit, what you make you think that circuit will perform differently as regard to harmonics?


Nope. The real answer is that better open loop performance without feedback crutches sounds far better musically even if it measures poorly. Engineers have learned what really works in the real world if not on paper.

Well my friend whether you like it or not, feedback is integral part of analog circuits and design. There is feed back in every circuit, starting with power supply circuit. Without feedback, the circuit is unstable, unperdictable and specifications uncontrollable. It is electronics 101.


The Crown D-150 I owned as a teenager had positively wonderful specs - yet sounded hard as nails at the top and had a constricted soundstage. But then, simplistic metrics don't begin to address any sort of qualitative results.

I agree. Simplistic metric does not address qualitative results, but it does get you in the ball park of accuracy. Once there, then you can pick an amp that sound best to you.

I looked at Crown D-150 specifications and it does have impressive numbers. You ever thought that Crown amp sounding hard as nails or constricted soundstage might have been result of your speakers or set up?

But either way, I hope you are not judging specification just based on performance of one amp alone.


You are wasting your time Smokey

Not as long as issues are discussed intelligently....and no name calling :)

[E-Stat]

That is excatly my point. If an amp can not replicate a simple sine wave form due to high distortion, how would you expect it to do better with complex wave that have many more harmonics.
You have totally missed my point. The fact that a poorly designed high-feedback amplifier can demonstrate low distortion when reproducing a simple test tone DOES NOT ensure that it will perform as well on dynamic music signals.


For example, a 1k square wave is made of 1k pure sinewave with odd integer harmonics. If you send that square wave thru a circuit that can not replicate the odd harmnics accurately, what you will get at other end is not a perfect square wave any more.
Sure. What does that have to do with the discussion? You can find any number of switching amps that demonstrate low distortion, but bend the crap out of a square wave. Yet another demonstration that low THD alone is utterly meaningless.


There is feed back in every circuit, starting with power supply circuit.
How do you respond to such profound ignorance of what is available?


Without feedback, the circuit is unstable, unperdictable and specifications uncontrollable. It is electronics 101.
That's what happens when you have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. There are audio electronics, both SS and tube alike, that do not rely on that crutch.


Simplistic metric does not address qualitative results, but it does get you in the ball park of accuracy.
Only in the grossest form.


I looked at Crown D-150 specifications and it does have impressive numbers. You ever thought that Crown amp sounding hard as nails or constricted soundstage might have been result of your speakers or set up?
Sure. Then I compared other amplifiers in the same system and the problem went away. The 1981 Threshold with zero global feedback is significantly better sounding. I got over your simplistic thinking when I was a teenager. Units employing first generation op amps were universally poor sounding.


But either way, I hope you are not judging specification just based on performance of one amp alone.
Certainly not. I was foolish to buy another amp just because of its specs and found it sounded poorly at low levels. I listen to amplifiers, not metrics which fail to correlate to real world performance.

rw

[Geoffcin]

OK, I think we're straying way too far off topic now.

[pixelthis]

OK, I think we're straying way too far off topic now.


ITS MY THREAD...whaddau expect?:1:

[BallinWithNash]

And the old rebuilt Fort T I saw at the fair this weekend will beat the 2007,2008,2009 etc.. Corvette! any time! ... right Pixie?, lmao

[pixelthis]

And the old rebuilt Fort T I saw at the fair this weekend will beat the 2007,2008,2009 etc.. Corvette! any time! ... right Pixie?, lmao

IN ANY given case any ford will beat any Chevy, if for no other reason that said CHEVY
will probably fall apart before it reaches the finish. My bro put three transmissions in
his S10 the first year, before he wrote it off as a bad job. Meanwhile I PUT 150k on a
crown vic in a year and a half,police duty , and only changed the oil. JUST traded it
because the city made me.Can't win if you can't keep it together.:1:

[audio amateur]

The ZR1 Corvette will beat any other American sports car:)

[Hyfi]

The ZR1 Corvette will beat any other American sports car:)

Don't even bother with someone who makes a statement that any HTIB will sound as good or better than any Tube based system. The thought process trickles down to any subject you can bring up.

[StevenSurprenant]

pixelthis long time no see...

I've been away for a long time and am glad to still see you battling the evil forces here on audioreview.

Nice stuff!

Here's a picture of mine. As you can see, it's under construction.
Samsung 52 inch
Magnepan mains
Magnepan center
Magnepan surround
System Audio ambiance speakers
Yamaha 1800 reciever
HSU subwoofer
Foam in corners

[pixelthis]

pixelthis long time no see...

I've been away for a long time and am glad to still see you battling the evil forces here on audioreview.

Nice stuff!

Here's a picture of mine. As you can see, it's under construction.
Samsung 52 inch
Magnepan mains
Magnepan center
Magnepan surround
System Audio ambiance speakers
Yamaha 1800 reciever
HSU subwoofer
Foam in corners

GREAT system, very clean.
Only prob I have with MAGGIES is expecting a bunch of apes to jump out, start throwing
bones all over the place. But to each his own.:1:

[StevenSurprenant]

GREAT system, very clean.
Only prob I have with MAGGIES is expecting a bunch of apes to jump out, start throwing
bones all over the place. But to each his own.:1:

It took me a minute to understand where you were coming from, ... 2001 a Space Odyssey?
LOL!

Anyway, there is no right or wrong in audio, only preferences like you said.

Pictures don't ever show things as they appear in real life. It doesn't seem as sparse as it appears in the picture. I plan on moving the electronics away from the front and putting up something green like fake plants. Oh well, to each his own.

The only thing is that we like what we have, don't you agree?

Although I am partial to dipole speakers, I find that the System Audio speakers used for ambiance adds enough dynamics to the sound to overcome the lack of dynamics in dipole speakers. As we all know, dynamics is important for movies. They sound somewhat like your B&W's.

I like many systems even if they are not what I would choose. Most decent systems have attributes that I really enjoy.

Anyway, thanks. It's always good to see other systems. I wish I had a turntable and the records to go with it! I really miss them.

[pixelthis]

It took me a minute to understand where you were coming from, ... 2001 a Space Odyssey?
LOL!

Anyway, there is no right or wrong in audio, only preferences like you said.

Pictures don't ever show things as they appear in real life. It doesn't seem as sparse as it appears in the picture. I plan on moving the electronics away from the front and putting up something green like fake plants. Oh well, to each his own.

The only thing is that we like what we have, don't you agree?

Although I am partial to dipole speakers, I find that the System Audio speakers used for ambiance adds enough dynamics to the sound to overcome the lack of dynamics in dipole speakers. As we all know, dynamics is important for movies. They sound somewhat like your B&W's.

I like many systems even if they are not what I would choose. Most decent systems have attributes that I really enjoy.

Anyway, thanks. It's always good to see other systems. I wish I had a turntable and the records to go with it! I really miss them.

There are decent ones at thrift stores all the time.
There is nothing special about records, IMHO, but I have a crate that surrived a flood that
wiped out the other two, and I listen to them every once in awhile.
AND yes, dynamics is important in HT, not so much in music perhaps, but still nice to have(unless its two in the morning and you risk waking the neighbors)!:1: