Preamp and Carts Questions

[Enochrome]

Hey everyone!! Trying to take advantage of the collective super brain of the forum.

Got some rookie questions for ya:

Thinking about getting the Bellari VP130, as well as either the Denon 160, AT440Mla or the AT-301 MLK2 (might be too expensive), but had some questions first.

1. Any opinions on those?

2. Can you run a high output MC cart through a mc stage? As well can you run it through the Bellari and then the MC stage?

3. Also, can you run a low output mc through the Bellari and then the mc stage in my receiver?

Thanks

[JohnMichael]

The Belari is fine for the high output Denon or the AT440 but not the low output of the moving coil AT.

An MC stage is for low output cartridges. A mm cartridge's higher output could cause the MC stage to overload and distort.

Running a cartridge through two stages would double the riaa equalization. I am sure that would sound terrible.

I once owned the AT and found it to be a thin sounding cartridge. I have read where it has more warmth since switching to an aluminum cantilever.

[Enochrome]

Thanks Jon Michael!

I just wanted to have the best of both worlds on the cheap: tube sound + mc sound.
I might go for the AT-440MLA + Bellari combo or the Denon DL-160 by itself.
440mla + bellari combo might be a great synergy of the warm tube with high frequency extension of the cart. The great tracking and reduced surface noise qualities of the 440 are really appealing.

Can you use the Denon DL-160 through the mc stage with greater results than the mm stage?

[poppachubby]

Can you use the Denon DL-160 through the mc stage with greater results than the mm stage?

John already answered this for you, the short answer is no. You can do it and the result will be way more gain than the cart was designed for.

At first, you may be deceived into thinking it sounds "better", as added gain can have that illusion. If it doesn't distort, it will be much louder and forward. The problem is that all of the wonderful intricacies and nuances of your cart will be lost. The soundstage will be unrealistic and inflated.

I would be surprised if you would be able to tolerate it frankly. HOMC into a proper 47k MM input will respond how it's supposed to. There are some guys at AK who apparently are deaf and think the MC loading sounds "good". Believe me it doesn't.

I put the Blue Point through the MC stage of a Kenwood Basic C1 and it only takes a few listens to realise that it's not correct.

As for the Bellari, have you considered anything else in that range? I have a Creek OBH-18 which I replaced a Bellari with. Personally I think it's much more refined sounding than the Bellari. Creek is not a "popular" brand but believe me, they know a thing or two. I can also say that the Creek competes well beyond it's price.

Rather than the Bellari, which only buffers the signal, you should consider a true tube pre.

Grant are selling these for $325. This would give you that real tube warmth you're after.

http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/P307

As for the HOMC, I think you're barking up the right tree.

Wow, the Creek has been reduced!!

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73360

[Enochrome]

Thanks for the info Poppa.

Although, I thought the Bellari was a phono preamp not just a buffer? Is it a buffer when
you use it as a headphone amp?

The Grant Fidelity is rebadged Yaqin, which I have been eyeing for some time (if only I had the cash!!). Grant Fidelity charges more, but they don't take 2 months to ship it to you.

[02audionoob]

Thanks for the info Poppa.

Although, I thought the Bellari was a phono preamp not just a buffer? Is it a buffer when
you use it as a headphone amp?

The Grant Fidelity is rebadged Yaqin, which I have been eyeing for some time (if only I had the cash!!). Grant Fidelity charges more, but they don't take 2 months to ship it to you.

What poppachubby was talking about with the Bellari is that it's not a true tube design. The gain comes from a solid-state design and is then run through a tube on the way out.

By the way...it is my opinion that the Bellari doesn't have enough gain for HOMC cartridges. The Bellari's gain is 30dB and you need more like 42dB. It's not that you couldn't make do, but I had one and I think it wasn't enough with my Goldring Eroica H with its 2.5mV output.

[poppachubby]

Thanks for the info Poppa.

Although, I thought the Bellari was a phono preamp not just a buffer? Is it a buffer when
you use it as a headphone amp?

The Grant Fidelity is rebadged Yaqin, which I have been eyeing for some time (if only I had the cash!!). Grant Fidelity charges more, but they don't take 2 months to ship it to you.

Ian Grant puts his own touches on the gear, and has Yaqin manufacture it for him. He gets exclusivity for 2 years and then Yaqin can sell his design to other manufacturers or the public if they choose.

The difference is only $70 from the Bellari to the Grant. I would say save your money, the difference will be worth far more than 70. The Bellari puts a boosted signal through a single 12AX7. The Grant boosts the signal with a pair of 12AU7 and a pair of 12AX7.

There's no comparison.

[02audionoob]

Is it just me, or do the MC and tube sound objectives sound sort of at odds with each other? I'm no expert, but it seems like the extra level of detail one would hope to achieve with the MC cartridge has the potential to be blurred by the low-end tube gear...no?

[Enochrome]

Poppa and Noob: you are correct and you are correct; I thank you and I thank you.

Also, how the hell do you guys know all this!!! It never seems to amaze the bottomless well
that all of you have on the forum. In a way I exploit you all, but with gratitude and love : )

Yes, the mc and tube seem at odds, but it seems that mine and some others end audio goal is to have the high level of detail and extension with the warmth. But it seems that maybe that is asking too much and the tube is at odds with the coil.

Anyways, Poppa you are right and there is anything I have learned from all this gear craziness is that wait for the things that you really want, don't settle. Settling will make yo think "what if I had...."

Just got home from a great show at the Hollywood Bowl of Phoenix and Grizzly Bear. Phoenix really knows how to put on a show!!!! Check them out if you can.

[poppachubby]

Nothing like a good show to shake up the juices.

Anyhow, I just think that for the price, you would be better to save a bit more and just bypass the Bellari all together. Maybe you could find something locally that's used. For that matter, if you can get the Bellari used, that would change things a bit.

[02audionoob]

I like poppa's suggestion of a used Bellari. In addition to that, I'd offer up the idea of a tube buffer. Grant sells one for $125. That would give you a bit of the tube experience.

The thing with tube gear, though, is it seems to me you have to be willing to spend some bucks on it. Perhaps it's different with vintage gear...poppachubby could comment more on that than I could. But with the new tube gear I've heard and/or researched it seems like the lower end of the price range sounds too tubey. It can be fun to listen to but it makes compromises that might not be acceptable.

As for MC cartridges, keep an eye on compliance and mass when you're shopping for these. I see you didn't mention the Denon DL-103, so maybe you're already doing that. One thing you could consider is something like Bellari and a Goldring 1042 cartridge. The 1042's output would be high enough to work very comfortably with the Bellari. The 1042 seems to me to provide that elusive combination of detail and warmth.

I need to go back and look at what gear you have, though. What's your current phono stage?

[02audionoob]

By the way...I think I should clarify on the idea of a Denon DL-160 and a Bellari...I don't disagree with JohnMichael's comment that it should be fine. Just thinking in terms of optimum, not ruling out the idea.

[poppachubby]

The Creek OBH 18 at $200 is an absolute steal. I think the Cambridge 640P sells in this range, and I can assure you the OBH 18 leaves that unit in the dust.

Here's a little sample of the Creek. This combo is a Technics SL-Q2, a lowly Audio Technica 90CD and the Creek OBH18. I can tell you with certainty that the Creek makes all the difference here, having tried other stages in it's place.

Remember, I am running the Creek with the same amp as you.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2930675/Friday%20Night%20in%20San%20Fransisco%20-%20DiMeola%2C%20McLaughlin%20and%20DeLucia.rar

[poppachubby]

I like poppa's suggestion of a used Bellari. In addition to that, I'd offer up the idea of a tube buffer. Grant sells one for $125. That would give you a bit of the tube experience.

The thing with tube gear, though, is it seems to me you have to be willing to spend some bucks on it. Perhaps it's different with vintage gear...poppachubby could comment more on that than I could. But with the new tube gear I've heard and/or researched it seems like the lower end of the price range sounds too tubey. It can be fun to listen to but it makes compromises that might not be acceptable.



Again, you could get a buffer but I think that a tubed pre is the best solution if you are craving a tube sound.

Right now my EICO HF85 is buffering my CDP. What a difference let me tell you.

noob is quite right about cost, HOWEVER once you spend the cash (which shouldn't be an uncomfortable amount) you'll be good to go for years to come. You will also have that high fidelity sound which noob is talking about.

At the mid to high level, tube gear is indeed warmer and smoother, particularily in the mid range. This is done with subtlety, and never abandons the integrity of the source. I think you hit it on the head ENO, better to do it right and get the real deal. If selected correctly, we are talking about pieces which will be with you for the rest of your life. Chances are you will be satisfied and not have that itch to change gear. Even if it does hit you, you won't part with your tube stuff.

The low end stuff, and buffers too, are a stepping stone and won't hold you for long.

Most important is pinpointing exactly where you see your system going. With this type of planning, you can select the right components. On that note, it's my opinion that you should stick with used gear until you beleive that you know exactly what you want.

This way, you can resell and get your money back out. Sometimes you can even make a bit of cash. Once you find those perfect pieces, perhaps you can consider their new counterparts, knowing that you will be staying with it.

[Enochrome]

Noob and Poppa,

Thanks for the advice. Thinking about the direction my system will go in for the next
couple of years. I have an MC phono stage in my Luxman 3045 receiver that will allow
me to use a low output mc. My handicap is my low mass arm on my Luxman table. There
a couple of high compliant LOMC's, particularly the Denon 301 MK2, AT OC9 2 and one other I am forgetting; they all are about $300.00.

The HOMC for the Denon 160 is really attracting me, but I would still like to take advantage of my MC stage. I wouldn't even have this issue if I had a heavier arm, because I would choose a Denon 103 in a heartbeat, especially considering it is on average cheaper than the 160.

I heard there is a marginal difference in the Denon 160 and the AT-440Mla, heard anything like that?

So the decision really is to go low cost used tube preamp and HOMC/MM cart or no tube and LOMC?

Thanks again for all the info.

[02audionoob]

How about no tube and an Ortofon Samba for $285?

[Enochrome]

Noob, whaaat!!!! you brought in the day-glo Ortofon series from left-field!!

Isn't the compliance too low? Talk about a series of carts that don't have
much info. I barely ever read any comments on these. What is the consensus
on the Samba?

What about the Denon 301 MKII?

[02audionoob]

The Samba has enough mass of its own to get into optimum range with some fairly light tonearm mass numbers. I tried a calculation using 8.5 grams for the tonearm effective mass and came up with a resonant frequency of 10.8 Hz. The Samba, Tango and Salsa do fly under the radar, and I have not heard any of them. The Samba seems to have made a good impression here, though, being their favorite of the three...

Hi-Fi World July 2007 (http://www.speakerbits.com/Download/Reviews/OCMCTAN.pdf)

[Enochrome]

So, looked into some MC carts but my choices were limited.
I learned through trial error how to use the Vinyl Engine resonance chart
and learned that the weight of the cart is determining factor along with the
tone arm mass and the cart compliance.

Thus, I found few options: the before mentioned Denon 301 MK 2,110, 160, the Ortofon MC 10,15 and 20, Tango and Samba, also (and the most alluring) are the Audio Technica's FT3-2, OC9 MK 2, and AT-33E (?)

As much I want to take the plunge I have not had any experience with Denon or AT. I have heard that AT's can be bright or the hot side of neutra and the Denon can be thin. This makes me think that maybe I should try an affordable MM from those two companies like the AT-440Mla, to get a glimpse of their "house sound"?

In my Ortofon OM20 i like the sound stage and pace, but I do feel it is a little thin and image separation is a little lacking (not much), thus Ortofon MC's I am hesistant.

Speaking of my OM 20, the right channel has gone out again. The problem is the cart, because I tested it with two different receivers and cables. So, I have a unusable OM 20 cart that has still a very good stylus that I thought any of you OM owners might find useful and would like to do a trade? I am not looking for anything beyond maybe some accessories that are below $50.00, I could use some interconnects, record cleaning accessories, cheap record clamp or some good headshell leads. I don't want to get a great deal at the expense of all you really cool people. Trade if you have anything lying around.

For me it is not worth it for others to buy on Audiogon or for me to pay all those fees.

PM me if you are interested.

Here's some cart pics:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5039230297_192825fe2c_m.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5039850768_37693d07ce_m.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5039850796_ed9fcbe097_m.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5039230269_0c15981c95_m.jpg

[Enochrome]

Damn!!! I'm getting good at posting pics :)

I have some other pics to post on some record finds on the
other thread soon.

[poppachubby]

Eno, keep in mind that no cart will be perfect. That said, I have a Blue POint which gets a bad rap, but I love it. Frankly, I don't hear some of the "problems" which others seem to have.

Just make sure if there's a compromise, that it's one you can live with. All of the carts you've mentioned will sound good.

[Enochrome]

Thanks Poppa.

Is the Sumiko a HOMC? What are some of the identifiable characteristics of HOMC's?
i.e. how are they similar/different from LOMCs and MMs?

[poppachubby]

Thanks Poppa.

Is the Sumiko a HOMC? What are some of the identifiable characteristics of HOMC's?
i.e. how are they similar/different from LOMCs and MMs?


The HOMC is trying to be all things at all times, much like what you are looking for.

Looks like I will be byuing a Nagaoka MP 200, hopefully today but maybe tommorrow as it's getting late. I'm super excited. I had been on a fence regarding HOMC or MM. As far as MC is concerned, I don't have the budget to buy what I would really want. I would like to start with something better than a Samba for instance. Also, I still need to modify *Phono2* on the Bozak to accomodate 100k.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Nagaoka-MP-200-cartridge.jpg

How's your search going? Have you looked into Nagaoka? They are a MM only company. They pull no punches about it, their carts are everything you would expect from quality MM with no lame attempts to be "coilish". There is detail, but perhaps not to the extent you would like. Like most MM they tend to struggle through high complexity, however still manage to do a great job while sounding super tasty. One thing is for sure, they make ultra listenable carts...

Take care...

[Enochrome]

Got a new cart yesterday: Denon DL-110

It was between that or the Nagaoka MP-150, but the compliance on the Nag was not working out in the resonance table. Also, I traded some old textbooks into Amazon and with that I was able to get the 110 for $29.00, couldn't pass up that deal.

Still listening to it and determining my likes and dislikes. What I can tell you now is that it is a great synergy of my two previous carts the Grado Blue and Ortofon OM20. It has the detail and frequency extension of the OM20, but even more. It is far deeper sound stage than the OM20, and equal to the Blue. It is almost as warm as the Blue, but it reveals greater timbrel characteristics and the stage is wider. It tracks better waaaay better than the Blue (no more IGD yay!!) and better than the OM20.

Here is some pics:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5096802611_2591a4b62c.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5096802463_d03686f0b3.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5096802543_d9df64c4f8.jpg

sorry about the quality: camera phone

I used my own weight from a previous cart because the weight of the cart is only 4.8, giving it 7.3 grams, and the compliance is around 16; is that right to do so? Also, I balanced the tone arm a little positive for the VTA to make up for the inherently tall aspect of the cart and the weight; correct?

Cheers

[poppachubby]

Yes!!!

Congrats man, looks superb!! I would say if it's tracking nicely and sounds good, everything you've done is great. What a price!! Trade a couple of books and throw in some pocket change.

The pics are fantastic. Would you say that this cart is satisfying your needs? Sounds like it is, and you've barely broke it in. Glad you took the plunge Eno, you deserve to be listening to the best my man.

Next step would be a nice external pre amp. I was close to selling my Creek (http://www.creekaudio.com/products/obh18.php), but have changed my mind. I'm using it in my computer system as a means to rip LPs, but also for listening occasionally. It helps to create astonishingly brilliant rips. When I think of all the joy it would bring you, I come close to doing it. The Creek OBH-18 was selling at Music Direct for $200!!! Seems they sold out (of course!). However Audio Advisor has them for only $250, an excellent price when you consider Needle Dr. still has them at $325.

When you pit the OBH18 against the cambridge 640P for instance, the price/performance of the Creek is undeniable. At 250, it's only $50 more than the Cambridge.

Here's a thought. My EICO HF85 is being modded. When it comes back, I am almost certain that it will dethrone my Bozak. Rather than have my Bozak sit in a closet, I will use it in place of my Creek, and sell the Creek to you. Sound good? This is all pending that I am happy with the EICO sitting in the main system.

Of course, I will give you a friend price. How does $100 USD sound? It's absolutely mint condition. It has the standard DC wall wart (which is super quiet), but Creek sell an upgraded power supply (http://www.creekaudio.com/products/obhuni.php)if you so choose. Of course, I could teach you how to run it off of a couple 12V batteries instead.

Anyhow, that cart needs something special to process it's signal. We'll talk. I expect the HF85 back in a couple of weeks.

[02audionoob]

Congratulations, Eno! Nice pics for a phone. It would seem like the Denon could potentially benefit from the added weight. Based on the formula I have, the weight didn't cause a negative effect on the result until I got to at least 11 grams of tonearm mass.

[Enochrome]

Noob,

I used the resonance chart on Vinyl Engine.

I had read that translating the compliance of japanese companies that rate at 100hz is essentially doubling it for a spec at 10hz compliance. I added a 2.5 gram weight to make the carts' mass to 7.3. With a cart mass of 7.3 and the tone arm mass being between 6 - 8 grams, I got a frequency of 11hz.

Was I close? I also heard change the load resistance can help?

[poppachubby]

Did you miss my post Eno?

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=344736&postcount=25

[02audionoob]

Noob,

I used the resonance chart on Vinyl Engine.

I had read that translating the compliance of japanese companies that rate at 100hz is essentially doubling it for a spec at 10hz compliance. I added a 2.5 gram weight to make the carts' mass to 7.3. With a cart mass of 7.3 and the tone arm mass being between 6 - 8 grams, I got a frequency of 11hz.

Was I close? I also heard change the load resistance can help?

It does indeed sound like you're doing it correctly. I get close to 11 Hz with 6 grams and a little over 10 Hz with 8 grams.

As for the load, often referred to in this context as impedance, the Denon high-output MC cartridges are designed for a load of 47k Ohm. If you have other options, you might want to try them, just to see what effect they have. The guys at AK often discussing modding their setup to provide the Shure M97XE with a 62k load to open up the top end a bit. I have a 100k Ohm setting on my Kenwood Basic C2, but that's a little extreme.

[Enochrome]

Yes!!!

Congrats man, looks superb!! I would say if it's tracking nicely and sounds good, everything you've done is great. What a price!! Trade a couple of books and throw in some pocket change.

The pics are fantastic. Would you say that this cart is satisfying your needs? Sounds like it is, and you've barely broke it in. Glad you took the plunge Eno, you deserve to be listening to the best my man.

Next step would be a nice external pre amp. I was close to selling my Creek (http://www.creekaudio.com/products/obh18.php), but have changed my mind. I'm using it in my computer system as a means to rip LPs, but also for listening occasionally. It helps to create astonishingly brilliant rips. When I think of all the joy it would bring you, I come close to doing it. The Creek OBH-18 was selling at Music Direct for $200!!! Seems they sold out (of course!). However Audio Advisor has them for only $250, an excellent price when you consider Needle Dr. still has them at $325.

When you pit the OBH18 against the cambridge 640P for instance, the price/performance of the Creek is undeniable. At 250, it's only $50 more than the Cambridge.

Here's a thought. My EICO HF85 is being modded. When it comes back, I am almost certain that it will dethrone my Bozak. Rather than have my Bozak sit in a closet, I will use it in place of my Creek, and sell the Creek to you. Sound good? This is all pending that I am happy with the EICO sitting in the main system.

Of course, I will give you a friend price. How does $100 USD sound? It's absolutely mint condition. It has the standard DC wall wart (which is super quiet), but Creek sell an upgraded power supply (http://www.creekaudio.com/products/obhuni.php)if you so choose. Of course, I could teach you how to run it off of a couple 12V batteries instead.

Anyhow, that cart needs something special to process it's signal. We'll talk. I expect the HF85 back in a couple of weeks.

I read your post and thanks Poppa!! I think the cart is settling in more and some of the stiff highs frequencies are dissipating and providing a smoother image. The detail retrieval, balance ( never really understood what that really meant till this cart) and the transients are simply flooring me right now. Yet, I am still adjusting the right set up, as well as working on a custom isolation sand box.

The Creek might be a doable idea, but I gotta look into the pocket book for the next month ( about to go on possible costly business/vacation trip ), but that price is much appreciated deal for me.

How is the AR table and the Nagaoka treating you? What's the VTF for the nag and what's the mass on your arm?

[poppachubby]

The table is an Ariston. The VTF would be 1.5 - 2.0. I am switching arms from a Pioneer PL-41 to a Moth MKI. The Moth is a rebadged, OEM Rega RB-251. It's mass is 11g while the Pioneer is ultra light at 8g.

I still have to mount it.

[frenchmon]

Congrats on the new cart Enochrome! And thaks for the pics and review.