LP cleaner

[92135011]

I'm asking about those nitty gritty things. What are they exactly?
Is it just a vacuum with a rotary platform?
I think that they are sorta expensive...you guys think it would be possible for me to connect a vacuum cleaner to the end of a box with a rotary platform? Would the vacuum power be too strong? will that damage my records?

[RGA]

I'm asking about those nitty gritty things. What are they exactly?
Is it just a vacuum with a rotary platform?
I think that they are sorta expensive...you guys think it would be possible for me to connect a vacuum cleaner to the end of a box with a rotary platform? Would the vacuum power be too strong? will that damage my records?

Really I personally think they're a scam at least for the money. I remember reading that Rega believes you should never clean LP's. Can't find it on their site. Why not use some cleaning solution and a silk cloth(or the kind you clean the lenses of glasses).

[92135011]

Is that it? cleaner and wipe will do the job?
My old man can get a hold of disposable lens wipes for free.
All I need is the solution? What brand is good? I just started spinning only a couple weeks ago and its great...except that some of the lps have oil residue and small specks of dust that I just cant get out with the brush.

[Sealed]

I own a Nitty Gritty 1.0 machine for $253

It is essentially a wet-vac for records. You place cleaning solution on the vacuum slot brush, and a manual brush. Rotate the record with a great deal of fluid. Flip the record, repeat. Then you spin the record across the vacuum, and it cleans off the fluid and dirt.

I hand clean first, but the machine extracts the junk from the deep grooves that hand cleaning doesn't.

I will not buy cleaning fluid from NG or anyone else.

I make my own:

4 parts distilled water
1 part alcohol
1 pin drop of dishwashing liquid to break the surface tension.

There is a night and day improvement with the N-G machine, or a VPI for that matter. I have gone through 200 lp's with this, and I have 100% poof to myself, and all of my friends that the machine is completely effective and totally useful. Hand cleaning did remove about 80% of noise and contaminates, but the machine clean really opened up the detail, treble and other fine points. This is about the farthest thing from a scam there is.

NOT to clean records is complete rubbish. That is the worst advice I have ever heard in my life. You do NOT want contaminates built up and ground in. Contaminates make noise at the least, or dull the sound, and can damage the record and stylus.

CLEAN those records.

[rb122]

I own a Nitty Gritty 1.0 machine for $253

It is essentially a wet-vac for records. You place cleaning solution on the vacuum slot brush, and a manual brush. Rotate the record with a great deal of fluid. Flip the record, repeat. Then you spin the record across the vacuum, and it cleans off the fluid and dirt.

I hand clean first, but the machine extracts the junk from the deep grooves that hand cleaning doesn't.

I will not buy cleaning fluid from NG or anyone else.

I make my own:

4 parts distilled water
1 part alcohol
1 pin drop of dishwashing liquid to break the surface tension.

There is a night and day improvement with the N-G machine, or a VPI for that matter. I have gone through 200 lp's with this, and I have 100% poof to myself, and all of my friends that the machine is completely effective and totally useful. Hand cleaning did remove about 80% of noise and contaminates, but the machine clean really opened up the detail, treble and other fine points. This is about the farthest thing from a scam there is.

NOT to clean records is complete rubbish. That is the worst advice I have ever heard in my life. You do NOT want contaminates built up and ground in. Contaminates make noise at the least, or dull the sound, and can damage the record and stylus.

CLEAN those records.

Agree completely.

Rega believes that the stylus will push away dust while the record is playing. As far as I'm aware, they are the only turntable/arm/cartridge manufacturer that is in left field on this issue. They also believe that an arm should not have VTA adjustment features but instead the cartridge should be properly mated to the arm... which is why Rega cartridges fit the Rega arms so well. They believe VTA adjustability sacrifices rigidity. In other words, they have some screwy ideas about analog playback, particularly for a company that specializes in it. But you have to admire them for sticking to their guns. They make neither a VTA adjustable arm nor a record cleaning machine. They waited several years before introducing a CD player. At least they have their integrity.

[Sealed]

Agree completely.

Rega believes that the stylus will push away dust while the record is playing. As far as I'm aware, they are the only turntable/arm/cartridge manufacturer that is in left field on this issue. They also believe that an arm should not have VTA adjustment features but instead the cartridge should be properly mated to the arm... which is why Rega cartridges fit the Rega arms so well. They believe VTA adjustability sacrifices rigidity. In other words, they have some screwy ideas about analog playback, particularly for a company that specializes in it. But you have to admire them for sticking to their guns. They make neither a VTA adjustable arm nor a record cleaning machine. They waited several years before introducing a CD player. At least they have their integrity.

Rega knows what they are doing when it comes to analog. Even the P-2 is a cracking good little deck, the P-3 with the right bits is just top shelf.

But for them to claim the stylus moves dust (like a snow plow?) is irresponsible! :mad:

Dust, dirt and contaminates are like microscopic boulders, sandpaper if you will that fills in microgrooves like landfill. The stylus rides over gravel it's like running your car on it's rims alone.

The audible effects of cleaning is incredible! Getting rid of noise is only part of it. If the contaminates are so small they are in the grooves, the stylus can't just plow them out. this increases friction and wear of both Lp and stylus---simple physical mechanics.

Does shovelling the sidewalk free of snow clean sand out of cracks? NO WAY!

A proper hand cleaning with generous fluid and a machine clean is a tried and true method, and will allow the best possible listening experiance.

I suppose by Rega's statement, the laser pickup simply "burns away" grease and fingerprints when it reads a cd...oooh! Self cleaning Lp's and cd's!!!! NOT. :p

[Jimmy C]

...yeah, they are essential to getting all the dirt out of the grooves. Before I bought mine (the cheapie 1.0) I was using myriad other cleaning kits. None of the cleaning systems came close to the reduction in surface noise that a wet-vac can do.

I couldn't see spending 2x or 3x as much for a V.P.I... admittedly, they are a better machine, but I think I'm getting a pretty good percentage of the overall performance. Audio Advisor (IIRC) sells a smaller, revamped N.G. for under $200.

NOT cleaning records is rediculous.

Can you make your own? Err... maybe, but I would be willing to bet it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Maybe you can find one on eBay, or the like.

You will hear a big difference, I would save if necessary.

[92135011]

from the looks of it, the nitty gritty seems to just be a box with a slit that has a vacuum underneath. I could buy those vacuum slot brushes from them and the rest I could make myself. Then make a place that the vacuum cleaner could attach every time I wanted to clean. Except, Im almost certain that my vacuum cleaner is much more powerful than that of the nitty gritty. Would that damage anything?

[Sealed]

...yeah, they are essential to getting all the dirt out of the grooves. Before I bought mine (the cheapie 1.0) I was using myriad other cleaning kits. None of the cleaning systems came close to the reduction in surface noise that a wet-vac can do.

I couldn't see spending 2x or 3x as much for a V.P.I... admittedly, they are a better machine, but I think I'm getting a pretty good percentage of the overall performance. Audio Advisor (IIRC) sells a smaller, revamped N.G. for under $200.

NOT cleaning records is rediculous.

Can you make your own? Err... maybe, but I would be willing to bet it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Maybe you can find one on eBay, or the like.

You will hear a big difference, I would save if necessary.

The automatic NG and VPI are nice luxury items. I suppose if I had hundreds, or thousands more LP's, the auto feature would save a lot of time. I can't justify an automatic machine, based on the manual cleaning, and the superb job the NG 1.0 does.

I think a simple vacuum assembly in a box could be made if you are so inclined. Ideally, I'd like something that evenly cleans and vacuums both sides at once.

[RGA]

from the looks of it, the nitty gritty seems to just be a box with a slit that has a vacuum underneath. I could buy those vacuum slot brushes from them and the rest I could make myself. Then make a place that the vacuum cleaner could attach every time I wanted to clean. Except, Im almost certain that my vacuum cleaner is much more powerful than that of the nitty gritty. Would that damage anything?

I'm going with Rega on this one. The sound on vinyl is on the sides right - so whether there is a bit of dirt the tip of the stylus is never going to touch it anyway...at least that was Rega's thinking if memory serves. Surface dust would be picked up by the tylus - then you blow it off the stylus. I believe Rega dislikes leaving ANY chemical contaminant on the vinyl which every cleaning agent even relatively benign ones will do.

I suppose if you're buying LPs from Garage sales the machine would help but i tried it at soundhounds before and ater and it made no difference to the sound.

I doubt they hurt anything but they are certainly a complete rippoff price wise costing more than the Rega 2 or 3??? If yo insist on them that's fine I'm not saying they don't work or can't work...my experience is far smaller than people on this forum but then check out UHF magazine. They had a way to build the machine for cheap that supposedly is as good as the best rigs out there. It was issue 58 "Build your own machines to clean LP's." Still I think it runs a couple of hundred Canadian. If you want to reduce static use non cented Bounce Dryer sheets.

And I would not dismiss Rega's view out of hand...they probably make the best rigs for the money going. Maybe Rega is simply not out to hose people with unecessary gadgets - green pens anyone?

[DMK]

I'm going with Rega on this one. The sound on vinyl is on the sides right - so whether there is a bit of dirt the tip of the stylus is never going to touch it anyway...at least that was Rega's thinking if memory serves. Surface dust would be picked up by the tylus - then you blow it off the stylus. I believe Rega dislikes leaving ANY chemical contaminant on the vinyl which every cleaning agent even relatively benign ones will do.

I suppose if you're buying LPs from Garage sales the machine would help but i tried it at soundhounds before and ater and it made no difference to the sound.

I doubt they hurt anything but they are certainly a complete rippoff price wise costing more than the Rega 2 or 3??? If yo insist on them that's fine I'm not saying they don't work or can't work...my experience is far smaller than people on this forum but then check out UHF magazine. They had a way to build the machine for cheap that supposedly is as good as the best rigs out there. It was issue 58 "Build your own machines to clean LP's." Still I think it runs a couple of hundred Canadian. If you want to reduce static use non cented Bounce Dryer sheets.

And I would not dismiss Rega's view out of hand...they probably make the best rigs for the money going. Maybe Rega is simply not out to hose people with unecessary gadgets - green pens anyone?

The vacuum machines won't always make a noticeable difference on every LP each and every time. But if you want to keep your records in pristine condition over time, a vacuum machine is essential. And the Record Doctor is hundreds less than a P2. They do get expensive if you want additional convenience such as the Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro 2 that I use. It cleans both sides of the LP at once but it doesn't clean any better than the Record Doctor - just faster.

As Sealed said, microscopic dust and dirt gets in the grooves and then is fused to the soft vinyl by the very hard stylus. Simple physics. If you don't get all of that dirt out, over time you'll get those horrid clicks and pops we dislike so much as tiny pieces of vinyl are essentially eroded. I own hundreds of LP's that I've had for many years and they are pristine sounding and I've brought previously believed dead records back to life, thanks to a regular cleaning regimen that includes a vac. I swear by it. I'd go further and say that anyone not using one regularly is doing their vinyl (and their ears!) a grave disservice. Ask around; nobody but Rega believes the theory that all the dust is picked up by the stylus and LP's don't need cleaning. Your idea of leaving contaminants on the record is precisely the reason (well, one of many) why the cleaning solution needs to be vacuumed off rather than wiped off. But I also have no doubt that if one were handy they could probably build a vacuum machine for much less.

[Woochifer]

The Nitty Gritty's a LOT more than just a vacuum! As others have pointed out, the main reason for having a wet-vac for your LPs is to basically maintain your albums in pristine condition. Some vinyl addicts that I know choose to play back their LPs without a dust cover on the turntable because in their opinion, static builds up quicker with the dust cover present. For them, the wet-vac is an essential part of their basic maintenance regimen.

I'm not sure that you need a full blown wet-vac like a Nitty Gritty, but it definitely is effective if you're absolutely obsessive about maintaining your LPs in top condition. A wet-vac will not magically resurrect worn records or abused used LPs with embedded gunk, but they will at least keep them from getting worse.

Whether or not it's worth the price is entirely up to you. My cleaning regimen is pretty simple -- with new or used LPs that I'm playing back for the first time, I use a Discwasher D4 to do a simple first pass that gets rid of any oily surface contaminants. Thereafter, I use a carbon fiber brush before every playback. I only go beyond this with the rarest albums in my collection (i.e. half-speed masters and direct discs), where I'll take them to a local record store that has a cleaning machine and pay them to do some deep cleaning. In the past, I've used the LAST record preservatives (it really works at reducing surface noise) and their deep cleaning solution.

[Woochifer]

Really I personally think they're a scam at least for the money. I remember reading that Rega believes you should never clean LP's. Can't find it on their site. Why not use some cleaning solution and a silk cloth(or the kind you clean the lenses of glasses).

If they really believe this, then they're going against basically the entire vinyl community. I don't know anyone who recommends against cleaning their LPs. Just letting things go is the quickest way to prematurely wear down an LP. The main reason I would not go along with this is because even brand new LPs have surface contaminants that are leftover from the manufacturing process. These oily substances attract dirt, and while Rega might believe that a stylus can by itself clean a vinyl record (and in my experience that is nonsense), that same stylus can just as easily embed dirt and dust into the groove. Once those contaminants are embedded into the grooves, then they are very difficult to remove.

Believe me, you DO NOT want to use a cleaning cloth to wipe your LPs. Back when the LP was the dominant format, cleaning cloths were indeed sold at mass market stores (and usually shunned by hi-fi specialty stores), but they did not work at all. They did a great job at pushing dirt around, but they did an equally good job at pressing gunk deep into the grooves and adding their own noise into the mix. A cloth cleaning rag like what gets used for eyeglasses will also deposit its own fibers and dust into grooves. And I've had LPs ruined after cleaning passes using cloths like that.


I suppose if you're buying LPs from Garage sales the machine would help but i tried it at soundhounds before and ater and it made no difference to the sound.

You got it reverse. A wet-vac like the Nitty Gritty is the best tool for maintaining an LP in mint condition. Things like normal wear, damage caused by worn or misaligned needles, deeply embedded dirt, etc. cannot be undone by anything. What a wet-vac will do is wash away the oily contaminants that attract and trap dirt, and basically keep an LP is near new condition. A couple of the high end stores that I used to frequent had half-speed master and direct disc LPs that they demoed constantly. Even after hundreds of playbacks, those demo LPs showed minimal surface noise because they were good pressings to begin with, and they were cleaned regularly. For dirty used LPs, a record vacuum will help eliminate a lot of the surface dirt but not necessarily the deeply embedded stuff; and while it probably won't affect the pops and clicks too much, it can lower the surface noise and take out a lot of the gunk that can prematurely wear down a stylus.

If you play back your LPs on a turntable with no dust cover (to reduce static accumulation), a record cleaning machine warrants stronger consideration than if you use a dust cover and are diligent about how you handle the LPs. A carbon fiber brush is good enough for most cleaning chores if you take reasonably good care of your LPs.


If you want to reduce static use non cented Bounce Dryer sheets.

Have you actually tried this before? Bounce sheets have waxy substances on the surface that are heat activated, and the sheets themselves are pretty abrasive (at least compared to softer cloths). Rubbing that on an LP would embed all kinds of residues and fibers into the grooves.



And I would not dismiss Rega's view out of hand...they probably make the best rigs for the money going. Maybe Rega is simply not out to hose people with unecessary gadgets - green pens anyone?

Or maybe they just got it wrong. Comparing record cleaning machines to green pens is ridiculous because products like the Nitty Gritty do exactly what they their manufacturers say they do (whether or not they're overpriced is another discussion altogether), and green pens are nothing more than subjectivist delusion.

[92135011]

Sealed,
you mentioned that you made your own cleaning solution.
What kind of alcohol you use? just the normal rubbing alcohol? or do you have to go out and buy some special kind?

Looks like UHF 58 does have detailed instructions on how to make your own cleaning machine except that I would have to actually buy that issue....

[RGA]

If you play back your LPs on a turntable with no dust cover (to reduce static accumulation), a record cleaning machine warrants stronger consideration than if you use a dust cover and are diligent about how you handle the LPs. A carbon fiber brush is good enough for most cleaning chores if you take reasonably good care of your LPs.

Agreed...not even sure Rega likes the brush...I notice I could not find any of their statements on these issues on their site - hmm. I also notice that their firm belief in glass platters is no more. My Nad and the Rega 2 are MDF. SO maybe they changed their mind.



Have you actually tried this before? Bounce sheets have waxy substances on the surface that are heat activated, and the sheets themselves are pretty abrasive (at least compared to softer cloths). Rubbing that on an LP would embed all kinds of residues and fibers into the grooves.

Not rubbing it on the disc...keeping it near you collection...of records...not touching the actual LP. Supposedly to get rid of static.



Or maybe they just got it wrong.

Or maybe they got it right - maybe the subjective delusion is everyone buying these machines. After all some of us think Separates and Integrateds are much superior amplifiers than are receivers. Hmm...delusion is subjective it would appear.

[Sealed]

I'm going with Rega on this one.
--That's idiotic. I can tell you have very little vinyl experiance. Dirt and contaminates get into cracks, that means the stylus cannot read it! The sound is veiled, and the record sounds worse. Rega is on crack with this line. Good thing that I live near them, I am calling them when they open today. This is the singular. most retarded, msiguided, idiotic, foolish and plain dumb advice I have ever read in my entire life on this site, or anywhere else.

And I would not dismiss Rega's view out of hand...they probably make the best rigs for the money going. Maybe Rega is simply not out to hose people with unecessary gadgets - green pens anyone?

You have too much blind faith in Rega. They make a good product, sure. They aren't the best, and they do have competition in music hall and project and others. I TOTALLY DISMISS REGAS IDEA ON NON CLEANING RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. IT IS COMPLETELY AS WRONG AS BEASTIALITY!

That's melodramatic sure, but Regas philosophy is DEAD wrong.

I heave reason to believe RGA, that parts of your post are dubious at best for the sake of argument. I have owned an NG-1.0 for months now. On records that are salvageable, it make a HUGE difference in sound. I find it dubious that you just-now-so-happen-to-own a nitty gritty, tried it extensively and it had no effect. Rega is the lone voice on the entire planet on this issue. And they are wrong.

[Sealed]

The vacuum machines won't always make a noticeable difference on every LP each and every time. But if you want to keep your records in pristine condition over time, a vacuum machine is essential. And the Record Doctor is hundreds less than a P2. They do get expensive if you want additional convenience such as the Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro 2 that I use. It cleans both sides of the LP at once but it doesn't clean any better than the Record Doctor - just faster.

As Sealed said, microscopic dust and dirt gets in the grooves and then is fused to the soft vinyl by the very hard stylus. Simple physics.
--True, preventative cleaning amelorates this and helps keep the LP clean and quiet for years.

If you don't get all of that dirt out, over time you'll get those horrid clicks and pops we dislike so much as tiny pieces of vinyl are essentially eroded. I own hundreds of LP's that I've had for many years and they are pristine sounding and I've brought previously believed dead records back to life, thanks to a regular cleaning regimen that includes a vac. I swear by it. I'd go further and say that anyone not using one regularly is doing their vinyl (and their ears!) a grave disservice. Ask around; nobody but Rega believes the theory that all the dust is picked up by the stylus and LP's don't need cleaning. Your idea of leaving contaminants on the record is precisely the reason (well, one of many) why the cleaning solution needs to be vacuumed off rather than wiped off. But I also have no doubt that if one were handy they could probably build a vacuum machine for much less.

Regas philosophy on this is completely wrong. Not cleaning an Lp is wrong. Sure, I have a few lp's that are old that never got cleaned, the clicks and pops remain, as well as a few crackles. But I have some recordings from 1957 that were kept clean, and the meager amount of dust on it (due to the fact it was rarely if ever played dirty) was removed in cleaning.

By regas philosophy, the record will wear faster, the dirt will get ground in faster, and the sound will deteriorate.

[Sealed]

Sealed,
you mentioned that you made your own cleaning solution.
What kind of alcohol you use? just the normal rubbing alcohol? or do you have to go out and buy some special kind?

Looks like UHF 58 does have detailed instructions on how to make your own cleaning machine except that I would have to actually buy that issue....

I use denatured alcohol off the shelf. I have almost pure (90% +) pharmicuitical grade that I use to clean contacts and circuit boards. This is overkill though, and expensive.

[92135011]

"denatured" alcohol???
Whats that? I have never heard of it before. Sounds like something that WOULD be drinkable but then someone screwed up and it can kill people now. Where would I be able to get this stuff?

[Sealed]

"denatured" alcohol???
Whats that? I have never heard of it before. Sounds like something that WOULD be drinkable but then someone screwed up and it can kill people now. Where would I be able to get this stuff?

This alcohol is made from wood, not grains. It is toxic to drink, anyone that does has a seriious death wish. This stuff is available at any general store. Rubbing alcohol works fine.

[DMK]

Regas philosophy on this is completely wrong. Not cleaning an Lp is wrong. Sure, I have a few lp's that are old that never got cleaned, the clicks and pops remain, as well as a few crackles. But I have some recordings from 1957 that were kept clean, and the meager amount of dust on it (due to the fact it was rarely if ever played dirty) was removed in cleaning.

By regas philosophy, the record will wear faster, the dirt will get ground in faster, and the sound will deteriorate.

The fastest way to ruin a record is not to clean it. The best way to clean it is with a vacuum machine. The Disc Doctor solution and brushes is supposed to do a good job but I found it a sloppy mess to deal with.

Some years ago I bought a batch of old Duke Ellington records on RCA from the 1950's. They had a lot of static and clicks/pops. With my cleaning regimen, I reduced the static significantly. But the problem is the clicks and pops. Once they're in, they're in. A vac is the absolute best way to keep them out. On the flip side (pun intended), I have records that have been played hundreds of times with no easily audible degradation. Yes, I'm anal about record care. It's necessary in order for vinyl to maintain its crown as THE superior home playback medium.

[Jimmy C]

I'm going with Rega on this one. The sound on vinyl is on the sides right - so whether there is a bit of dirt the tip of the stylus is never going to touch it anyway...at least that was Rega's thinking if memory serves. Surface dust would be picked up by the tylus - then you blow it off the stylus. I believe Rega dislikes leaving ANY chemical contaminant on the vinyl which every cleaning agent even relatively benign ones will do.

I suppose if you're buying LPs from Garage sales the machine would help but i tried it at soundhounds before and ater and it made no difference to the sound.

I doubt they hurt anything but they are certainly a complete rippoff price wise costing more than the Rega 2 or 3??? If yo insist on them that's fine I'm not saying they don't work or can't work...my experience is far smaller than people on this forum but then check out UHF magazine. They had a way to build the machine for cheap that supposedly is as good as the best rigs out there. It was issue 58 "Build your own machines to clean LP's." Still I think it runs a couple of hundred Canadian. If you want to reduce static use non cented Bounce Dryer sheets.

And I would not dismiss Rega's view out of hand...they probably make the best rigs for the money going. Maybe Rega is simply not out to hose people with unecessary gadgets - green pens anyone?

Your "going with Rega on this one" has more to do with A.N.'s loose affiliation with Rega, rather than actual experience :*)

Maybe there is a misunderstanding... I have not read all the posts, but I don't think anyone here would recommend the N.G. wet-vac EVERYTIME you spin the record - not necessary. BUT - many of us get our LPs through record stores, and, for obvious reasons, they can't clean every album... some of them have a lot of dust/greasy fingerprints on them. None of this is beneficial to a cart - which, by the way, reads the sides of the groove, not the very bottom.

Now - your experience at Soundhounds... maybe that particular record was already fairly clean... no need for the wet system - a simple carbon fiber brush from AudioQuest (or possibly nothing at all) will be fine. There is no reason to have the needle push around dirt... unless you want to hear excessive clicks and pops.

I have LPs that are over 30 years old, and I have been cleaning them for almost 25 years - they are still in excellent condition. Again... no need to play dirty records.

P.S. - By the way... what ever happened to the Boston A-150s? Were they the original series?

P.S.S. - I hate the way the entire previous message body is repeated...

[Woochifer]

Agreed...not even sure Rega likes the brush...I notice I could not find any of their statements on these issues on their site - hmm. I also notice that their firm belief in glass platters is no more. My Nad and the Rega 2 are MDF. SO maybe they changed their mind.

I have a very hard time believing that Rega would recommend just letting albums go because any surface contaminants can easily get permanently embedded into the grooves if you just play them as is over and over. With a typical stylus force of 1.5 grams, that's still a lot of weight getting directed into a small point. With a pliable surface like an LP and all the narrow crevices cut into that groove, that kind of mass can basically easily wedge all that dirt sitting on the surface deep into the record itself.


Not rubbing it on the disc...keeping it near you collection...of records...not touching the actual LP. Supposedly to get rid of static.

Thanks for clarifying. It just seemed odd to use a Bounce sheet for cleaning purposes. Plenty of other anti-static options out there for record storage, including anti-static sleeves. Would seem more effective given that those have the added benefit of being less abrasive than normal paper sleeves.


Or maybe they got it right - maybe the subjective delusion is everyone buying these machines. After all some of us think Separates and Integrateds are much superior amplifiers than are receivers. Hmm...delusion is subjective it would appear.

Do you really think that they are right just because they say so? (And given that you haven't found this info on their website, I'm not so sure that they would make that kind of recommendation in the first place.) There are definite differences between albums that are cleaned regularly and those that are not, and the difference is most notable when you get into the rhelm of repeated listenings. Albums that have been regularly cleaned generally have lower surface noise and fewer pops and clicks develop, than those albums that have let dust accumulate without cleaning. I don't see how that's delusional or subjective, because the benefits of regular cleaning can be proven.

If Rega thinks that the function of a stylus is to push dust around, then they really need to do more listening. When a stylus accumulates gunk on the tip, that leads to distortion, break ups in the highs, and other audible changes to the tonal characteristics.

[RGA]

Wooch just stating what they said...you say they are wrong fine - I mean they only make some of the best budget tables going - so naturally they know nothing about LP care? If there is proof other than lots of claims great. Lots of people make claims about cables and amplifiers too...you seem to pick only what you wish to. Any opinion different from yours is wrong - well other people have different experiences.

Never said it couldn't work...just didn't in my ONE case - which I already said was perhaps irrelevant. I stand by the fact that $800.00Cdn for the machine is an utter rippoff whether it cleans both sized and makes you coffee or not. If people are going to get one then make it. Let us not support the rippoff artists selling $30.00 worth of low suction Vacuum cleaning. I buy my LP's from a used record store - one of the more impressive ones around(there are actually two gigantic ones on the same street). I don't know what people do with their records but in two years I have not needed to clean a single one - except one that Soundhounds cleaned...visibly it looked great still had the clicks pops galore(could have been a bad disc(Enya - Orinoco Flow album). I had people saying you should clean a brand new LP as well. Well I have bought several and that's as bogus as a three dollar coin.

Nitty Gritty - looks cheaply built - if the price matches it might be a good deal. I should think the manual one should be well under $100.00Cdn. Somehow, I doubt it.


Jimmy C

Audio Note's assessment I don't know - the only affiliation is getting Rega Arms upgraded. I believe there are a few out there utilizing the Rega arms.

[DMK]

- I mean they only make some of the best budget tables going - so naturally they know nothing about LP care? .

Yeah, that's what's so bizarre about their statement! They do make some of the best budget tables around and my jaw hit the floor when I read their idea of LP "cleaning". It's like Chevy saying there's no need to change your oil because the occasional addition of a quart of new oil will absorb the impurities of the old. Weird! But Rega doesn't believe in adjustable VTA or any other arm adjustment, either. But in another sense, all of this fits into their "plug and play" philosophy - nothing more difficult than it needs to be. And as I said, their integrity can't be faulted even if their idealism doesn't coincide with reality.

BTW, looks are obviously deceiving with the Nitty Gritty. Mine is going on five years old and has never broken down or failed to properly do its job. I can appreciate that you think it's a ripoff because it is expensive but it's paid for itself many times over for me. There's little else in this world that I'm able to say that about.

[Woochifer]

Wooch just stating what they said...you say they are wrong fine - I mean they only make some of the best budget tables going - so naturally they know nothing about LP care? If there is proof other than lots of claims great. Lots of people make claims about cables and amplifiers too...you seem to pick only what you wish to. Any opinion different from yours is wrong - well other people have different experiences.

No one's denying that Rega makes fine turntables and tonearms. If true (and again, I have my doubts about this), then their claim about record cleaning is pretty much a lone voice in the entire audio community. But, considering your limited experience with the vinyl format, you might want to also pay attention to the many voices on this thread who have had many years of experience dealing with the peculiarities of vinyl. Nobody else who's responded agrees with this assertion, so that should at least tell you something.

There's plenty of disagreement about how frequently you need to clean records and the best method of doing so, but I've never met anyone who advocates letting records accumulate dust and dirt without any kind of cleaning whatsoever. If you want to blindly follow this advice, then you're more than welcome to. But, if your prized records deteriorate prematurely, then you'll have your answer as to who was right.

I pick on your comparisons because you fail to see how one claim (about record cleaning) can be reliably proven, while the other (regarding amps, cables, and green pens) cannot. Claims about cables and amps cannot be reliably proven because you have no consistently replicatable basis of comparison other than first person real time impressions that rely on differing degrees of auditory memory, which can always be disputed. If you want to gauge the effects of record cleaning, it's easy to prove because the effects can be reliably replicated. You just do a reference recording of two brand new LPs (dubbing onto tape or digital format), let one collect dust and subject the other one to a diligent cleaning regimen. Give both LPs an equal number of playbacks on the same turntable, and then do a second reference recording of each LP. Comparing the reference recordings, whether that be through listening or measuring, will give you a very accurate before and after picture. I have over 100 tape recordings of LPs that I dubbed when they were brand new, and just comparing the change in surface noise of the albums that I diligently cared for versus those that I neglected is plenty striking.


Never said it couldn't work...just didn't in my ONE case - which I already said was perhaps irrelevant. I stand by the fact that $800.00Cdn for the machine is an utter rippoff whether it cleans both sized and makes you coffee or not. If people are going to get one then make it. Let us not support the rippoff artists selling $30.00 worth of low suction Vacuum cleaning. I buy my LP's from a used record store - one of the more impressive ones around(there are actually two gigantic ones on the same street). I don't know what people do with their records but in two years I have not needed to clean a single one - except one that Soundhounds cleaned...visibly it looked great still had the clicks pops galore(could have been a bad disc(Enya - Orinoco Flow album). I had people saying you should clean a brand new LP as well. Well I have bought several and that's as bogus as a three dollar coin.

How's cleaning new LPs advice bogus? Check the manufacturing process on a vinyl record. The process leaves residues that attract and trap dirt. The reasons for cleaning a brand new LP are the same reasons why you shouldn't leave fingerprints on your albums. Plus, with a lot of albums, they're not exactly clean when you pull them out of the sleeve for the first time. Your points seem to ignore what several of the other posts on this thread have repeatedly stated -- a record cleaner DOES NOT undo wear and damage already done to an LP. What it DOES do is MAINTAIN an album in pristine (or existing) condition, and clean up the kinds of gunk that can prematurely wear down a stylus and change the tonal characteristics of the LP playback (something as simple as accumulation at the tip of the stylus changes its shape and mass, which fundamentally affects its capabilities).

You also need to consider how often an album gets played back. Like I said, the high end store where my friend used to work had a collection of direct discs and half-speed masters that they played constantly. Even after hundreds of playbacks on turntables with no dust covers, those albums were still just as silent as when they were first opened because the store did a wet-vac pass before every playback. Diligent cleaning (and a properly setup turntable) is the ONLY way that you can maintain an album that gets played that often. If you've never cleaned a new album before, then you have absolutely no basis for saying that advice is "bogus as a three dollar coin." I suppose if you only play an album once every other month or so, then cleaning might not make a difference, but if you're at all serious about vinyl and use that as the primary playback medium for your most frequently played music, then I don't see how you can believe that there's no difference between albums that get no cleaning versus those that get diligent cleaning.

And how's it a "FACT" that a record vac is a ripoff? That's just your opinion and nothing more. And where do you come up with this notion of $30 worth of vacuum? Is it a fact that you can backup, or just rhetorical fiction?

[Woochifer]

Yeah, that's what's so bizarre about their statement! They do make some of the best budget tables around and my jaw hit the floor when I read their idea of LP "cleaning". It's like Chevy saying there's no need to change your oil because the occasional addition of a quart of new oil will absorb the impurities of the old. Weird! But Rega doesn't believe in adjustable VTA or any other arm adjustment, either. But in another sense, all of this fits into their "plug and play" philosophy - nothing more difficult than it needs to be. And as I said, their integrity can't be faulted even if their idealism doesn't coincide with reality.

Well, variable VTA versus fixed VTA at least is something where you got plenty of advocates on both sides. My turntable has a headshell with an adjustable VTA, but the manufacturer also sells a fixed angle headshell for those who prefer that approach.

I've never encountered anybody who says that letting albums collect dust is preferable to cleaning them, and that a stylus pushing dust around the grooves is the best way to maintain an album (I mean, when you get enough dust accumulation on the stylus, it creates all kinds of distortion, sibilance, and other abnormalities). There's plenty of disagreement over how often you should do it, or how you should do it, but my impression's always been near universal consensus that cleaning at some level is needed to maintain LPs, especially ones that are played frequently. Over the years I've used the Allsop Orbitrac, Discwasher D4, and Nitty Gritty and Keith Monks record vacs. Nowadays, I mostly just use a carbon fiber brush (partly because cleaners like the D4 really wear down turntable belts, and those are not always easy to replace).

[hifitommy]

for the record, let me say that i am pro RCM but use sink methods (search these methods and others at audioasylum.com in the vinyl asylum).

the brush i recommend at this time is this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/296270.html (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/296270.html)

search those archives! vaccing the disc after washing and rinse rinse rinsing is a great idea. yeah, i invented a phrase again.

this brush is cheeeeep and really gets into the grooves and theses no doubt that youre in the groove.

no alcohol, and plain old paper towels to dry. but rinse rinse rinsing is a key. i use the sink sprayer and make one hell of a mess but its worth it.

maybe i will repair/modify my record dr II which self destructed its own fan impellers (the bastids want $100 to fixit, NOPE! and the damn thing is put together with GLUE so you CANT fixit urself). i'll just drill a big hole for an outboard vac and put a piece of plexi or masonite on the bottom i bashed in to find out what went wrong.

i truly would benefit from a good working rcm as i have about 5k LPs, and i am NOT gonna stop.

[Sealed]

for the record, let me say that i am pro RCM but use sink methods (search these methods and others at audioasylum.com in the vinyl asylum).

the brush i recommend at this time is this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/296270.html (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/296270.html)

search those archives! vaccing the disc after washing and rinse rinse rinsing is a great idea. yeah, i invented a phrase again.

this brush is cheeeeep and really gets into the grooves and theses no doubt that youre in the groove.

no alcohol, and plain old paper towels to dry. but rinse rinse rinsing is a key. i use the sink sprayer and make one hell of a mess but its worth it.

maybe i will repair/modify my record dr II which self destructed its own fan impellers (the bastids want $100 to fixit, NOPE! and the damn thing is put together with GLUE so you CANT fixit urself). i'll just drill a big hole for an outboard vac and put a piece of plexi or masonite on the bottom i bashed in to find out what went wrong.

i truly would benefit from a good working rcm as i have about 5k LPs, and i am NOT gonna stop.

I think the key here is NO, you need not clean an LP each and every time before play, but yes, it should be cleaned.

BTW: how do you use a sink sprayer and not soak the lable?

I prefer using alcohol as it is a mild solvent, but it is more necessary during an initial deep clean than subsequent cleanings.

"Wash, rinse, repeat"

[hifitommy]

just when its needed. routine daily use, just before playing a record, a carbon fiber brush such as the aq should be used to remove the light dust. i usually brush it about 2-3 times, dragging the brush off the edge of the record so as not to leave a line of dust.

believe it ro not, MOST labels are impervious to the water. in the last five years at least, i can remember only one label being affected. i wouldnt be such a proponent of sink cleaning if my experience were otherwise. the pressure of the sink sprayer removes more of the dawn (a tiny drop for both sides, thats plenty) i use with the clothing brush and water.

if, during the drying the record with a paper towel, there is ANY sign of sudsing, the rinse rinse rinsing commences again.

[DMK]

Well, variable VTA versus fixed VTA at least is something where you got plenty of advocates on both sides. My turntable has a headshell with an adjustable VTA, but the manufacturer also sells a fixed angle headshell for those who prefer that approach. ).

It depends on the cartridge and arm - and the listener's ears. Rega cartridges are maximized for Rega arms, of course, and VTA will likely not change the sound. So as I said, they are true to their beliefs. But in many, many applications, no one can argue that VTA adjustment changes the sound of the cartridge. It's up to the listener as to what setting sounds best.

Rega arms are excellent for the money but I doubt anyone would call them the best available. And I can't off the top of my head think of another arm that doesn't have VTA adjustability so while it's true that there are advocates both ways, the consensus of most manufacturers is to offer adjustability. But I find no fault with Rega's approach - particularly since that's the arm I use! OTOH, my Kontrapunkt is screaming for some adjustment and I'm looking very seriously at the Morch DP-6 tonearm. After all, user replaceable armwands means I can easily play with several cartridges at one time! I'm thinking about trying to find a used Shelter and also getting the mothballs off my old Clearaudio Virtuoso.

As for your reply to RGA...well... nothing more needs to be said except I have yet to find one person who has maximized their vinyl playback rig that prefers CD. Maximizing vinyl playback includes LP cleaning.

[RGA]

And how's it a "FACT" that a record vac is a ripoff? That's just your opinion and nothing more. And where do you come up with this notion of $30 worth of vacuum? Is it a fact that you can backup, or just rhetorical fiction?

No the guy who sells then took it apart the parts are under $30.00 and he claimed would take less than an hour for one person to build. (a Manual deivce). Man you must think all items have a 4% mark-up. If it's being sold and it's not marked up 100% AT LEAST from manufacturer to retailer and AGAIN at another 30% AT LEAST from Retailer to Customer then it's bad business. Yes That the $200 Nitty Griity cost the manufactuer $180.00 and the retailer is making $20.00? Dream on.

the UHF issue has a guy who built them and you can too with spare parts you can pick up at a hardware store.

I keep them all in plastic wrap and only buy near mint or better LP's. Perhaps Rega's aguement which is no longer on their site was that if you take care of your discs from day one they should never get to a point where grunge would be an issue and therefore would not need to have a machine applied. I don't know because it's been a long time since I read it (over 2 years ago). But I get mixed messages here. For very light DUST a brush works and rega claimed that playing once through would remove that kind of very light dust. For heavy grunge people here say the cleaner doesn't work ANYWAY. SO we're after something in between which no one can see with the naked eye.

I'll concede that the machine works because people have experience that it does. Get some plastic wraps...good for Baseball card collecing why not vinyl.

Perhaps Rega, and this is my conspiracy theory going, made these comments to help sell turntables. After all LP's are far more of a pain in the ass than CD. So by saying just plug and play and the needle will pick up the dirt makes it SEEM easier for buyers yo get into Vinyl again or for the first time.

I'm skeptical of claims because instead of relying on UHF's sound turntable advice I went with vinyl philes that Cheap turntables are better than ANY CD player. No not so. I suppose if I liked 70s rock my opinion would be different.

[RGA]

just when its needed. routine daily use, just before playing a record, a carbon fiber brush such as the aq should be used to remove the light dust. i usually brush it about 2-3 times, dragging the brush off the edge of the record so as not to leave a line of dust.

believe it ro not, MOST labels are impervious to the water. in the last five years at least, i can remember only one label being affected. i wouldnt be such a proponent of sink cleaning if my experience were otherwise. the pressure of the sink sprayer removes more of the dawn (a tiny drop for both sides, thats plenty) i use with the clothing brush and water.

if, during the drying the record with a paper towel, there is ANY sign of sudsing, the rinse rinse rinsing commences again.

I like that you have come up with a CHEAP alternative - thankfully creativity is not dead. Do you have a cheap vacuum alternative...or do you even feel it's necessary...can you spray out the gunk. You have a kind of High pressure washer idea going here along with dollar store lint brushes. What is all this $3.50 including the claeaning solution. DO you recommend air drying like dishes or hand drying?

[92135011]

that brings up an idea. Instead of sucking the stuff off...is it possible to blow it off?
Such items as an air compressor

[hifitommy]

nevermind.

anyway, using air pressure seems like you could blow abrasive particles accross the surface of the grooves and ostensibly cause damage. EXTRACTING it with a vacuum is more in line with a less damaging scenario. just a lonesome thought.

[Jimmy C]

...you previously stated that a RCM is a ripoff. This may be so, but insane mark-up applies to much of audio. Look at A.N.s top speaker... over $20,000 for a minimally-braced, 8" 2-way! I also remember you saying that it (I think this was the A.N. you were referring to) was the best you have heard, so, therefore it's worth it.

I feel that's what is happening.... I paid $249 for my N.G. 1.0, and feel the sonic benefits are worth it. Geez, that's half the vinyl thing...fun! Scouring a good used record store, finding an an old favorite, cleaning it, etc. Besides, one can afford the RCM when buying $4 LPs...

As far as someone stating a starter table will beat up any CD... well, not sure who told you that. It is VERY software (and equipment) dependant. But, Hell... at least when one goes from a $100 table to a $1000 table, there is a big diff - unlike a similar disparity in CD players, IME.

I'm envisioning my "homebrew" RCM and man, is it cumbersome, half-assed, and ugly...lol.

[Sealed]

...you previously stated that a RCM is a ripoff. This may be so, but insane mark-up applies to much of audio. Look at A.N.s top speaker... over $20,000 for a minimally-braced, 8" 2-way! I also remember you saying that it (I think this was the A.N. you were referring to) was the best you have heard, so, therefore it's worth it.

I feel that's what is happening.... I paid $249 for my N.G. 1.0, and feel the sonic benefits are worth it. Geez, that's half the vinyl thing...fun! Scouring a good used record store, finding an an old favorite, cleaning it, etc. Besides, one can afford the RCM when buying $4 LPs...

As far as someone stating a starter table will beat up any CD... well, not sure who told you that. It is VERY software (and equipment) dependant. But, Hell... at least when one goes from a $100 table to a $1000 table, there is a big diff - unlike a similar disparity in CD players, IME.

I'm envisioning my "homebrew" RCM and man, is it cumbersome, half-assed, and ugly...lol.

I wince at the criminally overpriced products of dubious benefit like $3k cables, $13k mini monitors, $30k cd players...but $253 (my price) for something that lets me listen to music and not dirt? It's WELL worth it.

I met an audio dealer that had things from affordable to "I could buy a house for that much" stuff. He said he'd rather have a decent $700 vinyl rig than any cd player at any price. He had the cd stuff in his shop, but he outright dismissed them in comparision to the Michell orbe, and VPI tables he had.

I have hand-cleaned all my albums then listened. There was still noise evident. After a pass on the N-G 1.0, there was a night and day difference... no if and's or buts. No one can convince me that it isn't extremely effective, and worth the money.

If you are going to do vinyl--do it right. The extra work that vinyl requires is part of what gives it a soul.

Again, this is no different on an absolute scale than keeping cd's free of grease. If it skips...clean it.

[rb122]

[QUOTE=Sealed Again, this is no different on an absolute scale than keeping cd's free of grease. If it skips...clean it.[/QUOTE]

Correct. The only difference is that vinyl requires preventive maintenance. CD's can be cleaned once when they're, say, 10 years old and are restored to their original quality, dubious as that may be.

[hifitommy]

the kabusa.com rcm hooks up to your home shop vac which is way more reliable and replaceable than the $hitigritty units motors. $150 plus your shop vac. a better idea even though it uses NG technology.

rb, CDs are easily cleaned in the sink with a droplet of dawn and water rubbing with your finger center to edge, edge to center while rotating the disc. dry the same way with a towel or paper towel. fingerprints are the most common violator of the surface, people dont seem to think you should wash your hands before handling their CDs as they should and especially important with vinyl records.

[E-Stat]

I've used a VPI HW-16 for over twenty years. It has been virtually trouble free except for needing a new vacuum tube a couple years back as the original finally cracked. I couldn't imagine not having a RCM. Nor could my audio reviewer friends with similar experience. Last night I was spinning the very nicely recorded "ET" soundtrack that I've had for twenty odd years. Still sounds virtually dead quiet despite the fact that I have played the heck out of it.

rw

[Woochifer]

It depends on the cartridge and arm - and the listener's ears. Rega cartridges are maximized for Rega arms, of course, and VTA will likely not change the sound. So as I said, they are true to their beliefs. But in many, many applications, no one can argue that VTA adjustment changes the sound of the cartridge. It's up to the listener as to what setting sounds best.

Rega arms are excellent for the money but I doubt anyone would call them the best available. And I can't off the top of my head think of another arm that doesn't have VTA adjustability so while it's true that there are advocates both ways, the consensus of most manufacturers is to offer adjustability. But I find no fault with Rega's approach - particularly since that's the arm I use! OTOH, my Kontrapunkt is screaming for some adjustment and I'm looking very seriously at the Morch DP-6 tonearm. After all, user replaceable armwands means I can easily play with several cartridges at one time! I'm thinking about trying to find a used Shelter and also getting the mothballs off my old Clearaudio Virtuoso.

I go back and forth on the VTA issue as well. As mentioned, my turntable comes with an adjustable VTA headshell, but a fixed angle headshell is also available. The owner's manual also has a chart with the recommended VTA settings for various cartridge models. I can see the merit of an argument in favor of a more rigid anchoring, though I have noted how much the sound does change with VTA adjustments and can see why manufacturers would want to offer customers that adjustment.

[Woochifer]

No the guy who sells then took it apart the parts are under $30.00 and he claimed would take less than an hour for one person to build. (a Manual deivce). Man you must think all items have a 4% mark-up. If it's being sold and it's not marked up 100% AT LEAST from manufacturer to retailer and AGAIN at another 30% AT LEAST from Retailer to Customer then it's bad business. Yes That the $200 Nitty Griity cost the manufactuer $180.00 and the retailer is making $20.00? Dream on.

4% markup? Where do you get the idea that I believe in that? Please show your work if you really think that my statement points towards that as an end result.

You were saying that $800 for a record vac was a ripoff and that we should all not support ripoff artists by making our own record vacs. ALL I was asking was how you came up with that $30 vacuum figure -- is it something that you have intimate knowledge of or are you just making it up? But, if it's $30 worth of parts, it's basically $30 worth of scrap if you don't have the time, inclination, or handyman acumen to build a homemade record cleaning device. If you think that it's so criminal for the manufacturer and the retailer to maintain the margins that they do, then don't buy their products! $200 for a product that works the way it was intended to work is hardly a ripoff in the audio world.

You were the one that said that even at $100, the Nitty Gritty would be a ripoff. So, what you're then saying is that $30 (or is it $20, who knows, you keep making up numbers as you go) worth of parts getting assembled into a product that sells for $100 is STILL a ripoff? And even if you're correct in asserting that a layman can put something like this together for themselves in one hour, in my line of work, my billing rate is more than $100/hour. In that scenario, I had better enjoy woodworking and assembly because I know I would take a lot more than just one hour to put something like that together. (and even there, some of the parts that are used in those record vacs, like the brushes, are not things that you can just pick up at a local hardware store)


I keep them all in plastic wrap and only buy near mint or better LP's. Perhaps Rega's aguement which is no longer on their site was that if you take care of your discs from day one they should never get to a point where grunge would be an issue and therefore would not need to have a machine applied. I don't know because it's been a long time since I read it (over 2 years ago). But I get mixed messages here. For very light DUST a brush works and rega claimed that playing once through would remove that kind of very light dust. For heavy grunge people here say the cleaner doesn't work ANYWAY. SO we're after something in between which no one can see with the naked eye.

Maybe there's another reason why it's not posted on their website -- it's just plain bad advice. For everyday maintenance, a $15 carbon fiber brush is all that I use and all I think is necessary most of the time (for wet cleaning, I go with either the Discwasher D4 or the wet-vac at a used record store). For all of the various products that have been introduced over the years for record cleaning, there's a reason why the carbon fiber brush is still around and some of the more dubious products (like the once ubiquitous felt rollers, blotter pads, and cleaning cloths) have disappeared from the market. At one time, there were also numerous less expensive record cleaning machines (including the infamous battery operated Ronco Record Cleaner), but they also disappeared for a very simple reason -- they did not work and actually made things worse. The Nitty Gritty has been available for more than 20 years. Something that has survived that long, while so many other record cleaning products from vinyl's heyday are no longer available, should at least have some merit.

Cleaning is a necessity, that's just consensus opinion. Whether or not you deem it necessary to go that extra step and buy a record vac depends on how fanatically you wish to maintain your prized albums. For someone with a large vinyl collection and a lot of prized rarities and who does not play CDs very often and trades on the collector's market, I would view a record vac as a viable investment (having a near mint grade LP can be worth more than double what something graded VG+ will fetch). For someone who has a more modest collection and a limited collection of irreplaceables, I don't see as much value in a record vac, and that's why I never bought one (I have about 300 albums, but about half of them will likely never get played again because I just don't listen to that music anymore).


Perhaps Rega, and this is my conspiracy theory going, made these comments to help sell turntables. After all LP's are far more of a pain in the ass than CD. So by saying just plug and play and the needle will pick up the dirt makes it SEEM easier for buyers yo get into Vinyl again or for the first time.

Considering that this is not on Rega's website, I don't see any conspiracy at all. Maybe that approach would attempt to win over new customers, but I don't see how posting advice that runs so contrary to over 50 years worth of accepted practice has any benefit to them considering that their main market remains customers with a vested interest in the format (i.e. preexisting vinyl collections), AND their own experience with how to best maintain their collections.

[DMK]

Maybe there's another reason why it's not posted on their website .

I didn't read about Rega's stylus-to-clean-LP's philosophy on their website - I read it in Stereophile in two different reviews by Michael Fremer. One was a full blown review of the P9 and one was a review of the P2 and P3 in his column. Regrettably, I can't remember which issues they were in but I'm thinking 1997-98. Check Stereophile's website. I do remember Mikey's quote of "Love those idealists!" :)

Yo, Wooch, what turntable do you own? I promise I'm not one of those people that pooh-poohs the gear of others :). Well, I do occasionally with Skeptic but only because he brings it on himself. :) I wonder where that little troublemaker has been lately?

[Woochifer]

Yo, Wooch, what turntable do you own? I promise I'm not one of those people that pooh-poohs the gear of others :). Well, I do occasionally with Skeptic but only because he brings it on himself. :) I wonder where that little troublemaker has been lately?

Eh, I don't really care if other people rip on what I buy. If you are one of those who wallow in negativity, you'll reveal yourself in short order -- some people just can't help it!

Anyway, I have a Dual CS5000, which I bought right before I went away for grad school 13 years ago. Wanted to get one of the AR turntable reissues, but they had already been discontinued by the time I saved up enough. That Dual is basically a knockoff of the AR suspended isolation platform (it passes the hammering on the shelf test, and can stil play when tilted at 45 degrees), and adds its own twists like a damped aluminum platter, a 78 speed option, semi-automatic tonearm, and a quartz lock (I believe still the only one ever introduced with a belt drive motor). It was their last hurrah in the U.S. before their distributor just locked their doors with no warning, and Dual abandoned the U.S. market. I read that Dual has made a comeback, but it looks like the brand is just getting slapped onto a bunch of cheapie HTIB stuff. Although I did see that the Needle Doctor is now selling Dual turntables (but they are selling the CS505 for $900, which would be a ripoff because it sells in Europe for the equivalent of about $400), so maybe they are back.

Thought about upgrading the tonearm to a Rega R3 (their cleaning preferences not withstanding), since the tonearm is the weak point on the CS5000, but considering that vinyl's not what I listen to most of the time, I had other budgetary priorities. Even now, I'm looking to upgrade my cartridge first before doing anything else (swapping out my Ortofon OM20 for a Sumiko Black Pearl was a very regrettable decision). Thinking about either the Grado Gold or going to another Ortofon.

[92135011]

Some tonearms cost 200 while others cost thousands.
How does a tonearm improve the sound?

[Woochifer]

Some tonearms cost 200 while others cost thousands.
How does a tonearm improve the sound?

Some tonearms are just better than others at maintaining a neutral alignment than others. Optimally, you want a tonearm that basically only has the vertical force working. The stylus tracking in the groove has to move the entire tonearm, and you want one that exerts as little of its own resistance or force as possible. Anything that lets the stylus just track the groove and transmit the vibrations back through the cartridge with as few external demands as possible allows for a better quality signal to get transmitted. Unlike with digital where tweaks with the transport have little to no effect, with a turntable a lot of different variables can have an audible effect on the sound, the tonearm is one of them.

[92135011]

GAH!
I knew getting into vinyl was a bad idea :(
Will tempt me to upgrade. Using an oldschool technics right now for starters...but I think the allignment is no good...Got some noise, probably due to DD motor...and a problem with the hydrolic arm lift that causes me to cue up a song inaccurately...motor sometimes doesnt keep constant speed...and cant cue any songs that are about 3-4inches from the centre...otherwise its GREAT!

[hifitommy]

you wont be sorry.

[Woochifer]

GAH!
I knew getting into vinyl was a bad idea :(
Will tempt me to upgrade. Using an oldschool technics right now for starters...but I think the allignment is no good...Got some noise, probably due to DD motor...and a problem with the hydrolic arm lift that causes me to cue up a song inaccurately...motor sometimes doesnt keep constant speed...and cant cue any songs that are about 3-4inches from the centre...otherwise its GREAT!

First thing's first, before you even do ANYTHING, zero out the tracking force and anti-skate settings and see if the tonearm "floats." If it rises above or dips below the turntable platter or if it veers off to one side, then you have to readjust the counterweight, so that with the tracking force set to zero, it truly is zero. Once you have the counterweight corrected, then most cartridges recommend about a 1.25-1.75 gram tracking force. If it's too light, then the needle's prone to skipping and you'll pick up some sibilance. If it's too heavy, then you can get distortion, and your records can wear down very quickly.

An improperly set anti-skating probably explains why you can't cue accurately (if the setting is wrong, the tonearm veers off to either the right or left). If the thing lifts or drops abruptly, then the damping oil probably needs replacement.

I would also check on whether or not you actually have a DD motor. A lot of Technics turntables were belt drives. If the speed is shifting, then you probably have a worn belt.

Noise might not necessarily be due to the motor. Check the grounding wire and make sure it's firmly attached. Also, a lot of turntables recommend that you remove the grounding strap from the cartridge (it's a thin piece of metal at the base of one of the four connectors at the back of the cartridge, found on a lot of moving magnet cartridges). To remove the strap, you need to remove the cartridge body from the tone arm and use a small pocket knife or xacto blade to pick the strap out. (you should also pull the stylus out before you go messing with sharp objects around the cartridge) With my parents' old BIC turntable, failing to remove the grounding strap led to a constant low level humming sound.

Yup, a turntable's a lot more maintenance than a CD player, and a helluva lot less disposable.

[92135011]

definately not the counterweight thats the problem. I just got a new cart 2 weeks ago and redid the balancing. 1.5g as ortofon suggests. Cue is still off after all that.

The table is definately direct drive as the front says "direct drive". The fuctuating speed is sort of annoying. Sometimes it may go fast, then slow, then fast. Which of course causes a change of pitch and speed of any song.

The noise isnt THAT much a problem, but I know that a better table would get it quieter than it is now

[rick_r]

I was shopping at one of my favourite record shops a while ago and noticed the owner cleaning the records before playing them in his store. He used an old turntable, no arm, no power cord, just a plain old turntable.He would put the record on this turntable, give it a spin, and then spay his secret formula onto the record enough to soak the vinyl. Then using a blue paper towel from crapy tire (he claimed thay were lint free) and I don't know the real name off hand. He would dry the record off. I told him that I loved his make shift record cleaner so much so that I was going over to the thrift store and get one for myself. He looked at me and said I've seen you here before and then reached down behind the counter and gave me one just for comming in.Now that's recycling! And I've been buying records from him ever since.

[davetruestory]

Maybe is not the record, maybe is the stylus. I have this record of Rickie Lee Jones self title that sounded dirty until I change for the AT 440 mla and then the dirty sound disappear.

[02audionoob]

Holy thread revival, Batman.


Maybe is not the record, maybe is the stylus. I have this record of Rickie Lee Jones self title that sounded dirty until I change for the AT 440 mla and then the dirty sound disappear.


The AT's micro-linear stylus can make contact deeper in the groove, where there might be less wear.

[manlystanley]

What a thread this is!! I've heard that if you follow this procedure this will clean you records (for cheap).

1.) Put distilled water in a basin.
2.) Pour in alcohol.
3.) Dip in the record at a 90 degree angel, and 'spin it'.
4.) Then use a regular record cleaning pad to lightly wash it in the basin.
5.) take out and dry.

What do you guys think of this procedure??

Thanks,
Stan

[02audionoob]

I pour my record-cleaning mix directly on the record.

[manlystanley]

I pour my record-cleaning mix directly on the record.


Then you use a lint less cloth to scub them?? Chubb's was saying to really scrub them.. I've got a wet vac that I can use to suck them dry..

[02audionoob]

Then you use a lint less cloth to scub them?? Chubb's was saying to really scrub them.. I've got a wet vac that I can use to suck them dry..

I spread the liquid around the record in a circle with a sponge and let it soak for a few seconds. I scrub a little, parallel to the grooves, then vacuum it up. The guys at the AudioKarma turntables forum who have record cleaning machines all swear emphatically that no do-it-yourself methods can match the machines. But at Vinyl Asylum I've seen more mixed opinions on the matter.

[manlystanley]

I spread the liquid around the record in a circle with a sponge and let it soak for a few seconds. I scrub a little, parallel to the grooves, then vacuum it up. The guys at the AudioKarma turntables forum who have record cleaning machines all swear emphatically that no do-it-yourself methods can match the machines. But at Vinyl Asylum I've seen more mixed opinions on the matter.

Hey guys,
Wow! what a difference. The records I've got have been stored in who knows where for years. They have mold and all sorts of junk on them. Being naive, I just threw them on my turn table and played them. It truly sounded like the nettle going over sand. Yuk!!

I cleaned one side now "Ambassador Satch" sounds so great.


http://forums.audioreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6403&stc=1&d=1259701226

Thanks for the pointer. Just a question, when I used the shop vac, it sucks the record to the vacuum, so I put my pinky part of my hand on the record and drag around the vacuum (e.g. make sure that the record does not get sucked to the vaccum hose). I don't have any attachments for this thing. Is there a better way of doing this?

Best Regards,
Stan

[02audionoob]

Hey guys,
Wow! what a difference. The records I've got have been stored in who knows where for years. They have mold and all sorts of junk on them. Being naive, I just threw them on my turn table and played them. It truly sounded like the nettle going over sand. Yuk!!

I cleaned one side now "Ambassador Satch" sounds so great.


http://forums.audioreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6403&stc=1&d=1259701226

Thanks for the pointer. Just a question, when I used the shop vac, it sucks the record to the vacuum, so I put my pinky part of my hand on the record and drag around the vacuum (e.g. make sure that the record does not get sucked to the vaccum hose). I don't have any attachments for this thing. Is there a better way of doing this?

Best Regards,
Stan

I've seen a few home-modified nozzles for this purpose. Here's mine:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2570/4150691217_0bd49c1e86.jpg

The velvet is sort of scrunched up around the nozzle and lets a tiny bit of air in. My shop vac is very small and doesn't really have the horsepower to cause me much of a suction problem. I don't want too much air coming in around the sides, though. Lots of high-velocity air might vaporize the liquid before it got sucked in. The whole point in vacuuming is to lift the liquid off the record, not dry it on the record. So this is what I came up with.

[manlystanley]

I've seen a few home-modified nozzles for this purpose. Here's mine:

The velvet is sort of scrunched up around the nozzle and lets a tiny bit of air in. My shop vac is very small and doesn't really have the horsepower to cause me much of a suction problem. I don't want too much air coming in around the sides, though. Lots of high-velocity air might vaporize the liquid before it got sucked in. The whole point in vacuuming is to lift the liquid off the record, not dry it on the record. So this is what I came up with.

Nice design! I'll use it. As being a question, I still hear a little bit of 'grit' on the record. Is that what a record sound like normally, or should it sound crystal clean??

Thanks,
Stan

[slate1]

I'm not going to say too much on Rega's stance on LP cleaning, but suffice it to say that Roy Gandy is both a brilliant and eccentric individual. He builds fine equipment but his ideas concerning cartridge alignment and record care are both historically perplexing.

Now - for my real reason in posting! KAB Electro-acoustics sells a really nice kit made by Nitty Gritty for $159 if you're budget conscious. It's basically a Nitty Gritty sans the vacuum pump - you can just use a shop vac.

No matter what you do - do something - there's a whole world of used records out there that are just a short vac away from glorious sound. In all my years in this game - the single best investment I ever made was in a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine.

[02audionoob]

I'm not going to say too much on Rega's stance on LP cleaning, but suffice it to say that Roy Gandy is both a brilliant and eccentric individual. He builds fine equipment but his ideas concerning cartridge alignment and record care are both historically perplexing.

Now - for my real reason in posting! KAB Electro-acoustics sells a really nice kit made by Nitty Gritty for $159 if you're budget conscious. It's basically a Nitty Gritty sans the vacuum pump - you can just use a shop vac.

No matter what you do - do something - there's a whole world of used records out there that are just a short vac away from glorious sound. In all my years in this game - the single best investment I ever made was in a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine.

Yes...Roy Gandy's position is unusual. He's entitled to his opinion, but at the very least you'd have to assume he's talking to those who never buy a used record. I agree with slate1...I've bought many a record with various types of debris, gunk, grease, etc. on them and all it took to make them play well was a good cleaning.


KAB's modified Nitty Gritty does seem like a nice solution for the thrifty vinyl lover. However, it looks like it involves a lot of labor. In fact, that's the main difference in the lower levels of Nitty Gritty machines...the added labor. As KAB says, they all get your records equally clean. The expensive Nitty Gritty models just do more of the work than the inexpensive models.
　

Nice design! I'll use it. As being a question, I still hear a little bit of 'grit' on the record. Is that what a record sound like normally, or should it sound crystal clean??
Thanks,
Stan

We could probably get into the topic more and figure out what noise you're hearing. The short answer is - no...records don't sound like there's a bit of grit on them, when all is set up correctly and the record is clean. However...if you're playing an old mono record like Ambassador Satch with an elliptical stereo stylus and running it through a stereo preamp you're going to hear some pretty significant noise that has nothing to do with clean grooves. You might be able to reduce that by running your system on mono...maybe reduce it even more by getting a conical stylus...and perhaps even more by getting a large conical stylus, like a 1.0 mil.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but after each playing of a dirty LP, no matter how clean you think it is, clean the stylus with a good stylus brush.


Oh, and be very, very careful so you don't bend the cantilever. Always brush back to front.

[manlystanley]

Now - for my real reason in posting! KAB Electro-acoustics sells a really nice kit made by Nitty Gritty for $159 if you're budget conscious. It's basically a Nitty Gritty sans the vacuum pump - you can just use a shop vac.



Wow! I could not find the device. Can you please send out a link??

[02audionoob]

Wow! I could not find the device. Can you please send out a link??

It's under "Record Cleaners" at http://www.kabusa.com but KAB says to use a home vacuum cleaner, not a shop vac.

[manlystanley]

It's under "Record Cleaners" at http://www.kabusa.com but KAB says to use a home vacuum cleaner, not a shop vac.

I don't think it's worth $159. You need to rotate the disks yourself, then vacuum them off. If you just spread some cleaner and scrub a little it's basically the same thing---correct? The thing does not even have power, so it's just a brush inside (or something). Am I missing something here??


Thanks,
Stan

[02audionoob]

I don't think it's worth $159. You need to rotate the disks yourself, then vacuum them off. If you just spread some cleaner and scrub a little it's basically the same thing---correct? The thing does not even have power, so it's just a brush inside (or something). Am I missing something here??


Thanks,
Stan

Yes...I'd agree it's not worth $1.59. :biggrin5:

[slate1]

I don't think it's worth $159. You need to rotate the disks yourself, then vacuum them off. If you just spread some cleaner and scrub a little it's basically the same thing---correct? The thing does not even have power, so it's just a brush inside (or something). Am I missing something here?

I guess it's all relative - the entry level Nitty Gritty One is twice the price and the only difference is the inclusion of the vacuum pump on the Nitty Gritty. I, for one, didn't think twice about dropping $400+ on the VPI machine and feel it is worth every penny.

If you've got the time and ability to build your own machine for less, great!

[02audionoob]

I guess it's all relative - the entry level Nitty Gritty One is twice the price and the only difference is the inclusion of the vacuum pump on the Nitty Gritty. I, for one, didn't think twice about dropping $400+ on the VPI machine and feel it is worth every penny.

If you've got the time and ability to build your own machine for less, great!

I suppose the difference to me is that I've seen only rave reviews all around for the VPI machine, but mixed reviews on the Nitty Gritty. That's just from my limited view, though.

[manlystanley]

I guess it's all relative - the entry level Nitty Gritty One is twice the price and the only difference is the inclusion of the vacuum pump on the Nitty Gritty. I, for one, didn't think twice about dropping $400+ on the VPI machine and feel it is worth every penny.

If you've got the time and ability to build your own machine for less, great!

But the $159 machine had no power (if I read it correctly). So, there was no pumping of water. That means to me it's basically hand washing inside of a box, correct? if it had the spray pumps and everything except for the vacuum, I'd say it was a good deal.

Best Regards,
Stan