Into the dark abyss I go again....

[manlystanley]

I'm beginning to toy with the idea of replacing my Adcom GTP-500 preamp. The amp is good (when it works) but it has this nasty problem of sometimes having the right channel fade out; and/or bass response just dies. I think I've traced the problem to this my pre, so I'm trying to think about what I want to look for in an preamp.


I'm really thinking about a tube preamp. This is because, I want the preamp to improve the following on my system:


-- Dynamics: I hear tube really improve on micro and macro dynamics, correct?

-- Make it More Musical: I have no idea what this means. I hear you guys using this term as the highest praise that a component can have. I hear thinks like:
* Tubes create music; transistors reproduce it.
* Tubes bring music to life.
* etc.

* All these terms sound great and make me want tubes in my system, but I'm not quite sure what it means. But if all you audiophiles are into tubes, it must be a good thing. Comments?


-- I'd love to have a remote. I'm so sick of getting up and down to adjust the volume.


Besides these above things, I don't even know what questions to ask. Any help would be greatly appreciated to the above questions and to other questions such as:


-- I am right in looking into a tube preamp (correct?)
-- I read the debates here about tubes versus non-tubes and I'm confused.
-- Is it true that SS will sound more precise, but tubes will sound more 'life-like'?


Thanks,
Stan

[JoeE SP9]

IMO a tube preamp is the way to go. They may not be as outright accurate as SS preamp but they are much more musical. The brightness you spoke of in another post will be mostly gone with a tube preamp. This doesn't mean the sound is rolled off or dull in any way. You have to hear it for yourself to understand.

As for imaging; a good SS preamp will give good imaging with a nice deep sound stage (recording dependant). A tube preamp seems to flesh out the imaging.
IE: SS preamps seem to have what I call the cardboard effect. The imaging and depth is there but the performers sound like flat cardboard cutouts. Tube preamps fill those cutouts up and make them sound three dimensional. You have to hear it for yourself. Some claim that I'm blowing smoke. They usually don't have their gear in an optimum setup. The room treatments you have and the obvious care you've taken with equipment setup should make it easy for you to hear what I'm trying to describe.

I'm willing to bet your significant other will prefer the sound of tubes. If you can get her to do some critical listening her opinions will be very insightful. As always it's your ears and hers that must be satisfied.

I thought the GTP-500 was remote controllable. I just checked the Adcom site. The GTP-500 came with the RC-500 remote transmitter.

[blackraven]

Go for it Stan! Once you go tubes you will never look back. Tubes also allow you to fine tune the sound with tube rolling.

For me, tubes gave my system more transparency, wider sound stage, more warmth (depending upon the tubes I used, and note that not all the tubes that I tried sounded good but each had their own unique sound) depth and presence to the music.
The music sounded more natural and palpable. Any hint of digital edge was removed (even with my SS amp but I'm also using a tube DAC which may be another option for you instead of a preamp. The Tube DAC probably made the most impact in sound for me.).

[blackraven]

Stan, if you are on the fence about a tube preamp, try a Van Alstine T-8 or hybrid Preamp. Frank has a 30 day no questions asked return policy. You could try one just to see how it sounds and send it back even if you have no plans on buying one right now.

[Mr Peabody]

If no dealers have tube preamps for you to listen to www.acousticsounds.com have some and offer the 30 return, www.amusicdirect.com has some but I think most of theirs are pretty expensive gear like BAT. They will allow for a return but not as long as 30 days, keep an eye on www.spearitsound.com for "demo/used/close-out". I bought my CJ from them and they are a class act.

I think JoeE explained what to expect about as good as can be said just keep in mind it's general. Tube gear varies in sound the same as solid state so there are some stereotypical tube gear out there with bluming bottom end and rolled off highs. There is also some excellent tube gear as well. You may want to also consider solid state gear with a rep for musicality like Musical Fidelity, can't think right off of others.

[atomicAdam]

stan - I don't want to derail your thread - but I'm going to bring up your question about musicality - and if it gets too far off topic than I'll pull the post and make new thread.

But on your choice - demo demo demo demo demo - then choose. There is nothing like trying out a lot of different options and finding what works best. If you don't have the ability to demo a pre in your home - and you are looking for a warmer sound - than I'd say go with tube also. I think Jolida has some good priced tube pre amps with remote.

But - to get to your questions about musicality - here is my answer to your question - and it is only an educated guess.

I think the key is data and component quality. Lets assume the quality of the component are all on a greater than average level. So than it is data. What do I mean by data. I mean the amount of information being processed from the source by the system. As in, 24bit audio has more information than 16bit, analog has not stepping at all and is 100% information.

Why do I think information is important? I think the more information presented to the listener the more 'musical' a system will sound. Well what does musical mean. My best guess, they way I use it, the music just sounds more real. Plan and simple. It just sounds like the real thing is in your room.

But let me not digress from information and how this is related to tube vs. SS as well at 16bit digital to analog or even upsampling 16bit to 24bit or just 24bit.

I think the more information presented in a stereo sound field the easier it is for our ears to space the sound on some sort of stage. Both in depth and in stereo imaging. Think about it, a mono peace of music sounds like it all right there on 1 plain. And a mono track has less information than a stereo track. Now you can start to place things in a stereo field, left and right, center, just slightly right and so on. Now, that is pretty easy to do with a 16bit audio, but when you start to add more information, as in 24bit audio or analog, your brain can start to place things in a front and back, depth, stage imaging. There are more clues being presented to the brain for the brain to create some sort of image as to where that sound is originating from.

So how does this related to tubes and 16bit audio and why a tube amp might make the music sound more real. Well as you know the amplification technique of a tubes converts a stepped digital signal to a less stepped and more solid wave like formation. Through this amplification more data is added. Now, this data might not be the 'right' or 'perfect' data that SS will give to audio, by just amplifying the stepped data, but it might make it sound more musical and real to the human ear.

Just as a vinyl recording played against a 16bit CD will have significantly larger staging and detail. It is a solid wave being amplified, not a stepped wave form where information is missing.

Anyways - that is my speculation as to musicality and such.

Good luck w/ your search and demo as much stuff as you can, if you can.

[poppachubby]

Stan I own an EICO HF 85. Nothing can touch the smoothness of it's high gain stage...nothing. Like Joe said, you must hear it to full understand.

I think a tube pre would be a great idea for you. Yet another component to help round out your great system, and have some fun with too.

[Feanor]

Funny thing is I've got a tube preamp but am thinking of once again trying solid state. I guess there are two reasons.

First, perhaps the most practical: I often listen for short periods of time, under a hour, and it takes at 0-15 minutes at least for the tube preamp to warm up and sound right. This despite that my preamp keeps the tubes slightly warm in stand-by mode.

Secondly, with my new Class D Audio amp, I'm rescovering the joy of maximally resolved, transparent, and harmonically accurate sound. (Read about that HERE (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=34902).) Would my system be even more like that with a fine sold state amp? Might be fun to find out.

I'm into DIY these days and I've been looking at this preamp board from Elliott Sound Products (ESP) ... see HERE (http://sound.westhost.com/project88.htm). That needs a power supply that I could also get from ESP, and I might add his balanced line transmitter to preserve balance out put to my power amp.

I'd start with manual volume but I've I like the sound, I might add a remote control device and case from DIY Gene on eBay, see HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/LED-Display-Digi-Remote-Control-DIY-PCB-w-parts-CS3310-/230509020247?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0).

BTW, DIY Gene selles compete preamp kits. He has quite a few tube variations and a couple of solid state --- basically rip-offs of classic designs but what the heck -- see the list HERE (http://stores.ebay.com/DIY-Gene_Complete-Pre-Amp-Kit_W0QQ_fsubZ7196154QQ_sidZ156901427QQ_trksidZp46 34Q2ec0Q2em322). Kits include case and remote control and most are in the $300-400 range, and if your diffident about DIY, he'll assemble the kit for you for $80 ... WOW :eek6:

[manlystanley]

Everyone: I've read all your posts for some time about the value of tubes, and I'd be excited to fully understand the phrase "when you hear it you'll understand".

I'm very intrigued about the do it yourself reference JADIS pre-amplifiers:

Jadis JP-200 /LS-35C: http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Pre-amplifier-Kit-ref-Jadis-JP-200-LS-35C-/230511855559?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Jadis JP-200 /LS-9C http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Tube-Pre-amplifier-Kit-ref-Jadis-JP-200-LS-9C-/290461411045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Here is someone who is building one from scratch:

http://akula98.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/jp200-project/

Has anyone ever heard one of DIY Gene's creations?


Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Here's someone who built the JP200 and seems very pleased:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1149386081&openflup&11&4#11

Also a entire site dedicated to DIY audio: http://diyaudioprojects.com/


Also, here's just the board and components for $147: http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996 and shipping is $15.

[Feanor]

Everyone: I've read all your posts for some time about the value of tubes, and I'd be excited to fully understand the phrase "when you hear it you'll understand".

I'm very intrigued about the do it yourself reference JADIS pre-amplifiers:

Jadis JP-200 /LS-35C: http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Pre-amplifier-Kit-ref-Jadis-JP-200-LS-35C-/230511855559?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Jadis JP-200 /LS-9C http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Tube-Pre-amplifier-Kit-ref-Jadis-JP-200-LS-9C-/290461411045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Here is someone who is building one from scratch:

http://akula98.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/jp200-project/

Has anyone ever heard one of DIY Gene's creations?


Best Regards,
Stan
DIY Gene gets quite few hits searching at DiyAudio, check it out HERE (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/). He catches some flack there for supposedly ripping of Nelson Pass designs, (not the preamps), but then again Pass Labs has a forum there so he might have stronger the typical advocates at DiyAudio.

He certainly has a good eBay reputation how ever much that counts; it might be significant given the complex products he sells. Don't forget to check out the cases & remote control kits; select models come with the complete preamp kits as well as sold separately. They look like very good stuff in themselves.

Sweet job that builder in you link did. Of course, he bought the raw board and added the parts himself -- much bigger project than just bolting together one of the complete kits.

[manlystanley]

Sweet job that builder in you link did. Of course, he bought the raw board and added the parts himself -- much bigger project than just bolting together one of the complete kits.

I'm thinking from the above site that had the raw boards and tubes ($165 with shipping), that I could build the JP200 for around $300. But you might be right, getting the kit is the easy way to go.

Edit: Tehn I'm looking at all the JADIS kits on Ebay: http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=JADIS+&_sacat=293

There are a huge number! It will take a while to figure out which ones best.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Mr Peabody]

Feanore, it would be interesting to hear your impressions if you get a solid state preamp for comparison. I believe I saw a Bryston passive preamp on Audiogon. I was looking for something else at the time so I can't be positive but from the title that was my impression.

I've read things on the internet saying Jadis reliability leaves much to be desired. Could be building it yourself may relieve some of that.

[JoeE SP9]

The idea of building a Levinson or Jadis clone is very enticing. Those kits look like a really good deal. The casework is especially nice.

One caveat; am I the only one who looked at the shipping charges?

[blackraven]

The idea of building a Levinson or Jadis clone is very enticing.Those kits look like a really good deal. The casework is especially nice.

One caveat; am I the only one who looked at the shipping charges?

Nope!

Feanor, I bought my Hybrid preamp over the full tube preamp because it gave me the tube sound I was looking for and the level of detail and resolution of a solid state pre. And I can change the sound to be more tubey by changing tubes. The same goes for my Hybrid DAC.

[frenchmon]

IMO a tube preamp is the way to go. They may not be as outright accurate as SS preamp but they are much more musical. The brightness you spoke of in another post will be mostly gone with a tube preamp. This doesn't mean the sound is rolled off or dull in any way. You have to hear it for yourself to understand.

You have hit it on the head!

This is what I try to explain to people about Marantz gear.

[Feanor]

I'm thinking from the above site that had the raw boards and tubes ($165 with shipping), that I could build the JP200 for around $300. But you might be right, getting the kit is the easy way to go.

Edit: Tehn I'm looking at all the JADIS kits on Ebay: http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=JADIS+&_sacat=293

There are a huge number! It will take a while to figure out which ones best.

Best Regards,
Stan
Yeah, there are serveral that seem worth a careful look:

8Audio (http://stores.ebay.com/8Audio?_rdc=1)
DIY Gene (http://stores.ebay.com/DIY-Gene?_rdc=1)
diyaudiokit (http://stores.ebay.com/diyaudiokit?_rdc=1)
kikitronic (http://stores.ebay.com/kikitronic?_rdc=1)I like that DIY Gene sells complete kits with nice cases; so does diyaudiokit though they seems pricier and/or not as nice. Otherwise it's pretty hard to evaluate, e.g., the quality of the parts or accompanying documentation.

If you want to build from a bare board, a couple sell those and I think a couple sell boards plus the components. I suspect buying the board + components is cheaper than buying just the board, then ordering parts from say, Newark (http://www.newark.com/), or Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/). I'd guess this is true even if you want to upgrade to a few super quality parts from say, Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html).

[Feanor]

Nope!

Feanor, I bought my Hybrid preamp over the full tube preamp because it gave me the tube sound I was looking for and the level of detail and resolution of a solid state pre. And I can change the sound to be more tubey by changing tubes. The same goes for my Hybrid DAC.
Tube rolling can subtly modify the sound of a tube pre as I discovered with my Sonic Frontiers, also the SF has an extremely resolved sound, so I have no grounds for complaint. A DIY s/s preamp would primarily a hobby undertaking.

Tubes are appealing nonetheless, e.g. manlystanley's interest in the JADIS options. Personally I'm tempted to try a classic Marantz 7. I could get a complete kit from, e.g. DIY Gene for US$295, see HERE (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Complete-Tube-Preamplifier-Kit-ref-Marantz-7-LS-7BC-/260291099242?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0), or populated or bare board, or board plus parts from various eBay supplier. You would expect a pre from Frank Van Alstine to be better, but then an AvaStar (http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=205) is $2100 with remote control.

[Feanor]

Feanore, it would be interesting to hear your impressions if you get a solid state preamp for comparison. I believe I saw a Bryston passive preamp on Audiogon. I was looking for something else at the time so I can't be positive but from the title that was my impression.
...
Actually it's the building of it as much as the result that appeals to me.

The warm-up of my tube preamp is a minor irritation though. Mind you, it's still listenable when I go from Stand-by to On, so again, it's mainly the fun of building one.

[Mr Peabody]

I admire those who have the ability to do DIY.

Frenchmon, can you post the link to Musicl Design? That preamp is about $1495.00 but can be ordered with a choice of five different boards to tailor sound, might be an option for Stan if not wanting to build. Plus, it would give you the option of changing the sound as the boards can be easily swapped out by the user. You could essentually have one preamp and with the boards achieve more than one sonic signature.

[manlystanley]

Feanor,
Your the man! Great information. I'm going to start sniffing around DIYaudio and see what I can find. I'd love to talk to multiple people who have actually done DIY preamps and who can give solid feedback.
I personally like the option of doing a custom case with the tubes on top. For no other reason that (to my tastes) it really looks cool.
So, are you satisfied with your power amp? Is it as good as the one that you had before?

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Feanor,
You're the man! Great information. I'm going to start sniffing around DIYaudio and see what I can find. I'd love to talk to multiple people who have actually done DIY preamps and who can give solid feedback.
I personally like the option of doing a custom case with the tubes on top. For no other reason that (to my tastes) it really looks cool.
So, are you satisfied with your power amp? Is it as good as the one that you had before?

Best Regards,
Stan

[frenchmon]

I admire those who have the ability to do DIY.

Frenchmon, can you post the link to Musicl Design? That preamp is about $1495.00 but can be ordered with a choice of five different boards to tailor sound, might be an option for Stan if not wanting to build. Plus, it would give you the option of changing the sound as the boards can be easily swapped out by the user. You could essentually have one preamp and with the boards achieve more than one sonic signature.

Sure no problem MrP.

MrP and I have seen the products in person and they look better than what is presented on the web. Sounded pretty good as well.

http://www.musicaldesign.com/

http://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_Cham.html

http://www.musicaldesign.com/MUSDES_INTRO.html

[manlystanley]

Sure no problem MrP.

MrP and I have seen the products in person and they look better than what is presented on the web. Sounded pretty good as well.

http://www.musicaldesign.com/

http://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_Cham.html

http://www.musicaldesign.com/MUSDES_INTRO.html


Hello Frenchy and Mr. P,
Thanks so much! I was looking for around the $700 price range. The kit's fit he bill, but I just wonder how good they sound??

Best Regards,
Stan

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks, Frenchmon.

I was just thinking since you weren't sure of the sound having the ability to change it might be something you'd be interested in. If you are handy with the solder iron then a kit might be the way to go. I have no idea what to tell you to expect for sound. Keep in mind tube preamps will vary in sound character.

[manlystanley]

Personally I'm tempted to try a classic Marantz 7.

Here is someone who did build it. Generally positive comments.....

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-93094.html

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Tubes are appealing nonetheless, e.g. manlystanley's interest in the JADIS options. Personally I'm tempted to try a classic Marantz 7. I could get a complete kit from, e.g. DIY Gene for US$295, see HERE (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Complete-Tube-Preamplifier-Kit-ref-Marantz-7-LS-7BC-/260291099242?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0), or populated or bare board, or board plus parts from various eBay supplier. You would expect a pre from Frank Van Alstine to be better, but then an AvaStar (http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=205) is $2100 with remote control.
\

Fearnor,
Why do you like the Marantz better then The Jadis JP200??

Thanks,
Stan

[manlystanley]

So, just looking at the general pricing, at a site I like. What is good is that they have a user support forum (http://forum.analogmetric.com/). Then they tell you what component brands that they use:

Remote Control ($59): http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1132
JP200 ($143): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996
Power supply ($99): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1016
Input Selector ($19): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1928
Transformer ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1126
Choke ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=243
10 Gold RCA ($20): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=476
Chassis ($80): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=646

Total: $518.

This costs more then the 'Kit', but it has much better compients (like a motorized volume, gold connectors, etc, etc.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

So, just looking at the general pricing, at a site I like. What is good is that they have a user support forum (http://forum.analogmetric.com/). Then they tell you what component brands that they use:

Remote Control ($59): http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1132
JP200 ($143): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996
Power supply ($99): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1016
Input Selector ($19): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1928
Transformer ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1126
Choke ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=243
10 Gold RCA ($20): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=476
Chassis ($80): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=646

Total: $518.

This costs more then the 'Kit', but it has much better compients (like a motorized volume, gold connectors, etc, etc.

Best Regards,
Stan

[blackraven]

You would expect a pre from Frank Van Alstine to be better, but then an AvaStar (http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=205) is $2100 with remote control.

Frank will still make His T-8 all tube preamp for about $1300. You can find them used occasionally for about $500-800. Frank will even check it out for $25 and see if it is up to spec if you find one used. But the DIY preamp looks interesting. I'd like some one to try it. I would like to get separates for my second system.

[Feanor]

So, just looking at the general pricing, at a site I like. What is good is that they have a user support forum (http://forum.analogmetric.com/). Then they tell you what component brands that they use:

Remote Control ($59): http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1132
JP200 ($143): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996
Power supply ($99): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1016
Input Selector ($19): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1928
Transformer ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1126
Choke ($49): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=243
10 Gold RCA ($20): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=476
Chassis ($80): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=646

Total: $518.

This costs more then the 'Kit', but it has much better compients (like a motorized volume, gold connectors, etc, etc.

Best Regards,
Stan
Wow! That's great. Hope you go for it and let us know how it works out.

Just curious: where is the choke used?

[hermanv]

No one has commented on a passive pre, neither tube nor transistor. properly built they neither add nor subtract information.

For CD sound my personal opinion is that the DAC overrules the other components in the reproductive chain. Wothout a good conversion process (read uncolored and detailed) all other issues become very much secondary.

My home built pasive pre uses Vishay resistors and Shallco silver swithces. With pure silver wiring and Cardas connectors sound is both sweet and detailed.

[blackraven]

For CD sound my personal opinion is that the DAC overrules the other components in the reproductive chain. Wothout a good conversion process (read uncolored and detailed) all other issues become very much secondary.

My home built pasive pre uses Vishay resistors and Shallco silver swithces. With pure silver wiring and Cardas connectors sound is both sweet and detailed.

Herman, I have to agree with you on this to some extent. In my system, tube rolling in my preamp and DAC shows that swaping tubes in the DAC makes the biggest impact in the sound.

[Feanor]

So, just looking at the general pricing, at a site I like. What is good is that they have a user support forum (http://forum.analogmetric.com/). Then they tell you what component brands that they use:

...
JP200 ($143): http://analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996
...

Best Regards,
Stan
Give some consideration to upgrading the capacitors in the direct signal path. You might consult the "Great Capacitor Shootout", (here (http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm)), which link was originally supplied by RGA as I recall. Obviously you can spend absurd amounts or money on capacitors

[manlystanley]

Wow! That's great. Hope you go for it and let us know how it works out.

Just curious: where is the choke used?

Hello Feanor,
The choke is used to connect the power supply to ground. Without it, the power supply is directly grounded to the chassis. The purpose of it is to attenuate output feedback that come from the amplifier and goes though the ground plane back to the Power supply, and vis-a-versa.


I'm in a research mode right now. I've looked at multiple kits and I'm kind of leaning away from the JP200 now. Many reviews I've read have said that the sound quality of the JP200 came from the components chosen and not just the design. So, I'm looking at other options now. Anyways, this is a fun process and I'm enjoying it.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

No one has commented on a passive pre, neither tube nor transistor. properly built they neither add nor subtract information.

For CD sound my personal opinion is that the DAC overrules the other components in the reproductive chain. Wothout a good conversion process (read uncolored and detailed) all other issues become very much secondary.

My home built pasive pre uses Vishay resistors and Shallco silver swithces. With pure silver wiring and Cardas connectors sound is both sweet and detailed.


Interesting. So, a passive-pre just puts in a volume attenuation (and nothing else). I'm just curious if the sound qualities that a tube amp puts in would be more to my liking?

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Give some consideration to upgrading the capacitors in the direct signal path. You might consult the "Great Capacitor Shootout", (here (http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm)), which link was originally supplied by RGA as I recall. Obviously you can spend absurd amounts or money on capacitors


Will do. The advantage of building your own is that you feel capable to upgrade the components.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Here's a link to a guy building his own preamp:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/114302.aspx

Best Regards,
Stan

[Mr Peabody]

hermanv, how much to build a passive such as yours and does it have a remote?

[Feanor]

Hello Feanor,
The choke is used to connect the power supply to ground. Without it, the power supply is directly grounded to the chassis. The purpose of it is to attenuate output feedback that come from the amplifier and goes though the ground plane back to the Power supply, and vis-a-versa.
...

Best Regards,
Stan
Thanks, Stan. That show the depth of my electrical ignorance -- I'd never heard of doing such a thing before.

[Feanor]

hermanv, how much to build a passive such as yours and does it have a remote?
Well, a passive preamp consists of an input selector and an attenuator and about that's it.

It seems to me that basicaly you could build one with this remote control selector + attenuator like this one, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-way-Audio-Remote-Control-DIY-Kit-PCB-w-parts-MV-02-/230504132075?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)), from DIY Gene, $40, plus the requisite power transformer for the remote function, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/50W-R-Core-Transformer-115V-230V-Preamp-DAC-R26-x-/290460443941?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2)), $20, and a case like this one, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Aluminum-int-pre-amplifier-Chassis-Case-Audio-DIY-A-28-/230504839845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)), $60. It would cost you around $120 plus shipping.

http://www.diygene.com/diy_photos/others/mv-02_1.jpg

(Wow! I'm thinking I could go for that myself!)

[hermanv]

hermanv, how much to build a passive such as yours and does it have a remote?No remote, the Placette passive pre comes with a remote. The Placette gets great reviews and is readily available used.

Mine was about $550 in parts; Shallco switch $120, 3 times Cardas RCA $45 and 28 Vishay resistors X $11.95 = $334 Total excluding chassis and knobs was about $500,

Note for steps (1.5 dB/step) beyond -22 dB or higher than -3dB I used Cadoc resistors. I used a "Mod Squad" passive pre as a box/chassis ($150 used) and Cardas wire.

[manlystanley]

Here is a rave review of the Placette passive pre: http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/604placette/

Here's a discussion I had about building a Aikdio preamp:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/172283-so-if-its-not-diy-gene-then-what.html

At this time, I'm leaning towards doing the Aikdio, for the following reasons:

-- Always wanted to hear what the 'tube sound was'

-- Absolutely *TONS* of reviews and comments on the net. All of them very possible. It seems that the Aikdio does not have a real strong tube sound, but it is very clear and detailed. (e.g. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/14/140684.html ).

--Tons of community support.

-- Actually cheaper then the Chinese knockoffs.

-- Very little support and reviews of of what the Chinese knockoffs sound like.


Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

...
Here's a discussion I had about building a Aikdio preamp:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/172283-so-if-its-not-diy-gene-then-what.html

At this time, I'm leaning towards doing the Aikdio, for the following reasons:

-- Always wanted to hear what the 'tube sound was'

-- Absolutely *TONS* of reviews and comments on the net. All of them very possible. It seems that the Aikdio does not have a real strong tube sound, but it is very clear and detailed. (e.g. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/14/140684.html ).

--Tons of community support.

-- Actually cheaper then the Chinese knockoffs.

-- Very little support and reviews of of what the Chinese knockoffs sound like.
...
Well, well, Stan. You've been very busy indeed with your research.

Seeing a decent use manual as for the Aikido is very confidence-inspiring for non-electo engineer like me. Nevertheless I wouldn't be interested in a preamp for soley for the reason than good support.

Personally I'm stilling leaning to ESP's s/s preamp (for which, however, there is excellent support, BTW; see the description HERE (http://sound.westhost.com/project88.htm)). I might combine it with a DIY Gene remote control and case.

Respecting DIY Gene, a lot of the negative vibs seem to center around his alleged rip-offs of other people's designs. On the point, first, I haven't heard any credible accusations of actual patent or copywrite violations. Secondly, given no legal violations, I really don't care how flagrant his clones are if the quality is decent and the prices are low. And, for sure, DIY Gene's prices are most compeditive and he has a good eBay reputation.

If I were looking for a tube preamp, I think I'd look for a "tubey" classic design, and DIY Gene's Marantz 7 clones looks like a bargoon at $295, HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Tube-Preamplifier-Kit-ref-Marantz-7-LS-7BC-/260291099242?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0), for the complete preamp including case and remote control. ...

http://www.bensan.hk/diy_photos/Tube_pre/ls-7b_1.jpg

[manlystanley]

Lots of choices. This review said that the Aikdio was way to neutral and boring. They liked the following amp much better:

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=70569.0

Here's another option:

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Grounded_Grid_Preamp.html

It has many positive professional reviews:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/todd23.htm
www.affordableaudio.org/GroundedGrid.pdf
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/9100.html



I don't know. Lots of choices.....


Best Regards,
Stan

[hermanv]

I think I would be concerned about people "looking" for a certain sound signature. Whether tube or solid state any excess color is probably bad.

As long as there is good extension and dynamics, a boring or neutral sound will probably serve you well in the long run. Leave the atmosphere to the musicians and sound engineers, good or bad one hopes you hear what they intended it to sound like.

A good system will bring out the best in quality recordings while not making mass market or poor recordings sound any worse.

[manlystanley]

Herman: Good point concerning the sound signature.

Feanor: Good points as well. I wish there was only one clear front runner....

I found this article: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=127&start=20

In it, multiple people, compared the following preamps:

Manley Shrimp
Aikido 24v
Odyssey Candela
VTL Deluxe
Burson preamp
Denon receiver used as pre

All the people judged Manley Shrimp and the Aikido in first and second place. Teh main grip of teh Aikido was that it was 'too bright' compared to the manly Shrimp. The Manly Shrimp amp costs about $2000 and is reviewed here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/manley-shrimp-tube-preamp-4-2003.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/manley5/seafood.html
http://www.avguide.com/review/manley-labs-shrimp-preamplifier?page=1
www.affordableaudio.org/ManleyShrimpPreamp.pdf

[manlystanley]

I've done a lot of thinking and researching, and I think I'm going with this preamp: http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/aiam56stkit.html . I can build it with a remote for $400. I've read lots of great things about the 5687 tube, and the Aikido amp in general.

From what I understand, a major factor of how the amp sounds is what components are used for the:
-- Output coupling
-- and to a lesser degree the bias current.

I'm planning on building the plain vanilla version and then modifying it to make it sound best to my room and my ears.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

I've done a lot of thinking and researching, and I think I'm going with this preamp: http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/aiam56stkit.html . I can build it with a remote for $400. I've read lots of great things about the 5687 tube, and the Aikido amp in general.

From what I understand, a major factor of how the amp sounds is what components are used for the:
-- Output coupling
-- and to a lesser degree the bias current.

I'm planning on building the plain vanilla version and then modifying it to make it sound best to my room and my ears.

Best Regards,
Stan
That looks very cool, Stan. Give us plenty of updates.

[Mr Peabody]

Stan the man :) let the solder flow....

[manlystanley]

Give some consideration to upgrading the capacitors in the direct signal path. You might consult the "Great Capacitor Shootout", (here (http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm)), which link was originally supplied by RGA as I recall. Obviously you can spend absurd amounts or money on capacitors


Hello Feanor,
You are the man!!!! errr.... maybe macho Elf Lord is a better title?? Anyways, I'm planning on using this Capacitor Shootout to optimize the sound. Very, very good information. I try to give back to this group, but I always seem to get so much more then I get!!

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

Hello Feanor,
You are the man!!!! errr.... maybe macho Elf Lord is a better title?? Anyways, I'm planning on using this Capacitor Shootout to optimize the sound. Very, very good information. I try to give back to this group, but I always seem to get so much more then I get!!

Best Regards,
Stan
Yer welcome.

The Mundorf MCap Supremes look like a great deal. Note that they are listed under 'AAA' for AC line filters because they are the only AAAs what are 'X' rated, however they can because used elsewhere too.

[Geoffcin]

Hello Feanor,
The choke is used to connect the power supply to ground. Without it, the power supply is directly grounded to the chassis. The purpose of it is to attenuate output feedback that come from the amplifier and goes though the ground plane back to the Power supply, and vis-a-versa.

One of my amps, the Musical Fidelity A3cr, uses choke regulation and it's a very quite amp. An unusual desing for a SS amp, but it works very well.

[manlystanley]

Wanted to give you all a little status on how my preamp is going:

-- I've been stuck with it for about 3 weeks. I'm studying for a certification test (CISSP) that I take this Saturday and I've been giving my full attention just to the test.

-- I've got all amp parts and with some help of some friends I've got a good design of the Rk and power supply so that I can get a 250 volt B+.

-- The tubes that I'm using will be: 5687 and the 6CG7's. Both of these tubes have heavy heater draws, so I've got a beefed up low voltage supply.

-- I got the chassis all wired up with the remote controlled volume control. I hooked up the new preamp with just the remote controlled volume control and it works great (e.g. sound was great. Very different then with my current Adcom. There is a HUGE amount of bass. It worries me that may be the final result will be bass heavy.


-- I have the Aikido amp itself all soldered (except for a few jumpers that I'm not sure what to do with).

-- When I have time, I need to: Solder the power supply; put it in and give the system a look see.

I'm taking my family surf fishing next week (after my Saturday CISSP test) in North Carolina. Then I plan on finishing up the project. I'll make sure to tell you all how it sounds!!

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Wanted to give you all a little status on how my preamp is going:

-- I've been stuck with it for about 3 weeks. I'm studying for a certification test (CISSP) that I take this Saturday and I've been giving my full attention just to the test.

-- I've got all amp parts and with some help of some friends I've got a good design of the Rk and power supply so that I can get a 250 volt B+.

-- The tubes that I'm using will be: 5687 and the 6CG7's. Both of these tubes have heavy heater draws, so I've got a beefed up low voltage supply.

-- I got the chassis all wired up with the remote controlled volume control. I hooked up the new preamp with just the remote controlled volume control and it works great (e.g. sound was great. Very different then with my current Adcom. There is a HUGE amount of bass. It worries me that may be the final result will be bass heavy.


-- I have the Aikido amp itself all soldered (except for a few jumpers that I'm not sure what to do with).

-- When I have time, I need to: Solder the power supply; put it in and give the system a look see.

I'm taking my family surf fishing next week (after my Saturday CISSP test) in North Carolina. Then I plan on finishing up the project. I'll make sure to tell you all how it sounds!!

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Well, a passive preamp consists of an input selector and an attenuator and about that's it.

It seems to me that basicaly you could build one with this remote control selector + attenuator like this one, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-way-Audio-Remote-Control-DIY-Kit-PCB-w-parts-MV-02-/230504132075?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)), from DIY Gene, $40, plus the requisite power transformer for the remote function, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/50W-R-Core-Transformer-115V-230V-Preamp-DAC-R26-x-/290460443941?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2)), $20, and a case like this one, (here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Aluminum-int-pre-amplifier-Chassis-Case-Audio-DIY-A-28-/230504839845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)), $60. It would cost you around $120 plus shipping.

http://www.diygene.com/diy_photos/others/mv-02_1.jpg

(Wow! I'm thinking I could go for that myself!)

This is the remote control that I got. It needs a separate 12v transformer, but I'm very pleased with it.

[Mr Peabody]

Eeew doggies, listen at you talk, sounding all fancy like a technician or something :) Good deal Stan, looks like you are having fun.

A bluming bass can sometimes be a trait of some tube gear, hence the stereotype. It sounds like you put a lot of research into the project hopefully when all is settled it won't be bad.

[Dawnrazor]

Any hint of digital edge was removed (even with my SS amp but I'm also using a tube DAC which may be another option for you instead of a preamp. The Tube DAC probably made the most impact in sound for me.).

Hey BR,

My hunch is that your mags are probably to blame for the digital edge. Placing some 5522 chokes from mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/5502-RC/?qs=fj4YUUjxfekflV0%2fg9%252bOcg%3d%3d
in series with the tweeter will do wonders to tame the digital edge.

I was shocked when I put them on mine, and the bass panels too. I never thought I had any digital edge though when I put these on it was amazing how warm things became.

The idea is that the mags are radio antennas and RF can get into the amp and modulate the signal which typically sounds like digititus. This can be rf from existing gear like cdps or from neighbors wifi, etc.

Anyhow well worth the 10-20$ if you have maggies.