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TypeA
08-14-2010, 12:44 PM
Hi all.

Ive been researching a new 7.2 home theater speaker package. Most all speaker manufactures have, what I consider to be, 'pro' reviews from the likes of sound and vision, home theater magazine, audiophile, ect ect ect. However Bic acoustictech speakers have none of that (save an obscure review by an unknown PHD from 2004). Called their sole distributor today to ask, for a speaker package that can NOT be evaluated in any store front, why there are ZERO pro reviews after being in business for six years. I was promptly informed that other manufactures PAY for these reviews, that I was incorrect in believing that manufactures simply submit their speakers, free of charge, for evaluation and bench marking by these well-know magazines and review sources. Sure, there are lots of "user reviews" for these speakers (all positive btw) but I also know anyone can register and put whatever they want. So, is this true, do manufactures PAY for these reviews from main stream reviewers?

markw
08-14-2010, 01:26 PM
So, is this true, do manufactures PAY for these reviews from main stream reviewers?Not that I'm aware of. They may provide the product to be reviewed and, hopefully, it's returned by reputable firms, but that's about it.

Look into Infinity Primus for another option. They're getting good press from owners today, not four years ago.

JoeE SP9
08-14-2010, 03:43 PM
In the first place why would you want a speaker package that was last reviewed by "Mr Nobody" six years ago? That alone should tell you something.

Do you think a car magazine or any other enthusiast publication is paid by the manufacturers? In most cases I think the reviewers would pay the manufacturers to get access to do a review. Consumer Reports goes as far as actually buying any product they review.

While I may not always agree with the major audio magazines web sites and reviewers I don't believe they get paid for reviews. My understanding is that all gear speakers included is regular production that is loaned to the magazine and/or reviewer.

I've said this before and I'm saying it again. "The only way to make an informed speaker purchase is to listen before you buy. Buying because a magazine, reviewer or web site recommends it is not making an informed decision."

luvtolisten
08-14-2010, 05:12 PM
Hi Type A and welcome to AR! I'm sure there are some that are paid, but those IMO are far and few between. There are some however, who are afraid to ruffle any feathers, for fear if they write a bad review, they won't get any more samples from that company. Joe E advice is sound, hear it with your own ears, if it's possible. If not I guess as Clint Eastwood would say "Do you feel lucky today?" I live in a small town, audio availability is very low, so it depends how much I'm investing to drive to hear what I'm interested in. If it's not worth the drive,then I look for reviews from actual OWNERS, on forums such as this. Them you can also see what other equipment they are running it with and get a better feel if it's suited for you or not.
I look mainly for the negative responses, there are always a few you can throw out, but if the positive far outweighs the negative, then I may be willing to chance it, but make sure I have 30 days to return if I'm not 100% satisfied, for any reason whatsoever..

TypeA
08-14-2010, 05:41 PM
I live in a small town, audio availability is very low, so it depends how much I'm investing to drive to hear what I'm interested in...

Ditto. Thank you three. Problem with this line is that there is NO showroom, and theyre horn loaded (which Ive never experienced in home theater)...yes, I can listen to Klipich for an idea of what horn sounds likebbut am considering foregoing a 7.2 system for NOW. Instead, sucking it up, and starting with an Infinity P362 (2), PC350 (1), P162 (2), and a $400 (as yet unnamed) sub package instead. Roughly the same price as the 7.2 from bic. Am I on the right track here?

blackraven
08-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Thats a decent price for an Infinity Primus package.. I would consider looking at some PSB Alpha B1's that sell for about $279pr. This link has some B-stock for $219pr.

http://saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/psb_bstock.htm

Here's a good review on the PSB's

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/507psb/index.html

I would also consider a pair of PSB B-25's or B-15's if you can find them. They sound better than the infinity P-162's. I bought a pair of P-160's which is essentially the same speaker as the 162 and they have decent sound for the $150pr price I paid but the PSB's are in another class.

blackraven
08-14-2010, 06:42 PM
These Boston Acoustics are a great buy for an inexpensive Bookshelf

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542966557/boston-acoustics-cs26b

TypeA
08-14-2010, 07:01 PM
You guys are awesome...lots of good suggestions indeed. Despite a good deal on what appears to be top flight speakers like the b1, I think the remainder of the package might end up out of my price range (unless I did a b1 times 5 lol). No joy finding the B-25's or B-15' either :(

Id really like to keep all speakers the same manufacture, so can a boston 5.0 package compete with a $800 (shipped) 5.0 Infinity system comprised of a P362 (2), PC350 (1), P162 (2) at roughly the same price? Not doubting you at all Raven, its an honest question from a rookie.

luvtolisten
08-14-2010, 07:07 PM
Ditto. Thank you three. Problem with this line is that there is NO showroom, and theyre horn loaded (which Ive never experienced in home theater)...yes, I can listen to Klipich for an idea of what horn sounds likebbut am considering foregoing a 7.2 system for NOW. Instead, sucking it up, and starting with an Infinity P362 (2), PC350 (1), P162 (2), and a $400 (as yet unnamed) sub package instead. Roughly the same price as the 7.2 from bic. Am I on the right track here?

For what it's worth, I have the BIC 62's and Infinity Beta 20's. The Infinity are a better build,( I took a inside both) with better bass, but the BIC's I think have the edge in the highs and mids. I guess it may come down to what type of music you like. If it's acoustical or jazz, I prefer the BIC 62's. If it's rock, the Infinity's have the edge.

TypeA
08-14-2010, 07:15 PM
My existing system btw. Weak LMAO

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg238/tjearnest/101_1291.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg238/tjearnest/101_1293.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg238/tjearnest/101_1294.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg238/tjearnest/101_1295.jpg

luvtolisten
08-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Not bad, my first pair of speakers were a pair of Bose 301's (series 1, early 70's). A friend of mine had the 901's back then, his were hanging from the ceiling too, in those rope plant holders.
Hey, we all had to start somewhere:)

TypeA
08-15-2010, 01:07 AM
By replacing these Bose with this Infinity package I like to think I am, literally, replacing some of the worst with some of the best (within a reasonable budget anyway). My HK 7000 has just recently been 'relieved of duty' by the Marantz SR7002. Ive read the P362 can be a little power hungry, but Im hoping the 7002 will do fine with its touted, "110 watts per channel, in all discrete "Current Feedback" amplier stages." Opinions? Bi-amplifying the fronts is an option with the receiver, and it has preouts for all seven channels.

Any other feedback about the current decision of the P362 (2), PC350 (1), P162 (2)? Will this combo be the best timber match? I liked the review and look of the psb's, but have lived with this Bose system for years and Im VERY ready to go towers in the front. ONLY way I could afford the PSB's would be an 'all' bookshelf system with roughly the same money as the Infinity.

JoeE SP9
08-15-2010, 06:57 AM
The customer reviews and forum posts here and on other sites all have good things to say about the "Primus" speakers. That many people can't be wrong. Were I in your position I'd be inclined to take a chance on the Infinities. I would forget about the BIC's. The out right lie you were told is a good indicator of deceptive everything.

Something to remember is that magazines don't review products the reviewers don't think much off.

TypeA
08-15-2010, 11:42 AM
And you are absolutely right, " The only way to make an informed speaker purchase is to listen before you buy. Buying because a magazine, reviewer or web site recommends it is not making an informed decision."

As tragic as it may be for someone to rely solely on reviews and class comparisons, it still gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling when a contributing editor of Stereophile just recently told me, "Not in Stereophile (sic we are not paid for our reviews). The reason we have not reviewed the BIC speakers is that they do not fit our segment of the market or, I believe, the interests of our readers. I cannot comment on other publications but I doubt that "pay for play" is universal." I see stereophile reviews of the 362's predecessor, the then more expensive 360. That review states, "It has an attractive combination of strengths and weaknesses, and presents levels of high-level dynamic drama and effortlessness that are unheard of at the price." Of the current P162, that will make up my surround and rear channels, they write, " if you're looking for a speaker that will present detailed, uncolored, dynamic, and involving musical and home-theater experiences independent of the type of music or volume level, you can rest easy in knowing that the Primus P162 will satisfy all of your needs, and will likely give many years of musical satisfaction without you ever feeling the compulsion to upgrade. Infinity, you've done it again."

Ironically enough, I think the acoustitec's pl76 package would be a good set-up, and a super value for a 7.2 package. However, when you consider the lack of their name relative to Infinity (spoken like a true Bose owner eh?) and their sole distributor implying reviews may be paid for, suddenly that extra rear pair and extra 12 inch sub didnt seem so great any more.

blackraven
08-15-2010, 02:15 PM
The more I look at that deal for the Infinity page the more I think it is a great deal. The Primus series are not bad speakers and you could do a lot worse. Just make sure that you use a decent sub with them. They tend to lack bass and a sub with nice tight bass will really help with the sound. I'm quite surprised that it comes with the 162's for the rear channels instead of the smaller P-152's. The 162's are fairly large for a bookshelf. The 362's list for about $320pr and the 162's go for about $180pr.

TypeA
08-15-2010, 02:44 PM
Im really glad you mentioned subs. Ultimately I am building a 7.2 system but will probably buy them one at a time. Id love some input on the right choice for me...my budget is no more than $400 per sub, maybe $450 shipped. I want tight, as I suspect eventually going .2 will be plenty of bass for me. Ive read that a 10" sub is in my future, unless Im willing to spend much more to get a 'tight 12"', is that correct? Also, any recommended subs must be realistically easy to find in the near future, as my budget wont afford dual subs at the same time and Id like them to match exactly. Otherwise, small form factor (svs looks awesome, but also a great example of way too big for my taste), black ash finish to match all other speakers. As long as its black, I guess the finish doesnt matter, but throwing it out there just in case.

luvtolisten
08-15-2010, 03:28 PM
HSU also makes some fine subs as well.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/
Energy does too, but they are due for another style change.

JoeE SP9
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
It might be a good time to look at Energy subs. A style change would mean lower prices on existing inventory.

TypeA
08-15-2010, 05:51 PM
It might be a good time to look at Energy subs. A style change would mean lower prices on existing inventory.

Thats always the exact same thing that first comes to my mind, as long as a month or two down the road I can still get a second sub of the same model.

Case in point; I picked up a new marantz 7002 receiver off amazon (so includes the full three year warranty) and it came with an upgraded main remote ($350 RC3001) all for $600 shipped! Its 1.3a hdmi, but for a $1700 retail price tag I wasnt complaining about such a good deal.

pixelthis
08-15-2010, 06:17 PM
Thats always the exact same thing that first comes to my mind, as long as a month or two down the road I can still get a second sub of the same model.

Case in point; I picked up a new marantz 7002 receiver off amazon (so includes the full three year warranty) and it came with an upgraded main remote ($350 RC3001) all for $600 shipped! Its 1.3a hdmi, but for a $1700 retail price tag I wasnt complaining about such a good deal.

As far as Bic goes, they used to make some pretty good turntables, if thats the manufacturer
I am thinking of. BESIDES a few other things.
There won't be too many reviews, because this is an ENGLISH company, WHAT hI-fI
MAG might know something about these, most likely someone got a cargo container
cheap and is trying to unload them. Forget about them:1:

blackraven
08-15-2010, 06:24 PM
If you want a nice tight musical sub that would be good for music as well as HT, consider a used Martin Logan Dynamo which you should be able to find for $400. I would also consider the Emotiva sub www.emotiva.com Mr. P has some good things to say about it.
Mirage makes some nice inexpensive subs as well.

http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549699392/mirage-omd-prestige-s10?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=549699392&v_c=GoogleBase

The Mirage may be the better of the 2, but I'm sure both would fit your needs. The Mirage looks to have more power, peak and rms but power isn't every thing. I've heard a Mirage S8 and was impressed with that little sub.

Judging from the size of your room, I would not go with a 12" sub.

TypeA
08-16-2010, 02:29 AM
Hmmm, so far my favorites are

Emotiva, $289 new shipped. Typical In‐Room Frequency Response: 25Hz‐200Hz Dimensions: 12.5” wide x 12.5” high x 13.5” deep

Energy 10" $260 used shipped. 32Hz-140Hz freq response. HxWxD (including feet and grille) 17 x 13 x 14.8 inches


The emo seems to have a much better response and is alot smaller. Opinions so far?

luvtolisten
08-16-2010, 03:30 AM
I have the HSU STF-2, and an Energy ESW 8. The HSU will go lower and louder (10"), but the Energy ESW 8 (8") is more musical and a bargain. But then again, I rarely use HT. I bought the HSU first, if I had to do it over again I would have bought 2 Energy subs and used the extra cash for something else. I can live without the floor shaking.:) But that's just me, my opinion.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=energy+subwoofer&tag=googhydr-20&index=electronics&hvadid=3341261667&ref=pd_sl_407cjw49iw_e

TypeA
08-16-2010, 03:51 AM
If this system will be 90% movies, 10% music can I really get away with an 8"? Music performance is very important to me, but ultimately not at the cost of movies. Im assuming Ill have this audio system for 10 years. During that time my room size will probably go up to a medium and its highly unlikely that this system will remain in such a small room as seen in the pics here in this thread. I figured in the interest of my budget, a tight 12" is out. An 8", while it is the most bang for the buck (especially the hsu), it wont go low or loud enough for a medium sized room, is that correct? I like the hsu but the only one that seems within my price range is the 8". I know my budget is $400 per, but $300 per shipped seems to be where Im headed in the 10" class (which is fine by me). Will eventually adding a second identical sub allow me to get good movie AND music performance from an 8"? If thats the case, that immediately puts the Mirage s8 on my list (small form factor and $200 each new shipped).

Just for reference heres the freqs for the mains center surrounds (eventually rears will be added) and the mirage s8:

main 38Hz - 20kHz center 80Hz - 20kHz
surround/rears 49Hz - 20kHz

mirage s8 27Hz-120Hz. 100 Watts RMS, 400 Watts Dynamic Power (times two) price is so good on these that I may even go four subs at a later date (I can start with two immediately tho, for a 5.2 system). Just worried I might not be getting low enough with this mirage regardless of the number of subs I can cram in a room (and cover the power needs of a medium sized room)

Mirage 8" $200 each
Energy 10" $300 each 32Hz-140Hz 400 Watts dynamic, 150 Watts continuous
HSU 8" $300 each Bass extension 32 Hz 150 Watts

TypeA
08-16-2010, 06:05 AM
Can everyone take a look at this latest comparison and give me some feedback (post above). the s8 is looking better and better in terms of freqs and price and form factor. Last post was updated with the numbers for the subs in the running. Thanks again for all the help guys, its been great.

pixelthis
08-16-2010, 01:54 PM
Can everyone take a look at this latest comparison and give me some feedback (post above). the s8 is looking better and better in terms of freqs and price and form factor. Last post was updated with the numbers for the subs in the running. Thanks again for all the help guys, its been great.

One last entry, if you care more about HT than music(although they play music well also)
is the line of Deftech (DEFINITIVE TECHNOLOGY).
They make some highly engineered sat-sub systems that work great in a smaller room, also some full size towers that rock pretty good, some with built in subs.:1:

luvtolisten
08-16-2010, 02:35 PM
If this system will be 90% movies, 10% music can I really get away with an 8"? Music performance is very important to me, but ultimately not at the cost of movies.

Mirage 8" $200 each
Energy 10" $300 each 32Hz-140Hz 400 Watts dynamic, 150 Watts continuous
HSU 8" $300 each Bass extension 32 Hz 150 Watts

That being the case, my vote would be:
1) Energy 10" It'll still be good for music, but would give you a little more umph for HT.
2) HSU 8- Good musical sub, known mainly for subs although their satellites have gained some praise recently.Plus their service is good too, some folks have actually talked to the big boss, Dr. Hsu.(made in Califronia).
3) Mirage 8, don't know much about this sub, but just my opinion, seems like Mirage has slipped a bit, stuff is okay, average I'd say. Why would you want 4 subs anyway?

I think the Energy is a front firing sub, the HSU is down firing, don't think it matters so much sonically, just a matter of preference I believe. Myself I prefer down firing, just easier (for me anyway) to set up,I can have facing any direction without any change in sound, less chance of a stray foot or cat modifying it.

blackraven
08-16-2010, 04:15 PM
I use an old 8" Velodyne sub with 180watts rms in a 17x17x10' room with plenty of room shaking, chest pounding tight bass. Most HT guys get carried away with the size of a sub. Give me a good 8" sub any day over a cheaper 10".

How big is your room Type A?

Given your budget, I would strongly consider the Emotiva 10". I like the fact that its a sealed sub with no ports. Bass should be nice and tight and probably more musical. Cheaper subs with ports tend to have sloppier bass.

TypeA
08-16-2010, 04:22 PM
Why would you want 4 subs anyway?.

Thanks for the recommendations. Wanted multiple just for what Ive been reading at these sources:


We are always preaching the more subs the better in a home theater system (particularly two to four) for a variety of reasons such as; smoother bass response across a wider listening area and increased dynamic range.

This is accomplished via proper placement and set-up of multiple subwoofers resulting in standing wave reduction through destructive interference.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-connection-guide


Multiple subwoofers can manage a flatter general response since they can often be arranged to excite room modes more evenly than a single subwoofer, allowing equalisation to be more effective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer


Typically I use two subwoofers in my listening room positioned in opposite corners of the room, which is a significant improvement over one. I recently reviewed a subwoofer system with four separate subwoofers powered by the same amp and experienced even better bass reproduction almost everywhere in the room. While four subs may seem like overkill, even two subwoofers provide much better bass than a single sub.

http://stereos.about.com/od/optimizingperformance/a/multiplesubs.htm

TypeA
08-16-2010, 04:23 PM
How give is your room Type A?



Thanks for the recommendation. I dont understand this question, sorry, very rookie.

blackraven
08-16-2010, 04:25 PM
OOPs, type error.

How big is your room, what are the dimensions?

TypeA
08-16-2010, 04:38 PM
Im moving middle of next year, so its likely this will be the smallest room this system sees (its the smallest living room Ive ever had). I also probably wont upgrade the audio in my theater for a decade. Existing room is 10' wide by 20' long but Im building this system based on a medium room.

luvtolisten
08-16-2010, 05:07 PM
Thanks for the links Type A, I've been enlightened. I thought 2 subs was a no no, but apparently not, as long as they are both the same.

JoeE SP9
08-16-2010, 08:20 PM
When I decided to build my TL subs I listened to the Pass Labs DIY people. I built two subs as they recommended.

They were right!!!!! Two subs are much better. They are more than the sum of their parts. I use 4 subs for movies. The sub that came with my Spectra's is actually 2 subs in a common box. It's connected to my rear speakers.

TypeA
08-17-2010, 08:16 AM
Speaker trigger pull begins on thursday...any final thoughts on my prices or selections?

All prices include shipping and tax.

Everything new and from factory authorized.

Infinity
P362--------------------$204.99 each (2) (order sunday)
PC350------------------$199.99 each (1) (order thursday)
P162----------------------$99.99 each (2) (order thrusday)

Energy
ESW-C10---------------$230.00 each (2) (order sunday)
----------------------------------------------------
Total 5.2 speakers------$1269.95

Panasonic
DMP-BD55-----------------$299.99 (received)

Marantz
SR7002---------------------$599.99 (received)
RC3001---------------------$ 0 (received)
---------------------------------------------------
Total hardware----------$899.98

Grand Total August 2010 upgrade-------$2169.93

luvtolisten
08-17-2010, 08:22 AM
The price for the speakers look very reasonable. I can think of other brands, but nothing as good with those prices. Enjoy!

TypeA
08-17-2010, 08:55 AM
Since I will be starting out with a minimum of two subs would twin 8" be better for me than twin 10"? Will an 8" blend (sound? work?) better with my Infinity primus selection (P362, PC350, P162)?

A few quick reminders:
Im building this system for a medium-sized room not the 10x20 Im in now.

Though it will be used primarily for home theater I do not want theater performance to compromise musical performance, if possible.

Form factor is a biggie, so much so that it ruled out many fine subs in my price bracket. Part of this expectation is because this system will never see less than two subs operational.

Music tastes include rock. Guess I better include the gf, country and hip-hop.

TypeA
08-17-2010, 03:41 PM
I can get a Velodyne VDR10 for the same price as a Energy ESW- c10...which is better?
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549189032?i_c=DOD_549189032_122909

blackraven
08-17-2010, 04:18 PM
If you are going to buy 2 subs for close to $600, I would consider buying a good sub for $600 or a used very good sub for that price.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html

TypeA
08-17-2010, 04:23 PM
Id pay 460 (shipped) for the pair, velodyn or energy

TypeA
08-17-2010, 06:21 PM
If you are going to buy 2 subs for close to $600, I would consider buying a good sub for $600 or a used very good sub for that price.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html
Disregard. I learned my lesson, Ill go with a single HSU VTF-2 MK 3...sorry for being such a bone-head on this matter.