Vintage and Rosy: The Ariston RD 11S

[poppachubby]

I told myself I wouldn't write anything so soon after hooking up my new table. Frankly, my head is in the clouds. I just want to listen and not have to think too much, let alone describe everything I am hearing.

I have made a sizable jump with this upgrade. As a main deck, I was using a highly modded Pioneer PL-516. It was a good workhorse, and did a fine job. But now that I am listening to the Ariston, I realise the Pioneer is a vain attempt at analog.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4563715318_dee1ea02a9_z.jpg

The best analogy I can think of, is that someone has opened up a tap from a small drip, to a gushing stream. My gear has never sounded so good. I am feeling quite proud of my selections now, the synergy is off the chain. I am experiencing the type of sound I used to envy in other's systems, which is an exciting proposition.

Mr. Peabody, if you're reading this, you are right. The source is everything, I agree with you fully now.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4079/4888852848_02d144c50e_z.jpg

Overall, the immediacy of my system has virtually doubled. This stems from detail and seperation which excels beyond what I previously had. On that note, the front running players are front and center, with a larger sense of depth behind them. Far more space around everyone for that matter. My Missions are shining at what they do best, imaging.

Aside from the technical ecstacy. I would say the next biggest plus has to be the gorgeous tone. Yes, rosy and warm as everyone knows this table to be. I also think my Golden Tube is combining to help things. Now when I say warm, don't be fooled. I am talking about thick sounding notes. Piano, guitar, sax...it doesn't matter. They all sound full, and this lends to a sense of realism that is worlds beyond.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4078/4888858640_e82d00e548_z.jpg

The PL-41 arm tracks wonderfully. It's much lighter than I have experienced. It's tricky to balance, I must get a digital force guage. I would like to put a ProJect Carbon 9cc on it. My favorite combo is the Linn LP12 and the 9cc.

Right now I am listening to a South American group from the Andes. Beautiful mid tempo guitar and pan flutes. The flute players are so breathy, and it's all wonderfully audible and realistic sounding.

http://www.recordstore.co.uk/images/covers/cookingvinyl/GUMBOCD016-300.jpg

Anyhow, I could go on forever. I feel like I have had my head in the sand. That said, I also feel like I have arrived to a level that's beyond just respectable. I think I have compiled a system that is well rounded and complete. There's plenty here for both SS and tube fans to enjoy.

[JoeE SP9]

I'm happy for you. Welcome to the land of "rubber band" drive. Thats what a friend called my VPI when he first laid eyes on it. He was using a DD Kenwood and actually laughed at my HW-19 Jr. He started spouting specs and told me the better wow and flutter and speed deviation figures made his DD Kenwood better.

I then played some vinyl.:cool: He stopped laughing. He now has a Music Hall MMF 5.1.

[poppachubby]

Thanks Joe. Yes, we both visit AK enough to know the "specs crowd" are a funny one.

[frenchmon]

Pops I am glad you are having fun...nothing like it.

Here is a scale and calibration weight for you to consider. They cost very little. I got a tip from JRA and they have worked out fine for me. I set my tracking according to the book by MH but once I got the digital scale and weight I had no idea that I was off by a lots. So check them out if you don't have another in mind.

American Weigh 600g x 0.1 Digital Gram Coin Pocket Scale Mini Accurate Gold

50-Gram Chrome Scale Calibration Weight

I paid less the $12 dollars for both but I think they have gone up about $2 dollars since I last ordered mine July 16.

You can find them both at Amazon.com

I'll raise my glass in honor of your new excitement tonight.

Cheers.

[frenchmon]

Pops is it posible to take a picture from the top if its not to much trouble? And can you add your own interconnects to the table? And what other mods are you planing on doing besides a better arm? Are you going to do any motor cleaning?

[frenchmon]

What Cart are you now using o the Ariston?

[poppachubby]

I am using an unknown Audio technica cart, it came with the table. It's model number isn't visible when installed. Sounds friggin amazing however. I will be mounting my Blue POint soon.

As for mods, the seller already damped the plinth. The interior was well maintained, no corrossion, etc. Yes, I will put better cabling on it. Vampire Wire and Cardas plugs. I want to put a Carbon 9cc arm on it as well.

You'll have to wait for your photo friend, I am busy with the kids tonight.

[frenchmon]

You'll have to wait for your photo friend, I am busy with the kids tonight.

I understand family time all to well....but I am sneaking out tonight. Going to see MrP's new toys and let him take a listen to the Mordaunt Short Avanti 902i stand mount speakers.

[02audionoob]

This is what audio is all about. You are seriously the man, Chubbs.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/waynesworld.jpg

[matthewp]

Thanks Joe. Yes, we both visit AK enough to know the "specs crowd" are a funny one.
You ain't kiddin

[JohnMichael]

Very nice table I must say. I will be anxious to read about the progression through tweaks and cartridges.

[jrhymeammo]

I, for one, do not think belt drive is inferior to DD turntables. But don't we all have enough experience and knowledge to know by now that tonearms have huge impact on how analog setup sounds.....?

Congrats again on your TT, Poppa. Just to be clear, I'm not stating that your Ariston came with a bad tonearm.
I just think dissing on DD TTs make you guys sound foolish. Then again, we(including myself) all think the gear we currently own is the greatest thing on earth.

[02audionoob]

I, for one, do not think belt drive is inferior to DD turntables. But don't we all have enough experience and knowledge to know by now that tonearms have huge impact on how analog setup sounds.....?

Congrats again on your TT, Poppa. Just to be clear, I'm not stating that your Ariston came with a bad tonearm.
I just think dissing on DD TTs make you guys sound foolish. Then again, we(including myself) all think the gear we currently own is the greatest thing on earth.

I don't think they're "dissing on DD TTs". They're dissing on the people who are dissing on belt-drive TTs because of the wow and flutter specs. Go look around at AK and you'll see it.

[jrhymeammo]

I don't think they're "dissing on DD TTs". They're dissing on the people who are dissing on belt-drive TTs because of the wow and flutter specs. Go look around at AK and you'll see it.

Thanks, I'll send you a PM.

[poppachubby]

He's right J. I own a Technics SL Q2 which I will probably never sell. I just hate people who think that specs actually determine the end result when infact it's ears that do.

[E-Stat]

The best analogy I can think of, is that someone has opened up a tap from a small drip, to a gushing stream. My gear has never sounded so good. I am feeling quite proud of my selections now, the synergy is off the chain. I am experiencing the type of sound I used to envy in other's systems, which is an exciting proposition.
Congratulations. Naturally, I may be a bit biased because I bought mine new in 1976 replacing a Technics SL-110. It is a close cousin of the Linn Sondek LP-12 both having been originally designed by Hamish Robertson using many of the same parts. There is a pic of mine with a SME in the gallery.

To get the optimum performance, however, you are going to need to fine tune the suspension. From the pictures, it doesn't appear to be balanced. You must perfectly balance first the turntable itself, then the platter assembly which can take some trial and error. If you don't already have a bubble level, I recommend you do so with this table. You will also want to replace the power cord which is an easy task. The two leads are attached to a mounting block via set screws. Using a larger gauge shielded cable will drop the noise level further.

Unless you want to later spend some serious money, the Ariston should last you a very long time. In the thirty some years I've had mine, I've lubricated the motor a number of times and replaced the unusual square profile belt once. Windex and baby powder work to clean and improve the traction. Replacements can be readily found here. (http://www.elexatelier.com/ariston.htm)

Good luck!

rw

[poppachubby]

Thanks Ralph. I'll get on the balancing pronto...

The seller just bought a brand new belt from LPGear, the proper square type. It was still packaged when he gave it to me.

I have a really nice AR cable, but it's rather long. Will this matter or play into anything negative?

[02audionoob]

Thanks Ralph. I'll get on the balancing pronto...

The seller just bought a brand new belt from LPGear, the proper square type. It was still packaged when he gave it to me.

I have a really nice AR cable, but it's rather long. Will this matter or play into anything negative?

How long is the cable?

[JoeE SP9]

PC, it's the capacitance of the cable that matters. It effects the high frequency roll off. Most MC carts a much less sensitive to capacitive loading.

Shure used to include the recommended capacitive loading for their carts as part of the specs.

[02audionoob]

Some of the high-output MC cartridges designed for 47k Ohm are exceptions to the general tendency for MC cartridges to be for practical purposes immune to capacitance changes. Sumiko's manual for the Blue Point No.2 (http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sumikocartridges/idx_manuals.htm) says this:



If your receiver or pre-amp has capacitance loading capabilities, a Sumiko high output moving coil cartridge should be loaded with a value no higher than 200pf, and ideally below 100pf.

[poppachubby]

Guys, are we all talking about power cables? My AR cable is 10 feet long, 14 guage and polarized.

[02audionoob]

Guess not. I was thinking interconnects.

[frenchmon]

Pops...thanks for the knowledge of this table. As you know...one of my future purchases will be a new or another table....I've been doing a lots of reading about it....its now on my radar as well.

[JoeE SP9]

Guess not. I was thinking interconnects.

Me too. I hadn't thought power cable length was an issue.

[poppachubby]

Me too. I hadn't thought power cable length was an issue.


OK! So it's not then. In all honesty, aside from leveling it, I am not in a rush to mod anything as of yet. It does infact have the original power cable on it.



Pops...thanks for the knowledge of this table. As you know...one of my future purchases will be a new or another table....I've been doing a lots of reading about it....its now on my radar as well.

Thanks frenchie, but I've only reiterated what's already known. To say this table is a value is a gross understatement. At $300, even with the PL-41 arm I am competitive up to the $1K range. Of course, that's a hit and miss proposition, but still...competitive.

You would do a backflip if you heard this thing through your system. It's tables like this that have formed my opinions in this hobby, and have created my love for analog over digital. I can barely look at my CDP's, and my CD rack seems to be saying, "Hey Pops, over here..."

[poppachubby]

Here's a good question. Should I offer this table extra isolation? Of course it never hurts, but do you guys think it's necessary? I'll have to try a week with and a week without.

[frenchmon]

I would build one anyway....it cant hurt and in my opinion a nice TT looks good sitting on some kind of table made for it.

[hifitommy]

one of the great things about arms with a detachable headshell is the ease with which one can swap carts. all you need to do is realign the BP on the ariston. dont be surprised if the AT is hard to beat with the BP. as i have said before, the BP has limitations.

i would act on the digital scale frenchy is mentioning. once you use it, it will be like pulling teeth to get you to use a shure gauge.

DD tables can be very good such as the goldmund or rockport sirius (seriously?). usually though, belt drives outperform DDs sonically for much less money. dont get me wrong, i have a ken wood kd500/grace 707 and enjoy it for its ease of use.

as for a bubble level---i say get a good torpedo style and set balance in first left to right and then front to back and youre done. the round levels are frustrating.

a tonearm cable should be as short as possible to keep from adding capacitance into the equation unnecessarily.

unless you have wooden floors (likely in canada where a basement is fairly standard) where footfalls cause a disruption in stability, additional isolation may not be necessary. a wall mounted tt shelf is one of the best for that application. here in so-cal, most of us have cement slab floors which mostly obviate that problem.

the arm i would look for would have either detachable headshells or changeable arm wands unless staying with the same cartridge all the time is OK with you. it isnt for me.

[poppachubby]

Thanks for the input guys. First thing I will do is level the platter/plinth. I have DL'd a manual to familiarize myself before working. I think I'll book some time this Thurs./Fri. as my wife and kids are out of the house. I'll probably swap out the power cable while I'm at it.

I will have to get a digital scale. It was also suggested to me to get a lighter counterweight. We'll see.

Much more maintenance involved with a proper deck.

Tommy I don't know if I could live with just one cart either. However, I definitely want a better arm down the road. Which arms would you suggest that have a headshell? I will consider them with my research.

Aside from the ProJect, I like the Rega RB 250/300, Sumiko MMT and SME 3009.

[hifitommy]

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Series-300-1332.shtml

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Series-M2-1331.shtml

above are two arms by SME, not cheap. both have removable headshells not of the universal type and sure to cost at least $100 each for the shells alone.

http://cgis.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?searchstring=jelco+&B1=go

above is the search of jelco in a'gon.

and one on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jelco-SA-370H-Tonearm-Ichikawa-turntable-tone-arm-/120598340861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

those arms are more affordable and take universal shells for which the sumiko hs12 (made by jelco) is a natural, and one of the best headshells out there.

there are some wooden ortofon headshells available and the orsonics which are spectacular to look at and highly sought after.

graham arms take a removable wand and the arm is like $4k, wands $2-4 (i think).

the expensive dynavector arm takes a universal shell.

for fixed headshell arms, i would try to get one thats easily removable from the tt which means it shouldnt nave a captive wire like the regas. grace arms like the 707 are like that. then the arm can be removed for cartridge swapping. its one of the things i love about MY 707. i just turn it over and prop it with some heavy items (cans fo food work well) so the cart can be mounted conveniently.

[poppachubby]

Cool, thanks Tommy I'll check all of that out.

BTW, the cart that came with the deck is an AT VM8-HII. From the quality of the sound, I am guessing it has the shibata in it.

Any experience with this cart? It sounds glorious.

[poppachubby]

OK not a bad start. I replaced the power cable with a low noise, 14 awg AR cable.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4911876534_bcf1491a64.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4095/4912054852_414943d548.jpg


I cleaned the DIN connection...


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4911272319_b7ff7e77a5.jpg


...and most importantly got the platter levelled. Well, sort of...


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4911877806_6757228e2d.jpg



...it's far from perfect but improved. I can't believe what a joke the bottom cover is. Must have blown the budget at this point...


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4911276325_91b00d0b8e.jpg

[JohnMichael]

The Funk Firm in England does some great mods for the Linn and I thought some might fit your table. Maybe even give that fertile imagination of yours some good ideas.

http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/turntable_upgrades/LP12_Upgrade.html

[hifitommy]

about the AT VM8-HII cart pop, at made so many that it isnt even in the VE database.

rather than going with the BP or the unknown AT, i might look at comet supply:

http://www.cometsupply.com/?mn=DENON

for some reasonably priced denon MCs.

[E-Stat]

OK not a bad start. I replaced the power cable with a low noise, 14 awg AR cable...I cleaned the DIN connection...and most importantly got the platter levelled. Well, sort of...
The force is with you! Leveling is not an intuitive process with the three controls. Remember to level the plinth first (mine required shims at the rear), then level the platter and check at different points along the outside of it. You want some spring, but not so floaty that the motor rubs the sub-platter. From the side, the line of the platter should be parallel to the plinth. You might also want to clean the belt with WindX where most likely the cloth will be blackened. Then put a light coat of talc powder on it. For cosmetics, you might want to get some metal polish for the platter to get it shining again.

Yeah, the bottom is a joke. I removed mine when I still had big hair. :)

rw

[poppachubby]

The force is with you! Leveling is not an intuitive process with the three controls. Remember to level the plinth first (mine required shims at the rear), then level the platter and check at different points along the outside of it. You want some spring, but not so floaty that the motor rubs the sub-platter. From the side, the line of the platter should be parallel to the plinth. You might also want to clean the belt with WindX where most likely the cloth will be blackened. Then put a light coat of talc powder on it. For cosmetics, you might want to get some metal polish for the platter to get it shining again.

Yeah, the bottom is a joke. I removed mine when I still had big hair. :)

rw

The real issue I am finding is getting it to bounce straight up and down. When you confirm the bounce, where do you push it Ralph? It would seem pushing it at one end is not going to allow it to go up and down. I was using the spot in between the mount and the platter.

Anyhow, cumbersome is an understatement. I was chatting with an English fellow at AK who said he wasn't satisfied for a year! I hope I can nail it before that.

BTW, I am not kidding, the power cable made a difference. I have been using my Robbie Robertson LP through this whole process. Indeed more info is audible in the opening of "Fallen Angel". I also found that I could turn down the volume a bit and still get alot of clarity coming through.

http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/wigs/big-afro.jpg

[E-Stat]

The real issue I am finding is getting it to bounce straight up and down.
When you think about it, the platter can never really bounce directly up and down. Since the arm board is part of the suspended structure and weighs less, there will always be a bit of lateral motion. My objective is to make it float just above the "scrape" setting where there is some rebound settling time.


When you confirm the bounce, where do you push it Ralph? It would seem pushing it at one end is not going to allow it to go up and down. I was using the spot in between the mount and the platter.
In a short 2.5 mb video, I'll try both at the spindle and out further on the platter. Towards the end, I press it a touch too much and you'll hear the scrape. But it is level in all planes and allows for free movement. This (http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/platter.mp4) might help give you an idea. Unfortunately, lighting is not exactly great in the garage closet!


I hope I can nail it before that.
You will. While I don't suggest my approach is the best, I set the springs at full soft where the platter would drag the motor. Then raise enough for consistent clearance and balance.


BTW, I am not kidding, the power cable made a difference. I have been using my Robbie Robertson LP through this whole process. Indeed more info is audible in the opening of "Fallen Angel".
I discovered the same when I started experimenting with aftermarket cords about ten years ago. Indeed the difference lies with lowering the noise floor which is evident only during soft passages. I run the table through a power conditioner as well.



I also found that I could turn down the volume a bit and still get alot of clarity coming through.
You have discovered what I consider to be the hallmark of a high resolution system. As mine have gotten better, I find that lower levels can provide as satisfying an experience when I'm not in a rowdy "gotta crank it" mood. Even when played measurably loud, they should never "sound" loud - if that makes any sense.

rw

[poppachubby]

When you think about it, the platter can never really bounce directly up and down. Since the arm board is part of the suspended structure and weighs less, there will always be a bit of lateral motion. My objective is to make it float just above the "scrape" setting where there is some rebound settling time.


In a short 2.5 mb video, I'll try both at the spindle and out further on the platter. Towards the end, I press it a touch too much and you'll hear the scrape. But it is level in all planes and allows for free movement. This (http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/platter.mp4) might help give you an idea. Unfortunately, lighting is not exactly great in the garage closet!


You will. While I don't suggest my approach is the best, I set the springs at full soft where the platter would drag the motor. Then raise enough for consistent clearance and balance.


I discovered the same when I started experimenting with aftermarket cords about ten years ago. Indeed the difference lies with lowering the noise floor which is evident only during soft passages. I run the table through a power conditioner as well.



You have discovered what I consider to be the hallmark of a high resolution system. As mine have gotten better, I find that lower levels can provide as satisfying an experience when I'm not in a rowdy "gotta crank it" mood. Even when played measurably loud, they should never "sound" loud - if that makes any sense.

rw

Thanks for the link Ralph, but I don't have Quicktime on my comp. I take it you use a Mac? I know you're a computer guy.

It's funny, all of my work has really culminated in the last month. I have taken the CDP out of the reference system, it's a fruitless endeavour until I upgrade.

That said, if you recall I have a dedicated circuit for my analog, and one for my digital. I am certainly reaping the benefits of that now.

Here's the thread from AK, have a read and tell me what you think. Your advice is a tad more practical I think... http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316041

Anyhow, I will go back into the Ariston after the kids are in bed, and tweak again.

Oh and one more thing, the new plug I put in is polarized, what does this mean for wiring inside the Ariston? I have the black lead in the hole which shares another, the white lead in the last hole, at the end of the row. I think I am getting some hum, ground issue. Can this be fixed by reversing the leads?

[E-Stat]

Thanks for the link Ralph, but I don't have Quicktime on my comp. I take it you use a Mac? I know you're a computer guy.
No, I use Win7. While my camera captured the video in an .avi format, it was triple the size of an .mp4. I use a free app called "Handbrake" which performs the conversion and allows for creating videos for my iPhone. My Windows Media player works with the .mp4 format as well. Maybe you just need to update your version. I really don't like the QT player.


Here's the thread from AK, have a read and tell me what you think. Your advice is a tad more practical I think...
melofelo (Mellow fellow?) offered some useful guidance although I suspect his unit is different enough that the path to optimization is similarly different. In the end, we both agree that " the optimum setting for the platter is to get it as low as possible without 'shortcircuiting' the suspension... i.e. it still bounces freely with a very light tap.."


Oh and one more thing, the new plug I put in is polarized, what does this mean for wiring inside the Ariston? ... Can this be fixed by reversing the leads?
As is mine because I used a three conductor Hubbell plug. I would experiment with each orientation to find what works best since sometimes you will find an outlet that is not oriented correctly. I have a tester which has three lights which tell you whether or not such is the case. If you have a VOM, here (http://www.boundforsound.com/tweak.htm) is a procedure to test for minimum voltage across the outlet's ground and the turntable chassis.

rw

[poppachubby]

Thanks!! Great article. Of course I have a VOM, my amp relies on it. I'll let you know how it goes...

[JoeE SP9]

Pops using Windos is no reason not to have Quicktime installed. I have it installed on all my PC's. I tried a lot of software when I was building my music server. I tried iTunes, Songbird and Foobar. I also tried a bunch of players including Winamp, MP10 and Media Monkey.