How much bass output do typical acoustic recordings have?

[theaudiohobby]

I have thinking about this lately, how much low ,bass output below 120Hz, do typical acoustic programs such jazz horns, strings go? I know that a piano goes down 27Hz, however those notes are rarely used in practice, same with organs. Looking at recordings in my collections, I doubt many classical and jazz programs go much below ~80Hz, It seems recordings with electronic synthesizers generally go much lower than most acoustic recordings,

what's your opinion on the matter?

[JoeE SP9]

I hope the chart below is helpful.


http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/JoeESP9/freqchart.jpg

[theaudiohobby]

I hope the chart below is helpful.I was looking for something about the typical content of acoustic recordings across a variety of genres as opposed to how low each instrument can go, thanks though.

[recoveryone]

In my opinion, these type of recordings are more of the raw mid range sound that would not venture into the deep lows or ultra highs (Jazz), Opera or Classical music may go beyond due to the nature of the style, For me I enjoy hearing the artist fingers strumming over the strings, or hearing the breathing of a horn player. Just gives a feeling of being right there.

[Hyfi]

I can't give you any numbers but, listen to some Stanley Clarke playing his acoustic, say the disk called Rite of Strings, with Al Dimiola and Jon Luc Ponty all playing acoustic. In a decent setup, you will see some big dynamics from 3 acoustic instruments.

[mlsstl]

The low note on a double (upright) bass is about 41 Hz, though someone can always use an odd tuning. Bassoons, drums, tubas, pipe organs and similar instruments also put out substantial low frequencies.

One thing about the low note on a piano, the 27 Hz figure is slightly deceptive because a substantial portion of that sound is higher overtones that are as loud or perhaps even louder than the fundamental low note. If you play a recording of the low note of a piano on small monitors that perhaps only go down to 50 or 60 Hz, you'll still hear a nice, loud note. It just won't have quite as much "weight" as the real thing.

Large symphony orchestras really need their bottom end to sound right, however a substantial part of that sound comes from the interaction of the low frequencies with the hall itself. This is extremely difficult to recreate accurately in a typical residential room. I've heard some awfully good stereos with some pretty deep bass, but still have never heard one capture the true character of bass info in a large hall.

Contrast that to a small combo with acoustic instruments and it is amazing how lifelike a good recording can sound in your room.

[JoeE SP9]

I was looking for something about the typical content of acoustic recordings across a variety of genres as opposed to how low each instrument can go, thanks though.

It looks as though no one has answered your question. I suspect it's because it's a "new" question.

I'm tempted to answer, "It depends". First you have to define "typical" and maybe even "acoustic". Then there is musical selection. I would imagine that different listeners having different tastes would get different results.
Get a copy of REW (Room Equalization Wizzard) at http://www.hometheatershack.com/ and you can find out for yourself based on your collection.

[theaudiohobby]

It looks as though no one has answered your question. I suspect it's because it's a "new" question.

I'm tempted to answer, "It depends". First you have to define "typical" and maybe even "acoustic". Then there is musical selection. I would imagine that different listeners having different tastes would get different results.
Get a copy of REW (Room Equalization Wizzard) at http://www.hometheatershack.com/ and you can find out for yourself based on your collection.Thanks, I will follow your suggestion and get a copy of REW. For a while now, I get the feeling that in general acoustic programs dip below 70~80Hz only occassionally as opposed to modern synthesized bass programs where going very low is a fairly regular occurence. :21:

[mlsstl]

...I get the feeling that in general acoustic programs dip below 70~80Hz only occassionally...
You should probably refine that into several separate categories of acoustic music.

If you're listening to the early works of Peter, Paul & Mary where it is them singing and two guitars, you're right. If you're a pipe organ aficionado or love large scale orchestral works, your theory is wrong. There is a lot of territory in between those two points.

[JohnMichael]

Just to show how my mind works when I first read the title and part of the post this is what sprang to my mind. Acoustical recordings have a very narrow range of frequencies. Of course it may vary based on the size of horn on your gramophone. An electrical recording of acoustic instruments can cover a very wide range.

http://classicalrecordings.org/zacousticclassics/index.html


Anyway back to the question JBL used to have a demo/test record they gave out at audio shops when they were introducing new models. One of the tracks was to show that as long as a speaker could produce a solid 50hz frequency that should satisfy most music lovers. Of course many tecnological advances have happened since then. I have always found low bass difficult to achieve in my smaller living spaces so I tend to stay away from speakers with low bass and find 50hz is enough for me.

[JoeE SP9]

Any program that does RTA with a Spectrum Analyzer type display will work for determining relative distribution of frequencies. I thought of REW first because I've been using it recently to make my room sound better.

[hifitommy]

by acoustic i am thinking non-electric instruments, no synths or electric guitars etc. the instruments themselves put out freqs like those shown on the above chart but the room the music was recorded in and perhaps the bandstand can affect the perceived bass.

having a subwoofer or truly full range speakers will yield a more accurate sound as the low bass delivers the room more completely and even improves on the imaging to a notciable degree.

[theaudiohobby]

I hope the chart below is helpful.Just had a closer look at the chart and the data is very interesting. Only the Organ, Piano, Tuba, Bass, Harp and Contrabasson go deeper than 50Hz. Remarkably, the lowest fundamentals of the kettle drums is far higher.

[mlsstl]

Just had a closer look at the chart and the data is very interesting. Only the Organ, Piano, Tuba, Bass, Harp and Contrabasson go deeper than 50Hz.
Of course, the immediate rejoinder is there is a heck of a lot of music that includes one or more of the instruments on that short list.

Lest I come off sounding like a bass freak, I have a pair of Spendor SP1/2Es in my main system with no sub. These speakers are not known for their bottom end, but they certainly do a nice job with the music I enjoy. I have a pair of their smaller brother (SP3/1P) in a second system and while one can easily spot the family resemblance, there is a certain "weight" missing from the music on the second system.

Not yet mentioned in this thread, however, is the great variability in recordings when it comes to bass. With some of the older recordings (particularly LPs which had to balance side length against bass content and volume) it seems they are bass shy. CDs, which aren't faced with this compromise, often seem to get too carried away in the opposite direction, especially with rock & pop music.

This variability in the quality of recordings can really complicate finding a good balance in your system set up.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Just had a closer look at the chart and the data is very interesting. Only the Organ, Piano, Tuba, Bass, Harp and Contrabasson go deeper than 50Hz. Remarkably, the lowest fundamentals of the kettle drums is far higher.

Don't forget, large concert bass drums can have fundamentals down around 25hz

[hifitommy]

a good example fo such a drum recording is the telarc relese of pictures at an exhibition by lorin maazel and the cleveland orch. i KNOW telarc has been accused of exaggerating their bass but if you hear one of these live, you will realize that isnt true.

the great gate of kiev hammers this home quite nicely.

the beauty of this recordiing is its combined recorded quality and the performance itself in which the tempos are right on the money. exquisite. get the LP if you can, it sounds the best OR the SACD which is pretty close.

[theaudiohobby]

Don't forget, large concert bass drums can have fundamentals down around 25hzThanks, saw an article on wikipedia about the missing fundamental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental), mls-stl also touched on this issue earlier. The key point that I find interesting is that it say the fundamental frequency of certain instruments is weak in comparison to their harmonics.

[tube fan]

If you compare speakers that go down to 50hz to ones that go down to 30 or 20 hz, you will find that the first set of speakers miss a lot of crucial information. The speakers that go deeper even sound bigger on many records, even ones that would seem to have few deep notes. At the recent California Audio show, I found that very few speakers could play accurately several of my vinyl records. Of course, the "Adgio D'Albinoni", with Gary Karr on double bass and Harmon Lewis on organ was a test only a handfull could pass, and then with a low grade. However, almost all speakers failed to capture the power in such records as Muddy Waters's "folk singer", "Chet" (a small jazz group), and even such "easy" records like "John Contrane and Johnny Hartman". On the speakers that couldn't go deep, the sound was thinner and "washed out". There was a significant difference even on my "Waltz for Debby" Bill Evans record.

BTW, one of the rooms (I forget which one) was playing the "Waltz for Debby" record in higher and higher CD resolution versions. Yes, the sound kept getting better, but when I got them to play my vinyl version, there was still a huge gap between the highest digital and vinyl. Especially in tonal saturation and dynanmics.

[RGA]

I believe you were correct in your first post that synth music can go lower - or with known levels. A friend of mine was a huge car stereo nut and could play so loud so deep that you had to wear headphones while in the car to block out the sound as it could possibly intantly deafen you.

Trance/hip hop/rap kind of stuff can have very deep (syths cover the entire range+) and bass is the name of the game for dance clubs for people to "follow the bass line" which is why you see the kinds of speakers in nightclubs. Big impact bass, big horns. The best of which I have heard in a nightclub was a big set of Tannoy speakers with two 15 or 18 inch drivers and dual concentric. I don't remember the model number as a bunch of Koreans were feeding me Soju all night. Interestingly the brand of Soju was called Jinro which is the baby Ongaku amp.

I believe you can look on forums to find the bass head albums with synth under 20hz. This is where bigger speakers to me always tend to win out. You can't get away from it. For big deep bass at a macro-dynamic level at loud volumes (which is the point) that can hit you in the chest - those big Tannoy speakers are quite awesome. Panels? We don't need no stinking panels. :9: Of course those big speakers don't fit most domestic living spaces so you are kind of forced to go smaller.

I have a couple of Kraftwerk LP's - maybe one of them will go down under 20hz - have not listened to them yet.

[JoeE SP9]

a good example fo such a drum recording is the telarc relese of pictures at an exhibition by lorin maazel and the cleveland orch. i KNOW telarc has been accused of exaggerating their bass but if you hear one of these live, you will realize that isnt true.

the great gate of kiev hammers this home quite nicely.

the beauty of this recordiing is its combined recorded quality and the performance itself in which the tempos are right on the money. exquisite. get the LP if you can, it sounds the best OR the SACD which is pretty close.

Thanks for the reminder!!!

I have it on vinyl. It hasn't been played in some time. I'm going to pull it out a give it a spin.

[E-Stat]

...a good example fo such a drum recording is the telarc relese of pictures at an exhibition by lorin maazel and the cleveland orch.
Others are the Fennell Holst Winds with Cleveland Symphony (very first Telarc) and the Firebird by the ASO. John Cooledge aka JWC from TAS donated a new concert drum for the ASO just for that recording. I had the good fortune of being there during the recording and agree that they can sound impressive. There is a unique way you feel the bass wave waft pass you rather than thumping you like electronic bass.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

I have a half dozen Telarc LP's. The ASO Firebird is my favorite. I have it on CD also and it doesn't do it for me. There is more "there" there on the LP.

[E-Stat]

I have a half dozen Telarc LP's. The ASO Firebird is my favorite. I have it on CD also and it doesn't do it for me. There is more "there" there on the LP.
Dr. Stockham's original Soundstream format was 16/50 (captured on open reel tape) and likely suffered some compromises moving to 16/44. The SACD version is likely better at capturing the original resolution.

rw

[hifitommy]

as much as i like stravinsky, the telarc LP pictures of an exhibitionist by lorin maazel and the cleveland orch is, for me, way preferable than the telarc firebird.

the quintessential performance is complemented by the superlative recording. it is my favorite pictures second only to the tomita version of the same.

be sure to listen all the way through to the great gate of kiev which will tax most any systems low frequency power capability. that is the ONLY area in which the tomita will leave you wanting. and the tomita is the exact opposite of acoustic.

and yes, the sacd is close.

[JoeE SP9]

Thanks tommy. I've been listening to the Pictures LP. It's superlative. I think I'm going to get some SACD's (Firebird and Picture at least) and see how they compare.

[Dual-500]

by acoustic i am thinking non-electric instruments, no synths or electric guitars etc. the instruments themselves put out freqs like those shown on the above chart but the room the music was recorded in and perhaps the bandstand can affect the perceived bass.

having a subwoofer or truly full range speakers will yield a more accurate sound as the low bass delivers the room more completely and even improves on the imaging to a notciable degree.


If you compare speakers that go down to 50hz to ones that go down to 30 or 20 hz, you will find that the first set of speakers miss a lot of crucial information. The speakers that go deeper even sound bigger on many records, even ones that would seem to have few deep notes. At the recent California Audio show, I found that very few speakers could play accurately several of my vinyl records. Of course, the "Adgio D'Albinoni", with Gary Karr on double bass and Harmon Lewis on organ was a test only a handfull could pass, and then with a low grade. However, almost all speakers failed to capture the power in such records as Muddy Waters's "folk singer", "Chet" (a small jazz group), and even such "easy" records like "John Contrane and Johnny Hartman". On the speakers that couldn't go deep, the sound was thinner and "washed out". There was a significant difference even on my "Waltz for Debby" Bill Evans record.

BTW, one of the rooms (I forget which one) was playing the "Waltz for Debby" record in higher and higher CD resolution versions. Yes, the sound kept getting better, but when I got them to play my vinyl version, there was still a huge gap between the highest digital and vinyl. Especially in tonal saturation and dynanmics.
Yes and yes.

Low end bandwidth in a system, as has been alluded to will open up the overall stage - i.e. we will perceive the sound to be larger if you will.

I always like to close my eyes when critical listening to a system - for whatever the scenario may be - autitioning gear to listening to a setup or listening during tuning.

With eyes closed is everything in it's place. Nothing too far back or too far forward? The stage is correct? Playing different program material is always a part of the test - as well as just different engineering/production pieces of similar genre material. Stuff I listen to, favorites, material I'm famiiar with.

Horns are something I always want to hear in the test material as well as a good drum mix and a good vocal mix. Many times it take different material to cover all the bases.

With eyes closed can you see the cymbals? Can you see the horns? I mean visualize them - see the stage lights glistening from the brass. Can you see the guitar? See the strings being plucked?

If it's right it's easy to visualize with eyes closed. Is it a band playing or am I just sitting there with eyes closed listening to a speaker system?

Low end makes this happen. Without it, it's difficult to fake it.

[hifitommy]

i have found that starting with a normal playback level, when you get to the end a the great gate, the bass will pin you to the rear wall on pix, glad you tried it.

[JoeE SP9]

A friend came over while I was playing it. He was very surprised by the "Gate"! I still am.