B&W to be sold in Best Buy

[Ajani]

The time has come:

B&W will be sold at Magnolia Stores (Best Buy's.... ummm... 'High End Division') in North America. If I'm not mistaken B&W is already sold in the recently launched Best Buy stores in the UK...

I know we've had many debates in these forums in the past about whether high end brands should be sold in the big chain stores, but what do you all think about the move by B&W?

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-news/speaker-systems-news/b-w-expands-sales-through-magnolia.html

IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...

[cjpremierfour]

The B&W chairman is exactly right! With the recession killing so many Hi-End stores, it would be a good opportunity for the "mass market people" to get a true taste of Hi-End sound. As some of you already know, you can walk outside any Best Buys and find a car system that has $5 to $10k of audio equipment/ installation cost. Wouldn't you, as a Hi-Fi company want to expose that guy to Hi- End audio at an early age. I hope that more Hi-Fi's will follow B&W's example.

[dakatabg]

WOW, I would love to go and check them out when they have them. They look very good. B&W has never disappointed me!

[LeRoy]

IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi...

I went to a home audio boutique in Austin,TX over the weekend. I was wanting to listen to the IKON 6 but the dealer only had entry level bookshelves from Dali and a few other brands. No way in such small confines and limited cash could he afford to have various floor models to demo. Of course the big box stores have the space, cash, and diversity of other product sales to offset the $$ needed for higher end inventory costs.

I then visited what once was a posh high performance audio store, Modia. Much to my surprise they no longer carry Meridian and Dynaudio. 3 of their once dedicated show rooms were either empty or were a staging area for cardboard boxes. Other dedicated showrooms only had one system. The down economy in general sure has hit this small audio chain pretty hard. They now only carry B&W speakers.

My friend who once had a thriving high performance audio shop based out of his home here in S.A.,TX, only gets a call or two from a customer every few week... for all intents and purposed, his biz is dead and buried.

[RGA]

The concern I have with such moves for the company is that once they leave the high end stores the high end stores will right them off as home theater junk. Whether they believe it or not won't be the issue - B&W will not likely be able to "go back" to the high end dealers.

And maybe the thinking is no big deal but it could come up and bite them in the butt. Why? because big billion dollar box chains make demands and usually those demands are to lower prices. If B&W comes in there with $3,000 standmounts chances are no one is going to bite. Not enough anyway. Best Buy and Future Shop will not put up with carrying lines of products that don't move in mass quantities - those chains are ONLY interested in moving as many boxes as fast as humanly possible. They will want the price dropped to $1200 and then $800 and B&W is going to have to sell at those prices. That could mean cutting corners and cheaping out.

Here in Western Canada Totem was not selling well at all in high end shops. Competition is too good. So they went into A&B Sound a large big box chain and I saw there prices drop like a stone. $2600 for Mani-2, $700 for Arro, etc. Once they went to the big box chains the high end dealers dumped them and found something else. The bridge was burned. A&B Sound went bankrupt - Totem was sold at about 20 dealers in BC and now there are two outlets who carry them. And one of them is tiny. The other may have picked them up because they are big B&W sellers and will probably need something to replace them.

B&W may be big enough to offset this where Totem is fairly small. B&W also has a full spread of home theater - really they're all about home theater and style products so they probably fit the big box chain better than any other big speaker company.

[winston]

thanks for the tip (Ajani) maybe by next year sometime I'll get lucky finding a floor model, with about eight best buy within five to fifty miles of my Zip code "all south Florida welcome that news?!! I'm so looking forward to audition one of the (floor standing models)

[Woochifer]

I think this is the only move they could have made. The home audio component market has been shrinking since 1992, and right now revenues from the iPod alone are more than triple the sales of all home audio components combined.

And this has been bourne out on the retail side as well. With the demise of Circuit City, Best Buy is now the only national electronics retailer left (aside from Radio Shack, which hardly sells home audio components). But, what's really driving B&W to Best Buy is the rapid disappearance of the regional specialty audio/video chains.

In California, just within the past year, you've had Andersons and Ken Crane go out of business. Those were regional home theater specialists that carried B&W. Before that, you had the demise of Good Guys and Tweeter, both of which carried numerous high end brands. Tweeter in particular entered several markets by acquiring other regional chains, so their bankruptcy affected the supply chain for several regions across the country. And I haven't even mentioned the numerous independent audio/video stores that have also gone out of business.

You could make the argument that the disappearance of regional specialty chains just opens up an opportunity for somebody else. And indeed it has. The strongest specialty player right now is Magnolia ... which just happens to be owned by Best Buy, and has been on an aggressive national expansion over the past few years.

With regional audio/video chains disappearing right and left, and indies dropping out as well, who else is B&W going to do business with? They've always had a strong network of dealers, but when that base erodes, they damn well better have a backup plan. Best Buy right now is the 800 lb. gorilla on the retail side, so B&W has basically solidified their market presence in one move.

[PeruvianSkies]

The B&W chairman is exactly right! With the recession killing so many Hi-End stores, it would be a good opportunity for the "mass market people" to get a true taste of Hi-End sound. As some of you already know, you can walk outside any Best Buys and find a car system that has $5 to $10k of audio equipment/ installation cost. Wouldn't you, as a Hi-Fi company want to expose that guy to Hi- End audio at an early age. I hope that more Hi-Fi's will follow B&W's example.

You mean the people who spend more money on the car audio system than the car itself as it thumps down the street during one of it's many passings trying to pick up chicks?

[PeruvianSkies]

The time has come:

B&W will be sold at Magnolia Stores (Best Buy's.... ummm... 'High End Division') in North America. If I'm not mistaken B&W is already sold in the recently launched Best Buy stores in the UK...

I know we've had many debates in these forums in the past about whether high end brands should be sold in the big chain stores, but what do you all think about the move by B&W?

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-news/speaker-systems-news/b-w-expands-sales-through-magnolia.html

IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...


They might start carrying the speakers, but will they actually hire people who can sell them and know what they are talking about?

If they really want to make a go of it, they need to go all out and really carry higher end stuff in order to make it worthwhile for true audiophiles and enthusiasts to check things out.

[Woochifer]

The concern I have with such moves for the company is that once they leave the high end stores the high end stores will right them off as home theater junk. Whether they believe it or not won't be the issue - B&W will not likely be able to "go back" to the high end dealers.

What high end dealers would they go back to? There's a massive consolidation going on right in many forms of retailing, with electronics very prominent.

Best Buy has played the market better than anybody, and acquiring the Seattle-based Magnolia Hi-Fi chain back in 2000 was one of their best moves. It got them in business with the top rated specialty audio/video retailer in North America, and it got them in with high end companies like Krell, Martin Logan, B&K, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, and REL. They've been seeding the market for the past decade, and once competing specialty chains (all of whom carried high end brands, including B&W) either consolidated and went out of business, Magnolia was able to move in and capture the market. B&W knows this, and that's why they're now playing ball with Best Buy.

You're right that high end retailers don't like supporting their competitors, but the lessons from JBL's botched entry into mass merchandiser channels have been learned by other brands that used to only be sold through specialty stores. Plus, right now you have a very different retail landscape than existed before. It has nothing to do with retailers writing off brands as junk when they go into mass merchandise stores, it has to do with survival by trying to find the niches that places like Best Buy don't cover.


And maybe the thinking is no big deal but it could come up and bite them in the butt. Why? because big billion dollar box chains make demands and usually those demands are to lower prices. If B&W comes in there with $3,000 standmounts chances are no one is going to bite. Not enough anyway.

I think you're making the false assumption that the volumes are going to zoom through the roof just because they're carried by Best Buy. First off, the Magnolia sections are not in every Best Buy store. Second, the highest volume speakers will still be the lowest priced ones.

B&W is insulated from the volume pressures because they are in the Magnolia sections, and displayed alongside other offerings from Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, Boston Acoustics, and Definitive Technology. The Magnolia stores inside of Best Buy do not carry the highest end models, so that basically keeps B&W in good stead with its indie retailers.


Best Buy and Future Shop will not put up with carrying lines of products that don't move in mass quantities - those chains are ONLY interested in moving as many boxes as fast as humanly possible. They will want the price dropped to $1200 and then $800 and B&W is going to have to sell at those prices. That could mean cutting corners and cheaping out.

The Magnolia sections are all about high margin, which is the exact same lifeblood as an indie store. Best Buy has had the past decade to plan out and identify the right balance between volumes and margins for their Magnolia subsidiary. They know that shoppers who venture into the Magnolia sections are not mass market customers looking for iPod docks.

[Mr Peabody]

As I was saying before the storm so rudely took my electric out briefly. Coincidently I visited my first Magnolia inside BB today. I have to say I was impressed, not because it was so great but because it wasn't as you all speculate. First of all an attractive young lady offered to help us who actually knew her stuff. Not sure if this is the Norm but good first impression. If the Martin Logan pricing is an example BB does not whore the prices out, ML was in line with their website and Amazon. So a manufacturer, at least some, can still control their price. They only had so much space so they used a switcher but the speakers were paired off along three of the walls with electronics on one wall, a circular seat where you can face the speakers you want to hear. What they need are some separates, speakers like Vienna Acoustics, Martin Logan and B&W need more than a receiver in some instances. They even had a ProJect turntable hooked to a Yamaha integrated and the turntable was ready to go, she even played a couple tracks from a Dave Matthews LP to show off the ML Source speakers. So although not the ideal showroom Magnolia was far from the worst I've been in.

B&W could follow Klipsch's business plan and only give certain series of product. Rockford formerly only a boutique line successfully sold out to any big box store that would have them and remained in the boutique stores. Quite an achievement almost any store that sold car audio sold Rockford. I was told by a reliable source Rockford was able to keep boutique support by offering better price margins to the boutiques. So we will have to see what B&W in BB becomes. Maybe they will only sell them headphones and Ipod docks. This is a bad down turn the economy took and it doesn't show improvement on the street yet.

[Ajani]

As I was saying before the storm so rudely took my electric out briefly. Coincidently I visited my first Magnolia inside BB today. I have to say I was impressed, not because it was so great but because it wasn't as you all speculate. First of all an attractive young lady offered to help us who actually knew her stuff. Not sure if this is the Norm but good first impression. If the Martin Logan pricing is an example BB does not whore the prices out, ML was in line with their website and Amazon. So a manufacturer, at least some, can still control their price. They only had so much space so they used a switcher but the speakers were paired off along three of the walls with electronics on one wall, a circular seat where you can face the speakers you want to hear. What they need are some separates, speakers like Vienna Acoustics, Martin Logan and B&W need more than a receiver in some instances. They even had a ProJect turntable hooked to a Yamaha integrated and the turntable was ready to go, she even played a couple tracks from a Dave Matthews LP to show off the ML Source speakers. So although not the ideal showroom Magnolia was far from the worst I've been in.

B&W could follow Klipsch's business plan and only give certain series of product. Rockford formerly only a boutique line successfully sold out to any big box store that would have them and remained in the boutique stores. Quite an achievement almost any store that sold car audio sold Rockford. I was told by a reliable source Rockford was able to keep boutique support by offering better price margins to the boutiques. So we will have to see what B&W in BB becomes. Maybe they will only sell them headphones and Ipod docks. This is a bad down turn the economy took and it doesn't show improvement on the street yet.

Hmmm... I doubt they only intend to sell that based on the press release and the fact that they already do that at the Apple Store... My guess would be they'd sell everything other than the newly redesigned and substantially more expensive 800 series... The CM and 600 series are already perfectly priced to fit into Magnolia... The 800 might be a more difficult sell (though not impossible)...

[manlystanley]

IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...


I agree....sort of. I think that we all see high end audio stores dropping like flies. Around me the "Myer-Emco" chain that has been in business for 40+ years went bankrupt. That was a shock. I think that box stores will sell for lower end stuff and internet sales for the higher-end stuff.

But, I think that the change will be that we will not be able to go to hi-fi stores to listen to equipment and talk to the 'experts'. Instead, sites like audioreview.com will become more important to more people. Then I think that things like 'listening parties' will be more prominent. Kind of like progressive dinners. You go from how to house for light snakes and listen to peoples setups. Then you'll get a chance to hear different setups.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Ajani]

I agree....sort of. I think that we all see high end audio stores dropping like flies. Around me the "Myer-Emco" chain that has been in business for 40+ years went bankrupt. That was a shock. I think that box stores will sell for lower end stuff and internet sales for the higher-end stuff.

But, I think that the change will be that we will not be able to go to hi-fi stores to listen to equipment and talk to the 'experts'. Instead, sites like audioreview.com will become more important to more people. Then I think that things like 'listening parties' will be more prominent. Kind of like progressive dinners. You go from how to house for light snakes and listen to peoples setups. Then you'll get a chance to hear different setups.

Best Regards,
Stan

There would still be chances to audition gear; either in the Magnolia stores or better yet with the in-home-trials offered by internet direct sales... IMO, in-home-trials are much better than listening to a dealer prattle on with nonsense as a sales pitch...

Also, I believe that having more major hifi brands (even if only their budget and mid level offerings) in the the big box stores will serve to expose more of the general public to this hobby.

Listening parties sounds pretty cool though - I hope more of those happen...

[Hyfi]

I was surprised to see B&W along with lots of other nice gear being sold at Harrods of London when I was there 2 years ago but I guess Harrods would be considered a high end store. I was just amazed to see a regular department store with great gear.

[3LB]

I agree w/ RGA in spirit. The decision made by B&W will garner them a stigma by the high-end community. I'm sure many of the internet hi-fi hate bloggers have revisited long dormant webpages to replace the words "Bose" with the letters "B&W".

But like Wooch stated, what Hi-Fi shops will be left to spurn them?

Yeah, I said Bose. Bose was a mainstay in hi-fi shops up until the mid-'80s, when they went the bigbox route. Same w/ Cerwin Vega. Same w/ JBL, DCM, then Polk Audio and Boston Acoustics later, and a few others. Bose was always Bose though, they didn't suddenly cheap-out, they were always over priced anyway, like a lot of hi-fi.

I see RGA's point. Will the pressure to price product for the general consumer cause B&W to compromise their rep and leagacy? Maybe. Polk Audio, during their first decade of existence, championed the passive radiator. Say what you will about whether or not you like PRs, the fact is, that was Polk's identity, along with the consistency of the 6.5" driver and softdome tweeter. I loved the way their speakers sounded (still own my SDA-CRSs). Sure, they did that power port thing with their later fladship designs, but as the years pass, the Polk speakers you see in bigbox stores aren't much different than any other brand, at least ones I've seen. How will B&W compete with the likes of KEF, Energy and what passes for Polk Audio speakers w/o losing their identity? Remember, Bose created a new identity with those cute little cube speakers and brochures explaining how they been in the business of surround sound for decades.

Take the above with a grain of salt and not as some form of message board throwdown, because I could prolly make do with any of the brands mentioned in this post.

[Ajani]

I was surprised to see B&W along with lots of other nice gear being sold at Harrods of London when I was there 2 years ago but I guess Harrods would be considered a high end store. I was just amazed to see a regular department store with great gear.

That is part of the reason why HiFi is not doing as badly in other parts of the world... Major HiFi brands can be found in places the average person would actually shop...

Note: Those brands have been doing that for many years in the UK, etc and not had the total collapse of quality many persons predict will occur if they do that in the US... I believe a lot of it just comes down to the perception that real HiFi must be sold at an exclusive dealer... I think getting HiFi back in the mainstream is the best thing that can happen to the hobby.

[Geoffcin]

I must be missing something here. BB has had Magnolia for like a decade already. You could ALWAYS go in there and get decent kit. So B&W sells there stuff there now too? BFD! There just another speaker on the rack over there. Magnolia is all about HT, so I can guarentee you that people looking to drop 20 large for a set of 800d's aren't going to be shopping in Magnolia.

I agree it's a sad thing that the speciality Hi-Fi store is going the way of the dinosaur, but it's not because you can get B&W at Magnolia.

[RGA]

Sorry I missed this thread. When threads get moved I get lost for awhile. people trying to confuse poor RGA all the time.

I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.

Although personally I have not found a lot of stuff from B&W over the last decade that really impressed me. There are an awful lot of audio brands out there - probably far too many, and the large homogonizing chains will take in the large manufacturers - because they have to because those are the speaker companies that can meet the demand. Best-Buy is the Wal-Mart of audio.

Kind of depressing really. Soundhounds with their tens of thousands of vinyls and an owner who spends about $4,000 a month buying CD and SACD - the people passionate about music and reproduction - versus the guy selling you a box from a horrible listening room and has little or no classical music section whatsoever. It's bloody depressing.

[poppachubby]

I don't know if the Bowers' still own the company, or what their corporate picture looks like. Either way, I think alot of these companies would take cash over fist if given the opportunity.

Making money is more important than preserving some nostalgic ideal that a small amount of people may have. Granted I'm sure there are some companies who would not "sell out", but making money is kind of the whole point of running a business, no?

B/W go to Magnolia....nothing changes....life goes on.

[bobsticks]

Magnolia is all about HT, so I can guarentee you that people looking to drop 20 large for a set of 800d's aren't going to be shopping in Magnolia.

I agree it's a sad thing that the speciality Hi-Fi store is going the way of the dinosaur, but it's not because you can get B&W at Magnolia.

this...

[theaudiohobby]

That is part of the reason why HiFi is not doing as badly in other parts of the world... Major HiFi brands can be found in places the average person would actually shop...


Precisely, this marketing model is common in many European countries, Fnac (France, Spain) and El Corte Ingles (Spain) have very respectable HiFi departments. At El Corte Ingles domestic audio department is generally situated next to the musical equipment, which is quite a nice touch. Furthermore, department stores tend to offer a more congenial environment for browsing than the typical HiFi speciality store.

[theaudiohobby]

I don't know if the Bowers' still own the company, or what their corporate picture looks like. Either way, I think a lot of these companies would take cash over fist if given the opportunity.

Surely, the only reason you know B&W is because they managed to sell some product in the past. B&W are simply acknowledging market realities and adjusting accordingly. In the current market, Speciality retailer have neither capital investment nor market exposure to push high volume/low margin domestic audio products.

[poppachubby]

Surely, the only reason you know B&W is because they managed to sell some product in the past. B&W are simply acknowledging market realities and adjusting accordingly. In the current market, Speciality retailer have neither capital investment nor market exposure to push high volume/low margin domestic audio products.

So how is that extreme? You just validated my point.

If big box stores can offer a way to make money for these companies, potentially ALOT more than in the past, why wouldn't they? The reasons for why they may decide to are unimportant. The fact is that any of the big brands have this option. Why are more not jumping at the chance to display their wares on a big box shelf?

The real question is will a reputable brand like BW change their standards to meet big box demands. Perhaps no demands will be made of them. Big box may just want to have an esoteric name to advertise, allowing them credibility.

Only time will tell. In the meantime, "market realities" will see to it that a pimply faced, under paid salesman (with little real experience) becomes the key to the brick and mortar segment. Good luck with that...

I don't think all the negatives are being thought of here. Think of your typical big box experience. Would you want to leave your brand/products to that?!? After building it in some cases for decades?!?

There's obviously alot of facts and figures behind the decision. I must also say that I have never been into a Magnolia, perhaps the salespeople are a tad more qualified.

[kevlarus]

I don't think all the negatives are being thought of here. Think of your typical big box experience. Would you want to leave your brand/products to that?!? After building it in some cases for decades?!?



Definitely not. Some of the salespeople in BB have absolutely no clue what they are talking about (ie, wireless phone to base station bouncing off a satellite... really ?!?).

I noticed Klipsch now has certain lines available at BB but some of their better stuff is only available at the Magnolia's. Much better to have a dedicated room to hear different speakers that at least gives approximate setup of the living/entertainment room. This is how I A/B tested a set of 5.1 speakers before purchasing, but that was at a dedicated A/V store and was not a large chain. They have only 3 stores in the state.

[Geoffcin]

My experience with Magnolia was that every salesperson was trained to a higher level than the BB floorwalkers. All the gear displayed was decent too.

W'ere now going to get upset now that Joe Sixpack can actually wander into a BB and get a taste of decent sound? 95% of the people that go into BB would never step foot in a dedicated Hi-Fi store anyway, so I don't see the terrible outcome of actually having decent gear on sale there.

[Ajani]

My experience with Magnolia was that every salesperson was trained to a higher level than the BB floorwalkers. All the gear displayed was decent too.

W'ere now going to get upset now that Joe Sixpack can actually wander into a BB and get a taste of decent sound? 95% of the people that go into BB would never step foot in a dedicated Hi-Fi store anyway, so I don't see the terrible outcome of actually having decent gear on sale there.

Exactly! What's wrong with exposing the mass market to good sound???

And as you pointed out earlier: other brands have been in Magnolia (under BB ownership for around a decade), such as Martin Logan... Martin Logan's quality and rep has not turned to crap as a result of being in Magnolia... So the idea that B&W is suddenly going to turn into rubbish just doesn't make sense...

[pixelthis]

Being made in China is going to do more damage to B&W's rep than being sold in a big box store, although I do look forward to having them in the neighborhood again.
My Beemers are getting a bit long in the tooth, although still sounding great.
Although broke, I could skip lunch for awhile, certainly.:1:

[RGA]

The positive from this will be a price drop I suspect. When I was in Fukuoka Japan B&W was sold at the big box outlets beside the camera departments and such. The N805 sold for the equivalent of $1100 after conversion, while here it sells at $3000. If this kind of price drop occurs in the west and B&W retains the quality then an 805 is far more recommendable.

It's quite interesting sometimes to see the different market approaches to some gear. Canon has a camera called the Rebel and an identical model in Korea called the KISS - exactly the same camera different logo and the Kiss sells for less than half the price. It was taken apart and it's the same camera - even the people selling both say it's the same. Still people liked to pay double for the Rebel. Both made in the same place and sold to different countries. The Rebel was shipped from Asia to America and then shipped from America back to Korea. The Kiss was shipped from Japan direct to Korea.

Being made in China is a reality of the future. They have the economy and the population. The wealth is in China and they are buying up American and western firms at high rates. I won't be surprised when they buy Wal-mart, the American car manufacturers, all the law firms - the best way to take over is to control the lawyers. No need to fire a shot to takeover.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know what the boutique stores are doing in your areas but here they are not stocking any product, only display and if there is a sale the store orders the product in. So imagine how many units just to put on display in Magnolia. This has to be a boost to B&W's bottomline. You can't blame a company for that.

Geoff, if you see one of my earlier posts, my experience in Magnolia was the same as yours. I was surprised and pleased.

Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.

[YBArcam]

To read this thread one would think that soon there will be no specialty audio stores left in the entire world. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they are disappearing, and I'm sure it's all true. But in my area there is lots of choice, assuming you are willing to get in the car and drive at least one or two hours. I'm sure it's always been this way though...since when were audio stores like convenience stores with a location on every corner? There are probably something like 10-15 stores within a two hour drive of my place, and none of them has closed since I started paying attention to hi fi (five or so years ago).

I'm actually quite surprised about that, as no doubt this is a tough gig. But as long as there are audiophiles, there will be specialty audio retailers (and that's exactly what Magnolia is btw, as far as I can tell). Online? Frankly, how good are companies like Axiom and Aperion and Emotiva doing? I don't think any of us really knows. To buy gear from them, lug it home from the post office, open it, try it, and then not like it and have to pack it up and ship it back at my expense. Nah, I'm not very interested. I'd much rather deal with a dealer who might let me take the gear home for a few days, and will offer support afterwards if I need it (and rather than me having to ship it back I can just drive to the store and drop it off).

To put a bit of a twist on things, there are specialty brick and mortar audio shoppes that sell gear online. Spearit Sound and Saturday Audio for example, and many dealers on CAM and Audiogon. This should help these stores compete.

I've never been to Magnolia, but if they are separated from the rest of the store, and have qualified staff with proper set up then I wouldn't be against going there if I was B&W or any other somewhat high end brand. It's an interesting argument that exposing hi fi to the masses is worthwhile, and is already done elsewhere which only helps the entire industry. But part of me can't help but think these Best Buy shoppers who will buy anything are idiots. I want quality for my dollar and I was able to find hi fi, we all were able to. These other people have no excuse. Whatever I'm going to buy I research it, if others do not then they have only themselves to blame when they end up with garbage. We are all responsible for our choices, so why should some folks be spoon fed? But I guess that's the reality. Maybe it makes sense for the audio companies to band together and run some mainstream ads about the benefits of high end audio, and ask the public to try some specialty stores in their area before buying lackluster product at a big box store.



I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.

I would say don't bother. Unless you want to see a bunch of crappy speakers lined up against a wall, next to a bunch of home theater receivers. This is all any Best Buy has in my area. Future Shop might be a little better, in that you might come across a decent Energy Reference model, but I'm not sure that's worth writing home about.

[Geoffcin]

I don't know what the boutique stores are doing in your areas but here they are not stocking any product, only display and if there is a sale the store orders the product in. So imagine how many units just to put on display in Magnolia. This has to be a boost to B&W's bottomline. You can't blame a company for that.

Geoff, if you see one of my earlier posts, my experience in Magnolia was the same as yours. I was surprised and pleased.

Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.

Did we go to the same store?! Actually I think BB makes a point of having Magnolia as their "premium only" kit display, and my guess is that you've got to be well trained to work the room.

We've got some of the most exclusive independents in my area and I can tell you that for the most part, unless they are absolutly SURE your going to drop gelt on the spot your not even going to get past the intro room. I remember several years ago when I was in the market for speakers that getting to hear a set of Quad 988's was like getting an audiance with the Dali Lama. I'm still waiting to hear the big Soundlabs! Perhaps things are different now that the economy is belly up?

[Mr Peabody]

The independents here are pretty good about letting you check out the gear. Maybe they figure if you don't buy today you might remember and be back another day. Also, a good way to educate. That's what hooked me.

The girl in Magnolia along with being knowledgeable and helpful she was also trained to close the deal, she asked a couple times which receiver did we like, which speakers do we want to take home. I don't know if this is a Magnolia criteria the girl was also very attractive, it took all my will power to break the spell, i almost bought something and I wasn't even shopping for hi fi gear. :)

[YBArcam]

I've come across some independents who were pretty bad, but probably 80% of them are quite good. Come to think of it, I can only really say one store had an attitude. Most stores here are great with letting you do in-home trials, or just listen in one of their rooms, and do not put any pressure on you to buy (some stores put on a bit of pressure). I always feel a little guilty for not buying after I've taken up an hour or two of their time, and I almost always eventually end up buying something from the store (even if it's only just a set of cables), but it's likely these stores realize that this is part of the job.

Even if a customer takes up a few hours of a salesman's time and doesn't buy anything, they will probably remember the positive experience and could buy in the future, or even recommend the store to a few friends/family.

If one thing is a little disappointing with independents it's the lack of knowledge about how audio gear works. You often get the same buzzwords that you hear elsewhere, and if you ask a question about how something works you'll probably get a very basic answer. I wish they'd pass along a bit more knowledge, but I've come to realize that this hobby is both quite complex and very subjective, so I prefer to just listen for myself and if I'm allowed that then I'm pretty satisfied.

[Ajani]

Online? Frankly, how good are companies like Axiom and Aperion and Emotiva doing? I don't think any of us really knows. To buy gear from them, lug it home from the post office, open it, try it, and then not like it and have to pack it up and ship it back at my expense. Nah, I'm not very interested. I'd much rather deal with a dealer who might let me take the gear home for a few days, and will offer support afterwards if I need it (and rather than me having to ship it back I can just drive to the store and drop it off).

To put a bit of a twist on things, there are specialty brick and mortar audio shoppes that sell gear online. Spearit Sound and Saturday Audio for example, and many dealers on CAM and Audiogon. This should help these stores compete.

Emotiva is doing extremely well, they run out of stock frequently... No idea about Axiom or Aperion though... Also, keep in mind that online also includes stores that stock multiple brands: AudioAdvisor, Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Needle Doctor, Acoustic Sounds, etc...

The experience had at dealers varies quite dramatically: I've only been to one dealer who I though was excellent (no pressure to buy, knowledgeable and would let me audition whatever I wanted), the others were all either pressuring, understocked (so practically nothing to audition) or downright snotty... Note: that excellent dealer closed down...

[Mr Peabody]

Emotiva is doing extremely well, they run out of stock frequently... No idea about Axiom or Aperion though... Also, keep in mind that online also includes stores that stock multiple brands: AudioAdvisor, Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Needle Doctor, Acoustic Sounds, etc...

The experience had at dealers varies quite dramatically: I've only been to one dealer who I though was excellent (no pressure to buy, knowledgeable and would let me audition whatever I wanted), the others were all either pressuring, understocked (so practically nothing to audition) or downright snotty... Note: that excellent dealer closed down...

The moral of the story, being snotty is a best business practice. :)

[Geoffcin]

Actually I'm being a little unfair. there's only one that gave me a hard time, and I should have known better going there "unannounced" so to speak. They are a strictly by appointment, and I just showed up. Not what I usually do, but I happened to be in the area and I really did want to hear the Quads.

[bobsticks]

Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.


I know exactly the place of which you speak though I can't recall the name...over on the strip across from the car lot with the Bentleys. Last time I was down your way Grendel and I stopped in there and left shaking heads and "wtf"-ing...we actually unwrapped the Ken Kessler "McIntosh...For the Love of the Music" coffee table dealio because the salesperson insisted that my 7205 was a two-channel 60 watt amp...Идиот

[Woochifer]

I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.

I think you need to understand that audio/video retailing in the U.S. is primarily a three-tiered market. At one level, you have the mass market stores (this would include BB, Costco, Target, Walmart, etc.) that primarily sells high volume, low priced gear. At the top level, you have the high end audio/video stores, most of which are independent and traditionally operate small store fronts. In the middle, you have the regional specialty audio/video retailers, which carry mass market brands as well as a selection of high end gear. In most markets, it's the regional specialty chains that have gotten hammered the hardest, with many of them going out of business over the past decade.

If you don't understand Magnolia, then you don't understand B&W's move. Basically, Magnolia started as a regional specialty audio/video chain in the Northwest. They consistently ranked at or near the top among electronics chains for customer service. In 2000, Best Buy acquired the company and operated them as an independent subsidiary. Having BB's deep pockets allowed Magnolia to expand into the California market, where they competed primarily with Good Guys (which went out of business a few years later).

About five years ago, Best Buy began experimenting with adding Magnolia mini stores inside their big box Best Buy stores, and they've now expanded it nationally. These mini stores have dedicated demo rooms, and separately trained sales reps. Unlike their standalone stores, which also carry high end audio components, the Magnolia mini stores inside BB focus on home theater.

These Magnolia stores already carry Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, so adding B&W's not really much of a sea change.


Although personally I have not found a lot of stuff from B&W over the last decade that really impressed me. There are an awful lot of audio brands out there - probably far too many, and the large homogonizing chains will take in the large manufacturers - because they have to because those are the speaker companies that can meet the demand. Best-Buy is the Wal-Mart of audio.

But, as I mentioned already, these Magnolia stores are not inside every Best Buy, and as with any specialty audio/video store, the Magnolia subsidiary is more about margin than volume. That's why Magnolia has home installation/contracting services, and ISF video calibration. They basically function more like a specialty audio/video store, but (aside from their 15 or so standalone stores in California, Oregon, and Washington) happened to be located inside of Best Buy. This is no different than when B&W was stocked by now defunct regional chains like Tweeter and Ken Crane.


Kind of depressing really. Soundhounds with their tens of thousands of vinyls and an owner who spends about $4,000 a month buying CD and SACD - the people passionate about music and reproduction - versus the guy selling you a box from a horrible listening room and has little or no classical music section whatsoever. It's bloody depressing.

Why is it depressing? The alternative is B&W and other higher end brands getting pushed out of one geographic territory after another because of an ever shrinking retail base. Magnolia at least provides an option for the many markets that don't have any high end stores left, and for those markets whose regional specialty chains have gone out of business.

Even with the high end stores, I'm seeing a lot of consolidation. I think that in the future, you will see the emergence of high end superstores, and that will ensure the availability of high end components, but with fewer stores.

[johnny p]

As far as I'm concerned, it won't affect the brand..... it's not like someone is going to go in there, buy a pair of 802d's, take zero care in setting up his/her room, and be displeased with them.....

I think this will be a good way for un-educated people to not be "taken" either..... if someone walks into a BB that has a Magnolia, and is looking at a $2000 Bose setup... perhaps the kid working there will direct them towards a set of M-1's, and a couple years later, they will realize how lucky they were that they didn't buy what they set-out to buy in the first place......

[theaudiohobby]

I think this will be a good way for un-educated people to not be "taken" either..... if someone walks into a BB that has a Magnolia, and is looking at a $2000 Bose setup... perhaps the kid working there will direct them towards a set of M-1's, and a couple years later, they will realize how lucky they were that they didn't buy what they set-out to buy in the first place......

Exactly

[pixelthis]

Exactly
I doubt if anything will get much past the 600 series, bottom feeders that BB is.:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

I really think it would be hard for any salesperson to really make a "go" of it at a Best Buy store, even if they did get really high end equipment, mostly because for quite some time now (especially the stores that never really cared much in the way of speakers to begin with) have trained their customers that they essentially don't really have much in the way of speakers or that you can get a HTiB for a few hundred dollars and that's all you really need....or send them to Bose.

So let's say they do start carrying some really nice B&W's.... most people would look at the sticker and laugh thinking it was a joke....since majority of the people who shop there probably don't want to drop that type of cash on speakers, whereas people like us at this site, understand the hobby and know where we need to go to get the products we like, specialty shops.

Sure...there may be a few converts over time in a BB store, but for the most part even a really knowledgeable salesman would have a hard time getting the general public to do more than just sit there, listen, love it, and then never commit.

It would be like selling True Religion Jeans at a Wal-Mart....

[Glen B]

Being made in China is a reality of the future.
It seems more and more like the reality of the present. I will be deejaying a backyard party and decided to buy a pro sub to use. When it arrived, I was surprised to find this traditionally made in America brand had "made in China" stamped on the carton. I was like, WTF? Is there anything that is not made in China anymore ?

[pixelthis]

It seems more and more like the reality of the present. I will be deejaying a backyard party and decided to buy a pro sub to use. When it arrived, I was surprised to find this traditionally made in America brand had "made in China" stamped on the carton. I was like, WTF? Is there anything that is not made in China anymore ?

NOPE.
But the really irritating thing is the "engineered in (fill in the blank) built in CHINA.
I took a 2500$ set of klipse back (well, sold them) after they didn't stand up.
I don't know about how far the CHINA MADNESS has permeated into the B&W
line, only know that the base line is China made.
SPEAKERS ARE special, considered more of a handmade item, with a unique
sound.
HOW DO YOU TRANSPLANT THAT TO CHINA???
You don't, basically.
Good thing I got my B&W speakers before western civilization shut down, and good thing
that they last decades, as mine are eight-nine years old.:1:

[Ajani]

Here's an update on the situation from the Stereophile website:


Reflecting dramatic changes in the high-end industry, British loudspeaker manufacturer Bowers & Wilkins has developed for its products a new US retail outlet. Beginning in October, audio shoppers will be able to audition and buy the company's loudspeakers in Best Buy's chain of Magnolia stores.

B&W's entire line, from in-wall speakers through the flagship 800 series, will be available in Magnolia's six remaining standalone Audio Video stores, as well as in its ever-increasing number of Magnolia Design Centers. The balance of the Magnolia chain, which occupies some 350 locations within Best Buy stores, will have access to B&W's 600 and CM series, complete with center-channel speakers and subwoofers, as well as lifestyle products such as the Zeppelin iPod and MM-1 computer speaker systems. The top-of-the-line Nautilus remains available for audition in the few dealerships equipped to adequately present it.

B&W chairman and owner Joe Atkins explained to Stereophile the reasons for the company's decision: "We have experienced a precipitous decline in dealerships. The entire specialty audio industry has been hit, not only by the loss of stores, but also by the loss of rooms dedicated to showing premium audio. First the increased emphasis on video decreased space [for audio], then the switch to demming nonpure audio, including distributed audio such as control and noiseless systems, further consumed space."

Atkins also described a second and concomitant trend of the past three years: the significant number of failures of retailers. "Coupled with a dramatic increase in the number of traditional retailers who have reduced or eliminated store count and/or size of retail presence, scaled back their businesses, or transformed into custom integrators, we have experienced a dramatic and significant decline in presentation of Bowers & Wilkins in bricks-and-mortar stores," he said. "The problem of dealer decline is particular to the US, and is much less an issue overseas."

Atkins emphasized that underpinning the company's decision was Magnolia's ability to demonstrate the entire B&W line. "We wish to recover, if not enhance, the ability to have the broad extension of our products seen and heard nationally. Bowers & Wilkins feels very compelled to make sure that, in every market and price range, we have enough bricks-and-mortar presence for people to be able to find us. We are also confident that the increased brand exposure will benefit our existing dealer partners, and enhance their ability to continue to drive profitable and sustainable retail revenue."

B&W is hardly alone in its decision. Magnolia also carries Arcam, Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, Peachtree Audio, Pioneer Elite, and Primare electronics, as well as Definitive Technology, Genelec, MartinLogan, Monitor Audio, Niles, REL, Sonus Faber, SpeakerCraft, and Vienna Acoustics loudspeakers. They even have Pro-Ject turntables.

"This is quite a shift for us," Atkins said, "but it is driven by what has gone on outside our control—especially in the last 24 months, with the decline. Our products do not lend themselves to be sold online without the consumer hearing them."

http://www.stereophile.com/news/bw_heads_to_magnoliaville/

Most interesting is the brands Magnolia now carries (highlighted in bold above)...

[pixelthis]

Here's an update on the situation from the Stereophile website:



http://www.stereophile.com/news/bw_heads_to_magnoliaville/

Most interesting is the brands Magnolia now carries (highlighted in bold above)...

So, the 600 and the CM, AND you can order a Nautilus.
About what I figured, like I could afford a NAUTILUS anyway.
We can't all have a demo pair "fall off a truck" at work like some around here.:1:

[Ajani]

So, the 600 and the CM, AND you can order a Nautilus.
About what I figured, like I could afford a NAUTILUS anyway.
We can't all have a demo pair "fall off a truck" at work like some around here.:1:

Yep... The 600 and CM are already perfectly priced for Magnolia... and the 800 being very expensive makes them only fit for special order/Magnolia stand alone stores and other high end stores...

The exposure of the 600, CM, headphones, iPod docks, computer speakers etc to the masses, who regularly pass through Best Buy, should certainly help to improve B&Ws sales and brand awareness in North America...

[bobsticks]

... and the 800 being very expensive makes them only fit for special order/Magnolia stand alone stores and other high end stores...


Actually not...I had a visit with my hi-fi guru yesterday and they're dropping B&W...used some very unfortunate terminology as well...the gist of the convo was that they'll send anything, anywhere...and BB's financing capabilities give them a headstart over a lot of smaller brick and mortars...

[Mr Peabody]

Things change but so far the big B&W dealer here is sticking with them. They carry Mac and Classe, Best Buy isn't going to be able to sell many Nautilus driving them with receivers. Although they give it a hell of a try on the Vienna Acoustics. I didn't care for the sound of the Vienna at all, I don't think it had to do with the electronics either, same electronics made the Martin Logan sing pretty good. I'd like to take a look at the 803's again, I didn't realize they revamped that model in recent years. It used to be a flat spot in the line not offering much of an upgrade over the 804's for the money, now I see they've added some drivers and the 803 is supposed to be a pretty good competitor in it's price.

[PeruvianSkies]

Things change but so far the big B&W dealer here is sticking with them. They carry Mac and Classe, Best Buy isn't going to be able to sell many Nautilus driving them with receivers. Although they give it a hell of a try on the Vienna Acoustics. I didn't care for the sound of the Vienna at all, I don't think it had to do with the electronics either, same electronics made the Martin Logan sing pretty good. I'd like to take a look at the 803's again, I didn't realize they revamped that model in recent years. It used to be a flat spot in the line not offering much of an upgrade over the 804's for the money, now I see they've added some drivers and the 803 is supposed to be a pretty good competitor in it's price.

The ONLY thing that I heard drive the Nautilus correctly was 2 Krell monoblocks.

[bobsticks]

The ONLY thing that I heard drive the Nautilus correctly was 2 Krell monoblocks.

The McIntosh MC501 can do it as well as the Boulder 2050.

[pixelthis]

The ONLY thing that I heard drive the Nautilus correctly was 2 Krell monoblocks.

Even the 600 series likes power, something with a big chunk of copper, like a toroidal
transformer. Mine really started singing with a decent amp.:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

The McIntosh MC501 can do it as well as the Boulder 2050.

I am sure, just haven't heard anyone using that McIntosh with their B&W's....

What is the cost on the Boulder?

[Mr Peabody]

PSkies, you don't even want to know, Boulder starts in the five figure range.

I mostly heard the B&W driven by Classe and ARC, it gave me a bad impression of B&W. It wasn't until I heard the 801's driven by the Mac 1kw monoblocks I realized what they could come close to do. The Mac was badly rolled off but the bass was incredible. We kept looking around the room for the hidden sub. I'm talking massive slam. The roll off could have been the Mac tubed preamp, not sure the cause. The lower level B&W sounded pretty good with Denon in the past.

[johnny p]

When I was in High-School many moons ago, my brother had a friend who would steal things religiously from Best-Buy (he worked there doing warehousing stuff) It was mostly computer stuff since it was expensive at the time, and he had an interest in it...... Drop a pair of 802d's off by a 16 year old blue-shirt hooligan who owns a pick-up truck, and bad stuff will probably ensue.....

When I bought my 700's, the salesperson tried pushing the 600's on me.... I preferred the sound I got from the speakers I selected, and it wasn't until after I bought my speakers, did I find out they had just made the move to manufacturing some of the lesser lines in China...... I'm sure they were trying to hit higher margins with me.....

[bobsticks]

...... Drop a pair of 802d's off by a 16 year old blue-shirt hooligan who owns a pick-up truck, and bad stuff will probably ensue.....

Lol, or maybe good stuff depending upon one's position and perspective...

Thanks johnny p....

[Byron4]

Last year I went into the Magnolia section of my local Best Buy. All of the speakers were shoved up against the wall and the salesmen did not have the ability to play any music whatsoever to demonstrate the speakers. After 10 minutes of looking around for something with music on it the best he could do was play a DVD of an orchestra playing switching out the surrounds. The sound was not only unimpressive but the salesmen had very little knowledge of the Definitive Technology and Martin Logan's speakers he was trying to sell. This was supposed to be their "High-End Expert". Fortunately the Los Angeles area has other brick and mortar stores such as Shelley's, Sound Factor, GNP, Weinhart Design (formerly Ambrosia) among others. I have bought gear at various times from all of these places over the past 28 years and have been very pleased with the results and service. Also Soundscape in Santa Rosa used be in Southern California and Marc Silver the owner is a very knowledgeable pleasant person that I have bought gear from over the years. The only great audio store that is gone is Audio Den in Van Nuys, although some of the aforementioned stores have closed other locations.

[Feanor]

I must be missing something here. BB has had Magnolia for like a decade already. You could ALWAYS go in there and get decent kit. So B&W sells there stuff there now too? BFD! There just another speaker on the rack over there. Magnolia is all about HT, so I can guarentee you that people looking to drop 20 large for a set of 800d's aren't going to be shopping in Magnolia.

I agree it's a sad thing that the speciality Hi-Fi store is going the way of the dinosaur, but it's not because you can get B&W at Magnolia.
"High-end" audio has been a niche market for a long time -- at least as distinct from home theatre. The heyday of hifi was the '70s; it was killed by the advent of VCRs. People are simply more interested in video than sound. Sound as sound today is mostly about iPods and downloads. Those with sufficient funds might look for better quality sound to accompany their TVs. Tube amps? $10k stereo speaker pairs? $5k turntables? DAC boxes? SACD? Audio Note? Forget it! It's a wonder that high-end stores exist at all, an virtually none would if they didn't sell HT.

Myself, I don't much care care about retails stores anymore. Small selection, high prices, ignorant yet opinionated staff: who needs them? The only virtue of these brick & mortar outlines is that a few of them will let you try equipment in your home, (either loan, or free return sales). I'd rather get my info from the Intenet -- and buy from the Internet too.

[harley .guy07]

I feel as long as they can take the time to teach the people in the magnolia departments what the true since of what higher end really brings and the associates will be able to communicate at the magnolia shoppers levels which in some cases will be much higher level than the normal BB levels they will be OK. My worry is that they will through a bunch of mp3 playing college kids in there that do not know the difference between said mp3's and what digital music can really offer and also know what the analog community wants as well then that will be a big advantage to magnolia departments in the Best Buy stores.
I am not against these stores selling these products as long as the people in these departments are knowledgeable and know how to set up systems that have the synergy needed to bring out what they can do. Driving most of these speakers with receivers is not going to cut it by any means. Most of the speakers in magnolias lineup are not set up for use with a receiver with its limited capabilities and with the placement being crucial for most speakers to get the best overall results knowledge of these things are going to be crucial for the overall result to be good enough to see the difference between normal BB fair and the magnolia offerings that are offered.