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Mr Peabody
07-09-2010, 08:57 PM
The Ultra 12's look great and everything about them seems to be quality. The grill is one of the most substantial I've seen on any sub, the frame is thick and heavy. You get a set of both rubber feet AND spikes. I used the rubber feet that screw in. They are cone shape with point down. You don't get a lot of fancy features but you do get the basics like auto turn on, phase control, you can use a single or dual RCA connection, you even get an XLR input, and the crossover bypass switch. The only thing I noticed not quite top notch, the power cord is a bit of a loose fit but seems to stay in fine. Already a 12" sub with this type of power and fit, even if it has average performance it's already a good deal for the price.

Here's what I did and this is only about a 14x14 room, I have my Krell integrated driving a pair of Klipsch, Heresy. From the pre out I connected a Ultra 12 to each channel. I also wanted to elevate the Heresy, so I sat each Heresy on a sub. My crossover point was probably around 60Hz. In this set up the Heresy will still get full range. In deed, the Emo subs can perform. I like them for music better than I did my Velodyne but that really isn't saying much as I thought the Velodyne was terrible for music. They don't seem to be as fast and invisible as my SVS but there is significant price difference. Here's what they did though, with something like Marcus Miller with good low end the subs did not distort and the SPL was unreal. I could feel the bass pounding my body like at a Rock concert. The Ultra 12's have some beefy output to keep up with a 250x2 Krell driving 98dB sensitive speakers, the sub's volume is slightly over 12 o'clock. I took the volume around to full and the amp has plenty of additional headroom from where I have my volume set. They seemed to play low with a CD they does a frequency sweep I will have to put more music to them tomorrow. By the time I got them set up and ran some music it was already getting late. Didn't think the wife and kids would appreciate that type of SPL on through the night. :)

I doubt you can buy a better sub for the money. They're cheap enough I'd recommend two just because you can and the SPL I experienced was a thrill. It's too much hassle to put these in my HT set up just for fun but based on the power and low distortion the Ultra 12 should make an excellent sub for HT.

kexodusc
07-10-2010, 06:59 AM
Thanks for sharing. I see the amp is only a 300 watt RMS unit. I love it when manufacturers focus on the driver instead of just throwing more wattage at the system with big 1000 watt + amps. My own 15" designs use but 240 watt amps. I rarely listen to music louder than an average of 90 dB + dynamic peaks, and could probably get away with half that power if I knew the amps could handle the impedance. Wonder what the driver sensitivity is?

What's the internal bracing like? Can you tap on the cabinet and identify where braces are?

I finally have some down time this weekend, maybe I'll post a thorough review of the UMC-1 if anyone's interested...

Hyfi
07-10-2010, 07:50 AM
Sounds great Mr P. If you have the chance, try what I just did by getting the subs up a few inches. I am continuing to be amazed with every disk I play. Clear tight bass with notes of proper tone yet still deep and rumbling through your body.

As far as the power cord, I have wrapped several of my loose ones with 1 layer of black electrical tape which made the fit much better and secure feeling.

Have fun with the subs!

Mr Peabody
07-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Kex, I couldn't tell where the bracing was, the cabinet seems very solid. It would almost have to be to house a 12" driver in such a small box. :)

The Ultra 12 is much more musical and better built than mass market subs I had experience with. I haven't opened one and don't intend to but I have opened my Velodyne SPL 12 when it quit working. The Emo has a die cast woofer where the Velodyne had a stamped frame woofer. The Emo will give higher priced subs a run for the money.

frenchmon
07-10-2010, 01:36 PM
I doubt you can buy a better sub for the money. They're cheap enough I'd recommend two just because you can and the SPL I experienced was a thrill. It's too much hassle to put these in my HT set up just for fun but based on the power and low distortion the Ultra 12 should make an excellent sub for HT.


Do you now about the Ultra 12's cousin.

http://www.av123.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=614&category_id=8&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3479/790472975562571c8755cce.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/790472975562571c8755cce.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


At one time before Emotiva launched there own product, the lead person at Emotiva was a partner over at AV123. They made some nice gear and speakers back then....and they may still share some ideas I assume.

Mr Peabody
07-10-2010, 02:36 PM
I did not realize that Frenchmon.

frenchmon
07-10-2010, 02:57 PM
Yeah...infact MrP...AV123 also had Outlaw audio and Swan speakers under its umbrella as well before they branched out. Apparently Mr , Dan Laufman, the senior partner in Emotiva who use to work for Mark Schiftner at AV123 branch off on his own and would not support faulty product that was sold under AV123 and it started a big fight between Mark Schiftner and Dan Laufman...with Mark going to his friends over at Outlaw audio for help in taking care of those who had purchased the LMC-1 that Mr Laufman would not support. Read about it here.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11145140&&#post11145140

frenchmon
07-10-2010, 03:41 PM
Wow....I cant wait!

Look what I found out today MrP about Mark Schiftner.


Exciting Changes- Its People and Products PDF Print E-mail


With so many new developments at AV123, we feel it’s very important to cover some topics of importance that we’re sure many of you are interested in.

Its People

Below you’ll find the resignation letter from our former President, Mark L. Schifter. Although Mark resigned from AV123 several weeks ago, he asked that his letter be included in our newsletter. We know that Mark would like to thank the many of you that have shown both him and AV123 a world of support. Below is his official letter of resignation. We wish him the very best as he moves forward.


Dear Friends:

Effective immediately, I am announcing my resignation as President of av123.

My family and I have decided that it’s best if I step back from my administrative role with av123 and concentrate my complete efforts on the development of the new products. This break will allow me to better focus on all of the issues before me now, and in doing so bring about positive changes for av123.

I am stepping back in order to “step up” in several areas. I’m fully prepared to do so – and you’ll see confirmation of that in our new products in the days and weeks to come.

Mark L. Schifter

Its Products

We also would like to take a moment and explain that our decision to begin building all of our products here in America was born out of our desire to “get it right”, and do so here in our own backyard. We have always appreciated the advantages of building products in China and/or Colombia , but we have learned through some very painful lessons that ultimately the only way we can impact the quality of our products in the way we’d like (or need to) is to proactively be a part of that process day in and day out. Our decision was a very difficult one, but one that had to be made. We are so excited to be working with artisians right here in Colorado who will be handcrafting our products with the highest level of quality and care. We hope you will enjoy the beauty of these Made in the USA products.

We have made changes to management and have decidedly moved forward in a new direction with products made close to home that still represent the heritage set forth by the original founders of this company. Nothing about that will change. The manner in which we go to market with these incredible products has been “re-engineered” to focus on quality and delivery in a timely and predictable fashion. Our new management here at AV123 has set us on this new course, and we are carefully managing those processes every day.

We are here to serve you and we shall endeavor to do so each and every day with our valuable customer always in mind. With each new decision, with each new change or course correction, we do so to better our connection to you and your needs, now and on into the future.


You can read it at his web site.

http://www.av123.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200&Itemid=153

kexodusc
07-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Didn't Mark Shiftner step down because of his indictment for charity fraud? Seems like they're spinning this into a happy progressive story when it's perhaps not?
http://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/press/news/2010/02/26/attorney_general_announces_indictment_longmont_man _involved_internet_charitabl

Too much drama in this industry...I hope Av123 does well, some of their speakers are fantastic.

frenchmon
07-10-2010, 03:53 PM
Wow...I think he is in more than a little trouble....He scammed people. I wonder why he would do that....the report said it started in 2004 so it had nothing to do with his company because he was really doing well then...at least it seemed. Must have been funding his company with the charities.

I wonder what new product they are coming out with....maybe just a spin because they are going to be out of business for a while..at least until this thing is over.

Mr Peabody
07-10-2010, 03:55 PM
Every one I read raves about the customer service from Emo so if Dan didn't stand behind the LMC he had a reason. Or, learned a lesson. There's always two sides to a story.

Mr Peabody
07-10-2010, 04:05 PM
It would be nice to see somebody actually making products in the U.S. again.

kexodusc
07-10-2010, 04:13 PM
I don't do business with friends when I can help it. When money gets involved, people can lose their rationality. There was obviously some frustration that led to mud-slinging later.

I'd buy from either company still because there's lots of satisfied customers to go around.

RoadRunner6
07-13-2010, 01:21 AM
Thanks Mr. Peabody for a nice review here and over at the Emotiva forum. I was initially a little skeptical about the new Emo subs not because of lack of quality but because of the inherent lack of performance (low bass extension) in the small form subs. It sounds like they do indeed perform very well. I'm not a big fan of the squared off corners and vinyl covers so I look forward to their introduction of the higher series of subs they plan to roll out in the future. The sale price on the Ultra 12's was an absolute steal. Great feedback!

As far as Emo and AV123 there is zero connection between them now as far as I know. When it comes to Dan Laufman and Mark Schiftner, that's like comparing apples to rotten apples, IMO. Concerning Mr. Laufman, we don't see eye to eye on all, but he runs a very ethical and customer service oriented firm and is introducing more quality products. The UMC-1 pre-pro is turning out to be a jewel and the new in wall, ceiling and outdoor speakers are very impressive. The soon to be introduced, new Emotiva XDA-1, DAC looks like a winner.

RR6

poppachubby
07-13-2010, 04:12 AM
Road runner!! Good to hear from you, your input has been missed. How are things with you, feeling better?

Mr Peabody
07-13-2010, 05:34 PM
Thanks RR6. I wonder if they will stick with the same sound for the XDA they went with on the ERC.

I could conceiveably have an all Emo 2nd system. Looking forward to test driving the USP & XPA2.

RR6, what do you hear about the Emo speakers since they lost their driver manufacturer? I know they have a new manufacturer now but it's hard to believe a different maker can make the exact product made by another.

RoadRunner6
07-13-2010, 09:52 PM
They are using the same DAC as in the ERC-1 but better drive and output stages. Here is an up to date sheet on the current information by Bill Bauman with quotes from Lonnie. We might see it in August. There is a lot of talk about this new unit at the Emo Lounge as a ERC-1/XDA-1/USP-1 combo and also using the ERC-1/XDA-1directly into an amp. You might also consider the UPA-1 mono-blocks. There are lot of folks raving about them unless you need the additional power of the XPA-2.

http://emonatics.com/XDA-1.shtml

I haven't heard any more than you about the new driver source. Emo management seems to be very good at getting the best parts for their needs. Mr. Laufman seems to have plenty of connections over their so I wouldn't worry that they will be able to match the excellent quality drivers I see in my 5 Emo speakers. I continue to be very pleased with their performance. I just turned on Baraka (DTS-HD-MA) the other day and was simply amazed again at the sound driven with my Oppo BDP-83 and XPA-5.

Thanks Poppachubby. I retired at the end of October, had some surgery and promptly got blood clots in my legs and had to lay around for the better part of three months. I'm doing great now and enjoying retirement. Spent a month in Japan in April/May and had a great time. I'm still waiting for Emotiva to come out with their top pre-pro, XMC-1, to complete my system (at least for now :p).

RR6 :D

poppachubby
07-14-2010, 01:37 AM
Thanks Poppachubby. I retired at the end of October, had some surgery and promptly got blood clots in my legs and had to lay around for the better part of three months. I'm doing great now and enjoying retirement. Spent a month in Japan in April/May and had a great time. I'm still waiting for Emotiva to come out with their top pre-pro, XMC-1, to complete my system (at least for now :p).

RR6 :D

Good to hear. Don't be a stranger!

Tarheel_
07-14-2010, 05:20 AM
I'm skeptical of emotiva due to the lack of neutral or negative feedback/reviews. I've somewhat followed the company since 07 and have browsed their forums on many occasions, but i always see 'glowing' reviews.

I was considering the XPA3 amp and ultimately decided to get a Anthem PV amp instead.

winston
07-14-2010, 10:32 AM
happy "rumbling" Mr Peabody
great 1st impression, Its nice to hear that those "ULTRA 12s working out for you (more bass to you man) enjoy

frenchmon
07-14-2010, 11:43 AM
I'm skeptical of emotiva due to the lack of neutral or negative feedback/reviews. I've somewhat followed the company since 07 and have browsed their forums on many occasions, but i always see 'glowing' reviews.

I was considering the XPA3 amp and ultimately decided to get a Anthem PV amp instead.

Well I cant speak to the amps and pre's but I can vouch for the ERC-1 CDP...Its a goodn.

I can also vouch for the Anthem...its a very goodn.

blackraven
07-14-2010, 03:32 PM
I'm skeptical of emotiva due to the lack of neutral or negative feedback/reviews. I've somewhat followed the company since 07 and have browsed their forums on many occasions, but i always see 'glowing' reviews.

I was considering the XPA3 amp and ultimately decided to get a Anthem PV amp instead.


I've been a little skeptical as well but I'm becoming a convert that Emotiva is a lot of bang for the buck. The problem with many (not all) Emotiva owners is that they are buying Emotiva gear as an upgrade over receivers and cheaper gear so they have no frame of reference with higher end gear. However, some of the people on this forum have compared the Emotiva gear to higher end equipment and there have been favorable reviews. But I see your point about there being relatively few bad reviews and many glowing reviews. Even $20K amps have had some not so favorable reviews.

Mr Peabody
07-14-2010, 05:19 PM
When considering reviews of Emo vs a $20k amp and when keeping in mind the price per performance ratio, one would expect to be blown away by a $20k amp, a $399.00 CDP your expectations aren't as high. So when you get a $399.00 CDP that can hold it's own against much more expensive units, what do you expect? For instance, the ERC-1, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I'd buy instead under, say $700.00. Excluding close outs of higher priced gear. Now, when comparing that unit to more expensive units it comes up short to me, I like more musicality and tonal quality. I was sceptical as well, especially when you see people saying an Emo amp is better than a Mac or Krell. Also, if all reviews are glowing, can they all be wrong? Like I said in my U12 review, it kicks butt for the price and hundreds more over but if you have $1400.00 the U12 isn't as good as my SVS PC13U. So keep a perspective when reading Emo reviews. You are getting quite a value. I mean I have nothing to gain from Emo, I bought a couple pieces and found the hype to be true. In fact, a historical search will show I was an Emo sceptic. Certain people thought me to be a basher but I didn't think so, just being logical. Several people here have used their amps and I'd think if it had flaws some one would say so. Especially Ajani or Kex.

I have my ERC-1 connected to a Krell 500i via XLR, if it was a bad player I couldn't stand it through the Krell. But the ERC's high output and neutral (lack of emotion) makes it a pretty good match.

Mr Peabody
07-14-2010, 05:30 PM
The XDA will be a good price and I love the multiple inputs. It's said to be better sounding than the ERC it will be interesting to see what they mean by that. My only criticism of the ERC is a certain sound characteristic, I don't know how to describe it. I guess "sterile" for lack of anything better, it comes off a bit matallic. It reminds me a bit of the sound character I don't like in some ARC gear I've heard. The ERC needs some flaws though, I mean it's only $399.00, if it did subtle detail better and had tonal richness then what would happen :) The reviews are already unbelieveable.

Ajani
07-14-2010, 07:10 PM
When considering reviews of Emo vs a $20k amp and when keeping in mind the price per performance ratio, one would expect to be blown away by a $20k amp, a $399.00 CDP your expectations aren't as high. So when you get a $399.00 CDP that can hold it's own against much more expensive units, what do you expect? For instance, the ERC-1, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I'd buy instead under, say $700.00. Excluding close outs of higher priced gear. Now, when comparing that unit to more expensive units it comes up short to me, I like more musicality and tonal quality. I was sceptical as well, especially when you see people saying an Emo amp is better than a Mac or Krell. Also, if all reviews are glowing, can they all be wrong? Like I said in my U12 review, it kicks butt for the price and hundreds more over but if you have $1400.00 the U12 isn't as good as my SVS PC13U. So keep a perspective when reading Emo reviews. You are getting quite a value. I mean I have nothing to gain from Emo, I bought a couple pieces and found the hype to be true. In fact, a historical search will show I was an Emo sceptic. Certain people thought me to be a basher but I didn't think so, just being logical. Several people here have used their amps and I'd think if it had flaws some one would say so. Especially Ajani or Kex.

I have my ERC-1 connected to a Krell 500i via XLR, if it was a bad player I couldn't stand it through the Krell. But the ERC's high output and neutral (lack of emotion) makes it a pretty good match.

Yep, I think the reason we see so many raves for Emo gear is simply based on value for money. Emo doesn't make the world's finest audio gear, but they do make gear that is exceptionally fine value for money. So while you can find loads of products that exceed the performance of an Emo product, it is hard not to be impressed with what Emo offers you for the money.

l doubt that my XPA-2 amp would outperform Krell/Musical Fidelity/Mac/Other high end brands, but at $800 it doesn't have to. I believe it compares favorably to other high powered amps from budget/mid-tier specialists like Rotel, NAD and Cambridge Audio. Emo has more power and it does that at half the price or less - which is a truly significant accomplishment considering those brands are regarded as budget leaders.

I can't wait to read Mr. Peabody's thoughts on the XPA-2...

Mr Peabody
07-14-2010, 08:30 PM
Ajani, did you ever get any other speakers?

kexodusc
07-15-2010, 05:20 AM
Yep, what Mr. P. said.

My experience - I bought their new processor with Beta firmware and have had it since March. First month I owned it the firmware had some annoying bugs that didn't play nice with all my gear, and a few other things weren't working. It was pretty rocky and I wasn't sure if I'd keep it (to Emotiva's credit they extended the 30-day trial guarantee indefinitely). So no, they're not perfect at all.

I picked up a late model Integra DTC-9.8 processor and brought it home for 4 days. In Canada that thing sold for $2,200cdn retail (vs $1600 US) and you could probably knock $200- $300 off each for street price I'm guessing. I got a demo for $1350 cdn.

The short and skinny, I liked the UMC-1 a lot better for analog sources - SACD and CD primarily, but the Integra's OSD/user interface and sound quality on BluRays seemed a bit better to me...which carried weight since I use this for movies probably twice as much as SACD/CD listening. But both sound good though, and I didn't feel these were exactly big differences...Integra has Audyssey which some people really like (me not so much), and I found both to be more or less equal in the video processing dept on my 102" screen (but I'm not a videophile and hence not that anal here). The Integra had a few bugs too, but overall worked a bit better at that point.

But the UMC-1 is just over 50% the price of what I could get the discounted 9.8 for (and newer firmware has it working great for me, finally). If the UMC sold for $1600 USD, I would have an Integra right now and wouldn't recommend the Emotiva at all. At $1200 it might be a tougher decision for some...the scale moves with price, see...
But for me, I think I'd get better results putting that $600 difference towards an Oppo 83 and UMC-1 instead of just the 9.8. Much better. For some people's needs I suspect the UMC-1's value won't be enough.

YMMV.

Mr Peabody
07-15-2010, 03:37 PM
That's interesting the UMC was better in analog but not digital. The Integra maybe used a better DAC. One thing I love about the higher end processors I've used was the superior steering. Ergonomics are important but with both units having no bugs and if they were the same price, you think the Integra performance was stand out enough to always edge Emo out?

kexodusc
07-15-2010, 04:13 PM
That's interesting the UMC was better in analog but not digital. The Integra maybe used a better DAC. One thing I love about the higher end processors I've used was the superior steering. Ergonomics are important but with both units having no bugs and if they were the same price, you think the Integra performance was stand out enough to always edge Emo out?
Well, I only had it a few days, and doing a/b comparisons wasn't possible for 7.1 speakers because of the time it took, just 2.0, so my comparison won't pass the DBT crowd standard, just my gut feeling and observations.

That said, no, I don't think the differences were that big that the Integra would win a dominant majority. These both sounded pretty good. Sound was noticeably better than the $1000 midrange Yamaha I was using as a pre-pro in both, and the differences between 9.8 and UMC-1 were not as noticeable in either analog or digital. But they were there and that's the impression I got.

Price equal, this would probably come down to a personal preference for sound presentation, or more importantly, what you were going to use it for. I think maybe 80% movies or more, I would lean towards Integra, but if there was a lot of 2-channel listening especially with analog sources (or multi-channel analog) I would probably still take the Emotiva.

But that's kind of a useless answer because I think one would have to base the decision more so on the interface menus, and the degree the bugs in both annoyed them. Because sound to me was really that close and I had to nitpick to arrive at my conclusions. For me, price equal, the Integra was a better pure HT processor that didn't sound as good when dealing with analog sources and maybe didn't image as well even in the digital realm. FWIW, I didn't find any advantage for crappy Dolby Digital cable tv broadcasts. I think it took the higher resolution BluRay for me to really hear the Integra grow my room a bit.

The UMC really did a better job of SACD with the analog outputs from my Oppo SACD player. The imaging and detail was better and I got that feeling of being transplanted straight into the live performance. I thought I had the LFE settings wrong at one point with the Integra, didn't seem to have the same punch.

I think my point was more that if the UMC-1 was $1600, it would just be another processor in that price categorie with its following, any glowing reviews would just be generic reviews and I think would honestly have chosen the integra for reasons other than sound quality.

Also, I have to confess, I have not liked Integras much in the past and this was a leap of faith on my part. I liked this one a lot.

Ajani
07-15-2010, 05:16 PM
Ajani, did you ever get any other speakers?

Not yet. I'm still undecided on speakers and worse now that I'm planning to move (again) in 2 - 3 years, I'm reconsidering whether a big pair of speakers like the Revel F12s would be a good choice now, as I can't imagine shipping them overseas when I travel.

I suspect whatever I get will be a 'semi-impulse' purchase...

Ajani
07-15-2010, 05:20 PM
I think my point was more that if the UMC-1 was $1600, it would just be another processor in that price categorie with its following, any glowing reviews would just be generic reviews and I think would honestly have chosen the integra for reasons other than sound quality.

That sounds like the standard Emotiva experience. It's hard to hate on a product that offers so much for relatively little money. At double (or sometimes triple) the price, Emotiva products would just be one of very many good options, but at current prices they are a steal. (daummm, I'm starting to sound like another Emotiva fanboy - and I don't even have an Emo T-Shirt :frown5: )

Tarheel_
07-15-2010, 06:15 PM
Not yet. I'm still undecided on speakers and worse now that I'm planning to move (again) in 2 - 3 years, I'm reconsidering whether a big pair of speakers like the Revel F12s would be a good choice now, as I can't imagine shipping them overseas when I travel.

I suspect whatever I get will be a 'semi-impulse' purchase...


Think about a pair of Revel M20s used from audiogon....i use one as a center and its fantastic from movies to music channels (Neo:6, etc.).

They are heavy, but nothing like the floor standers.

Tarheel_
07-15-2010, 06:38 PM
Yep, what Mr. P. said.

But the UMC-1 is just over 50% the price of what I could get the discounted 9.8 for (and newer firmware has it working great for me, finally). If the UMC sold for $1600 USD, I would have an Integra right now and wouldn't recommend the Emotiva at all. At $1200 it might be a tougher decision for some...the scale moves with price, see...
But for me, I think I'd get better results putting that $600 difference towards an Oppo 83 and UMC-1 instead of just the 9.8. Much better. For some people's needs I suspect the UMC-1's value won't be enough.

YMMV.

Good honest stuff there...for the most part everyone who reviews emo gear always states..."for the money" or "bang for the buck"..etc. It seems Emo gear is always judged by price point, not overall sound. I guess all gear is to some point compared by price range. While i get that, i can't help but think...what is best for my rig?
It may be risky, but if you can get more on the used market then do so.

I'm really tempted to get the XPA3 and compare a side by side to the amp i just purchased. Hey, it does have a great return policy.

Really not trying to hijack the thread....

Mr Peabody
07-15-2010, 06:56 PM
Tarheel, that would be great if you did the comparison. I'd find that interesting. Emo is out of a lot of amp stock but if you place your order before 7/18 they will honor the sale price when the amps are back in stock. Not sure if XPA-3 is one that's out.

Ajani, 2 to 3 years?! You have patience my friend.

Good feed back Kex.

Ajani
07-15-2010, 09:05 PM
Good honest stuff there...for the most part everyone who reviews emo gear always states..."for the money" or "bang for the buck"..etc. It seems Emo gear is always judged by price point, not overall sound. I guess all gear is to some point compared by price range. While i get that, i can't help but think...what is best for my rig?
It may be risky, but if you can get more on the used market then do so.

I recently read a similar point being made on an online review site (can't remember which one at the moment): whether you should buy the best bang for the buck products or the best product you can afford...

Bang for the buck is great if you have a tight budget or are someone who just hates the thought of having spent a cent more than you needed to... but it can lead to a lot of disappointment in the long run: upgraditis being the most common symptom. You might save a few bucks today by buying the bang for the buck product, but end up replacing it sooner than expected and spending much more money than if you had just bought the more expensive gear in the first place, simply because you are not satisfied with its absolute performance (rather than just its performance relative to the price)...

Emotiva reviews are just about always as you described, because in absolute sonic terms there are many better products out there... So if you can afford them (or find great deals on them used) then why wouldn't you buy the more expensive gear?


I'm really tempted to get the XPA3 and compare a side by side to the amp i just purchased. Hey, it does have a great return policy.

Really not trying to hijack the thread....

Why not? We're always happy to see person's thoughts on Emo gear...

Ajani
07-15-2010, 09:19 PM
Ajani, 2 to 3 years?! You have patience my friend.

Ha... my patience is likely to run out long before I move... so I'll either opt for a 'disposable' (as in relatively cheap) floorstander or get a pair of Monitors like the M22 (or the M20 as Tarheel suggested) that I can carry with me....

blackraven
07-16-2010, 12:29 AM
Ajani, get some really nice bookshelfs and a disposable sub. Some Monitor Audio Rx 1, B & W 685's or Dynaudio's and the 10" Emo sub.

kexodusc
07-16-2010, 06:11 AM
I recently read a similar point being made on an online review site (can't remember which one at the moment): whether you should buy the best bang for the buck products or the best product you can afford...

Bang for the buck is great if you have a tight budget or are someone who just hates the thought of having spent a cent more than you needed to... but it can lead to a lot of disappointment in the long run: upgraditis being the most common symptom. You might save a few bucks today by buying the bang for the buck product, but end up replacing it sooner than expected and spending much more money than if you had just bought the more expensive gear in the first place, simply because you are not satisfied with its absolute performance (rather than just its performance relative to the price)...

Emotiva reviews are just about always as you described, because in absolute sonic terms there are many better products out there... So if you can afford them (or find great deals on them used) then why wouldn't you buy the more expensive gear?


Interesting.

I don't see how bang-for-the-buck isn't the best way to build a system even if your budget was $50,000 or $1,000,000. I guess it comes down to how you define bang for the buck...I suppose on some level a $5 used receiver is the best bang for the buck possible because it does so much for so little...but that's not really how I apply it.

I'd always want most bang for the buck in any budget. I would never buy a product if it had a competitor that sounded equal or better for materially less money. That would just be wasteful. The savings would give you a head start towards your next purchase and ultimately you'd be get better absolute sound for the same amount of money in the end.

When I buy gear, I demo a wide range of prices, then assign value to the performance each range offers. I usually battle with myself, I could spend this, but is it really that much better? If I decide yes it is, gotta have it, then so be it. Maybe I'm just not as impressed by the yield of sonic improvements as you go up the scale as other people. I don't always buy the single best piece of gear I can afford because sometimes I think of total audio chain - that $1000 extra here probably goes further allocated there...you get the idea.

Ajani
07-16-2010, 11:07 AM
Interesting.

I don't see how bang-for-the-buck isn't the best way to build a system even if your budget was $50,000 or $1,000,000. I guess it comes down to how you define bang for the buck...I suppose on some level a $5 used receiver is the best bang for the buck possible because it does so much for so little...but that's not really how I apply it.

I'd always want most bang for the buck in any budget. I would never buy a product if it had a competitor that sounded equal or better for materially less money. That would just be wasteful. The savings would give you a head start towards your next purchase and ultimately you'd be get better absolute sound for the same amount of money in the end.

When I buy gear, I demo a wide range of prices, then assign value to the performance each range offers. I usually battle with myself, I could spend this, but is it really that much better? If I decide yes it is, gotta have it, then so be it. Maybe I'm just not as impressed by the yield of sonic improvements as you go up the scale as other people. I don't always buy the single best piece of gear I can afford because sometimes I think of total audio chain - that $1000 extra here probably goes further allocated there...you get the idea.

It really depends on how you define best bang for your buck. An example I'd use is:

The Monitor Audio Silver RS6 (now RX6) is a much better bang for the buck than the Monitor Audio Gold GS20 (same thing with Revel Concerta F12 versus Performa F32), so if you based your buying decision solely on best bang for the buck you'd buy the cheaper models... However, the cheaper models might not satisfy your needs in the long run...

Note: the situation would be different if the cheaper speaker performed as well as or better than the more expensive one...

Ajani
07-16-2010, 11:24 AM
Ajani, get some really nice bookshelfs and a disposable sub. Some Monitor Audio Rx 1, B & W 685's or Dynaudio's and the 10" Emo sub.

I have not been a fan of Monitor/Sub combos, but I think your suggestion is probably the best way to go and see if I like a M/S combo in my own home (might change my views on it)...

Mr Peabody
07-16-2010, 07:25 PM
Ajani, that is the view I try to avoid when writing a review of Emo gear but you almost get trapped into mentioning price. When I auditioned the ERC-1 I put it head to head against the NAD 545 a more expensive player and in my opinion the ERC was significantly better. I also put it up against an older Conrad Johnson DAC, in this case it could have come down to a preference but when push came to shove I kept the Emo and ended up selling the CJ. So the ERC is a worthy competitor regardless the price. Same with the sub. Better for less = bang for buck. But I don't want to give the impression Emo is good just because of the price, it's a thin line to walk when trying to express an opinion of Emo. I also like to try and get across it has limits, for instance, the ERC was out matched by my T+A and Frenchmon's Musical Fidelity. The ERC edged out Frenchmon's Rotel changer. That's some butt kicking going on for a $399.00 CDP.

Another example, Kex thought his Emo amp was better than his Rotel or Adcom, could come down to preference but the less expensive amp is holding it's own with more expensive amps. It may not hold up against Krell or Bryston, we shall see some day. So you end up saying this Emo is great for the price, misleading or injustice, maybe, but how else do you say it, Emo beats most mid-fi for less money but may fall some short of higher end.... I think people really aren't going to understand until they hear a piece for themselves.

Ajani
07-17-2010, 06:34 AM
Emo beats most mid-fi for less money but may fall some short of higher end....

That sounds like the general consensus I've seen (and experienced) of Emo products....

Like Kex (assuming I interpreted his point correctly), I have yet to be blown away by the differences between mid and high end products (that I've auditioned), but I do find that differences exist (and whether the difference is worth it is solely up to the purchaser).

With that in mind, I believe many persons would be satisfied by the level of performance offered by Emo products (which is why they are selling so well and have a load of repeat customers)... IMO, they are great value for money, but probably more significant is that they are also good hifi products in absolute terms

Note: Good is not the same thing as 'best' or 'state of the art', etc, etc

Also Note: I believe that a musically satisfying (aka 'good') hifi setup can be obtained with 'mid-fi' gear...

Hopefully my Emo views are a bit clearer now...

Mr Peabody
07-17-2010, 06:46 AM
Well said Ajani, and I was speaking more in general than just at you. It's a challenge to express what Emo offers but you did it as well as I've read it.

I agree a good sounding system can be done with mid-fi gear.

Tarheel_
07-17-2010, 12:43 PM
I have yet to be blown away by the differences between mid and high end products (that I've auditioned), but I do find that differences exist (and whether the difference is worth it is solely up to the purchaser).



Not sure about that statement I believe a proper pair of speakers will reveal much difference in gear. I consider my pair very revealing...i have owned them for some time and have alot of mileage so i always notice a big difference when changing upstream.

Even AVRs have their own signature. Most folks will argue this point, but if you have detailed-enough speakers it becomes clear.

The difference (to me) between mid and high end gear is huge. I don't own any high end components, but just visiting my dealer and listening to Theta and Lexicon and then moving to a nice Marantz AVR...well, there is no comparison at all.

The common link in the entire system is speakers. If they don't reveal much when changing gear, you may need to think about a new pair.

...just rambling...great thread

woofersus
07-17-2010, 03:43 PM
Well the speakers are the part of the system that make the most difference anyway. I usually don't recommend high end sources or amplification to people unless their speakers will reveal the improvement. That said, the difference from one piece of gear to another may differ in value from one person to another. There is obviously a bit of a curve of diminishing returns. Going from a $89 receiver to a $500 receiver will probably make a bigger difference in sound quality than going from the $500 receiver to a $2k receiver. (probably separates at that price, but you get my drift) That doesn't mean the upgrade isn't worth it. It just means you have to decide if that improvement is worth $1500 to you.

That's sort of how I feel about the mid-fi to hi-fi thing. There are people who are perfectly happy with $500 speakers, a $250 amp, and a $100 cd player. For me, it's just not good enough and I'm willing to spend for the improvement. However, price point ALWAYS matters, even at the high end. (with a few rare exceptions where higher prices sell better than lower ones) I think it's totally logical to mention price point and value quotient in a review. Almost everybody is on a budget of some sort, so if product A is 90% of product B for 50% of the price, that's a compelling reason to chose product A. There are some bargains like that out there, and it's good to point them out.

I like Emotiva amps. I think they offer great value - especially for multichannel HT applications, where you need lots of watts and channels, and you probably don't want to spend $6k on it when the whole rest of the system only costs that much. I have a much more expensive amplifier in my 2-channel rig, where it matters more, but that would be a bit wasted in my HT. I'd hesitate to buy their processor though, just due to hassle factor. Maybe a little further into the product lifecycle it will fit the requirement of "just works."

Oh, and the writeup of the new sub. I'd been curious about those...

frenchmon
07-17-2010, 06:17 PM
Like Kex (assuming I interpreted his point correctly), I have yet to be blown away by the differences between mid and high end products (that I've auditioned), but I do find that differences exist (and whether the difference is worth it is solely up to the purchaser).

I have a Rotel preamp RC 1090 which is considered mid-fi and is a very good preamp at its price point. I love it and will never part with it. But a few weeks back I listened to a Audio Research Tube preamp that made me say wow!! I was blown away at what it did to the same music I play on the Rotel out-fit. It was a big difference.

Mr Peabody
07-17-2010, 09:06 PM
Not sure about that statement I believe a proper pair of speakers will reveal much difference in gear. I consider my pair very revealing...i have owned them for some time and have alot of mileage so i always notice a big difference when changing upstream.

Even AVRs have their own signature. Most folks will argue this point, but if you have detailed-enough speakers it becomes clear.

The difference (to me) between mid and high end gear is huge. I don't own any high end components, but just visiting my dealer and listening to Theta and Lexicon and then moving to a nice Marantz AVR...well, there is no comparison at all.

The common link in the entire system is speakers. If they don't reveal much when changing gear, you may need to think about a new pair.

...just rambling...great thread


I agree with you whole heartedly.

Ajani
07-17-2010, 10:13 PM
Not sure about that statement I believe a proper pair of speakers will reveal much difference in gear. I consider my pair very revealing...i have owned them for some time and have alot of mileage so i always notice a big difference when changing upstream.

Even AVRs have their own signature. Most folks will argue this point, but if you have detailed-enough speakers it becomes clear.

The difference (to me) between mid and high end gear is huge. I don't own any high end components, but just visiting my dealer and listening to Theta and Lexicon and then moving to a nice Marantz AVR...well, there is no comparison at all.

The common link in the entire system is speakers. If they don't reveal much when changing gear, you may need to think about a new pair.

...just rambling...great thread

&


I have a Rotel preamp RC 1090 which is considered mid-fi and is a very good preamp at its price point. I love it and will never part with it. But a few weeks back I listened to a Audio Research Tube preamp that made me say wow!! I was blown away at what it did to the same music I play on the Rotel out-fit. It was a big difference.

I think this line from woofersus best sums ups my opinion:


Going from a $89 receiver to a $500 receiver will probably make a bigger difference in sound quality than going from the $500 receiver to a $2k receiver. (probably separates at that price, but you get my drift) That doesn't mean the upgrade isn't worth it. It just means you have to decide if that improvement is worth $1500 to you.

While I agree that more revealing speakers will make differences more obvious, that still doesn't mean the person will be blown away by the differences. Some audiophiles describe differences as night and day, while others tend to find them more subtle.

My headphone setup (AKG K701 cans and Benchmark DAC1 source/headphone amp) is comprised of revealing and generally well regarded HiFi components. I've frequently compared the performance of my K701's plugged into the DAC1 against the headphone output of my HP laptop (no upgraded soundcard just standard cheapo output) and while the differences are noticeable, I don't regard them as being in the "blown away" / "night and day" category. Buying the DAC1 instead of just using the laptop output is worth it to me, but I could easily see someone else thinking that $1K is too much money for the difference...

Interestingly, the closest I've come to a real blown away experience was switching from an old Technics CD player & 5.1 receiver with my Technics speakers to a Benchmark DAC1 & Emotiva XPA-2... So moving from crappy speakers and electronics to crappy speakers and good electronics... Though of course whether the improvement provided by approx $2K of electronics is worth it over approx $200 of electronics is up to the purchaser... For me it was worth it, but again I could see someone else disagreeing...

kexodusc
07-19-2010, 04:36 AM
Just to be clear - I said I haven't been impressed enough to make a purchase of some gear, doesn't mean I don't hear big differences sometimes.

I certainly do with speakers up until the $10k mark, then many, many speaker models start splitting hairs in sound quality for me and we get into personal preference of the speaker's sonic presentation. My favorite commercial speakers remain Focus Audio, I love their linup including the $25k Master 3, but I'm not shilling out $25k for speakers anytime soon. I love their $9k FP90s too, but their FS8's are pretty damn close in performance for 1/3 the price to my ears, enough that I can only think about the music and don't even notice any perceived shortcomings.

This hobby is a bit funny - some people feel they need that bit extra to be happy and that's the difference between a $3k speaker and $28k speaker I guess. I got into it in a hi-fi store last fall with some guy who I felt rudely dismissed my opinion of a Bryston rig because I only owned some cheap NAD and Rotel gear and didn't know what good sound was. He went on further saying I was only making my case to console the fact I couldn't afford the "real" gear. When I found out what the old guy's stereo was I realized I spend more on my annual snowmobile trips. He'd probably see that as a waste of money.

Ajani
07-19-2010, 08:20 AM
Just to be clear - I said I haven't been impressed enough to make a purchase of some gear, doesn't mean I don't hear big differences sometimes.

I certainly do with speakers up until the $10k mark, then many, many speaker models start splitting hairs in sound quality for me and we get into personal preference of the speaker's sonic presentation. My favorite commercial speakers remain Focus Audio, I love their linup including the $25k Master 3, but I'm not shilling out $25k for speakers anytime soon. I love their $9k FP90s too, but their FS8's are pretty damn close in performance for 1/3 the price to my ears, enough that I can only think about the music and don't even notice any perceived shortcomings.

This hobby is a bit funny - some people feel they need that bit extra to be happy and that's the difference between a $3k speaker and $28k speaker I guess. I got into it in a hi-fi store last fall with some guy who I felt rudely dismissed my opinion of a Bryston rig because I only owned some cheap NAD and Rotel gear and didn't know what good sound was. He went on further saying I was only making my case to console the fact I couldn't afford the "real" gear. When I found out what the old guy's stereo was I realized I spend more on my annual snowmobile trips. He'd probably see that as a waste of money.

The point in bold is pretty much what I'm talking about: for you that difference just doesn't seem worth the money, but another audiophile would claim that "you need to get your hearing checked for not hearing the dramatic difference between the two"... I've seen and experienced countless examples of that. I always think back to Kalman Rubinson's Stereophile review of the Revel Concerta F12s, in which he compared the F12s to the 10x the price Revel Ultima Studios (that he owned) and concluded:


Compared directly with speakers costing in excess of $10,000/pair, the difference was striking only until I put on some music and closed my eyes.

On the other hand I've read opinions of Revel fans/owners on the AVScience forum who claim that that you can't even compare the Concerta series to the Performa, much less the Ultima line...

It's all way too subjective, so it's only up to the purchaser to decide whether the difference is worth the extra money...

Mr Peabody
07-19-2010, 12:27 PM
Kex, have you ever heard any Dynaudio? If so, which models? Just curious your opinion. I haven't heard FoCal yet.

Tarheel_
07-20-2010, 04:04 AM
On the other hand I've read opinions of Revel fans/owners on the AVScience forum who claim that that you can't even compare the Concerta series to the Performa, much less the Ultima line...


That is a tough one. When i demoed back in the day, the F30 sounded better than the F50. The price difference was huge..like $3500 or so. After tweaking the design the F50a came out with the F32. I wasn't really impressed with either (compared to their predecessors).

However, after my last visit, they had a used pair of F50a and the new F52, and i can say there is a HUGE improvement with the F52. An unbelievable speaker!

The Concerta line are excellent speakers as well, but it was like test driving a Corvette at a Porsche dealer.

kexodusc
07-20-2010, 07:57 AM
Kex, have you ever heard any Dynaudio? If so, which models? Just curious your opinion. I haven't heard FoCal yet.
Yep, heard several Dynaudio speakers models over the last few years, and a good friend of mine still owns the Audience 82's so I hear them a fair bit when I visit. I visit Hi-fi shops in some towns I travel in for work in my free time.

I have not heard the Excite speakers yet, I don't think. Or the big Evidence speakers.

I really like the Dynaudio speakers I have heard, I find them a tad more pricy compared to some brands in their cheaper lines and then very competitive as you climb the ladder. I'm not into laid-back so Dyanudio is probably closer to what I like in a speaker.

Their drivers and speakers are top notch and I've even seen inside the 82's. Dynaudio does not cut corners like some other companies I've seen at the price point. Maybe they take it a bit too far if anything. But from what I've seen Dynaudio fans tend to upgrade to more Dynaudio. I like them way more than say B&W, NHT or the Pardigm Sigs as far as more established brands go.

I can't fault them really - other than I don't believe there's any reason why some of their speakers need a bit more current to sound optimal, but that's just me nitpicking cause I've heard them sound good on small receivers too. If I had to criticise them i find some of the protruding baffles on the contour and confidence lines to be a bit of an eyesore but I love the looks of the Excite if I could ever find a set to spend some time with.

I'm mostly familiar with the Audience and Contours models.

Think I even heard BBC uses them as reference monitors - not sure which models though?
Why you shoping again?

Mr Peabody
07-20-2010, 11:12 AM
I'm not shopping for anything new. I have the Klipsch to play around with. But in doing so I noticed a bit of a dark character to the Dyn's that wasn't apparent to me before. However, the Dyn's are tough to beat for fidelity. For instance, there's a Pink Floyd song with a chorus I heard it on a Gallo set up and then at home on the Klipsch, it wasn't until hearing it again on my t2.5's that the passage was rendered with all the detail. I guess sometimes you have to wander a bit to get reassurance or make sure what you have is still best for you. The Dyn's are excellent with fine detail and fidelity but it's like instead of openness around instruments there's a bit of darkness if that makes any sense, it's hard to put into words.

I haven't heard many Excite but they are similar sound to the Audience.