Floating Turntable

[poppachubby]

Using industrial strength cabling, I made a cross member which acts like a cradle. NO vibration, quite nice...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4777698112_00a1233501.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4777067867_66a235f87a.jpg

[frenchmon]

Hey thats a good Idea Pops.

I've too made something that has no vibrations. Take a look

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/708/pict0047v.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/pict0047v.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1615/pict0043g.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/pict0043g.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


I may add a base to sit the table on. The feet are made of ceramic. The table sounds great.

[poppachubby]

You have been hangin out with the AR analog crowd! :6:

Looks good man. I am at work right now. I cut a large piece of solid steel, cleaned it and painted it black. I will either sit it under the TT in the cradle or revert back to using feet.

Is that a Technics I see?!? Which model?

[frenchmon]

Its a SL D3. I paid a whopping $12 big ones for it. Its in great shape the only thing wrong with it is the lid has scratches in it. It had an Audio-Technica AT96E cart with a broken stylus on it. It sounds really good to, but not as good as the 2.1

[PeruvianSkies]

Hey thats a good Idea Pops.

I've too made something that has no vibrations. Take a look

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/708/pict0047v.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/pict0047v.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1615/pict0043g.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/pict0043g.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


I may add a base to sit the table on. The feet are made of ceramic. The table sounds great.


Ummmmm..... what about the heat from the amp so close to the turntable?

[frenchmon]

Ummmmm..... what about the heat from the amp so close to the turntable?

No problem...not that much heat and I dont blast music terribly loud. The clearance is 3 and a quarter

[PeruvianSkies]

No problem...not that much heat and I dont blast music terribly loud. The clearance is 3 and a quarter

I think there is a point of diminishing return when it comes to the elevation of the feet though, as we all know that the higher you raise something the more likely it is to be unsteady, at the same time, some height is ideal to get isolation as well.

As far as the heat is concerned, I have always seen warnings from even the most basic of receivers to at least leave a distance of 6 inches from the top, that particular amp I have no doubt is able to control much of it's heat through the heat sinks, but it's still going to produce heat moving upwards over the course of extensive listening, personally I would just rather not worry about it and keep the components away from the top of each other.

[thekid]

Cool pix gentlemen-inspires me to get my Dual back in action.

[frenchmon]

I think there is a point of diminishing return when it comes to the elevation of the feet though, as we all know that the higher you raise something the more likely it is to be unsteady, at the same time, some height is ideal to get isolation as well.

As far as the heat is concerned, I have always seen warnings from even the most basic of receivers to at least leave a distance of 6 inches from the top, that particular amp I have no doubt is able to control much of it's heat through the heat sinks, but it's still going to produce heat moving upwards over the course of extensive listening, personally I would just rather not worry about it and keep the components away from the top of each other.

The feet I made from ceramic. Each layer is glued to the next layer so its very solid. I am thinking of putting a ceramic platform on top of the feet. I also may make more feet but only half the hight of whats under my turntable. These shorter feet would go under amp and preamp.

As far as the heat factor...there is plenty of space to the sides and the front and back for the heat to escape. After long periods of listening I touch to see if its hot and it never is. So the heat is really not a factor.

The elevation really helps improve the sound.

[PeruvianSkies]

The feet I made from ceramic. Each layer is glued to the next layer so its very solid. I am thinking of putting a ceramic platform on top of the feet. I also may make more feet but only half the hight of whats under my turntable. These shorter feet would go under amp and preamp.

As far as the heat factor...there is plenty of space to the sides and the front and back for the heat to escape. After long periods of listening I touch to see if its hot and it never is. So the heat is really not a factor.

The elevation really helps improve the sound.


I've been to a lot of audio shows and have seen some of the best setups from some of the most prolific high-end companies around the world, not once have I ever seen them place their turntable on their amp, nor have I seen legs that were used to give more than about 2-3 inches at MAX. Most cones or feet for isolation give an extra 1-2 inches at best.

While I can certainly appreciate the creativity behind ceramic feet and certainly trying to avoid the heat issue from the amp, I think that is the main reason for using the feet and I doubt it really does much for the sound.

[frenchmon]

I've been to a lot of audio shows and have seen some of the best setups from some of the most prolific high-end companies around the world, not once have I ever seen them place their turntable on their amp, nor have I seen legs that were used to give more than about 2-3 inches at MAX. Most cones or feet for isolation give an extra 1-2 inches at best.

Well... I've not been around the world, but I lived on the east coast and saw a lots of very expensive set-ups and gear including TT's...and been to the west coast and Chicago, Houston and a few other places like Missippi and not once did I see any TT's with added Isolation on any of the tables in any of the hi-fi shops. But you know what? I've seen a bunch of TT owners with isolation...some ceramic, some marble, some granite some wood, and some rubber and cork. I've seen suspended platforms 5 inches above the gear, and I've seen TT's 2 feet above the gear on its own stand attached to the wall. So your point is well taken...that you've not seen much.


While I can certainly appreciate the creativity behind ceramic feet and certainly trying to avoid the heat issue from the amp, I think that is the main reason for using the feet and I doubt it really does much for the sound.

Well, have you ever tried isolation on gear? Don't sound like it. You need to read up on it. I put isolation on my SACDP and my CDP and the sound improve a lot. I was stunned. I even started a thread about it on another forum about the improved sound so others tried it and where just as surprised at how much better the music was. Same with the TT. The sound improved greatly. Read up on it Peruvian..


I was concerned about heat until I saw noob do it. So I took a chance and did it and checked the heat...the heat sinks work great on the amp...as I told you in the other posting in this thread, the heat is not an issue... after long hours I check the heat and its not an issue. But what I am worry about is the transformer in the amp sitting bellow the TT and my cart. No hum for now but I will be adding a platform to the legs.

[poppachubby]

I've been to a lot of audio shows and have seen some of the best setups from some of the most prolific high-end companies around the world.

Hahahahaha....oh man.



So your point is well taken...that you've not seen much.

YES!! frenchie you crack me up, for a minute I thought you took the bait. You're still the man. BTW, did you add a platform under the TT?

[frenchmon]

Im going to try and add the platform this weekend.

[frenchmon]

Hey Pops...here is a picture of my TT platform.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2741/pict0060dw.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/pict0060dw.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Not the best pictures...I can take more with better lighting.

[Dual-500]

Nice soltuion. I did quite a bit of mobile and club DJ system work back in the 80's.

Became very friendly with parametric eq's as a result.

Your solution reminds me of a club installation I did in an upstairs disco.

The club was a reopening of a former disco. The building was originally a large ice house adjecent to a rail spur. Brick walls and wood trussed on the top floor, and wood floors also upstairs. The place was remodeled from the original disco and dance floor. Dance floor was increased in size and the DJ booth was moved from the dance floor area to the outside wall at the edge of the dance floor.

We did the initial install and used cabinets to set the DJ console and turntables on. Worked ok with some parametric tuning to reduce/eliminate feedback. But, when the dance floor got packed, the swaying would cause records to skip even using the 3g pro phono cartridges.

So, we build a new turntable console with 2x6's and topped it with 1" particle board. Then suspended it from the ceiling joists with 5/8" all thread. The mass of the console, and the suspension from open ceiling joists that were about 8' from the exterior brick walls worked great. The DJ's loved it and there were no issues from "bumping" or when cueing the other turntable.

Back then we used Technics SL-1200 turntables and a Studiomaster mixing console with SAE 2800 parametric eq.

Suspension is a great way to provide feedback isolation.

I've been all over the world and still ain't seen much - let alone know much. One nice thing about this hobby is the learning never stops......

[Dual-500]

Hey Pops...here is a picture of my TT platform.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2741/pict0060dw.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/pict0060dw.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Not the best pictures...I can take more with better lighting.
Using the mass of a power amp for vibration damping is another great trick.

I am building up another rack for my HT/Music system and plan on mounting the DVD/CD player low in the rack above a large UPS and underneath the largest power amp. At higher listening levels, I've had problems in the past with CD players skipping. Not to mention turntables.

Good stuff.

[Dual-500]

Hey thats a good Idea Pops.

I've too made something that has no vibrations. Take a look

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/708/pict0047v.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/pict0047v.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1615/pict0043g.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/pict0043g.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I may add a base to sit the table on. The feet are made of ceramic. The table sounds great.
That center weight is awesome. Never considered adding mass to the platter - that looks like a great idea. Will have to try it some day.

[poppachubby]

Ya frenchie, I somehow missed your post with the platforms. Looks excellent man. More importantly I bet it functions very well. You're coming along super quick, I love it. Hey no need to check the temperature first, jump in!!

[frenchmon]

Pops for an entry level table it sounds darn good. The only problem is there is a little rumble when I put the cart to the album, but once the music starts I hear nothing but lovely music. I can jump up and down on the floor and nothing. Its a great tweak. The platform is porcelain. Now it don't sound as good as MrP's table...His table seemed to remove more of the noise and had a blacker background to the music, but for a entry level table, mine sounds really good. .

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Poppa,

This is pretty cool idea.
Do you think it would help fidelity if you apply some damper to wires?
Also, how long did it take to level your TT?

Have fun,
JRA

[Dual-500]

Hey Poppa,

This is pretty cool idea.
Do you think it would help fidelity if you apply some damper to wires?
Also, how long did it take to level your TT?

Have fun,
JRA
For damper do you mean springs or weights? Both?

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Steve,

I wasn't thinking anything particular in mind, but if I was to try something I may zip-tie small sheet of sorbothane near 4 posts. I'm sure there are better ways to approach this, but I always like to try a ghetto approach first.

I forgot who makes it, but I think there is a maple based isolation platform that utilizes wire suspension.

[Dual-500]

Hey Steve,

I wasn't thinking anything particular in mind, but if I was to try something I may zip-tie small sheet of sorbothane near 4 posts. I'm sure there are better ways to approach this, but I always like to try a ghetto approach first.

I forgot who makes it, but I think there is a maple based isolation platform that utilizes wire suspension.
I don't know about better ways. I was just curious as I've done a little of this in the past with the Pro DJ setups and thought I could learn something. We used parametric eq too as staging had issues many times. Probably not a solution that would qualify as HiFi! As I recall, it seems the L channel was more prone to feedback.

The platter weights are a real cool idea and see that's been around a while - probably a long while.

So basically you're considering adding mass to the corners of the supports on the stand?

It's all about damping (mass) and decoupling (isolation).

Yeah, I'm all about mock up or proof of concept testing too. It's the best way and also a fast way to get to a cure or test out an idea.

I've seen setups the used bicycle inner tubes with thick MDF or marble slabs, or bricks on top of them with TT on the slab.

[poppachubby]

Hey Poppa,

This is pretty cool idea.
Do you think it would help fidelity if you apply some damper to wires?
Also, how long did it take to level your TT?

Have fun,
JRA

Thanks JRA, regarding leveling, I have since added a steel platform. The height and length of the wires is controlled, and using a level the platform is too. From there I simply plop the TT on top.

Yes damping the wires would be a good idea, but to the touch, there isn't any vibration really. I think the platform now cancels it out.

Truthfully it's good but when cueing you must take a bit more care than usual.

The wire can be had from any surplus/big box hardware store. As for the platform I used an offcut from work.

Cheers

[Dual-500]

Thanks JRA, regarding leveling, I have since added a steel platform. The height and length of the wires is controlled, and using a level the platform is too. From there I simply plop the TT on top.

Yes damping the wires would be a good idea, but to the touch, there isn't any vibration really. I think the platform now cancels it out.

Truthfully it's good but when cueing you must take a bit more care than usual.

The wire can be had from any surplus/big box hardware store. As for the platform I used an offcut from work.

Cheers
This isn't criticism - honest discussion.

I would guess, that the wire suspenson will dampen vertical vibration better than lateral. Also. it will probably dampen lateral front to back better than lateral left to right. The stand itself will probably primarily transmit vertical vibration the most - IF it's on a wood floor and not a concrete slab. If it's on a concrete slab, then vertical vibration should be minimal and front to back the first significant vibration with left to right being the most significant.

When tuning Pro DJ setups, if memory serves me correctly - haven't done one in 20 years - seems like the left channel was the problem child. We used parametric eq to notch out the feedback. Not suggesting this solution to a HiFi setup - just for metion.

Why did you do this? I know you stated no vibrations. What vibrations? Did you hear actual feedback loops? Or just some ringing in the LF region? Did you notice it more in one channel than the other? Just curious.

[poppachubby]

This isn't criticism - honest discussion.

I would guess, that the wire suspenson will dampen vertical vibration better than lateral. Also. it will probably dampen lateral front to back better than lateral left to right. The stand itself will probably primarily transmit vertical vibration the most - IF it's on a wood floor and not a concrete slab. If it's on a concrete slab, then vertical vibration should be minimal and front to back the first significant vibration with left to right being the most significant.

When tuning Pro DJ setups, if memory serves me correctly - haven't done one in 20 years - seems like the left channel was the problem child. We used parametric eq to notch out the feedback. Not suggesting this solution to a HiFi setup - just for metion.

Why did you do this? I know you stated no vibrations. What vibrations? Did you hear actual feedback loops? Or just some ringing in the LF region? Did you notice it more in one channel than the other? Just curious.

Just playing around with an idea, no reason more exceptional than that. I have since removed it, changed around my rack and even sold the Kenny.

Appreciate the input.

[Dual-500]

Just playing around with an idea, no reason more exceptional than that. I have since removed it, changed around my rack and even sold the Kenny.

Appreciate the input.
Playing with an idea to what end? I'm trying to gain perspective to HiFi afficianado turntable issues/concerns and such.

What side effects are mitigated in home use? Booming? Actual system regeneration? LF ringing?

I understand these are probably "Beginner" or novice type questions - but, I haven't ran a turntable in a home setup a Dual back in 1978. Seems I had that on sitting on foam or some other damping media. And the equipment rack sat across the room from the speakers. It was on a laminated wood floor, pier and beam house against and interior wall with kitchen stove behind it.

I'm not playing with you here or "Baiting".

[poppachubby]

No, no. I don't feel you're baiting me at all! Yes the idea is to rid the deck of all vibrations. The Kenny is obviously not the most isolated design. You are thinking about audible effects, sometimes it's not about what's audible. The vibration can be subtle, and once it reaches the arm, reduce it's ability.

Properly isolation will allow the arm and cart to perform it's job and deliver everything within it's specs, to your ears. So in this case, it's what you're NOT hearing which is the issue.

[Dual-500]

Got it!

In Pro DJ setups on numerous stages, using Ultimate Support Systems or other utility tables with turntable consoles on them - and in some fixed installations in clubs, the system would go into regeneration before nominal system gain was achieved. Hence the use of parametric eq correction.

What you are doing is "fine tuning" or optimizing the system - for things that may or may not be readily perceptible - but certainly worthy of consideration.

That's the perspective I was seeking.

Thanks!