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Enochrome
06-28-2010, 09:17 AM
Hey all,

Just noticed a sale posting for an early 80's LINN LP-12 for $200.00?
Not sure if the guy can verify that it works: he does not have a cartridge
and it has been in storage. Worth bring a cart over and checking it out?

Cheers

JohnMichael
06-28-2010, 09:46 AM
Hey all,

Just noticed a sale posting for an early 80's LINN LP-12 for $200.00?
Not sure if the guy can verify that it works: he does not have a cartridge
and it has been in storage. Worth bring a cart over and checking it out?

Cheers



My first response was buy it. Then I thought about all the work to balance the suspension which can go out of adjustment over time. There are a lot of upgrades for the Linn so you could bring it up to current specs.

I was also curious which tonearm is on the table? Many people who bought a Linn mounted a different brand of arm. If it has the Linn Ittok I am back to yes buy it.

What it boils down to is do you want a table that requires a lot of hands-on adjustments or a set it and forget it ttable.

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 12:36 PM
John has made some good points. From a straight up value perspective....YES!! All day long!! Particularily if it's functioning, even if it's not it's still worthwhile. Think about it, this could be your last table you EVER need to buy, they are that good.

As John mentioned there are tons of upgrades available from Linn. I say grab it and start what will surely be a short road to TT greatness.

frenchmon
06-28-2010, 01:50 PM
Hey all,

Just noticed a sale posting for an early 80's LINN LP-12 for $200.00?
Not sure if the guy can verify that it works: he does not have a cartridge
and it has been in storage. Worth bring a cart over and checking it out?

Cheers

I would call the guy up and ask a few more questions, like when was the last time it played. Is it all stock? IF you can, try and go and listen to it. IF not its a crap shoot. Perhaps you can talk the guy down if he does not know if its working or not. If not then the crap shoot begins if you buy. IF you are handy with trying to restore your self, you can try and repair it if it needs it. You could buy it and take your time getting it repaired, when time and money allows for it. But still $200 claims is $200 claims. You could take that and put some more money with it and get a newer table that may sound just as good. Personally I have never heard a Linn table, but those Linn tables get very good reviews. A few weeks ago a guy listed a Linn table in our local craigslist. But he never listed a price. So I called the guy up and he wanted something like $1200 or $1400 dollars. For that money I would buy a new table and not a used table. But one thing is for sure....some of those old vintage tables have a bunch of character like they can tell you some good stories....or should I say, put out some very good music.

02audionoob
06-28-2010, 02:13 PM
If it were me, I'd just buy it and figure out what I have when I got it home. Surely your investment could be easily recouped, and then some, if you decided you didn't want it.

frenchmon
06-28-2010, 02:16 PM
If it were me, I'd just buy it and figure out what I have when I got it home. Surely your investment could be easily recouped, and then some, if you decided you didn't want it.

very good point!

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 02:18 PM
I would call the guy up and ask a few more questions, like when was the last time it played. Is it all stock? IF you can, try and go and listen to it. IF not its a crap shoot. Perhaps you can talk the guy down if he does not know if its working or not. If not then the crap shoot begins if you buy. IF you are handy with trying to restore your self, you can try and repair it if it needs it. You could buy it and take your time getting it repaired, when time and money allows for it. But still $200 claims is $200 claims. You could take that and put some more money with it and get a newer table that may sound just as good. Personally I have never heard a Linn table, but those Linn tables get very good reviews. A few weeks ago a guy listed a Linn table in our local craigslist. But he never listed a price. So I called the guy up and he wanted something like $1200 or $1400 dollars. For that money I would buy a new table and not a used table. But one thing is for sure....some of those old vintage tables have a bunch of character like they can tell you some good stories....or should I say, put out some very good music.

frenchie, you know I love ya but you're undervaluing the strength of this table. It's simply unlike anything else and is arguably one of the greatest tables ever produced. Do some research and you will discover the engineering that goes into an LP12, at any point of it's history.

Yes, he could put cash into a new table but will that table satisfy him for life? Because THAT is the kind of table an LP12 is. At 200 it's a giveaway working or not, unless it's condition is beyond reproach, which I doubt.

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 02:36 PM
someone on AK posted this table Eno and it appears that it's gone. Next time don't think about it, just run with the cash.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307320

frenchmon
06-28-2010, 04:20 PM
frenchie, you know I love ya but you're undervaluing the strength of this table. It's simply unlike anything else and is arguably one of the greatest tables ever produced. Do some research and you will discover the engineering that goes into an LP12, at any point of it's history.

Yes, he could put cash into a new table but will that table satisfy him for life? Because THAT is the kind of table an LP12 is. At 200 it's a giveaway working or not, unless it's condition is beyond reproach, which I doubt.

Wow...I'll do just that. Thanks Pops. I had no idea.

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 04:29 PM
frenchie, my local Linn dealer sent their analog guru to Linn's newest factory in Scotland. He told me many amazing thiings about it, but a couple that stuck in my mind were that the office people had basic windows which overlooked the parking lot.

The plant had ceiling to floor windows which wrapped around and overlooked the Scottish countryside. They obviously want their labourers inspired.

He also mentioned speaking to a millwright who used to work at Rolls Royce. He asked him why he came to Linn, the answer was tighter tolerances!!! He said Linn demand some of the tightest tolerances he had ever seen. Coming from Rolls Royce, you could only imagine.

Anyhow, not your typical audio company contracting Chinese factories.

frenchmon
06-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Is that a Pro-Ject arm on this linn? The Pro-Ject 9cc

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/218/linnmajiklp121121283.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/linnmajiklp121121283.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/592/9cc1286692.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/9cc1286692.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 04:31 PM
Yes it is. Believe it or not, the local Linn shop here are using that combo presently. I have sat in front of it for many hours. Once, they had it hooked into a Mac set up with Martin Logan ESL speak's. By far the best set up I have EVER heard.

frenchmon
06-28-2010, 04:35 PM
Yes it is...Read it here http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://wp.hi-fi-insight.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/linn-majik-lp12.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hi-fi-insight.com/linn-majik-lp12-turntable.html&h=315&w=460&sz=24&tbnid=tL2expL4foLHAM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLinn%2BLP-12&usg=__Iz5bG3gU1VDLj9Hv9DN95nZ9nc4=&sa=X&ei=KhYpTLKpEcuKnQfPiOx1&ved=0CCAQ9QEwBQ

linn-majik-lp12
Linn

After 35 years, the Linn LP12 Sondek has a baby brother, enter the Linn LP12 Majik, a budget version of the original turntable. The Linn LP12 Sondek has been a defining piece of hi-fi equipment so it will be interesting to see how well the Majik LP12 performs in the digital age as CD makes way for Hard Disk Servers and multi room media playback.

Available with a choice of five plinth colours (black, rosenut, maple, walnut and american cherry) the basic Majik LP12 retails around 1995 and comes as standard with Linn Solid Base, Linn Majik LP12 Power Supply, Project 9cc Arm and Linn Adikt MM Cartridge.

The other good news for prospective Linn Majik LP12 Turntable owners is that Linn offer several upgrade paths in the form of the Linn Lingo power supply, the new all aluminium Keel sub-chassis and armboard, Linn Akito tonearm, Linn Klyde moving coil cartridge, and the Trampolin base board. Although none of these upgrades are particularly cheap, they are all execeptionally well engineered in true Linn style and offer a high level of sound reproduction.

The Linn Majik LP12 Turntable can be auditioned at all good Linn dealers.

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 04:38 PM
Hahaha, nice find. Never heard one of those. The table I am speaking of is a Sondek however. Every now and again they change the arm on it, it's a house table.

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 04:41 PM
My tube tech,an audio sceptic, bought the Trampolin for his LP12 and swears up and down by it.

jrhymeammo
06-28-2010, 05:01 PM
My tube tech,an audio sceptic, bought the Trampolin for his LP12 and swears up and down by it.

I've never head a Linn TT either, but from what I've read over the years, Swearing is about only thing you can do "Up and Down" near this TT. I've entertained the idea before, but placing a TT in a different room or getting a 300lb dresser as a TT base isn't very ideal.

If wall-mount is an option....

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 05:14 PM
I've never head a Linn TT either, but from what I've read over the years, Swearing is about only thing you can do "Up and Down" near this TT. I've entertained the idea before, but placing a TT in a different room or getting a 300lb dresser as a TT base isn't very ideal.

If wall-mount is an option....

Maybe a little overstated? It's not for you, I get that.

Enochrome
06-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Yeah guys,

I missed that one. I hesitated because of "not another cash project, that I can't afford right now", but hey that's the breaks. I am listening to my Luxman with the OM20 blasting through my Mini Monitors and am loving it (also thanks to that great raquetball tweak thanks to you guys). In the halls of Hifi this pales in comparison to the Linn LP-12, but ya know: be thankful for what you have and focus and enjoy what you got inside first and apply that to what you have already. I think I am enjoying the DIY tweaks more than upgrade buying (audio science is tre' cool), although I can't wait for my Luxman R-3045 to get out of the shop ;)

Telling me what is that is really singing on your decks right now? What album makes your system feel like your audio best bud? Mine, which I am listening to now, is Wish you were Here by Pink Floyd, my system is giving it to me %110!!!!!

Cheers everyone!

02audionoob
06-28-2010, 08:13 PM
My turntable and my whole setup loves Grace Slick. Okay...maybe it's me that does. Jefferson Airplane spinning on my best bud.

Enochrome
06-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Noob, I was just listening to Surrealistic Pillow through my Grado. That is hands down one of the best albums from the sixties, up there with any Kinks, Stones,Beatles or Byrds. The song "Today" still floors me.

02audionoob
06-28-2010, 09:16 PM
Noob, I was just listening to Surrealistic Pillow through my Grado. That is hands down one of the best albums from the sixties, up there with any Kinks, Stones,Beatles or Byrds. The song "Today" still floors me.

The more I like a record, the more it stays out of my alphabetical stacks. Surrealistic Pillow never gets alphabetized.

E-Stat
06-29-2010, 08:19 AM
Just noticed a sale posting for an early 80's LINN LP-12 for $200.00?
I would have jumped on that for the table alone which would be easy to check whether or not the platter spun. I have a similar lineage 1975 Ariston RD-11s which continues to work just fine in my vintage system using an SME 3009 II. I'm only on the third belt!

rw

02audionoob
06-29-2010, 09:29 AM
I would have jumped on that for the table alone which would be easy to check whether or not the platter spun. I have a similar lineage 1975 Ariston RD-11s which continues to work just fine in my vintage system using an SME 3009 II. I'm only on the third belt!

rw

That's what I was thinking, too...get the table no matter what the arm and then put an SME on it.

basite
06-29-2010, 12:38 PM
that's no money for the Linn, too bad you didn't get it :(
big chance it'll turn up on ebay for several times that money...

but, if you're up for some more serious DIY'ing, look into a Lenco L-75, 78, 99,88, ... and give it a good plinth and a good arm, it'll blow the linn out of the water...

frenchmon
06-29-2010, 03:59 PM
that's no money for the Linn, too bad you didn't get it :(
big chance it'll turn up on ebay for several times that money...

but, if you're up for some more serious DIY'ing, look into a Lenco L-75, 78, 99,88, ... and give it a good plinth and a good arm, it'll blow the linn out of the water...

basite...can you post pictures of your Lenco? Im sort like a gear slut. I like audio porn. Just post pictures of all of whats below please if you dont mind?

Lenco L75 TT
* SME 3012 S2
* Rega RB-301
*Denon DL-103 in midas body
*Denon DL-304
*Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
*Lehmann audio black cube SE

E-Stat
06-29-2010, 06:52 PM
... look into a Lenco L-75, 78, 99,88, ... and give it a good plinth and a good arm, it'll blow the linn out of the water...
Perhaps. The L-75A I had in '72 wasn't that exceptional. The Technics SL-110/SME3009 that replaced it was significantly better.

rw

basite
06-30-2010, 02:17 AM
Perhaps. The L-75A I had in '72 wasn't that exceptional. The Technics SL-110/SME3009 that replaced it was significantly better.

rw

that's why we mod them :p

take a look here for those interested:

Lenco heaven (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php)

(sorry at mods if posting links to other forums is prohibited, and if so, please remove link...)

basite
06-30-2010, 02:18 AM
basite...can you post pictures of your Lenco? Im sort like a gear slut. I like audio porn. Just post pictures of all of whats below please if you dont mind?

Lenco L75 TT
* SME 3012 S2
* Rega RB-301
*Denon DL-103 in midas body
*Denon DL-304
*Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
*Lehmann audio black cube SE


I posted a pic already here somewhere, but I'll take some more photo's, in about a week or so, I'm expecting a new tonearm (Jelco SA-750D), and will be completing the new lenco build, hopefully :p

here's a prototype of the build I'm doing now,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/4447458313_9333a3fdf1_o.jpg

final build will be a nicer finished one, and slightly heavier too...

poppachubby
06-30-2010, 02:25 AM
Haven't got any further Bert?

basite
06-30-2010, 02:38 AM
Haven't got any further Bert?

school, lack of time, ...

I'm starting on it again now, design will remain mostly the same, be it a bit heavier and thicker plinth, new tonearm, further small details,...

going to get wood today :)

frenchmon
06-30-2010, 10:12 AM
I posted a pic already here somewhere, but I'll take some more photo's, in about a week or so, I'm expecting a new tonearm (Jelco SA-750D), and will be completing the new lenco build, hopefully :p

here's a prototype of the build I'm doing now,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/4447458313_9333a3fdf1_o.jpg

final build will be a nicer finished one, and slightly heavier too...

Ouuuuuu niiiiccccee Cant wait to see the finished product. Please do post more pictures.

E-Stat
06-30-2010, 11:21 AM
here's a prototype of the build I'm doing now....
Looks nice and decidedly different than a stock L-75. Where's the speed control lever? I think I spent all of about $125 for mine back then. :)

rw

basite
06-30-2010, 01:37 PM
Looks nice and decidedly different than a stock L-75. Where's the speed control lever? I think I spent all of about $125 for mine back then. :)

rw

it does, there are not only major differences in the look of it alone, there have been some changes under the hood too.

My inspiration started with seeing a member on lencoheaven (scott, aka "RFgumby") supporting the motor from below, the original motor is hung from the top plate, being supported/damped by 6 springs (3 under, 3 above the motor).

scott's interpretation of this was supporting the motor from below, so the possible vibrations are further away from the bearing and platter, thus resulting in less noise.

I decided to take this design a step further, with not only supporting the motor from below, but also mounting it on it's separate platform/plinth, in this case, that platform are the 2 blue stones, bonded together with a dampening layer (sort of a CLD design, where you use a hard material and a soft, absorbing material, to create a "dead"/non resonant total.
the stone weighs 35 kilos, which helps balancing and vibration absorption too (mass dampening theory, also found in various hifi racks and stands etc (think: filling speaker stands with lead shot or sand))

the bearing is sandwiched between the plinth and the "new" top plate (temporarily, for this prototype: a recycled metal cover of an broken old amplifier...), adding to the stability

the idler speed change has been changed drastically too, the original lenco uses a lever to do this, but I could not insert this in my current design, so I had to take some more drastic measures, the speed is now "set" at 33 1/3 rpm, and to change it I had to take of both platters, and remove 2 screws, then move the small plate where the idler arm is mounted on, and then insert the screws again, kinda hard to do, so I now worked out a design using a threaded rod, where the idler arm is mounted on (the arm is isolated with a rubber and brass bushing, the original one, mounted on a small shaft, which was mounted on the speed change mechanism, I now mounted that shaft on a bolt, which is moving over the threaded rod. When you turn the rod, the idler arm moves, thus changing the speed.

as you possibly also have noticed, there are 2 platters, this was an idea from another lencoheaven member and friend. Using 2 stacked platters, improves stability (sort of a huge flywheel...), the first prototype only had one platter, and this worked very good too, but I had another one lying around, so I just went ahead and kept on modding :D

The top plinth is isolated with cork in this prototype, the final design will use vibrapods, I had them under my previous lenco project and they worked beautifully :)



About the looks: I was inspired by the somewhat legendary and extremely cool looking Micro Seiki DQX1000, and the new and pretty unknown Vyger Timor & baltic...


DO notice, this is a VERY heavily modded Lenco, the basics are there, I even kept the infinite speed change, although in a different form, but this is far from a stock lenco, both in form as in performance, it took the advantages of a good idler (rythm, pace, liveliness and full, bodied sound, very good dynamics and punchy & tight lows), and tried to diminish the drawbacks of an idler driven system: possible rumble (even though the lenco didn't have as big problems with this as other idler drives...), not as dark background as a good belt drive (some noise), etc. In the end, I think this project, extreme as it may be, can be considered a succes (for me) :)

also notice, there are much much less extreme versions of lenco modding, I just went ahead and let my creativity take over :)
as I mentioned in a previous post, for those interested, definitely check out www.Lencoheaven.net

it was both a great challenge, and I took my time drawing everything out, measuring things and building it. It was both fun and frustrating, but in the end it was definitely worth it :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

jrhymeammo
07-03-2010, 02:55 PM
I'm expecting a new tonearm (Jelco SA-750D)
.

Hey B,

I'm curious to why you decided to go with the 750-D, instead of the 750-LB.
9" or 12", the Jelco sounds like a great choice for cartridges you have.:3:

jrhymeammo
07-03-2010, 03:03 PM
Maybe a little overstated?

A little?
But I'm sure when things are setup properly, it would eat most of mass loaded TT alive.

basite
07-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Hey B,

I'm curious to why you decided to go with the 750-D, instead of the 750-LB.
9" or 12", the Jelco sounds like a great choice for cartridges you have.:3:


I needed the arm to use with the Denon DL-304, which has a slightly higher compliance than the 103, so the 12" arm would be too heavy...
but the 9" is then again heavy enough to use with a 103 cart, if I ever decided to swap :)


other than that, cost, the jelco 9" is costing me enough already, I also had to buy this as an "emergency buy", as the previous Rega RB-301 wiring decided to break, again. Rewiring isn't quite working out as I was hoping, so back in it's box it goes until I feel like rewiring it again...

I'm very curious at how it performs, it should arrive here in a couple of days :), from what I can tell from photos and all, the jelco arm does have a better finish, and appears to be better made than the rega...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

jrhymeammo
07-04-2010, 05:09 AM
Ah, I see. It seems the 750-LB is about $250 USD higher than the 750-D in Europe.
Here is US, the cost difference is only $100 so I didn't even think about that.

Wouldn't the DL304 be better matched with the SME, and the DL103 be better match with the 750-D? It's my understanding that SME has lower mass than the Jelco.

Let us know how the Jelco sounds. I think you'll be the first one from AR.com to play with the Jelco arm, so we would love to hear how it performs. I, especially, would like to know how they perform with cartridges with med-high compliance.

Have Fun,

basite
07-04-2010, 01:45 PM
Wouldn't the DL304 be better matched with the SME, and the DL103 be better match with the 750-D? It's my understanding that SME has lower mass than the Jelco.

Let us know how the Jelco sounds. I think you'll be the first one from AR.com to play with the Jelco arm, so we would love to hear how it performs. I, especially, would like to know how they perform with cartridges with med-high compliance.

Have Fun,


I'll definitely let you know, including all the photos and text describing it :),

I don't know the exact mass of the SME arm, but it's the 3012, which was fairly high mass :p

Keep them spinning bro,
Bert.

02audionoob
07-04-2010, 02:10 PM
I've read the effective mass of the 3012 was 14 grams...which doesn't seem all that heavy to me when you consider that the SME headshell was pretty light.

basite
07-05-2010, 01:19 AM
indeed, that comes as a surprise :p

the Jelco shouldn't weigh that much more, it should work fine with the 304...
304's compliance is 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne, which is pretty medium, it's not a high compliance cart at all, but not as low as the 103 too with 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne

keep them spinning,
Bert.

jrhymeammo
07-05-2010, 04:56 AM
The Jelco is said to have the tonearm mass of 20g with supplied headshell, so I think it'll be a great match for your 103.
As for your 304, I think it deserves your 12" arm!!

DL-304
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+ DL304&cm=7&dc=14&search=search


DL-103
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+ DL103&cm=8.5&dc=5&search=search

02audionoob
07-05-2010, 06:43 AM
I did some searching and found an SME chart for calculating resonant frequency based on compliance and a chart of effective mass for that family of tonearms. Given that this looks like the SME documents, it seems like it must include the standard headshell, which would make for a total of 14 grams for the 3012, rather than 14 plus a headshell. If that's the case, the difference between the SME and the Jelco would be significant.

One note about compliance...I think with Denon you might have to apply a multiple of 1.5 to 2.0 with their compliance numbers. I've read several times that the Japanese manufacturers are measuring their compliance at a higher frequency (100 Hz) than the western world (10 Hz). By the chart, though, raising the 304's compliance of 14 to 21 doesn't bump it out of the shaded area on the resonance chart.

basite
07-05-2010, 08:12 AM
The Jelco is said to have the tonearm mass of 20g with supplied headshell, so I think it'll be a great match for your 103.
As for your 304, I think it deserves your 12" arm!!

DL-304
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+ DL304&cm=7&dc=14&search=search


DL-103
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+ DL103&cm=8.5&dc=5&search=search


looking at the charts, the 304 will actually work pretty good with the Jelco, I might change the original headshell for a lighter one though..;

one note about my 103: it's modded with a Midas body, so the original plastic body is removed and replaced by the midas anodized gold/aluminium body :) it's heavier now (by about 4-5 grammes. The SME is the only arm that I have that has a heavy enough VTF weight to handle it :)