3D TV and the formats

[Nasir]

I have kept an eye open for a LCD to eventually replace my big CRT which is of a rather high sentimental value. But the CRT just refuses to roll over and die!!! Over the past few years, its substitutes have gone from HD Ready to Full HD and now to 3D TV.
From the other thread related to " is 720p dead" a lot of useful information has been obtained, but things there seem to be getting too hot for me to ask new questions. So perhaps a new thread is in order.
I understand the use of 720p for fast changing scenes like sports and 1080i for slow talk show like programs where the video information suffers little alterations. On the other hand, 1080p requires more bandwidth for transmission. So, with 3D TV knocking at our doors, what formats will be used or are being used ?
My cable TV company here in Portugal had 2 of the country´s World Cup 2010 preparation games in 3D!! Their site gives away very little in terms of formats being used for HD content and 3D contents.
So, I need to update myself with your inputs on the following matters:
Will cable companies seriously consider putting out HD content in 1080p, considering it takes up double the bandwidth ( correct me if I am wrong here) for sports? I am presuming that 720p is being used, of course.
What really happens when the World Cup 2010 games are being transmitted in 3D? That is, what format is being used here and is it really in HD?
Is Avatar, the movie, when played back using the new 3D Bluray players in its full 1080p glory?
And, lastly, the version 1.4 HDMI cables are required for 3D, but I have yet to see one on sale here let alone be shocked by the asking price!!!. I take it that HDMI cables are universal as I would buy a couple when I visit the USA.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have kept an eye open for a LCD to eventually replace my big CRT which is of a rather high sentimental value. But the CRT just refuses to roll over and die!!! Over the past few years, its substitutes have gone from HD Ready to Full HD and now to 3D TV.
From the other thread related to " is 720p dead" a lot of useful information has been obtained, but things there seem to be getting too hot for me to ask new questions. So perhaps a new thread is in order.
I understand the use of 720p for fast changing scenes like sports and 1080i for slow talk show like programs where the video information suffers little alterations. On the other hand, 1080p requires more bandwidth for transmission. So, with 3D TV knocking at our doors, what formats will be used or are being used ?

I am just going to answer your question technically, and then let the thread go.

For broadcast 720p and 1080i is going to be it. The FCC is not going to allocate any more bandwidth to broadcast at 1080p, they are trying to pare down what they have now and allocate more to the wireless companies.

With the compatibility of current generation of Bluray players(and the PS3) to play more layers of information on BR disc, you could see 4K resolution video on the Bluray format in the future. 3D on Blu-ray will use the active 3D technology(shutter method in the glasses) with 2 1080p streams in either checkerboard(reduced resolution), over and under, or side by side technology.

The Theaters are going to use polarized 3D(Real3D and IMAX 3D) as to keep costs down and remain compatible with SMPTE 3D standards. Maintainence is also cheaper with polarized 3D when large audiences are taken into consideration.

My cable TV company here in Portugal had 2 of the country´s World Cup 2010 preparation games in 3D!! Their site gives away very little in terms of formats being used for HD content and 3D contents.
So, I need to update myself with your inputs on the following matters:
Will cable companies seriously consider putting out HD content in 1080p, considering it takes up double the bandwidth ( correct me if I am wrong here) for sports? I am presuming that 720p is being used, of course.
What really happens when the World Cup 2010 games are being transmitted in 3D? That is, what format is being used here and is it really in HD? [/quote]

I seriously doubt the cable companies will move up to 1080p as their model requires more output channels, not more resolution.

For the world cup, two streams of 720p in the side by side 3D format are used. 720p was chosen because ESPN' infrastructure was already designed for 720p, and all that needed to happen was to "twin" their infrastructure to handle 3D at that resolution. It was cheaper, and no degradation to the resolution standard ESPN has already adopted. It was also easier on the processing requirements(and bandwidth) for all of the cable companies that broadcasted the 3D stream(which meant easy upgrades to current boxes). I saw the world cup on a 55" samsung 3D television, and a 56" Sony XBR professional monitor with an outboard 3D decoder, and a LG3D 1080p projector on a 130" screen, all on Uverse, and both where astounding - with some minor issues.


Is Avatar, the movie, when played back using the new 3D Bluray players in its full 1080p glory?

Absolutely. The same way you say it in the theater is the same way it will look on video when you take into a few requirements. 3D will look better on larger screens than smaller ones. You will have to sit at the proper distance based on the height and width of your television to get the proper immersive effect without giving yourself a headache. Calibration will be more essential in getting the 3D right. The set's themselves will output the proper light output to compensate for 3D effect on contrast.


And, lastly, the version 1.4 HDMI cables are required for 3D, but I have yet to see one on sale here let alone be shocked by the asking price!!!. I take it that HDMI cables are universal as I would buy a couple when I visit the USA.

Remember, this is rather early in this format's cycle. As time goes on the price of all of the accessories for 3D will go down - from the display, to the glasses, to the HDMI cables. The players themselves are already inexpensive even when compared to a good non 3D player.($499 for the oppo, and $399 for the 3D players).

These are just answers to the technical aspect of 3D. I am sure a certain poster will come flying in with his uniformed(and dated) personal opinion of 3D.

[Nasir]

Sir Terrence the Terrible,
Thank you so much for your post. You more or less confirmed what I suspected, but I would rather ask than guess. Many is a time I have asked these cable TV companies salesmen and the rather prettier salesgirls if the sports pay channel is 720p or 1080i, and the answer I get back has been that its HD ( Of course, they must think that I AM the dummy here !! ). Then I checked out their sites, no mention of any formats, they might as well be flogging SD, but that's not true since I have seen some games and even without my prescription glasses I could tell that it was indeed HD.
Another thing you are so right about is calibration OR at least reasonably close to calibration!! These LCDs as delivered have some serious color issues, many is a time I have visited peoples homes only to be blinded by unnaturally intense colors. OK, I know everybody has different tastes, but people are just too afraid to try different color options not to mention the horror of a guest screwing with the colors of their new toy!! There have been times when I have tamely suggested that the colors could be more softer and the backlight slightly dimmer...... etc.... at least I try!!!
I also checked out the Samsung LED LCD and Panasonic Plasma 3D TVs, but with their commercial content and the Monsters vs Aliens 3D movie. I came away with the impression that the Panasonic shutter specs were flickering whereas the Samsungs did not have this annoyance.....or maybe its me ..... or maybe the specs were faulty.... any thought or experiences, anyone?
Finally, how critical is the response time of the LCDs when used for 3D content.?

[pixelthis]

Sir Terrence the Terrible,
Thank you so much for your post. You more or less confirmed what I suspected, but I would rather ask than guess. Many is a time I have asked these cable TV companies salesmen and the rather prettier salesgirls if the sports pay channel is 720p or 1080i, and the answer I get back has been that its HD ( Of course, they must think that I AM the dummy here !! ). Then I checked out their sites, no mention of any formats, they might as well be flogging SD, but that's not true since I have seen some games and even without my prescription glasses I could tell that it was indeed HD.
Another thing you are so right about is calibration OR at least reasonably close to calibration!! These LCDs as delivered have some serious color issues, many is a time I have visited peoples homes only to be blinded by unnaturally intense colors. OK, I know everybody has different tastes, but people are just too afraid to try different color options not to mention the horror of a guest screwing with the colors of their new toy!! There have been times when I have tamely suggested that the colors could be more softer and the backlight slightly dimmer...... etc.... at least I try!!!
I also checked out the Samsung LED LCD and Panasonic Plasma 3D TVs, but with their commercial content and the Monsters vs Aliens 3D movie. I came away with the impression that the Panasonic shutter specs were flickering whereas the Samsungs did not have this annoyance.....or maybe its me ..... or maybe the specs were faulty.... any thought or experiences, anyone?
Finally, how critical is the response time of the LCDs when used for 3D content.?

Not much, since 3D requires at least a 120hz TV, with a special plug for3d glasses.
Instead of generating a false frame between real frames, for 120 hz, the set shows
first one side and then another of 3d programming.
ANYWAY, 120HZ sets tend to have the fastest lcd elements, so speed wont be a problem.
Dont worry about it, 3D has crashed and burned everytime it has been tried,
and this "new" 3d has the same problems with headaches, etc.
Eventually the type not requiring glasses might gain some popularity, but the type with glasses is basically DOA out the door, an expensive boondoggle showing just how desperate ELECTRONICS COMPANIES are to find something, anything
to keep sales up in a world with LCD sets that last 20 to 30 years.
But 3D is a gimmick, the mind is difficult to fool, and this expensive gimmick will
go the way of eight track soon.:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I told you. No technical nothing, just opinion(and uneducated at that, he has never seen 3D currently in theaters), and a bunch of words. So freakin predictable it is not even funny....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir Terrence the Terrible,

Finally, how critical is the response time of the LCDs when used for 3D content.?

It is very critical, which is the reason you have only seen two companies(with the top performing 2D panels) releasing them now.

And to counter Pix's claim that LCD's will maintain 1080p resolution when objects move...here you go. While the testing didn't test some higher end Sony's, and Samsung, it did test enough televisions for you to walk away with a good idea of what going on.

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/guides/plasma-vs-lcd-3d-tv/

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-the-hdtv-resolution-you-expected-125-2008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/

While these tests are dated(back to 2008) their performance for 2009 has not been much better(except that more televisions in Sony and Samsung's line passed all of the tests, and maintain full resolution with motion).

Vizio's for the four year in the row finished at the bottom of the pack with only a Sharp set doing worse(and not by much either).

[pixelthis]

It is very critical, which is the reason you have only seen two companies(with the top performing 2D panels) releasing them now.

And to counter Pix's claim that LCD's will maintain 1080p resolution when objects move...here you go. While the testing didn't test some higher end Sony's, and Samsung, it did test enough televisions for you to walk away with a good idea of what going on.

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/guides/plasma-vs-lcd-3d-tv/

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-the-hdtv-resolution-you-expected-125-2008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/

While these tests are dated(back to 2008) their performance for 2009 has not been much better(except that more televisions in Sony and Samsung's line passed all of the tests, and maintain full resolution with motion).

Vizio's for the four year in the row finished at the bottom of the pack with only a Sharp set doing worse(and not by much either).

Thanks for proving my point, personality impaired one.
That HD_GURU site is so backed by PANASONIC that its trimed in
PANNY BLUE, sure, you're gonna beleive a shill site that is backed by a company stuck with a white elephant PLASMA screen factory.
Sure, THEY dont have an agenda, DO THEY?
To paraphrase SAM CLEMENS, there are lies, damn lies, AND SOFTWARE
BASED "TESTS" full of made up malarky.
While you're visiting the whore site, be sure to check out the bright ads for Panny products, they fill about half the page.:1:

[bobsticks]

I don't like the glasses.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

There is a difference in being an advertiser, and a site sponser. Anyone with 1/100's of a brain can figure that out. Those with less, maybe not.

So I suppose that Amazon and Buy.com are also sponsers? Their banner is on the same page as the Panasonic.

I hope this worm gets eaten by a bird, because it ain't doing any good around here.

Worse yet, HDguru didn't do the test, they just published it on their site. The test was done by Best 3DTV website

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/

Do you see any Panasonic banners here? Nope, so the dummy's arguement has enough holes to double as a lawn sprinkler.

[kevlarus]

Thanks for proving my point, personality impaired one.
That HD_GURU site is so backed by PANASONIC that its trimed in
PANNY BLUE, sure, you're gonna beleive a shill site that is backed by a company stuck with a white elephant PLASMA screen factory.
Sure, THEY dont have an agenda, DO THEY?
To paraphrase SAM CLEMENS, there are lies, damn lies, AND SOFTWARE
BASED "TESTS" full of made up malarky.
While you're visiting the whore site, be sure to check out the bright ads for Panny products, they fill about half the page.:1:


So... have you looked at where the site may be located ?
Is it in the same state as Panny or even close ?

Oh, the colour.. yeah... just like... BLU-RAY

[Nasir]

I had the time to checkout the sites listed above, and found them informative, not to mention having experienced some of the stuff!!!
Personally, I read the information and and use it to make a supposedly better judgement call, and it is always better to be slightly misinformed than a completely ignorant buyer left at the mercy of those jargon jousting salesmen!! Many is a time that I have seen a customer steered towards a " better buy " as far as the sales staff are concerned.
Differing opinions are always welcome especially if they alert us as to what to watch out for. Thank you very much for suggesting MORE sites, please.

[pixelthis]

I had the time to checkout the sites listed above, and found them informative, not to mention having experienced some of the stuff!!!
Personally, I read the information and and use it to make a supposedly better judgement call, and it is always better to be slightly misinformed than a completely ignorant buyer left at the mercy of those jargon jousting salesmen!! Many is a time that I have seen a customer steered towards a " better buy " as far as the sales staff are concerned.
Differing opinions are always welcome especially if they alert us as to what to watch out for. Thank you very much for suggesting MORE sites, please.

WELL, LET ME TELL YOU about the latest gimmick that "salesmen use
to get their product sold.
They back a website , stay away from it, and let the person running it fill
it with misinformation, propaganda, slander against the competition, "tests"
that have nothing to do with reality.
YOU THINK that these sites are put up for free?
Who do you think pays the bills?
Look at all of the PANNY ADS ON TALKYS site.
You think this site will be impartial with PANNY PAYING THE BILLS?
Do you really think thats the way the world works?
THE "TESTS" ON THIS site defy any kind of proceedure that is followed for testing a TV,
the brand new "tests" are designed for one thing, to make certain sets look bad.
Its just about impossible for a LCD to pass, A PLASMA CAN PASS EASILY,
but that says nothing about how good either set is.
It depends on whatever parameters you program into the software, and what kind of "test" material you use.
Of course companies have been doing this type of propaganda forever.
Oddly, the biggest fans of HT fall for this stuff the worst, the great unwashed just buy what they like the best, which usually is a set that fails this rigged test.
THIS "TEST " says that a modern set, with LCD elements with a 8ms response time,
cant paint 60 frames a second, which is about the easiest thing for a modern set to do these days.
This "test" says that this TV has a resolution of 330 lines!
Thats about right... for a 1965 Managvox .
FOR COMPARISON, my old laser player had a consistent 400 lines.
Which is a problem with propaganda websites, they tend to get a little over-enthusiatic,
nobodies going to beleive this nonsense, or, even if they do, wont care, since
the set has a beautiful pic, and sold out in a few hours.
NOW, if they had made up something like 900 lines...
BUT THEY COULDNT, THEY COULDNT give this set its due, not in their DNA,
which is a certain type of viciousness that is a tad unnerving, to say the least:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The level of denial is just staggering. Wow.............

I guess this happens when you believe that bargain basement low performance suddenly becomes high end high performance.

Well, to each his own......LOLOLOLOL

Okay, Laser disc was a analog medium, which has no lag inherently, does not display anything in and of itself but just decodes and transfers a signal off of the disc and to a display device. A laser disc is not a display device, and certainly not a digital one. A laser disc has no Pixels, is not measured in Pixels, and does not have the characteristic of a pixel based device.

There was one Panasonic banner on the website, and one Buy.com and Amazon banner as well. No conspiracy there, as many websites sport advertising banners on the front page of their websites to offset costs. Magazines do it as well.

There are very few LCD panels that have an actual 8ms response time, and most that proclaim they have it skew proper testing protocol to get an optimal measurement time.

All of your second and third tier manufacturers use the off/on technique to measure the response of their panels. It is a fact that the off/on measurement is the fastest response a pixel can have. It is the off/on/off technique that shows real world response time with regular programming. Armed with the reality that the on/off response is a lot slower that the off/on response time, they skip that portion of the test. Vizio and Sharp are notorious for this, but so are all of the other third tier manufacturers. Refresh rates and panel response times are two separate processes, so refresh rates are not in the equation.

Two lines of LCD panels from Samsung and Sony passed all of the test with flying colors, so any notion that all LCD were designed to fail is just foolishness. Good panels will pass the test whether they are plasma or LCD, and that goes opposite for poorly designed panels from both technologies. The reality is, no plasma failed the testing.

The fact the website sports only three advertising banners shows that this is not their main means of support. Go to Hometheatershack.com, Hometheaterforum.com, AVSforum.com, and some of the other websites that have a front page full of advertising banners, it is obvious what supports those websites. The site that did the actual testing had NO advertising banners on any of its pages, that tells you that it is not supported by advertisers. So much for that argument.

The software used for testing motion resolution correspond with the refresh rate of the panel themselves. 60hz panels have camera shots taken at every 16.7 milliseconds, 120hz panels every 8.35 milliseconds, and 240hz panels every 4.175 milliseconds. This is how Joe Kane does his testing, it is how Displaydata does theirs, it is how the Hollywood digital testing center does theirs, it is how Gary Merson does his as well. All of these expert can't be wrong, and this certain poster right(especially considering their AV education versus his).

Testing clearly states(at least the expanded version does) that the older Vizio 1080p panels had 600-700 lines of resolution with a static pattern, and 330 lines with a moving pattern. Not 330 lines of resolution period. The newer Vizio XVT series do acheive a full 1080 lines of information on static patterns, but drops to between 300-400 lines during motion patterns. The problem is that LCD panel response times are finite, and when action moves faster than this finite time frame, there is blur. No amount of denial can change that.

The test gave the rating that each set earned, not some subject rating by an individual with an agenda. A camera and computer have no manufacturer or technology preference, it just tests televisions no matter which technology it uses. It is up to the strengths of the technology and processing - and how it is implemented, nothing more, nothing less.

Only the most delusional person would run around saying that everyone in the world is involved in a conspiracy to run Vizio down. Only the most delusional person would claim that everyone was lying, and they are telling the truth(once again given the AV education.). All these websites that are running motion tests, and coming up with the same conclusions are not owned by Panasonic. Does any really believe they would spend all of that money just to sell sets(along with advertising in print, on television, and on the web). The cost per set to do so would go through the roof.

The amount of denial and spin in a certain posters posts are much like blades in a blender going full speed. The spin of the blades is creating a spinning vortex completely void of fact and truth.

[Nasir]

We all have our biases, and I am no exception either.
In the days of the beloved CRTs, the Sony were more to my taste followed by Philips. My colleagues swore by the Philips. For them the Philips provided the better blacks... etc, but somehow for me the Sony picture was more appealing!!!
Then came the Plasmas, their price range put them out of the picture!!!
When the LCDs came out, the falling prices jump started my interest in them,and I began to devour the information in such sites, as they explained what to look for and at the same time hawk their favorite brands. We have to take these things with a pinch of salt...
I was partial to the first few Sony LCDs, but they seem to have fallen where the price range is competitive. My personal favorite LCDs are the series 9 Philips, with a price tag to match, as they are considered top of the range. Their price competitive lower ranges still win me over: the motion blur seems to be reduced...
I was bowled over by the first Philips full LED back lit TVs which even won the EISA awards a couple of years ago, but the asking price was way beyond what my wife would let me spend!! Today, they sell at half the price, but this 3D bug is biting me, so I am scouring for more information and opinions. Samsung and LG seem to lead the innovative field and are price friendly, OK, Sony is involved in the 3D push, too.
The dreaded Pioneer KURO series kept LCD manufacturers on their toes, Panasonic has some good reviews with their TH (?) series, not to mention the affordable Viera and the now unaffordable Viera 3D TV which is just too big for my living room. But, I did have a look at it, and got 2 questions to post almost immediately:
1. The 3D glasses seem to have an annoying flicker that has already been documented in one of the sites, no flicker was noticed by me using the Samsung 3D glasses.
2. I was way too close compared to normal watching distances, and yet it felt right!! However, I would still buy the correct TV size for normal program content and maybe try sitting closer when 3D program is on. The second reason for this decision is that we have a lot of SD channels and they can just be bearable to watch if the TV size is not as big as the size to distance charts claim.
There is a lot of advertising by LG for their new 3D TV, but no one here seems to have them, the same goes for Sony too. Philips on the other hand seem to be quite on that front, although I read somewhere that an optional box would be required.

[Woochifer]

So... have you looked at where the site may be located ?
Is it in the same state as Panny or even close ?

Oh, the colour.. yeah... just like... BLU-RAY

... and this site, which I guess is also part of the global Panny conspiracy :cool:

[Woochifer]

The level of denial is just staggering. Wow.............

I guess this happens when you believe that bargain basement low performance suddenly becomes high end high performance.

Well, to each his own......LOLOLOLOL

Indeed. Going back to the Panny blue color conspiracies is weak even by his diminished standards! :1:

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=Woochifer]Indeed. Going back to the Panny blue color conspiracies is weak even by his diminished standards!

[bobsticks]

... and this site, which I guess is also part of the global Panny conspiracy :cool:

Dammit!!!...nobody told me that I was a part of a global conspiracy or I'da already gotten my schwerve up...

"Go Panny...It's ya berfday...Go Panny...getcha blue on...!!"



--sticks: global conspiracy lackey

[pixelthis]

Dammit!!!...nobody told me that I was a part of a global conspiracy or I'da already gotten my schwerve up...

"Go Panny...It's ya berfday...Go Panny...getcha blue on...!!"



--sticks: global conspiracy lackey

Panny is a great company, at least they make great products.
I have two TECHNICS turntables, both made by PANNY, both still work, a 25 year old alarm clock of theirs still works also.
But their marketing dept is vicious, and you gotta understand, Sony, SAMSUNG,
and PANNY , have worked decades to create brand names, and who is the number one seller of TV sets in the world?
VIZIO!
Why the nerve of them!
You see, people dont care about a name, they wont pay more for a name.
So the get the best looking, economical set they can find...VIZIO.
So the mud has been flying, biased "tests", inuendo, lawsuits, you name it.
I HAVE been doing this for fourty years, and have never seen a company attacked like this one.
YOU DO REALIZE THAT SIR TALKY AND SEVERAL OTHERS ON THIS SITE are
corporate shills, dont you?
Ever notice that TALKY ONLY POSTS DURING WORKING HOURS?
Thats because coming onto websites like this, and slamming the competition
is his job.
What PANASONIC and others dont realize is, that creating an exelent brand name,
putting all of that work into it, is undone when they start acting like a bunch of thugs.
DO THEY THINK THAT PEEPS ARE STUPID?
AT ANY RATE there kis an alliance against VIZIO , but doesnt matter, they will continue
on, because of their combination of quality and price.
Which is why I bought one, although being a Sony man I probably wont buy another,
but they are still a good bargain for HT on the cheap.:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Some clarifications to some so called facts proported by the twisting and untwisting device.

Vizio is not the number one seller of LCD's. They were for a couple of quarters in 2009, but Samsung has been also a top seller beating Vizio a couple of quarters as well. When Vizio outsells everyone else for a full year, then it can be known as the number one seller of LCD televisions. It ain't there yet. In spite of a claim that folks won't pay for a name, Samsung, Sony, and Panasonic have been selling a lot of televisions, especially at the bottom of their lines. So apparently folks do buy televisions just for their names. Considering Sony is the most trusted brand name, a name does take you somewhere.

Definition of shill:
A shill is a person who is paid to help another person or organization to sell goods or services.

I work for Disney, a company that does not sell televisions - it sells programming. If Pixel wants to make the claim that Sony, Samsung or Panasonic employs me to push their sets, it would be best for him to prove this with actual evidence, not just words to feed his paranoia and conspiracy theories. Pix, where is your evidence that these three companies have paid me to push their products? Also if someone was paid to push their sets, they would have to prove their "pushing" has produced results. How is that accomplished in this case Pixy? Anyone want to bet more paranoid conspiracies come out of that answer.

Can the little RGB twisting device prove that I only post during work hours, cause if 12 midnight is known as a working hour, then I am guilty. Besides the clock on this website is not representative of my local time when I post. You could drive an 18 wheeler through the hole in that statement.

Example, I just completed a post on the future of HDMI at 1:00pm my time, and the website clock said it was posted at 8:54pm.

Uh oh HDMI is in trouble!!!
Sir Terrence the Terrible
Today 08:54 PM
by Sir Terrence the Terrible

What is wrong with this picture?

Now we have this paranoid conspiracy theory that somehow Panasonic, Samsung, and Sony have it in for Vizio. Where is the proof of that? Panel response time tests? Sorry, but they didn't invent the test, and their sets go through the testing as well.

We have now seen pages of rants, conspiracy theories, denials, and a prodigous amount of ignorance and foolish all in the defense of a product that everyone knows is not the best quality, is budget minded(with all of the cut corners to keep it that way), and is known to be low performing. When you have several very legitimate sources all reporting the same performance from the same brand, where there is smoke, there is fire. No amount of denial, no conspiracy theory or ignorant rant is going to change that.

Now if there is anyone out there who like the twisting and untwisting one believes the Vizio is a budget minded high performance product, raise your hand. I would like to see what tests you found that prove this, as anecdotal claims just do not cut it.

At the end of the twisting and untwisting individual post he claims himself a Sony man(oh really!), and probably would not buy another Vizio. Well if we could not change his mind on Vizio, maybe his buying habits are up for grabs. At any rate, why defend a product that you would not buy again - and why won't the most dedicated proponent of a certain cheap brand buy products from the brand again? Can someone say see the light? Yeah they are a bargain(if you like black screens, and calls to horrible customer service), and they certainly are cheap(quality wise and price).

[Nasir]

Gee, these threads are heated.
After checking various other sites, I would have to come to the conclusion that the info so far supplied by our good Sir seems to be consistent with all that is actually happening. So, for whatever reason our Sir Terrance the Terrible takes the time and effort to lay it out for us, speaking for myself, I am truly grateful, and can only encourage him on with these words : Thank you and please keep on the good work, you do deserve my gratitude.
I happened to come across this forum for another reason, and found the encouragement and help in resolving my ESL problems. So, now I try to regularly point others in hopefully the right direction. The motto here should be : YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!
As for the 3D issues, I intend to wait a little, but I have noticed in some stores here in Portugal, that for LCD and 3D capable LCDs the difference is almost 100€ ( USD 120 ) and considering the fact that a pair of glasses is thrown in with the package, there is really no cause for alarm.
However, for the extra bright LED LCDs, this price difference maintains a status symbol inference.
Now, the plasmas seem to be getting brighter still and with their inherent favorable response times they would seem to pave the way into this 3D " gimmick" and maybe live to fight another day.
Obviously, on paper the "side by side" format is half the resolution of 720p, but I have yet to see it with my own eyes to comment on it. All I can say at this moment is that the SD content when viewed on these superb LCDs is enough to make one cry in one´s beer or milk accordingly ( I am allergic to beer but not to wine and other spirits.)
I saw the 3D movie Clash of the Titans, or some similar name, even the movies have something that's lost in translation, and was pleased with the effects. I am told that AVATAR was truly an experience, but sadly I never got to take the little woman to the cinemas. The Iron Lady does not like ANY body counts, so I get to see all the shameless action when I am away from home, after all some of us get our kicks from naughty to nasty .........

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Gee, these threads are heated.
After checking various other sites, I would have to come to the conclusion that the info so far supplied by our good Sir seems to be consistent with all that is actually happening. So, for whatever reason our Sir Terrance the Terrible takes the time and effort to lay it out for us, speaking for myself, I am truly grateful, and can only encourage him on with these words : Thank you and please keep on the good work, you do deserve my gratitude.
I happened to come across this forum for another reason, and found the encouragement and help in resolving my ESL problems. So, now I try to regularly point others in hopefully the right direction. The motto here should be : YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!
As for the 3D issues, I intend to wait a little, but I have noticed in some stores here in Portugal, that for LCD and 3D capable LCDs the difference is almost 100€ ( USD 120 ) and considering the fact that a pair of glasses is thrown in with the package, there is really no cause for alarm.
However, for the extra bright LED LCDs, this price difference maintains a status symbol inference.
Now, the plasmas seem to be getting brighter still and with their inherent favorable response times they would seem to pave the way into this 3D " gimmick" and maybe live to fight another day.
Obviously, on paper the "side by side" format is half the resolution of 720p, but I have yet to see it with my own eyes to comment on it. All I can say at this moment is that the SD content when viewed on these superb LCDs is enough to make one cry in one´s beer or milk accordingly ( I am allergic to beer but not to wine and other spirits.)
I saw the 3D movie Clash of the Titans, or some similar name, even the movies have something that's lost in translation, and was pleased with the effects. I am told that AVATAR was truly an experience, but sadly I never got to take the little woman to the cinemas. The Iron Lady does not like ANY body counts, so I get to see all the shameless action when I am away from home, after all some of us get our kicks from naughty to nasty .........

Nasir, glad to get the information out there. It is important to seperate the facts from the opinion here. Since I work in the industry, this kind of information flows like water. Bfalls is also a good source of information on this subject as well.

[pixelthis]

Nasir, glad to get the information out there. It is important to seperate the facts from the opinion here. Since I work in the industry, this kind of information flows like water. Bfalls is also a good source of information on this subject as well.

THE so called "information" you disseminate flows like something allright...
BUT IT SURE AINT WATER!:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

THE so called "information" you disseminate flows like something allright...
BUT IT SURE AINT WATER!:1:

You are so green it is pitiful. Being jealous of sombody because they know more than you leads to an inferiority complex of which I think you have in spades.

[3LB]

Will they ever make prescription 3D glasses?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Will they ever make prescription 3D glasses?

I am not sure about this one 3LB. I am sure you could change out the lense of the 3D glasses provided in the bundle.

I have never had a problem with getting the 3D glasses over my own, even though I don't wear my glasses at 3D screenings. The picture is so big, I don't need them!

[Nasir]

The other day, I had the opportunity to check out once again the big 3D 50in plasma screen by Panasonic, and this time the flicker that I had experienced at another store was no longer apparent, so I stand corrected for all those interested. Maybe it was a defective set of glasses or the battery was low or whatever, this time there was definitely no annoying flicker that I had previously experienced!!
Here, one is supposed to tell it as it really is, so be alert bit there really does not seem to be an issue with 3D flicker......