Lose your doubts about M/C sound

[Feanor]

Loose your doubts about the veracity of multi-channel sound ...

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 5
~ Micheal Tilson Thomas & San Francisco Synphony on SFS/BBC Blu-ray (See Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Score-Shostakovich-Symphony-No-Blu-ray/dp/B002SKF7HQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1276882946&sr=1-2))

There is no surround gimmickry here. The recording was made live before a Proms concert audience in 2007 in the Royal Albert Hall ... and you are there. The delivery medium is Dolby Digital TrueHD on Blu-ray. I hear no "harshness" or other digital nasties -- if you do, maybe it's because you don't know what a live orchestra actually sounds like.

Accompaning the music is synchronized video of the performance that features close ups of the conductor and orchestra members. This is extremely well done but I find it distracting. For one thing, while you see picture of a performer a few feet away, but the perspective of the music remains that of a good seat in the orchestra section, (and thank goodness for that). Also included separately is Tilson Thomas' excellent background on Shostakovich and the his Fifth Symphony which was composed in response to the pseudo-esthetic criticisms of the Soviet regime.

It so happens that Shostakovich's No. 5 is probably my favorite "fifth". Shostie's music here, as typical of him, is easily accessible modern classical, not terribly complex but with exquisite expressive nuance.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hUTtk1kdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Feanor,
I am willing to bet you will get nothing but crickets from this posting in this part of the forum. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

[Feanor]

Feanor,
I am willing to bet you will get nothing but crickets from this posting in this part of the forum. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
Yeah, I'm a contrarian masochist.

But it seems to me that better sound beginning today isn't OTL tube amps and single-driver,100 dB sensitivity speakers. This stuff is for anal retentives. The better sound is high resolution multi-channel with digital frequency, phase, and time correction. The proof is in the listening.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yeah, I'm a contrarian masochist.

But it seems to me that better sound beginning today isn't OTL tube amps and single-driver,100 dB sensitivity speakers. This stuff is for anal retentives. The better sound is high resolution multi-channel with digital frequency, phase, and time correction. The proof is in the listening.

As you well know, you are preaching to the loudest, baddest choir west of the Mississippi.

[poppachubby]

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/peeing-man.gif Multi Channel

[bobsticks]

Now you've done it Chubbs...oh, our first spat comin' up...let's not do it in front of the kids...

I have to side on Feanor with this. Multi-channel musical formats done with the understanding of how properly mix the nuances of reverberation and played on a well setup system are spectacular! I'm not talking about the cheesy effects in the back or the weird noncomformist tracks in the rear (huh?) but recordings done with forethought.

I've not heard the Shosty in question but all MTT & San Fran stuff in the Mahler series was beyond reproach as are the SACD remasters of John Coltrane & Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis & Joe Pass, Mongo Santamaria, Art Blakey and a host of others. Hell, even the 3 channel stuff from Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence are pretty damn fine.

I'm not saying only one method or medium is necessarily superior in all situations. Got a killer TT and a library of wax? Do it to it...Can't afford a well-matched, properly-properly setup Multi-Channel System?...then leave it alone because weak systems can destroy even the the most optimal source material...none of this negates the fact that the ability is within our grasp and maybe we should experience this before the urine-letting begins. :cornut:

There's a place at the table for everyone.

[poppachubby]

Have you forgotten my Return to Forever thread? Perhaps you missed it...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=34335

Just stirring the pot...ty. BTW, I picked up this today. Near mint on euphoric, coloured and archaic vinyl. Marcus Miller plays bass on the whole thing. :2:

http://www.media.wmg-is.com/media/portal/media/cms/images/rhino/cvrs/075992365024.320.jpg

Dinosaurily yours, Chubbs

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/peeing-man.gif Multi Channel

Begins to wave his arms wildly "Por qué no sirve para nada hacer pis en el aire de dos canales ninny constreñido, como te atreves a la falta de respeto multicanal
de audio de esta manera. Que tus oídos a su vez hacia el exterior".

Now see what you have done, you made me go all Ricky Ricardo on you:ciappa:

[poppachubby]

Admit it Terrence, you wish you had done it first!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Admit it Terrence, you wish you had done it first!

Yeah, all over that distorted lacquer infested round thingamajig that sound like rice crispies. LOL

I gave you a greenie anyway.....it made me laugh!

[bobsticks]

Have you forgotten my Return to Forever thread? Perhaps you missed it...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=34335

Just stirring the pot...ty. BTW, I picked up this today. Near mint on euphoric, coloured and archaic vinyl. Marcus Miller plays bass on the whole thing. :2:

http://www.media.wmg-is.com/media/portal/media/cms/images/rhino/cvrs/075992365024.320.jpg

Dinosaurily yours, Chubbs

Nah, I don't remember that little gem...it musta been while I was on the lam...

Nice review though and nice pics and acquisition...

[Feanor]

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/peeing-man.gif Multi Channel
:prrr:

[ForeverAutumn]

Hey Poppa...when did you become a Mod?

[Feanor]

I've mentioned how very impressed I am with this recording but I need to emphasis that I would rather listen to this performance on my HT system than to the same on my relatively stereo system despite the former`s undoubtedly lower technical audio quality. You can check out both of my systems in my signature, below.

To speak more generally: for this type of music, i.e. large scale orchestral or choral music, I would be willing to sacrifice the "nth" degree of resolution and euphony for the magnificently realistic ambience of multichannel -- provided, of course, I have a recording of this quality.

I but I won't go so far as to say that it would be a good strategy to put the same buck in to a M/C system instead of a stereo system solely for listening to music. The reason obviously is that there aren't -- as yet -- enough great M/C recordings to justfy the trade off.

[poppachubby]

I totally agree with you Bill. My HT system has great speakers, but lacks in source and realistically, power. I still prefer it with a good 5.1 disc over 2.0 PCM. It really depends on the recording however.

I have only encountered 2 or 3 so far, which are better in the HT system. I have a Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and the Return to Forever which are all amazing 5.1 performances.

[poppachubby]

Hey Poppa...when did you become a Mod?

A few weeks ago. Let's face it, it's for spam removal and that's it. This site pretty much allows it's members total freedom, with a few extreme exceptions. Anyhow, I'm not interested in ruling, just wanted to help out.

[E-Stat]

Loose your doubts about the veracity of multi-channel sound ...
Are you familiar with HP's SACD sampler on Telarc?

Look here. (http://www.amazon.com/Telarc-SACD-Sampler-Absolute-Sound/dp/B000CRR3Q0)

It is a compilation of fourteen cuts from various recordings that he finds show the strength of MC. Included is a commentary that walks you through each cut. Naturally, having a personal description delivered before / while hearing each piece is a bit more convincing. :)

rw

[ForeverAutumn]

A few weeks ago. Let's face it, it's for spam removal and that's it. This site pretty much allows it's members total freedom, with a few extreme exceptions. Anyhow, I'm not interested in ruling, just wanted to help out.

Nice. I feel safer from those spammers already. :)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I've mentioned how very impressed I am with this recording but I need to emphasis that I would rather listen to this performance on my HT system than to the same on my relatively stereo system despite the former`s undoubtedly lower technical audio quality. You can check out both of my systems in my signature, below.

To speak more generally: for this type of music, i.e. large scale orchestral or choral music, I would be willing to sacrifice the "nth" degree of resolution and euphony for the magnificently realistic ambience of multichannel -- provided, of course, I have a recording of this quality.

I but I won't go so far as to say that it would be a good strategy to put the same buck in to a M/C system instead of a stereo system solely for listening to music. The reason obviously is that there aren't -- as yet -- enough great M/C recordings to justfy the trade off.

I personally don't own a two channel system any longer, I have switched out all of my rooms to multichannel - 7.1 multichannel at that. I figure that I can always listen to my stereo recordings on my multichannel systems, and because I have picked quality components, and have assembled them well, I don't feel like I am losing anything.

All speakers in my rooms are phase, frequency, and time aligned. All of the speakers are either identical, or voiced matched. I made sure the systems stay in the proper phase from the wall to the speakers. All equipment including power amplifiers are filtered and regulated thanks to Monster and Panamax. I used a laser pointer to properly aim my speakers in a variant of the ITU-775 speaker setup position(I add two side speakers at 90 degrees, and a backwall left and right speaker at 150 degrees).

As far as good multichannel recordings, there are ton's of stuff out there. You have SACD that has been around for years, and still titles are released on that format. DVD-A is dead as a door knob. Blu ray is coming out with titles slowly but steadily. I have 100 classical titles on SACD, and probably another 50 more on DXD that i have recorded myself. There are enough MC titles out there, you just have to look. I think the expense of setting up a high quality MC system is worth the investment. There is currently enough out there to play on it, and more being released in the future. The future of music is MC IMO.

[Feanor]

Are you familiar with HP's SACD sampler on Telarc?

Look here. (http://www.amazon.com/Telarc-SACD-Sampler-Absolute-Sound/dp/B000CRR3Q0)

It is a compilation of fourteen cuts from various recordings that he finds show the strength of MC. Included is a commentary that walks you through each cut. Naturally, having a personal description delivered before / while hearing each piece is a bit more convincing. :)

rw
I've added it to my wish list, 'Stat, thanks.

[Feanor]

I personally don't own a two channel system any longer, I have switched out all of my rooms to multichannel - 7.1 multichannel at that. I figure that I can always listen to my stereo recordings on my multichannel systems, and because I have picked quality components, and have assembled them well, I don't feel like I am losing anything.
...

As far as good multichannel recordings, there are ton's of stuff out there. You have SACD that has been around for years, and still titles are released on that format. DVD-A is dead as a door knob. Blu ray is coming out with titles slowly but steadily. I have 100 classical titles on SACD, and probably another 50 more on DXD that i have recorded myself. There are enough MC titles out there, you just have to look. I think the expense of setting up a high quality MC system is worth the investment. There is currently enough out there to play on it, and more being released in the future. The future of music is MC IMO.
Let me say this about that. If I were starting over from scratch I certainly go for an M/C main system. Alas, this ain't my situation, and being contrainted for cash, (as I ever was and will be), accordingly (1) an upgrade of my HT system to the same grade as my stereo is out of the question in the forseeable future is out of the question, and (2) I don't have nearly as many SACD or DVD-A recordings as I wish I had. The second aspect further reduces my incentive, nevertheless I very seriously considering upgrading the OPPO BD-80 (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-80/blu-ray-BDP-80-Features.aspx) that supports these formats.

After a careful read of the BD-80 manual I note that this model supports SACD coverted to hi rez PCM output via HDMI which is what I would need to have with the Onkyo receive I've got. Were it not for my unfortunate failure of my earler Oppo 980H, I would have gone for the BD-80 in the first place.

[3LB]

Feanor,
I am willing to bet you will get nothing but crickets from this posting in this part of the forum. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
-_-_-_-_-

not a whole lotta action here on the weekend, and scarce little during the week really. not a whole lot of multi-channel discussion either, though one may or may not assume the number of channels when discussing music...I know I rarely ask, if ever, whether the music anyone is posting about is in stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 10.2, etc, etc. I'm not anti-multichannel, just not the kinda info I seek here.
I will take Feanor's word for it, I'll bet its stellar. Chubbs posted about an RTF blueray. Porcupine Tree's m/c releases get raves here and I read that Steve Wilson's work on King Crimson m/c reissues are great as well. M/C does get some ink here from time to time. Issues of sound quality and mixing are moot for me if I don't like the material.
I do hope all threads here grow fat and phat with love for the music, but its also my experience here that m/c threads turn into posts about gear- I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

[E-Stat]

I'll bet its stellar.
It can be stellar in the limited arena where its true value can be demonstrated - a recording performed in a concert hall where the actual room acoustics can be captured. Think about that for a moment. We're pretty much talking classical and other acoustic venues only. You can immediately rule out any typical studio recording. Albums like Dark Side of the Moon are merely remixes with simulations of what the engineer thinks the acoustics might have been had they actually existed. The typically close-miked multi-tracks are re-shuffled with new concepts of artificial ambience. You certainly don't want to return to the bogus Quadraphonic days where musicians were mixed to sound like some were performing in the rear of the room when that rarely, if ever reflects reality. Live concerts found on Blu Ray like the Madonna Sticky and Sweet Tour in Argentina I have do give you a "true concert experience" where the musicians remain in front of you, but in rock and pop parlance that simply means you get the addition of crowd noise - if that's your thing.

My passion, too is with the music.

rw

[Mr MidFi]

Porcupine Tree's m/c releases get raves here and I read that Steve Wilson's work on King Crimson m/c reissues are great as well. M/C does get some ink here from time to time.

As I've mentioned before, Wilson's solo disc got a big shrug from me when it came out last year. But then I played it in 5.1, and suddenly it made more sense. It brought out the creepy/pensive ambiance he was going for.

Still haven't heard the KC remasters, but I've heard that Red is a pretty good job.

[Woochifer]

I also have that Blu-ray title. Excellent documentary and performance. The sound quality is very high caliber, though I can't go too much into it because on my non-HDMI receiver, I'm merely listening to it in 640k Dolby Digital and not lossless TrueHD (though it's much superior to the 448k and 384k DD used in DVDs).

I have much more of a you-are-there impression from the SFS' Mahler SACDs, but that's partly because I regularly attend performances at Davies Symphony Hall and am familiar with the acoustics of that room. Those recordings truly nail what the front of the Davies Hall sounds like, for better or worse.

The SF Symphony also has their documentaries and performances of Berlioz and Ives available on Blu-ray. I plan on purchasing the Ives disc next because the SF Symphony is at its best with mid-20th century composers like Ives and Copland.

I hope that SF Symphony goes back and re-releases some of their previous titles on Blu-ray. Their documentaries of Copland, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, and Mahler have already come out on DVD, but not on Blu-ray.