Tube amp to hybrid switch

[stunaramore]

I own a Prima Luna Prologue 2 integrated which has wonderful sound that I love. But I also have very inefficient speakers (84 db). The Prima Luna sounds great through my speakers, but I could really use more power to handle them better. I don't want to lose the sound quality I have now, but I am thinking of changing to a hybrid amp with at least 100 watts of amp power to go with a tube pre-amp section. Does anyone out there have experience in changing between a pure tube integrated and a hybrid? Have you clearly noticed any difference in sound quality, sound stage, imagery, etc. I would appreciate any thoughful answers.

[Geoffcin]

Are your speakers bi-wirable?

[RGA]

If you really like the sound you have but you need more power I would try and see what Prima Luna has up the line (if they have any other more powerful amps). I just reviewed a set of monoblock Hybrid power amps. If your Prima Luna can operate as a preamp then you might be in luck because then you can add power. Or perhaps get a Prima Luna preamp via trade.

Anyway, the Shengya Power amps are terrific in terms of sound and power and has tremendous build quality - they make Bryston power amps seem like toys and cost a lot less. Hybrids have just as much chance of sounding like the worst of both worlds and IMO they often do. The PM 150 were quite nice on my set-up and will very likely drive virtually any speaker. 300 watts (4ohm)

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=752 Apparently on their website they have a special deal on pricing and include the matching preamp. I have not heard it but some other reviewers reviewed the bigger brother preamp and really loved it. $2400 for two 40lb beastly mono block amps and a tube preamp.

You can see a better real world picture of them on the floor here http://grantfidelity.com/site/SSI+2010+show+report_Grant+Fidelity

[blackraven]

Check out the Van Alstine Hyrid FET Valve amp. The 550 puts out over 500wpc at 4ohms and the 350 over 250wpc. They have a great tube sound. You can get the double die option for much higher current and dynamics. I own their Hybrid preamp and hybrid DAC. Give Frank Van Alstine a call, he always answers his phone and loves to talk shop. He will steer you in the right direction. All gear is custom made to order with a 30 day trial, money back guarentee. The FET valve amps are quiet, dynamic with great imaging and transparency. They will drive 2 ohm loads with ease.

www.avahifi.com

Check out this forum for user reviews and comments www.audiocircle.com

[tube fan]

Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)

[blackraven]

Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)


The Van Alstine Hybrid amps are as tubey as they get. Even his solid state amps have a tube sound.

[Geoffcin]

Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)

Actually the word "fidelity" means accuracy, or the ability to reproduce something accurately. In that respect tubed amps, however pleasing to listen to, rarely have the fidelity of their solid state brothers.

[Mr Peabody]

Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.

Geoffcin, tubes bring a different type of fidelity. They may not have the control of the best solid state amps but solid state amps rarely come close to the macro and micro dynamics of tubes. I haven't heard a tube amp yet to rival the transient response of Krell, on the other hand I've yet to hear a solid state amp give the natural detail instruments should have, I call it tonal richness or shadings. This is wildly general as well since both tube and solid state vary a great deal in their ability to perform in their respective technologies.

My main system is all tube except my source. In the near future I do have a solid state power amp coming I will put into the system to see how it does. I'm sure it won't end up replacing my CJ monoblocks but it will be an interesting experiment.

[Geoffcin]

Geoffcin, tubes bring a different type of fidelity. They may not have the control of the best solid state amps but solid state amps rarely come close to the macro and micro dynamics of tubes. I haven't heard a tube amp yet to rival the transient response of Krell, on the other hand I've yet to hear a solid state amp give the natural detail instruments should have, I call it tonal richness or shadings. This is wildly general as well since both tube and solid state vary a great deal in their ability to perform in their respective technologies.


Please don't take my meaning to be that I disrespect tubed components in any way, but technically there can only be one type of fidelity, and that means; "To reproduce the original signal as close to exactly as possible." As far as I know there's no tube amp that can come close to a Halcro or Krell in that regard. That doesn't mean that they would sound "better" to anyone at all, just that they have higher fidelity in the true sense of the word.

[Hyfi]

For years I was running tube pre and ss amp. Now I have a better tube pre and a hybrid amp, tube in-ss out. The midrange and detail is killer with this setup and the right speakers. Swapping the Stratos back in clearly shows it's weakness to deliver in the mids and highs as compared to the Counterpoint with all other components the same.

I have learned to forgive the lack of deep bass for the improved midrange and blending in a sub took care of the lacking deep end with my Clearfields not needed with the Danes.

[frenchmon]

For years I was running tube pre and ss amp. Now I have a better tube pre and a hybrid amp, tube in-ss out. The midrange and detail is killer with this setup and the right speakers. Swapping the Stratos back in clearly shows it's weakness to deliver in the mids and highs as compared to the Counterpoint with all other components the same.

I have learned to forgive the lack of deep bass for the improved midrange and blending in a sub took care of the lacking deep end with my Clearfields not needed with the Danes.

I've been thinking of adding a tube preamp to my Rotel amp. Are you suggesting this outfit would not serve me as well as a hybrid amp would in your opinion?

[Hyfi]

I've been thinking of adding a tube preamp to my Rotel amp. Are you suggesting this outfit would not serve me as well as a hybrid amp would in your opinion?

No no, tube pre with ss amp usually sounds a bit better than ss pre ss amp setup but then again it will depend on pre. With your Rotel amp I would say you would get good results with a decent tubed pre.

[frenchmon]

No no, tube pre with ss amp usually sounds a bit better than ss pre ss amp setup but then again it will depend on pre. With your Rotel amp I would say you would get good results with a decent tubed pre.

Thanks. I have in mind a Conrad Johnson or a Audio Reseach preamp. I really like the Audio Research LS 15. From my listening experience to the both, it seems as if the CJ pre would offer more tube warmth and tonal sweetness with a very slight roll of in treble while the Audio Research would offer a more lively tonal sweetness and no roll off that I could hear and has a velvety sophistication, such as with cymbals that seem to have a feathery sound to them.

I have also been doing a lots of reading about the Odyssey Candela tubed preamp. I find a lots of mixed reviews concerning its performance. Because I trust most members here in their opinions, can you give me any understanding about this preamp or any Odyssey amp or preamp, seeing you are an owner? Thanks in advance.

[Hyfi]

I have a 10 y/o standard Stratos amp with upgraded caps. It is a great SS amp with lots of low end. Being a bass nut, I never wanted much more until I got the Counterpoint. At first I thought the CP was flawed and totally lacked deep bass. It does lack real deep bass but in return I got some of the best Mids and highs ever to be in my room.

My pre right now is a VAC Cla 1 MkII dual mono all tube. My previous one was a Sound Valves 101i which replaced my Hafler 945. Both tube pres were a better match for sound than the Hafler Stratos setup.

I still swap my Stratos in and out with my two pairs of speakers and enjoy the sound from both.

You won't be disappointed with either the CJ or AR. I cannot comment about the Odssey Pre.

look here

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=10.0

[blackraven]

Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.

.


Mr. P, Frank VA strives to make his equipment as least solid state sounding as possible. His newer solid state gear does just that and his Hybrid tube gear takes it to another level. You would be hard pressed to tell that his hybrid amps are not fully tubed. I'm not stating that his gear is the best, but for the money, it is a real bargain if you can put up with that 1970's look and lack of bling. You would have to pay $1k-$3K more to find something comparable. And you won't be getting the kind of customer service and potential upgradability his equipment usually offers.

I wish you guys could hear my system with my hybrid tube preamp and hybrid dac paired with my SS parasound amp. With tube rolling I can change the sound and depth of the music from SS to tube sounding depending upon which tubes I use.

[devuonoste]

Blackraven, it's nice to see you're so happy with your system. It's nice to see someone who is really happy with their gear. I'll have to try some VA gear sometime.

Stunaramore, I have gone from a tube integrated and I'm going to a tube pre and tube hybrid. I have auditioned these and the improvement in sound quality is amazing but that's because of two things 1. The amps are more expensive than what I'm replacing and 2. the builder of the amps is very knowlegeable and builds amps that have amazing sound and build quality.
I guess it depends on how much you want to spend and the gear you are comparing. I had purchased an integrated amp from Arte Forma that was modelled after ARC gear and it sounded pretty nice. I notice an issue with excessive humming noise coming from my speakers and from one of the transformers so I had to get it checked out and I was referred to a shop in Vancouver, BC Canada called Space Tech Lab. The gentleman told me what the problems were and I decided to send the amp back to the company I bought from to get a refund because I did not want to deal with the back and forth between Canada and US border crossings and shipping of an amp that has been wired point to point, as some of the issues were related to shipping. At any rate, the Space Tech Lab shop owner spent about 2 or 3 hours with me comparing his amps with the Arte Forma and then he compared different versions of his own amps, pure tube, integrateds and hybrids. All these comparisons were as a result of my requests and he never pushed his gear on me. Well, I couldn't believe the difference in sound between all of the gear while using just one set of speakers. Obviously his more expensive offerings sounded the best but even his cheaper gear sounded better than the Arte Forma. Some of the improvements in sound quality were a huge increase in air, instrument separation and imaging was improved, clarity and detail were increased and the overall tonal accuracy and midrange sweetness/richness was improved.
I decided to purchase a tube pre-amp from him and I will be buying a tube hybrid from him, as my speakers have multiple drivers and require the bass control of an SS or hybrid. The sound quality of his hybrid amps is certainly amazing and they sound as if they are pure tube amps.

My point is that you can find a hybrid amp that will have great sound quality and if you have the opportunity you can look at the Space Tech Lab site and see what he has to offer. His equipment is all hand built and the sound quality of all of his gear is great. He offers amps,etc. that have very affordable prices to some that are fairly expensive. Also, some of his gear offers an endless number of tube rolling options as well as upgrade options. Also, he offers quite a few different types of gear and a number of different versions of the different types of gear. The aesthetic quality of his gear varies quite a bit too, as some of his items don't appeal to me at all and there's some that I find look really nice. I know looks are not that important but some find value in aesthetics and he offers a huge variety of different looking pieces. The only thing that is not the greatest is that his trial period/return policy is not very good, but I am buying from him because I auditioned the amps and compared them to a fairly nice tube integrated and his gear will provide me with a huge improvement in sound quality. I will be picking up the tube pre this weekend. I won't be able to pick up the hybrid for a few months, as I decided to go for some of his pricier items and I have to save up to buy the hybrid.

Please note that I'm not trying to say that Arte Forma or ARC products are not good, as I know they build good products but it's a testament to how good the Space Tech Lab gear is.

Good luck with you search for a suitable amp.

If you want to take a look the website is:http://www.space-tech-lab.com/

Albert is an amazing fellow, as he is the most knowledgeable audio person I've ever talked to and he is also very nice and will spend as much time heping you as you need. He can also recommend the best gear for you based on your current setup, music preferences, etc.

[tube fan]

Actually the word "fidelity" means accuracy, or the ability to reproduce something accurately. In that respect tubed amps, however pleasing to listen to, rarely have the fidelity of their solid state brothers.
Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.

[Feanor]

Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.
Oh, dear. Let's not spin this tube vs. s/s arguments yet again. :rolleyes:

Many long term listens will agree that ultimate sound comes from a quality tube amp; about about as many are very happy with fine solid state equipment. (Personally I use a tube pre with solid state amps.)

[frenchmon]

..... tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.

Oh brother.

[tube fan]

Oh, dear. Let's not spin this tube vs. s/s arguments yet again. :rolleyes:

Many long term listens will agree that ultimate sound comes from a quality tube amp; about about as many are very happy with fine solid state equipment. (Personally I use a tube pre with solid state amps.)

The demise of tubes (and analogue) was predicted long ago. CDs are going to be dead long before records die. Ditto for tubes. I'm going to the California Audio Show June 30, 31, Aug 1, and I bet tubes will be featured in the best sounding rooms.

[Feanor]

The demise of tubes (and analogue) was predicted long ago. CDs are going to be dead long before records die. Ditto for tubes. I'm going to the California Audio Show June 30, 31, Aug 1, and I bet tubes will be featured in the best sounding rooms.
Did I predict the demise of tubes? Or were you speaking of people in general?

Nobody around here is predicting the end of tubes -- or vinyl. Check out recent posts by our member, RGA, who entirely argees with you on the virtues of tube equipment.

[Geoffcin]

Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.

Your confusing attractivness with fidelity. However much you might LIKE the sound of tubes, or tubed gear, the fact is that what your listening to and are so enamored with, is a degradation of the original signal. This is NOT fidelity in the true sense of the word, however much enjoyable it may sound.

[Feanor]

Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.
....
I've heard that "presence" that you speak of. It's nice. However my theory is that it is an artifact of fubes' higher 2nd order distortion -- only a theory of course. :22:

[tube fan]

Your confusing attractivness with fidelity. However much you might LIKE the sound of tubes, or tubed gear, the fact is that what your listening to and are so enamored with, is a degradation of the original signal. This is NOT fidelity in the true sense of the word, however much enjoyable it may sound.
YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.

[Geoffcin]

YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.

And you are just confused. Fidelity is a word with a standard meaning. It's not something that you "feel" it is. I suggest you go look it up.

[Hyfi]

And you are just confused. Fidelity is a word with a standard meaning. It's not something that you "feel" it is. I suggest you go look it up.

Definition of Fidelity on the Web:

* accuracy with which an electronic system reproduces the sound or image of its input signal
* the quality of being faithful

[Geoffcin]

Definition of Fidelity on the Web:

* accuracy with which an electronic system reproduces the sound or image of its input signal
* the quality of being faithful

Exactly! In this case reproduction is measurable against it's input signal.

As to the second meaning, that would be between you and your sig other. Although there are some here to which their tube gear would qualify as their sig other.

[RGA]

YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.

If it's got feedback - it's not accurate - If it were it would not need to be "corrected". The system that plays the signal directly through without error correction (to corrrect errors it creates itself) is not accurate - no matter how the measurements are manipulated to make it look good. You won't however convince people of it so it's really no use. The ears are the arbiters and if you have perfect listening pitch as I do then it's tiresome to listen to the arguments when the ear states the bleeding obvious. Most audiophiles and most of the top manufacturers are tube guys. Tube amps really ONLY sell to audiophiles - audiophiles tend to be the guys with the best hearing and take it the most seriously. CES 2010 I'd say at least 80% possibly 90% of all the rooms used either all Tubes or Tube hybrids. Even the speaker makers who you would think would not run tubes like Dynaudio used Tubes. As Martin Colloms noted - even the SS amp makers have been progressing over the years to less and less feedback. And the makers that make both SS and tube - Tube tends to be their flagship products. McIntosh, ARC, MF(Nuvista) etc.

That said SS has a certain kind of sound and if you like it buy it. At the end of the day as Steven Rochlin says - do what you need to do to enjoythemusic. The arguments over accuracy and measurements are all just forum debate fodder. And like most debates, Tube/SS, Vinyl/CD, standmount/floorstander, electrostat/horn, HE/LE, PP/SE etc people rarely change their views so Steven probably has it right - enjoythemusic should be the first concern and worrying whether your preference is more accurate is rather pointless.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think any one is in disagreement as to what fidelity means, the difference is what constitutes the fidelity. I disagree with the assumption tubes have to be inaccurate. I find although these days both camps, tubes and solid state, are doing pretty well at approaching each other's sound each still bring a different aspect of the music to life. Tube gear still has fidelity. Just because one may think solid state does a better job doesn't mean you can exclude every other technology from having fidelity. What about the various digital amps, do they not have fidelity? Or, maybe they are because technically they're still solid state. If we get to splitting hairs then we have to admit there is no fidelity at all because no solid state or tube gear will render a perfect, faithful reproduction of the original recording, let alone the original performance. Some may come closer than others or do a better job in one area or another but until you can walk in one room with the hi fi set up and another with the band and can't tell any difference we have to either say there is no fidelity or agree there are degrees and varied aspects of fidelity.

[frenchmon]

YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.

I like tubes just like the next man likes tubes. But frankly I am tired of hearing the same old lies that SS can not have fidelity, accurate tonal saturation, that SS music is not beautiful or no sweet beauty. Its a bunch of lies. Like SS cant capture the thrill of live music. Its a pack of lies. As I type this I am now listening to the 1986 Playboy Jazz Festival on vinyl. Side C has Benny Golson, Art Farmer and Nancy Wilson and my Rotel has captured all the thrill of this live performance. BUt there is not coloration from a tube what so ever. And accuracy....my ears don't hear any inaccuracy from the speakers....I don't care what you've read that says other wise.....you guy who spout this stuff are something else.

[frenchmon]

Exactly! In this case reproduction is measurable against it's input signal.

Exactly!


As to the second meaning, that would be between you and your sig other. Although there are some here to which their tube gear would qualify as their sig other.

True...and thats why they say infidelity.

[Geoffcin]

I don't think any one is in disagreement as to what fidelity means, the difference is what constitutes the fidelity. I disagree with the assumption tubes have to be inaccurate. I find although these days both camps, tubes and solid state, are doing pretty well at approaching each other's sound each still bring a different aspect of the music to life. Tube gear still has fidelity. Just because one may think solid state does a better job doesn't mean you can exclude every other technology from having fidelity. What about the various digital amps, do they not have fidelity? Or, maybe they are because technically they're still solid state. If we get to splitting hairs then we have to admit there is no fidelity at all because no solid state or tube gear will render a perfect, faithful reproduction of the original recording, let alone the original performance. Some may come closer than others or do a better job in one area or another but until you can walk in one room with the hi fi set up and another with the band and can't tell any difference we have to either say there is no fidelity or agree there are degrees and varied aspects of fidelity.

I think what's really going on is that there's an idea that because something sounds/looks beautiful it must be accurate. It's simply not the case. For instance; I happen to like impressionist art. That kind of art has poor fidelity, but it's exceptionally beautiful, at least to my eye. The same goes for audio. Most of what makes tubed/analog gear so attractive sounding is NOT how accurate it is, but how good it's inaccuracy sounds to the ear. Fidelity as a word should not be misconstrued to mean beautiful or attractive in this case.

FWIW; I've always enjoyed tubed gear (I own several pieces) going all the way back to days when it was not in the rare "audiophile only" category. It was fun to get RGA babbling again though!

[RGA]

The real issue is that NOTHING is perfectly accurate and if you are going to buy something that is innaccurate you may as well by the one that "sounds the best." SS and SET makers both claim and argue for Accuracy but in the end both are not perfectly accurate. It is either 100% or accurate or it isn't. The word Accurate is absolute. And without a frame of reference then notions of more or less accurate are problematic.

So it comes down to accepting a preference. Most of the high end industry is in the tube vinyl camp - the best of the best of the best ears are in this camp. IMO they're correct. And the bonus is that consumers get to save a pile of cash. Modelstly priced Rogue audio and Mystere made speakers like Martin Logan, Dynaudio, and Wilson Audio speakers sound better by a mile than I have heard them sound with top of the line Krell, MF, Bryston, Mark Levinson. Tube amps for under $5 grand versus SS in the $50 grand plus range. What was interesting is that ML, Dynaudio, Wilson ran their gear with 30-50 watt tubes. It made some speakers that usually sound grossly overrated sound clearer, cleaner, more open, faster, dynamics, three dimensional and forced me to re-evaluate their speakers.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you are misrepresenting things again, just a bit. The ONLY reason Dynaudio was using a tube amp is because they brought Octave Audio under their umbrella. If they really thought tubes were better the Dynaudio mega dollar amps would have been tube. Instead the are massive solid state with ridiculous capacitance reserves, their amp will play for hours after being unplugged from the wall.

We may not know the original performance but one can reasonably ascertain if a cymbal is struck it's not "warm", you will hear metal being struck, if an amp some how holds back so your ears aren't offended then it's not accurate. Maybe offended isn't the appropriate word but hopefully you get my drift. And, on the other hand if the tapping of a cymbal in a Jazz Quartet has you reaching for cotton there's a problem, we know that's supposed to be subtle. We know a cymbal unless stopped fades or shimmers out it doesn't crash then immediately stops. So I agree nothing is perfect yet but we can reasonably tell if one unit is more accurate than another, although, we can see that is highly subjective. With all that being said I've heard tube gear more capable of doing that over some solid state, say McIntosh for instance, solid state, in my opinion not very accurate at all. I'd say rather than one technology over another it's more a unit by unit thing.

[Mr Peabody]

The poor OP, he's probably, huh? all I wanted to know is.......

[Luvin Da Blues]

The real issue is that NOTHING is perfectly accurate and if you are going to buy something that is innaccurate you may as well by the one that "sounds the best." SS and SET makers both claim and argue for Accuracy but in the end both are not perfectly accurate. It is either 100% or accurate or it isn't. The word Accurate is absolute. And without a frame of reference then notions of more or less accurate are problematic.


"In the fields of engineering, industry and statistics, the accuracy of a measurement system is the degree of closeness of measurements of a quantity to its actual (true) value. " from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

[RGA]

RGA, you are misrepresenting things again, just a bit. The ONLY reason Dynaudio was using a tube amp is because they brought Octave Audio under their umbrella. If they really thought tubes were better the Dynaudio mega dollar amps would have been tube. Instead the are massive solid state with ridiculous capacitance reserves, their amp will play for hours after being unplugged from the wall.

We may not know the original performance but one can reasonably ascertain if a cymbal is struck it's not "warm", you will hear metal being struck, if an amp some how holds back so your ears aren't offended then it's not accurate. Maybe offended isn't the appropriate word but hopefully you get my drift. And, on the other hand if the tapping of a cymbal in a Jazz Quartet has you reaching for cotton there's a problem, we know that's supposed to be subtle. We know a cymbal unless stopped fades or shimmers out it doesn't crash then immediately stops. So I agree nothing is perfect yet but we can reasonably tell if one unit is more accurate than another, although, we can see that is highly subjective. With all that being said I've heard tube gear more capable of doing that over some solid state, say McIntosh for instance, solid state, in my opinion not very accurate at all. I'd say rather than one technology over another it's more a unit by unit thing.

Ahh but then you are trusting your ears - and some people can't have that. Some CD's soften the cymbal crash and some don't. Interestingly, the best SE tubes I have heard sound clearer and faster and have that "crash" along with the follow through. It's a matter of what the grear is over just the technology - because there are a bunch of mushy tube amps out there and they're probably the ones that created the reputation I presume. The mushier tube gear is liked and I suppose if you lean in a direction a little warmer is probably more "likable" than leaning unrelenting bright.

I might try and get one of the OCTAVE amps here. It's always nce to have a different take on things.

[Mr Peabody]

The local Dyn dealer has the 40 watt Octave and I can't wait to go hear it. They tell me the 40 watt rating is a joke based on how it sounds. I shall see.

[RGA]

"In the fields of engineering, industry and statistics, the accuracy of a measurement system is the degree of closeness of measurements of a quantity to its actual (true) value. " from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Yes 2+2 = 4 and 3 is more accurate than 18 billion but we all know that because we know that 2=2=4. In other words we know the degree of accuracy because we know what the answer is. In audio - we don't. We have assumptions.

We may as well be asking the question Duawlla82 + Yoda S = TilipRose.

Is juwallO more accurate than chasersW? And then apply it to a subjective response.

We can presume that a flatter frequency response is better than a non flat one (though some debate on that with some Quad guys), and lower distortion is better than high distortion, and that the left speaker should match the right speaker as close as possible, and that the speaker retain very high resolution, the ability to reproduce a tremdous dynamics envelope without overshoot, is fast, is sonically pure through a wide frequency range, Comes from the same point in space.

Loudspeaker designers often make choices to make one parameter better which often makes another parameter worse, which is why lots of companies have lots of engineers who know the math way better than I will ever know it - and yet they make completely different loudspeakers.

[tube fan]

I like tubes just like the next man likes tubes. But frankly I am tired of hearing the same old lies that SS can not have fidelity, accurate tonal saturation, that SS music is not beautiful or no sweet beauty. Its a bunch of lies. Like SS cant capture the thrill of live music. Its a pack of lies. As I type this I am now listening to the 1986 Playboy Jazz Festival on vinyl. Side C has Benny Golson, Art Farmer and Nancy Wilson and my Rotel has captured all the thrill of this live performance. BUt there is not coloration from a tube what so ever. And accuracy....my ears don't hear any inaccuracy from the speakers....I don't care what you've read that says other wise.....you guy who spout this stuff are something else.
ALL units have some type of distortion, tube and solid state. IMO, your system would sound more realistic driven solely by tubes. Try tubes in place on your solid state on the same music. BTW, be sure to use records, not CDs in any comparison. As I stated earlier, there is a reason why more high end is driven by tubes and analogue at the audio shows. They want their units to show well, and they realize that means tubes and analogue.

[Geoffcin]

ALL units have some type of distortion, tube and solid state. IMO, your system would sound more realistic driven solely by tubes. Try tubes in place on your solid state on the same music. BTW, be sure to use records, not CDs in any comparison. As I stated earlier, there is a reason why more high end is driven by tubes and analogue at the audio shows. They want their units to show well, and they realize that means tubes and analogue.

Sure, be sure to use a source with a guaranteed several percent of distortion to prove that your higher distortion amp sounds better. How much sense does that make?

[tube fan]

Sure, be sure to use a source with a guaranteed several percent of distortion to prove that your higher distortion amp sounds better. How much sense does that make?
You just don't get it, and I suspect that you never will. Stick with solid state/and digital. I'll stick with tubes and analogue BECAUSE they are both more accurate (in pitch, dynamics, and tonal saturation) and more beautiful. I'm loking forward to hearing the Aesthetics IO phono/preamp, Audio Note speakers and amplification, King's Audio Magico, and Teresonic at the show. I am especially interested in the Aesthetics IO phono/preamp, because you get a phono amp that is also a preamp for a "bargan" price of around $12,000. I have not heard anything significantly better than my Audio Research SP 8 and Counterpoint SA-2 combination in decades, but I hope the Aesthetics phono preamp is a big step up in accuracy.

[frenchmon]

The local Dyn dealer has the 40 watt Octave and I can't wait to go hear it. They tell me the 40 watt rating is a joke based on how it sounds. I shall see.

Hey MrP its 3am in the morning and you are still online? Im about to leave for work. I can be at your house about 1pm and we can go and take a listen to the Octave tube amp if you want.

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchie and I did indeed see the Octave Audio 40 watt integrated today. It drove a set of Dynaudio Confidence One's and used a T+A CDP. I was very impressed by this unit. It's one of those tube products that bridges the gap between tubes and solid state, this amp had the best of both worlds. The V40 had extended highs, the sound was quick, detailed and had a serious bottom end. You know this amp is serious to have the capability of driving C1's. The presentation was spectacular, it delivered all aspects of dynamics. They have an external power supply that is said to step up performance even more, it wasn't hooked up at the time. One version is $1200.00 and another is $3500.00. That's just the power supply, the amp alone is $5k USD. The shop had KT-88's in, the sales rep said he likes the KT88's over EL34's that were originally in it.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/octave/octave.html

[frenchmon]

All I can say is wow. The Octave had the mid range and upper detail of unpeccable sound engineering without being overly colored or warm and the bass slam of a SS amp. On a scale of tube sweetness or coloration I would say the tube sweetness was about 4 on a scale of..very colored at 10 and the least color or sweetness of tubes at 1 and the bottom end had the slam, pace and deep bass of a solid state power amp. I've made my impression made to Mr.P that it was very close to the sound of those very big mono block Reference amps Marantz makes that cost $15,000 a pair. The Octave was warm but not overly warm. Cymbals and Benny Greens piano had a very nice texture and Christian Mcbrides bass was slamming like...it was like we where listening to a nice big warm solid state amp but you would look up and it was tubes. We then switched over to a T+A SS amp and preamp and all of a sudden SS sounded really grainy. The magic was gone, until we put the tunes back on the Octave....if any one has $5000 to spend on a very nice and classy looking integrated preamp thats not overly warm or overly colored with nice air go and take a listen. RGA if you can...try and do a review of that thing....and I betcha you will find synergy between the music of the Octave and your own soul ...the Octave was full of passion.

[RGA]

You don't need to tell me - The Octave joins a number of Tube amps from Grant Fidelity, Mystere, Rogue, that have nice prices and loads of power.

The issue that tubes colour the sound or can't drive loudspeakers is horse droppings.

Lower power tubes have the same power and drive IF the speaker is higher in sensitivity. It comes down to the amp power/speaker efficiency formula.

Rogue was running the Sophia II to stupid loud levels at CES. Like I said then - the loudest hardest hitting most bass most bass at high levels, cleanest crispest rooms were the ones driven by tubes. The Trenner and Freidl RA box with tube gear played louder than any room I hear at CES. The 20 watt Jinro on the AN E was right up there. The Ra Box played louder overall but a little noticeable distortion was also present at extreme levels. And I mean ear pain levels and felt like the entire room was compressing. Unbelievable.

All the power and speed without the grainy two dimensional SS grain that enters into it.

[frenchmon]

Ok RGA....I've asked you about this in the past but I never kept up with the thread and now its lost and I cant find your answer. I was once considering Rogue preamps but I read many reviews that said they where noticeably noisy so that kinda turned me away... What your take on Rogue?

[Mr Peabody]

Having heard the Octave V40 it would be interesting to see what RGA wrote about it, if his thoughts were along the same as ours.

[Geoffcin]

Having heard the Octave V40 it would be interesting to see what RGA wrote about it, if his thoughts were along the same as ours.

A PP Ultralinear eh? Now who do I know who has one of those?

[RGA]

Ok RGA....I've asked you about this in the past but I never kept up with the thread and now its lost and I cant find your answer. I was once considering Rogue preamps but I read many reviews that said they where noticeably noisy so that kinda turned me away... What your take on Rogue?

I heard no noise issue with the Rogue gear - so if they had a problem they fixed it or perhaps they had a new preamp. They were running the Herra II preamp ~$8,000

[poppachubby]

All I can say is wow. The Octave had the mid range and upper detail of unpeccable sound engineering without being overly colored or warm and the bass slam of a SS amp. On a scale of tube sweetness or coloration I would say the tube sweetness was about 4 on a scale of..very colored at 10 and the least color or sweetness of tubes at 1 and the bottom end had the slam, pace and deep bass of a solid state power amp. I've made my impression made to Mr.P that it was very close to the sound of those very big mono block Reference amps Marantz makes that cost $15,000 a pair. The Octave was warm but not overly warm. Cymbals and Benny Greens piano had a very nice texture and Christian Mcbrides bass was slamming like...it was like we where listening to a nice big warm solid state amp but you would look up and it was tubes. We then switched over to a T+A SS amp and preamp and all of a sudden SS sounded really grainy. The magic was gone, until we put the tunes back on the Octave....if any one has $5000 to spend on a very nice and classy looking integrated preamp thats not overly warm or overly colored with nice air go and take a listen. RGA if you can...try and do a review of that thing....and I betcha you will find synergy between the music of the Octave and your own soul ...the Octave was full of passion.

Oh I see you guys enjoyed hearing a 40 watt tube amp. Hmmmm, who do we know with a 40 watt tube amp?

My Golden Tube isn't as good as the Octave, not as much bass. In terms of mid and high freq, I can relate to your experience. I hear it every day.

[frenchmon]

I heard no noise issue with the Rogue gear - so if they had a problem they fixed it or perhaps they had a new preamp. They were running the Herra II preamp ~$8,000

Heres one such pro review..he gave it good marks a score of 9 out of 10, but at the end talked about the noise.

http://www.10audio.com/rogue_metis.htm

And I have also seen few other reviews...pro and consumer who have said they are noisy.

[frenchmon]

Oh I see you guys enjoyed hearing a 40 watt tube amp. Hmmmm, who do we know with a 40 watt tube amp?

My Golden Tube isn't as good as the Octave, not as much bass. In terms of mid and high freq, I can relate to your experience. I hear it every day.

Pops...I know a guy who has a tube amp thats 25 watts....you would think it was 100 watts per by the way it sounded.

On a sweetness scale of 1-10 with 1 being very very little tonal tube sweetness and 10 being very much saturated with tubed tonal sweetness, where would you rate the Golden Tube?

[poppachubby]

Pops...I know a guy who has a tube amp thats 25 watts....you would think it was 100 watts per by the way it sounded.

On a sweetness scale of 1-10 with 1 being very very little tonal tube sweetness and 10 being very much saturated with tubed tonal sweetness, where would you rate the Golden Tube?

I would put it at a 7/8, depending on the rest of the chain. The mids are ridiculously warm but the highs still maintain some crispness and shimmer. In terms of bass, it's technically weak but in reality it drops quite a bit and is always detailed. I couldn't listen to music with insufficient bass. That said, I prefer natural bass that's correctly mixed. Some SS gear drives me nuts because the bass is bloated. That's the only problem with the old Kenwood integrated I'm running right now.

Last time the SE40 was in the shop, my tech hooked it up and the amp did not start to clip until it hit 42 watts into an 8ohm load. It's a brilliant topology and excellent design. I also spent top dollar to have Auricaps and Orange Drops put in it.

They pop up on the Gon often enough, usually in excellent shape for roughly 600 - 800 depending on servicing.

I would LOVE to see you with a tube amp. IMO, your musical philosophy screams "tubes". As much as you hate when dudes say SS has no life, I hate when guys say tubes have no dynamics. To me, if you listen for that soulful aspect of music, tubes have it in spades.

I did some experimenting with my preamps lately. I am using an SS pre on the SE40 and put my Eico on an SS amp. I am really enjoying the combo. I think a tube pre is a good duirection for you. try to find a 12AX7 topology since they are plentiful and affordable.

[Mr Peabody]

Actually, Geoff, every one here except for RGA who uses tubes has ultralinear.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I was in that camp for a long time. Thought I needed the power of SS to drive my speakers because they are not the most efficient. I was also in the metal tweeter camp for about 6 years because I was told that they have detail and sparkle. I started to wonder why I lost interest in the music after an hour or so. I thought I was A.D.D. and just got tired of listening. Turns out I was tired of hearing what I was hearing. Who knew. Got to go my tubes are warming up.

[poppachubby]

I was also in the metal tweeter camp for about 6 years because I was told that they have detail and sparkle. I started to wonder why I lost interest in the music after an hour or so. I thought I was A.D.D. and just got tired of listening. Turns out I was tired of hearing what I was hearing.

Jack what kind of speakers did you have? I have a pair of Sound Dynamics 1200 SMT. They are two way...aluminum dome tweeter, 12" woofer and 12" passive rad. I absolutely love 'em and will NEVER get rid of them. In certain circles they are revered. A big part of the API history. Energy 22 owners have discovered that the SD tweeters are a perfect drop in, so now they are really sought after.

Anyhow, I have found that amplification is the dealbreaker with these. It makes the difference of fatiguing to dynamic brilliance. The crazy part? I prefer them with SS than tubes. I have a vintage Pioneer that has the sweetest sound with the 1200's.

I would agree that an escape from metal tweeters is nice too. I am speaker rich, so this isn't an issue for me. Kind of off topic...:nono:

[frenchmon]

I would put it at a 7/8, depending on the rest of the chain. The mids are ridiculously warm but the highs still maintain some crispness and shimmer. In terms of bass, it's technically weak but in reality it drops quite a bit and is always detailed. I couldn't listen to music with insufficient bass. That said, I prefer natural bass that's correctly mixed. Some SS gear drives me nuts because the bass is bloated. That's the only problem with the old Kenwood integrated I'm running right now.

Last time the SE40 was in the shop, my tech hooked it up and the amp did not start to clip until it hit 42 watts into an 8ohm load. It's a brilliant topology and excellent design. I also spent top dollar to have Auricaps and Orange Drops put in it.

They pop up on the Gon often enough, usually in excellent shape for roughly 600 - 800 depending on servicing.

I would LOVE to see you with a tube amp. IMO, your musical philosophy screams "tubes". As much as you hate when dudes say SS has no life, I hate when guys say tubes have no dynamics. To me, if you listen for that soulful aspect of music, tubes have it in spades.

I did some experimenting with my preamps lately. I am using an SS pre on the SE40 and put my Eico on an SS amp. I am really enjoying the combo. I think a tube pre is a good duirection for you. try to find a 12AX7 topology since they are plentiful and affordable.

7/8.Hummm...thats really warm in my book. It may be to the point of too much coloration for me. That Octave was only about a 4 and it was just right....hardly any coloration at all. Everything was rounded off perfectly and absolutely excellent detail and air. They where driving some Dynaudio's but I would have loved to listen to the Octave with a set of speakers not as warm as the Dynaudios. This was hi end all the way...no mid fi here. They had some Dali Lektor's but the sales man was not having any of that on his Octave....he said in so many words...not the same class which it wasn't. The Lektor's where mid fi, MrP and I did get a chance to listen to them and they are great speakers..bottom end could be a tad tighter but they where good and they where not warm...had a little better sparkle and liveliness. The Octave is better suited for the Dali Helicon M2.

Dont worry Pops...I will get me a set of tubes in due time, and no mid fi either....I got two kids whom I send to private schools and that a cheap. I've heard that Balanced Audio Technologies are super warm, but today I've been doing a little research on their product and im starting to think that's not true at all but the complete opposite.

[RGA]

Heres one such pro review..he gave it good marks a score of 9 out of 10, but at the end talked about the noise.

http://www.10audio.com/rogue_metis.htm

And I have also seen few other reviews...pro and consumer who have said they are noisy.

Well if they're noisy the one they brought to the show wasn't. Noise issues can be caused by a lot of things, cable television is a big one. I had a huge hum from it - oddly it effected all my gear EXCEPT the tube amps. RF interference, cruddy electrical - some gear is more susceptible to picking it up - preamps are the one device that will pick up noise. They may not have shielded something properly. I know Audio Note had some issues with their turntables but in England they had no problems - it was only the models that got shipped here. They simply put a plate over it and the noise is completely gone.

If the Rogue worries you though don't buy it. A show report can only illustrate so much - but I had the volume cranked and it was as clear as a bell. It was the best sound I have heard from Wilson Audio.

[RGA]

I always go back to one of the more spot on, subjective, analogies of SS versus Tubes. From a top of the Line Bryston/PMC owner (pro gear):

"All the hoary myths about SET amplification (mid-range to die for, no bass, coloured) proved untrue. The system easily generated realistic pressure levels in our 21X12 ft. room. It gave an insight into the richness of timing, rate of dynamic ebb and flow, volume, and the harmonic information on every recording that was startling. Not startling in a granular, detailed, etched way, but in a wholesome and organic way – I'll use the word holistic, if I may.

I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued.

I think that in a similar way, probably the majority of mainstream audio gear fails more or less to transfer to the listener the essential subtle information that makes the artifice of reproduced music acceptable to the brain. Perhaps because of the non-linearity of solid-state amplification, the liberal use of negative feedback, and the non-time and phase coherent nature of most speakers, the information is lost or scrambled. Without it, performances may well have those attributes so beloved of audio reviewers and salesmen like slam and transparency, but as musical events they are reduced to the value of background tunes in lifts or supermarket music. It's rather like comparing the richness of a Rembrandt to a join-the-dots picture in a puzzle magazine. They're both pictures. But that's where the similarity ends." http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Other/Audio-Note/Level-3-system/general/345133.html

I agree.

[frenchmon]

Well if they're noisy the one they brought to the show wasn't. Noise issues can be caused by a lot of things, cable television is a big one. I had a huge hum from it - oddly it effected all my gear EXCEPT the tube amps. RF interference, cruddy electrical - some gear is more susceptible to picking it up - preamps are the one device that will pick up noise. They may not have shielded something properly. I know Audio Note had some issues with their turntables but in England they had no problems - it was only the models that got shipped here. They simply put a plate over it and the noise is completely gone.

If the Rogue worries you though don't buy it. A show report can only illustrate so much - but I had the volume cranked and it was as clear as a bell. It was the best sound I have heard from Wilson Audio.


Did you read the article?

If you had no problems with noise, then I will put it back on my list....but the odd thing is he said it was noisy but still give it a 9 out of 10 points...even with the noise it got a great score.



One other thing if i may ask? Whats your opinion of BAT...Balanced Audio Technologies? I've hear they was overly warm on their tubes

[poppachubby]

frenchmon, I think the scale thing is not working. I am saying that my SE40 is certainly less tubey than MacIntosh, if that gives you a barometer. With a 7/8, I was trying to convey that it ISN'T saturated so to speak.

[Feanor]

I always go back to one of the more spot on, subjective, analogies of SS versus Tubes. From a top of the Line Bryston/PMC owner (pro gear):

"All the hoary myths about SET amplification (mid-range to die for, no bass, coloured) proved untrue. The system easily generated realistic pressure levels in our 21X12 ft. room. It gave an insight into the richness of timing, rate of dynamic ebb and flow, volume, and the harmonic information on every recording that was startling. Not startling in a granular, detailed, etched way, but in a wholesome and organic way – I'll use the word holistic, if I may.
...
No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon, I think the scale thing is not working. I am saying that my SE40 is certainly less tubey than MacIntosh, if that gives you a barometer. With a 7/8, I was trying to convey that it ISN'T saturated so to speak.

Oh ok. The Audio Research tubed preamp I listened to with a Mac tube amp was maybe a 4 on the scale...it was not saturated with coloration. But it was an older McIntosh...some say that has something to do with it....I don't know enough about them nor have I heard many Mac's to have an opinion.

[Geoffcin]

Actually, Geoff, every one here except for RGA who uses tubes has ultralinear.

Yes, I figured it was by far the most popular, certainly it's the best bang for the buck.

I have heard other topologies that I enjoy, like the Atma-Sphere OTL's. Probably the only amp that I would trade my current one in for ;

http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/m60.html

Remarkable design and execution.

Of course if you have the cash and a really big air conditioner;

http://www.atma-sphere.com/images/MA-3a.jpg

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack what kind of speakers did you have? I have a pair of Sound Dynamics 1200 SMT. They are two way...aluminum dome tweeter, 12" woofer and 12" passive rad. I absolutely love 'em and will NEVER get rid of them. In certain circles they are revered. A big part of the API history. Energy 22 owners have discovered that the SD tweeters are a perfect drop in, so now they are really sought after.

Anyhow, I have found that amplification is the dealbreaker with these. It makes the difference of fatiguing to dynamic brilliance. The crazy part? I prefer them with SS than tubes. I have a vintage Pioneer that has the sweetest sound with the 1200's.

I would agree that an escape from metal tweeters is nice too. I am speaker rich, so this isn't an issue for me. Kind of off topic...:nono:

My first serious step into HiFi was with a pair of Paradigm Monitor 9's in 2000. Wanted floorstanders and the Mon. 9's fit the bill and budget. Over the next couple years got the full HT setup and enjoyed it. Then with more musical knowledge and a bigger budget my tastes started to change. Now 10 years later, I have replaced all of my original equipment.

[RGA]

Did you read the article?

If you had no problems with noise, then I will put it back on my list....but the odd thing is he said it was noisy but still give it a 9 out of 10 points...even with the noise it got a great score.

One other thing if i may ask? Whats your opinion of BAT...Balanced Audio Technologies? I've hear they was overly warm on their tubes

He reviewed the metis - I have not heard that one. The one I heard was the Herra II - I can't tell from one review if this is a problem. A lot of things can account for noise. A bad tube, cap, etc.

I have not been a big fan of BAT - But I have not tried them with speakers I particularly love either so it's not really a knock on them so much as what they have been partnered with. Also the dealer that carries them is not near me so it's been several years since listening to them.

[Geoffcin]

No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.

BWWWAHHH!!!

No, please don't take away my bullsh!t buzzwords. How am I ever going to convey how supercalifragilistic the sound makes me feel deep inside.

[Mr Peabody]

Come on now, sometimes a BS word is necessary, it's very difficult to put sound into a description. As an example I remember discussing the Adcom gfa-5500 and Feanor used the word "earthy" to describe the sound. Earthy sounds pretty strange to describe sound but if you've heard the amp "earthy" really hit the nail on the head as the amp was dark with a unique signature that earthy came as close to anything I've heard to describe it.

[poppachubby]

No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.

Jesus Bill, relax would ya?!? If he used it to describe a digital product, would that have been ok? :rolleyes5:

[Geoffcin]

Come on now, sometimes a BS word is necessary, it's very difficult to put sound into a description. As an example I remember discussing the Adcom gfa-5500 and Feanor used the word "earthy" to describe the sound. Earthy sounds pretty strange to describe sound but if you've heard the amp "earthy" really hit the nail on the head as the amp was dark with a unique signature that earthy came as close to anything I've heard to describe it.

Here's the problem; "Earthy" may mean something totally different to different people. From the smell of a newly planted field, to the scent of a dirt floored cellar. Trying to stick to words that have as close to standard meanings in the context that they are used is the hallmark of good reviewing. These words like "holistic" and "earthy are so vague that you might as well be casting a horoscope rather than doing a review. Good reviewers ban words like that from their reviews.

So, I'll have my SS glace' with a dollop of tube caramel please!

[jonathanpp]

Dear: Friends

Sorry to my limited english, but to my years of in search of best sounding amps, there is none that I feel can represent the best in terms of everything.

but, to me, if you'd want a full tube amp, that would be more of mid fluidity, more openess, and sweeter top end. depending on how you want your music to be..

but hybrid academy such as the kw musical fidelity (kilowatt series) will also be great in terms of dinamic swings and liveliness.

Of course one can not have all the benefits, but if you are looking for a stronger musical repro..go for the hybrid.. friend..

Thanks..
Jonathan
Singapore

[RGA]

Here's the problem; "Earthy" may mean something totally different to different people. From the smell of a newly planted field, to the scent of a dirt floored cellar. Trying to stick to words that have as close to standard meanings in the context that they are used is the hallmark of good reviewing. These words like "holistic" and "earthy are so vague that you might as well be casting a horoscope rather than doing a review. Good reviewers ban words like that from their reviews.

So, I'll have my SS glace' with a dollop of tube caramel please!

Yes but if you bothered to read the entire review you would get a good sense of the way he felt about both stereos. To focus on one word is the same as the morons who find one mistake in one minor point in a 5000 point theory and then discount the entire thing because they don't happen to like the stance taken as it doesn't fit with their own "lack of experience" but assumptions. Most people who get on that maker do so because if it is in fact true that they are "right" then that means a big chunk of their long time belief systems will crack. A lot of people who spend tens of thousands of dollars don't want to believe they threw their money away on comparative rubbish. That is why I give Kevin Credit. His belief was complete opposite - he trusted the measurements, he bought all the supposed "right" gear and yet he kept an open mind. Had some beat up less expensive gear delivered and it destroyed not only his mid-fi equipment masquerading as hi-fi but shattered all that he knew and accepted as the truth. Same gear did it to me.

He used the word Holistic - relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts

I have no problem with that term in audio. He is discussing Audio Note which is probably the only company in the industry (high end industry) that Truly looks at the "whole" (holistic) stereo system as one voice. Comparatively everyone else is building Frankenstein monsters that usually sound like Frankenstein looks. The word fits the company.

Far too many stereo systems sound like they're dissecting the album (when in reality it is usually the stereo sounding discombobulated into isolated parts. A holistic system sounds complete, of a piece, real whole. Nothing at all wrong with that term. In fact if one complains about that terms it's more than likely they have never heard a system that sounds "real," "whole," and "complete." The alternate is isolated separate out of step systems. Sounds like SS to me.

[theaudiohobby]

I have no problem with that term in audio. He is discussing Audio Note which is probably the only company in the industry (high end industry) that Truly looks at the "whole" (holistic) stereo system as one voice. Comparatively everyone else is building Frankenstein monsters that usually sound like Frankenstein looks. The word fits the company. :rolleyes: Please do not to go down that route again....thank you

[RGA]

:rolleyes: Please do not to go down that route again....thank you

Digging up posts from 12 days ago - who is going down that route? Nice.



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[tube fan]

Playing the same records (yes, that means vinyl), on my system after going to the California Audio Show, I am surprised how much more realistic my system is compared to even the $400,000 systems at the show. For me, this means that the music simply seems to be IN my room.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Playing the same records (yes, that means vinyl), on my system after going to the California Audio Show, I am surprised how much more realistic my system is compared to even the $400,000 systems at the show. For me, this means that the music simply seems to be IN my room.

You are a very lucky man. Most people go to audio shows and hear gear that sounds much better than they have in there own system. But you get what you can afford and upgrade when you can. Just getting into tubes myself, I feel I have opened up a whole new sound that I had not previously heard.

Oh and tube fan, I wanted to tell you that when you mentioned the Albinoni LP that you had with you at the California show. I had never heard of it before and with your discription, I thought it was worth checking out. A couple days later I get a E-Mail ad from Elusive Disc and there is your LP second one down in the ad. Solid recommendation. Thanks