Initial Impressions of Music Hall MMF 5.1

[Jack in Wilmington]

Picked up my new 5.1 turntable on Saturday. Stephen at "Quest For Sound" had everything waiting for me when I got there. Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off. Now to the business at hand.

While he's writing up the sale, I am thumbing through his LPs and I figure a nice new record for the nice new table would be only fitting. Spotting a copy of Traffic's " John Barleycorn, I add that to the till. Table and vinyl in hand, we exchange our goodbyes and I'm off.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/DSC00222.JPG

Setup is pretty basic and very similar to my MMF 2.1, so things go smoothly. I'm pretty methodical and have a tendency to read everything twice. About an hour and a half later, I'm ready to spin vinyl. Load the afore mentioned Traffic LP on the platter, spin the record clamp down ( new experience for me ) and turn the motor on. Let it run for a couple minutes while I check the manual again, oh it's fun being anal. Here we go.

Nice detail in the saxaphone and flute work is the first thing that I notice. Since this is a new LP, I can't compare it to the 2.1 table. But I do have this on CD and there is a marked difference. The vinyl sort of pulls you into the music and you become one with the sound.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/DSC00212.JPG

Then I put on my copy of Dvorak's "Carnival Overture" and "Othello Overture". I pull out my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones for this. The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope. Next up is my superb copy of Steely Dan's "Aja". The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away. Now I'm hearing the background vocals clearly. Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound. But if this is what I can expect from my future listening sessions, my vinyl is going to get some more rotations.
Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side. Enjoy your vinyl.

[jrhymeammo]

Analog fever is blooming here at AR.com!!!!!!!! I love it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack

[poppachubby]

Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack

I took a couple of liberties Jack, hope it's to your liking. Great write up BTW, definitely needed some pics.

[poppachubby]

Yes Jack, again, great write up man.


Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side.

You kidding?!? Please don't apologize. I get so bored of the same old descriptives, they become expected. Blah, blah, blah soundstage blah dynamics blah etc etc etc...

Hey, I'm guilty of it too. It's nice to get a fresh perspective. When you talk in terms of music, I can understand. I have a really nice original copy of Aja. It really is a gem. Is yours remastered?


The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope.

I heard your combo recently when I paid a visit to a member of Audio Karma to pick up some tubes. Aside from that, I keep bumping into the 1012 everywhere I go (not literally of course, or then I would have NOWHERE to go). It really is a great cartridge.


The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away.

I'm a horn man myself, so I know what you mean. I personally can't get enough trumpet. You might laugh, but one of the finest pressings of a sax solo that I have is on INXS' Kick LP. The song "Never Tear Us Apart" has, IMO, one of the most effective sax solos going. Short but sweet. I listen to alot of funk, soul and jazz...all horns, all the time baby.

frenchmon is discovering the beauty of brass/horns on analog. It's one of my favorite things about LPs, and probably what keeps me interested the most.


Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off

Lately I read something that blew my mind. It was a post regarding upgrading and the like. Anyhow, this poster wrote that the best way to enjoy your gear, is to NOT listen to anything better. Well, this really rang true for me, maybe for you to huh Jack? Somedays I think I have all I need, then I visit my local shop and I'm planning another upgrade. Tough bug to fight off.

BTW, the words of wisdom came from our very own 02audionoob. The Socrates of audio. It's fun to check out the good stuff, as long as perspective can be maintained. VPI make tables worth killing for. Now that noob has a P5, it's a distinct possibility that his MF5 could end up in my listening room. After reading your review, I like the idea more and more.

Anyhow Jack I'm always envious of someone having a good time. Enjoy!!

[jrhymeammo]

You kidding?!? Please don't apologize. I get so bored of the same old descriptives, they become expected. Blah, blah, blah soundstage blah dynamics blah etc etc etc...


I agree on Jack's honest write up as well as how people(Pro and Amateurs) rave every single gear they get their hands on. Or maybe I'm just a cynical bastard.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack

There are 2 ways to take care of this.
You must hit "Reply Post" instead of "Quick Reply" then insert an attachment by clicking on a paper clip tab next to that white smiley face. This should automatically add the pic to your Personal Gallery.

Or what I do is load a pic to my Phono Gallery then Right click the picture=>View Image=>Copy the link of the picture=>Quick Reply to the discussion thread=>Insert the link of the pic.

[frenchmon]

Picked up my new 5.1 turntable on Saturday. Stephen at "Quest For Sound" had everything waiting for me when I got there. Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off. Now to the business at hand.

While he's writing up the sale, I am thumbing through his LPs and I figure a nice new record for the nice new table would be only fitting. Spotting a copy of Traffic's " John Barleycorn, I add that to the till. Table and vinyl in hand, we exchange our goodbyes and I'm off.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/DSC00222.JPG

Setup is pretty basic and very similar to my MMF 2.1, so things go smoothly. I'm pretty methodical and have a tendency to read everything twice. About an hour and a half later, I'm ready to spin vinyl. Load the afore mentioned Traffic LP on the platter, spin the record clamp down ( new experience for me ) and turn the motor on. Let it run for a couple minutes while I check the manual again, oh it's fun being anal. Here we go.

Nice detail in the saxaphone and flute work is the first thing that I notice. Since this is a new LP, I can't compare it to the 2.1 table. But I do have this on CD and there is a marked difference. The vinyl sort of pulls you into the music and you become one with the sound.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/DSC00212.JPG

Then I put on my copy of Dvorak's "Carnival Overture" and "Othello Overture". I pull out my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones for this. The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope. Next up is my superb copy of Steely Dan's "Aja". The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away. Now I'm hearing the background vocals clearly. Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound. But if this is what I can expect from my future listening sessions, my vinyl is going to get some more rotations.
Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side. Enjoy your vinyl.

Nice table Jack and congrats....at this time...im thinking about a future purchase of the MMF5.1's cousin...the Pro-Ject 1 Xpression III if I dont grab a nice vintage table like a VPI or Thorens, or something like that.

[frenchmon]

Jack...btw, what is your table sitting on? Looks like its doing a balancing act....lol.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I took a couple of liberties Jack, hope it's to your liking. Great write up BTW, definitely needed some pics.

Great job Poppa. That was exactly what I was trying to do myself. Thanks so much.

BTW my copy of Aja is the Limited Edition 180 gram from Cisco Music. Got it from Acoustic Sounds.

[02audionoob]

What a great thread! I wish there was some sort of automatic alert coming my way when there's a new thread in the Analog Room. Very nice new turntable, Jack...and nice review thoughts. I was going to compliment your nicely organized photos in the OP, too...until I saw Chubbs did it. :D

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Jack,

Are you using Onkyo's internal phono stage?
Since you got a great TT, I think you will be floored by how LP can sound with an external phono preamp.
Don't you hate it when someone suggests you to spend cash after you've made a major purchase? :devil:

Enjoy your new toy and tons of records to come.

JRA

[jrhymeammo]

Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound.

I cannot back up my statement with any proof, but it is my non-scientific belief that LP needs to be played few times before it can sold its best.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hey Jack,

Are you using Onkyo's internal phono stage?
Since you got a great TT, I think you will be floored by how LP can sound with an external phono preamp.
Don't you hate it when someone suggests you to spend cash after you've made a major purchase? :devil:

Enjoy your new toy and tons of records to come.

JRA

I am using the Onkyo's as my phono stage. Any thought on a good place to start with a phono pre? I had been looking at different ones and the Pro-ject Tube Box II caught my eye.

[Jack in Wilmington]

What a great thread! I wish there was some sort of automatic alert coming my way when there's a new thread in the Analog Room. Very nice new turntable, Jack...and nice review thoughts. I was going to compliment your nicely organized photos in the OP, too...until I saw Chubbs did it. :D

Thanks Noob, I'm still trying to get this photo thing right. I don't know if it's my computer that won't let me copy the photos to my post. Right now I have red squares covering all the options where the attachments icon is and all the other ones. So I've pushed something that shouldn't be pushed.

[jrhymeammo]

If your budget is less than $1K then the best option is to go used, but that's just my opinion. What's your budget?

[Jack in Wilmington]

If your budget is less than $1K then the best option is to go used, but that's just my opinion. What's your budget?

Probably up to around $400. Since I just put out about $650 on the table.

[02audionoob]

Thanks Noob, I'm still trying to get this photo thing right. I don't know if it's my computer that won't let me copy the photos to my post. Right now I have red squares covering all the options where the attachments icon is and all the other ones. So I've pushed something that shouldn't be pushed.

What some of us are doing for photos is posting them to Flickr.com. We then paste the address to the photo like this... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/4452145851_74a1095df2_m.jpg .... between a and a .

[Jack in Wilmington]

What some of us are doing for photos is posting them to Flickr.com. We then paste the address to the photo like this... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/4452145851_74a1095df2_m.jpg .... between a and a .

What it's saying is that the size of the file that contains my picture is too large for the forums format. The picture in 955.9 KB and the limit is 244.1 KB. Not sure how to fix that. I'll try the flicker. com approach

[frenchmon]

Probably up to around $400. Since I just put out about $650 on the table.

Thats a very good price Jack....I've seen it about $875 new.

[frenchmon]

I am using the Onkyo's as my phono stage. Any thought on a good place to start with a phono pre? I had been looking at different ones and the Pro-ject Tube Box II caught my eye.

I've heard great things about the Tube box as well as the Jolida JD 9A . Check it out.

[02audionoob]

What it's saying is that the size of the file that contains my picture is too large for the forums format. The picture in 955.9 KB and the limit is 244.1 KB. Not sure how to fix that. I'll try the flicker. com approach

I often use Microsoft Office Picture Manager to resize pictures to 640 x 480 before attaching them to a forum. That makes the picture fit comfortably in the width of the thread and the file size is reduced to well within the limit. If you post a picture to Flickr, it will create multiple sizes and you can choose whichever size you want. The large size can stretch out the these threads, so I choose the medium size.


I've heard great things about the Tube box as well as the Jolida JD 9A . Check it out.

I used to have the original model Pro-Ject Tube Box, which became the Tube Box SE and then the Tube Box SE II. I got it for a little under $300 on eBay and sold it for a little over than on Audiogon. They're still floating around for that same money. They're very good...well worth the $300 to $350 they go for and I think generally regarded as better than the current model Tube Box II.

[Mr Peabody]

It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in? I don't know about containing phono stage but some of the older CJ preamps can be found on Audiogon for $400 or $500.00. Of course, that would lead to the HT integration thing. I'm not sure what year CJ began to add the HT bypass but I'm sure it was never thought of back when the PV10 was built.

It might be worth the extra expense and effort though to run the MM-5 into a better overall preamp as well as phono stage. For now though, glad you are enjoying your new addition.

[poppachubby]

Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.

Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.

I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.

[poppachubby]

It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in?

We just discussed this in another thread. I forget which one. You're right Peabody, for a bit more cash, there are some great preamps out there. The ARC SP9 comes to mind, very versatile for roughly $800.

I think the best idea would be to convert a used tube pre into a dedicated phono stage. This is what we discussed with frenchmon in that other thread. However, this is where a unit like the Tube Box starts to become a value. If you can't best the cost of the Tube Box, then you better be darn sure it's worth it in terms of fidelity.

For your budget Jack, you would probably just come in under. The idea is to grab a vintage American tube pre, and use it as a dedicated phono stage. This is done by using the Tape Out and bypassing all line stages and controls (essentially noise). Obviously the further your money can go to refurbing a stock unit, the better. Coupling caps and resistors should be replaced. There is also a great mod for the RIAA circuit.

Dynaco, EICO, Scott, Fisher, Sherwood are all good names. Problem is many people are discovering these brands, so the cat is out of the bag. Prices have gone up significfantly in the last few years.

[frenchmon]

Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.

Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.

I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.

Im sorta running into that with my MMF 2.1

My preamp and speakers are really showing me the flaws in my budget table. It really does not have good detail at lower volume listening until I turn it up... and when the music stops I can hear the rumble. And while listening at louder volume levels, I keep wanting more out of it. But all in all, I really like it...I just know that its not on the same level as the rest of my gear. But for a entry level deck it performs well. I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.

[poppachubby]

I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.


Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.

[frenchmon]

Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.

Yes, I know...I wouldn't mind having one of those Marantz tables though....but yes, its Clearaudio all the way...even down to the cart. Have you had a chance to listen to one? The one we listen to was pared with a Very expensive Macintosh preamp and very expensive Classe mono amps. And the Klipsch speaker system that retails for $20,000 a pair. The Podiums.

[02audionoob]

I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.

[jrhymeammo]

I think if you were to spend less than $400, then I wouldn’t go for Tube Box II, or anything below $200.<o></o>
Tube Box II is basically Project’s Phono Box II with added tube circuit.<o></o>
Not to say Phono Box II is a bad unit, but I think your system deserves something a little better like a used Tube Box SE (bigger unit).<o></o>
<o></o>
As Noob suggested, PJ Tube Box (original) is a good unit. <o></o>
I would need to hear it again in my system to really say but I, too, had owned one and never thought it sounded neutral by any means.<o></o>
But the best thing about the unit is that it offers soulful midrange that keep you up at night.<o></o>
It’s not a High End Audiophile piece of unit, just a damn good unit.<o></o><o></o>

BUT, for another $300 or so, you can find a used Audio Research PH3.<o></o>
The AR is far above PJ Tube box. It is well built, neutral with a touch of warm, plenty of gain and overall margin to satisfy 95% of MM and even low output cartridges.<o></o>
If I was in your position, I would save until this winter and get a used AR PH-3. Who knows maybe you can stretch to the PH-3SE.
<o>
</o>

[frenchmon]

I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.

Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.

[02audionoob]

Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.

I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.

[Jack in Wilmington]

7009

Hey Frenchie, I'm sorry I never answered your question. It's sitting on the top shelf of my equipment rack, which has glass shelves. You may not be able to tell that in the picture.
I like the look of the Jolida. Saw one on Audiogon but it was brand new and full price.


Jack...btw, what is your table sitting on? Looks like its doing a balancing act....lol.

[frenchmon]

I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.

noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.

[frenchmon]

7009

Hey Frenchie, I'm sorry I never answered your question. It's sitting on the top shelf of my equipment rack, which has glass shelves. You may not be able to tell that in the picture.
I like the look of the Jolida. Saw one on Audiogon but it was brand new and full price.

Oh...yeah in the picture it look like it was sorta just floating. Yeah the Jolida is nice. You also have a nice system....once again congrats on the new table and you got a very good price. I don't know if my dealer can give me a price like that.

[poppachubby]

noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.

Awesome right? My "dream" pre is an ARC SP9, EStat and JoeESP9 both own one. They are discontinued and only available new.

I've heard a couple of pretty awesome DIY tube set ups myself. You'll rarely meet an eccentric tube type who doesn't make their own speakers.

Sure, as a rule tubes are warmer, but I don't think it's the bowl of mush that alot of people would like to think it is. I have my main rig right across from a respectable SS set up for my computer.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Oh...yeah in the picture it look like it was sorta just floating. Yeah the Jolida is nice. You also have a nice system....once again congrats on the new table and you got a very good price. I don't know if my dealer can give me a price like that.

It's taken years and trial and error to get this far. I started 10 years ago, and every piece of gear that I originally bought has been replaced. This is like my fifth turntable. Now I'm sort of fine tuning with the phono amp and other cartridges.

Oh and don't forget that what I paid for the 5.1 was because I had the 2.1 as a trade in.

[frenchmon]

Awesome right? My "dream" pre is an ARC SP9, EStat and JoeESP9 both own one. They are discontinued and only available new.

I've heard a couple of pretty awesome DIY tube set ups myself. You'll rarely meet an eccentric tube type who doesn't make their own speakers.

Sure, as a rule tubes are warmer, but I don't think it's the bowl of mush that alot of people would like to think it is. I have my main rig right across from a respectable SS set up for my computer.

PoppaC, Some tubes are warmer, but all tubes are not boring and laid back. The new tubes he replaced his old ones with gave a lot more life to his system. I've never heard tubes sound mildly warm with good highs like this. It just pulled your entire attention into what the music was speaking. a good Mac amp with a good Audio research preamp....priceless! The stand mount speakers where about 17 inches tall 10 inches wide and 12 inches deep and made of solid light oak sides that he cut himself. He had Vifa mid woofers and Morel tweeters, and made the crossovers himself. He made all his cables and interconnects himself. The speaker wires where made of a bunch of very thin gauge wire....something like 26 gauge but it was all braided up to make a single cable. The system was and sounded totally awesome.

[frenchmon]

It's taken years and trial and error to get this far. I started 10 years ago, and every piece of gear that I originally bought has been replaced. This is like my fifth turntable. Now I'm sort of fine tuning with the phono amp and other cartridges.

Oh and don't forget that what I paid for the 5.1 was because I had the 2.1 as a trade in.

What phono amp did you get?

[Jack in Wilmington]

What phono amp did you get?

Going to look at the Pro-Jects this afternoon. I can't believe all the phono amps out there.
Lots to look at for sure.

Sounds like this guy you went to visit is really talented. I would never think of building my own speakers.

[02audionoob]

Going to look at the Pro-Jects this afternoon. I can't believe all the phono amps out there.
Lots to look at for sure.

Sounds like this guy you went to visit is really talented. I would never think of building my own speakers.

If you get a chance to listen to a PS Audio GCPH or a Phonomena 2, don't pass it up.

[frenchmon]

Going to look at the Pro-Jects this afternoon. I can't believe all the phono amps out there.
Lots to look at for sure.

Sounds like this guy you went to visit is really talented. I would never think of building my own speakers.

Yeah he's got skills.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Well I pulled the trigger on the Pro-ject Phono Box SE II. Listened to it hooked up to their RM 9.1 table and it sounded great. Got it for $299 and he threw in a pair of audioquest snake interconnects.

Got to listen to the new Paradigm Signature 25 Sub. Wow only scratches the surface.
He played "War of the Worlds" chapter 5 I think, where the robots come out of the street and start vaporizing everybody. Serious LFE stuff.

In a new room they had constructed I listened to the new Wilson Audio "Sasha's". They may be my favorite Wilsons. Everything sounded "right" not overdone like the WP's

All in all a nice afternoon.

[frenchmon]

Man...you know how to find a deal don't you.

[poppachubby]

Great deal Jack, let us know what you think.

[jrhymeammo]

Well I pulled the trigger on the Pro-ject Phono Box SE II. Listened to it hooked up to their RM 9.1 table and it sounded great. Got it for $299 and he threw in a pair of audioquest snake interconnects.

Got to listen to the new Paradigm Signature 25 Sub. Wow only scratches the surface.
He played "War of the Worlds" chapter 5 I think, where the robots come out of the street and start vaporizing everybody. Serious LFE stuff.

In a new room they had constructed I listened to the new Wilson Audio "Sasha's". They may be my favorite Wilsons. Everything sounded "right" not overdone like the WP's

All in all a nice afternoon.

Congrats Jack,
That should be few steps above your Onkyo phono stage.
I haven't heard the SE unit, but I imagine it to be well above the Phono II.
We look forward to your review later down the road.

JRA

[Jack in Wilmington]

Congrats Jack,
That should be few steps above your Onkyo phono stage.
I haven't heard the SE unit, but I imagine it to be well above the Phono II.
We look forward to your review later down the road.

JRA

Thanks Guys, that will be something to look forward to when I get back from vacation. If it wasn't for you guys, I might not have thought of a phono pre. I also noticed the Pro-ject Speed Box when I was at my dealer. I'll let you know when it's time to suggest that. I need to get some more vinyl now.

[frenchmon]

Did you sell your old table?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Did you sell your old table?

Traded it in on the 5.1. That's what made me jump on the deal. It's nice that this guy will take your old stuff in trade. That's why I always keep my eye on his used and demo gear.
I went to my Pro-ject dealer to talk about an Xperience table, but they don't do trade-ins.
He's still trying to talk me out of my Usher X-719's. The only thing that his has that fits my budget are a pair of Vienna Acoustics "Mozarts". He had me bring in my Ushers for a shoot out between them and a pair of Paradigm Sig 2's. Then he tried the Studio 20's
It took the small floorstanders ( Mozarts and Studio 60's) to equal the bass extension of the X-719, but then the mids weren't as detailed and the highs were a little more etchy. Especially on the Studio 60's. Sorry to ramble on so. When I was in yesterday to order the Pro-ject Phono Pre, he was like " Hey still enjoying those Ushers" . I know he wants another shot.

[poppachubby]

Hi-Fi salesguys always hate anything you own. It's never good for any amount of reasons. Too old, too lo-fi, too ugly. They have to in order to better sell their wares. I love the local guys I deal with but when it comes to the "biz" side of things, I just snicker.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi-Fi salesguys always hate anything you own. It's never good for any amount of reasons. Too old, too lo-fi, too ugly. They have to in order to better sell their wares. I love the local guys I deal with but when it comes to the "biz" side of things, I just snicker.

I've bought my share of gear from him over the years, amp, subwoofer, wifes TV last Christmas and that's the stuff I still own. He's been with this company for 20 years and the guys that work with him say he's got gear put away in his closets that would make you drool.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks Guys, that will be something to look forward to when I get back from vacation. If it wasn't for you guys, I might not have thought of a phono pre. I also noticed the Pro-ject Speed Box when I was at my dealer. I'll let you know when it's time to suggest that. I need to get some more vinyl now.


Hey Jack,

I have noticed a notable improvement with the SpeedBox II with my Pro-Ject Xpression I used have, but I didn't think it was a must have item. If I was in your position, I think I would rather purchase more LP. Enjoy your vacation!

JRA

[frenchmon]

Traded it in on the 5.1. That's what made me jump on the deal. It's nice that this guy will take your old stuff in trade. That's why I always keep my eye on his used and demo gear.
I went to my Pro-ject dealer to talk about an Xperience table, but they don't do trade-ins.
He's still trying to talk me out of my Usher X-719's. The only thing that his has that fits my budget are a pair of Vienna Acoustics "Mozarts". He had me bring in my Ushers for a shoot out between them and a pair of Paradigm Sig 2's. Then he tried the Studio 20's
It took the small floorstanders ( Mozarts and Studio 60's) to equal the bass extension of the X-719, but then the mids weren't as detailed and the highs were a little more etchy. Especially on the Studio 60's. Sorry to ramble on so. When I was in yesterday to order the Pro-ject Phono Pre, he was like " Hey still enjoying those Ushers" . I know he wants another shot.

For the life of me, other than the furniture grade wood on the Vienna Acoustics, I just don't understand what others see in those laid back speakers. For the money there are a lot more choices in speakers that sound miles ahead better than VA's speakers. I mean they have a deep bottom end, but they have no pizazz...no sparkle, nothing to draw you in. They are some of the most boring speakers I have ever heard....I like speakers to have life, energy...pizazz. I have listen to Vienna Acoustics over and over again to try and like them, but I just don't. I don't find them engaging at all.

[frenchmon]

Hey Jack,

I have noticed a notable improvement with the SpeedBox II with my Pro-Ject Xpression I used have, but I didn't think it was a must have item. If I was in your position, I think I would rather purchase more LP. Enjoy your vacation!

JRA

Whats your honest opinion of the Pro Ject Xpression 1?

I think the newer Xpression III is suppose to be even greater...you would think.

[Jack in Wilmington]

For the life of me, other than the furniture grade wood on the Vienna Acoustics, I just don't understand what others see in those laid back speakers. For the money there are a lot more choices in speakers that sound miles ahead better than VA's speakers. I mean they have a deep bottom end, but they have no pizazz...no sparkle, nothing to draw you in. They are some of the most boring speakers I have ever heard....I like speakers to have life, energy...pizazz. I have listen to Vienna Acoustics over and over again to try and like them, but I just don't. I don't find them engaging at all.

Frenchie they are a fickle speaker. I've heard them sound boring at Tweeter, when they were in business. Must have been the electronics or the room. When I heard them at my Pro-ject dealer, I didn't think he had the Mozarts playing. He was running them through Ayre equipment and they really opened up. That is one speaker that I would have to audition at home with my own gear. They are what I call "polite".

[poppachubby]

Whats your honest opinion of the Pro Ject Xpression 1?

I think the newer Xpression III is suppose to be even greater...you would think.

I have heard several ProJect Expression tables in great length. They are wonderful tables at their price point, the Carbon arm is an absolute joy to listen to and brings life out of any cart I've heard on it.

I recently did a shoot out with an Expression Mahogany and the new 1.3 Genie. They both had the same cart and the Expression was so much more musical with better imaging and staging. Blew the Genie out of the water frankly, which was dissapointing for me as I wanted the Genie to be better.

My local shop deals Pro-Ject and has for years. Any idle afternoon I have, if the wifey is out with the kids, I can spend it there listening to gear. They have several rooms which mimic a real room in a home, of course the amplification is always super hifi...

The rooms are viewable in the "Store Tour"

http://www.targethifi.com/

[frenchmon]

I've listen to them over and over again. And they where just plain old laid back. I've never heard them open up at all. Those speakers are very dark. I think they are darker than Dynaudio speaker. I would love to do a shoot out with them and Dynaudio speakers....the Dyns would have more life.

[frenchmon]

I have heard several ProJect Expression tables in great length. They are wonderful tables at their price point, the Carbon arm is an absolute joy to listen to and brings life out of any cart I've heard on it.

I recently did a shoot out with an Expression Mahogany and the new 1.3 Genie. They both had the same cart and the Expression was so much more musical with better imaging and staging. Blew the Genie out of the water frankly, which was dissapointing for me as I wanted the Genie to be better.

My local shop deals Pro-Ject and has for years. Any idle afternoon I have, if the wifey is out with the kids, I can spend it there listening to gear. They have several rooms which mimic a real room in a home, of course the amplification is always super hifi...

The rooms are viewable in the "Store Tour"

http://www.targethifi.com/

Thanks PoppaC. I plain on making it my next table. Do you mean the Xperience Classic? If so that table cost $1499 while the Genie is $499 and the Xpression lll is $699. I would think both would be an upgrade from the Genie 1.3

What I have heard is the the Xpression lll is basically the same as the Music Hall 5.1 with a few trade offs. While the 5.1 has better isolation and two plinths...the Xpression has a quieter motor and better arm and a cheaper price. I dont know how true that is but thats what I heard. But to me they seem to be two different tables altogether.

I will try and get pictures up tomorrow.

[poppachubby]

If I had a choice between the two, I would take the Xpression based on the arm's value and sound. You can always isolate the table with DIY tricks or after market products. The dual plinth of the Music Hall is indeed great, but not enough to trade off a better arm IMO.

Check out the Xpression Mahogany, I think it's look is right up your alley...like the Xperience you had pictured for a while.

[frenchmon]

PoppaC...that is a nice store. They also have some nice used gear

[poppachubby]

PoppaC...that is a nice store. They also have some nice used gear

You guys were chatting about VA, I heard the Bachs that were at Target. I didn't mind them.

I spend most of my time there, but there is one other high end shop in town. They deal Linn, Krell, Mac and other big names. The analog guy there is a guru, so I like to stop in and pick his brain, or just hang and listen to the shop's LP12.

[02audionoob]

Thanks PoppaC. I plain on making it my next table. Do you mean the Xperience Classic? If so that table cost $1499 while the Genie is $499 and the Xpression lll is $699. I would think both would be an upgrade from the Genie 1.3

What I have heard is the the Xpression lll is basically the same as the Music Hall 5.1 with a few trade offs. While the 5.1 has better isolation and two plinths...the Xpression has a quieter motor and better arm and a cheaper price. I dont know how true that is but thats what I heard. But to me they seem to be two different tables altogether.

...and don't forget the platter is different, too. These really are two very different turntables. It sounds like the only thing that's the same is where they're made.


If I had a choice between the two, I would take the Xpression based on the arm's value and sound. You can always isolate the table with DIY tricks or after market products. The dual plinth of the Music Hall is indeed great, but not enough to trade off a better arm IMO.

I think each person just has to hear one and see what he thinks. I tend to agree on the importance of the arm, but there's synergy that some turntables have and some don't.

[Mr Peabody]

What is new, and an average used price on a LP-12 these days? I sent Frenchmon a CL listing for one, I think seller was asking like $1495.00. I had no idea just caught my eye.

[Mr Peabody]

Oh, and Frenchie, don't be too hard on Vienna, you haven't heard Vandersteen yet.

[02audionoob]

The price of an LP12 would depend on the arm, power supply and cartridge. There was one near me for $800, this past weekend.

[poppachubby]

Noob is right. There are a ton of upgrades offered by Linn for this machine. 1500 seems like a great price for a unit loaded with a few extras and a decent arm.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Oh, and Frenchie, don't be too hard on Vienna, you haven't heard Vandersteen yet.

Good point Mr. P. Vandersteen is really laid back. They should come with a warning label. "Use of this product may cause drowsiness" My Pro-ject dealer just starting selling them. I haven't heard Frenchie's Canton 403's have you?

[Mr Peabody]

I have heard the 403's. In my room they were a bit bass shy but Frenchie says that is not normal. It's hard to explain the Canton midrange, it's a bit forward but it allows for the sound to be very live in the room sounding. Things like organ had more of a 3D feel to the music. 3D may not be accurate when referring to music but I don't know how else to say it, the sound was more able to fool my mind it was live rather than mechanical. I really would like to hear a set of floorstanders.