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ctctc
06-03-2010, 08:42 AM
I am considering purchasing new speakers for my two channel audio system, and due to the layout of the room I would like to first consider bookshelf type speakers on a stand. The amp that I am considering requires speakers to have an efficiency of 89 or better. I would like to begin my search in the $1000 range.

Can anyone recommend speakers that might meet these requirements?

I tried a pair of old B&W DM600 , however they were not very loud [efficient], were lacking in presence compared to my old Marantz speakers, and had no sub lows that I could hear.

markw
06-03-2010, 09:12 AM
They can be designed for any two of these three goals:

1) Small size

2) Efficiency

3) Deep bass

You can have any two, not all three. I think you can forget "sub" bass and sensitivity in a bookshelf speaker.

Isn't that Marantz speaker the one with a 15" woofer and an aftermarket Scanspeak tweeter?

ctctc
06-03-2010, 12:55 PM
They can be designed for any two of these three goals:

1) Small size

2) Efficiency

3) Deep bass

You can have any two, not all three. I think you can forget "sub" bass and sensitivity in a bookshelf speaker.

Isn't that Marantz speaker the one with a 15" woofer and an aftermarket Scanspeak tweeter?

Yes, a 14" woofer actually and the scanspeak tweeters are still on loan. I like the simplicity of your three-goal explanation. I have read many postings in this forum, looked at several online retailers, investigated some speaker manufacturers websites, and am completely confounded on where to start. Are there any small size speakers with deep bass for under $1000 that you can recommend?

markw
06-03-2010, 01:19 PM
IMNSHO, "small speaker" and "deep bass" are oxymorons, particularly when your gold standard is a 14" woofer.

Personally, I think a vintage/older full-sized speaker would be more suited to your wants.

Ther are some towers that have dual woofers that might come somewhat close, but they are not bookshelves. Athena AS-F2's come to mind but they aren't made anymore.

poppachubby
06-03-2010, 01:19 PM
Hello again.

My first rec is a speaker I had the distinct pleasure of hearing recently. It's the Mentor Menuet by a Danish company called Dali. Simply put, it's the smallest speaker with the biggest/cleanest bass sound I have ever heard. Remarkable, and in the $1K range. If you want to achieve all of your goals, and be in the cutting edge, this is it.

http://dali-speakers.com/display_content.php/USA/speakers.html/183/2373

http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.uk/Speakers-Standmount/Dali-mentor-menuet-l.jpg

If you want efficient with great sound, Tekton are another fantastic brand. The Kat's Meow are in your range, but I would suggest the 8.1t which is on sale. By all means email Eric and ask him what you need, very accessible.

http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeakers.htm

http://www.tektondesign.com/images/katsmeowMAIN.jpg

dean_martin
06-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Hello again.

My first rec is a speaker I had the distinct pleasure of hearing recently. It's the Mentor Menuet by a Danish company called Dali. Simply put, it's the smallest speaker with the biggest/cleanest bass sound I have ever heard. Remarkable, and in the $1K range. If you want to achieve all of your goals, and be in the cutting edge, this is it.

http://dali-speakers.com/display_content.php/USA/speakers.html/183/2373

http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.uk/Speakers-Standmount/Dali-mentor-menuet-l.jpg



Cool, poppa. I've been curious about the Dali models with ribbon drivers like the IKON series, but I've read about some integration problems. Did you get to compare the Menuet to a model with the ribbon/dome combo driver?

Geoffcin
06-03-2010, 02:03 PM
I am considering purchasing new speakers for my two channel audio system, and due to the layout of the room I would like to first consider bookshelf type speakers on a stand. The amp that I am considering requires speakers to have an efficiency of 89 or better. I would like to begin my search in the $1000 range.

Can anyone recommend speakers that might meet these requirements?

I tried a pair of old B&W DM600 , however they were not very loud [efficient], were lacking in presence compared to my old Marantz speakers, and had no sub lows that I could hear.

Totem Rainmaker;

http://www.totemacoustic.com/images/products/compact/rainmaker/shot.jpg

Huge sound from a modest sized speaker. My favorite $1k standmount!

http://www.totemacoustic.com/pdf/review/rainmaker/Absolute-sound_Rainmaker.pdf

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/bookshelf-speakers/totem-acoustic/rainmaker/PRD_324845_4290crx.aspx

02audionoob
06-03-2010, 02:59 PM
I was there with Chubbs, listening to the Dali speakers. Everyone in the room (including 02audionoob) was highly impressed. This wasn't just a speaker that sounded great for its size...this was a speaker that sounded great.

poppachubby
06-03-2010, 05:49 PM
Cool, poppa. I've been curious about the Dali models with ribbon drivers like the IKON series, but I've read about some integration problems. Did you get to compare the Menuet to a model with the ribbon/dome combo driver?

No Dean. Just so you know the Menuet were hooked into a Rega system. All I can tell you is that if you were there, the last thing you would have thought about is comparison.

These things are in a league of their own. Very impressive. We couldn't believe there was no sub hooked up.

dean_martin
06-03-2010, 07:14 PM
I'm going with you guys next time.

jrhymeammo
06-05-2010, 11:21 AM
What the size of your room?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html

Sierra-1 by Ascend Audio.
They sound very good, and crazy good considering the price.

Th Sierra-1s are rated at 87dB, but they offered plenty of volume with 8 watt valve based integrated amp. 5.25" woofers provide plenty of bass as well.

RGA
06-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Totem Rainmaker;

http://www.totemacoustic.com/images/products/compact/rainmaker/shot.jpg

Huge sound from a modest sized speaker. My favorite $1k standmount!

http://www.totemacoustic.com/pdf/review/rainmaker/Absolute-sound_Rainmaker.pdf

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/bookshelf-speakers/totem-acoustic/rainmaker/PRD_324845_4290crx.aspx

The 602 has more bass than the Rainmaker without the frequency issues and is less expensive than the rainmaker. I like the Rainmaker if we're talking about sound quality under a grand too but it has gutless bass.

RGA
06-05-2010, 01:00 PM
They can be designed for any two of these three goals:

1) Small size

2) Efficiency

3) Deep bass

You can have any two, not all three. I think you can forget "sub" bass and sensitivity in a bookshelf speaker.

Isn't that Marantz speaker the one with a 15" woofer and an aftermarket Scanspeak tweeter?

I would add that to get those three things it will also come at a premium price. Also, a speaker can get you the bass depth but it may not provide the dynamics or smudge the midrange. The Dynaudio C1 has a lot of bass but isn't particularly agile in the midrange and I'll trade some bass for midrange openness and dynamics every time.

RGA
06-05-2010, 01:09 PM
I am considering purchasing new speakers for my two channel audio system, and due to the layout of the room I would like to first consider bookshelf type speakers on a stand. The amp that I am considering requires speakers to have an efficiency of 89 or better. I would like to begin my search in the $1000 range.

Can anyone recommend speakers that might meet these requirements?

I tried a pair of old B&W DM600 , however they were not very loud [efficient], were lacking in presence compared to my old Marantz speakers, and had no sub lows that I could hear.

The B&W 602S2 or 602S3 and their new replacements should have about all the bass you are going to get from a speaker around this size and under a grand. Like Mark noted you have to give up some things in this price and size bracket if you want to maintain high efficiency. Small speakers trying for big bass are usually inefficient or sound rather muddy in the midrange like the Totem Model one which has great bass for the tiny size but also sounds incredibly boxy and shut in.

Standmounts in theory have the advantage that sound comes from a point in space and therefore sounds cohesive - but many designs don't really produce in practice. Since most don't offer the dynamics in the midrange or bass drive then you could try for a quality standmount and add a sub later (though I've found this route to be more of a headache). Many floorstanders take up the same footprint as a standmount on a stand so you might be better off looking at some of them. Floorstanders tend to have higher efficiency and bigger physical drivers which can provide a bigger more effortless presentation. Some are also two way so you get the "theoretical" advantage of the standmount.

frenchmon
06-05-2010, 01:55 PM
Cool, poppa. I've been curious about the Dali models with ribbon drivers like the IKON series, but I've read about some integration problems. Did you get to compare the Menuet to a model with the ribbon/dome combo driver?

Before I moved to St.Louis, I lived in Raleigh/Durham/Cary/Chapel Hill North Carolina. All the cities are small college towns next to each other, but is one of the Technology head quarters for many big companies...white collar work force. This is why thy had so many hi-fi shops. I had the privilege to listen to a lots of gear that you cant get here in St.Louis. One Hi-Fi shop was Audio Video Excellence. They had a full line of Dali speakers. I had a chance to listen to the Ikon 1, 2, 5 and 6. I also had a chance to listen to the Helicon 300 MK2 and the Helicon 400 MK2

Firstly...if you have a chance to get the 400 MK2, grab them if you can afford the price. They are a nice High-End speaker with a large following...cult like.

The speakers are just gorgeous in real wood veneer. They where connected to Cary audio tubes and the 300 MK2 stand mount was connected to a Cayin audio integrated tube amp the A-50t. Both speakers where well balanced. But you have to match them correctly to the right gear. They have unbelievable detail in the highs and upper mids. If you don't pair them correctly, the top end will over power the bottom end....this is due to the fact they have a hybrid tweeter system...one tweeter is ribbon and the other is silk dome.

The Ikons are mid-fi speakers. The finish was not shinny like the Helicon line but never the less they where not bad looking at all. The price is more reasonable. They where comparable in price to Paradigm Monitors or Monitor Audio RX series. Vinyl wrap no wood. They too where connected to Cayin tubes with a Cary Audio CDP and I do remember listening to Diana Krall. Her voice was clear with tons of air. I could hear great detail from her breathing as she sang. Lots of air and detail from the hybrid tweaters. They did not sound like the Helicons but they still sounded good but not as balanced. The bass was not a profound as the tweaters. After listening to the Krall CD they switch out the Ikons and replaced them with a pair of Theil's. The Ikons made the Theils sound boring.

MrP and I got a chance to listen to the Mentor Menuets at a local shop here in St. Louis. To me they sounded much different from the Ikons and Helicons. They where less detail in the mids and highs...did not have the detailed extension in the tweaters and had more of a balanced sound with a good bottom end....overall a good little stand mount speaker.

Geoffcin
06-05-2010, 03:06 PM
The 602 has more bass than the Rainmaker without the frequency issues and is less expensive than the rainmaker. I like the Rainmaker if we're talking about sound quality under a grand too but it has gutless bass.

Well if you drive Rainmakers with gutless amplification then it's just GIGO. I've heard them driven with proper amplification and they had SMOKING bass. Truly eye blinking, scratch you head kinda bass came out of these modest sized speakers.

All Totem products need amps than can deliver current. The minimum I would use with the Rainmaker is something like my 50wpc Music Hall 25.2 (100w into 4 Ohms). However a decent amp in the 100wpc+ range will definitely make these modest speakers shine. When I got to hear these speakers for the first time. Vince Bruzzese, the owner of Totem Acoustic, was using Ayre amplification with like 300wpc and the quality of both the speakers and amplification was obvious. These speakers will definitely show you what your amp's got.

dean_martin
06-05-2010, 04:05 PM
Before I moved to St.Louis, I lived in Raleigh/Durham/Cary/Chapel Hill North Carolina. All the cities are small college towns but is one of the Technology head quarters for many big companies...white collar work force. This is why thy had so many hi-fi shops. I had the privilege to listen to a lots of gear that you cant get here in St.Louis. One Hi-Fi shop was Audio Video Excellence. They had a full line of Dali speakers. I had a chance to listen to the Ikon 1, 2, 5 and 6. I also had a chance to listen to the Helicon 300 MK2 and the Helicon 400 MK2

Firstly...if you have a chance to get the 400 MK2, grab them if you can afford the price. They are a nice High-End speaker with a large following...cult like.

The speakers are just gorgeous in real wood veneer. They where connected to Cary audio tubes and the 300 MK2 stand mount was connected to a Cayin audio integrated tube amp the A-50t. Both speakers where well balanced. But you have to match them correctly to the right gear. They have unbelievable detail in the highs and upper mids. If you don't pair them correctly, the top end will over power the bottom end....this is due to the fact they have a hybrid tweeter system...one tweeter is ribbon and the other is silk dome.

The Ikons are mid-fi speakers. The finish was not shinny like the Helicon line but never the less they where not bad looking at all. The price is more reasonable. They where comparable in price to Paradigm Monitors or Monitor Audio RX series. Vinyl wrap no wood. They too where connected to Cayin tubes with a Cary Audio CDP and I do remember listening to Diana Krall. Her voice was clear with tons of air. I could hear great detail from her breathing as she sang. Lots of air and detail from the hybrid tweaters. They did not sound like the Helicons but they still sounded good but not as balanced. The bass was not a profound as the tweaters. After listening to the Krall CD they switch out the Ikons and replaced them with a pair of Theil's. The Ikons made the Theils sound boring.

MrP and I got a chance to listen to the Mentor Menuets at a local shop here in St. Louis. To me they sounded much different from the Ikons and Helicons. They where less detail in the mids and highs...did not have the detailed extension in the tweaters and had more of a balanced sound with a good bottom end....overall a good little stand mount speaker.
Thanks for the insight. I've read about Dalis but never had a chance to audition any.

North Carolina also has a reputation for excellent furniture makers. I have a pair of Soliloquy 5.0 standmount speakers built in NC. The cabinet work is top notch and the sound is pretty good too. Unfotunately, they went out of business a few years ago.

frenchmon
06-05-2010, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the insight. I've read about Dalis but never had a chance to audition any.

North Carolina also has a reputation for excellent furniture makers. I have a pair of Soliloquy 5.0 standmount speakers built in NC. The cabinet work is top notch and the sound is pretty good too. Unfotunately, they went out of business a few years ago.

Your welcome. About the furniture...you are absolutely correct. Furniture stores all over the place. And while im at it....if you get down that way, be sure to find a good "pig pickin."

YBArcam
06-05-2010, 08:48 PM
A couple of speakers I'm currently looking at come to mind. The Monitor Audio RX2. It features an 8" driver in a relatively big box, but it's still a bookshelf speaker. The RX2 is pretty efficient and goes deep, but it's not the smallest bookshelf around of course, though I'm not sure just how small you want to get. It retails for about $900.

The ProAc Studio 110 supposedly goes down to 33 Hz. That's quite incredible if anywhere near accurate. It's small enough and ProAc speakers tend to be efficient. $1,400 I believe.

Then there's the Dynaudio DM 2/8. Another 8" driver bookshelf, relatively efficient for Dynaudio and it'll go deep. Not that unlike the MA RX2. It retails for $1,200. More expensive than the RX2 but not nearly as nice to look at. Maybe it sounds better though.

That Dali is gorgeous.

RGA
06-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Well if you drive Rainmakers with gutless amplification then it's just GIGO. I've heard them driven with proper amplification and they had SMOKING bass. Truly eye blinking, scratch you head kinda bass came out of these modest sized speakers.

All Totem products need amps than can deliver current. The minimum I would use with the Rainmaker is something like my 50wpc Music Hall 25.2 (100w into 4 Ohms). However a decent amp in the 100wpc+ range will definitely make these modest speakers shine. When I got to hear these speakers for the first time. Vince Bruzzese, the owner of Totem Acoustic, was using Ayre amplification with like 300wpc and the quality of both the speakers and amplification was obvious. These speakers will definitely show you what your amp's got.

Why is it that no one asks before they insinuate that I used underpowered amps. I auditioned it with a Bryston 4B, and Parasound amps most recently. But I have also used Classe separates and rather powerful Sim Audio amplifiers in the past. The poster wants a speaker that is 89db or more - the rainmaker is 87db and Totem usually measures lower than their rated spec. Curiously they also state on their site that that "87.5 dB/W/m. Maximum sound pressure before dynamic compression" which I take to mean that once it gets to 87.5 db it will begin to compress. That's not really very good at all if louder levels are desirable. They recommend 30-100 watts.

It also has some treble fatigue which granted a lot of other speakers in this price range have as well. But like some other Totem speakers there is a boom and sizzle quality to them. Several years back I directly compared the Totem Model One against the B&W CDM 2SE which was 2/3 the price and it was far more open dynamic and effortless. The Arro I had a similar experience with again a cheaper Energy C5 where the Arro was more bass and treble and little midrange. It's as if the drivers are trying so hard to pump out deep bass to impress on the showroom floor and sacrifice midrange clarity and seamlessness. The upper midrange lower treble pronouncements somewhat invade the experience for me. I think it's better than all the other standmounts they make in terms of value for the dollar though but there is some stiff competition. The rainmaker is not easy to drive and does not meet the requirement the poster posted. 89db or better. The rainmaker falls short and it is recommended that the end user use 4ohm taps. The OP wants an easy to drive speaker.

The Audio Note AX Two I am considering myself but as Marc pointed out you can't get all three - it has the sensitivity and it's reasonably small but it's probably only good to 60hz but it's also incredibly good on acoustic instruments like Piano giving you the sound of the impression it is capturing more of the fundamentals and overtones than a lot of other speakers are capable of. But it's no bass hound either. It costs several hundred less than the Rainmaker. In general I would avoid metal tweeters in this price range.

Geoffcin
06-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Why is it that no one asks before they insinuate that I used underpowered amps. I auditioned it with a Bryston 4B, and Parasound amps most recently. But I have also used Classe separates and rather powerful Sim Audio amplifiers in the past. The poster wants a speaker that is 89db or more - the rainmaker is 87db and Totem usually measures lower than their rated spec. Curiously they also state on their site that that "87.5 dB/W/m. Maximum sound pressure before dynamic compression" which I take to mean that once it gets to 87.5 db it will begin to compress. That's not really very good at all if louder levels are desirable. They recommend 30-100 watts.


.

Actually the OP wanted standmounts to replace his larger Marantz speakers. His idea of a 89dB+ speaker on a stand isn't going to happen, but the larger "presence" of the Marantz can be had with a smaller speaker like the Rainmakers, which like most speakers of it's size, have not been designed to play absolutely flat, but have a bass and treble "hump". B&W tend to be flatter in response, and the OP didn't like that kind of response, being much more used to what the Marantz sounded like.

I will disagree with you that the Rainmaker is hard to drive. A good amp SS or tubed will drive them just fine as long as the amp can deliver current when called for. I didn't see anywhere that the OP wasn't considering 4ohm speakers.

RGA
06-06-2010, 04:16 PM
The impression I have is that he wants a relatively easy to drive loudspeaker - the Rainmaker isn't and even your post suggested that the trouble I had with them is that "I must be using an insufficiently powered amp," which gives the impression that the speaker needs power. Not all amps are rated for 4ohm or have 4ohm taps.

The B&W 600 is gutless - the 602 is considerably bigger and has a lot more oomph and is a couple hundred less than the Rainmaker. I am no B&W fan but IMO the 602 is a better loudspeaker - cheaper finish though and dumpier looking. None of these will replace a big floorstander with bass. I just didn't hear any big bass from the Rainmaker. The only one I felt has any sort of bass and retained acceptable dynamics and volume capability was the Totem Mani-2. But there are plenty of speakers that offer similar bass ability for 2 grand less and are easier to drive like the Reference 3a MM De Capo.

But certainly auditioning the Rainmaker is fair enough. But I would spend the time paying attention to the midrange very closely. Maybe I'm just getting grumpy about speakers under a grand but they all start irritating me very quickly these days. I need the :7:

Geoffcin
06-07-2010, 12:34 AM
The impression I have is that he wants a relatively easy to drive loudspeaker - the Rainmaker isn't and even your post suggested that the trouble I had with them is that "I must be using an insufficiently powered amp," which gives the impression that the speaker needs power. Not all amps are rated for 4ohm or have 4ohm taps.


The impression that I got was that he wanted a speaker that could play loud, hence the 89dB requirement. Most good amps can drive a 4 ohm load. Even my vintage Fisher 500c receiver has 4ohm taps. Of course if the OP has a flea watt SET then he is looking for the wrong kind of speaker.

TheHills44060
06-07-2010, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the insight. I've read about Dalis but never had a chance to audition any.

North Carolina also has a reputation for excellent furniture makers. I have a pair of Soliloquy 5.0 standmount speakers built in NC. The cabinet work is top notch and the sound is pretty good too. Unfotunately, they went out of business a few years ago.
I love the Soliloquy 5.0's, a fantastic speaker but i was disappointed with the newer "i" versions of that series.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:01 PM
My first rec is a speaker I had the distinct pleasure of hearing recently. It's the Mentor Menuet by a Danish company called Dali. Simply put, it's the smallest speaker with the biggest/cleanest bass sound I have ever heard. Remarkable, and in the $1K range. If you want to achieve all of your goals, and be in the cutting edge, this is it.

It sure is beautiful to look at! It appears that none are stocked for another month or so at the local shop given to me by Dali's website. What is your opinion of published specs? The Mentor Menuet states a low range of 59 hz., but you said that it had a great low end?


I would suggest the 8.1t which is on sale. By all means email Eric and ask him what you need, very accessible.

Thanks, I did contact him and he told me that the speakers are made to order, so there's nowhere I can go to give a listen prior to purchase. Before I have him waste his time making me a pair I would like to know what corners are usually cut to make speakers so much cheaper than more expensive ones with similar specs?

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:10 PM
What the size of your room?

The 700 sqft room is in the shape of an "L" with the main listening area of 12' x 16' x 9'.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:13 PM
Many floorstanders take up the same footprint as a standmount on a stand so you might be better off looking at some of them.

yes, this is definitely worth considering.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Firstly...if you have a chance to get the 400 MK2, grab them if you can afford the price. They are a nice High-End speaker with a large following...cult like.

I believe you, however at $4000 they are a bit beyond my means.


The Ikons are mid-fi speakers. The price is more reasonable. Vinyl wrap no wood.

I should have been born rich, I will pay almost anything to not have vinyl wrap.


The Ikons made the Theils sound boring.

That's interesting, I've read a lot of good things about Thiels.


MrP and I got a chance to listen to the Mentor Menuets at a local shop here in St. Louis. To me they sounded much different from the Ikons and Helicons. They where less detail in the mids and highs...did not have the detailed extension in the tweaters and had more of a balanced sound with a good bottom end....overall a good little stand mount speaker.

Now I have to try to hear all three! Thanks.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:35 PM
The poster wants a speaker that is 89db or more - the rainmaker is 87db and Totem usually measures lower than their rated spec...It also has some treble fatigue which granted a lot of other speakers in this price range have as well...It's as if the drivers are trying so hard to pump out deep bass to impress on the showroom floor and sacrifice midrange clarity and seamlessness...The rainmaker is not easy to drive and does not meet the requirement the poster posted. 89db or better....The OP wants an easy to drive speaker...The Audio Note AX Two I am considering myself but as Marc pointed out you can't get all three - it has the sensitivity and it's reasonably small but it's probably only good to 60hz...But it's no bass hound either...In general I would avoid metal tweeters in this price range.

It has become apparent to me after reading through all of these informative and excellent posts, that I must consider driving any speaker that I get with a larger amp thereby negating the requirement for efficiency... as MarcW once pointed out, start with a speaker and then choose an amp to drive it.

I don't quite yet understand the "treble fatigue" issue.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:43 PM
The Monitor Audio RX2...though I'm not sure just how small you want to get.

Me neither, my Marantz are big ugly vinyl wrapped boxes. My hi-fi guy makes some gorgeous stand mount speakers (http://www.vanlspeakerworks.com/quartet.html) that don't miss any bass that the Marantz can produce, but they are beyond my budget.


The ProAc Studio 110...Then there's the Dynaudio DM 2/8.

OK, that's three more to keep my eye out for.

ctctc
06-07-2010, 04:47 PM
Actually the OP wanted standmounts to replace his larger Marantz speakers. His idea of a 89dB+ speaker on a stand isn't going to happen, but the larger "presence" of the Marantz can be had with a smaller speaker like the Rainmakers, which like most speakers of it's size, have not been designed to play absolutely flat, but have a bass and treble "hump". B&W tend to be flatter in response, and the OP didn't like that kind of response, being much more used to what the Marantz sounded like.

I think that is true! Additionally the B&W were less efficient than the Marantz and therefore much quieter with the amp that I was using.


I didn't see anywhere that the OP wasn't considering 4ohm speakers.

That is also true, the amp that I am using can drive either 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers. Can you tell me why you would choose a speaker by its ohm rating?

JoeE SP9
06-07-2010, 05:15 PM
Being concerned with a speaker being 4 or 8 Ohms is one of the last things I'd be concerned about. I'd put it just below wondering what kind of stuffing was used inside the box.

For me, the only thing that matters with speakers is how they sound.

RGA
06-07-2010, 08:26 PM
It has become apparent to me after reading through all of these informative and excellent posts, that I must consider driving any speaker that I get with a larger amp thereby negating the requirement for efficiency... as MarcW once pointed out, start with a speaker and then choose an amp to drive it.

I don't quite yet understand the "treble fatigue" issue.

The Ohm rating matters more with regards to the impedance shifts. A 4ohm speaker that is stable - doesn't dip below 3ohms is probably fine but some speakers that are 8 ohm rated may dip well below 2 ohms which requires a lot more power from the amplifier - these tend to be inefficient designs and IME not terribly dynamic and sound a little sludgy.

Money ends up going somewhere and I personally prefer to see it go to the loudspeakers or the source (if turntable is the source) but it depends on the overall budget of the system.

I am not a huge bass hound - I want enough bass at reasonable levels but it depends on what you listen to. But once you've had a system that has quality bass it's hard to go back.

I don't believe you want to sacrifice efficiency to gain bass. High efficiency speakers tend to sound far more open and exciting and "live" which is why all concerts and all night clubs use high efficiency robust loudspeakers. Tannoy makes a great club speaker I heard in a bar in South Korea of all places with dual massive 18 inch woofers in their dual concentric designs. They were reasonably refined and could truly thunder.

Small standmount speakers have compromises that all manufacturers have to work on and play with to maximize the most they can out of them. The first and usually not handled well at all is having the tweeter match up with the woofer so there is no "audible" gap. Treble fatigue IME is cause by either a tweeter that continuously sounds like a tweeter - you hear it project separate of what you would hear from real instruments. Ie; You hear the tweeter and woofer independanly of each other (something I hear in most of the B&W tweeter on top designs. Over time this is annoying and causes me fatigue. Another issue can be that materials has a sonic signature or a "sound" which is why manufacturers choose certain tweeter materials over others.

It's one thing to get the crossover point but it's also important IMO and in several maker's opinions,to get the characteristic of the physical material of the driver to match well with eachother if a lack of cohesion is an issue. Basically, I like the single driver sound. My ear is bugged by speakers where I hear the tweeter or woofer in a box and I always know I am listening to a box with drivers. I tend to gravitate to speakers using single drivers like Electrotatic panels and lowther types. The problem is usually that both lack a helluva lot of bass so I need to got a design that can offer the same or acceptably close single driver presentation but adds some drive and energy and life to musical instruments while not having the pitfalls of straying too far from the single driver sound.

Any standmount you look into is going to lack ultimate bass depth and what I would consider ultimate drive. Even my Audio Note's or Harbeth's are very large for a standmount and my AN speakers and still need to be corner loaded to gain the bass depth results.

I can suggest two speakers in the sub $2k camp. The Sonist Recital 3 which I heard at CES - it sounds very nice has pretty good bass and is really quick and agile - very very easy to drive - it was driven by 5 watt glow audio amps. 1795/pair - they are quite new to the line-up but they sounded really nice. They have a standmount but I didn't hear them http://forums.audioreview.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=329903

Another speaker that might be interesting - they interest me though I have never heard them are the Omega Loudspeakers. They won't have deep bass but again it might be worthwhile getting better sound and figuring out bass later. Or just hold out until you can afford a better loudspeaker. The Super 6 may have enough bass and I've been reading good things about them. I may try and get a set in for review at some point. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/products/

poppachubby
06-07-2010, 08:34 PM
Rich he's in the 1K range.

poppachubby
06-07-2010, 08:41 PM
It sure is beautiful to look at! It appears that none are stocked for another month or so at the local shop given to me by Dali's website. What is your opinion of published specs? The Mentor Menuet states a low range of 59 hz., but you said that it had a great low end?

Thanks, I did contact him and he told me that the speakers are made to order, so there's nowhere I can go to give a listen prior to purchase. Before I have him waste his time making me a pair I would like to know what corners are usually cut to make speakers so much cheaper than more expensive ones with similar specs?

You are giving alot of credence to published specs in your research. On one hand this is necessary in order to cess out the efficient models, but on another, it may taint your opinion of a good speaker.

Yes, the Menuet had insane bass. We thought there was a sub hooked up!! Whatever the specs are, this speaker was more than capable in the bass dept.

Tekton is essentially a small company. Eric does most of the work which is one way he keeps his costs down. This is no fly by night operation. He has made a slew of speakers which are highly regarded. If you are seeking really dynamic and low bass, they won't be for you. If you are happy with a more natural sounding bass response, these are it.

Tekton's are basically made for SET amps.

YBArcam
06-09-2010, 08:23 AM
Quote:
The Monitor Audio RX2...though I'm not sure just how small you want to get.

Me neither, my Marantz are big ugly vinyl wrapped boxes. My hi-fi guy makes some gorgeous stand mount speakers that don't miss any bass that the Marantz can produce, but they are beyond my budget.

Quote:
The ProAc Studio 110...Then there's the Dynaudio DM 2/8.

OK, that's three more to keep my eye out for.

I was able to do an in home trial of the RX2 over the past few days. My room is relatively small (10x11 approx) and the RX2 was just a bit too much speaker. I cannot move the speakers very far out into the room, while your room is larger and so perhaps you won't have this issue. For me, bass was boomy. The RX2 moved a lot of air and thus they sounded big, which is what I wanted, but again this was too much. It was like feeling soundwaves as much as it was listening to music. But the speakers sounded good otherwise, and I think in a larger room with some space to breathe they would be fine. I almost think a 12 or 15" driver would work better as it would be a bit more effortless.

Also, given the proximity of my speakers to a wall or furniture behind them, I think I have issues with rear ports. Even my Quad 12L2 can sound a bit boomy when the port is working hardest though it's tolerable, but with the RX2 it was a constant issue. I was able to also try the PMC TB2i ($2,000+). It's not a ported speaker and did not exhibit any of these issues. The bass on this one is fantastic. Deep and tuneful.

In light of this I'm going to narrow my search down to either the PMC's or the ProAc Studio 110. Maybe the Paradigm Studio 20 as well. With the latter two being front ported I will hopefully not have these bass issues.

I also compared my Exposure amp to my new Audiolab 8000S. Amps can make a big difference! While not sounding quite as quick as the Exposure, the 8000S provides a more full bodied sound, with a deeper soundstage, greater presence, and smoother highs. Where the sound used to feel distant and a bit thin, it's now thicker and closer to the listener. There is greater weight to the mids. For example, Leonard Cohen's voice now feels closer and has more weight to it. As it should sound, IMO. There are trade offs (the feeling of less pace), but I'm willing to accept that.

blackraven
06-09-2010, 09:46 AM
YB, do the RX2's have ports and did they come with foam plugs for them? I have the older RS-1's which are ported. They sounded a bit boomy without the plugs but with the ports plugged (they came with foam plugs) they have very tight and well controlled bass but not quiet as deep. I'm using them in a 17'x17' room with a cathedral ceiling about 15" from the back wall.

YBArcam
06-09-2010, 10:50 AM
YB, do the RX2's have ports and did they come with foam plugs for them? I have the older RS-1's which are ported. They sounded a bit boomy without the plugs but with the ports plugged (they came with foam plugs) they have very tight and well controlled bass but not quiet as deep. I'm using them in a 17'x17' room with a cathedral ceiling about 15" from the back wall.

Yes, the speaker is rear ported and comes with plugs. I tried the plugs and didn't like the result. It made the speaker sound too small. There was a definite lack of bass and scale.

17x17 is pretty big for a pair of RS1, I would think, although 15" from the back wall is pretty close. When I had the RX2 working they were about 2.5 feet from the back wall. But it wasn't just a back wall, on both the left and right side there is a corner, and in the middle (between the speakers, on which I have my amp and source) is a big credenza. So the ports were essentially firing into a box with one opening, and that is forward. Sound was probably bouncing off the two walls in the corner, and off of the rear wall and credenza, which in effect made a second corner.

blackraven
06-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Yes, the speaker is rear ported and comes with plugs. I tried the plugs and didn't like the result. It made the speaker sound too small. There was a definite lack of bass and scale.

17x17 is pretty big for a pair of RS1, I would think, although 15" from the back wall is pretty close. .

That room is our Master bedroom and the speakers do very well in the room. Its not ideal but we wanted a small speaker that has good sound for some easy listening. And I made a mistake. The speakers are not the RS1's, they are the older S-1's. They have excellent mid bass but the treble is a little rolled off. The tone controls on my vintage 1976 Technics SU-7200 integrated amp compensates for it though.

http://audio-heritage.jp/TECHNICS/amp/su-7200.JPG

ctctc
06-11-2010, 05:06 AM
I had an opportunity to audition a pair of Whatmough P11 bass reflex standmount speakers in my home and was quickly introduced to the limitations of my JoLida FX10 [on loan] integrated tube amplifier.

While I could tell that there was sufficient bass response in this speaker, the sound was shot through with distortions at too many frequencies for me to count. Unless I'm mistaken I believe that this means that the low wattage amplifier was reaching beyond its means to power the speakers.

So... if the prevailing wisdom is to first select a pair of speakers, and then pair it with an appropriate amplifier to drive them, how do you audition speakers without an amp? The classic chicken or the egg argument. Should I ask my local hi-fi guy to come up with a more powerful amp such as the JoLida 202A? (http://www.jolida.com/index.php?p=products&category=2&model=13)

On a personal developmental note I now recognize that all of that tubby and overbearing bass response from my vintage Marantz speakers, with 14 & woofer, are not in the recordings, but are overtones added by the speakers themselves.

markw
06-11-2010, 05:34 AM
Doubling the power to the speaker results in a barely audible 3 decibel increase in loudness. From your description, you seem to be clipping quit frequently.

For some of the speakers recommended in this thread, you may want to look beyond Jolida and perhaps into the 100+ watt amps. Solid state will be the most cost effective solution and there are many fine sounding ones out there.

But, ultimately, select your speakers first and work backwards from there. You can ret assured that the speaker contributes at least 99% of the overall sound of the system, assuming it provides enough clean power to drive the speakers to begin with.

poppachubby
06-11-2010, 05:58 AM
The solution is you must audition speakers with at least 89/90 db of efficiency. Ideally, something in the 94/95 range would be great. Have you heard any Klipsch?

With Tekton's return policy, I think you should order a pair and call it a day.

poppachubby
06-11-2010, 06:01 AM
BTW, where do you live? We can look at your local Craigslist which may open up some auditioning options.

Geoffcin
06-11-2010, 06:59 AM
The 602 has more bass than the Rainmaker without the frequency issues and is less expensive than the rainmaker. I like the Rainmaker if we're talking about sound quality under a grand too but it has gutless bass.

Gutless bass eh?

From the Stereophile review of the Totem Rainmaker by Robert J. Reina ;


"The Totem's rendering of the organ-pedal notes in John Rutter's Requiem (CD, Reference RR-57CD) was as realistic as I've heard from such a small bookshelf speaker, moving a convincing amount of air. I look forward to seeing John Atkinson's measurements of the Rainmaker's bass extension."

ctctc
06-11-2010, 07:01 AM
BTW, where do you live? We can look at your local Craigslist which may open up some auditioning options.

Thanks Poppachubby.

I live in a modest Midwestern town located at the southwestern tip of Lake Michigan. It was named after a fragrant wild onion that the local native americans called shikaakwa, and which the French settlers rendered as Checagau. Well, the natives are long gone and the fragrance of the onions have been replaced by the smell of the politici-onions...in Chicago : )

frenchmon
06-11-2010, 07:55 AM
That's interesting, I've read a lot of good things about Thiels.

Keep in mind...some Dali speakers have whats called a Hybrid Tweeter system....One Ribbon Tweeter and one Fabric or Silk Dome Tweeter stacked on top of each other....side by side in a shoot out with others, they may make alots of Speakers sound boring . But if you dont have the Dali's properly matched with the right gear, the Dali's may come off as being overly ear bleeding bright.

dean_martin
06-11-2010, 08:40 AM
The NOLA Boxer. NOLA and its predecessor ALON made some well-regarded small bookshelf speakers. You don't find many of those on the used market. I'm glad they didn't abandon the format. Here's a link to an article(s) on both the Dali Mentor Menuet mentioned previously and the NOLA Boxer:

http://www.avguide.com/review/dali-mentor-menuet-and-nola-boxer-loudspeakers-tas-203

poppachubby
06-11-2010, 10:49 AM
Here's a great deal and just outside of your budget. Believe it or not your amp would make them go.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/bfs/1783148573.html

Geoffcin
06-11-2010, 11:03 AM
Here's a great deal and just outside of your budget. Believe it or not your amp would make them go.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/bfs/1783148573.html

Those are "bookshelf speakers"? Maybe if your name is Shreck!

poppachubby
06-11-2010, 12:35 PM
Those are "bookshelf speakers"? Maybe if your name is Shreck!

Hahaha....couldn't resist

ctctc
06-12-2010, 05:21 AM
... Have you heard any Klipsch?

Yesterday, on my three-hour one-hour lunch break, I went to another local shop and auditioned the Dali lektor 3, the Cambridge audio SL70, and the KEF iQ10. All were played using a Cary CDP 1, a Cary SLP 98P/98L, and an operetta AP 510 in a 4000 square-foot room with 15 foot high bare walls! The proprietor was pleasant and I had a good time in spite of the dozen or so people that kept walking between me and the speakers!

The Dali Lektor 3 had overpowering highs, the mids sounded as if they were being held in a box somewhere, had a strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. The soundstage was not well defined but included most of the vocals, drums, and occasional guitar and keyboards. Much of the sound was clearly coming from the speakers. While the clarity was strong, overall this was a poor showing.

The KEF iQ10 had quiet highs, good mids, strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. It's soundstage was not any better than the Dali's. The clarity was somewhat muddled, again this was a poor showing.

The Cambridge Audio SL70 had good highs, strong mids, a good base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. These had the most well-defined soundstage of the three, however there were too many things going on in the room for me to concentrate more clearly. The clarity was good, and this one might be worth listening to again under better conditions.

I don't know the quality of the Cary and Operetta equipment, but I'm going to take a leap and state that this was a terrible listening environment. I could be wrong but I would attribute the boomy noise entirely to the room. I would not purchase anything based on this audition. Based upon this listening experience I would stick with theJoLida FX10 and vintage Marantz speakers!


With Tekton's return policy, I think you should order a pair and call it a day.

As you recommended, I spoke with Eric. I found him to be approachable, knowledgeable, and likable and as such I would like to patronize his "Made in USA" store! Unless I'm mistaken his stated return policy is a 15% restocking fee, which he qualified by saying that he could work with me. However I don't want to abuse that, as a small shop, returns probably hurt him. So with a little bit more experience under my belt in auditioning speakers, I intend to give his 8.1t product a try.

Geoffcin
06-12-2010, 05:50 AM
Not to confuse you, but you need not settle for "Standmounts" with a $1k budget. I've owned the slightly larger brother of these; http://www.axiomaudio.com/global/images/products/large/M60CherryGrilleOff2.jpg



http://www.axiomaudio.com/m60.html and it was an outstanding speaker in it's class. Very well designed and remarkable performance.
I would not hesitate to recommend them.

poppachubby
06-12-2010, 06:09 AM
Hey ctctc, you auditioned those three speakers in a gigantic, bare room. This is why they all sounded boomy.

ctctc
06-12-2010, 06:25 AM
Not to confuse you, but you need not settle for "Standmounts" with a $1k budget. I've owned the slightly larger brother of these...

Thanks for the Input, i'll keep my eye out for the axiom audio. The Cambridge Audio SL70 speakers were floorstanders too. It seems that the recession has devastated the inventory of the two local shops that I have visited. My hi-fi guy has no new speakers to show, except his own $2,700 brand, and the pickens at this other shop I went to yesterday were slim.

frenchmon
06-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Yesterday, on my three-hour one-hour lunch break, I went to another local shop and auditioned the Dali lektor 3, the Cambridge audio SL70, and the KEF iQ10. All were played using a Cary CDP 1, a Cary SLP 98P/98L, and an operetta AP 510 in a 4000 square-foot room with 15 foot high bare walls! The proprietor was pleasant and I had a good time in spite of the dozen or so people that kept walking between me and the speakers!

The Dali Lektor 3 had overpowering highs, the mids sounded as if they were being held in a box somewhere, had a strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. The soundstage was not well defined but included most of the vocals, drums, and occasional guitar and keyboards. Much of the sound was clearly coming from the speakers. While the clarity was strong, overall this was a poor showing.

The KEF iQ10 had quiet highs, good mids, strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. It's soundstage was not any better than the Dali's. The clarity was somewhat muddled, again this was a poor showing.

The Cambridge Audio SL70 had good highs, strong mids, a good base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. These had the most well-defined soundstage of the three, however there were too many things going on in the room for me to concentrate more clearly. The clarity was good, and this one might be worth listening to again under better conditions.

I don't know the quality of the Cary and Operetta equipment, but I'm going to take a leap and state that this was a terrible listening environment. I could be wrong but I would attribute the boomy noise entirely to the room. I would not purchase anything based on this audition. Based upon this listening experience I would stick with theJoLida FX10 and vintage Marantz speakers!



As you recommended, I spoke with Eric. I found him to be approachable, knowledgeable, and likable and as such I would like to patronize his "Made in USA" store! Unless I'm mistaken his stated return policy is a 15% restocking fee, which he qualified by saying that he could work with me. However I don't want to abuse that, as a small shop, returns probably hurt him. So with a little bit more experience under my belt in auditioning speakers, I intend to give his 8.1t product a try.

Yesterday morning I was at Magnolia in Bestbuy to take a listen to Pro-Ject TT they had set up....thing sounded terrible and I mentioned to one of the sales guys that it sounded terrible. He came over and started messing with the tracking and mentioned that he did not know what the heck he was doing.

My best guess is that the gear needs to be listened to in your home rather than a store when it is possible...

ctctc
06-16-2010, 07:06 PM
Today I went to another local shop to audition speakers into different listening rooms.

In the first room [approximately 16' x 22' x 10' high with carpeting, acoustical ceiling tile, fabric on some walls, and lots of speakers] we use a Rotel RA-1520 integrated amplifier at 60 W to listen to the following speakers: B&W CM5; phase Tech 1.5; B&W 805; and Thiel SCS4.

The B&W CM5 had good highs and strong mids which were both clear, and decent bass that was somewhat undefined. The soundstage was only partially developed as some of the instruments seemed to be clearly coming from the speakers. Perhaps the positioning of the speakers in the room had something to do with this. I was not too keen on these.

The phase Tech 1.5 had strong highs, good mids, and strong base and all came through clearly. The soundstage was somewhat more developed than the B&W's. I thought these sounded good.

The B&W 805 had outstanding highs, spectacular mids, and luscious bass all in a clean and concise soundstage. They sounded way too good for me, and after he told me the price I understood.

The Thiel SCS4 had flat highs, strong mids, and flat lows although all came through crystal-clear. I couldn't seem to get past the flat sound to concentrate on the soundstage. These seem to be better used for multi-channel surround system.

We then changed rooms [approximately 14' x 20' x 10' high with carpeting, acoustical ceiling tile, fabric on some walls, and lots of speakers] and used a Rotel RC-1550+ and RB-1552 200 W amplifier to listen to the following speakers: phase Tech 1.5; and Thiel CS1.6.

The phase Tech 1.5 had moderate highs, good mids, a strong base, but were terribly boomy and much less well-defined. The soundstage maintained its image that I heard in the first room. They did not sound as good under these conditions.

The Thiel CS1.6 had moderate highs, strong mids, a strong base, and incredible presence, but were also terribly boomy and not well-defined. The soundstage was huge and had great depth. In spite of the boomy sound I would like to take these into the first room next time for a listen.

I asked the salesman where he thought the boomy sound of these two speakers came from, the room or the different amplifier. He wasn't certain but thought that this amplifier had stronger lows than the amp in the first room.

By the way, I feel my budget bursting a little.

poppachubby
06-16-2010, 07:33 PM
Sounds like a good time.

I am buying a mint pair of Mission 707 w/ original stands for $100 locally. They had the price set at $140. Mission have a very specific sound, particularily the 707. These were a very popular model back in the day and still maintain a cult status amongst Mission fans.

The 707 is certainly not a perfect speaker, sonically speaking. However, I think they would blow away many speakers that line the shelves of big box stores.

I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers. I'm making space as we speak, and tommorrow they'll be here.

Good luck!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Joow7uBCK_E/ScVzYTs7nsI/AAAAAAAAAoc/09i9kerOF-s/s400/front+no+grills.jpg

blackraven
06-16-2010, 07:37 PM
I have never heard a Thiel speaker described as boomy. Most people complain that they lack bass. The rooms must not be set up properly. You described a Thiel speaker perfectly except for the bass.

poppachubby
06-16-2010, 07:38 PM
ctctc, here's a great way to check out the Mission sound. For 60 bucks, this is a highly regarded speaker...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ele/1793251945.html

Here's some info on the Freedom Series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Freedom_loudspeaker

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Joow7uBCK_E/Sb_JP17mx6I/AAAAAAAAAng/FNxlEpJl9as/s400/front+3:4.jpg

blackraven
06-16-2010, 07:39 PM
Pops it looks like a great buy there. You should really enjoy them. Mission use to make great sounding speakers. Will they be used in your reference system?

poppachubby
06-16-2010, 07:45 PM
Pops it looks like a great buy there. You should really enjoy them. Mission use to make great sounding speakers. Will they be used in your reference system?

You know it. I'm really excited. They are like new. Check out the 770 FR available in Chi-town for the poster. $60 is a good deal if they';re in good shape.

I'll be posting after some lilstening tommorrow raven.

blackraven
06-16-2010, 07:48 PM
They will sound awesome with that tube gear. I'm looking forward to your review.

ctctc
06-17-2010, 05:48 AM
I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers...

As I am listening to more speakers I am finding that the ones that I prefer are more expensive than my stated budget. It has now occurred to me to consider buying used. My biggest concern when buying used is not knowing if there is a significant problem with the equipment that will make itself apparent only after money has changed hands. For example, I had a Marshall hybrid amp whose volume would drop to zero after about 20 minutes of playing. I'd be hard-pressed to discover that in a demo session.

poppachubby
06-17-2010, 06:28 AM
I understand your concerns, they are shared by new and experienced alike.

A good rule of thumb for this hobby, is not to buy new unless you are 100% certain the item matches your tastes. The stage you are in, and myself also, involves alot of discovery and unfortunately, buying and selling. The more new items you buy, the more money you will lose. Used is great, many times you can get back exactly what you spent. Just a thought.

The comparison of a speaker v Marshall is not a good one. There is less complexity with the speaker, and less things that can be wrong. The most important would be that the speakers both work, and can output sound. NEVER assume. From there the woofer/tweeter condition would be important. Try and look along the seams or joints of the box, does it look tampered or like it's been opened? The input port should be inspected also.

I am going to buy used speakers today. The seller lives in an affluent neighbourhood, and is a 50-something businessman. 90% of the time, this info can be telling vs. buying from a university student for example. Not always, but another piece to the puzzle.

Bottom line, if you're not confident, don't do it. I think by using this site and some good common sense, used could be a great idea for you.

Have a look at Audiogon. Compare the going used prices vs the new street price. This will give you an understanding to the savings that are possible.

BTW, you should buy those Missions "just for the heck" of it. $60 for a fun pair of speakers,

Geoffcin
06-17-2010, 08:12 AM
I have never heard a Thiel speaker described as boomy. Most people complain that they lack bass. The rooms must not be set up properly. You described a Thiel speaker perfectly except for the bass.


I think you nail this on the head. Very few speakers in the Thiel 1.6 class are going to be "boomy" in any case. A slight bass "hump" in the 80Hz-100Hz region maybe, but when you get to speakers this good rarely do you get "boomy" Gotta be the room. How many speakers were in there anyway?

frenchmon
06-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Sounds like a good time.

I am buying a mint pair of Mission 707 w/ original stands for $100 locally. They had the price set at $140. Mission have a very specific sound, particularily the 707. These were a very popular model back in the day and still maintain a cult status amongst Mission fans.

The 707 is certainly not a perfect speaker, sonically speaking. However, I think they would blow away many speakers that line the shelves of big box stores.

I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers. I'm making space as we speak, and tommorrow they'll be here.

Good luck!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Joow7uBCK_E/ScVzYTs7nsI/AAAAAAAAAoc/09i9kerOF-s/s400/front+no+grills.jpg

Congrats PoppaC

hank46
06-19-2010, 06:23 AM
I am considering purchasing new speakers for my two channel audio system, and due to the layout of the room I would like to first consider bookshelf type speakers on a stand. The amp that I am considering requires speakers to have an efficiency of 89 or better. I would like to begin my search in the $1000 range.

Can anyone recommend speakers that might meet these requirements?

I tried a pair of old B&W DM600 , however they were not very loud [efficient], were lacking in presence compared to my old Marantz speakers, and had no sub lows that I could hear.
i own a pair of B&W DM12'S. I use them for music only, and they provide me with loads of bass. of course placement with bookshelf speakers are very important. dispite the age of the B&W DM12 i find it hard to stop playing my music. i would rather own a good pair of 2 ways, then a cheaper pair of 3 ways......

poppachubby
06-19-2010, 06:50 AM
i own a pair of B&W DM12'S. I use them for music only, and they provide me with loads of bass. of course placement with bookshelf speakers are very important. dispite the age of the B&W DM12 i find it hard to stop playing my music. i would rather own a good pair of 2 ways, then a cheaper pair of 3 ways......

I was considering the DM 22 myself, but got a better deal on Mission 707. Who cares about age!?! If they sound great, that's all that matters.

BTW Hank, welcome to AR! You sound like a knowledgeable guy, please stick around and give us your $00.2

ctctc
06-20-2010, 06:03 AM
...A slight bass "hump" in the 80Hz-100Hz region maybe, but when you get to speakers this good rarely do you get "boomy" Gotta be the room. How many speakers were in there anyway?

I would guesstimate about 10 pair. I now understand that the placement of the speaker in the room could sound "boomy". How could I hi-fi shop allow their speakers to be presented in this way?

ctctc
06-20-2010, 06:07 AM
A good rule of thumb for this hobby, is not to buy new unless you are 100% certain the item matches your tastes...Bottom line, if you're not confident, don't do it. I think by using this site and some good common sense, used could be a great idea for you.

Loud and clear!


BTW, you should buy those Missions "just for the heck" of it. $60 for a fun pair of speakers,

yes, I will try to audition them this week.

ctctc
06-20-2010, 06:32 AM
I went to yet another local shop to re-audition the Thiel 1.6 and to listen to B&W CM 9.

We started out using a Rotel RA-1520 integrated amp.

The Thiel CS1.6 had moderate somewhat reserved highs, strong detailed mids, and good lows with a well-defined soundstage and good presence. I was not thrilled with the presentation but it was okay.

The B&W CM 9 had good representation over all spectrums and was more dynamic than the Thiels. The soundstage was not as well-defined but the speakers had a good presence. I was not thrilled with the presentation.

We then changed the amp to a Ayre Ax-7e integrated. This made a huge difference in both speakers. It is of course beyond my budget.

The Thiel CS1.6 were strong at all frequency levels, had great detail in the high range, smooth midrange, and even lows. It had a well-defined soundstage and good presence. I like to this presentation very much and preferred them over the B&W.

The B&W CM 9 were strong at all frequency levels, had good detail in the high range, were very dynamic, however the low end seemed to overpower the other frequencies. There was a strong soundstage and presence. This was a good presentation.

We then the auditioned the Thiel CS2.4 which sounded about 20% better than the 1.6s in all aspects. However this is far beyond my budget.

Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

poppachubby
06-20-2010, 08:16 AM
Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

This is funny. He is either a complete idiot, or a complete liar. You pick.

markw
06-20-2010, 08:41 AM
While I tend to recommend solid-state for speakers that require any amount of power, the salesmans reasons are totally off-the-wall.

Is he the one that's been your local guru all along?

RGA
06-20-2010, 10:37 AM
Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

Your salesman is a hack and I would shop elsewhere. People are running 50 year old ST 70 tube amps and have only replaced the tubes.

Amps whether they are tube or SS will experience problems. Tube amps generally need tube replacements and are relatively inexpensive to fix which can't be said for SS if their board goes. It comes down to the reliability of the makers. One dealer stopped carrying Marantz because they had huge reliability issues. Cambridge Audio and Rega, some NAD and Rotel had periods of horrible reliability and all sell SS.

Virtually every top high end loudspeaker maker at CES brought tube amps to run their speakers. Tube amps probably make up less than .01% of all the amps out there and yet probably accounted for 80%+ of the amplifiers used at CES.

I think you can do better somewhere else and with something better than Thiel.

atomicAdam
06-20-2010, 07:50 PM
Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

I'm gonna have to jump on this band wagon and with a $0.02 shot say that sounds like BS to me.

ctctc
06-21-2010, 05:00 AM
This is funny. He is either a complete idiot, or a complete liar. You pick.

He seemed sincere, and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I'll go with the former : (

ctctc
06-21-2010, 05:10 AM
While I tend to recommend solid-state for speakers that require any amount of power, the salesmans reasons are totally off-the-wall.

Is he the one that's been your local guru all along?

No, my hi-fi guy John Van L. (http://www.montagestudio.com/van/index.html) is a tube amp proponent.

ctctc
06-21-2010, 05:15 AM
I think you can do better somewhere else and with something better than Thiel.

So far I have picked the low hanging fruit when it comes to hi-fi shop's. I'll have to do some more investigation to find others. I will keep looking and listening!

bobsticks
06-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Virtually every top high end loudspeaker maker at CES brought tube amps to run their speakers. Tube amps probably make up less than .01% of all the amps out there and yet probably accounted for 80%+ of the amplifiers used at CES.



While I agree with your overall arguments and the debunking of the misinformation given to our new friend, I don't know if this is compelling supportive evidence. In fairness and the interests of full disclosure it's important to say that there are demographics at play and stylistic concerns.

Just sayin'...

Feanor
06-21-2010, 12:37 PM
While I agree with your overall arguments and the debunking of the misinformation given to our new friend, I don't know if this is compelling supportive evidence. In fairness and the interests of full disclosure it's important to say that there are demographics at play and stylistic concerns.

Just sayin'...
80+% tubes at CES by exhibitors is only playing to the anal retentive, audiophile nerds -- not to mention any names.

RGA
06-21-2010, 12:48 PM
While I agree with your overall arguments and the debunking of the misinformation given to our new friend, I don't know if this is compelling supportive evidence. In fairness and the interests of full disclosure it's important to say that there are demographics at play and stylistic concerns.

Just sayin'...

The thing is there are marketing reasons which I think is your suggestion here that perhaps they bring tube amps because wealthier audiophiles tend to be in the tube camp. CES is targeting dealers.

And I should say that some of my favorite rooms also used Solid State. Usher made good sound, Gallo, JM Labs, The Sony speakers, Magico. And there were some rooms using tubes where the results were less than good: Soundlabs, Wilson Maxx.

It's not that Tubes are inherently better - they most certainly are not and we should not (myself included) get caught up in the tubes/SS camp.

What drives me bonkers is the notion that one is automatically superior. When we get to the best of the best I believe tubes are better but then it is doubtful anyone here can realistically afford $150,000+ amplifiers. Still I have met dealers who grumble about tube amps and then a year later when they're selling them they rave. Most dealers are used car salesmen and they rip whatever they don't sell and love whatever they do sell. And they're opinion changes based on what they sell.

My dealer carries loads of gear SS and tube to top of the line Musical Fidelity and Bryston and McIntosh to tube amps. If every single one of them buys a given amp for their own home that illustrates to me what they feel is truly the best of what they carry. And let's face it it's like anything. If you sell a brand for 10 years you have a good relationship with the company. But if the company brings on a new designer and puts out a new speaker or amp and you don't love the model - you're not likely to dump the line. You'll carry it and let the consumer decide.

All that said there are some less than great quality tube amp makers - and some have had histories of less than great reliability. And those tend to be at the $1k to $1500 price points where "most" dealers sell more product. So if those break down the dealer might lump all tubes together. I know a dealer that had all sorts of trouble with ARC and another all sorts of trouble with Jolida. Even Audio Note had a period where their Capacitors were highly problematic http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/cap_paper.shtml and while they fixed them free of charge it is still a pain in the neck for dealers and consumers.

But these kinds of problems happen to SS makers. Rega CD players for a long period were hugely unreliable, and Krell had a recall - if it can happen to Krell then SS is by no means bullet proof. And while Bryston has a great warranty - they're used a LOT. The biggest Bryston dealer in Canada noted that they come back for repair an awful lot. But since you are paying the hidden warranty cost in the unit at the outset it is no problem to have them repaired.

bobsticks
06-21-2010, 12:49 PM
80+% tubes at CES by exhibitors is only playing to the anal retentive, audiophile nerds -- not to mention any names.

LMAO, between this post and "that other thread" I'm getting the idea that you're feeling a lil' curmudgeony today my friend.

RGA
06-21-2010, 12:55 PM
80+% tubes at CES by exhibitors is only playing to the anal retentive, audiophile nerds -- not to mention any names.

Well Audiophiles tend to care more about the sound quality of reproduced music. And as a result in general are bothered by poor sound and notice better sound. Just like coffee, wine, car, art, and chocolate connoisseurs.

I assume if people are on these forums extensively they are pretty anal about it and would be seeking the best stuff. Otherwise why not shop at Best-Buy and be done with it?

bobsticks
06-21-2010, 01:12 PM
The thing is there are marketing reasons which I think is your suggestion here that perhaps they bring tube amps because wealthier audiophiles tend to be in the tube camp. CES is targeting dealers.

And I should say that some of my favorite rooms also used Solid State. Usher made good sound, Gallo, JM Labs, The Sony speakers, Magico. And there were some rooms using tubes where the results were less than good: Soundlabs, Wilson Maxx.

It's not that Tubes are inherently better - they most certainly are not and we should not (myself included) get caught up in the tubes/SS camp.

What drives me bonkers is the notion that one is automatically superior. When we get to the best of the best I believe tubes are better but then it is doubtful anyone here can realistically afford $150,000+ amplifiers. Still I have met dealers who grumble about tube amps and then a year later when they're selling them they rave. .


Great post and I agree. My main point was that in the brevity of your original post it could be misconstrued by a newb that tubes were inherently better. Great products coming out of both camps and budget, room size, speaker capabilities all factor in the equation.

Geoffcin
06-21-2010, 02:02 PM
Here we go again!

Guys, this is a thread about speakers, not amps, or the "Tubes vs. SS" holy war revisited.

Please stay on topic.

bobsticks
06-21-2010, 02:51 PM
Oh...okay...RGA and I promise to play nice...I would point out that in post #71 the OP introduced the OT discussion...but i do agree we don't need any flamewars.

Ultimately, ctctc, the best course of action would appear to be to arrange some home testings. Also, I would focus on one component at a time...IMO the speakers will obviously make the most significant impact. Start there the rest will come.

As far as amps go, an extended midbass/midrange is often a characteristic of some tube amps. You may not "like" the tube amp sound. But really you have a lot of time to worry about that kind of thing later.

poppachubby
06-21-2010, 07:15 PM
Most dealers are used car salesmen and they rip whatever they don't sell and love whatever they do sell. And they're opinion changes based on what they sell.

Amen. I just got done saying this EXACT thing in another post. They ALWAYS knock down what is old or in opposition to their wares.

ctctc
06-22-2010, 02:28 PM
Oh...okay...RGA and I promise to play nice...I would point out that in post #71 the OP introduced the OT discussion...

yes, I did that. However I sometimes find it useful to qualify my sources, and in this case I learned a lot from the responses. Thank you.

ctctc
06-22-2010, 02:50 PM
My experience at the last two shops playing Thiel CS 1.6, where one sounded boomy and the other didn't lead me to do some thinking about room dynamics and speaker placement.

You might recall that after I replaced the blown tweeters in my Marantz speakers with Scanspeak, I believed that the treble was too strong, the base was too boomy, and the midrange was drowned out. Since then the tweezers seem to have mellowed. Am I hearing this right?

After experiencing what happened to the Thiels I experimented with a different placement of my Marantz speakers, and to my astonishment the boomy sound disappeared! Additionally with the mellowed tweeters, the balance of highs, mids, and lows sounds really good. Now knowing a little bit about what a soundstage should sound like, there is decent clarity to my old Marantz that I don't recall hearing before. Additionally it produces sub lows that I haven't heard in any of the speakers that I've tested under $4000.

The biggest problem that I have is that the speakers don't really fit in the room where I now have them. I guess this is why I've never tried this placement before. How can the placement of the speakers have such a profound impact on thier sound?

poppachubby
06-22-2010, 07:34 PM
How can the placement of the speakers have such a profound impact on thier sound?


http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=29&pagestring=Room+Setup+4


Have a look at what Cardas says. I use the golden cuboid...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4716401311_39685447fa.jpg

koven
06-23-2010, 07:09 PM
He seemed sincere, and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I'll go with the former : (

dont be naive, he's a salesman

and i agree with the others, he's completely clueless if he actually said that

anyway, the sierra-1 is a great value from what i've read, haven't heard them though

its hard to recommend speakers without knowing your preferences.. what type of music do you listen to? do you prefer a rich/warm/lush sound with rolled off highs or a more accurate/forward/lively sound with tight bass? etc

ctctc
06-24-2010, 05:36 AM
its hard to recommend speakers without knowing your preferences.. what type of music do you listen to?

Classical orchestral music, quintets, blues, jazz, avant-garde, rock, fusion, hard rock, acid rock, heavy metal... and a little country pickin thrown in there.


do you prefer a rich/warm/lush sound with rolled off highs or a more accurate/forward/lively sound with tight bass? etc

Based upon my understanding of your description I would say that the former would sound better playing classical through avant-garde, and the latter would sound better playing rock and beyond. If speakers tend to favor one or the other, then I would prefer the latter.

ctctc
06-24-2010, 05:49 AM
Have a look at what Cardas says. I use the golden cuboid...

Very interesting. It seems to me that this would work best in a dedicated listening room. How forgiving is this? For example your picture with your mission speakers shows them too close to the wall which, according to his diagram, should equal the distance between the speakers. My listening room is filled with a fireplace, windows, couches, tables, etc.

Poultrygeist
06-28-2010, 02:11 AM
These OB Tektons would be my recommendation for a pair of stand mounted highly efficient speakers. Just read the reviews. You could add a Tekton sub and still be within your price range. I am saddened that most posters on this board are so preconditioned by mainstream audio hype they will never experience the magic of crossover-less full range drivers.



http://www.tektondesign.com/ob45.htm

poppachubby
06-28-2010, 02:14 AM
Very interesting. It seems to me that this would work best in a dedicated listening room. How forgiving is this? For example your picture with your mission speakers shows them too close to the wall which, according to his diagram, should equal the distance between the speakers. My listening room is filled with a fireplace, windows, couches, tables, etc.

Of course there are compromises involved, I have a wife and children. So long as the basics are there you will benefit, as opposed to just haplessly placing things around the room. It's a good starting point.

ctctc
06-28-2010, 07:51 AM
These OB Tektons would be my recommendation for a pair of stand mounted highly efficient speakers. Just read the reviews. You could add a Tekton sub and still be within your price range.

Yes, I have been also referred to the Tekton 8.1t and the Kats meow. It appears that he tweeter option can be added to the OB 4.5. Have you auditioned any of these?

ctctc
06-28-2010, 08:26 AM
I auditioned a $3000 pair of Q speakers over the weekend containing ambient recovery circuitry, D'Appolito configuration, Scanspeak liquid cooled dual chamber tweeter, Two 5.25 inch dual voice-coil mid/bass drivers with cast frames and titanium/polypropelene cones, Internally wiring is variable thickness solid core 99.9997 pure copper cyrogenically treated, Non Parallel cabinet sides, Frequency response 45-30kHz +/- 3db, 90 db efficiency, 8 ohm impedence, and 20" h x 8"w x 14" deep,

I placed them on stands about 12 inches away from the wall, and next to my floorstanding wall-hugging Marantz. I used the JoLida JX 10 integrated amp, 12ga stranded copper speaker wire, and a PS3 to play the CDs.

I switched the speaker leads between the two sets of speakers numerous times comparing different artists and their songs.

I found that the Q were absolutely beautiful in appearance. They exhibited about 5% better clarity in all frequencies, and had about the same soundstage definition as the Marantz. I liked them very much. However they were about 20% quieter and lacked the sub lows of the Marantz.

Does anyone find that thier ear becomes accustomed to a particular set of speakers, and when auditioning a new set of speakers for a short amount of time you are unable to fully appreciate the differences?

Do you find that a particular amplifier may bring out the best qualities of one set of speakers while masking or ignoring the best qualities of another set of speakers?

Feanor
06-28-2010, 09:04 AM
...
Does anyone find that thier ear becomes accustomed to a particular set of speakers, and when auditioning a new set of speakers for a short amount of time you are unable to fully appreciate the differences?

Do you find that a particular amplifier may bring out the best qualities of one set of speakers while masking or ignoring the best qualities of another set of speakers?
Define a "short amount of time". If your thinking of 10 minutes, then yes: for me a new speaker can sound, let's say, "confusing".

On the other hand, for me with 35+ years of auditioning speakers, an hour or two of A-B'ing will conclusively confirm the relative merits of a couple of different speakers -- at least in a given location with given associated equipment: this is why it is far preferable to listen in you own listening room.

Poultrygeist
06-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Of all his speakers Eric Alexander is partial to the 4.5. I have a pair but the OB version takes it to another level. The Fostex 4.5's are some of the most revealing drivers on the planet.

ctctc
06-29-2010, 02:14 PM
Upon hearing my review of the Q speaker audition on my low powered tube amp the local shop owner invited me to bring my Marantz speakers in for a side-by-side comparison with the Q using an integrated Ayon amp and an Ayon CD player in his dedicated listening room.

Upon my arrival he said that his amplifier was acting up and indeed while he was re-biasing it one channel went completely dead.

So he brought out a JoLida 3000D Preamp and a pair of 200W JoLida mono blocks, hooked them up to his CD player and my speakers. When he turned them on the sound was terribly distorted with all sorts of hisses and pops. He quickly turned it off.

He then switched out the JoLida mono blocks with a Macormak amp, turned it on [without any music playing] and one of my woofers was immediately sucked in, he quickly turned the amp off. Unfortunately the woofer stayed sucked in. He took the speaker out of the cabinet and pushed it from behind to release it. As he manually moved the cone in and out we could hear a scraping sound. He said that the coil was oxidized and that he would have to take the speaker apart and sand something inside to free up the coil.

To say the least I am concerned. If this man had not lent me thousands of dollars worth of audio equipment without any collateral to audition in my home, I would be downright worried. Can any of you lend some insight as to what you think happened and if my speaker can be returned to its normal acoustic ability?

poppachubby
06-29-2010, 08:10 PM
The voice coil is rubbing against the magnet by the sounds of it. Do not use the speaker. It may just need to be centered in which case you'll need a pair of new surrounds. Not sure why he thinks it's oxidized, however I am not a speaker expert.

Do yourself a favour. PM Kexodusc who is a resident speaker expert. Introduce yourself and explain the issue. He can make sense of it and tell you how to proceed. Here's his page...

http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?u=230587

Again, don't use the speaker because you may cause fatal damage to the voice coil. I hate to say it but these guys you are dealing with sound like some real yokals. I suppose auditioning gear with no deposit is reason enough to suffer them.

ctctc
07-01-2010, 04:21 PM
Do yourself a favour. PM Kexodusc who is a resident speaker expert. Introduce yourself and explain the issue. He can make sense of it and tell you how to proceed. Here's his page...

thanks, I e-mailed him yesterday as you suggested and am awaiting a response.

On the plus side of things, I visited my local hi-fi shop today and the proprietor said that he found that the lacquer in the speaker coil had bubbled. He said that he removed the bubbles and added a layer of glue.

We auditioned Marantz speakers on an Ayon Orion integrated amp in his listening room and they sounded spectacular! All frequencies were loud and clear, balanced, and the sub lows were strong and clear. The soundstage was well-developed and exhibited a richness that I had never heard before in them.

I asked him why they didn't sound that good in my home. I speculated that the biggest difference was my 10W JoLida versus his Ayon set to 35W. He said that he thought that that might account for about 10% of the difference, but that the PS3 as a CD player, it's connecting wire, the amp and PS3 power cords, my surge protecting power strip, and my speaker wire cables all have an effect on the sound.

The Marantz speakers don't fit in my living/listening room. I would have to compromise on furniture arrangement in order to "jam them in". But faced with the prospect of having to spend $3000+ on a set of speakers to get comparable sound, what else can I do... I guess I'll move the furniture.

ctctc
07-01-2010, 04:24 PM
While my hi-fi guy was fixing my woofer, he lent me a pair of Audes 111.1 speakers to audition in my home.

With the highs were reserved, the mids were strong, the lows were moderate, and there were of course no sub lows. The soundstage seemed well developed for the frequencies represented, and was clear. I liked the sound of the speakers, although they were much quieter than my Marantz.