Magnepan MMG with ICEPower amplifiers

[krishna]

Hi everybody:

This is my first post on this forum. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me about using an ICEpower amplifier (EAR 202) with the Magnepan MMG speakers.

My EAR 202 amplifier is rated to 290 W RMS into 4 ohms. I am currently using it with ten year old Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers.

I play my music off my home PC using a Squeezebox 3 as a transport and a Benchmark DAC1 that also serves as a preamp.

I also have a DIY sub assembled from a Parts Express design. It works well with my Dynaudio speakers. The lowpass frequency is set to 50 Hz.

My listening tastes tend towards soft music and I am not particularly worried about heavy bass. Musicality and detail are more important.

Thanks!

[markw]

It'll work but I think it's a bit of overkill for the MMG's. IIRC, they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels. That amp would be great for 1.6's, though.

[krishna]

Thanks, Markw! I forgot to mention that I listen to music at low to medium volume levels - besides which I live in an apartment block in Singapore. I am unlikely to drive the MMGs at very high volume.

Mahesh

[blackraven]

Maggies like lots of clean, high current power. That amp should be great, but I agree with Mark, MMG's do have their limits when played very loud. Music just becomes way more dynamic with Maggies as you go up in current and power although this is probably more of a function of the amp being a better amp with better dampening, headroom and being able to deliver the goods on demand.

[Feanor]

It'll work but I think it's a bit of overkill for the MMG's. IIRC, they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels. That amp would be great for 1.6's, though.
This is right on. The MMGs just don't have the radiating area to produce dynamic bass -- and it doesn't matter the power you supply. I drove my MMGs with 360 wpc and it didn't help much, i.e. the speakers played loud but sounded compressed.

The solution with MMGs isn't more amp power, it's using a sub to carry all the sound above a fairly high crossover point, say 80 Hz. Note that you need both a low-pass filter to feed the sub, and a high-pass filter feeding the MMGs to exclude the bass.

[krishna]

The local Magnepan distributor here has very kindly agreed to let me connect my ICE power amp and Benchmark DAC to a pair of 1.6 speakers in their showroom to get a sense of how the MMGs might sound. I'm intending to do that sometime this week. Since the MMGs are only sold over the Internet, they don't carry them. The MMGs seem to have characteristics similar to my Dynaudios - 4 ohms impedance and 87 dB sensitivity.

Will provide some feedback on how the tests go. Thanks!

[markw]

The MMGs seem to have characteristics similar to my Dynaudios - 4 ohms impedance and 87 dB sensitivity.The same can be said about the 1.6's, or the new 1.7's would assume..

Having owned both, I can say,the 1.x's are, without a doubt, worth the price difference ...if you have the room to position them properly.

[jrhymeammo]

they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels.
I agree. MMG should not be driven hard.
You can always try to integrate a sub to MMG, but I was frusted with the result to say the least. But it's not all bad news, I find MMG to have plenty of bass in my smallist listening room (14~18' x 16~22").

From what I understand, MMGs show easy load on amplifers and the EAR202 should work just fine. But, 1.6QR may be a different story. The EAR202's minimum load impedance is rated at 3 ohm so I'm not sure if 1.XQR will be a good fit. But you can only try out the combination to find out.

[jrhymeammo]

Add:

I have used so-called ICEamp on a pair of 1.6QR, and never liked to result.
But as stated above, I do not have a very large room.
Matching the size of speakers(especially a planar type) to the room size maybe more important than matching amps.

[krishna]

Thank you all for your comments. I went to the Magnepan dealer today and connected my ICEpower amp and Benchmark DAC to the 1.6 speakers. I had taken along a selection of music on a CD-R and played the tracks using a Naim CD player (used just as a transport). I spent over an hour listening to my music.

The session was really interesting. Everything sounded much more musical and 'real' than it does through my Dynaudio Audience 50s. I was also able to hear low level detail on familiar tracks that has previously been indistinct. The centre image was solid across all the tracks.

But I also discovered that on a few tracks (Indian film music from the mid nineties) all the instruments seemed bunched together at the centre. Other tracks that most of you may have heard ('Tears in heaven' by Eric Clapton and a track called 'Bali Run' by Fourplay) were brilliant. Also, Indian film tracks of more recent vintage sounded brilliant. I guess the point is that if a track is poorly engineered, you notice it immediately.

At my preferred (moderate) listening levels, the ICEpower amp didn't have a problem driving the 1.6 speakers. I assume that it will be capable of driving the MMGs too. I'm not very fussy about bass and felt that the bass output of the 1.6 speakers was quite adequate. Incidentally, the speakers were on their stock stands, with the panels vertical and without any toe-in.

I'm pretty much convinced that MMGs would be a good investment, given my limited budget and the fact that the 1.6 would be far too big in my living room. The only downside is the cost of shipping the MMGs halfway around the world - USD 350! This is quite steep, given that the speakers themselves cost only USD 600. C'est la vie!

I've also been reading about various ways of getting the MMGs to sound even better, by changing the angle of tilt, raising them off the floor by six inches or so, upgrading the crossover and so on. At this point, I can't afford Mye stands or the Peter Gunn mods. Fortunately, a dear friend and classmate has been a hi-fi nut for as long as I can remember (we were at university together 40 years ago). He's promised to come over and help. Any suggestions in this area would be very welcome - thanks in advance.

[Dawnrazor]

Thank you all for your comments. I went to the Magnepan dealer today and connected my ICEpower amp and Benchmark DAC to the 1.6 speakers. I had taken along a selection of music on a CD-R and played the tracks using a Naim CD player (used just as a transport). I spent over an hour listening to my music.

The session was really interesting. Everything sounded much more musical and 'real' than it does through my Dynaudio Audience 50s. I was also able to hear low level detail on familiar tracks that has previously been indistinct. The centre image was solid across all the tracks.

But I also discovered that on a few tracks (Indian film music from the mid nineties) all the instruments seemed bunched together at the centre. Other tracks that most of you may have heard ('Tears in heaven' by Eric Clapton and a track called 'Bali Run' by Fourplay) were brilliant. Also, Indian film tracks of more recent vintage sounded brilliant. I guess the point is that if a track is poorly engineered, you notice it immediately.

At my preferred (moderate) listening levels, the ICEpower amp didn't have a problem driving the 1.6 speakers. I assume that it will be capable of driving the MMGs too. I'm not very fussy about bass and felt that the bass output of the 1.6 speakers was quite adequate. Incidentally, the speakers were on their stock stands, with the panels vertical and without any toe-in.

I'm pretty much convinced that MMGs would be a good investment, given my limited budget and the fact that the 1.6 would be far too big in my living room. The only downside is the cost of shipping the MMGs halfway around the world - USD 350! This is quite steep, given that the speakers themselves cost only USD 600. C'est la vie!

I've also been reading about various ways of getting the MMGs to sound even better, by changing the angle of tilt, raising them off the floor by six inches or so, upgrading the crossover and so on. At this point, I can't afford Mye stands or the Peter Gunn mods. Fortunately, a dear friend and classmate has been a hi-fi nut for as long as I can remember (we were at university together 40 years ago). He's promised to come over and help. Any suggestions in this area would be very welcome - thanks in advance.


One option is to see if your dealer can get you some MG12s...the model between the mmgs and the 1.6s. Perhaps that will end up cheaper than the mmgs direct.

SImple things to do :get them vertical.

Then start with the tweeter inside and slowly move them apart till you find there is no center image (after you break them in of course). Line up the tweeters and mark their position some how. This is the max distance the tweeters can be. Now if your room is small, then you can do this with the tweeters outboard...the thing alot of people miss is that it is the tweeter distance that is key not whether they are inside or outside.

If you have short runs, say 8ft or shorter, try some 24g magnet wire as speaker cables. Super cheap and way better than most store bought cables. Dress them up in some techflex or pvc tubes.

Another simple and cheap tweak, but very impactful is to "Razor" them as the recent post I did here explains. THis may be the best one of all.

ALso you can try some rf chokes in series with the tweeter...J Miller 5502 or 5522 should do it and are very inexpensive.

D

[krishna]

Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.

[Feanor]

Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.
Here is a picture of my former MMGs raised perpendicular to the floor about 8-9". I made these stands myself out of scrap 3/4" MDF. They are bolted directly in place of the stock metal "L" stands.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/199052MMG_on_stand.jpg

[Dawnrazor]

Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.

Hey K,

Feanors stands are nice and easy. Here are a few more with the 1st one being the easiest because you should be able to buy the parts at a hardware store since they are pretty common:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/richardh.html
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/BrandonB/
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/RodH/

The key is to get the MIDDLE of the panel to be at ear height.

There will be some trade off as you raise them you may lose a bit of bass which you could get back if you had a stand that had a solid base around the speakers, kind of like the floor just raised...like if your stand had a cutting board the maggies sat on.

You may not be bothered by this as the imaging and sound will be better in most cases.

HTH.

[JoeE SP9]

I'll add this again. Any single ended Maggy will sound better listening to it from the rear. It's the ultimate cheap tweak. FREE!! If you don't like the results turn the speakers around and keep going. You get better mid range and treble dispersion and clarity when the sound doesn't have to go through a slotted panel with magnets on it.

Try it, you guys!!! You've got nothing to loose.

[Dawnrazor]

I'll add this again. Any single ended Maggy will sound better listening to it from the rear. It's the ultimate cheap tweak. FREE!! If you don't like the results turn the speakers around and keep going. You get better mid range and treble dispersion and clarity when the sound doesn't have to go through a slotted panel with magnets on it.

Try it, you guys!!! You've got nothing to loose.

Hey Joe,

Thanks for explaining things. I agree with you in that it is free and easy to do and worth the effort!

But I think things are different these days. My mmgs for one came with the MYLAR on the front and I think all the current single ended ones do too...so you are really saying to leave them alone??

FWIW I have listened both ways and it is a long long story and probably one that doesnt relate since I ditched a "normal" set up like 10 years ago. FOr the longest time though I had listened to the pole pieces and enjoyed that (and thought that was what you originally were saying). Originally that is how mags were designed not with the mylar in the front. HT changed them IMHO. Any how I use the ROOZE setup now and suppose I am listening to the mylar now.

Do note that if you do turn the speaker around, you should swap your cables +, and - connections on BOTH speakers to adjust for the difference in polarity when listening to the back wave vs. the front wave. Or engage a polarity switch if your pre or cdp has one.

[krishna]

Thanks for all your suggestions! I will figure out a way to make replacement stands along the lines you have suggested. JoeE's tweak should be easy to check out too. By the way, do Magnepan give you a set of dimensioned drawings if you ask nicely, or do I just wait until the speakers get here and measure them myself?

When people on this forum talk about 'dealing with the first reflection from the side wall' what exactly do they imply? Is this

(A) a point on the side wall that's midway between the speaker's position and the listening position, i.e. where the incident and reflected waves travel the same distance, or

(B) is it a point where these distances may be unequal?

My living room is T-shaped, roughly 13 feet wide x 12 feet high x 30 feet long with a dining space opening out on one side around 10 feet from the front wall. I have placed my Audience 50s using the Cardas rule, and they're around 5.5 feet from the front wall.

In this position, if A above is true, there is no first reflection from one of the side walls because there is no wall at all. I have a three-seater couch placed along the other side wall and I guess it would absorb the first reflection no matter whether A or B is true. But because the MMGs are taller than my current speakers, I may have to experiment with some additional absorbing material for them.

Thanks for all your advice. I will be ordering the MMGs next week. I guess the fun starts when they arrive!

[krishna]

Oh I forgot to ask in my earlier post - what is the Rooze setup?

[JoeE SP9]

Dawnrazor:
If the mylar is on the front Magnepan has already latched onto that tweak. As for changing the plu and minus speaker connections; that's a question of absolute phase. You might want to try reversing the connections anyway. If you and your system is sensitive to absolute phase one way will sound better. It's possible you may hear better sound with the connections reversed. This applies to both speakers. You want them to be in phase with each other.
This means that connecting plus to plus from amp to speakers doesn't necessarily mean that you have preserved absolute phase. The number of stages in the entire amplification chain determine absolute phase. For instance some power amps have 3 stages, some 2 some have 4 or more. The number of stages in the preamp also count. Each stage reverses phase.
Preserving absolute phase is a much discussed and not always agreed on tweak. As with this and other free tweaks your ears and your system should be the judge.

krishna:
To find the first reflection points.
Sit in your listening position.
Have someone move a mirror along the side walls.
When you can see the speaker in the mirror you have found the first reflection point.
Apply sound dampening at that place on the wall, from the floor to just slightly higher than the speaker and at least as wide as the speaker.

This process also applies to the floor and ceiling. Usually there is a rug on the floor and significant others usually object to ceiling treatments.

From the description of your room you may have some difficulty getting an even left right spread. You have probably noticed this with your current speakers. Dipolar radiators (Magneplanars) will probably exhibit less of this room effect because of the figure eight radiation pattern.
The Cardas placement suggestions are a good place to start. However any dipolar speaker will need to be fine tuned for position. Let your ears be the judge.

[krishna]

Yes, my room is slightly 'difficult' because it isn't rectangular. But I get a decent sound stage with my Dynaudios. One advantage is that the ceiling has a stippled finish created using plaster of Paris, so it may well be acting as an effective diffuser.

I'll try to use a mirror to locate the first reflection point on the left wall and then see if I can use some kind of wall hanging to reduce the reflection.

The other thing I should mention is that my front wall isn't really a wall at all. I have sliding (glass!) French windows leading to a small enclosed verandah. I usually keep the French windows closed. But after reading one post on this forum that suggested that the front wall exactly midway between the speakers should be treated with sound absorbing or diffusing material, I decided just as an experiment to open them by about two feet. There is definitely a difference to the sound quality - the bass is better and the image seems better too. I must experiment some more...

[Dawnrazor]

Dawnrazor:
If the mylar is on the front Magnepan has already latched onto that tweak. As for changing the plu and minus speaker connections; that's a question of absolute phase. You might want to try reversing the connections anyway. If you and your system is sensitive to absolute phase one way will sound better. It's possible you may hear better sound with the connections reversed. This applies to both speakers. You want them to be in phase with each other.
This means that connecting plus to plus from amp to speakers doesn't necessarily mean that you have preserved absolute phase. The number of stages in the entire amplification chain determine absolute phase. For instance some power amps have 3 stages, some 2 some have 4 or more. The number of stages in the preamp also count. Each stage reverses phase.
Preserving absolute phase is a much discussed and not always agreed on tweak. As with this and other free tweaks your ears and your system should be the judge.



Sorry Joe, I wasnt clear. I wasnt actually saying to try absolute phase AS A TWEAK. Merely that if one was going to listen to the other side of the speaker TO RULE OUT Absolute Phase in the listening test, one should swap the speaker connections on both speakers. Otherwise any conclusion might be more a conclusion about absolute phase rather than listening to the mylar or not.

And I am betting that if he gets them, Krishna's mmgs will be different from mine in that his will have the 1st/ 1st config for the crossover and not the 2nd/1st config of the first version of the mags. On the first version the tweet is out of phase with the bass panel and this makes it nearly impossible to hear absolute phase differences, but not so on the 2nd one.

[krishna]

When he gets them, Dawnrazor, not if! I'm speaking to Magnepan to sort out some shipping issues today...

If there are so many permutations and combinations of the crossovers, how does anyone figure out what version he's got? Do they ship a set of schematics with the MMGs?

[Dawnrazor]

When he gets them, Dawnrazor, not if! I'm speaking to Magnepan to sort out some shipping issues today...

If there are so many permutations and combinations of the crossovers, how does anyone figure out what version he's got? Do they ship a set of schematics with the MMGs?


Awesome!!!! You will enjoy them!

There are only 2 versions of the mmgs crossover. They no longer make the 1st version, so it is pretty simple.

Youll get the 1st order/ 1st order version:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/MMG%20XO%20Diag.gif

[krishna]

OK, so I ordered and paid for the MMGs today. They are apparently built to order, so it will take around two weeks for them to be shipped. I'm sure they will be worth the wait. Watch this space. By the way, does anybody here have any experience of whether there were problems / damage in transit caused by international shipping of MMGs?

Thanks for the schematic of the crossover Dawnrazor. I'll have tons of questions once the speakers actually get here. But what I want to do reasonably quickly is to get sturdier stands fabricated. Where can I get hold of mechanical drawings of the MMGs - any ideas?

[JoeE SP9]

Sorry Joe, I wasnt clear. I wasnt actually saying to try absolute phase AS A TWEAK. Merely that if one was going to listen to the other side of the speaker TO RULE OUT Absolute Phase in the listening test, one should swap the speaker connections on both speakers. Otherwise any conclusion might be more a conclusion about absolute phase rather than listening to the mylar or not.

And I am betting that if he gets them, Krishna's mmgs will be different from mine in that his will have the 1st/ 1st config for the crossover and not the 2nd/1st config of the first version of the mags. On the first version the tweet is out of phase with the bass panel and this makes it nearly impossible to hear absolute phase differences, but not so on the 2nd one.

I agree about ruling out absolute phase when trying different sides of Maggys. However absolute phase is usually very difficult to hear while the difference between the sides on Maggys is very easy to hear.
After the speakers are dialed in with some good associated gear then may be the time to listen for absolute phase. As I said already, it's very difficult to hear and most recordings especially heavily processed studio recordings will show little or no (usually none) audible difference.

[krishna]

A quick question regarding breaking in new MMGs: Is there a CD that generates a broad range of frequencies to speed up the break-in process? I usually play my music from my PC using a Squeezebox 3 and a Benchmark DAC. It should be easy to rig up something that plays continuously. By a coincidence, my wife and I will be away for around 10 days and I wanted to make the most of that time to break in the MMGs. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

[Dawnrazor]

A quick question regarding breaking in new MMGs: Is there a CD that generates a broad range of frequencies to speed up the break-in process? I usually play my music from my PC using a Squeezebox 3 and a Benchmark DAC. It should be easy to rig up something that plays continuously. By a coincidence, my wife and I will be away for around 10 days and I wanted to make the most of that time to break in the MMGs. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

k,

I use the xlo disk:

http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL

[E-Stat]

Is there a CD that generates a broad range of frequencies to speed up the break-in process?... Any suggestions?
I would recommend Charles Hansen's IBE disk not only for initial break in, but for ongoing use as well.

IBE Test Disc (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CDAYIBE)

Some of his comments (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=IBE&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=Charles+Hansen+&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&ip=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&sortRank=Forum&forum=general)

rw

[krishna]

Hi everybody:

A quick note to let you know that my MMGs finally arrived yesterday. For now, I've set them up exactly where my Dynaudios were placed, about six feet from the front wall, using the Cardas formula. They accept banana plugs, so I'm using my old speaker cables.

Even out of the box, they sounded fantastic. I didn't read the (sketchy!) manual that came with them and assumed that serial number NNNN-1 was to be set up as the left speaker. So when I started to listen to them, I had the woofers on the inside and the tweeters on the outside. Eventually I tried the 'recommended' setup as well. I found that I preferred the 'wrong' setup because voices sounded marginally more natural that way.

One minor hassle is that the buckle that is used to change the angle of tilt of the speakers is not compatible with polished wooden flooring. But I'll have my stands made in a couple of weeks, so the problem is only temporary.

I will provide more feedback as I go along.

[Dawnrazor]

Hi everybody:

A quick note to let you know that my MMGs finally arrived yesterday. For now, I've set them up exactly where my Dynaudios were placed, about six feet from the front wall, using the Cardas formula. They accept banana plugs, so I'm using my old speaker cables.

Even out of the box, they sounded fantastic. I didn't read the (sketchy!) manual that came with them and assumed that serial number NNNN-1 was to be set up as the left speaker. So when I started to listen to them, I had the woofers on the inside and the tweeters on the outside. Eventually I tried the 'recommended' setup as well. I found that I preferred the 'wrong' setup because voices sounded marginally more natural that way.

One minor hassle is that the buckle that is used to change the angle of tilt of the speakers is not compatible with polished wooden flooring. But I'll have my stands made in a couple of weeks, so the problem is only temporary.

I will provide more feedback as I go along.


Awesome you got them so soon.

As I read your post, you just put them in the same spot as the dynaudios????

If so try the cardas formula for dipoles:
http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php?type=dipole

Also there is really no right or wrong about the tweeters in or out. What it really comes down to most is the distance BETWEEN the tweeters. Most people never adjust for that, and mostly what happens when you swap them in or out, is you change the tweeter distances!

FWIW the Cardas setup is a good start, but I always thought it put the speakers far too close together and created a small soundstage. YMMV but if you have the space, try getting them further apart until there is a whole in the middle effect and then bring them closer till you get a strong center image. THis will maximize soundstage width. YOu might indeed like them closer together, but it is nice to know what options you have too. FWIW, mine are about 12 ft apart...

[krishna]

Dawnrazor:

With a room width of 13 feet and a ceiling height of 12 feet, the Cardas formula for dipoles gives me 3.59 feet from the side walls (no problem) and 7.42 feet from the front wall (oh, oh). Using the standard Cardas formula, I have them around 5.5 feet from the front wall which is about as far in as I can place them for regular use. I will check the performance using the other formula, just to see how they sound.

I have been trying to move the speakers slightly, towards or away from the side walls, so that the centres of either the speakers, the woofer section or the tweeter section are at the distance recommended by Cardas. The best results seem to be when the centres of the speakers are at this distance. More experiments are needed.

There is a slight muffled quality (is this what is described as 'chestiness') to male voices. Will this reduce with further break in or do I need to do something to eliminate it?

[Dawnrazor]

Hey K,

The trick is to keep trying. Eventually you will find the best balance of performance and room practicality.

It has been over 10 years since I heard a stock mmg...so i THINK you just need to let them break in and that chestiness may disappear. I certainly dont notice what you are describing.

And maybe you might want to break them in before you go to the trouble of finding the right spot for them. Things might be different when they are broken in.

Those room impractical placements might explain why I ditched the Cardas setup. That and I had subs, and the Cardas really nails the bass though IMHO to the detriment of imaging, or at least soundstage width. I can give up some bass.

Anyhow, I am soooo excited for you! Getting them vertical should help too, especially with the image height.

[Feanor]

Awesome you got them so soon.

As I read your post, you just put them in the same spot as the dynaudios????

If so try the cardas formula for dipoles:
http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php?type=dipole

Also there is really no right or wrong about the tweeters in or out. What it really comes down to most is the distance BETWEEN the tweeters. Most people never adjust for that, and mostly what happens when you swap them in or out, is you change the tweeter distances!

FWIW the Cardas setup is a good start, but I always thought it put the speakers far too close together and created a small soundstage. YMMV but if you have the space, try getting them further apart until there is a whole in the middle effect and then bring them closer till you get a strong center image. THis will maximize soundstage width. YOu might indeed like them closer together, but it is nice to know what options you have too. FWIW, mine are about 12 ft apart...
The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the side walls, (too close together), to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition. BTW, I listen with my MG 1.6 tweeters on the outside to maximize stereo separation; this also happens to be Magnpan's recommendation.

[Dawnrazor]

The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the walls to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition. BTW, I listen with my MG 1.6 tweeters on the outside to maximize stereo separation; this also happens to be Magnpan's recommendation.

I agree with you about the Cardas setup Feanor.

It never was realistic in my room either.

I still say that the tweeter distance is what is important. Meaning that if you put your tweets on the inside BUT put them in the same place as they are now on the outside, you would probably like that just the same or even better as the sound stage would be a bit wider.

Magnepan recommends the outside IMHO because it is the easiest way to get the widest tweeter separation from their speakers in a given room. But will it be better than inside with the tweeters in the same place? Perhaps not if your room can handle it.

But no one ever takes tweeter distance into account. They just put the speakers in the same place and all that does mostly is change the tweeter separation dramatically. And fwiw, if you start setting them up with things on the outside you will always prefer them outside. If you set them up on the inside, you will always prefer them on the inside....because invariably you will get the tweeters to the right separation. Any change will be "wrong"....

I tried to upload a pict and well it shows in the box, it doesnt seem to be in the post. Any tips?

[E-Stat]

The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the walls to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition.
It really is all about the room. With my 25x16 room, I use greater distances from side and back walls alike than the Cardas recommendations (which ignore room length). After much experimentation and measuring, I found that roughly using the "Thirds Rule" for both worked best. Admittedly, there is no TV screen in the middle to dictate otherwise.

rw

[Feanor]

I agree with you about the Cardas setup Feanor.

It never was realistic in my room either.

I still say that the tweeter distance is what is important. Meaning that if you put your tweets on the inside BUT put them in the same place as they are now on the outside, you would probably like that just the same or even better as the sound stage would be a bit wider.

Magnepan recommends the outside IMHO because it is the easiest way to get the widest tweeter separation from their speakers in a given room. But will it be better than inside with the tweeters in the same place? Perhaps not if your room can handle it.

But no one ever takes tweeter distance into account. They just put the speakers in the same place and all that does mostly is change the tweeter separation dramatically. And fwiw, if you start setting them up with things on the outside you will always prefer them outside. If you set them up on the inside, you will always prefer them on the inside....because invariably you will get the tweeters to the right separation. Any change will be "wrong"....

I tried to upload a pict and well it shows in the box, it doesnt seem to be in the post. Any tips?
I see your pic OK, DR.

Your conclusion might well be correct that the tweeter on the inside would yield a wider soundstage. However in my case it would put the speakers too close to the side walls which is the primary reason I put the tweeters on the inside instead; (Magnepan's recommendation is a secondary factor).

[Dawnrazor]

I see your pic OK, DR.

Your conclusion might well be correct that the tweeter on the inside would yield a wider soundstage. However in my case it would put the speakers too close to the side walls which is the primary reason I put the tweeters on the inside instead; (Magnepan's recommendation is a secondary factor).

I think you mean OUTSIDE.

That config gives the greatest tweeter distance with the smallest left to right speaker distance. IMHO that is why magnepan makes that rec...mostly so the speakers are not too close to the side walls as it would be in your case.

And E-stat I agree. Every room is a bit different so that I why I am encouraging Krishna to experiment.

I have a sideways setup that morphed into a bizarre "Rooze" setup...sort of nearfield with the inside edges of the speakers pointing to me.: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=mug&n=77917&highlight=rooze

This post has a diagram:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=mug&n=77935&highlight=rooze

I Know, I know....

[krishna]

This whole discussion on MMG placement is really interesting. I will try out all your suggestions as I go along, using the Cardas formulae as a starting point. I have a question though: when you talk about distances from the side wall, are you talking about the geometric centre of the speaker, the centre of the woofer or the centre of the tweeter? This question never arose with my old Dynaudios, because the tweeters and woofers were aligned in the vertical plane.

By the way, I discovered that my stock MMG stands were a little wobbly and used aluminium washers to ensure the screws were tight. It made an audible difference.

[Dawnrazor]

Hey K,

I think most maggie owner just measure to the side of the speaker closest to the sidewall. maybe others will chime in if they do it differently, but it seems easier and more accurate to measure to the side of the speaker.

And looks like the stock stands still blow. That little thing they use to raise the speaker a bit is pretty lame. Now my see why Mye stands and diy stands arise.

The MMGs are an amazing speaker and I wouldnt be surprised if you can get them to sound great in a couple of different configurations.

Try getting them 100% vertical and see what that does. As for placement, just take it slow and realize that most mags take a while to find the right spot in the room.

[Dawnrazor]

. I have a question though: when you talk about distances from the side wall, are you talking about the geometric centre of the speaker, the centre of the woofer or the centre of the tweeter? .

Hey, the Cardas formula is supposed to be the middle of the woofer...My previous reply was just stating how most uses probably measure to the sidewalls.

HOw is it going?

[krishna]

DR:

I have been trying to get some stands fabricated here with the help of a friend. Will upload a picture shortly. I am also experimenting with the placement (with the tweeter on the inside and outside). I will summarize my subjective impressions in my next post - need to listen to more tracks to be able to make an assessment.

It occurred to me that if I could straighten out the standard feet that come with the MMGs so that the angle is 90 degrees, I could mount the speaker panels on a flat wooden base and weigh the base down with a granite slab. That would make for an elegant speaker stand that is also very stable. Any comments?

[Dawnrazor]

K,

YOu can get 90 degree shelving brackets that are essentially a right triangle and that would be an easy way to do what you are talking about.

Here is an EXAMPLE in wood, but you could use metal as well:

http://www.wall-shelf.cn/shelf-brackets-4.htm

As for the tweets in or out, the real answer is that usually you will prefer the orientation you start with. It is mostly about the tweeter distances. If you start one way, you will eventually find the ideal distance. When you switch and if you just put the speaker back in the same place but with the tweets in a different orientation, all you are really doing is adjusting the tweets by about 1 1/2ft in the case of the mmgs.

If you start with the tweets inside, putting them outside will often collapse the center image...if you start with them outside, putting them inside will squash the soundstage.

Now if you swap them but adjust for tweeter position...putting the tweeters in the same place when outside and inside, the inside position will give a slightly larger soundstage, but often outside is more practical as it yeild the largest tweeter distance with the smallest SPEAKER distance.

[krishna]

Here is a picture of the stand that a friend helped me fabricate for the MMGs. The wooden brackets are from Ikea and a shelf was cut to the size needed for the base. I got granite slabs to provide more weight and improve stability. The original metal feet are shown for comparison. I will be away in India for the next couple of weeks. More after I return...

[Dawnrazor]

Here is a picture of the stand that a friend helped me fabricate for the MMGs. The wooden brackets are from Ikea and a shelf was cut to the size needed for the base. I got granite slabs to provide more weight and improve stability. The original metal feet are shown for comparison. I will be away in India for the next couple of weeks. More after I return...

Looks good K,

My only concern is that your head should be in the vertical middle of the panel. If they are angled back as they are stock, that creates an angle where your head is likely to be in the middle of the panel, even if it is higher than the middle of the panel.

When you get them vertical it is likely that the middle will be below your head...so you should raise them up as much as needed to make sure you are in the middle.

Long story, but I had a low low couch that I got rid of when I moved. The speakers never sounded good at the new place, no matter what I did. It just sounded thin and wrong.

One day I was sitting on the floor and suddenly the sound was the glorious sound I had remembered. Sure enough, the new listening chair was much higher than the old couch and I was too high above the middle of the panel.

Raising the speaker fixed it.

[Feanor]

Looks good K,

My only concern is that your head should be in the vertical middle of the panel. If they are angled back as they are stock, that creates an angle where your head is likely to be in the middle of the panel, even if it is higher than the middle of the panel.

When you get them vertical it is likely that the middle will be below your head...so you should raise them up as much as needed to make sure you are in the middle.

...
Or maybe, to express it differently, your head (ears) ought to be in the "middle", i.e. equi-distant from the top and bottom of the panels. This can be adjusted by angling the panel up or down depending on you listening position. Thus with larger Magneplanars, it might be necessary to tilt the speaker slightly down, i.e. forward.

Tilting forward a bit is, I believe, permitted by the likes of the Mye stands. In my case I just put wood shims under the back of the standard MG 1.6 stands to achieve a slight forward tilt. To me the sound is thus improved maybe a tiny amount, or it could be just my imagination ... but then I'm notoriously deaf so try it for yourself.

[Dawnrazor]

Hey Feanor,

That is an excellent point. Tilt them forward or back or adjust their height so if a line was drawn from their centers it would hit your head.

FWIW, my centers are 43" off the ground in my new speaker stands.

My head is about 41" when sitting so it is pretty close the center. I might need to tilt them forward or raise the seat a bit, but I think there is a RANGE and I should be comfortably in that range though tilting might be the easiest recourse.

And at least on my mmgs, the middle of the DRIVER is NOT the middle of the PANEL. They are about an inch off. The middle of the driver is 25" from the bottom of the panel, and the middle of the panel is 24" from the bottom.

[justdhruv]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.

[JoeE SP9]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.

No and yes. Maggy's are extremely revealing of amps and source. You will hear any shortcomings in your gear. They like lots of Watts. You can pair them with any amp.

[E-Stat]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.
They are forgiving of the load in that you can use tube amps that would not be a good match for many box speakers. Because they are revealing, I would prefer to use something other than an amp intended for PA use.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

E-Stat, all "PA" amps are not the same. I looked at the Crowns on the recommendation of someone who tried them with some Apogee ribbons and reported very good results.

If the OP is a DIY'r one of the ClassD amps like Feanor built could be a good alternative.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, all "PA" amps are not the same. I looked at the Crowns on the recommendation of someone who tried them with some Apogee ribbons and reported very good results.
Indeed, one's choice of amps that can drive their unusual 1 ohm load are rather limited. Most Apogee folks use Krell or large tube amps. To what did he compare?


If the OP is a DIY'r one of the ClassD amps like Feanor built could be a good alternative.
Unlike Feanor's unit, I'd rather not use an amp with a fan for music playback.

rw

[Feanor]

...
Unlike Feanor's unit, I'd rather not use an amp with a fan for music playback.

rw
'Stat, the amp Joe is referring to is my Class-D-Audio SDS-258 (http://classdaudio.com/index.php/products/class-d-amplifiers/sds-258.html) -- it uses no fan. And it would be outstanding, IMO, used with any Maggie, possibly excepting the MG 20.1.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/CDA_SDS-258_open_1_.jpg

[E-Stat]

'Stat, the amp Joe is referring to is myClass-D-Audio SDS-258[/IMG]
I was still referring to the class D Crown in comparison to yours. In retrospect, my wording was not very clear. It is the lack of a fan that distinguishes your D amp with the Crown D amp.

rw

[Raj J]

Hi everybody:

This is my first post on this forum. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me about using an ICEpower amplifier (EAR 202) with the Magnepan MMG speakers.

My EAR 202 amplifier is rated to 290 W RMS into 4 ohms. I am currently using it with ten year old Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers.

I play my music off my home PC using a Squeezebox 3 as a transport and a Benchmark DAC1 that also serves as a preamp.

I also have a DIY sub assembled from a Parts Express design. It works well with my Dynaudio speakers. The lowpass frequency is set to 50 Hz.

My listening tastes tend towards soft music and I am not particularly worried about heavy bass. Musicality and detail are more important.

Thanks!

good day mate,
glad to learn that you are interested in panel design loudspeakers, they will indeed open new horizons in your musical life! I noticed a very critical aspect of your message; you have clearly mentioned that you are more interested in musicality & detail, and not too fussy on bass. (you also seem to like the same sort of music I listen to as well, Eric Clapton and Fourplay, producer Bob James and his trio. back in 1995, I listened to the Fourplay group live! Bob james, Harvey Manson, Nathan East and guitarist Lee Ritenour, they were outstanding!)
with your preference of musicality & detail, have you ever considered using valve/vacuum tube amplifiers for your magneplanars?

I am not so sure about the brand of amp you're using at the moment, and anything above 100 watts is way too much for an MMG speaker. if musicality and detail is what you're after and you are on a limited budget, try these amps out you will be amazed!
1. Cayin A50T or KT88 integrated tube amp.
2. Golden Tube SE40 or 300B
3. Quad II Forty or II80 (more expensive)
4. Cary SLI80 or CAD 300SEI or the CAD 120S MKII (more expensive)
5. conrad johnson LP66S or LP70S (power amp only) c-j currently doesn't make any integrated amps. they have a older one that was fantastic called the CAV50. other c-j tube amps you may want to try out: premier 11A, MV55, MV75, MV60/SE (I'm currently using the c-j MV60SE power amp)

these are outstanding tube amps that will make maggies sign! since your preference is musicality and detail that's what tube amps are all about. try them out, you won't know what you're missing until you've listened to maggies driven with wonderful tube amplification. sorry I cannot recommend any solid state amplifiers here, because to me there are none out there that come close to the natural tones that tube amps have.

unless you were goig for some top end solid state designs that could buy you a small house, names such as Pass Labs, Mark Levinson and Jeff Rowland are excellent solid state amps, but cost a bomb! also with maggies you need to be able to keep high quality up the chain, espcially the amplification. from preamp to power amp, source and cables must all be either similar quality or similar design. no point going too cheep on amps and messing up down the chain. remember that you don't have to spend big bucks to get it right. but with panels they do require some quality equipment to sound its best.

I started out with Quad Electrostatics in the late 80's, then moved onto Apogees, Martin Logans, Magneplanars, and back to Quads. I now have their newer designs the ESL 2905's driven with all conrad johnson amplification, plus the CD palyer is also a tube design.
this is where it starts and this is where it will end - tubes rule!

cheers mate, and all the best.
Raj J (melbourne)

[JoeE SP9]

E-Stat: The person that recommended the Crowns's was using a Krell KSA-200 or an ARC VT-100. I can't comment on the Crown Class D amps. I've never heard one. IMO Crown should have continued production of the old XLS series. The new Crown XLS series amps are Class D.

I fully intend giving a Class D Audio amp a try sometime this spring.

Raj J: I'm sory, but I can't agree with your asessment of how much amplifier power MMG's need. 100 Watts or more of solid state power is IMO needed to make MMG's work properly. 60 Watts of tube power seems to be sufficient. This opinion is based on listening to 4 different MMG based systems. Two systems (Adcom GFA-555 and Accurus A-250 driven) are sub woofer augmented. A third (B&K ST-202) is considering a sub woofer. The fourth (Adcom GFA-545) system is less than two weeks old.

krishna: Your current amp should be fine.

[justdhruv]

Wanted to know. How small a sweet spot do the MMGs have?

[Feanor]

Wanted to know. How small a sweet spot do the MMGs have?
Like other Magneplanar with the approx. 2 inch quasi-ribbon tweeter-midrange, i.e. MG 12, MG 1.6, the MMG's sweet spot is quite narrow: about 2-3 feet wide. Of course, the narrowness of the sweet spot pertains only to high frequencies.

[justdhruv]

is there a reason, why the sweet spot should be this small.

I mean, a normal box speaker has almost a point source, for a tweeter, which fires forward. Where as the MMG has a line source, ( and hence the sound decay should much less, though decay may not have any thing to do with the sweet spot) and which throws sound at the back as well, so it should disperse the sound more than a normal speaker.

[JoeE SP9]

It's not decay it's horizontal dispersion. The quasi ribbon used in the MMG is actually part of the same diaphragm as the rest of the speaker. The horizontal dispersion is not very broad. It is better the further the listener is from the speakers. Unfortunately the smaller rooms they (MMG's) usually get placed in don't allow for "far field" listening. Get 10 feet away from some raised MMG's and the sweet spot is a fairly decent width.

IMO MMG's sound good even out of the sweet spot. They're just better in it.

The rear wave adds to the openness and depth of the sound. It doesn't help with the size of the sweet spot. The wall behind them (any dipolar) should be a mix of absorbing, reflective and dispersive surfaces.

[Feanor]

It's not decay it's horizontal dispersion. The quasi ribbon used in the MMG is actually part of the same diaphragm as the rest of the speaker. The horizontal dispersion is not very broad. It is better the further the listener is from the speakers. Unfortunately the smaller rooms they (MMG's) usually get placed in don't allow for "far field" listening. Get 10 feet away from some raised MMG's and the sweet spot is a fairly decent width.

IMO MMG's sound good even out of the sweet spot. They're just better in it.

The rear wave adds to the openness and depth of the sound. It doesn't help with the size of the sweet spot. The wall behind them (any dipolar) should be a mix of absorbing, reflective and dispersive surfaces.
I agree with Joe on these points -- and the MMG is a remarkable speaker for the money, though it isn't a "rocker".

Horizontal dispersion is limted by the width of the driver. The driver starts to "beam" when the wave length becomes 2x the width of the driver, hence for a 2" tweeter as on the MMG, the speakers starts to beam at about 3500 Hz.