Vintage Speakers

[mikedelic]

Hello All, I have been looking on Craigslist for speakers lately and I have a couple of questions. Obviously a pair of Advent Laureae speakers from back in the day for $100 are probably better than anything I could buy new now for that price. However, how much different are the speakers, crossovers etc now as compared to then? Also, is it possible to use the cabinet from an older speaker and replace the components to modernize the box? Thanks.

[Mr Peabody]

Some speakers today use improved cone material like aluminum, Kevlar or exotic compounds. With that said there's no guarantee this would necessarily sound better than a vintage speaker because a good speaker is a good speaker. I would be careful with buying "vintage" because typically the drivers in the speakers only last so long before the surrounds begin to give or cones crack. Some of those guys on CL are into restoring and re-selling so if you find some one who knows what they are doing you could get a gem. But most CL sellers just are getting rid of stuff out of the garage or basement.

With buying older speakers brands like Klipsch if well taken care of would be a safe bet as they are very efficient so the woofers don't move in and out as much as other drivers. This should hold true for other highly efficient brands with quality drivers. Also, Klipsch woofers have an accordian style surround opposed to a rubber type which also helps to preserve them. The Klipsch sound isn't everyone's cup of tea though. The best models would be a Heresy, Cornwall or Forte. A couple members have Advent, E-stat and Basite, they may have better info on that brand as to how they hold up and if they can be restored.

I would not recommend gutting a speaker and replacing the drivers unless you get direct replacements, either original or aftermarket to spec. A speaker box is designed for a certain driver, you can't just pop a 10" woofer into a 10" hole and expect it to sound right. Similar size drivers vary drastically as to what size and type box they sound good in and were designed to go in.

What other electronics do you have? Like what would you drive the speakers with? I usually see a lot of Polk on CL and some of their stuff is pretty good. I don't know them well enough to recommend any certain one.

[thekid]

I will leave the discussion of modern speakers to those that know them and own them. As the owner of more than my fair share of vintage speakers I highly recommend you do some research and keep an eye open for them. Mr. P makes some good points about issues that can be a problem with vintage speakers but many of the top speaker makers from that era built quality products that have stood the test of time. These speakers sound as good or better than many speakers on the market today in the price range of the average consumer. IMO the other nice thing about vintage speakers is that with a little patience and some luck you can spend modest amounts of money to try a wide variety of speakers that have different sound characteristics that might allow you to enjoy a variety of music.

Good luck and good hunting!

[cool09]

I've been studying vintage and modern speakers over the last 6 months and I found out that a lot of the older speakers like the Advents and Acoustic Research are much more suited to jazz and classical than hard rock. They have a subtle, mellow, realistic sound. Speakers (cones) today are made much sturdier/stiffer (composite materials or metal) than in the 60's/70's in order to provide the best dynamic response and a lot of research goes into improving the dampening of cones so excursion is controlled better.

[JoeE SP9]

Ha!!!
Utter rubbish. A good speaker will sound good on any kind of music. What's next? Different speakers for different mastering engineers. If a particular speaker makes hard rock for example, sound good and anything else bad, Well, that speaker has some serious problems.
A good speaker should give you what's in the recording, nothing more nothing less. Sure one speaker may have a very "bright" midrange, another a top end that goes to Bat frequencies and still another may have Stygian bass. IMO all of them sound bad. It's balance and compromise properly done that make a good speaker good.
All too many newbies feed into the "different music different speaker" line. They also usually think a 10 or 12 band crossover can make any speaker sound better. Then they end up with 15 different pairs of speakers, half a dozen different equalizers, range expanders and all kinds of electronic nonsense. All of this culminates in a system that sounds awful. Usually they can play very loud. No matter the volume it sounds awful.
Listen to some live unamplified music. Jazz, folk and classical are your only real choices here. It should have full instrumentation, stand up bass, drums etc. Then go listen to some speakers. Use the same type of music to audition them. The ones that sound closest to live are almost always the best.

That ends Selecting Speakers 101. You may now pay for the course.
Send cash (no checks, no credit) directly to me.

BTW: A lot of those guys who spout that "different music different speakers" line are just nostalgic cheapskates. They'd rather buy a pair of crappy Sansui speakers for $10 at the GW, spend $100 in parts and $500 in personal labor to make a crappy speaker somewhat less crappy. For $600 you can get a pair of MMG's. If they don't have enough bass for you get a decent sub woofer. For $800 to $900 you can have something that actually reminds you what real music sounds like.

[Geoffcin]

I've been studying vintage and modern speakers over the last 6 months and I found out that a lot of the older speakers like the Advents and Acoustic Research are much more suited to jazz and classical than hard rock. They have a subtle, mellow, realistic sound. Speakers (cones) today are made much sturdier/stiffer (composite materials or metal) than in the 60's/70's in order to provide the best dynamic response and a lot of research goes into improving the dampening of cones so excursion is controlled better.

I think you need to study a little more. Large Advents, especially stacked, can rock with the best out there. They can also make classical sould good. AR9's are ledgedary "rock" speakers, and will knock most other speakers new or old right off their stands. Even an "old" speaker like the AR3a will compress in a decent sized room somwhere north of 105dB. I will give you that material science has improved, but unless your getting into exotics like berylium or diamond, the GOOD old speakers stand up well in comparison to modern speakers.

[thekid]

Joe

With all due respect i think you make misinterpreted what the previous 2 post by myself and Cool09. I was not saying that you need different speakers for different music. Quality speakers will play all music well but even quality speakers have different sound characteristics. When a "nostalgic cheapskate" such as myself finds quality vitage speakers and takes it up I usually find that in some cases I find the speakers plays one type of music better than others. Yes your method of using music that provides a wide platform to judge a speaker's quality is the best method for selecting a pair of speakers. My point only was that through a various sources it is possible to obtain quality speakers without spending much money or devoting the 500 hours of labor needed to make them decent. I have obtained vintage KLH, Advent, Klipsch etc that were among some of the best speakers of their time at a fraction of their cost. I am not saying these speakers are better than the speakers of today but at a certain price point they are as good or better. (Read the article on Original Large Advents in this month's issue of Stereophile magazine.) I have admittedly had a few duds along the way but at $20 or less a pair I could afford it and learned something along the way.

[markw]

I love those maggie 1.6's and they do a very good job on whatver I throw at 'em, but they take careful placement and gobs of power.

BUT...

Nothing beats classic rock played on a vintage Marantz receiver (2270?) through pair of vintage JBL's (L26 Decades or L100 Centurys?). Likewise, acoustic folk, jazz, or classical on some old-school AR's (AR2, 4,or 5s) can be magical. ...well recorded, of course.

[JoeE SP9]

tk, I have never thought of you as a "nostalgic cheapskate". I was mainly taking a shot at some folks at AK. They think something like a pair of "vintage" Sansui's plus some work and money gives them a real "contender".
FWIW the DCM Time Windows, Advents and various AR models are IMO pretty damn good speakers period.

[markw]

I know of what you speak and I agree with you. Rarely does "re-engineering" a speaker produce good results. It may be different and, perhaps to the beholder, better, but it's not what the designer intended. Some people see any change as "better". But, to each his own.

Re-coning and maybe new caps is about as far a I would go.

But as for "vintage" speakers go, there were a few outstanding ones, a few more good ones, many mediocre ones, and quite a lot of drek. ..and size and number of drivers is not a true indicator of quality.

[hotrodder000]

I follow the motto "you get what you pay for" and it does good for me. haha

[Ajani]

Ha!!!
Utter rubbish. A good speaker will sound good on any kind of music. What's next? Different speakers for different mastering engineers. If a particular speaker makes hard rock for example, sound good and anything else bad, Well, that speaker has some serious problems.
A good speaker should give you what's in the recording, nothing more nothing less. Sure one speaker may have a very "bright" midrange, another a top end that goes to Bat frequencies and still another may have Stygian bass. IMO all of them sound bad. It's balance and compromise properly done that make a good speaker good.
All too many newbies feed into the "different music different speaker" line. They also usually think a 10 or 12 band crossover can make any speaker sound better. Then they end up with 15 different pairs of speakers, half a dozen different equalizers, range expanders and all kinds of electronic nonsense. All of this culminates in a system that sounds awful. Usually they can play very loud. No matter the volume it sounds awful.
Listen to some live unamplified music. Jazz, folk and classical are your only real choices here. It should have full instrumentation, stand up bass, drums etc. Then go listen to some speakers. Use the same type of music to audition them. The ones that sound closest to live are almost always the best.

That ends Selecting Speakers 101. You may now pay for the course.
Send cash (no checks, no credit) directly to me.

BTW: A lot of those guys who spout that "different music different speakers" line are just nostalgic cheapskates. They'd rather buy a pair of crappy Sansui speakers for $10 at the GW, spend $100 in parts and $500 in personal labor to make a crappy speaker somewhat less crappy. For $600 you can get a pair of MMG's. If they don't have enough bass for you get a decent sub woofer. For $800 to $900 you can have something that actually reminds you what real music sounds like.

I was pretty much with you about speakers doing a good job with all types of music, until you dropped Magnepan as a suggestion... Maggies are a perfect example of speakers that don't sound good with all genres of music...

[markw]

I was pretty much with you about speakers doing a good job with all types of music, until you dropped Magnepan as a suggestion... Maggies are a perfect example of speakers that don't sound good with all genres of music...I'll go along on the smaller ones like the MMG's and other small ones, but bigger maggies (from the 1.'s on up) do a pretty good job but some want more extention, but this is not uncommon for many other speakers as well.

[JoeE SP9]

As an ex Maggy owner (MG1's, 2's and 3's) who plays a wide variety of music I never found them wanting for any music I played. Of course, they didn't do pipe organ very well. What does without a sub or two? MMG's with a sub will give any sub $1000 a pair of "monkey coffin's" a run for the money.
Maggy's like lots of current. Driving any of them with a typical receiver won't allow them to show their best. An amp with at least 200wpc@4 Ohms will bring out their best. The reason for the existence of MMG's is to introduce people to the "Maggy" sound. That's why they are sold only factory direct with the one year full price trade up policy.

Ajani: That we disagree about MMG's (maybe all Maggy's) doesn't impact the validity of the rest of my post.

[Ajani]

Ajani: That we disagree about MMG's (maybe all Maggy's) doesn't impact the validity of the rest of my post.

Agreed... I think the rest of your post is fine... But we disagree on the Maggies...

Of course my views of Maggies are based on a very bad experience auditioning the MG12s on an all McIntosh setup in Toronto... First the speakers sounded really bad, unlike anything I'd ever heard (and I've heard a few electrostats, which I liked btw)... Second, the dealer clearly realized the MG12s were not sounding good and said that "I had the wrong type of music" for them and suggested I try a Revel/Musical Fidelity Combo at the other end of the demo room (that combo sounded great btw)...

[poppachubby]

Agreed... I think the rest of your post is fine... But we disagree on the Maggies...

Of course my views of Maggies are based on a very bad experience auditioning the MG12s on an all McIntosh setup in Toronto... First the speakers sounded really bad, unlike anything I'd ever heard (and I've heard a few electrostats, which I liked btw)... Second, the dealer clearly realized the MG12s were not sounding good and said that "I had the wrong type of music" for them and suggested I try a Revel/Musical Fidelity Combo at the other end of the demo room (that combo sounded great btw)...

Well, it would seem if you were aware of it being a bad experience/set-up, perhaps your opinion should be no opinion. Give them another chance. If you are talking about Audio Excellence, that's surprising.

[Ajani]

Well, it would seem if you were aware of it being a bad experience/set-up, perhaps your opinion should be no opinion. Give them another chance. If you are talking about Audio Excellence, that's surprising.

Certainly if I get the chance to audition another set elsewhere then I will. However, I see no reason to believe that the setup was bad, considering the decades of experience Audio Excellence has with Magnepan and that the electronics and setup looked textbook perfect for planars... So I am left to believe that I just really don't like the sound of Maggies (with my favorite genres of music)...

[Mr Peabody]

I have heard Maggie's with gear like Levinson and even the 20's, I am in the camp I would not own a pair. The 1.6's sounded more balanced than other models I've heard. If others enjoy them that's fine but I don't see how anyone could in good conscience say they are an "all music" speaker. They are far from being a neutral speaker and seem to fall very short on energetic music. Mac and Maggies I can just imagine how bad that sounded. Talking warm to the extreme.

[JoeE SP9]

Certainly if I get the chance to audition another set elsewhere then I will. However, I see no reason to believe that the setup was bad, considering the decades of experience Audio Excellence has with Magnepan and that the electronics and setup looked textbook perfect for planars... So I am left to believe that I just really don't like the sound of Maggies (with my favorite genres of music)...

The fact that the dealer didn't like the sound would be an indication there was something amiss. However, any speaker sold or marketed for a particular type of music raises alarm flags with me. IMO a good speaker is a good speaker. It should be good for whatever one listens to.

[E-Stat]

However, how much different are the speakers, crossovers etc now as compared to then?
Crossovers today use film caps which tend to be more open sounding than the electrolytics used back then. The design of cabinets today acknowledges the diffraction problems caused by recessing the drivers. As for the drivers, there are two changes - one philosophical and one technological. Two ways today rarely use woofers larger than 6.5" in order to allow the use of higher performance 1" dome tweeters that must be crossed over in the 2 kHz region. Not coincidentally, the wavelength at 2 kHz is about 6.5" - which is as large as you can go without compromising dispersion. If you want first octave bass, then you must supplement them with subs. The Large Advent, by contrast does provide solid response down to 35 hz, but does not have the HF extension nor dispersion of modern tweeter designs. On the other hand, they are well balanced and their sins are largely of omission. They are somewhat veiled and have a slightly prominent midrange as compared with my electrostats.


Also, is it possible to use the cabinet from an older speaker and replace the components to modernize the box? Thanks.
Not really, because their simply aren't any modern tweeters that respond as low as the Advent design requires. I have a double pair of New Advents and have updated my crossovers with a mix of new electrolytic and film caps. Film caps have a lower ESR and a wholesale replacement changes the tonal balance. I found using a new 12 uF electrolytic and a 1 uF Solens film cap improved resolution with messing up the response. Also, I put wool padding around the tweeters to minimize the cabinet diffraction and run them sans grills. The New Advents with their ferrofluid cooled tweeters can handle hundreds of watts and can rock pretty darn well. I power mine with a 400 watt Threshold Stasis amp. I used them outside for the neighbor's Halloween party last year where they did a good job.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/advents.jpg

rw

[JohnMichael]

The original poster was asking about Advent Laureates which were tower speakers with two 6.5 inch woofers and a tweeter. I think these might have been made when Advent was owned by Jensen.

[markw]

The original poster was asking about Advent Laureates which were tower speakers with two 6.5 inch woofers and a tweeter. I think these might have been made when Advent was owned by Jensen.I must assume he was workig with what's available with a somewhat limited budget and personal taste should dictate what one winds up with, not anybody else's opinion.

All these high-and-mighty proclimations by some as to what's good and what's not good here really do make some of us seem like the audio-snobs we try to say we aren't. Then again maybe some of us really are.

[E-Stat]

The original poster was asking about Advent Laureates which were tower speakers with two 6.5 inch woofers and a tweeter. I think these might have been made when Advent was owned by Jensen.
Indeed. They were definitely beyond the Henry Kloss design days.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Is Advent still in business? I thought they were one of those old brand names that had been sold and stamped on various cheap electronics.

[thekid]

tk, I have never thought of you as a "nostalgic cheapskate". I was mainly taking a shot at some folks at AK. They think something like a pair of "vintage" Sansui's plus some work and money gives them a real "contender".
FWIW the DCM Time Windows, Advents and various AR models are IMO pretty damn good speakers period.

Joe

No real worries on my end I kind of took your phrase and wrapped it around myself-you have have seen enough of my posts to know I am actually kind of proud of my frugal ways..... :D Ijust did not want the OP to think that for someone who might be on a budget that a quality is not an option.

Certainly over at AK they have a larger vintage following than here and some of the attitudes you described in your thread do exist. However, for the most part though I think the vintage crowd over there seems to be more into the tinkering aspect of it for the sake of tinkering than trying to turn the sow's ear into a silk purse.