Advice needed for a Hi FI System for a Newbee Audiophile

[berzerkr]

Hello Everyone. Need advice on a hifi system. My budget is pretty good (around 3-4 k) but dont know much about DACs, amps, SACD etc. Mainly listen to electronic and metal but really listen to many different genres including classical music. I do not want to get ripped off and just want to learn a little more about the various equipment in a hi fi system. I also heard about turning your computer into a hi fi system which also attracts me since I have most of my music on my cpu. Any help would be great and im sure you guys dont mind helping out a learning audiophile, in the end its all about the music. Website suggestions would be cool too.

[blackraven]

On that budget, I would recommed that you check out www.emotiva.com for power amps and preamp (or at least power amp). I would alot between $600-$1100 to a power amp and at least $1k to $1.5K to speakers. Which power amp you buy should depend on the speakers you plan on buying. As far as a DAC and a computer. Thats a good way to go. You need to make sure your computer sound card has a digital out or you will need a usb DAC. The PS Audio Digilink III is a nice DAC. Or you could go with the Benchmark which will function as an excellent preamp and DAC combined. Its a great way to go and its a reference quality peice of audio gear despite it's small size. The top one below comes with a remote control which I think is a must have for me.

http://www.dac1pre.com/?gclid=CMCb48TExKECFcnV5wodoBg_AA

http://www.dac1pre.com/?gclid=CMCb48TExKECFcnV5wodoBg_AA

Another option would be to find a used Cambridge Audio 840c CD player as it can play CD's and also be used as a DAC for digital sources. You would still need to buy a preamp though.

Other amps to consider are B&K reference series and Belles 150A which have warmer sounds. Odyssey power amps, Van Alstine power amps, Parasound A23 or Parasound Classic series.

As far as SACD is concerned, it you do not listen to much Classical or Vocal Jazz then forget about it as there is very little SACD's for rock and probably none for metal.

If you decide that you want a CD player instead of a DAC then consider the Marantz SA-8003 SACDP, it has a warmer sound and is a very good CD player and an excellent SACDP.
The Oppo digital BD-83 and BD-83se are bluray players that is also an excellent SACD player, CD player, DVD and DVD-A in addition to being one of the best BluRay player out there.

Other CD players to consider are the Rega Apollo, Cambridge Audio 740c, Emotiva ERC-1 to name a few.

[Ajani]

berzerkr,

the amount of options in your price range are mind boggling and a lot of auditioning is in order... I can tell you what I've done (still doing) with your budget:

Transport: Squeezebox Classic $300 (the Squeezebox Touch is now available at the same price).
DAC/Pre Amp: Benchmark DAC1 $1,000
Power Amp: Emotiva XPA-2 $800
Speakers: Revel Concerta F12 $1,500
Cables: All BlueJeansCable (3ft Digital Coaxial,10ft RCA Stereo & 6ft speaker) $90
Total Cost: $3,690

And with the $310 you have left you can pick up a nice pair of headphones - I got the AKG K701...

Note: my system is based around playing lossless audio files from my computer...

[poppachubby]

Do you have any equipment or experience up to this point? I'm also wondering, do you see yourself using CD's, LP's, digital files...

[pixelthis]

Spend most on speakers.
EMOTIVA is highly recomended , I sure love mine.
Dont get too hung up on a CD player, its a dying format, basically.
Get a computer, a USB DAC, you can use it to play CD's, BTW.
Burn all of your music with a program called exact audio copy.
You don't even need a pre-amp, can use a computer for that, too.
I have a receiver I use for a preamp, but my system is a home theather/audio
hybird.
But I can't even remember the last time I played a CD, really.
Its a format that has one foot on the grave and the other on the banana peel,
although I do enjoy the occasional listening session, my player is eight years old.:1:

[berzerkr]

This is exactly why I joined this forum. You guys are awesome and thank you all for your input. To BlackRaven> That really sux about the SACDs but I may end up buying one because I do listen to classical and have seen some titles I love on SACD. Do you have a suggestion for a good hi fi system based around using the cpu? To Ajani> Thank you for your suggestion on making a new thread for my questions. And your very correct; the options are far and wide :confused: But with a little time and research and visits to a store ill find something for me. Your system seems pretty simple. I am too am updating all my music to FLAC as well and now only using FLAC. To Poppachubby> I saw that website your on showcasing your system. That site looks like its for serious audiophiles. Mostly my experience is with digital files and CDs. Never owned a vinyl or a record player. Turned away from the act of collecting vinyl and the negatives like the pops, cracks, etc and I know you have to take very good care of the records. I love the act however of collecting the vinyl because it can be rare, the artwork is very cool, and of course the sound is supposed to be the best and nothing else compares. I never heard a vinyl record and im a little afraid i may get hooked to it lol. I dont have any equipment other than an old cpu and basic speakers but im building a new cpu (i know how to build them from scratch). To Pixelthis> Very aware CD is a dying format which is why i would want my cpu to be my system. I honestly havent bought a CD in years and normally just download lossless audio. Unless the CD is someone i love or want to support. D

[blackraven]

Spend most on speakers.
EMOTIVA is highly recomended , I sure love mine.
Dont get too hung up on a CD player, its a dying format, basically.
Get a computer, a USB DAC, you can use it to play CD's, BTW.
Burn all of your music with a program called exact audio copy.
You don't even need a pre-amp, can use a computer for that, too.
I have a receiver I use for a preamp, but my system is a home theather/audio
hybird.
But I can't even remember the last time I played a CD, really.
Its a format that has one foot on the grave and the other on the banana peel,
although I do enjoy the occasional listening session, my player is eight years old.:1:


I would definitey use a preamp over the computer. The Benchmark DAC/pre is the way to go for your needs. I would also use an inexpensive CD player to use as a tranpsort for the DAC so you can play your CD's.

[Ajani]

This is exactly why I joined this forum. You guys are awesome and thank you all for your input. To BlackRaven> That really sux about the SACDs but I may end up buying one because I do listen to classical and have seen some titles I love on SACD. Do you have a suggestion for a good hi fi system based around using the cpu? To Ajani> Thank you for your suggestion on making a new thread for my questions. And your very correct; the options are far and wide :confused: But with a little time and research and visits to a store ill find something for me. Your system seems pretty simple. I am too am updating all my music to FLAC as well and now only using FLAC. To Poppachubby> I saw that website your on showcasing your system. That site looks like its for serious audiophiles. Mostly my experience is with digital files and CDs. Never owned a vinyl or a record player. Turned away from the act of collecting vinyl and the negatives like the pops, cracks, etc and I know you have to take very good care of the records. I love the act however of collecting the vinyl because it can be rare, the artwork is very cool, and of course the sound is supposed to be the best and nothing else compares. I never heard a vinyl record and im a little afraid i may get hooked to it lol. I dont have any equipment other than an old cpu and basic speakers but im building a new cpu (i know how to build them from scratch). To Pixelthis> Very aware CD is a dying format which is why i would want my cpu to be my system. I honestly havent bought a CD in years and normally just download lossless audio. Unless the CD is someone i love or want to support. D

If you want to build a system around your computer, the first question is whether you will have the computer at your listening position or if you'd want a remote control?

If you need a remote then I recommend the Squeezebox Touch or Duet as a good starting point... Or you could use an Apple Airport Express with an iPod Touch as the remote...

Then you'll want a DAC...

Another option if you don't need a remote is to get a USB DAC and connect it directly to your computer...

I opted for the $1K basic Benchmark DAC1 instead of the $1.3K DAC1 USB and bought a Squeezebox Classic with the $300 difference...

[blackraven]

Berzerker, I would opt for the Benchmarrk DAC/Pre, a B&K reference 200.2 amp (warmer sounding, gobs of power and american made) or the Emotiva XPA2 which will a little brighter sounding compared to the B&K.

http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=74&products_id=9711&osCsid=9e9779f3e56374d4065001ea80b5422a

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

If you want SACD play consider an Oppo Universal player. For a standard cd player look at the emotiva ERC-1

That would leave you about $2K for speakers of your liking. Take a look at PSB's, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, B&W even Magnepan QR 1.7's to name a few.

[pixelthis]

I would definitey use a preamp over the computer. The Benchmark DAC/pre is the way to go for your needs. I would also use an inexpensive CD player to use as a tranpsort for the DAC so you can play your CD's.

Of course.
I'M JUST SAYIN...
And get a turntable, because there is still a few things on records that are
not available anywhere else.
So make sure your pre has a turntable preamp.:1:

[berzerkr]

If you want to build a system around your computer, the first question is whether you will have the computer at your listening position or if you'd want a remote control?

If you need a remote then I recommend the Squeezebox Touch or Duet as a good starting point... Or you could use an Apple Airport Express with an iPod Touch as the remote...

Then you'll want a DAC...

Another option if you don't need a remote is to get a USB DAC and connect it directly to your computer...

I opted for the $1K basic Benchmark DAC1 instead of the $1.3K DAC1 USB and bought a Squeezebox Classic with the $300 difference...

Thats another question i wanted to ask. Does it matter where your listening position is? I do often sit and relax to tunes but sometimes (like alot of ppl) i do things while im listening like clean or dance lol. Like i said im new to this and its def going to take me a lil while to learn. I have decided that I do want my system based around the cpu to play my digital muzak and also SACD/CD. Im trying to refrain from an ipod cuz i hate apple but seen them in action and they are cool. A remote isnt all important but ive seen the squeeze box and those are awesome too.

[berzerkr]

Berzerker, I would opt for the Benchmarrk DAC/Pre, a B&K reference 200.2 amp (warmer sounding, gobs of power and american made) or the Emotiva XPA2 which will a little brighter sounding compared to the B&K.

http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=74&products_id=9711&osCsid=9e9779f3e56374d4065001ea80b5422a

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

If you want SACD play consider an Oppo Universal player. For a standard cd player look at the emotiva ERC-1

That would leave you about $2K for speakers of your liking. Take a look at PSB's, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, B&W even Magnepan QR 1.7's to name a few.

I always hear warm sounds and deatiled highs used often. What does that mean exactly? Do certain music sound better or worse with different equipment? Soon enuff ill have to go to a store and just hear it for myself with my own muzak. Would like to remind everyone that i am a real noob to this hobby so all the definitions are new to me lol. Again, thank you all for giving out your knowledge and opinions.

[Ajani]

Thats another question i wanted to ask. Does it matter where your listening position is? I do often sit and relax to tunes but sometimes (like alot of ppl) i do things while im listening like clean or dance lol. Like i said im new to this and its def going to take me a lil while to learn.

Music sounds better if you are seated properly (which usually means tweeters around ear height and you are about an equal distance from the speakers as they are from each other - so the left speaker, right speaker and you make an equliateral triangle - you don't have to be so exact and you'll want to experiment to get the best results)...

I clean and dance while music is playing too (as I'm sure many other audiophiles do), but you still want a proper listening position for when you are just focusing on enjoying the music....


I have decided that I do want my system based around the cpu to play my digital muzak and also SACD/CD. Im trying to refrain from an ipod cuz i hate apple but seen them in action and they are cool. A remote isnt all important but ive seen the squeeze box and those are awesome too.

Assuming that you have most of your music collection on your cpu, and will only buy some SACDS, then I'd suggest spending more money on a good DAC than an SACD player...

Also, hate them or not, Apple has some of the best, affordable music server products available now...

The most important thing that you can do now is to go out and audition some setups at a HiFi store... Then let us know which products you liked/disliked... It makes it much easier for us to give recommendations... and more importantly lets you discover what products sound good to you... As anyone of us could recommend a great system for your budget, you buy it and discover that you don't like how it sounds... Since what sounds good to me may not sound good to you... this hobby is very very very subjective....

[harley .guy07]

Berzerker, I would opt for the Benchmarrk DAC/Pre, a B&K reference 200.2 amp (warmer sounding, gobs of power and american made) or the Emotiva XPA2 which will a little brighter sounding compared to the B&K.

http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=74&products_id=9711&osCsid=9e9779f3e56374d4065001ea80b5422a

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

If you want SACD play consider an Oppo Universal player. For a standard cd player look at the emotiva ERC-1

That would leave you about $2K for speakers of your liking. Take a look at PSB's, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, B&W even Magnepan QR 1.7's to name a few.


I will second this opinion as far as the Oppo multi disk player, they are really good players and with a good dac they will be very good as far as audio, I use one with a ps audio digilink 3 dac and it makes musical magic in my house. Paradigm speakers are another one of my recommendations since they can be had at good prices and offer really good price per performance ratio. I have a pair of 17 year old monitor 7's that I have modified with new soft dome tweeters that are really doing a fine job for me in my audio setup. But I will say that quality cables and a dac that is dedicated to high end audio is almost a must to get the most out of your setup. I have learned this myself with my system. I have heard plenty of systems with speakers that are 3 times the price of mine that don't come close to my sound quality since I have set up the front end of my system with a good player and dac that brings the most out of the music. My only advice is to do what I do, do the most research you can and find what sound you like and make the choices based upon the best for your particular system you plan on building and take every component into account.

[JoeE SP9]

Music sounds better if you are seated properly (which usually means tweeters around ear height and you are about an equal distance from the speakers as they are from each other - so the left speaker, right speaker and you make an equliateral triangle - you don't have to be so exact and you'll want to experiment to get the best results)...

I clean and dance while music is playing too (as I'm sure many other audiophiles do), but you still want a proper listening position for when you are just focusing on enjoying the music....



Assuming that you have most of your music collection on your cpu, and will only buy some SACDS, then I'd suggest spending more money on a good DAC than an SACD player...

Also, hate them or not, Apple has some of the best, affordable music server products available now...

The most important thing that you can do now is to go out and audition some setups at a HiFi store... Then let us know which products you liked/disliked... It makes it much easier for us to give recommendations... and more importantly lets you discover what products sound good to you... As anyone of us could recommend a great system for your budget, you buy it and discover that you don't like how it sounds... Since what sounds good to me may not sound good to you... this hobby is very very very subjective....

Seated properly is called being in the "sweet spot". No matter how good your system sounds while dancing, cleaning or whatever, it will sound its very best while you are seated in the "sweet spot".

Of course how good the sound is in the sweet spot depends more on proper speaker placement and room acoustics than electronics. This is not to say that BPC (Black Plastic Crap) will produce sound as good as nice vintage, mid-fi or "high end" gear. It won't. It's just that all other things being equal speakers and room make more difference.

Listen for yourself and buy what sounds good to you.

[winston]

"Stereophile June 2010" check this out "YBA Design the model WD202......$879.00

D/A processor & Headphone amplifier Stereophile Conclusion is that the "YBA Design has really accomplished something in the WD202. Remote and all, the price is still too much for "ME"

but considering the cost of the Benchmark DAC1" the price of the "YBA WD202 is less than"half And its a YBA Design made in PRC.??!!... and according to what I read in Stereophile mag. its Straight UP with the Benchmark DAC1<> that said for those who don't have a problem with Benchmark DAC1 "price" needs to read (Jon Iverson) report on the WD202 in Sereophile June 2010 :0: :0:

[Ajani]

"Stereophile June 2010" check this out "YBA Design the model WD202......$879.00

D/A processor & Headphone amplifier Stereophile Conclusion is that the "YBA Design has really accomplished something in the WD202. Remote and all, the price is still too much for "ME"

but considering the cost of the Benchmark DAC1" the price of the "YBA WD202 is less than"half And its a YBA Design made in PRC.??!!... and according to what I read in Stereophile mag. its Straight UP with the Benchmark DAC1<> that said for those who don't have a problem with Benchmark DAC1 "price" needs to read (Jon Iverson) report on the WD202 in Sereophile June 2010 :0: :0:

Huh? You have way too many "quotes" in that... so I'm not really sure where the Stereophile quotes begin or end...

Also what were the technical measurements like for the YBA? Is the volume control digital or analog? The Benchmark uses a high quality analog, whereas most other DACs with Volume control use digital. Did Jon test out the headphone amp and the USB inputs?

There are many many many DACs that have copied the Benchmark feature list for less, but none that I know of have achieved the same high quality in all those features.... So if all he compared was the YBA's sound as a DAC (using coaxial or optical) then a fairer comparison would be to the DAC1 $995 rather than the DAC HDR $1895....

Sadly my subscription to Stereophile has expired so I'll need to wait for the review to be printed online...

For the record, I think that unless you really need the extra features, then the basic DAC1 is easily the best value in the line... If like me, you don't need USB or an analog input, then paying almost double to get a remote makes the HDR way too expensive....

[winston]

Ajani" I'm I sensing a (vibes) In your Reply?? :wink5:

yes your correct in saying that a fairer comparison should have been (DAC HDR) how ever I was just trying to pass on some information from a four page article in stereophile because "A-hem" IMO it deserved to be look at, as it covers everything in that area!!

subsequently (Jon) did give the edge to the DAC1 as its been around and stand the test of time!! peace man

[Ajani]

Ajani" I'm I sensing a (vibes) In your Reply?? :wink5:

yes your correct in saying that a fairer comparison should have been (DAC HDR) how ever I was just trying to pass on some information from a four page article in stereophile because "A-hem" IMO it deserved to be look at, as it covers everything in that area!!

subsequently (Jon) did give the edge to the DAC1 as its been around and stand the test of time!! peace man

I have no issue with the notion that a cheaper DAC could perform as well as (or even better than) the DAC1... But there are a lot of factors people forget about when they criticise the DAC1 line for its "price(s)":

1) The basic model is $995 (extremely cheap by High End standards) and it will give you the same sonic performance as the other 3 more expensive models (just without the extra features)...

2) The USB model is $1,295 - so you pay an additional $300 just to add a USB input... That does sound very expensive, but then you need to consider that almost all the USB inputs on DACs and amps are crap (just read the Stereophile reviews and measurements and you'll see that the USB inputs are almost always subpar to the other inputs of the DACs - even on DACs costing $2K like the Bel Canto).... So it's a lot of money, but it is a high quality USB input, and not just a 'gimmick' for occasional listening...

3) The DAC1 PRE is $1,595 - and adds an analog input to the DAC1 USB for another $300 - Once again, expensive but the input is high quality rather than gimmicky...

4) Finally the DAC1 HDR is $1,895 - and you get a remote added to the DAC1 Pre design... $300 is once again expensive just to add a remote, but considering that a low quality remote can reduce the performance of a good pre, Benchmark opted for very high quality...

5) If you stripped out the Volume Control and the headphone amp from the base model, I'm sure Benchmark could sell a DAC1 for just $500... So a HiFi company that is serious about producing a top quality DAC could offer a 'feature free' DAC that is as good as the DAC1 for half the price!!!! Problem is that most of the more affordable DACs are either too cheap ($300 just ain't gonna cut it) and/or try to mimic the DAC1 PRE/HDR features (so you get a pile of substandard features in a low price DAC)...

My issue with the DAC1 is that if you want certain features then you have to pay quite a bit more for a whole lot of other ones that you may not want... If all you want is a DAC with no extra features then you end up paying $995 instead of about $500 that it should cost... If you want a DAC with a remote volume control, then you pay $1,895 instead of about $995 that it should cost you...