May be a table finally.

[frenchmon]

Thanks to MrP....I have a very good chance to buy a table just like this in mint condition for $125.00....the seller is suppose to send me more pictures tonight. I have not owned a table sense the early 80's and don't know anything about carts, or upgrading at all....Shoot...I have no records but my mom is on me about getting my dads old blues and r&b albums and 45's. So what would be the best cart to go with this, and what would I need to upgrade this thing? Or should I spend money upgrading? Its a direct drive. Would it be best to buy a external phono amp? The base is solid wood...I think its cherry ...I think I would put a cartridge on it no more that what I pay for the table....$125. or would that be to much? How would I tell what character a cartridge has? Are they warm, bright or what? Or should I spend a $125?

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2422/marantz6300092908020499.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/marantz6300092908020499.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Welcome to the dark side. Fine table. Don't worry about how much a cart is worth, or any value formulas based on your table's worth.

How much would you be willing to spend is the real question. Do you have a phono stage in your current chain, in your amp perhaps?

Answer those questions and we'll get you set up. As far as sonic character, indeed different manufacturers lean on certain sounds. Ortofon, bright and forward....Shure, laid back and warm....on and on. What would you characterize your preference for CD sound to be? I see you as an Ortofon type.

[02audionoob]

If you're talking about the one on the St. Louis Craigslist, it doesn't appear to have the correct feet on it. If you find yourself trying to replace the feet with the originals, you could be paying quite a bit. The base isn't solid wood, not that it would benefit from that. It's veneered MDF.

I wouldn't really know where to begin, with regard to cartridge recommendations, but I'd say $125 is an adequate budget. There's the Shure M97XE, Ortofon 2M Red, Audio-Technica AT95HE, Nagaoka MP-110, Grado Blue, or maybe stretch a tiny bit to the Denon DL-110.

I've been thinking about your questions on upgrading. I don't see that there would be any point to talking about upgrades when you haven't heard the turntable as it is. I can't think of a single thing that I'd try to do to that turntable to upgrade it, unless maybe you want better cables and don't mind soldering.

[poppachubby]

Yes to noob's points. The other thing here Byron is that you are an experienced enthusiast, with good gear and an equally discerning ear. I'm not sure if a budget cart/stage will satisfy you. You should try to get to a dealer and have a listen, better yet, bring it home for auditioning.

You will enjoy the stability of a direct drive, but some would argue at the lower end, they can have a "lifeless" sound. Cart will be essential to this point. The better Denon, Technics and Micro Seiki have better fidelity while employing direct drive.

All subjective of course, and don't let me chase you away from direct drive. I have an SL-Q2 which I enjoy plenty.

[frenchmon]

Welcome to the dark side. Fine table. Don't worry about how much a cart is worth, or any value formulas based on your table's worth.

How much would you be willing to spend is the real question. Do you have a phono stage in your current chain, in your amp perhaps?

Answer those questions and we'll get you set up. As far as sonic character, indeed different manufacturers lean on certain sounds. Ortofon, bright and forward....Shure, laid back and warm....on and on. What would you characterize your preference for CD sound to be? I see you as an Ortofon type.

There is one in my preamp....and I sure dont want a sound that would bore me...I think you got a cart called "blue" something what sound does that have?

[frenchmon]

If you're talking about the one on the St. Louis Craigslist, it doesn't appear to have the correct feet on it. If you find yourself trying to replace the feet with the originals, you could be paying quite a bit. The base isn't solid wood, not that it would benefit from that. It's veneered MDF.

I wouldn't really know where to begin, with regard to cartridge recommendations, but I'd say $125 is an adequate budget. There's the Shure M97XE, Ortofon 2M Red, Audio-Technica AT95HE, Nagaoka MP-110, Grado Blue, or maybe stretch a tiny bit to the Denon DL-110.

I've been thinking about your questions on upgrading. I don't see that there would be any point to talking about upgrades when you haven't heard the turntable as it is. I can't think of a single thing that I'd try to do to that turntable to upgrade it, unless maybe you want better cables and don't mind soldering.

I wonder what gave you that idea...that it was STL Craigs list? IF its not the real legs...that may be a point to deal. I may want to try and change the cables...and as far as more upgrades....if I did purchase...I may have to take it to Peabodys to get a judge of sound. He has a Rega 2 table.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Sumiko Blue Point? It's a high output moving coil (HOMC) and sounds amazing. It's leaps and bounds beyond a budget cart sonically.

Mids are gorgeous, bass is full and smooth. I enjoy the highs and feel they are extended, at least to suit my taste. However, this is the common complaint about this cart, rolled off highs. Overall it's a thrill to listen to. Dynamically exciting.

It's not the most forgiving with low quality or poorly recorded LPs. The tracking is superb however. This cart would be an amazing entry back into vinyl, and really showcase for you the HUGE developments that have been made in analog.

There are now 3 versions out. The Sumiko Blue Point, SBP No.2 and the Sp.Ed Evos which Adam has BTW.

Denon also make a couple of superb, highly regarded HOMC carts. The DL-110 and DL-160.

The other advantage for you with a HOMC is that it's been designed to be played at 47k, the typical gain for a moving magnet phono stage. You don't need a step up transformer to pump the signal.

I currently have a lightly used Ortofon OMB-10. You can try it out and see what you think. It would give you a good idea regarding the budget level. If you like it, you can have it. If not, or if you upgrade just send it back to me.

A friend of mine got it with his table, but upgraded to the 2M Blue right away. I've probably put only 50 hours on it, enough to break it in.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3539/4563713710_edc6651660.jpg

[frenchmon]

Yes to noob's points. The other thing here Byron is that you are an experienced enthusiast, with good gear and an equally discerning ear. I'm not sure if a budget cart/stage will satisfy you. You should try to get to a dealer and have a listen, better yet, bring it home for auditioning.

You will enjoy the stability of a direct drive, but some would argue at the lower end, they can have a "lifeless" sound. Cart will be essential to this point. The better Denon, Technics and Micro Seiki have better fidelity while employing direct drive.

All subjective of course, and don't let me chase you away from direct drive. I have an SL-Q2 which I enjoy plenty.

Thanks for the advice.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Sumiko Blue Point? It's a high output moving coil (HOMC) and sounds amazing. It's leaps and bounds beyond a budget cart sonically.

Mids are gorgeous, bass is full and smooth. I enjoy the highs and feel they are extended, at least to suit my taste. However, this is the common complaint about this cart, rolled off highs. Overall it's a thrill to listen to. Dynamically exciting.

It's not the most forgiving with low quality or poorly recorded LPs. The tracking is superb however. This cart would be an amazing entry back into vinyl, and really showcase for you the HUGE developments that have been made in analog.

There are now 3 versions out. The Sumiko Blue Point, SBP No.2 and the Sp.Ed Evos which Adam has BTW.

Denon also make a couple of superb, highly regarded HOMC carts. The DL-110 and DL-160.

The other advantage for you with a HOMC is that it's been designed to be played at 47k, the typical gain for a moving magnet phono stage. You don't need a step up transformer to pump the signal.

I currently have a lightly used Ortofon OMB-10. You can try it out and see what you think. It would give you a good idea regarding the budget level. If you like it, you can have it. If not, or if you upgrade just send it back to me.

A friend of mine got it with his table, but upgraded to the 2M Blue right away. I've probably put only 50 hours on it, enough to break it in.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3539/4563713710_edc6651660.jpg

WOW poppaC...your to kind and you make it sound so interesting....I hope I get the table....im still waiting to hear back from the girl who is selling.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

Now that you've found a table to get your interest I hope it works out for you. If the seller don't have a stereo where you can hear the table at least plug it in and put the needle on a record. One time I was looking for a table for a friend and a guy wanted to sell this linear tracking table, I had him play an LP, the thing kept playing like a minute of a track and starting over. I doubt that style of Marantz would have an issue like that but it's good to see and better to hear it in action.

[frenchmon]

Now that you've found a table to get your interest I hope it works out for you. If the seller don't have a stereo where you can hear the table at least plug it in and put the needle on a record. One time I was looking for a table for a friend and a guy wanted to sell this linear tracking table, I had him play an LP, the thing kept playing like a minute of a track and starting over. I doubt that style of Marantz would have an issue like that but it's good to see and better to hear it in action.

I sent her an email asking for more pictures, and she replied she would send them today...I have yet to receive any pictures....I sent her another email about 5 minutes ago. Oh.....I did not find it....you did....and thank you sir.

[02audionoob]

I wonder what gave you that idea...that it was STL Craigs list? IF its not the real legs...that may be a point to deal. I may want to try and change the cables...and as far as more upgrades....if I did purchase...I may have to take it to Peabodys to get a judge of sound. He has a Rega 2 table.

frenchmon

Your location, listed on your profile.

[poppachubby]

WOW poppaC...your to kind and you make it sound so interesting....I hope I get the table....im still waiting to hear back from the girl who is selling.

frenchmon

Let me know and I'll pop the cart in the mail. Priority should only be 5 bucks or so.

The other thing you should know is the stylus is upgradable on the OM series. The 10 is entry, but if you bought a 20 stylus things would really start poppin...

[frenchmon]

Your location, listed on your profile.

It seems I can never find anything on that list, but Peabody always seems to find stuff....he then forwards me stuff he finds...and he finds good stuff.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

[QUOTE=poppachubby]Let me know and I'll pop the cart in the mail. Priority should only be 5 bucks or so.

The other thing you should know is the stylus is upgradable on the OM series. The 10 is entry, but if you bought a 20 stylus things would really start poppin...[/QUOT}

You Bet! As of now, 5.43am central time I have not heard from the girl who is selling. I've sent a few emails but no response.

[poppachubby]

Byron if you want a table, and she doesn't respond, it's no biggy to find something equivelant to the Marantz.

Like I said, give some thought to an overall budget, and match your expectations to it. Properly set up, entry level can be impressive and satisfying. I'm by no means into a high end analog set up, and I have a lovely, revealing sound from my table. Is Peabody's Rega P2 stock, or upgraded?

If the love and care isn't put into it, it will just be a means to create noise and distortion.

The better tables are designed to cope with the usual issues that plague them. You really just need to set up the cart and away you go...

Have you seen the new Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 Genie? For $499 it would appear to compete beyond it's price. Lots of trickle down technology applied to it. I'm thinking hard about getting one. My local dealer will be getting a couple in soon, I can't wait to hear it.

http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/PRO-2012560.jpg

[frenchmon]

Check out the email I got this morning.

"I think i might have it sold. he doesn't care if it works or not.
I don't have any receiver or speakers here to test it.sorry
i was just trying to sell my father's tt. he passed away
and i am getting rid of things. i will keep your e-mail in case he
doesn't want it."

Looks like I lost out on that one...but I do have something else in the works.

I think Peabody has a stock player but im not sure. I think he just recently replaced the cart....and I did listen to it...I was very impressed with it..I think I may just have to be forced to get a record player seeing my dad has all those blues albums at moms house seeing no one bothers with them. Robert Johnson...Elmore James....Sonn House, Howling Wolf, BB King...Albert King and much more.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

C'mon Frenchie, what's the budget?!? In the meantime you should begin cleaning those LP's and making sure they all have inner and outer sleeves.

Hey Frenchie, there is a classic question that analog types ask.

Is a "vintage", decently made TT on par with a brand new entry level from today? I'm not talking about the plastic crap, but I am referring to mass market type of tables from the 80's say. There are mixed opinions regarding this.

I will tell you that my Pioneer PL-516 is a super tough SOB. I recently decided to do everything in my power to make it great, or trash it. I was down to speed stability as my last thorn.

The PL-516 has a strobe, unusual for belt drive, and an adjustable speed dial. Inside the TT, on the motor control board are two adjustable pots for each 33 and 45 speed adjustment. I cleaned the heck out of those and all speed related contacts. Would you believe the speed went through the roof? Imagine my joy. Using the strobe, I am enjoying near perfect stability. I bet it's spec'ing better than when it left the factory.

Of course, it's not the greatest table. I have listened in depth to the Pro-Ject Debut's, and my Pioneer is on par with those for sure. You can get an older table and put the work in, to make it a competitive spinner.

[frenchmon]

C'mon Frenchie, what's the budget?!? In the meantime you should begin cleaning those LP's and making sure they all have inner and outer sleeves.

Hey Frenchie, there is a classic question that analog types ask.

Is a "vintage", decently made TT on par with a brand new entry level from today? I'm not talking about the plastic crap, but I am referring to mass market type of tables from the 80's say. There are mixed opinions regarding this.

I will tell you that my Pioneer PL-516 is a super tough SOB. I recently decided to do everything in my power to make it great, or trash it. I was down to speed stability as my last thorn.

The PL-516 has a strobe, unusual for belt drive, and an adjustable speed dial. Inside the TT, on the motor control board are two adjustable pots for each 33 and 45 speed adjustment. I cleaned the heck out of those and all speed related contacts. Would you believe the speed went through the roof? Imagine my joy. Using the strobe, I am enjoying near perfect stability. I bet it's spec'ing better than when it left the factory.

Of course, it's not the greatest table. I have listened in depth to the Pro-Ject Debut's, and my Pioneer is on par with those for sure. You can get an older table and put the work in, to make it a competitive spinner.

I am thinking hard about this....have been thinking hard about it for a while.

http://www.independentaudiovideo.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1000661

But to me..some of those old vintage tables look so much stout....so beautiful like that Marantz 6300. Now that you put it that way poppaC, I think I may continue to hunt one down.

O by the way...that girl emailed me and asked if I would pay $175 after she listed it at $125.....I cant do business with a person like that.

frenchmon
.

[02audionoob]

The problem with the Marantz 6300 is that it's worth more than the seller was asking for it, so you'd have to race people for it. They're probably beating down her door to get to it. Even if it doesn't work, they could part it out on eBay for more than the asking price. If it does work, that's a bonus.

[frenchmon]

The problem with the Marantz 6300 is that it's worth more than the seller was asking for it, so you'd have to race people for it. They're probably beating down her door to get to it. Even if it doesn't work, they could part it out on eBay for more than the asking price. If it does work, that's a bonus.

Well she tried to start a bidding war with me and the other guy....I was not about to get into that...It was'nt you was it???

But the more I look at some of that vintage stuff the more I seem to like them. Its like looking at a bunch of old houses...some of them have character. With your knowledge of vintage tables what do you think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-GARRARD-GT-25-BELT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-RECORD-/250627299837?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a5a8d19fd

and this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-TECHNICS-TURNTABLE-MODEL-SL-23-NEW-BELT-/160431257523?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255a72b7b3

I really like the way this one looks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fisher-Stereo-Turntable-Model-MT-6211-Vintage-/170481527845?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27b17dac25



frenchmon

[02audionoob]

If you want a Technics, I like this SL-1700MK2 much better...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-Direct-Drive-Sl-1700-MK2-Turntable-/200469534385?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2eacea56b1

I don't think I'd be impressed with that particular Garrard....and no...I haven't been shopping the St Louis Craigslist for turntables. I just found it like this...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&q=site%3Acraigslist.org+marantz+6300&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

[frenchmon]

IF you don't mind me asking...why do you like the SL-1700MK2 better and why not the Garrard or the Fisher? Do they have known problems?

Just joking by the way on you out bidding me...you have a very nice table already.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

The SL-1700MK2 is better quality all around than the SL-23. It's a suspended direct drive with the same arm as the revered SL-1200MK2. It's even got quartz-locked speed. Some Technics fans like it better than the SL-1200MK2 because of the suspended design. The turntables marked MK2 are in a bit of a different league than the SL-23. Take a look at their original sale prices here:

http://www.vintagetechnics.info/turntables.htm

Those 1970's Japanese belt-drive tables with the S-shaped arm are not bad...I wouldn't dismiss them. I just think you can usually do better with the direct-drives from that era.

[jrhymeammo]

I would look for a used Technics SL-1500 series. From what I understand, they can be had for considerably cheaper than 12XX mk2+. You can also get a mounting plate for different arms from SoundSupports in UK. I just received couple of plate, but no arms...

Whatever you decide to go with, I would defintely go with a used local TT and that's what you seem to want. Looks like you are getting some good advice so best of luck to ya.

Have Fun,
JRA

[poppachubby]

O by the way...that girl emailed me and asked if I would pay $175 after she listed it at $125.....I cant do business with a person like that.

frenchmon
.

Monkey business indeed. I don't care for that either. Like I said, plenty of comparable TT's out there.

I think everyone is waiting for your magical budget number, then it's off to the races. Again, the cart is covered so we can focus solely on the table. Sometimes you get lucky and it may have a decent, trustworthy cart installed.

I'm excited for you and can't wait to be a part of the process.

[Mr Peabody]

I had an old Pioneer PL-51 for years. It quit spinning one day so I bought a flashy new Technics Quartz Locked direct drive table. I transfered the cartridge from the Pioneer to the Technics. The Technics sound was so inferior to the Pioneer I took the Technics back and had the PL-51 repaired. It gave good service for several years. I eventually sold it and as far as I know still is going. I've always been skeptical of Technics being on par with other good tables because I haven't heard anything since my experience to change my mind. I always wanted to compare a 1200 but I really suspect it's fame is from the DJ side of things and not sound quality. In fact, it's model being used in an episode of Everyone Hate's Chris as a DJ table further instills my theory. When I worked in sales we sold some DJ tables and they sometimes cost more than the hi fi brands we had but the price wasn't based on sound it was mostly features and durability.

If I were to take a chance on a vintage table I wouldn't hesitate to try another Pioneer or my preference would be Dual.

With that being said my Rega is on an entirely higher level than my old Pioneer was. My P3 is totally stock. They don't "wow" with their looks but they do sound good. When I still had my PL-51 I borrowed a P2 and it was that ear opening experience that spurred me on to buy a better table and to continue with my vinyl.

Frenchmon, just drop the LP's over to my house and that way you don't have to worry about getting a table and all the hassle. Some of those sellers on CL have to be nuts. I had a guy wanting to sell a bunch of CD's for $1 each and I picked about 30 off his list and he said he'd hang on to them for me but when I tried to buy them he kept standing me up. I mean why bother if you aren't going to follow through?

[frenchmon]

I would look for a used Technics SL-1500 series. From what I understand, they can be had for considerably cheaper than 12XX mk2+. You can also get a mounting plate for different arms from SoundSupports in UK. I just received couple of plate, but no arms...

Whatever you decide to go with, I would defintely go with a used local TT and that's what you seem to want. Looks like you are getting some good advice so best of luck to ya.

Have Fun,
JRA

Thanks JRA...and by the way....I've seen your gear over on the audiogon site....just wonderful, nice stuff.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Monkey business indeed. I don't care for that either. Like I said, plenty of comparable TT's out there.

I think everyone is waiting for your magical budget number, then it's off to the races. Again, the cart is covered so we can focus solely on the table. Sometimes you get lucky and it may have a decent, trustworthy cart installed.

I'm excited for you and can't wait to be a part of the process.

I dont think I want to spend any more than $600 claims. The more I look at the vintage tables the more I see character...but I guess character wont tell you much about how it performs and sounds.

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks JRA...and by the way....I've seen your gear over on the audiogon site....just wonderful, nice stuff.

frenchmon

Thanks.
I'm going to visit a local audio guy tomorrow, and he just received the Clearaudio Concept with Benz cartridge with tons of cool stuff. Maybe it'll make me rething about DD TT.

You may want to keep your eyes open on below link:
I don't a TT, but it should pop up once in a while. You live in much better area than I do, so you should get lucky with a bit of patience.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?ZIPC=63&submit=Go

JRA

[frenchmon]

I had an old Pioneer PL-51 for years. It quit spinning one day so I bought a flashy new Technics Quartz Locked direct drive table. I transfered the cartridge from the Pioneer to the Technics. The Technics sound was so inferior to the Pioneer I took the Technics back and had the PL-51 repaired. It gave good service for several years. I eventually sold it and as far as I know still is going. I've always been skeptical of Technics being on par with other good tables because I haven't heard anything since my experience to change my mind. I always wanted to compare a 1200 but I really suspect it's fame is from the DJ side of things and not sound quality. In fact, it's model being used in an episode of Everyone Hate's Chris as a DJ table further instills my theory. When I worked in sales we sold some DJ tables and they sometimes cost more than the hi fi brands we had but the price wasn't based on sound it was mostly features and durability.

If I were to take a chance on a vintage table I wouldn't hesitate to try another Pioneer or my preference would be Dual.

With that being said my Rega is on an entirely higher level than my old Pioneer was. My P3 is totally stock. They don't "wow" with their looks but they do sound good. When I still had my PL-51 I borrowed a P2 and it was that ear opening experience that spurred me on to buy a better table and to continue with my vinyl.

Frenchmon, just drop the LP's over to my house and that way you don't have to worry about getting a table and all the hassle. Some of those sellers on CL have to be nuts. I had a guy wanting to sell a bunch of CD's for $1 each and I picked about 30 off his list and he said he'd hang on to them for me but when I tried to buy them he kept standing me up. I mean why bother if you aren't going to follow through?

I did see some nice vintage Pioneer tables, and I saw some really nice Dual tables...they have a huge following. But shoot Peabody...you got me thinking now that you say you had that ear opening from the Pioneer to the Rega.

My mom has been on me to come and get the albums out of her house. I think I need to so I can get them all cleaned.

Yes that girl was out of her mind...she tried to get me to pay more than what she advertised at. The Marantz table was nice. If she would have advertised at that price I may have still tried to buy it, but to do it the way she did was foolish.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Thanks.
I'm going to visit a local audio guy tomorrow, and he just received the Clearaudio Concept with Benz cartridge with tons of cool stuff. Maybe it'll make me rething about DD TT.

You may want to keep your eyes open on below link:
I don't a TT, but it should pop up once in a while. You live in much better area than I do, so you should get lucky with a bit of patience.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?ZIPC=63&submit=Go

JRA

How did you get all things in my area to show? thats great!

Thanks.

[02audionoob]

I dont think I want to spend any more than $600 claims. The more I look at the vintage tables the more I see character...but I guess character wont tell you much about how it performs and sounds.

frenchmon

I think I'd only go the vintage route if I were trying to keep the cost down to maybe $200 to $250. With a $600 budget, I'd absolutely go with something more current. I have a hard time believing any particular one of those 1970's DD tables is vastly superior to the others, so I'm not buying that a Pioneer thrashes a Technics. But...For my own tastes, I wouldn't consider either one if I had $600 to spend on it.

[jrhymeammo]

How did you get all things in my area to show? thats great!

Thanks.

No problem at all.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?0&1&form
Just type in the first 2 digits of your Zip under "Location".

I prefer to use this option when searching for fragile gear.

JRA

[poppachubby]

$600 is a great budget Byron. To give you an example, there's an Ariston RD-11s available locally for $400. Audiophile cared, it already has a wonderful AT cart on it. Still, with the extra 200 you could put a different cart on it OR buy some tweaks/accesories like a brush or a weight OR put it towards a new arm OR buy a wagon full of vinyl....

You get my drift? Don't forget the Genie is $499. Of course with a used deck, your money will take you further. I'll start checking out Agon...

[frenchmon]

$600 is a great budget Byron. To give you an example, there's an Ariston RD-11s available locally for $400. Audiophile cared, it already has a wonderful AT cart on it. Still, with the extra 200 you could put a different cart on it OR buy some tweaks/accesories like a brush or a weight OR put it towards a new arm OR buy a wagon full of vinyl....

You get my drift? Don't forget the Genie is $499. Of course with a used deck, your money will take you further. I'll start checking out Agon...

You know poppaC...Im kinda torn about this TT thing. I've heard from a dealer and I've heard from you guys and some say if its your first table its better to go vintage and then move from there and others say don't waist your time with vintage. so I have to really rethink this thing.

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

I've posted a Agon link, but I would like to know what your budget is.
If I were you, I wouldn't get a new $500+ TT for your first TT (in long time). Why spend substantial sum when you are not sure analog is what you want to pursue.

Get a $100 deck with stable speed control and a rigid tonearm. You can always modify it later down the road by applying silly puddy to the bottom to reduce resonance if needed. DIY tweak is always exciting with analog and results are often obvious and rewarding. Match it with a sub $100 MM cart with an elliptical stylus and it should let you know more of what the analog is capabile of.

Have Fun,
JRA

[frenchmon]

I've posted a Agon link, but I would like to know what your budget is.
If I were you, I wouldn't get a new $500+ TT for your first TT (in long time). Why spend substantial sum when you are not sure analog is what you want to pursue.

Get a $100 deck with stable speed control and a rigid tonearm. You can always modify it later down the road by applying silly puddy to the bottom to reduce resonance if needed. DIY tweak is always exciting with analog and results are often obvious and rewarding. Match it with a sub $100 MM cart with an elliptical stylus and it should let you know more of what the analog is capabile of.

Have Fun,
JRA

$600 bucks but I think I am going to take the vintage way first to see if I like it as you suggested .

A local guy has a old pioneer he wants me to look at and selling for 70 bucks. What your link?


frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Do you know a model number for the Pioneer?
The link I was talking about was the one from my previous post.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?ZIPC=63&submit=Go

If it's vintage it'll be nice if it has a working strobe. Some sellers will tell you that you just need to replace a belt to bring it to correct speed, but there are other reasons why they haven't simply replaced its belt...

Best of Luck,
JRA

[02audionoob]

I think for someone with a nice system and a discerning ear trying to see what analog can do requires a good analog setup. Can you truly see what analog can do with an old budget turntable?

[Mr Peabody]

I'm with 02AN on this, you can't really see the potential by buying entry level. I was about to sell off my LP's and analog. My Pioneer was good but not as good as my Krell CDP at the time. I borrowed the P2 and it totally changed my mind. I didn't realize vinyl could sound that good.

[jrhymeammo]

But he really doesn't have other TT to compare it to. I guess it's just a personal preference, but if frenchmon like what $100 TT offers, then he will certainly step up the ladder and go with a solid $500 deck. If I was to spend $500 on a TT, I would make sure my money is well spent on a supplied tonearm.

If I was to start all over again, I would not go for a $100 TT, but I already know analog is something I want to pursue.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.

Others may have a different view but me personally if the turntable wasn't on par with what ever my current digital rig was it would be a waste of money because I wouldn't listen to it. That's why I sold off all my cassettes and deck. By "on par" I mean at least high enough fidelity I would enjoy it enough to be an alternative to CD. Frenchmon for the most part is a serious listener, not one to just have background music. He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.

[jrhymeammo]

I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.

He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.

I think you've helped me solve it.

[poppachubby]

A local guy has a old pioneer he wants me to look at and selling for 70 bucks.

frenchmon


What's the model number Byron?

As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.

However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.

The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.

I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.

[frenchmon]

I think for someone with a nice system and a discerning ear trying to see what analog can do requires a good analog setup. Can you truly see what analog can do with an old budget turntable?

I dont know noob, but I really love the way some of those old players look. Some of them in my opinion have such character. Look at these tables....they are beautiful in my opinion.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3259/113232photobighitachiht.jpg (http://img168.imageshack.us/i/113232photobighitachiht.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3074/3242photobiglencob52bt2.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/3242photobiglencob52bt2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2528/1571pictbigmarantz6350b.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/1571pictbigmarantz6350b.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/224/1658pictbigmarantztt100.jpg (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/1658pictbigmarantztt100.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/250/62pictbigdualcs5000b305.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/i/62pictbigdualcs5000b305.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5981/648pictbigjvcvl8b315988.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/648pictbigjvcvl8b315988.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6792/1981pictbigtechnicssl10.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/1981pictbigtechnicssl10.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5259/1716pictbigpanasonicsl1.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/1716pictbigpanasonicsl1.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3562/825pictbigpioneerpl50b3.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/825pictbigpioneerpl50b3.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Now I've read in places that these old decks sound good when given a little love, but they are not audiophile quality. But they are just stunning with good looks in my opinion...so much character. To me the Music Halls, Pro-ject, Rega's, Denon's, are whatever today just dont look as good, but they may sound better than the old players...i guess not enough audiophile sound quality....whatever that means.

Peabody and I last night listened to an old VPI table...this thing was huge....I dont know about MrP, but to me that thing sounded so good....boy did it sound good. IT was hook up to a Musical Designs tubed preamp, a Musical Designs hybrid tubed amp, Gallo speakers...Analysis Plus speaker cable and inter connects. It sounded good....I told MrPeabody I could just sit on that guys couch all night and just listened to music.


The guy who had it was a dealer of Music Hall and he said he could get the Music Hall 2.2 for $342 buck....


But I saw an old Marantz 6300 that works but needs some love...



The guy across the street from me is a wood worker...he may be able to help me bring it back to its glory days

Dont know what Im going to do as of yet.

I called the guy about the Pioneer on craigslist, he was not in....he has sense then removed it....I forgot which model it was.

frechmon

[frenchmon]

What's the model number Byron?

As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.

However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.

The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.

I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.

poppaC..you have a few vintage players....a Realistic and a Technics...what is the sound like? Would you describe them as having audiophile quality sound?

The old vintage VPI table Peabody and I listen to last night was a highend quality table back in the day and will still command big bucks today, so I dont think its a good standard to judge the lesser vintage tables with. So is yours an audiophile quality sound and what the heck is audiophile sound any ways?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Byron, after tons of love my Pioneer is the best i have. It's not even close to the VPI you listened to. Forget about "audiophile" approval and just start looking at design quality. The better tables are spec'd to the highest tolerances possible. All parts are made to perform flawlessly, allowing the table to spin perfectly, while experiencing no vibration or interference.

Appearance has nothing to do with it. It should be the last consideration. Some of the newer tables employ function BEFORE form. As a result they can be viewed by some as ugly. OIne thing's for sure, they don't sound ugly.

If you want my opinion, combine everything together to find the table that's right for you. Looks and performance in a vintage deck. Your assessments are on par for a VPI table. I think with the right set up, which doesn't have to break your wallet, you will be dropping your CDP at Goodwill. Nothing sounds as good as a mint condition Jazz LP through a tough system, NOTHING!! Trust me, you haven't heard what a tenor sax can sound like through your gear yet...

How about these, keep in mind prices vary depending on the arm, cart and mods. These can be found inside your budget....

Systemdek IIx

http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audio/systemdek.jpg

Ariston RD-11s

http://www.zenn.com.sg/RD11s.JPG

Acoustic Research ES-1

http://www.vinylnirvana.com/gallery/ar_es1_01.jpg

Thorens TD-160

http://www.thorens-info.de/Td160_tp16.jpg

[jrhymeammo]

I have a loaner Thorens TD150mk2 with custom plinth right now. It is matched with my modded RB-250 with usual gear. This table is very very good. The motor puts out audible noise, but is not audible thru my speakers. I'm enjoying organic music I used to relish.
The only problem I see is that I'm already scheming to buy this from him, but I have about 2 weeks to play with it so I'll try to stay cool...

If you have access to a pile of clean LP, why not get a TT? Music is music, right?

[02audionoob]

I feel like I had to decide whether I was buying audio equipment or furniture. My turntable isn't anything special and it won't win any beauty pageants, but I wouldn't trade it for a Marantz 6300, a Dual CS5000, a Pioneer PL-50 or probably any other of those mid-fi beauty queens. I just don't think it takes much to beat them, for my taste. I'll definitely admit the ones Chubbs posted are nice and are good, but I can't get sound I like out of just anything with wood grain and a sexy S-shaped arm.

[frenchmon]

Byron, after tons of love my Pioneer is the best i have. It's not even close to the VPI you listened to. Forget about "audiophile" approval and just start looking at design quality. The better tables are spec'd to the highest tolerances possible. All parts are made to perform flawlessly, allowing the table to spin perfectly, while experiencing no vibration or interference.

Appearance has nothing to do with it. It should be the last consideration. Some of the newer tables employ function BEFORE form. As a result they can be viewed by some as ugly. OIne thing's for sure, they don't sound ugly.

If you want my opinion, combine everything together to find the table that's right for you. Looks and performance in a vintage deck. Your assessments are on par for a VPI table. I think with the right set up, which doesn't have to break your wallet, you will be dropping your CDP at Goodwill. Nothing sounds as good as a mint condition Jazz LP through a tough system, NOTHING!! Trust me, you haven't heard what a tenor sax can sound like through your gear yet...

How about these, keep in mind prices vary depending on the arm, cart and mods. These can be found inside your budget....

Systemdek IIx

http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audio/systemdek.jpg

Ariston RD-11s

http://www.zenn.com.sg/RD11s.JPG

Acoustic Research ES-1

http://www.vinylnirvana.com/gallery/ar_es1_01.jpg

Thorens TD-160

http://www.thorens-info.de/Td160_tp16.jpg

Wow poppaC...those tables are beautiful with lots of character. Thanks for your help. BTW last night when hanging with Peabody at our friends house...he fired up his vintage VPI deck (which he will be putting on audiogon soon,) and played an old Ray Brown trio LP imported from Japan. Mr Peabody noticed right away how smooth and quiet it was....it was a thing of beauty.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I have a loaner Thorens TD150mk2 with custom plinth right now. It is matched with my modded RB-250 with usual gear. This table is very very good. The motor puts out audible noise, but is not audible thru my speakers. I'm enjoying organic music I used to relish.
The only problem I see is that I'm already scheming to buy this from him, but I have about 2 weeks to play with it so I'll try to stay cool...

If you have access to a pile of clean LP, why not get a TT? Music is music, right?

Im really leaning that way...I have to get my dads old blues albums for moms house. The vintage VPI table we listen to last night had a hum you could hear from your sitting position. But once you played music, the hum disappeared....nothing but musical bliss after that.

Can you upload any pictures of that table??? I want to see its character and beauty.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I feel like I had to decide whether I was buying audio equipment or furniture. My turntable isn't anything special and it won't win any beauty pageants, but I wouldn't trade it for a Marantz 6300, a Dual CS5000, a Pioneer PL-50 or probably any other of those mid-fi beauty queens. I just don't think it takes much to beat them, for my taste. I'll definitely admit the ones Chubbs posted are nice and are good, but I can't get sound I like out of just anything with wood grain and a sexy S-shaped arm.

Thats my fear noob....while they are sexy I want good sound as well....man I love sound! Why cant you get sound out of one? It cant be the wood because the vintage VPI last night was wood and had great sound. So why not sound from vintage? And what table are you speaking of....the Music Hall? If so that's one of the better looking ones of contemporary tables....IF I had to buy new...that would be it...she not as sexy as vintage, but she got appeal.

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Im really leaning that way...I have to get my dads old blues albums for moms house. The vintage VPI table we listen to last night had a hum you could hear from your sitting position. But once you played music, the hum disappeared....nothing but musical bliss after that.

Can you upload any pictures of that table??? I want to see its character and beauty.

frenchmon

Did you state somewhere that VPI was matched with a Grado cart? Grado hums with certain TT so not sure if that was the problem. It could've been grounding or cabling issue.
Do you know which VPI it was?

Here is a pic. I wish I could say it's mine but it's not.
6886

[poppachubby]

Beauty JRA!

Frenchie you could get a used Music Hall like noob's for under $500. Frankly I think that would be a great way to go. It's a fantastic performer and the type of table you could live with for quite some time. They are also upgrade friendly.

I am currently saving for a TT upgrade. Still not 100% on where I'll end up.

I have worked hard on my Pioneer, like all of my tables. I can say it's dead quiet and spins with incredible stablilty. Combined with the rest of my chain and a sweet LP, it's got a fantastic sound easily equivelant to the entry level Music Halls and Pro-Jects of the world. My non-audio friends "can't believe it's not a CD". But then again, what do they know?!? Lol.

Many people enjoy those tables but my advice to you is spend less or spend more. That price point is an odd one in the new category. As I said earlier, going used for a bit more will net you a much nicer machine.

Don't forget to consider your phono stage and cart in this deal...

[frenchmon]

Did you state somewhere that VPI was matched with a Grado cart? Grado hums with certain TT so not sure if that was the problem. It could've been grounding or cabling issue.
Do you know which VPI it was?

Here is a pic. I wish I could say it's mine but it's not.
6886

Pardon my french..but...DAM! wow! Theres nothing vintage about that table...what year?

Boy that thing is sexy beautiful!

I think MrP may have said it had a Grado cart...if so, then I will pass it on to my friend who has the VPI.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Beauty JRA!

Frenchie you could get a used Music Hall like noob's for under $500. Frankly I think that would be a great way to go. It's a fantastic performer and the type of table you could live with for quite some time. They are also upgrade friendly.

I am currently saving for a TT upgrade. Still not 100% on where I'll end up.

I have worked hard on my Pioneer, like all of my tables. I can say it's dead quiet and spins with incredible stablilty. Combined with the rest of my chain and a sweet LP, it's got a fantastic sound easily equivelant to the entry level Music Halls and Pro-Jects of the world. My non-audio friends "can't believe it's not a CD". But then again, what do they know?!? Lol.

Many people enjoy those tables but my advice to you is spend less or spend more. That price point is an odd one in the new category. As I said earlier, going used for a bit more will net you a much nicer machine.

Don't forget to consider your phono stage and cart in this deal...

I just spoke with the gentlemen who has the table for sale and he said its a pioneer PL-10

heres a picture of one like it.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/348/p10004126293943.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/p10004126293943.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

He said his is in mint condition...he also has a Rotel amp and some Snell Acoustic speakers....im to meet with him thursday. Do you think its a piece of junk??? He wants $70 bucks...to much??? Personally I think I can do better than that.

poppaC, my friend is a Music Hall dealer...he may be able to get that table a little less than $500. He also thinks I should not wast my time with vintage tables.

[jrhymeammo]

Theres nothing vintage about that table...what year?

frenchmon

I believe it's from 1969-1973.

[poppachubby]

He said his is in mint condition...he also has a Rotel amp and some Snell Acoustic speakers....im to meet with him thursday. Do you think its a piece of junk??? He wants $70 bucks...to much??? Personally I think I can do better than that.

poppaC, my friend is a Music Hall dealer...he may be able to get that table a little less than $500. He also thinks I should not wast my time with vintage tables.

The PL-10 isn't a piece of junk, but you should move on. If he is including a reasonable cart, $70 wouldn't be the worst price if it's mint.

As far as your buddy's advice, I sort of agree. In your case, with minimal experience and knowledge, it will take alot of work to get a vintage up to snuff. There is dollar value in not having to muck around, and just being able to "plug and play". I think a vintage table could be satisfying, but only if said effort is put in.

On the other hand, don't let him talk you into a 2.2. Check out the Genie I posted in the beginning of this thread. Much better table. They've been making them for years in Europe, wildly popular, and now are available here.

The used MMF 5 and 5.1 go anywhere from $350 - 600. You want a good deal? Buy this right now and be done with it....for life. Check out the cart too. I have heard the G1012 on a Concept and it sounded amazing. Great value...offer him 650 if you're feeling spunky.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1277778624&/Music-Hall-MMF-5-1-Perfect-w-u

[frenchmon]

I believe it's from 1969-1973.

Well I guess im just wrong...it looks more 2000ish. I hope you get it...im sure it sounds as good as it looks. Its not all stock is it? Its got to be a mod.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

Thats my fear noob....while they are sexy I want good sound as well....man I love sound! Why cant you get sound out of one? It cant be the wood because the vintage VPI last night was wood and had great sound. So why not sound from vintage? And what table are you speaking of....the Music Hall? If so that's one of the better looking ones of contemporary tables....IF I had to buy new...that would be it...she not as sexy as vintage, but she got appeal.

frenchmon

I don't object to the wood. In fact, I like it. It's just not enough to sell me on a turntable. Under the wood veneer is usually MDF, just like under the paint on my MMF-5.

I've owned three Marantz turntables, including the 6300, and it's just not the same sound as the MMF-5. It's debatable which is better. To me, the difference between the common direct-drive turntables and the MMF-5 is like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar.

[frenchmon]

I don't object to the wood. In fact, I like it. It's just not enough to sell me on a turntable. Under the wood veneer is usually MDF, just like under the paint on my MMF-5.

I've owned three Marantz turntables, including the 6300, and it's just not the same sound as the MMF-5. It's debatable which is better. To me, the difference between the common direct-drive turntables and the MMF-5 is like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar.

Well I like electric guitar...but I love acoustic guitar. Which one says vintage and which one says contemporary ? BTW noob...thanks for all your insight.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

Well I like electric guitar...but I love acoustic guitar. Which one says vintage and which one says contemporary ? BTW noob...thanks for all your insight.

frenchmon

You're quite welcome. I'd say you can get both with the old stuff and both with the new stuff. If I went with vintage, I'd probably look at some of the stuff posted here...Thorens, Systemdek, etc. In one limited listen to a Linn LP12 a few months ago I'd say I was very impressed. That's a vintage turntable I'd love to have. They're not cheap, though, and they require some maintenance and expertise.

[poppachubby]

Wonderful vintage table by Oracle, masters of analog.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1278606806

[frenchmon]

Noob,jrhymeammo and PoppaC.....Well I was going to buy a used Dual TT of craigslist, but wife talked me into getting a demo Music Hall on clearance at MusicDirect.com. so if I like playing records again, i will upgrade to a better TT...if not then I will sell it

frenchmon..

[poppachubby]

Which model, 2.2?

[frenchmon]

actually I was looking at a dual turntable on caigslist when my wife placed a printout of a 2.1 on my lap and said I should order it....I had my reservations at first seeing it had mixed reviews...mostly good ones, but some complained about the cheap needle and the tonearm....but when she offered to paid for it i was willing to take the chance seeing it was discounted on Music direct. So I may be leaning on you and noob to help me to get the best out of it...which may not be much...but maybe enough to see if I want to go this route.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

It will do fine, particularily as a "first" table. I was thinkin more of long term satisfaction when I was speaking against it.

AudioGon has some wonderful stuff right now. That Oracle Alexandria would absolutely destroy the 2.2 and give an MMF 5 a run for it's money.

Check this out, I thought of you right away. This is one of Pioneer's most revered vintage tables, the arm is one of their best. It was on sale for $350, but of course has now sold. Still with the box, minty!! the Oracle is still available, and I am franatically trying to put together an extra 200 bucks to snatch it up.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1278199649

http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1273015566.jpg

[poppachubby]

....but when she offered to paid for it...
frenchmon


I have been moved to tears. This is the best love story I have ever read. Take that woman and give her a hug for me, and every other audiophile in the entire world. Mrs. Frenchie, we salute you...

http://www.midwaysailor.com/military/salute.jpg

[audio amateur]

Have you seen the new Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 Genie? For $499 it would appear to compete beyond it's price. Lots of trickle down technology applied to it. I'm thinking hard about getting one. My local dealer will be getting a couple in soon, I can't wait to hear it.
That's a terrible price for the Genie. It sells here for the equivalent of 280 USD, including tax...

[poppachubby]

That's a terrible price for the Genie. It sells here for the equivalent of 280 USD, including tax...

Should I form a list of all the products that Europeans "pay too much for". The Genie has been succesfully selling in Europe for some time. If you want to understand it's value in N. America, firstly look at it's standing in the Pro-Ject line up. Then, consider all the trickle down technology it contains, and compare it to other tables in it's range. You can step up one price class and see that it can compete with some of those tables.

[frenchmon]

I have been moved to tears. This is the best love story I have ever read. Take that woman and give her a hug for me, and every other audiophile in the entire world. Mrs. Frenchie, we salute you...

http://www.midwaysailor.com/military/salute.jpg


LOL...you crack me up.

[frenchmon]

I think Ajani talked about the price difference in different places a while back. It has more todo with the region rather teh product it self....if they can get more here than there...the market will show it.

[frenchmon]

It will do fine, particularily as a "first" table. I was thinkin more of long term satisfaction when I was speaking against it.

AudioGon has some wonderful stuff right now. That Oracle Alexandria would absolutely destroy the 2.2 and give an MMF 5 a run for it's money.

Check this out, I thought of you right away. This is one of Pioneer's most revered vintage tables, the arm is one of their best. It was on sale for $350, but of course has now sold. Still with the box, minty!! the Oracle is still available, and I am franatically trying to put together an extra 200 bucks to snatch it up.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1278199649

http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1273015566.jpg

isnt she lovely...isnt she wonderful!

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon, you must be turning on the charm and living right :)

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, you must be turning on the charm and living right :)

I dont think she sees it like that...I get fussed out every day around here for no reason...

[poppachubby]

When are you expecting the table Frenchie? Have you got the LPs yet? I am excited for you...

There are some great re-issues coming out in 45rpm. Tons of jazz classics. The 45 rpm re-issue is supposed to be the cats meow.

Maybe for Xmas your wife can get you this...http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001LM5TUC/?tag=hashemian-20

...or maybe you can buy it for me.

[frenchmon]

When are you expecting the table Frenchie? Have you got the LPs yet? I am excited for you...

There are some great re-issues coming out in 45rpm. Tons of jazz classics. The 45 rpm re-issue is supposed to be the cats meow.

Maybe for Xmas your wife can get you this...http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001LM5TUC/?tag=hashemian-20

...or maybe you can buy it for me.

I have Giant steps on CD. I can send you a copy if you tell me how. Drop me a PM...The table is to be in today...I will go and get the albums next week...mom lives a little distance from me.

How do I go about chosing a cart? Is it by the tracing force? whats the difference between MM and MC carts? Where can I go online to educate my self?

[frenchmon]

Another question for you vinyl junkies...I have built in phone on my preamp...but would I be better served with an external phone stage

[jrhymeammo]

Another question for you vinyl junkies...I have built in phone on my preamp...but would I be better served with an external phone stage

http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rc1090_multi.pdf
According to the manual on page 8, it seems your preamp is capable of all types of cartridge, including low output moving coil. But if you go with LOMC, noise may become an issue, and LOMC cartridges tend to be expensive.
Does your TT come with the Tracker cartridge?

I would stick to your internal phonostage for now, and save up for a good external unit down the road. There are tons of sub $200 external units, but I would want to make sure it's an upgrade and not a lateral move. If TT comes premounted, then forgot about upgrade, just enjoy music for now, my friend. We'll be here when you need to upgrade after you had time to break'er in.

Peace

[poppachubby]

Agreed, use your current pre amp. Does the table have a cart with it? I told you I will send you the Ortofon if you want. Budget cart, but a good place to start. Like JRA said, you need to start listening and get an ear for vinyl. I wouldn't drop too much to begin. Once your tastes develop, your ear will know what's what. From this point you can seek out a better cart or stage.

I have the Ortofon OMB-10 for you. It's virtually new, with about 50 hours on it. Perfect, broken in so you can get right to listening with it's full potential. Remember the stylus is upgradable. The OM-20 and OM-30 stylii represent some pretty sweet fidelity. I wouldn't worry about MC right now, perhaps start reading about high output moving coil (HOMC).

To give you some perspective, my local shop equips their Pro-Ject Debut tables with an Ortofon OM-10.

Some good reading...

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?audio/faq.html#vinyl

[poppachubby]

Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.

[frenchmon]

http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rc1090_multi.pdf
According to the manual on page 8, it seems your preamp is capable of all types of cartridge, including low output moving coil. But if you go with LOMC, noise may become an issue, and LOMC cartridges tend to be expensive.
Does your TT come with the Tracker cartridge?

I would stick to your internal phonostage for now, and save up for a good external unit down the road. There are tons of sub $200 external units, but I would want to make sure it's an upgrade and not a lateral move. If TT comes premounted, then forgot about upgrade, just enjoy music for now, my friend. We'll be here when you need to upgrade after you had time to break'er in.

Peace

Thanks for the advice about the phono stage...i can wait until I get use to the vinyl sound. I think this is going to be different from the days back in the 80's. But I have read a few reviews that said to dump the cheap cart that comes with the table...got any recommendations?

[frenchmon]

Agreed, use your current pre amp. Does the table have a cart with it? I told you I will send you the Ortofon if you want. Budget cart, but a good place to start. Like JRA said, you need to start listening and get an ear for vinyl. I wouldn't drop too much to begin. Once your tastes develop, your ear will know what's what. From this point you can seek out a better cart or stage.

I have the Ortofon OMB-10 for you. It's virtually new, with about 50 hours on it. Perfect, broken in so you can get right to listening with it's full potential. Remember the stylus is upgradable. The OM-20 and OM-30 stylii represent some pretty sweet fidelity. I wouldn't worry about MC right now, perhaps start reading about high output moving coil (HOMC).

To give you some perspective, my local shop equips their Pro-Ject Debut tables with an Ortofon OM-10.

Some good reading...


http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?audio/faq.html#vinyl

OK...I'll take the cart poppaC...and I betcha santa will be good to you christmas. Still got my address? The reviews said it comes with a cheap cart.

[frenchmon]

Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.

I cant wait. I remember going from playing records in the 80's to C, was an eye opener back the...sold all my albums, and I had a lots of albums back then....we use to keep them in those "peaches" crates. Now I am doing the reverse. Wonder if it will make me get rid of my CD's? LOL!

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hey Frenchie, Congrats on your excursion in the world of vinyl. I have the MMF 2.1 LE and it is a very nice starter table. I would say it is a small step above the Rega's and the Project entry level tables. I'm starting to look at an upgrade table now after about a year. So enjoy and give yourself a little while to get back into vinyl. The year has given me a chance to build up a small collection of 180 and 200 gram LP's that will only sound better on a better table.

[poppachubby]

Technically the OM-10 is "cheap". Let's see what arrives with it.

[02audionoob]

As far as I've seen, the mmf-2.1 ships with a Goldring Elan. That cartridge would probably give a presentation that is perhaps smooth and warm by comparison to most Ortofon cartridges. I would definitely give the Elan a try...especially since it will be mounted and aligned, already. I would think the Ortofon OM cartridges would be a good match for the 2.1's tonearm, if you like the Ortofon sound. I would imagine if I owned a 2.1, I'd never seriously consider an MC cartridge for it, unless maybe I'd consider a Denon DL-110. There are too many better MM options.

[frenchmon]

Hey Frenchie, Congrats on your excursion in the world of vinyl. I have the MMF 2.1 LE and it is a very nice starter table. I would say it is a small step above the Rega's and the Project entry level tables. I'm starting to look at an upgrade table now after about a year. So enjoy and give yourself a little while to get back into vinyl. The year has given me a chance to build up a small collection of 180 and 200 gram LP's that will only sound better on a better table.

Thanks Jack...it just arrived about 1/2hour ago.I think I will wait until tomorrow to assemble it seeing I dont have any albums at my home. What did the LE look like? Got any pictures of it? And what cart do you use? How is teh phono imput on the Onkyo?

[frenchmon]

Technically the OM-10 is "cheap". Let's see what arrives with it.

Its got a Music Hall tracker cart.

[frenchmon]

As far as I've seen, the mmf-2.1 ships with a Goldring Elan. That cartridge would probably give a presentation that is perhaps smooth and warm by comparison to most Ortofon cartridges. I would definitely give the Elan a try...especially since it will be mounted and aligned, already. I would think the Ortofon OM cartridges would be a good match for the 2.1's tonearm, if you like the Ortofon sound. I would imagine if I owned a 2.1, I'd never seriously consider an MC cartridge for it, unless maybe I'd consider a Denon DL-110. There are too many better MM options.

noob...kindly explain what the difference is and teh advantage is of OM cart, a MC cart, and a MM cart. And why would you go with a MM cart? Sorry...ima dummy.

[02audionoob]

noob...kindly explain what the difference is and teh advantage is of OM cart, a MC cart, and a MM cart. And why would you go with a MM cart? Sorry...ima dummy.

The Music Hall Tracker is a Goldring built to Music Hall's specs, so it should sound like a Goldring. Most budget cartridges are MM, with quite a few exceptions. They utilize a technology that in general produces less detail than MC. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The MM sound can often seem more relaxed that MC, on average. The Ortofon sound leans a little away from that, to some people's ears sounding maybe more like the MC cartridges than most MM cartridges.

The reason I might go with a MM cartridge is largely the multitude of options in the budget price range. For around $100 or less, you could have an Ortofon 2M Red, Ortofon OM-10, Nagaoka MP-11, Shure M97XE, Audio-Technica AT95E, Goldring Elan, etc. The closest to that price range among the MC cartridges is the Denon DL-110 at $139 and after that nothing is even all that close, except for the Denon DL-160 at $179 and the Ortofon MC1 at $175.

Also...Many of the MM cartridges weigh more and use lighter tracking forces than many of the MC cartridges...something that will probably match up better with the light tonearm on the mmf-2.1.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Thanks Jack...it just arrived about 1/2hour ago.I think I will wait until tomorrow to assemble it seeing I dont have any albums at my home. What did the LE look like? Got any pictures of it? And what cart do you use? How is teh phono imput on the Onkyo?

Can't seem to get the pictures loaded. It's the same as your table but the plinith is finished in a Ferrari Red color. I'm using the Tracker that came with the table. The Onkyo phono input only handles MM cartridges so I couldn't see putting a lot of money in a high dollar cart. When I upgrade, I'll stepup to a better cart. I did buy a level and a stylus brush and some good record sleeves.

[poppachubby]

Congrats Frenchie!! Make sure you find a nice spot for your new table. It's not suspended so it will be susceptible to vibrations. Clear and away from the speakers obviously, and not atop anything that is prone to vibrating. Your new word of the day....islolate!!

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output which means they have the benefit of Moving Coil but can be played through the MM input. Wylie and I were talking about those Saturday, not sure if you were tuned in to us during that time or enjoying the music. One would cost more than you paid for your current table though. I use Moving Magnet myself.

[poppachubby]

Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output

pffft...that's so post 81...;)

[Mr Peabody]

pffft...that's so post 81...;)

Quit whining like a little school girl.

[poppachubby]

Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output which means they have the benefit of Moving Coil but can be played through the MM input. Wylie and I were talking about those Saturday, not sure if you were tuned in to us during that time or enjoying the music. One would cost more than you paid for your current table though. I use Moving Magnet myself.

This decision shouldn't be based on cost ratios. The more important question is whether the arm and cart are a good match, and if the arm can exploit the carts full potential. I don't know the 2.1's arm, so I can't comment on a well suited HOMC. A good idea would be to contact Needle Doctor for advice.

The HOMC would be a great idea for someone in Frenchie's position. Unsure about vinyl, but has an experienced ear and requires a certain amount of fidelity. These carts are worlds beyond a typical MM, however not as capable as their MC cousins. I think the 2.1 will be too noisy for a proper MC cart.

SL-1200 owners are a great example of this. Ask a typical 1200 owner about his deck, he'll tell you the speed stability is king, but the arm not so much. At a minimum, these guys usually mod the stock arm, however, alot replace the arm altogether. From this point they'll put a fancy HOMC or MC cart on it.

There's a wonderful selection of these carts now, with a few like the Blue Point and DL-160 even having cult status already. Well worth the investment, if the conditions are ripe for it.

At roughly $180, some might argue that the Denon DL-160 is one of the best cartridge values out there.

[RGA]

The MM Carts typically reside in the budget arena and that is often why MC carts are said to be better (but they cost more) and like most things the more you pay the more you get. So yes a $2,000 MC cart will sound better than $150 MM cart but a $1000 MM cart will sound better than $400 MC cart.

My Cartridge sounds like an MC cart in most ways without some of the problemsrelated to picking up external noise or fussiness of set-up. It is Audio Note's top of the line MM cart and runs $1,200. For me for personal use it is an end of the road kind of cartridge. Moving up would be their entry level MC cart at about $3,000 where in their view is the beginning of where MC technology begins - and thye have tried every competing MC cart in the world.

The issue become about money. I can't speak for every turntable set-up of course - not at all - but going down the MC road and to do it better than the best MM carts will cost a ton. My dealer carries several of the best known turntables and carts and when they get into MC carts they also prefer to put them on better turntables - their favorite "budget" (chortle chortle) high end table is the Voyd Reference or old TT2 with three motor system. Used you'd probably pay $5,000.

It's a road I will look at but probably 10-15 years down the line. I would recommend against the Shure M97xE however. I had one for years - it is a very nice sounding cart for the money but it really doesn't let the star qualities of vinyl through. It has a kind of dead sound. Quiet and tracks great. Perhaps I am being unfair comparing it to my new cart at many times the price but the big improvement in the "jump factor" and live open presentation is startling and I can't go back. Maybe look at a Shure's top of the line MM as it might open up more.

[poppachubby]

Indeed Rich, things get murky when one must consider high end MM vs. MC. I have heard the 2M Black several times on three different tables, it was impressive in each case. I think most vinyl types view MM beneath MC, but on some occasions this isn't the case.

You didn't mention anything regarding HOMC. No thoughts on these?

[poppachubby]

Well Frenchie, looks like the arm is somewhat limited on this table. You will have to stick with lighter MM carts I think. The OM-10 would be great if you grow tired of the stock cart.

[frenchmon]

Well I went to moms and got the albums. I threw most of them out...to many scratches...dad did not take very good care of his music. I did manage to save a few. I found a few blues album that sounded good..one guy, Hound Dog Taylor sounded good even though it was a cheap record lable. I found an old album by Pebbie Snow and it too sounded very good. But the gem of the lot was an old Lonnie Smith album with Lee Morgan and Fathead Newman recorded on Blue Note...that thing sounded good. I also found a pretty good Dione Warwick album that sounded good. When you guys play vinyl, do you have to turn up the volume a little more to get a good out put? I did notice while the highs where not as detailed, Lee Morgan's trumpet as well as Fat Dave Newman sax sounded richer. THere is also a more pronounced bass.

PoppaC, I called Music Hall about the arm. It can be changed if I drill the hole out a bit, But according to the instruction book, I can change carts all the way up to 2grams. The way it is it sounds good, but you know me...I like to tweak things. I've heard that an acrylic platter over at acoustic sounds improves the sound as well as a speed box. The 2.2 has the up graded arm...the same as the 5.1

This table is not as bad as some of the reviews said, but what do I know...the last table I owned was around 1985 or so.

[jrhymeammo]

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=9.5&submit=Submit

Frenchie,
I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.

e.g. -
5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.

* Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.

A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...

Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?

[02audionoob]

Dynamic compliance can be a difficult spec to nail down. Many US and UK manufacturers seem to publish only a static compliance number, which can differ from dynamic compliance by as much as 2x. The Japanese manufacturers seem to publish a compliance number at 100 Hz, which can differ from 10 Hz by as much as 0.5x.

Based on the chart at Vinyl Engine, a Goldring Elektra (which looks like the Music Hall tracker) would fall at around 10 Hz on the chart only if you assume its static compliance of 16 could be used in place of a dynamic number. If you assume dynamic to be half of static you'd be off into the orange area. That's why I think the OM-10 is perhaps a better match than the cartridge that shipped with the turntable...unless you're one of those who believes the resonant frequency should be up around 15 Hz.

[poppachubby]

Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...


Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.

[frenchmon]

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=9.5&submit=Submit

Frenchie,
I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.

e.g. -
5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.

* Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.

A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...

Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?

Many of them where scratch so bad, I put them in the garage to go out with the trash But I did manage to save about 30 of them. Is there any tricks to cleaning them? or just plain old water and a cloth?

[frenchmon]

Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...

Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Use 3 to 1, distilled water to isopropyl alcohol with a drop of dish soap.

[frenchmon]

Ok..thanks. going to get some grub and then headed to the two channel.

=====

[jrhymeammo]

Poppa,

If you are not using a record cleaning machine, with a rinse cycle I'm not sure about using a drop of dish soup. If anything I would stay the hell away from it. How can it not leave residue over time?
I haven't tried it myself, but it just doesn't make any sense to me...

If you feel like adding something other than H2O and Isopro, you may want to look into Photoflow.

JRA

[poppachubby]

JRA, I should have included quantities. I mix a 4L jug of distilled water when I make a batch, I put a drop into that. Some people like Woolite...

I am not alone... http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/fluids.html

[poppachubby]

Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.

frenchmon

I'll be interested to see how long until your ears REALLY start picking up on the differences. You will find that you don't need to try too hard, it will just come from time spent.

One area I enjoy analog over digital is with drums. Considering a CDP on par with your 2.1, cymbals tend to be a nightmare. Some recordings I can't even listen to, the ride cymbal sounds like one extended hiss. You may find with vinyl more definition and percussive groove with cymbals, also top end will have a more realistic shimmer.

Snare drum is another aspect where a CDP can be too forward or bright, giving the snare a really attacking and harsh tone.

The last thing I find is that my analog rig images a drummer "better", at least to my taste. The CDP will be doing fine, until the drummer takes a solo. Then all of a sudden his kit is on top of the saxophonist and he is practically bashing you in the head with his sticks.

Of course, your digital set up exceeds your analog. You may find the opposite is true. BTW, I have "The Meeting", good stuff. If you want a good example of what I'm talking about, listen to some Police on CD and then vinyl, see what you think. Stewart Copeland is capable of a symphony with his right hand.

[02audionoob]

I was using a drop or two of dishwashing detergent for a while, with no noticeable residue. I have since changed my surfactant to Jet-Dry. Here's how I dry mine...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3520/4016158122_af02bb6198.jpg

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Noob,

What model of Dry Vac did you go with?
I was thinking about getting one to put inside of a simple enclosure, but I was worried about its high intesity suction. I figured a simple 1 Gallon unit would be sufficient, but I'm affraid it would terrorize the surface.

Thanks,
JRA

[02audionoob]

That's the 2-gallon Craftsman Clean-n-Carry. I think it's about the same power as an upright vacuum.

[frenchmon]

What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?

[frenchmon]

I can kinda get a feel for vinyl and what it possibly can do. But im not really feeling it with the albums I have. Many of them you can hear the very subtle scratches and pops in the music...not loud and hardly noticeable but they are there and I can hear it. Do you guys have scratches and pops??? Is that just one of the things that come with todays vinylhobbyist? Also the best recording I have is Phebie Snow so I think i can kinda see what it can do for me.. I also noticed many of yester years albums are bad recordings, just like a bad recorded CD.

I like the bass and drums that I hear, but the cymbals are rolled off. I hate rolled off highs. So I think a cart as well as new albums are in order. What is this stuff about 180G albums? And what brand of cart will still give me good bass, drums and brass without rolling of the highs? Do most of you guys just by different carts and have like a collection? Is todays muisc recorded on Albums better than some of the stuff recorded back in the day? I've read even tho the 2.1 is an entry level deck to test the waters of vinyl, that its better than many of yester years entry models models like the Maantz I was trying to get...so I think I need to just get new albums??? a new Cart??? a new phonoamp? I know I can get better sound than what I have...MrPs Rega 2 sounded pretty good, as well as my friend who has the vintage VPI table.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?

Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.

A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.

Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.

In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.

[frenchmon]

Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.

A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.

Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.

In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.

Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.

frenchmon

No problem. As you might have noticed, I love this stuff...as do jra and poppa.

[poppachubby]

Treat yourself to a couple of brand new albums, then make some assessments. Sounds like the LPs you have are far gone. I don't buy anything that's too beat up. As a rule, most of my LP's have no clicking or popping. Be selective when buying used, and take excellent care of all new and used LP's you own.

[frenchmon]

Treat yourself to a couple of brand new albums, then make some assessments. Sounds like the LPs you have are far gone. I don't buy anything that's too beat up. As a rule, most of my LP's have no clicking or popping. Be selective when buying used, and take excellent care of all new and used LP's you own.

I just went out to the used CD store to look at jazz albums. This is the second time I've done this sense I got the table. There is plenty of used Rock, R&B, but hardly any good Jazz and Classical and Acoustic Blues. I suspect audiophiles are buying that stuff up. I did manage to find an original album by the late Benny Carter after he got done with his many TV and Movie scores. This Album is mint. I got it for $6 bucks. I put it on the table and man it sounds so good. It brought tears to my eyes. PoppaC you had better go look for this album. The one I got is an original copy but you may find a reissue some where. Its Benny Carters Album "Benny Carter and his Orchestra Further Definitions" recorded in 1961. He has playing with him on this gem , Phil Woods, Coleman Hawkins, Charles Rouse,Dick Katz, John Collins, Jimmy Garrison, Jo Jones.

The only two I dont know are Dick Katz, John Collins. We all know the great Phil Wood and great legendary Coleman Hawkins and Charles Rouse was the sax player for Thelonious Monk for years. And Jimmy Garrison was John Coltrains bass player for years. And the great "Poppa" Jo Jones was one of the first drummers to promote the use of brushes on drums and shifting the role of timekeeping from the bass drum to the hi-hat cymbal. "Poppa"Jones had a major influence on drummers such as Buddy Rich, Kenny Clarke, Roy Haynes, Max Roach, and Louie Bellson. PoppaC treat your self to this on vinyl if you can...if not get the CD...im sure there is a reissue.

I love the sound thats comming from the table with this album. The bass is very deep, the drums are very loud but the highs are not like I would have them to be...they are rolled off. The horns are great. I am feeling it. I may need a cart that will bring out the highs while keeping the deep bass.

And MrP..a FYI for you....the Cantons are doing bass like your Dynaudio audience book shelves...it took the Vinyl to show they can go low.

[poppachubby]

Great!! I'll keep an eye out for that LP. noob gave me a Shure M97xe and it has rolled off highs. I use it with my Technics, great combo. Clearly the Tracker is in the same category. Looks like I'll be needing to send you the Ortofon after all. PM me your address again.

As for used jazz, the issue isn't audiophiles buying it up, it's audiophiles not GIVING it up! People just don't trade or sell good jazz on vinyl, and you'll soon know why. Check for record shows or swap meets in your area, these usually bring out the jazz sellers.

It only gets better, and remember, you're only in the Cheverolet Cavalier. Try to get out to hear some Corvette's every now and again.

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon from what you've told me of the albums you acquired, a lot of your noise is due to the condition of the vinyl. A well taken care of LP can be decently quiet. With that being said I still hear noise between tracks unless it's an exceptional LP. this is why I don't like Classical on LP. If you've accepted Poppa's offer for the Ortofon that would be a good place to start. I've never used Grado carts but if they design them to respond like their headphones..... that could account for the sound you describe. Your Cantons are also very revealing in the midrange which is going to accentuate noise in that area.

[frenchmon]

Great!! I'll keep an eye out for that LP. noob gave me a Shure M97xe and it has rolled off highs. I use it with my Technics, great combo. Clearly the Tracker is in the same category. Looks like I'll be needing to send you the Ortofon after all. PM me your address again.

As for used jazz, the issue isn't audiophiles buying it up, it's audiophiles not GIVING it up! People just don't trade or sell good jazz on vinyl, and you'll soon know why. Check for record shows or swap meets in your area, these usually bring out the jazz sellers.

It only gets better, and remember, you're only in the Cheverolet Cavalier. Try to get out to hear some Corvette's every now and again.

A cheverolet cavalier!!!!! You could have put me at lease in a Malabou!

Address sent.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon from what you've told me of the albums you acquired, a lot of your noise is due to the condition of the vinyl. A well taken care of LP can be decently quiet. With that being said I still hear noise between tracks unless it's an exceptional LP. this is why I don't like Classical on LP. If you've accepted Poppa's offer for the Ortofon that would be a good place to start. I've never used Grado carts but if they design them to respond like their headphones..... that could account for the sound you describe. Your Cantons are also very revealing in the midrange which is going to accentuate noise in that area.

MrP...I dont think its a Grado Cart that I have. From what I have been reading about Grado carts they may have the sound I like....no roll off. The noise I hear is from me not washing the albums as PoppaC and noob discribed....and of course teh scratches. I have also some bad recordings I think.

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon, every few months there is a record show close to where I live. The next one is in July. They have them at the Czech Hall on Kingshighway and Landsdown. Most of the vinyl I've gotten there unless out of budget boxes has been excellent. No guarantee though, you always want to check before buying. Many vendors set up tables full of LP's and CD's. Usually very well priced. Bad thing they are always on Sunday.

[Mr Peabody]

Typically, I've found older music, 50's/60's or even older, as long as the original recording was decent, LP sounds much better than it was ever transferred to CD. I have an excellent quality Doris Day LP. Even though mono the sound quality is very good. Same with my LP of Dancing In The Rain, soundtrack to the movie and performed by Louie Armstrong. I'm not into Sinatra but have put on LP's I've gotten in batches I've picked up and the LP is better than any CD I've heard. I'm sure there are exceptions but in my experience the LP recording of older music seems hard to beat.

[frenchmon]

I like Sinatra....how much you want for them?

[frenchmon]

I've had the Music Hall 2.1 a few days now. I've enjoyed the limited vinyl I have.

Nat King Cole unforgettable ...Phoebe Snow Phoebe Snow...Joe Williams The Exciting Joe Williams...William Ackerman Conferring with the Moon Ben Carter Ben Carter and His Orchestra and a compilation Album with many Jazz and Blues artist.

The table is not a bad entry level table at all....I can tell already that in about 6 months to a year I will be getting a much better table. The sound seems to give me more weight and texture but because of the cart, I believe I am missing some of the finer detail. Cymbals are rolled off and the drums can hardly be heard at all. At times it is as if a veil is over the music. The bass is now starting to seem over powering on some songs. But vocals are spot on, and the sound stage is excellent. Joe Williams and Nat Cole voices sound as if they are there in the room but I would like more air and transparency. Would I benefit from an external preamp and a better cart? And if so, what preamp and cart would you suggest if any? From what I have been reading the MM cart Grado is what I want, but I dont want the hum...is there a way around the hum?

[poppachubby]

I have never been a Grado fan. I own a DJ100, it's not bad. How much are you looking to spend in total, for both items?

[frenchmon]

I have never been a Grado fan. I own a DJ100, it's not bad. How much are you looking to spend in total, for both items?

I know about the Grado hum, aside from that...why dont you like them? I dont know about price right now...if I see it and can afford it, I purchase it or save up for it...if not I move on...and I am a bargain hunter. I dont think I want a Technics table, and I plain to purchase a new table and I like jrhymeammo's Idea of purchasing a use phono amp.


I don't want a boring sound from a table and cart. I don't want a ear bleed sound. I want a sound that matches what I have ....not ear bleed...not laid back and boring, but a system that will draw you into the music with great detail but not analytical...good separation and air with emotion and passion when it needs to be.

[poppachubby]

There's a plethora of budget phono stages, all around the $100 mark new. Carts are the same story. I think you should try to jump entry level by buying used in the phono stage dept. As for a cart, Agon has used carts all the time but you must move quickly, quite often within the same hour they go up. Some people get spooked by a used cart but on Agon, a reputable audiophile will usually guard their cart with their life.


Your call. I think you should start out with the Ortofon i am sending you, and this greatly discounted budget stage. Spend some time listening to this combo and then start to upgrade from there.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Needle-Doctor-Phono-Preamps-and-Stereo-Phono-Preamps-1-800-229-0644-Audio-Technica-PEQ3-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=35249

If you want to step over it, try a brand you are familiar with...

http://www.needledoctor.com/Musical-Fidelity-V-LPS?sc=2&category=35249

If you feel this is too "entry" for you, let me know and I'll recommend something better.

[frenchmon]

There's a plethora of budget phono stages, all around the $100 mark new. Carts are the same story. I think you should try to jump entry level by buying used in the phono stage dept.

Thanks for the advice PoppaC but I dont think I want to go budget on anything new under $500. I have a $1200 preamp with an onboard phono amp...so to purchase a budget phono @ $100 would be out the question.


As for a cart, Agon has used carts all the time but you must move quickly, quite often within the same hour they go up. Some people get spooked by a used cart but on Agon, a reputable audiophile will usually guard their cart with their life.

Thats would be me.:wink5:



Your call. I think you should start out with the Ortofon i am sending you, and this greatly discounted budget stage. Spend some time listening to this combo and then start to upgrade from there.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Needle-Doctor-Phono-Preamps-and-Stereo-Phono-Preamps-1-800-229-0644-Audio-Technica-PEQ3-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=35249

If you want to step over it, try a brand you are familiar with...

http://www.needledoctor.com/Musical-Fidelity-V-LPS?sc=2&category=35249

If you feel this is too "entry" for you, let me know and I'll recommend something better.

I am waiting on the Ortofon....let me know when you get it shipped out? I suspect the problem may not be my on board phono, but the Music Hall Tracker cart....Goldring Elan.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

PoppaC aside from the hum which some say cant be heard through the speakers....what is it that you don't like about them? A friend has a VPI classic TT that has a hum as well but once the music starts...you cant hear it at all.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

In the world of phono preamps, maybe worth a look are...PS Audio GCPH, Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2, Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II, Jolida JD-9A, EAR 834P, Whest Two. New prices on those range from $450 to $1500, but used is the way to go if you can find one you want.

With a Grado Red on my MMF-5, I could hear the hum across the room.

[jrhymeammo]

From what I have been reading the MM cart Grado is what I want, but I dont want the hum...is there a way around the hum?

It just MIGHT be possible to eliminate its hum by applying Stillpoints ERS sheet on its body. http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Stillpoints_ERS_More/product/ERS/Stillpoints_ERS_RFI_Killer_Just_lay_on_top_of_your _DAC_CD_player_or_power_conditioner_.htm

The ERS sheet worked as advertised on my previous tonearm cables.
When I tried Grado Prestige Green and Silver, I couldn't get the stock carbon fiber arm on a Pro-Ject table to correctly reproduce certain frequency. Listening to Piano was frustrating with Grado. I thought it had beautiful and neutral sound, but I just couldn't live with its shortcomings. Maybe its shortcomings are something you can live with...

[frenchmon]

noob...how well do you like the PS Audio GCPH? How would you describe the sound? It can be had new on close out at AudioAdvisor for $499 which is cheaper than I've seen on Audiogon.

jrhymeammo...I like the Musical Fidelity X Ray CDP very much. I saw at on time you had a Musical Fidelity product...I think it was the X LPS V8. I thought I remember a right up you did on it some time ago. How did you like it and what sound characteristics did it have?

I think I will forget about Grado Carts....the three of you have spoken in the negative about it...I trust you three's advice....so its forgotten.

Sorry for all the questions guys...i'm just trying to find my way into vinyl.

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

I like the GCPH pretty well. At its recent street prices it seems like a bargain. It has great adjustability, not to say that it's alone in that regard. It has a quiet background, smooth highs and sweet midrange that I can really appreciate since I'm big on vocals. I actually think it outclasses my turntable...maybe my Goldring 1042 does, too...but I'm sort of shopping for a turntable upgrade. It sounds good, but I know there's more out there.

I have seen that opinions and reviews of the GCPH are not universally positive, but most criticisms are with the assumption of its $1k list price. However...I saw where a guy at AK said he had a Cambridge Audio 640P and a GCPH. He said he liked the 640P far better, which is an example of why I try to figure out who I can take seriously and who requires a grain of salt. :crazy:

[poppachubby]

Frenchie what is your preamp? If you have such a nice pre, the onboard circuit must spec nicely. I wouldn't bother with an external amp and focus your money into a cart.

Like noob has pointed out, it's possible to over-do your phono stage. If you go too crazy, the stage will begin to reveal your tables weaknesses. I have experienced this with an audition of a pro-Ject Tube Box. It was simply too good for the combo I had at the time.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Frenchie,<o></o>
<o></o>
<Grado>
I don’t want to guide you to think the Grado Prestige series are bad.<o></o>
They make great carts and I would love to try the Prestige Green again in my current step up.<o></o>
If I remember correctly, they have great depth in sound with great highs that are never harsh.<o></o>
I just didn’t prefer their narrow sound at the time. <o></o>
<o></o>
I used to place my TT next to a TV, and whenever TV was on the cartridge would pickup hum.<o></o>
When turned off, hum never bothered me while music was playing.<o></o>
But it’s been a while since I’ve listened to Grado, and the system setup and my preference in sound was completely different from what I have now.<o></o>
I probably had:<o></o>
B&W Signature 805 or Paradigm Monitor 5<o></o>
Paradigm PW-2200<o></o>
Rotel RSX-972<o></o>
Pro-Ject Xpression or Pioneer PL-1000<o></o>
Pro-Ject Tube Box<o></o>
<o></o><musical fidelity=""></musical>
<Musical Fidelity>
I had the X-CAN V8. <o></o>
It was very boring, muffled, and thought it sucked life out of music.<o></o>
I took a look at its internal layout and components used, and compared it to X-CAN v.3. <o></o>
As far as I could tell they were identical, except for USB the USB option.<o></o>
But what do I know, tons of people love the V3, but I haven’t heard much praise on the V8. <o></o>


<Phono Stage vs. Cartridge>
I think this discuss can become as hostile as Digital vs Analog.<o></o>
Just remember phono-preamps amplify over 1000x of cartridges’ output.<o></o>

[frenchmon]

Thanks guys...

noob that just goes to show us that its all subjective. What sounds good to one person sounds bad to others...

PappaC I dont want to over do it that's for sure. I'm just trying to get the sound right. As of now after listening for a while, the bass is boomy and theres really no cymbals and the mids are funky....I suspect its the cart.

jrhymeammo if the hum is there, I dont think I want to spend money and then take the time to send it back. You said the most dreadful word in discribing the X-Can V8...boring is what I hate...but a few of the guys at head-fi seem to love it. I would love to hear thoughts and reviews on the X-LPS. I thought you had it...but I see its the X-CAN V8.

Thanks for the info guys..

[02audionoob]

noob that just goes to show us that its all subjective. What sounds good to one person sounds bad to others...


I agree to some extent, but...I also believe one person's opinion can be misguided. Sometimes better equipment really just sounds better, even if one person out of 10 or 100 doesn't hear it.

[Mr Peabody]

I agree to some extent, but...I also believe one person's opinion can be misguided. Sometimes better equipment really just sounds better, even if one person out of 10 or 100 doesn't hear it.

Wow, Noob, you're starting to sound like one of those radical guys who claim cables make a difference.

[02audionoob]

Wow, Noob, you're starting to sound like one of those radical guys who claim cables make a difference.

I could see taking that as a compliment. Sometimes I learn a thing or two from those radicals.

[poppachubby]

Not sure if you got my PM Frenchie, your cart is in the mail.

[frenchmon]

Thanks PappaC...

[frenchmon]

Fellas....ima dofus!

I was going through the my preamps manual and discovered there was a button for MC or MM...so I ran down to the 2 channel room and took a look....sure enough its was on MC...so I switched it over and man...such wonderful highs and mids...bass is not where I would like it to be but man....I can perhaps work on that....off to more listening.

[poppachubby]

Fellas....ima dofus!

I was going through the my preamps manual and discovered there was a button for MC or MM...so I ran down to the 2 channel room and took a look....sure enough its was on MC...so I switched it over and man...such wonderful highs and mids...bass is not where I would like it to be but man....I can perhaps work on that....off to more listening.


Hahahhahahahahhah....oh boy. Newbie indeed. Never even thought about that. I can only imagine the difference. Anyhow the Ortofon will have better bass. Enjoy and remember that the power button is for on and off.

[jrhymeammo]

I actually laughed out loud. Good stuff.
Enjoy your tunes.

[02audionoob]

Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.

[frenchmon]

Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.

Yeah I did...but its just a bad pressing I believe.

[jrhymeammo]

It's hard to say whether the cartridge was setup properly by the seller, but I wouldn't make any arbitrary changes to the cart and tonearms.
With that said, I believe tonearm counterweight must've been disassembled from the arm prior to packaging. Did you have to place the counterweight to the end of the arm yourself?
If so, how did you setup your VTF(Verticle Tracking Force)?

If you want to start buying LP and preserve ones you already have, then you will need to get a stylus force gauge. Just make sure to keep your Tonearm and Plinth leveled before taking a measurement. You can still get a Shure gauge for $24 (not $36) if you look around.

I'm not sure how your tonearm VTA is setup. Do you think you can post a picture of your tonearm cued down on a LP?

JRA

[02audionoob]

There's nothing "arbitrary" about increasing the tracking force as a method of improving the sound. It can help in many cases and does not require a separate gauge.

[jrhymeammo]

There's nothing "arbitrary" about increasing the tracking force as a method of improving the sound. It can help in many cases and does not require a separate gauge.

If you are playing by the ear then I guess you are not wrong, but I do think it's a bad advice.

If a listener likes how music sounds with say 5grams of VTF, then I couldn't be happier for him, but I will never buy used LP from this guy.
You are not still setting up cartridges based on what it says on a counterweight grid, are you? If not, would you?

[02audionoob]

I disagree with you on the significance of the issue. 100%. If you set up the turntable to the exact force recommended by the manufacturer, and you know you have exactly the right number, you still need to adjust by ear to get the best sound. It therefore did you little good to know the exact number.

By the way...the MMF-2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams and records are more easily damaged by too little tracking force than too much. You can exaggerate with absurd numbers like that if you want to, but I can tell you it's common advice in the audio world to use more force than the exact optimum recommended by the cartridge manufacturer. And it works.

[jrhymeammo]

I disagree with you on the significance of the issue. 100%. If you set up the turntable to the exact force recommended by the manufacturer, and you know you have exactly the right number, you still need to adjust by ear to get the best sound. It therefore did you little good to know the exact number.


The only cartridge company that I know suggest definite tracking force is The Cartridge Man. I think it's at 1.595g, but most of cartridge manufacturers suggest 0.3g+/- window of adjustment. Exact VFT is meaningless when considering external vibration. I'm sure internal vibration and LP warp alone will alter 0.005g of VFT.

But to suggest a newcomer to turn the knob is not a sensible advice. You are only suggesting to add VTF without knowing the starting point.



By the way...the MMF-2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams and records are more easily damaged by too little tracking force than too much.

I think you are wrong on this, and this is why people still rely on what counterweight reads. On a fixed counterweight setting, different cartridge weight will result to different VTF. I don't know this for a fact, but mounting a heavy cartridge with adjustment on a counterweight should exceed 5 grams of VTF.

Where you getting information that says MMF2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams of VTF?

Hey Noob, I'm really suprised to see your posts above. If anything I'm shocked.
Am I missing a joke from a different thread?

JRA

[02audionoob]

The optimum tracking force for the mmf-2.1 is given in the manual as 1.75 grams, which is a common number that Goldring gives. If an mmf-2.1 owner sets up the turntable per the manual or has a professional do it for them, it will be at 1.75 grams. Moving up toward the higher end of the recommended range provides better tracking and less sibilance in many cases.


I have tried many times listening to my cartridges set to the exact force recommended by Goldring or at the exact center of the recommended range. I find I always eventually add at least 0.1 gram or even 0.15 gram. It adds to the sound very nicely. I'm not alone on this one. It's just real life. Read some of the forums with heavier analog activity and you see what I mean. The level of exactness you're suggesting is of little value. You're wasting your time. You can chase exactness all you want to, but many audiophiles are still setting the force to a different number than the manufacturer's recommendation, even if they use a scale.

As for whether the MMF-2.1 can or cannot apply 5 grams of force, try it for yourself. I don't think weight will turn in that far with a Tracker on it. I'll bet it stops at 4 grams or less. Maybe, maybe not. But your example is still absurd. I have also compared my tracking force to the results achieved with a Shure SFG-2 and a digital scale, and it really is accurate enough.

If you're going to accuse me of joking and giving bad advice, why not check and see if you know what you're talking about and let me know, ok?

[frenchmon]

Hi JRA and noob...

I did place the weight on my self...it was simple. No VTA was needed according to the instruction book...it was set at the factory. Only if I change the cart will I need to set it. Where is the best place to buy a gauge, brush, cleaning fluids and so on?

noob I just now increased the tracking force from 1.75 Gms to 2Gms and the bass and overall presentation seems to have more texture to it while listening to Paul Desmond. JRA, I've lost my password to the online resource I was using to post pictures and I did password recovery but they have not sent a new password as of yet...as soon as I get my password I will post pictures.

Cheers...and continue to instruct me in vinyl and tables...you two alone with PoppaC are my learning resouce.

[02audionoob]

You could try one of these digital scales. I have one...in addition to my Shure SFG-2.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29836

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B00006I5SD

[jrhymeammo]

Noob,

Before this thread turns into another "He said, She said", I'll say this.

If I had offended you, then I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. As I told you, I think it's important for us to give proper advice to Frenchie, since he's been out of the water for decades. That's why I said it was a bad advice. If you had suggest me to increase VTF, I probably would've only turned a smidgit. Now, I don't want to to mislead others to think I'm now offending Frenchie here to say he would make full 360 degree turn on a counterweight. I'm positive Frenchy nows better but again, he's been away from the scene for 2+ decades. I think it was suggested by the community to align cartridge inward and apply as much pressure as possible back in the day. I'm probably being absurd here as well.


5g is indeed excessive, and I thought I made that clear. I'm not going to ask you to read between the lines, so I'll be sure to make it clear for all from now on.


P.S. I'm not going to get a MMF2.1 and a heavy cartridge just to see how quickly I can snap the cantilever.

[02audionoob]

JRA, I don't know what that means, but I'll say this...You could learn some manners. Seriously.

[jrhymeammo]

I'm not going to just agree with you to say I'm a jackass, because I don't think I was being a jack ass. But seems you were offended by my posts, so I'm sorry you felt that way.

Administrator,
This good thread was going well until this afternoon. Feel free to erase my posts before this thread gets locked.

JRA

[frenchmon]

Hey fellas...speaking of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue... what does this mean?

"The 2M series is available in four different iterations, which are divided into two tiers. The 2M Red ($99) and Blue ($199) share the same plastic cartridge body and engine, but where the Red uses a standard elipitical stylus, the Blue employs a polished, nude elipitcal diamond."

Does this mean that one has some sort of covering while the other does not?

frenchmon

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi JRA and noob...

I did place the weight on my self...it was simple. No VTA was needed according to the instruction book...it was set at the factory. Only if I change the cart will I need to set it. Where is the best place to buy a gauge, brush, cleaning fluids and so on?

noob I just now increased the tracking force from 1.75 Gms to 2Gms and the bass and overall presentation seems to have more texture to it while listening to Paul Desmond. JRA, I've lost my password to the online resource I was using to post pictures and I did password recovery but they have not sent a new password as of yet...as soon as I get my password I will post pictures.

Cheers...and continue to instruct me in vinyl and tables...you two alone with PoppaC are my learning resouce.

Hey Frenchie,
I usually get my supplies at Elusive Disc. I picked up a level a while back and recently I got a Clearaudio Diamond Stylus Brush and some stylus cleaning fluid. I'm really enjoying this thread. Picking up a lot of valuable info, as I know you are too.

[jrhymeammo]

Here is a good link on all types of stylus.
As for the difference, I have no idea whether nude elliptical offers more contact surface when compared to its "clothed" cousin.


http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22894

[Mr Peabody]

Hey, even if the 2.1 can't track to 5 grams it's nothing a few quarters and some tape can't fix :)

[02audionoob]

I wonder how one of the old Eisenhower dollar coins would work. :)


Hey fellas...speaking of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue... what does this mean?

"The 2M series is available in four different iterations, which are divided into two tiers. The 2M Red ($99) and Blue ($199) share the same plastic cartridge body and engine, but where the Red uses a standard elipitical stylus, the Blue employs a polished, nude elipitcal diamond."

Does this mean that one has some sort of covering while the other does not?

frenchmon

The standard elliptical they're referring to is a diamond bonded to a metal shank. The nude elliptical is all diamond. The nude stylus has less mass and is supposed to track more accurately than the bonded version, but it's usually more expensive.

[frenchmon]

Hey Frenchie,
I usually get my supplies at Elusive Disc. I picked up a level a while back and recently I got a Clearaudio Diamond Stylus Brush and some stylus cleaning fluid. I'm really enjoying this thread. Picking up a lot of valuable info, as I know you are too.

Yeah Jack...these guy's are taking me back to school. Vinyl sure sounds a lot better sense the 80's...I suppose its because I have better gear.

Thanks for the heads up on the Brushes and fluids...I need to get some...back in the day I would just go to radio shack.

Have you changed your cart? I find the Elan not being able to track on some passages....but again, I may just need a good cleaning of the vinyl.

- Cheers...

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Here is a good link on all types of stylus.
As for the difference, I have no idea whether nude elliptical offers more contact surface when compared to its "clothed" cousin.


http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22894

Thanks jrhymeammo..i'll check it out.

[frenchmon]

I wonder how one of the old Eisenhower dollar coins would work. :)



The standard elliptical they're referring to is a diamond bonded to a metal shank. The nude elliptical is all diamond. The nude stylus has less mass and is supposed to track more accurately than the bonded version, but it's usually more expensive.

Yeah...the reviews of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue says they sound about the same cept the Blue being nude and costing $199 while the Red being clothed and costing $99. PoppaC is sending me a OM 10....I might just get a 2M Red and shoot-out the Red and OM 10 and the Elan. I have a dealer friend who may give a good price better than retail.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.

noob...I just bumped up the sub a little...I can hear Percy Heaths acoustic bass on Dextor Gordon "Gotham City" loud and clear now..:3:

[poppachubby]

Yeah...the reviews of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue says they sound about the same cept the Blue being nude and costing $199 while the Red being clothed and costing $99. PoppaC is sending me a OM 10....I might just get a 2M Red and shoot-out the Red and OM 10 and the Elan. I have a dealer friend who may give a good price better than retail.

frenchmon

I have a 2M Red and I have heard the Blue extensively. I wouldn't say they sound or perform the same. Don't discount the Blue.

The Red performs wonderfully with really clear highs. Tracks like a dream, you'd enjoy it. I would say it tracks nicer than the OM-10 but in terms of sound, they will be a close race.

[frenchmon]

I have a 2M Red and I have heard the Blue extensively. I wouldn't say they sound or perform the same. Don't discount the Blue.

The Red performs wonderfully with really clear highs. Tracks like a dream, you'd enjoy it. I would say it tracks nicer than the OM-10 but in terms of sound, they will be a close race.

PoppaC you a Red??? What was the difference between the Red and Blue....you must have a cart collection over there? I did hear a Grado on a VPI and it sounded pretty good.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

I think just about any cart on a VPI will sound great, or at the very least, as it's meant to.

Yes I have a Red. As you will eventually have happen, I broke the stylus while dusting an LP. My long sleeve was loose and I was carelesssly too close. It snagged and that was that. I literally picked it up off the ground and snuggled it like a dead pet. Pathetic really.

So anyhow, I had it for roughly 3 months before that. The Blue I have heard on a friends Pro-Ject RPM5 many times and at my local shop also. There are subtle differences, but as I said tracking is exceptional. It's subjective depending on system, but I my experience is that the Blue delivers better highs than the Red. They are more detailed and "real" sounding. Moving from that the upper mids were much smoother. I never really heard a big improvement in bass, but again, subjective.

I thought about sending you the Red cart, but you may as well just buy yourself a brand new one rather than just a stylus. Keep in mind about the OM-20, begin researching it. For that matter the whole OM family.

Here's the Red on my SL-Q2...(sniffle)...I'll buy another stylus but I have a Shure and a Sumiko on the go. I may get it while I have the Sumiko re-tipped.

http://forums.audioreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6079&d=1253919240

[poppachubby]

you must have a cart collection over there? frenchmon

Give it time friend, you will soon be a collector. MMMMMMWWHHAAAhahahhahahaaha.......

[Jack in Wilmington]

Yeah Jack...these guy's are taking me back to school. Vinyl sure sounds a lot better sense the 80's...I suppose its because I have better gear.

Thanks for the heads up on the Brushes and fluids...I need to get some...back in the day I would just go to radio shack.

Have you changed your cart? I find the Elan not being able to track on some passages....but again, I may just need a good cleaning of the vinyl.

- Cheers...

frenchmon

I haven't changed mine yet. All my vinyl is new, so that may be working in my favor. I am getting the itch though with all this talk about cartridges. I can feel the fever. Waiting to see how your cartridge from poppa sounds.

[frenchmon]

I haven't changed mine yet. All my vinyl is new, so that may be working in my favor. I am getting the itch though with all this talk about cartridges. I can feel the fever. Waiting to see how your cartridge from poppa sounds.

Yeah...I have the itch to try and tweek the table as much as possible...which is not much. That PoppaC dude is really cool.

[02audionoob]

noob...I just bumped up the sub a little...I can hear Percy Heaths acoustic bass on Dextor Gordon "Gotham City" loud and clear now..:3:
Frenchie...you've inspired me to bump the sub level up just a bit and throw on some Dexter Gordon. Great Encounters is up first. :13:

[Enochrome]

Hey Frenchmon,

Can't wait to know what you think of your TT matched with the OM-10? I just got my OM-20 working and matched with my Luxman: it is consistently blowing my mind!!!
Thanks to the always generous and cool Poppa and Audionoob, I am in their camp of OM series fan. Post as soon as you get a chance!

[02audionoob]

Phil Spector looks like the OM20 just blew his mind...

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-2/Phil-Spector-hair.jpg

[Enochrome]

Haahahahaaaahhhhaaa!! That is exactly what I felt like last night, but with a smile on my face. Thank god I didn't go out last night, and that Spector changed his doo before entering the pen!!!

Awesome Audionoob!!!!!!!!!!

[frenchmon]

Back in the 70' and 80's my fro was about that size.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

You guys with this bumping up the subs will have this place sounding like a car stereo contest before you know it :)

[Jack in Wilmington]

Yeah...I have the itch to try and tweek the table as much as possible...which is not much. That PoppaC dude is really cool.

Looks like I'm getting ready to scratch the itch big time. Got my local Music Hall dealer working up a deal on a MMF 5.1 with an upgraded Goldring cartridge. He'll take my 2.1 in on trade. Just have to find time to get up there. He's got some vinyl for sale too, so I'm sure I won't get out untouched. I was looking Clearaudio or VPI, but this will do nicely till the next itch.

[frenchmon]

Looks like I'm getting ready to scratch the itch big time. Got my local Music Hall dealer working up a deal on a MMF 5.1 with an upgraded Goldring cartridge. He'll take my 2.1 in on trade. Just have to find time to get up there. He's got some vinyl for sale too, so I'm sure I won't get out untouched. I was looking Clearaudio or VPI, but this will do nicely till the next itch.

Wow! sounds good to me. Wish I knew some one to take gear in on trades. Congrats. Let me know the difference in the two players with the two difference carts when you get it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Wow! sounds good to me. Wish I knew some one to take gear in on trades. Congrats. Let me know the difference in the two players with the two difference carts when you get it.

This will be the nicest table I've owned to date. I've owned some different cartridges (Audio Technica, Shure etc) this will be my first Goldring.

[Mr Peabody]

Jack, you are doing what I did, upgrading table and cart at same time. I did try a Rega P2 and Rega cart for audition before I got the P3 & Elys. I'm happy with the combo but wonder how other carts would compare. Looking forward to hearing how you like your new rig.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, you are doing what I did, upgrading table and cart at same time. I did try a Rega P2 and Rega cart for audition before I got the P3 & Elys. I'm happy with the combo but wonder how other carts would compare. Looking forward to hearing how you like your new rig.

Thanks Mr. P. It was the one part of my system that I felt was not on the same level as the rest. I addressed the analog part last because I didn't take it seriously. I had turntables in the 70's and 80's and when CD's came along, I moved with the times. Now with better speakers, amps, cables, etc. I can really feel the richness in analog and want to continue to explore.

[frenchmon]

Thanks Mr. P. It was the one part of my system that I felt was not on the same level as the rest. I addressed the analog part last because I didn't take it seriously. I had turntables in the 70's and 80's and when CD's came along, I moved with the times. Now with better speakers, amps, cables, etc. I can really feel the richness in analog and want to continue to explore.

Jack...I too changed with the times when CD came. I even sold all my albums back in the 80's. Then within the last month I got the itch to try vinyl again and boy am I glad I did. Vinyl has a warmth that CD or SACD just cant touch. There seems to be more depth and thickness to the music with Vinyl...brass seems to have more meat to it and a guitar sounds more real. The only thing I hate about turntables is you gotta get up and turn over the vinyl. I still have two weeks to go before my month is up to send it back and get a better table, and I have been wondering about a simi-automatic table that has an automatic return. I called MusicDirect and they said to send it back. My plans where to keep it for about 6-12 months but now that you have traded yours in for a better table, its very tempting to do the same thing. I really do like the MMF 2.1. I have been wearing Paul Desmond and Dexter Gordon out with a little blues from Joe Williams and Big Joe Turner.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Jack, you are doing what I did, upgrading table and cart at same time. I did try a Rega P2 and Rega cart for audition before I got the P3 & Elys. I'm happy with the combo but wonder how other carts would compare. Looking forward to hearing how you like your new rig.

MrP...I will be doing a shoot out with the Goldring Elan (music tracker) Ortofon OM-10 and the Ortofon 2M Red but of course it will be a slow process seeing you have to be careful changing out carts. I called Music Direct and they said the MM2.1 has been sitting in back a few years so the cart has way less than 50 hours on it. So its not even broken in yet.

I order the 2MRed from our friend at a discount price a few days ago...before I did I checked prices at MusicDirect and Needle doctor. Today I go to needle doctor and they have it in the closeout cheaper than what our friend sells for...not much cheaper, but never the less cheaper. If you want to try a 2M RED....get the discount price at needledoctor.com....its only $79 bucks.

[Mr Peabody]

I wouldn't upgrade on that Numark and the Elys was $400.00 or above so I doubt the Red would compare.

I don't believe you will find a high end table that is semi automatic. Most tables designed for sound quality keep anything that would cause noise away. I feel you though, especially on albums I'm not familiar with. About the fourth song I'm thinking is that it.... do I need to jump up..... I really get irritated when I do jump up, get about to the table and music begins on the next song :)

[frenchmon]

I wouldn't upgrade on that Numark and the Elys was $400.00 or above so I doubt the Red would compare.

I don't believe you will find a high end table that is semi automatic. Most tables designed for sound quality keep anything that would cause noise away. I feel you though, especially on albums I'm not familiar with. About the fourth song I'm thinking is that it.... do I need to jump up..... I really get irritated when I do jump up, get about to the table and music begins on the next song :)

How would there be noise if the return is after the music has stopped? Its not like there is noise if the music is playing

[frenchmon]

wrong thread