Doesn't anybody get burned out arguing about wires sometimes? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Tony_Montana
04-02-2004, 06:11 PM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

cam
04-02-2004, 06:40 PM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?
And some people like to type alot.

jackz4000
04-02-2004, 07:50 PM
I agree with that. Can't really believe the ruckus over cables, but people do have their views. Some are in need of a pulpit to preach their sermons from. It's got a certain humor...all the fuss about cables. I bet if everyone peers into their amps and speakers, the wire they will see....will not be any $20 per ft wire. Perhaps all that wire should also be replaced with high end cable? Its a nice little project. Afterall, continuity of the signal from source to amp to speaker should improve and many will attest that they "hear" the difference. Did I see a "yeti" this afternoon?

I would think, methinks that the quality of the amp and the speakers and the overall room acoustic signature will have much more to do with the sound spectrum than...cables. Perhaps, I am incorrect?

Rockwell
04-02-2004, 08:11 PM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

I have, and left for a year.

As much as the regular posters argue and will never change sides(baring some revelation), there are many lurkers and newbies who are influenced by one side or the other. Objectivists really have nothing to gain from playing the skeptic, other than educating and hopefully taking a few sales away from what is becoming an increasingly fraudulent industry.

jackz4000
04-02-2004, 08:36 PM
Yes. Some poor person could read some of the preaching and believe they need to go out and buy some "Super Duper Cable". The preachers on here preaching, "...the highs were so silky and the midrange presented better definition, and the bass was so tight with my "Supra dupras" cables. " The poor reader who trusted in that crap sits there and tries to convince himself that this cable, he just spent a wad on, is endowing his system with a whole new sound. Allejuah! And of course, its just a little fraud. Probably good that those with their "special hearing abilities" espouing these cables get...a little reality check.

mtrycraft
04-02-2004, 10:39 PM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

Rock said it well. It is for the new posters benefit, although pctower is a good example of where he is today from where he was on day one. It is for him to make choices based on the information presented. :)

skeptic
04-03-2004, 05:34 AM
"Objectivists really have nothing to gain from playing the skeptic, other than educating and hopefully taking a few sales away from what is becoming an increasingly fraudulent industry."

I came here a few years ago hoping to hear some valid arguements and find evidence on both sides having found none at CA. Unfortunately, so far, I have not seen or heard any convincing evidence on the pro side although the culture here seems to be more tolerant of the anti side. I'm still waiting. Being a "skeptic" doesn't mean I CAN'T be convinced. It just mean that so far I haven't and I'm not going to just sit back and be snowed.

However, in the intervening time, I have found that there are rational people out there who might be provoked to rethink points of view that they've adopted a long time ago and now at least question to the degree that they aren't so sure any more because they no longer take on faith the simple arguements and advertising of people who have an emotional or financial stake in them. And at least a few people seem to have reconsidered not just what they believe but how and why they do and even if they don't change their minds, at least to put the value of what they believe into a more realistic perspective. There is some satisfaction in that.

E-Stat
04-03-2004, 07:17 AM
So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?
Two reasons:

1. For those who seek a more musical system, all they need do is try for themselves. All of my cable purchases have been on a 30 day trial money back offer. No improvee, no buyee. Honesty works.

2. Maybe sometime the "experience free" set will actually have opportunity to hear systems for which the differences are found to be meaningful. I am very much looking forward to hearing one particularly spectacular system in Seacliff again next weekend. I find theory in any endeavor only useful as a starting point.

Car performance (especially at the low end) is continuing to improve despite over a century of development. Performance measurements are woefully inadequate to fully describe the driving experience. Unlike here, the automotive press does not rest it's case on the essentially useless metrics or basing the performance envelope on Hyundais.

rw

Bill L
04-03-2004, 08:54 AM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?
Because sometimes we're so bored that it's actually a fun thing. Or we like a challenge. Or we have an internet addiction. Or we hope that last rat-bastard responds so we can pour some vengeful whoop-ass on him. You know. Fun.

Rikki
04-03-2004, 12:07 PM
Well, I'm new to the forum and have just started hearing all the arguments. It is kind of like discussing religion or politics. Everyone has a strong view and knows THEY are right, but no one can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing it though.

What does 2 + 2 = ?

Math teacher says: "4"
Engineer says; "4.000000000 to the nearest one millionth"
CPA says **closes the blinds in his office and looks around to make sure no one is looking** "What do you want it to be ?

mtrycraft
04-03-2004, 10:46 PM
Well, I'm new to the forum and have just started hearing all the arguments. It is kind of like discussing religion or politics. Everyone has a strong view and knows THEY are right, but no one can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing it though.

What does 2 + 2 = ?

Math teacher says: "4"
Engineer says; "4.000000000 to the nearest one millionth"
CPA says **closes the blinds in his office and looks around to make sure no one is looking** "What do you want it to be ?


Well, things in audio can be tested. Not so in religion or in politics. Statistics at the 95% confidence level is used :)

pctower
04-04-2004, 01:11 AM
Yes. Some poor person could read some of the preaching and believe they need to go out and buy some "Super Duper Cable". The preachers on here preaching, "...the highs were so silky and the midrange presented better definition, and the bass was so tight with my "Supra dupras" cables. " The poor reader who trusted in that crap sits there and tries to convince himself that this cable, he just spent a wad on, is endowing his system with a whole new sound. Allejuah! And of course, its just a little fraud. Probably good that those with their "special hearing abilities" espouing these cables get...a little reality check.

Somewhere, some place out there in audiophileland, there may be such a "poor person" or such a "poor reader" (wasn't sure if that meant he couldn't read very well, spent so much on books to read that he is now poor, or is just some lame, sorry soul in need of rescuing) . However, anyone interested enough to get to the internet to discuss audio subjects should be able to try cables on loan or with return privilege and decide for himself what they do or don't do to improve his enjoyment of his system.

I can't believe how some people delude themselves into believing that they are somehow "saving" the "less informed" or the "less intelligent" among us from our own foolishness.

I personally think it is the height of arrogance and foolishness for any of us to believe that anyone out there is taking anything we say seriously or is in any way changing their behavior based on what we say. If if there is some such "poor person" who is swayed by what any of us says, he needs much more help than he'll ever get on the internet.

Now, if someone is really interested in making up his own mind, there's plenty to learn here. I suspect most who spend anytime here do learn, but they won't necessarily come to the obviously opinionated position you have reached. And I doubt many of them, if any, feel they need you or anyone one else to save them from themselves or rescue them from their having "trusted that crap". Most audiophiles I have know are highly intellegent people, many of whom have spent what you might considered a "wad" on cables. They don't sit around trying to "convince" themselves that they have just achieved a "whole new sound". Instead, most are accomplished, self-confident people who make their decisions on what works for them and once they've made that decision they have no need to look back or attempt to play some mind game trying to convince themselves they made a good decision.

Most of the "mind games" that I believe get played are people like you, who probably have met few if any dedicated audiophiles who use after-market cables, creating the kind of fantasy scenario you set out in your post.

pctower
04-04-2004, 01:19 AM
Well, things in audio can be tested. Not so in religion or in politics. Statistics at the 95% confidence level is used :)

Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.

There's even hope for the self-proclaimed objectivists. They've spent decades talking as if they have valid tests to support their position. So when they really do get some actual, scientific test results they'll be well prepared to discuss them. Well, they'll do OK if these tests actually produce valid null results. On the other hand....

ksing44
04-04-2004, 05:28 AM
I really didn’t know anything about cables when I purchased all of my equipment. I have to admit that I was swayed by what was used at the fancy store where I purchased the equipment and by what I read on the Internet and in stereophile/audiophile magazines. It made sense to me that the link to the speakers was one of the most important parts of the equation, so I went for some fancy cables. After all, my new speakers have very large gold-plated speaker wire connections that would look ridiculous with tiny speaker wire twisted around them. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

Now I also have to admit that I keep hoping someone will tell me that my MIT Terminator II cables and interconnects were worth every penny. I wish they would tell me I really needed those cables or my stereo would stink. I wish they would say my cables just happen to be the very best cables ever made and they were a real bargain.

Well at least I got them for about 25% of the original cost, so I didn’t get ripped off too bad.

They look cool, with that huge garden hose appearance. :cool:

jackz4000
04-04-2004, 08:30 AM
Firstly, not everyone who reads or posts on this board could be considered an "audiophile". Many are new to HT and have alot of questions. As am I. And, in the past a number of my questions were well answered here. Its an excellent board. If you had read my few other posts on the subject you would also read that,..."one should use the cable they want." That everyone "hears" a bit differently. That some do have more acute hearing than do others. And on some high end systems one may hear a difference in the cable used.

Having once been an audio salesman and audio buyer for a small audio chain, I am aware of the various reasons a salesman will steer a customer to higher end cables. There are "sales programs and incentives" etc for selling high. Usually a commish too. The mark-up on cables far exceeds the mark-up on hard goods. And thats just all part of the biz, no big deal. If they couldn't make money; they would have to close their doors.

I don't think that high end cables ($20 per ft) will make a significant difference on a mid-level system, as much as the quality of the components and the given room acoustics. Its fine that you are of a different opinion. Have a nice day.

Monstrous Mike
04-04-2004, 08:31 AM
Instead, most are accomplished, self-confident people who make their decisions on what works for them and once they've made that decision they have no need to look back or attempt to play some mind game trying to convince themselves they made a good decision.
That only works for decisions that can't be reversed. Are telling me you never bought a car and then soured on it when it let you down over and over? (i.e. you reversed your decision and sold it and bought another one)

The message from people leaning on the nay side of the fence like me is really quite simple. And that message is that when you bring home any new audio component, insert it into your system, and attempt to assess any differences, the assessment process is fraught with pitfalls that could give erroneous results or interpretations, especially if the difference is small. Hopefully that article about Coke and Pepsi in the other thread shows this.

How this message can be interpreted as calling people liars or delusional is beyond me.

Rikki
04-04-2004, 09:55 AM
Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.
I agree. There are some real numbers like number of watts a speaker can handle before failing, or frequency response, but that doesn't necessarily tell you which component is BETTER.

Example, a 12 ounce steak weighs...well 12 ounces and is 1000 calories. An average serving of chicken is also 12 ounces and is 450 calories. Based on these numbers, which meal is "better" ?

pctower
04-04-2004, 10:14 AM
That only works for decisions that can't be reversed. Are telling me you never bought a car and then soured on it when it let you down over and over? (i.e. you reversed your decision and sold it and bought another one)

The message from people leaning on the nay side of the fence like me is really quite simple. And that message is that when you bring home any new audio component, insert it into your system, and attempt to assess any differences, the assessment process is fraught with pitfalls that could give erroneous results or interpretations, especially if the difference is small. Hopefully that article about Coke and Pepsi in the other thread shows this.


How this message can be interpreted as calling people liars or delusional is beyond me.

I've never bought a car with a 30 to 60 day return privilege. I did, however, buy a new Yukon yesterday and so far haven't soured on it.

I've never bought a piece of audio gear (including cables) that had a 30 to 60 day return privilege that I kept and later soured on. You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.

I was spinning some vinyl this morning and thinking (which of course is dangerous) that if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers. I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

pctower
04-04-2004, 10:15 AM
It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

The answer to your question: apparently not.

Rockwell
04-04-2004, 02:48 PM
I've never bought a car with a 30 to 60 day return privilege. I did, however, buy a new Yukon yesterday and so far haven't soured on it.

I've never bought a piece of audio gear (including cables) that had a 30 to 60 day return privilege that I kept and later soured on. You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.

I was spinning some vinyl this morning and thinking (which of course is dangerous) that if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers. I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

So, you are saying that at least some of the performance of your system comes from the wires? That is a claim that is testable by you via a bit of blind listening. You could settle that matter for yourself and we wont have any need to listen to it. Although, I sure would like to hear it. :)

mtrycraft
04-04-2004, 08:00 PM
Example, a 12 ounce steak weighs...well 12 ounces and is 1000 calories. An average serving of chicken is also 12 ounces and is 450 calories. Based on these numbers, which meal is "better" ?


Better tasting or better for your health? Taste is very personal, health is not. chicken is better for you, less fat. Atkins was wrong.

mtrycraft
04-04-2004, 08:02 PM
Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.

There's even hope for the self-proclaimed objectivists. They've spent decades talking as if they have valid tests to support their position. So when they really do get some actual, scientific test results they'll be well prepared to discuss them. Well, they'll do OK if these tests actually produce valid null results. On the other hand....


Just as soon as I lear of one published in IEEE or JAES, I will let you know. In th emeantime, that fence will give you a pain you know where :)

mtrycraft
04-04-2004, 08:11 PM
1. For those who seek a more musical system, all they need do is try for themselves.

Yep, flawed auditioning gives flawed, unreliable results. Great advice.

Honesty works.

Yep, one has be be honest in th efirst place.

2. Maybe sometime the "experience free" set will actually have opportunity to hear systems for which the differences are found to be meaningful.


Maybe some of these self appointed 'golden ears' can demonstrate such differences in a credible manner? Or, most likely they just cannot trust only their ears and must confuse the issue with their biases.

I am very much looking forward to hearing one particularly spectacular system in Seacliff again next weekend. I find theory in any endeavor only useful as a starting point.


Unfortunately, with your protocol, you will never know one way or the other. Good luck.

mtrycraft
04-04-2004, 08:19 PM
I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

Well, you are on the safe side of the bet here. How are you going to test this? Who will haul his rig to your home to compare, DBT? Just like the cuts in taxes:) No way to test it.

E-Stat
04-05-2004, 05:18 AM
Unfortunately, with your protocol, you will never know one way or the other. Good luck.
You don't even know what you don't know. As I was twenty four years ago before experiencing a system of that level. It took me years to really hear what I heard. There is an avalanche of new information to perceive. And I'm convinced that I still do not have full measure of what the Seacliff system can do. I'd love to have it downstairs for a couple of months. For a detail junkie like me, there is no more gratifying experience than continuing to hear deeper into virtually all recordings than I do with my $21k system. There is simply no comparision.

I no more need a better "protocol" to experience this system than MIchael Schumacher does to experience the Ferrari Scuderia F2004.

rw

E-Stat
04-05-2004, 05:22 AM
Just like the cuts in taxes:) No way to test it.
Every major federal income tax reduction from JFK's to Ronald Reagan's to W's has resulted in an increase in overall tax revenue. The IRS stats are easy to find on www.irs.gov.

rw

pctower
04-05-2004, 07:19 AM
Firstly, not everyone who reads or posts on this board could be considered an "audiophile". Many are new to HT and have alot of questions. As am I. And, in the past a number of my questions were well answered here. Its an excellent board. If you had read my few other posts on the subject you would also read that,..."one should use the cable they want." That everyone "hears" a bit differently. That some do have more acute hearing than do others. And on some high end systems one may hear a difference in the cable used.

Having once been an audio salesman and audio buyer for a small audio chain, I am aware of the various reasons a salesman will steer a customer to higher end cables. There are "sales programs and incentives" etc for selling high. Usually a commish too. The mark-up on cables far exceeds the mark-up on hard goods. And thats just all part of the biz, no big deal. If they couldn't make money; they would have to close their doors.

I don't think that high end cables ($20 per ft) will make a significant difference on a mid-level system, as much as the quality of the components and the given room acoustics. Its fine that you are of a different opinion. Have a nice day.

Actually, my opinion is not much different than what you just wrote.

pctower
04-05-2004, 07:37 AM
So, you are saying that at least some of the performance of your system comes from the wires? That is a claim that is testable by you via a bit of blind listening. You could settle that matter for yourself and we wont have any need to listen to it. Although, I sure would like to hear it. :)

It may or may not be a claim. I won't say that I'm sure to a reasonable scientific certainty that cables make a difference, although all of my experience tells me that they do. However, my comment was addressed more to the mind set that seems to eschew a "normal" approach to audio where, as with most things we buy as consumers, we don't obsess to the point of conducting scientically valid blind tests. I believe that if I had insisted on scienfic validation for my choices I would not have achieved what I have with my system. If that's a claim, then so be it. However, consider the source, lack of expertise of the person making the claim, and lack of scientific verification of the claim.

As for doing my own blind testing, I have no interest in doing that. I'm not "afraid" of what I might find. It's just such tests are irrelevant for my purposes. My purpose is to derive the maximum perceived performance out of my system. Trying to develop and conduct a scientific test to verify the scientific validity of my choices is not important to me. Enjoying my system is and I employ the method that works for me.

And the result is one of the most amazing systems I have ever heard. Am I biased? Of course I am. However, there have been many times during the last 30 years I would not have made such a claim. In fact, it wasn't until I got a true dedicated soundroom about 5 years ago, spent over a year dealing exclusively with room accoustics, and then having gone as far as I could with that started doing serious long-term auditioning of my equipment and cables. I made very judicious choices and anything new I introduced went through at least 30 days of long term trial before a decision was made. I rejected between 20 to 30 different cables until settling on the ones I have had for the past 2 years.

The other thing that helped dramatically in achieving the level of performance I have is in returning to vinyl as my primary serious-listening source. I have what I believe is one of the best redbook digital front ends available and it just doesn't get to where my vinyl front end does.

None of this is scientifically based. But for me the end product is what matters, and I doubt very seriously that those who demand scientific validation for the audio choices could ever hope to dream of achieving the results that I have.

If that sounds boastful or arrogant, I apologize. I'm just trying to be upfront with where I stand personally on all of this. For the past year and a-half I have focused primarily on discussing objective validation and truths on the audio boards. I've said everything I can think of about that, so I'm prepared to return to discussing more of my personal (non-scientific) "guesses" and my personal (non-scientifc) experiences with audio.

If you think that kind of stuff is worthless, then you may want to refrain from reading my posts for a while. I understand there is a way on this board you can block posts from certain members.

pctower
04-05-2004, 07:48 AM
Well, you are on the safe side of the bet here. How are you going to test this? Who will haul his rig to your home to compare, DBT? Just like the cuts in taxes:) No way to test it.

Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.

E-Stat
04-05-2004, 08:10 AM
Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.
Well said. Our experience is quite similar. I had a pretty decent Advent-Dynaco-Lenco-Shure system when I was 16 thirty one years ago. If I had believed there was none better, I would never have been exposed to equipment that has given me immense pleasure over many a year. I still enjoy the discovery of hearing even better.

rw

mtrycraft
04-05-2004, 09:49 PM
Every major federal income tax reduction from JFK's to Ronald Reagan's to W's has resulted in an increase in overall tax revenue. The IRS stats are easy to find on www.irs.gov.

rw


Ah, so for you that is a cause and effect? How gullible of you. Why not just cyclical natural events? The more income the more taxes are paid. Oh, yes, I forgot, you need a tax cut to make more income, right?

mtrycraft
04-05-2004, 10:00 PM
Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.

I am not discouraging anyone to try cables, only the problems associated with such trials. They should know those problems and how it relates to the outcome.

Same with what you stated. You may have a very fine system, that is not the point, especially your enjoyment of it.You don't remember a poster from the distant past, eyespy,

http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id3.html

had expensive cable because he enjoyd them, not because he could tell audible differences. He never claimd such.

But, some may get the idea that that is the answer for hearing differences. No, your system is for your enjoyment. My boombox is for my enjoyment :) And, e-stats is for his enjoyment. No harm meant :)

E-Stat
04-06-2004, 04:14 AM
Why not just cyclical natural events? Oh, yes, I forgot, you need a tax cut to make more income, right?
Because they were not cyclical. The answer to your second question is yes. Remember that 80% of all income tax is paid by the top 10% of filers. I have done some independent consulting before. Given the marginal tax rate and paying both sides of FICA, it adds up to 47%. At that rate, I have little incentive to work harder.

rw

Monstrous Mike
04-06-2004, 06:32 AM
You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.
If you have never soured on a decision about anything, whether audio, vehicular or even females of the opposite sex, then you are indeed a blessed man. And further, if you have never needed the advice and help of others then you are either stupid or perfect.



...if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers.
Talk about stretching! You make it sound like I am incapable of procuring an awesome sounding system and putting it in an acoustically pleasing setting. Please! I have always maintained that given identical amounts of money, I would take some from cabling and source components (i.e. in a typical audiophile budget) and transfer it to room acoustics with leftovers for upgrading speakers. Is this what you mean by objectivists' "advice".


I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine. QUOTE]
I don't doubt for a minute that your system doesn't sound awesome, probably a league or two above mine. But if you can quantify that some of that performance is due to the quality of your cabling, then you are a better scientist and engineer than I am.


[QUOTE=pctower]Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.
I don't think I'm the one who is cock-sure.

pctower
04-06-2004, 06:41 AM
If you have never soured on a decision about anything, whether audio, vehicular or even females of the opposite sex, then you are indeed a blessed man.


Talk about stretching!


I don't think I'm the one who is cock-sure.

I have been married only once, to my childhood sweetheart I met 40 years ago. When you've got the best, souring doesn't enter the picture.

I have soured on other things, but I certainly don't need the help of do-gooders to "rescue" me.

As for my "stretching", I have tried to be judicious and circumspect in posting my own opinions, and of course as a result I have been crowned the World's Greatest Fence-Sitter. Occasionally, I feel compelled to express my opinions. I try to state them in such a way that it is clear that it is just my opinion.

I can't erase the last 30 years of experience I've had as an avid audiophile and I can't erase the experience I have every time I sit down in my soundroom for serious listening. I'm well aware that you live in a world of measurements and that experience like mine is worthless as far as you're concerned. If my opinions bother you too much, consider the blocking option.

Justlisten2
04-06-2004, 06:59 AM
Hell yes. :confused: Most move on, except for those who enjoy the argument. ;)

ksing44
04-06-2004, 07:17 AM
I can't take it anymore, I just unsubscribed to this thread. I guess I burned out very quickly.

Monstrous Mike
04-06-2004, 07:51 AM
If my opinions bother you too much, consider the blocking option.
Are you kidding? Most of the time, you make my day.