Audio Note AN/K ?

[Vindbjerg]

I've had wonderfull results using a Naim cd3.5, an Audio Innovation 300 and a pair of Snell E/III in an aprox. 30 m2 large living room. Unfortunately I now need something that will fit in a much smaller room, more like 10-12 m2, I'd say. I've heard good things about the Snell K, but also some say it's a little dull. Then Audio Note AN/K spring to mind, but my knowledge on these speakers is limited. As a matter of fact, I have an actual offer at hand: one pair of black AN/K's, further specified "K", and bought in '98 or '99. Now I've seen people praise different editions of this speaker, but nowhere have I found info about this specific model. Could anyone help me sort out this mess of models and specs? And oh - the price it was offered at is 500 Euros, which equals... around 600 US$ I think. Would you say that's a fair price?

with best regards
Erik
Berlin

[RGA]

I've had wonderfull results using a Naim cd3.5, an Audio Innovation 300 and a pair of Snell E/III in an aprox. 30 m2 large living room. Unfortunately I now need something that will fit in a much smaller room, more like 10-12 m2, I'd say. I've heard good things about the Snell K, but also some say it's a little dull. Then Audio Note AN/K spring to mind, but my knowledge on these speakers is limited. As a matter of fact, I have an actual offer at hand: one pair of black AN/K's, further specified "K", and bought in '98 or '99. Now I've seen people praise different editions of this speaker, but nowhere have I found info about this specific model. Could anyone help me sort out this mess of models and specs? And oh - the price it was offered at is 500 Euros, which equals... around 600 US$ I think. Would you say that's a fair price?

with best regards
Erik
Berlin

bugger I had this whole thig typedout and my computer crashed. The Audio Notes are based off the original Snell designs not the subsequent models. Snell died after the original line and the company changed gears and cominig out with KII ---EII etc Peter was very displeased and stopped importing them...then set up Audio note with Sony's chief designer in the 70s. Kondo-San the main designer was displeased that Sony went for money over sound. Peter and Kondo broke apart There are TWO Audio Note companies - Kondo-san Audio Note Japan and Peter Qvortrup Audio Note UK and the rest of the world.

The K started at 1kus (level 1) and is upgradable to $6k level 5. Currently the AN K starts at level 3 the AN K Spe...some outlets may have older ones around ---all are upgradeable. Spe stands for the grade of silver wiring and is the only change I believe from the lower model. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

The only snippet from Hi-Fi Choice I could find were in May and September 1992:
"Voices have a rare realism and coherence; the message simply cuts through the medium." Hi-Fi Choice, May 1992.

"The sound is dynamically believable and more time coherent than most too, all of which makes a real contribution to breaking down the barriers between reproduction and reality." Hi-Fi Choice, September 1992.


Hardly enough to base anything on. But they are basically smaller sounding speakers of their bigger brothers...they use the same drivers crossovers etc. The K is a sealed acoustic suspension design rather than a port. But unlike what some say is impossible this sealed speakers is 90db sensitive a very easy load on amplifiers more-so than the De Capo even, plays loud has more bass than probably any other standmount its size, and dynamics. Can't be done they say - well they is wrong because here it sits. Technical marvel in a non technical looking box http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

This is from my discussions with Peter Q:
Audio Note speakers

You may find this even funnier, they are actually 1940's cabinet shapes, read L. L. Beranek's Loudspeakers and you will find the calculation for all our speakers, cabinet shape, driver position etc.
What you will not find is how we match the drivers to each other to maximise efficiency, dispersion and overall tonal balance.

Asto the drivers, they are both from Vifa in Denmark, the tweeter is a highly modified version of the TD19, no ferro fluid, no damping and a special ferrite magnet, the woofer is also a Vifa which is a derivative of the original standard driver.

What makes the K do what it does is three things,

1.) Cabinet shape
2.) The choice of complimentary sounding drivers, i. e. the drivers have the same sonic signature across the band, so when the sound of an instrument travels from bottom to top it retains its characteristics. This is an area most sadly neglected by speaker designers these days.
3.) We set each crossover up under dynamic conditions using an in-house test set-up.

AN-K/SPe which is a fully veneered speaker cabinet with birch plywood front and back and an MDF wrap.
There will be a serial no. and model description on the back below the speaker terminals.
These speaker cabinets were made in Denmark and were the best quality available until mid last year when our new cabinet factory in Austria came on stream.


I still dislike recommending speakers unheard. No matter what I think of them others may not have the same view. Many people like speakers I dislike - so it stands to reason that they may not like the Audio Note's. I'm not a fan of what I perceive to be false detail speakers passing as "accurate." If someone says my speaker has bags of detail I wonder what they mean because i don't go to live events and say wow check out the detail on those cymbals...unless they mean a paint job. Detail especially if applied to highs is distrotion - and Audio Note even wrote a paper about what I have felt for years in their on the road to audio hell essay published in several issues of positive feedback magazine and on the net if you do asearch.

If you liked the original K's you're probably going to like the Audio Note's. People supe up 70s roadsters why not speakers. The old cars didn't have the anti-pollution crap to slug the cars down - well Audio note speakers don't have cheap parts and cheap damping and cheap drivers to muddy the sound down.

And no speaker is perfect of course.

[92135011]

yeah you better check out the level on that K.
Back in 98/99, The Ks cheapest K would probably be 800 bux or something.
So if you paying 600...then that is definately too much!

I havent heard the speaker myself so I cannot give you too much a recommendation

[Vindbjerg]

Thanks a lot for that thorough answer. Now I have some more information: The seller says because it's a D-model, it's a level one. I'm a bit concerned whether that has any influence on the finish of the speaker. I heard they used vinyl wrap for a while with level 1, maybe all the time? I've sent him a picture I found on the internet, and he says they look just like those. http://web.axelero.hu/revoxr/pict/ank.jpg

Actually the seller works at the Dutch Audio Note import, but is a little low in information, it occurs. I think he's selling it for a customer.

Concerning
"AN-K/SPe which is a fully veneered speaker cabinet with birch plywood front and back and an MDF wrap"
- Will this choice of materials influence the sound, hence making to D/level 1 model sound inferior, even with a cable upgrade?

regards
Erik

[92135011]

I dont think the stuff you slap on is a matter.
However, I know the high quality Es have their cabinet built by hand, which ensures that the contact at the edges a big better than the other models. I dont know which level this starts from though. You better find out how much it costs to upgrade all the wiring.

By the way. the new ANs have a full vinyl wrap and no grill or holes for the grills. The one you see on the website is the old one.

I must say...ANs website really sux!
The information is outdated, and I cant find half their products!

Hey...Do I see a magazine under that speaker stand?
Thought people would use more stable things such as a textbook if they wanted to give the stand more height.

[RGA]

I really can't help you with K/D except to say that the AN E/D uses the same less expensive wood and MORE of the less expensive wood and look at the raves about that speaker. If the material was truly lousy then using MORE of it would create MORE box resonances and sound truly horrible. That is obviously NOT the case with the AN E, so I can't see why it would be with the K/D.

I still hate recommending ANY loudspeaker without the person hearing them themselves and I'll tell you why. Anyone on a forum like myself is basically another reviewer. If you look through ALL the reviews in stereophile etc you're going to find somehting they love but you roll your eyes and think "uggh those were not that good." There is also expecting the world. I rave on about their greatness how can they possibly live up to the expectation? It's like someone telling you how great X movie is and you fgo to see it and it's good but not as great as you thought.

When I went in I had never really even heard of the company other than that they made expensive tubes. SO expecting nothing they impressed me but it was when I got home and reflected back on the models I listened to that I realized they seemed to be the ones I had the least to to complain about - and that with a poor set-up to boot. Subsequent listening made me gravitate more to them than the others.

But I caution you because they simply do not sound like slim line design speakers AT ALL. If you love a lot of slim line designs these are going to sound a bit odd - you'll either buy into it or you won't. I was looking for 4 years to buy somethingto replace my Wharfeldales...the Wharfedales are 1990 and beaten in the mid band and other various ways by lots of standmounts but they had a breathy dynamic fat sound that simply fills a room and I didn't want to get a speaker that was punchy but thin. The K gave me punchy but still a big sound.

All i can suggest is read the reviews of the other AN speakers and basically the K's are going to sound pretty much identical except that there is LESS bass depth and the bass is punchier. In this they are the same as mmost brands. The B&W 600 series the 602S3 is the best in the series because it's bass while not as deep as the 603 is cleaner.

The difference with the Audio Note's is that the bigger ones don't become less clean because they don't add cheap wood or more drivers...they add more good wood and don't add drivers.

If there is any way to hear them first that is ALWAYS your best route. Recommendations from me or anyone should be viewed as recommendation to go listen to them - I think they're very valuable to have on a person's audition list because so many speakers of the slim line design variety pretty much sound the same. So we listen to a Paradigm Studio or a B&W 600 and we'll pick the one that has more dynamics or bass or a sweeter tweeter...what we didn't compare was the overal structure of the sound as a musical unit. Focussing on highs and lows? DO you do that when you listen to live music? No...I like a speaker that sounds like one cohesive unit. I chose to sacrifice the "wow factor" to get it - only because I have found the wow factor to only last for fleeting moment or for home theater. I like a speaker that gets the highs across without me thinking "check out that glorious detail"

And let's be honest most speakers today are pretty competant - there are very rarely truly lousy speakers especially in the 1k and up realm. It depends what you want and what you think you can live with over the long haul. This one I can...you may want an electrostat or something else.

[Vindbjerg]

Thanks Rga - I really appreciate your effort here.
The seller lives some 1000 km away, so it would be a lot of trouble auditioning. However I feel I could take the risk to buy them, provided the price is fair. Then I would have the opportunity to sell again without to much of loss, in case they don't fit my needs.

About my impression of what I THINK these speakers might be about, RGA kind of hit the right note when writing: "I like a speaker that sounds like one cohesive unit. I chose to sacrifice the "wow factor" to get it" That's exactly how I felt when using the Audio Innovation and Snell combo. I feel both components contributed somewhat equal to this effect. The music had a feeling of "body" to it, that I was very surprised and satisfied by. It wasn't impressive, merely "right". That, of course, was with the quite big Snell E's in a largish room, allowing low frequency responce. But somehow it was basicly different from other bassheavy speakers I've heard. I wondered for quite a while, and still do: "how can this single 8" woofer seem to produce more bass than models with two tenners?" The emphasis was on "seem", as I had the suspision I was somehow deceived (Maybe I should note that this suspision was inducted purely by my sence of physics, not my sense of the music). However much I thought about it, the bass, indeed the whole balance of the sound, was just right. Maybe this has something to do with the "large baffle" design? (The Snell E/III is just slightly narrower, deeper and a few inches taller than the AN/E, though)

Actually I have previously owned a pair of Quad 63's and really enjoyed their coherense. But they need more space than I could or can provide, and they ultimately lacked that warm room filling sound, that I experinced with the Snell's.

As to the price of the K's, I found a review that said they were 1000$ in 2001, I think. So could possibly, as mr. "92135011" suggested, have been around 800 $ in '98. Has anyone got a clue as to what would be a fair price? I.e. how much should I expect to be able to resell these speakers for, in case my "intuition" about them prove wrong?

[RGA]

Thanks Rga - I really appreciate your effort here.
The seller lives some 1000 km away, so it would be a lot of trouble auditioning. However I feel I could take the risk to buy them, provided the price is fair. Then I would have the opportunity to sell again without to much of loss, in case they don't fit my needs.

About my impression of what I THINK these speakers might be about, RGA kind of hit the right note when writing: "I like a speaker that sounds like one cohesive unit. I chose to sacrifice the "wow factor" to get it" That's exactly how I felt when using the Audio Innovation and Snell combo. I feel both components contributed somewhat equal to this effect. The music had a feeling of "body" to it, that I was very surprised and satisfied by. It wasn't impressive, merely "right". That, of course, was with the quite big Snell E's in a largish room, allowing low frequency responce. But somehow it was basicly different from other bassheavy speakers I've heard. I wondered for quite a while, and still do: "how can this single 8" woofer seem to produce more bass than models with two tenners?" The emphasis was on "seem", as I had the suspision I was somehow deceived (Maybe I should note that this suspision was inducted purely by my sence of physics, not my sense of the music). However much I thought about it, the bass, indeed the whole balance of the sound, was just right. Maybe this has something to do with the "large baffle" design? (The Snell E/III is just slightly narrower, deeper and a few inches taller than the AN/E, though)

Actually I have previously owned a pair of Quad 63's and really enjoyed their coherense. But they need more space than I could or can provide, and they ultimately lacked that warm room filling sound, that I experinced with the Snell's.

As to the price of the K's, I found a review that said they were 1000$ in 2001, I think. So could possibly, as mr. "92135011" suggested, have been around 800 $ in '98. Has anyone got a clue as to what would be a fair price? I.e. how much should I expect to be able to resell these speakers for, in case my "intuition" about them prove wrong?

The problem is Audio Note is not a big name company so how much you could sell them for is an unknown number. The way I would look at it is if this guy sell s YOU the speaker for $700.00 then it stands to reaso you too could sell it for close to that if not more. The basic AN sold for $999.00. I have never seen it sold for less than that. Plus it is upgradable. I believe the basic models used copper wiring instead of silver...and by the looks of the speaker it is using the foam surround. Foam is better than rubber but also requires re-foamig every 5-20 years(depending on where you live). The picture looks like they're in great shape.

The AN speakers use the walll and the box to generate the bass. Most speakers use the woofer to create ALL the bass and then try and damp the crap out of the box as if to take the box OUT of the equation. Audio Note deliberately uses the box to reinforce the sound. The AN E woofer rolls off around 55hz the box itself brings it to 17hz along with the corner reinforcement.

My concern about the $800.00US price is that I paid $1500.00 CDN for the AN K SPE brand new with full 5 year warranty. If you do a quick conversion that's something like $1100.00US. The K would have the better wood and all silver wiring and a choice of colour other than black. Cherry wood which I have is a darker redish wood and hey also had light beach. www.soundhounds.com in Victoria.BC has them.

Again it's a tough call I can't make. I can''t help because I have not heard the D version nor have i heard the Snell III. The only thing I can say is that all 3 (K, J and E) have been around since the 70s. The E is their top of the line and has the bulk of the reviews which makes sense. I went by what I heard not by reviews. It took a lot to get me to go with the K's because I owned B&W and I knew that B&W has loads of reviews as does Reference 3a's MM De Capo and the K? Basically has my review and a snippet from 1992 - with a few reviews on this site for the Snell K(which are not really the same but since the AN k is based off the Snell K it's as close as you can get).

The 805 or CDM 1NT are easier to sell, look better, have a bigger company backing them, have tons of reviews etc. But none of that matters if you're buying speakers to impress you over buying speakers to impress others or looking at re-sale. GOod speakers should not make you want to re-sell.

Having said that in your position you have to look at re-sale because you can't listen first.

However what you can do is listen to speakers like the B&W N805 and Paradigm Studio 40 etc and see if you like their type of sound. OR, listen to several headphones like the Sennheiser HD 600 --perhaps you'll have a similar ear to me or a very different one. Foir instance I don't like most speakers using metal tweeters - if you're like me you may gravitate to things I like otherwise not. Here's the chief review at enjoythemusic.com. Again a review of the J and the E not the K - but the K is basiclaly a punchier less bass weight version of these. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1203/audionoteloudspeakers.htm

[Vindbjerg]

Ok, tomorrow I'll try to find out how much the cable upgrade would cost.

Meanwhile I just found something that may be an interesting alternativ: A guy in Copenhagen has a pair of "AZ two" for sale. They retail for what equals 1000 $ and is offered at 500 $ used. The review seems quite good for this speaker, and it seems it might word in a small room, despite the fact, that it's a floorstanding speaker. Any thoughts?

[RGA]

Ok, tomorrow I'll try to find out how much the cable upgrade would cost.

Meanwhile I just found something that may be an interesting alternativ: A guy in Copenhagen has a pair of "AZ two" for sale. They retail for what equals 1000 $ and is offered at 500 $ used. The review seems quite good for this speaker, and it seems it might word in a small room, despite the fact, that it's a floorstanding speaker. Any thoughts?

I'm just as curious about them as you are...never heard them. Meant for corners good reviews, use the AN K drivers(supposedly upgrade versions), and are rated to 40hz. Though some reviews caution against real heavy bass at high levels...depends on what you listen to I suppose. They retail for $899.00US last I saw --- so practically half off and you don't need to spend money on a stand...That's why I would like to know about them.

They also have smaller standmounts around $400.00new...I know nothing about them - think they're new.

[Vindbjerg]

I've just had my reply from the Audio Note dealer in Copenhagen (Audio Consult). Everyone is raving about the quality service you get there, even if asking about second hand gear. Here's what he says:

"The new model is made of russian birch veneer and is more dynamic and calm (/tranquil / quiet ? I'm not sure about the exact translation).
The old model is made of MDF and chipboard.
You can upgrade to newest spec."

More specifically I found out that the old MDF / chipboard models consists of

AN/K-D (= "entry level")
AN/K-L and (= level 1)
AN/K-SPa (= level 2)

Whereas the upper levels, starting with AN/K-SPe at level 3, feature real veneer.

RGA: that means your speakers, and hence your reference of comparison, is level 3 - am I right? Or did you listen to the L version (or possibly the SPa?) ? It seems the upgrade to L spec. (better cable, though stille made of copper) is quite affordable.

It also means that the D version is NOT level 1, as the dutch seller told me. It should theoretically be on par with the new "Zero"-line. And the beforementioned upgrade path applies to these speakers as well.

RGA: How is your take on the design of the AZ range, constructionwise? Doesn't it get suspiciously close the the infamous "slimline" design, possibly lacking the "wide baffle" qualities? On the other hand the az is 93 dB against the K's 90 dB, which could possibly make it better at portraying microdynamics?

In strict terms of value, i.e. in reference to the retail price, the second hand az two's seems like the better deal. They're around 150 $ cheaper, though the retail price is almost as high as for the K's. Also I wouldn't need a stand for them, as RGA pointed out. But ofcourse that wasn't considdered in the retail price reference either - i.e. a new K-d with stands would retail for more than the az's (but whether it sounds better...?).

OK, I just asked Audioconsult what he would recommend for a small room, the K or the az. But I'd love some comments from the forum as well.

[92135011]

I dont think the L3 K is real wood veneer.
You dont get that until you jump to level 4. Of course, once you jump up from level 3 to 4, you are paying more than twice the price for real wood.

From what I understand, there is no difference except for a difference in look in the new Ks. I saw from some website that the update only affected the drives of the Es. If this is true, that would mean that there should not be any audible difference in the 2.

[RGA]

Hahaha...You got love the confusion of a level system. It makes sense for an All Audio Note system because yo would move up the line making sure you're close to matching levels.

The AN K Spe is Level 3 using Russian Birch with all interior silver wiring with silver 5 way binding postings. This is a line-up at this outlet in the U.S. http://www.jcaudio.com/product/AudioNote/speakers.html

Models differe depending which country you're in etc.

I can't speak to the floorstanding models other than to say the reviews in Positive feedback, soundstage etc were positive...trouble is I don't rely on reviews because many rave about stuff I don't like. The design of the AZ is some sort of quasi horn - they still appear to be wide baflle two ways(though not as wide as the AN E. The standmounts are still their top of the line. The AZ are for small medium rooms and my K is in my bedroom.

Generally I prefer standmounts over floorstanders because they are generally faster and tighter int he midband. The review of the J and E comparison by Steven Rochlin notes this. Bass Can be added later via a sub.

Peter has been working on a sub for 4 years now which will of course be powered by a SET amp.

I'd have to hear them both...the AZ two adds more bass - but does it lose something in the midband? I'm betting yes or it would be considered higher than then K, J or E. The real question is does it give up much? You'd have to listen and decide.

Peter no longer makes any K models below level 3 or Spe...So my feeling would be to dicker on the price of models below - the trouble is because they are all upgradeable and because they are all based of the same box design, buying the entry level model is the smartest move - because if you want to upgrade you can - and if you love them perhaps you won't think an upgrade is necessary. Personally I can't see how the SE is going to be $4k worth of improvement? Conversely, an owner of the K/D might not think making the jump to the Spe would be worth it. Without hearing them all it's tough to say.

Would you like your basic Rolls Royce or the same Rolls totally fully loaded...same general car performance wise with added luxuries.

[Vindbjerg]

I was sure the answer was going to be complicated, like depends on your preferences, and so on. But no - the answer from Audioconsult goes: "The K model, absolutely".

Now I just have to make up my mind about whether to buy the ones in Holland or wait and see what shows up...

[Vindbjerg]

I just wrote Audio Note to ask if I could buy cables from them directly, and got an answer from the Legend, mr. Quortrup himself! What are the chances of getting a reply from, say, Ivor Tiefenbrun if writing Linn a question? One in a million? Neat :cool:

[92135011]

Peter is pretty active when it comes to questions and so on.
He even has an account in AudioAsylum and answers questions that people ask. Although, I would guess that one of the reasons why people ask so many questions is because the website is made so badly -.-...no offense to Peter...but its time for him to update it with ALL his products.

[RGA]

Yeah I don't think Peter's site is a real strength...something you make from Trelix or Front Page. I know he had a reviewer help him set it up...he has a lot of products and he introduces new ones often...his site seems up to date on some screens and years out of date on others. Of course he's been selling the same basic speakers for 2 decades...I suppose the idea is to listen and decide for yourself if they're worth what they're charging. It's confidence in your sound.Still it would be nice to have more info on the AZ and the AX models. The latter might make good rears in a H/T set-up.

[RGA]

I just wrote Audio Note to ask if I could buy cables from them directly, and got an answer from the Legend, mr. Quortrup himself! What are the chances of getting a reply from, say, Ivor Tiefenbrun if writing Linn a question? One in a million? Neat :cool:

The thing is Peter is a wealthy man - and he was wealthy before he ever made this company. Speaking to Peter it is pretty obvious that Audio Note for him is a hobby. He makes cost no object products and moves down. It's still a business but as he points out often he doesn't advertise and could care less if anyone reviews his stuff because he doesn't want to own a BIG company...he claims he did and it wasn't any fun. He has over 35,000.00 LPs owns several of the competitors top designs just in case he can "FIX" them to make them sound good...LOL - arrogant may very well be or - he could just be right. He hates panel/planars and horns from what I can gather.

This company seems more like a hobby to Peter -- which is why he goes onto forums - he has a passion for this stuff. Same for Joseph Lau of Antique Sound Labs who frequents head-fi forum and audio-asylum.

Nothing against the conglomorates...but they're all about maximizing profit in a competitive home theater market looking for the lowest cost part that will function not because they want to but because they have 14 other speakers all making the same kinda sounding thing for less money. Audio Note's speakers are not tailored to those shoppers because they don't advertise in every issue of every magazine and place their product in shows like Friends - they don't build designs that sacrifice sound just to fit the IN style. It wasn't broke and it didn't need fixing.

I've been doing homework over the last two days and had two listening sessions running 11 and 9 consecutive hours - ZERO listening fatigue at moderate levels. That sure is better than my ears bleeding after track 4 of acoustic guitar work with the Paradigm Monitor 5.

[Vindbjerg]

The deal doesn't seem to work out, I'm afraid. The guy hasn't replied for about two weeks now. It wasn't that cheap anyway, so I think I'll just keep looking for another pair of K's. Meanwhile I've changed from my Kans to Tukans, which are more cd-friendly. Then my dad gets to use the tube amp till I find an Audio Note solution.
RGA: I think I know what you mean by slimline sound. I just went to a hifi shop today and listened to the new Naim entry level electronics. It was driving a pair of "Audio Physik" loudspeakers and it was exactly what I DON'T enjoy listening to. It sounded sooo fancy, with no "body" to the sound, no sensuality at all.

[92135011]

Hey, how much were they going to charge for the Spe upgrade??

[RGA]

The deal doesn't seem to work out, I'm afraid. The guy hasn't replied for about two weeks now. It wasn't that cheap anyway, so I think I'll just keep looking for another pair of K's. Meanwhile I've changed from my Kans to Tukans, which are not as cd-friendly. Then my dad gets to use the tube amp till I find an Audio Note solution.
RGA: I think I know what you mean by slimline sound. I just went to a hifi shop today and listened to the new Naim entry level electronics. It was driving a pair of "Audio Physik" loudspeakers and it was exactly what I DON'T enjoy listening to. It sounded sooo fancy, with no "body" to the sound, no sensuality at all.

They've been making the K since the early 90s maybe earlier so they should be around in one form or another.

The slim line bothers me more now than it use to because when everything is designed laike that you get programmed to like it or at elast think that's the sound. Yes it all sounds tight andpunchy but it also sounds horribly strained and THIN as if you sucked the sound through a strainer or you're listening to something through a long tube.

My analogy would be like looking through a telesscope - what you can see through it is VERY accurate compared to regular eyesight - but you lose ALL of the peripheral vision and the sense of reality. Or how about not seeing the forest for the trees. Many seem so concerned with imaging or soundstage or other microdynamics of sound they lost touch with big picture.

You could also try picking up the original Snell K, J or E. as the box designs are virtually Identical. You could probably get one of them cheap. BUT, you MUST get the original and NOT the KII or KIII etc. The original K sold for around $400.00 in the 70s which would be the equivelant of about $1500-$2000.00 today. You can still upgrade those to Audio Note drivers and parts etc. My only concern is the box quality after ~30 years.

Last year's AN K Spe is at soundhounds for $1500.00Cdn($1150US). Audio Note raised their pricing on the K Spe to $2250.00US. There new price list - http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

Probably a reason I like the 602s3 better than many in that price range is'tbecause it necessarily has better highs but because it can fill a room and not sound as nasal or listening through a funnel kind of sound. The speaker is more flawed of course but it has some grunt. I liked the B&W CM 2SE($1100.00CDN) more than the very slim and very small $1800.00 Totem Model One. THough the Totem was aand is a fine speaker - it simply cannot rock at all - and no offense to Totem but for $1800.00 I want it to be able to play a bass guitar properly at 90db.

[Jimmy C]

... I recently had a pair of Snell Js... they were not too good. Believe me, I wanted to like these, but the overall sound wasn't there. At $20 through a mutual friend, they were a good project (needed refoaming). Like the Bostons I had, the cabinets were in VERY good shape - that's what sold me... for the price, I'lll worry about sonics later. Another friend is now using them now in his new house and he's quite happy. Have you ever heard these? I wouldn't think you would be very impressed. But Hell... back in 1979 these were about $600 - a LOT of coin at that time. That's what I wanted when I bought my Boston A70s (and couldn't afford!)

BTW - foam is not inherently "better" than rubber... actually, it's worse - mechanical breakdown will set in sooner. Foam does, however, allow a speaker to be more sensitive.

[RGA]

Like I said not everyone is going to like the same speakers. Foam is better if the design requires it. Raising sensitivity is important for dynamic realism. I have never heard at any price a low sensitivity design that sounded good dynamically...case in point any and all electrostatic and planar designs are inferior and for my taste totally unacceptable loudspeakers. People swear by them and they are not fatiguing speakers so I respect them...just would not want them.

Audio Note is a different design from the originals in that they are designed to be placed in corners or near walls which was not the case for the Original Snells - however - the box design is the same and the drivers while not made any longer are still paper coated and foam surrounds, Except the AN K which is a rubber surround.

Foam does deteriorate faster but offers a 6-25 year life - it depends on the climate you live in. If you''re in a hot dry place perhaps they don't last as long.

The idea behind the Audio Note speakers is to use little to no damping - the ferrofluid cooled drivers they get from Vifa and SEAS have had all ferro-fluid cooling removed because the coolent damps the sound.

There are not a ton of reviews for the AN J either but several reviewers from Hi-fi Choice, Stereophile and the lead editor of enjoythemusic use Audio Note speakers as referenence products or in their own homes. I have not heard the AN J but I did hear the AN E/SEC which is again based of the original Snell E. It was the best system I have heard - not nearly the most expensive clocking in at a mere $50,000.00Cdn. I have heard systems with more bass but more bass and better bass is something else.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1203/audionoteloudspeakers.htm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475 Ahh this review explains the difference is a re-design of the rear ports from the original Snells.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=1577

I've decided to stick with the K because although the bass isn't as deep I like the depth and the punch The K isn't a port. I found the hi-fi choice review interesting because the J is meant for a corner as is the E - so one would have to experiment with that to be sure. Against a wall and not toed in would be a disaster area however(which may be what Hi-Fi Choice meant).
This reviewer added the E to his collection -- considering all the other speakers he is reviewing are at LEAST 3 times the price I think his review is more than interesting. http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm

At the end of the day it is really simple: If you are generally unsatisfied with the slim line approach of Paradigm, Energy, PSB etc or just think there is something artificial and unnatural about their idea of music as I do - and or find them bright lacking dynamics, bass and presence then you have to start to look at stuff that has a different design approach. Perfect? No! Better? To me it's not even remotely close.

[Jimmy C]

...along with the Merlins I was talking about in another thread, I'm very curious about the Audio Note sound. What I'm envisioning is an "everything better" version of my old Boston A70s... if that IS the case, they'll be mine ;^) I remember mentioning that there is a dealer (probably very small) on Long Island, out in Westhampton. My friend and I never got there, but we are sure to check him out. Along with ANs, he has Von Schweikert, Spendor and a few other brands I've never heard. Soon...

BTW - I asked before, but I guess you missed it (or I did)... whatever happened to the Boston A150s you saw? Did you hear them? Were they the original series, or latter? Mine were series II, and like the Snell Js I had, they didn't work for me.

Just wondering...

[RGA]

I was not too interested in the speakers - they were selling for $200.00Cdn and I thought I could turn them around for a profit. I already have two sets of front line speakers so I could not have kept them. They had nothing connected to them.

Sounds like you live in a good area and can audition a good array of stuff.

[Vindbjerg]

I reveived the Tukans last week. At first I was quite disapointed, they seemed less "direct" in some sense, the trebble being more withdrawn than the Kans and the bass being slower. I experimented with setup, but it didn't make the some come together, overall it just sounded conjested. On the other hand a lot of new information was apparent, that I hadn't heard with the Kans, more roominformation, and just generally more information about what was going on in the music, but it all seemed irrelevant to me, it all seemed too "HiFi" and conjested in some sense.

My Nait 2 had been turned off for a week and after one day the sound got a little better, but no transformation. At the same time I think I started to get used to the sound, though. I was looking for something that wasn't in the sound, some better defined contours, holographic sound and so on, but was now slowly giving it up, saying OK, maybe I don't really need those things. I also thought how RGA reported that the Audio Note speakers may sound kind of "wrong" in the beginning, is one was expecting a slimline sound.

After three days I was in love with the sound! I think the Nait2 must have really needed to warm up thoroughly, because now the bass was not bloomy at all. More importantly: everything came together in a magical way and was overall very dynamic. I can't describe all the aspects of the sound, the thing is simply that I feel it has ALL the desireable qualities that a hifi can possibly have. This is probably because it presents the sound so harmoniously that I relax much better and can much better concentrate on hearing the different qualities of the sound. I truely adminere how well matched Linn has made the different soundaspects of this speaker. I feel NO flaws at all, only, ofcourse, that the sound could be OVERALL better, which I realise I don't need, at least not at the moment.

I've had Tukans before, actually, but not with original stands and back then I didn't use Naim Naca 5, but instead Linn k20. The Naim cable is indeed much better for Naim amps, and probably the main reason they now sound much more dynamic.

I will still try to listen to Audio Note speakers, but just wanted to report on the discovery of another "non-slimlime-sound" speaker. Now looking for another hobby :p
Erik

[RGA]

Sounds to me like you're discovering what I have been complaining about with small speakers and small slim line speakers.

Standmounts have to give up some fullness to bigger speakers for the most part. The AN K does to the AN E just as the B&W N805 does to the N801 as every other brand.

BUT, you should not have it give up the sense of realism - I don't care how well a speaker digs out information or images - if the dynamics are not full and rich and bass thins out and the sound beams rather than permeates into the room - it's going to sound "techy" and anything and everything but sounding like real life music - though I'm sure they'll have an impeccable resume when it comes to the graph.

You listen to Yo You Ma's Cello on my speakers and you listen to it on a Paradigm or PSB or other like design and it will become almost instantly clear which sounds like a real cello and which sounds like a pale immitation. It's all in the decay - and to me it's very odd how truly bad some of the above do it - but since 90% of the speakers are like that people lose their bearigs on what it's supposed to sound like. The Cello has a box not just strings - and I want to hear the sound of the box in full glory not a series of strings. It's too hard to explain - if you can hear them one after another in the same room with the same gear you'll know what I'm talking about.

But to be fair there is a reason the Audio Notes cost more. Naim has always beat to a different drum as well so it is very likely they would not buy into the H/T speaker sound...as it appears Quad as well is trying to do as well.

Not that any of the ones I mentioned are bad from PSB and Paradigm and even the Linns - they all have a sound people like and a budget that is reasonable. The 100 reamins an excellent rocker and movie speaker and most people buying that brand probably are not using them for primary use of music. Audio Note and Quad among others have a similar philosophy on driver integration and IMO they're right. But again it's only my opinion because they keep selling Thiel - which leaves me totally cold and the press is great - well the North American press is great but then it's always great for all.

[benil]

like some of you, i am now a big audionote fan. i've heard the AN-E/SPs from a friend's "all-audionote" system and i haven't heard anything come close. it's simply very lnvolving! he has a digital front end using single-ended triode amplification (8watts) just to give you an idea. except for the speaker and interconnects i've built a very similar system but since i can't afford even entry-level stuff from audionote, all i got are used gear.

i've recently been offered a pair of AN-J standmounts and according to the owner these are level 2, so i suspect its an SPe model. it still bears the old audionote logo from the pics he sent me so i think its still the chipboard version that look similar to rochlin's pair in enjoythemusic...this one's rosewood though. :)

anyway, i browsed through a few AN speakers-related threads in other fora and i noticed that there are concerns about difficulty in maintaining these speakers. i live in a tropical country and it is very likely that the "3-year old" pairs being offered to me probably already needs re-coning. the seller sent me pictures but had the grills on so i couldn't really assess their condition.

here's my question: anyone among you has had experience re-coning the bass drivers of audionote/snell type speakers? how much would it cost? are there other things that need to be maintained in these speakers?

i recently purchased a used pair of silverline sonatina (avalon-clone) floorstanders which is also very SET-friendly and the AN-Es are still far superior, in my view so i'm considering selling it in exchange for the AN-Js. .

one thing i like about the sonatinas is that they seem to be easier to maintain as i suspect that they did not use any paper cones for the two-pairs of 6'' LPG bass drivers. do you think selling these for another used, more 'high-maintenance" speaker like the AN-J is a good idea?

finally, the guy selling it is offering it to me at less than half a brand new pair which is about the same price i got the sonatinas.

thanks!

[RGA]

I am looking at upgrading to the AN J SPe as well. I checked into this exact same issue. Peter Qvortrup told me the following: (I live in Nanaimo British Columbia - similar to New Zealand):

"Where you live you should expect 15 - 20 years of life, in hot and humid parts of the world it can be as little as 5 - 7 years, if left in direct sunlight even less.

The foam surround itself is cheap, about US$ 5.00, it takes about an hour to change, so I would say somewhere between $ 100.00 and $ 150.00, depending on what the technician charges an hour."



The whole bass driver would not need to be replaced - just the foam surround. Paper may sound less durable but that is just what the other manufacturers would like you to think. Even Kevlar has issues with life expectancy from what one dealer said - and my rubber surrounds on my wharfeldales are beginning to fray...nothing last forever. The AN drivers are pretty low excursion - ie; they barely move when being driven.

My attitude to this is that I would not mind paying for the upkeep of something with the performance of a Ferrari - it's certainly better than a Yugo. And there is no gaurantee that some more durable material in a lesser speaker will last longer. Audio note is up-front about using foam as opposed to ruber. For instance Peter only uses rubber on the K because he is forced to. Because the driver is different from the other speakers being an acoustic suspension he can only attain rubber for it - he would prefer foam.

The AN J SPe is level 3(uses Russian Birch Ply). It doesn't matter really because all their speakers are upgradable. Rochlin's review was of the AN J SPx which is currently sold as $7850.00 US.

Their new models go way up there http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

[benil]

Hi RGA!


I am looking at upgrading to the AN J SPe as well. I checked into this exact same issue. Peter Qvortrup told me the following: (I live in Nanaimo British Columbia - similar to New Zealand):

"Where you live you should expect 15 - 20 years of life, in hot and humid parts of the world it can be as little as 5 - 7 years, if left in direct sunlight even less.

The foam surround itself is cheap, about US$ 5.00, it takes about an hour to change, so I would say somewhere between $ 100.00 and $ 150.00, depending on what the technician charges an hour."

sounds reasonable to me :) by technician, does this mean an authorized technician? too bad our local AN distributor is a plane ride away :(


The whole bass driver would not need to be replaced - just the foam surround. Paper may sound less durable but that is just what the other manufacturers would like you to think. Even Kevlar has issues with life expectancy from what one dealer said - and my rubber surrounds on my wharfeldales are beginning to fray...nothing last forever. The AN drivers are pretty low excursion - ie; they barely move when being driven.

My attitude to this is that I would not mind paying for the upkeep of something with the performance of a Ferrari - it's certainly better than a Yugo. And there is no gaurantee that some more durable material in a lesser speaker will last longer. Audio note is up-front about using foam as opposed to ruber. For instance Peter only uses rubber on the K because he is forced to. Because the driver is different from the other speakers being an acoustic suspension he can only attain rubber for it - he would prefer foam.

great! btw, has peter Q mentioned anything on "preventive maintenance" of the drivers like applying "armour all" or any similar liquid?


The AN J SPe is level 3(uses Russian Birch Ply). It doesn't matter really because all their speakers are upgradable. Rochlin's review was of the AN J SPx which is currently sold as $7850.00 US.

Their new models go way up there http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

would you know what the level 2 model is for the AN-Js? what difference do you hear b/w a copper wired and the silver-wired AN-Js based on your listening tests? what do you think of the option of rewiring the internal cable from copper to silver?

is the $7,850 the one with the external crossover already? i read that even has a higher sensitivity rating. too bad i'm way out of that league :(

Thanks!

[RGA]

Benil

You have to remember that Audio Note is also a KIT maker. The speaker's warranty is 5 years - once out of wrranty I doubt it would matter who you had do it. It's not rocket science - though doing the upgrade - you would probably want AN or a dealer to have it done. For re-foaming anyone can do that for you. Peter was guessing that that is what it would cost - a place here would do it for about $50-$65.00 including the foam - you would want to do both speakers to match the wear I would presume.

Preventative maintenance? No he did not mention that - presumably if you can keep the room not ovelry hot and humid you would be better off - air conditioning perhaps?
No cleaning agents should be used on speakers to my knowledge.

I have not heard two models in a line side by side. How much difference there would be? I don't know. Frankly probably not a lot - if it's JUST the wiring. When you move up the line they use Alnico magnets, better caps, tighter tolerances, and an upgrade crossover - those i would think make a bigger difference. The Basic K with copper is only $300.00 less than the K/SPe. If I had bought new models I would probably go for the base speaker.

Peter said they were going to start the K models at level 3 which is the K/SPe - but they may have changed their mind.

The Bottom of the line J is called the "AN-J/LX - $2,999/pr US in your choice of our 10 standard veneers. A number of premium finishes, including a piano gloss finish available in 5 colors are somewhat more. The "LX" model uses Audio Note's best copper speaker cable internally, which is a copper analog of our very finest silver wire.

Then the "AN-J/SPe - $3,575/pr. (standard veneers) - uses the same drivers, cabinet and crossover components as the LX, but is wired with our mid-range silver speaker cable, which brings some additional refinement as well as authority in the bass and lower mids and more fine detail in the treble. Premium veneers, clear piano lacquer or piano gloss over a solid color are available at additional cost."

I would personally buy the bottom model - if you feel the need to upgrade later you can - if you don't then you saved ~$600.00US. I would also think that unless the rest of your cables are silver then upgrading to silver would be a waste. In other words unless you have an all Audio Note system paying extra for the silver is a waste. Remember Audio Note's level system is all about having a complete levelled Audio Note system. Every componant is at a similar level - so you would buy all level 3 componants - level 3 amp, speaker wires, cd player, dac turntable etc. Give or take one level difference.

This is presuming you think the cabling makes a difference at all. But, if a cable does make a difference, hypothetically, then it would make sense for all the cabling from source to speaker to be the same. Personally I would buy the base model - I simply am getting a deal on the SPe because that is all that is offerred here and the SE which I can't afford anyway.

The next models are as follows in US Funds:

AN-J/Spx - $7,850 in any of our 10 standard veneers. Premium veneers, clear piano lacquer or piano gloss over a solid color are somewhat more. Cabling is silver again, but two models up the range from the SPe. The crossover utilizes solid Audio Note silver inductors, Black Gate caps and Audio Note copper foil caps.

AN-J/SE Silver - $14,350 in any of our 18 veneers. Clear piano lacquer or piano gloss over a solid color are somewhat more. The driver voice coils are silver wired. Cabling is silver again, but absolute top of the range this time. The crossover utilizes solid Audio Note silver inductors, Black Gate caps and Audio Note silver foil caps.

AN-J/SEC Silver - $19,450 in any of our 18 veneers. Clear piano lacquer or piano gloss over a solid color are somewhat more. In addition to all the upgrades in the SE Silver, the bass/midrange drivers are ALNICO at this level."

Honestly I can't see the upgraded versions being a lot better than the base models - laws of diminishing returns and the mark-up is much higher because they would sell so few of them. Plus you're paying a premium for the finishes and expensive caps. But I would have to hear the basic E/D or E/XL versus the E SEC to be sure. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

[benil]

hi RGA,




I have not heard two models in a line side by side. How much difference there would be? I don't know. Frankly probably not a lot - if it's JUST the wiring. When you move up the line they use Alnico magnets, better caps, tighter tolerances, and an upgrade crossover - those i would think make a bigger difference. The Basic K with copper is only $300.00 less than the K/SPe. If I had bought new models I would probably go for the base speaker.

are the drivers from the kits matched as carefully as the built units? i read from the UK site that this makes a big difference.




I would personally buy the bottom model - if you feel the need to upgrade later you can - if you don't then you saved ~$600.00US. I would also think that unless the rest of your cables are silver then upgrading to silver would be a waste. In other words unless you have an all Audio Note system paying extra for the silver is a waste. Remember Audio Note's level system is all about having a complete levelled Audio Note system. Every componant is at a similar level - so you would buy all level 3 componants - level 3 amp, speaker wires, cd player, dac turntable etc. Give or take one level difference.


This is presuming you think the cabling makes a difference at all. But, if a cable does make a difference, hypothetically, then it would make sense for all the cabling from source to speaker to be the same. Personally I would buy the base model - I simply am getting a deal on the SPe because that is all that is offerred here and the SE which I can't afford anyway.

Honestly I can't see the upgraded versions being a lot better than the base models - laws of diminishing returns and the mark-up is much higher because they would sell so few of them. Plus you're paying a premium for the finishes and expensive caps. But I would have to hear the basic E/D or E/XL versus the E SEC to be sure. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

i was lucky enough to have purchased some used AN level 3 stuff like my speaker cables (SPx) and my amp (conqueror) at 1/3 their list price. the used preamp i got is only level 2 (m2), i think. anyway, i actually have 2 choices for my speaker upgrade. one is an AN-J/SPe (i think) which i've seen a picture of and another which the owner claims is an AN-E/SPx that i haven't seen.

here's a link to my 2-channel system:
benil's (http://www.geocities.com/uigiuig/strange_fruit2.html)

at first, i found the silver cables to be really expensive but i was convinced when we did an A/B comparison using various classical, jazz and pop titles. i actually considered using some of my cables to replace the internal wiring of my current speakers because the difference with just the external cables is very audible. grain, for one, is substantially reduced.

THANKS AGAIN!

[RGA]

Benil
I don't the think the kits are matched.

If the SPx is newer it is one of the higher models and that's the one to get. If it's an older one like Stephen Rochlin's (enjoythemusic.com) then it is still a higher model but back then the speakers were chipboard instead of Plywood. How important that is is up to you. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

Mr. 92135011 asked on the Audioasylum forum

"Is there any reason why the Audio Note speaker kit recommends pure birch ply with speakers rather than any other plywoods? Is there a particular advantage of having pure birch ply rather than plywood with first few layers birch then the rest of another wood? "

One reply was
"No internal voids and far better overall material quality.
It really is the only thing, other than solid hardwoods or Corian type materials, that should be used for quality speaker cabinets.
Good luck with them" http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/162407.html

Actually, if you want the best answer to these questions why not start a thread on Audioasylum and ask Peter Qvortrup directly - He frequents the place - as do other Audio Note folks like Jack Gribble and DR Cope. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/bbs.html

[92135011]

The kits are definately matched.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/157755.html

Actually I emailed Peter personally and he told me the the cabinet is best built from ALL baltic birch ply. That is, even the sides are birch rather than MDF used in most of their models. He said that from the sound point of view it was the best sounding. Of course, baltic birch ply is more expensive than normal birch ply. From Brian Smith of Audionotekits.com, he said that 2 5x5 pieces is enough to construct 2 cabinets. If in doubt, check his website

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/an_e.html

It has pictures of the AN/E being cut to the correct sizes. All this is done by a carpenter though rather than Brian. These pictures should give you an idea of what skill level you need to build such a kit. If in doubt, Brian also sells the precut pieces and sends them flat-packed. Still very heavy though.

Now regarding the baltic birch ply thing, another reply said that the density of the northern grown birch is better than that of its north american counterparts. Not sure if thats true or not though. Another advantage of baltic birch is that it maintains decent looks from the side even though its a plywood. Even without veneer, the cabinet looks good at the edges. Bad quality filler plywoods end up having holes of bad knots at the sides causing some really bad cosmetic issues

[RGA]

Good info on the kit - That is way out of my league - it would cost me the difference to buy all the equipment needed to build them LOL :)
Makes me wish I was the son of a carpenter rather than an accountant.

Yes Peter told me that about the matching and I forgot. It does save considerable money to be sure. The basic E is selling for $4k US

It's too bad you were not here about 5 months ago because Sounhounds had two AN E/D models for $2000.00Cdn. Whih is basically the same as the XL - but the wood wasn't quite as good.

This is likely another reason the speakers have a relatively high cost. Back in the 70s wood was cheaper - today speakers are just built from cheap crap and real quality wood is much more expensive. Try getting an Oak desk knew and you're in the poorhouse so you get some stuff from Walmart(don't get it wet or its dead).

I'm going to try going up to Victoria on Wednesday and I will try and compare the E, J and K and the new Paradigm Sigs if they're there.

Gotta go and see when the stupid busses run.

[92135011]

Well another option is to pay someone to do it for you.
I got connections with one guy who will cut out and assemble the birch ply for almost nothing. Birch ply itself costs bout 70-80 cdn for a 5x5 piece. The speaker requires 2, so Im guessing that including the bracing and that, he will charge me bout 150. Also got another friend who's old man specialises in wood finishing. I'm hoping he can do veneering for me - maybe a nice cherry or african rosewood or something else exotic. He also laquers, so possibly he can help me out with that too. Thats gonna look good. Very good. Now I'm just trying to see if it would be at all worth it to buy the high efficiency drivers rather than the regular ones.

[RGA]

Well another option is to pay someone to do it for you.
I got connections with one guy who will cut out and assemble the birch ply for almost nothing. Birch ply itself costs bout 70-80 cdn for a 5x5 piece. The speaker requires 2, so Im guessing that including the bracing and that, he will charge me bout 150. Also got another friend who's old man specialises in wood finishing. I'm hoping he can do veneering for me - maybe a nice cherry or african rosewood or something else exotic. He also laquers, so possibly he can help me out with that too. Thats gonna look good. Very good. Now I'm just trying to see if it would be at all worth it to buy the high efficiency drivers rather than the regular ones.

Well this sounds like a cool project for you. Maybe in a few years I would give somehting like this a go - move the J(If I like em and get em) to the rear and build tthree E's across the front - awesome home theater too - and one you have the specs and everything making a third one is no big deal.

I say get the best drivers you can afford and the best wiring. Does Audio Note supply the Sheep's Wool in the kit? They seemed rather anal that it had to be sheep's wool positioned just so and would take a kit builder a bit of trial and error - but since you built it you'd know which is kinda cool as well.

I'm jealous - sure beats plain old black - that Poplar Burl looks quite neat as well - maybe there is a way to get a cherry wood version of that - might be different. When and if you do decide to go that route post some pictures of em.

[92135011]

The wool wadding is included in the kits as I have seen at hificollective.
Actually, I've read that burls are by far the most difficult to use as veneer. Because of its unique pattern, its hard to match the pieces between the corners. If my buddy's dad can do veneering, I'll take a serious look at the different appearances. Problem is that exotic veneers cost a lot. A sheet of good veneer was over 100 cdn the last time i checked a wood website. And that wasnt even the most expensive of veneers. But for a hundred or two more, the appearance is worth it. I've always been a wood person. Love the look of natural wood and grain. Vinyl or plastics can never replace the intricate patterns of wood.

[benil]

Benil
If the SPx is newer it is one of the higher models and that's the one to get. If it's an older one like Stephen Rochlin's (enjoythemusic.com) then it is still a higher model but back then the speakers were chipboard instead of Plywood. How important that is is up to you. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

Mr. 92135011 asked on the Audioasylum forum

i think its an old AN-E/SPx which is being offered to me not an AN-J. the seller said the foam has already melted and he had only improvised to "make it sound like it did before the foam gave in". i might get a chance to see them next week. i'll try to take pictures and show them to you and let you judge if they are still worth anything


Actually, if you want the best answer to these questions why not start a thread on Audioasylum and ask Peter Qvortrup directly - He frequents the place - as do other Audio Note folks like Jack Gribble and DR Cope. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/bbs.html

am a bit shy to ask around in AA. i find some of the replies too frank and too rude. guys here seem to be more careful with their replies. fact is am not in the market for any brand new AN stuff but i'm serious about getting pre-owned gear.

btw, here's a pic of my pre-owned AN stuff and other gear:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QQAAAAgTpmx8kpuuDPa6wmCu7NO4yclpofF4Ndzp2L6SBKgND Rx!YXKyVrTB9hLfA0d7gMdRfEyuP12OCGyLWcT2ae!auXHSS3W Pi3TS2P4/rack.jpg?dc=4675474556100518355

cheers!

[92135011]

Dude...Make it if you can. Top notch stuff for a fraction the cost.
The new preamp kit is going to be released in a few months according to Brian Smith, and it will look very similar to the M3. Parts are fully upgradable to resemble the higher level preamps more and more. Kit1, although ugly, will soon accept higher quality OPT and also fully upgradable to sound like the upper level power amps. The architecture is already no feedback, directly heated, single ended triode. With better parts, it can easily equal the higher level manufactured products with lesser looks and lesser price. You can also get speaker kit3, high efficiency silver drivers with calibrated xovers and all the fixins. Then you can make a pretty high level speaker. Of course, you cant make the xovers have silver too because they dont sell them. You could change to a silver caps and that..but then you would lose the matched property. Anyways all in short, all kit items are also very high quality. Give them a try if you have the time and ability (the friends who do)

[RGA]

i think its an old AN-E/SPx which is being offered to me not an AN-J. the seller said the foam has already melted and he had only improvised to "make it sound like it did before the foam gave in". i might get a chance to see them next week. i'll try to take pictures and show them to you and let you judge if they are still worth anything

am a bit shy to ask around in AA. i find some of the replies too frank and too rude. guys here seem to be more careful with their replies. fact is am not in the market for any brand new AN stuff but i'm serious about getting pre-owned gear.

I would simply ask Peter in the thread title directly the low down on the E/SPx.

If the box is in good shape hten it might simply be a matter of replacing the drivers - which may not be all that expensive. They are from SEAS and ViFA so they won't be dirt cheap either - but overall could be well woth it. The main difference between the E and J from what I can tell is more bass in the E(but not a lot more based off of the measurements) and that the E is suited to a larger room while the J to small/medium rooms. Won't know for sure until I listen to the J and E together to see.

[RGA]

Dude...Make it if you can. Top notch stuff for a fraction the cost.
The new preamp kit is going to be released in a few months according to Brian Smith, and it will look very similar to the M3. Parts are fully upgradable to resemble the higher level preamps more and more. Kit1, although ugly, will soon accept higher quality OPT and also fully upgradable to sound like the upper level power amps. The architecture is already no feedback, directly heated, single ended triode. With better parts, it can easily equal the higher level manufactured products with lesser looks and lesser price. You can also get speaker kit3, high efficiency silver drivers with calibrated xovers and all the fixins. Then you can make a pretty high level speaker. Of course, you cant make the xovers have silver too because they dont sell them. You could change to a silver caps and that..but then you would lose the matched property. Anyways all in short, all kit items are also very high quality. Give them a try if you have the time and ability (the friends who do)

When I'm out there I'll ask the guys at soundhounds how much they would charge to build the kit for me - now there's a little wrinkle to add to the mix. They are a complete shop - they do tube modifications - doubt it would be hard for them to build a speaker since they also repair speakers. The preamp I would consider because a soldering iron is all I would likely need.

The AN E is simply too large for my room - or built for a bigger room. Plus in 2 years I'll be leaving the country to Japan and leaving my stereo here for 2 years possibly 3 to pay down my debt. When i come back and get settled and have money and space(ie; not an apartment) I can consider building my own gear.

In fact the only reason the J has any interest to me is because of the price/trade-up I am able to get.

[benil]

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/an_e.html

It has pictures of the AN/E being cut to the correct sizes. All this is done by a carpenter though rather than Brian. These pictures should give you an idea of what skill level you need to build such a kit. If in doubt, Brian also sells the precut pieces and sends them flat-packed. Still very heavy though.



hi 92135011,

how much do they sell the pre-cut pieces of the enclosure?
thanks!

[92135011]

Benil, baltic birch ply is not cheap in itself. I'm thinking that it would cost no less than 60 bux for a 5x5 piece. Canadian funds of course. Add in the taxes and that goes to 70 bux. Takes bout 2 5x5 according to brian so that makes that 140. Then you calculate all the carpentry charges and screwups, company overhead, so I'm thinking that it would cost them more than 300-400 for both speakers. Of course this is only a guess.
Then you would need them sent to you, which will cost a pretty penny since the wood will be pretty heavy unless you live in toronto.

RGA, I know soundhounds makes the kit1 amp ready to use, but they do not sell the preamps. That can only be ordered from Brian Smith. The picture you see on the website of the preamp kit looks a lot like the M2. Their new chassis will look a lot like the M3 according to Brian. He says that it will be used to accomodate more transformers and so on. He also sells upgrade packs for both the amps and preamps with DAC upgrades on the way. (btw, the DAC is being revamped to look like the higher level DACs to accomodate more transformers again) However, the upgrade packs seem to be more expensive than buying the parts on your own. Take caution.
If soundhounds can do it, tell them to use all pure birch ply rather than MDF sides. Peter said in an email that birch ply is better in the sound point of view (but more expensive). The plans for the speaker cabinet indicate to use MDF sides and ply or chipboard front and back.

[RGA]

I've had wonderfull results using a Naim cd3.5, an Audio Innovation 300 and a pair of Snell E/III in an aprox. 30 m2 large living room. Unfortunately I now need something that will fit in a much smaller room, more like 10-12 m2, I'd say. I've heard good things about the Snell K, but also some say it's a little dull. Then Audio Note AN/K spring to mind, but my knowledge on these speakers is limited. As a matter of fact, I have an actual offer at hand: one pair of black AN/K's, further specified "K", and bought in '98 or '99. Now I've seen people praise different editions of this speaker, but nowhere have I found info about this specific model. Could anyone help me sort out this mess of models and specs? And oh - the price it was offered at is 500 Euros, which equals... around 600 US$ I think. Would you say that's a fair price?

with best regards
Erik
Berlin

Be careful on the used prices here as well. Just because the new model goes for more you need to look at what the original model went for in its year. The basic AN/K/B back in 1996(according to my one and only issue of Hi-fi Choice) sold for 500 British Pounds new, the SP went for 700 - both were a bit different then than now as to wiring and crossovers. My old Arcam Delta 290 sold there then for 480GBP and was selling here for $1400.00Cdn ~$950US.

So buying a used K/B for 500.00 Euros would not be a very good deal unless these speakers are magically free from depreciation - and that is not likely. The thing that does help the re-sale though is by continually selling year in and year out the same speaker and increasing and increasing the price - people will look to the new model and see the price of the used model and think it's a bargoon.

This helps the seller a bit to off-set the lack of name recognition - if the name gets more household - you might even be able to make money on em. Interesting they would be selling it for 500 Euros - probably what he paid 10 years ago - of course money had more buying power then than now but still.

[benil]

Be careful on the used prices here as well. Just because the new model goes for more you need to look at what the original model went for in its year. The basic AN/K/B back in 1996(according to my one and only issue of Hi-fi Choice) sold for 500 British Pounds new, the SP went for 700 - both were a bit different then than now as to wiring and crossovers. My old Arcam Delta 290 sold there then for 480GBP and was selling here for $1400.00Cdn ~$950US.

So buying a used K/B for 500.00 Euros would not be a very good deal unless these speakers are magically free from depreciation - and that is not likely. The thing that does help the re-sale though is by continually selling year in and year out the same speaker and increasing and increasing the price - people will look to the new model and see the price of the used model and think it's a bargoon.

This helps the seller a bit to off-set the lack of name recognition - if the name gets more household - you might even be able to make money on em. Interesting they would be selling it for 500 Euros - probably what he paid 10 years ago - of course money had more buying power then than now but still.

interesting...will these "lower price-tag" old models be traceable by their serial numbers?
since i''m getting used stuff, i might end up not getting a bargain after all?

on the other hand, rochlin's scorecard for the lexus and an-j/SPx enjoythemusic review seems to imply that the older chipboard model even sounded better than the AN-E except for the "sub-bass" category. of course, that an-j may not be as old as the 500euro models.

is it also possible that audionote has already made a far bigger name and reputation now vs. 10 years ago allowing them to demand higher prices on essentially the same products?

cheers!

[RGA]

interesting...will these "lower price-tag" old models be traceable by their serial numbers?
since i''m getting used stuff, i might end up not getting a bargain after all?

on the other hand, rochlin's scorecard for the lexus and an-j/SPx enjoythemusic review seems to imply that the older chipboard model even sounded better than the AN-E except for the "sub-bass" category. of course, that an-j may not be as old as the 500euro models.

is it also possible that audionote has already made a far bigger name and reputation now vs. 10 years ago allowing them to demand higher prices on essentially the same products?

cheers!

My impression from the Hi-fi Choice edition is tht the lower levels all used copper - they used to sell AN D cables which were Rec'd in theissue for what that's worth. The J/B was 999 GBP circa 1996 then there was an SP(not listed in the issue) and likely Rochlin's SPx.

To be fair Audio Note had levels from Zero to Five. Hi-fi HCoice only listed the first 2 of each - and today's start in level 2-3 depending which dealer. The SPe is level 3. The K jumps from that to level 5 in the SE and stops. Presumably Silver Sec is level 6+

Basically the wood quality is better than Rocklin's model. His SPx and the new SPx are not the same - and you're right considering all accounts his older model wasn't outclassed at all. I'm of the opinion, and it means little since I've not compared 2 levels of a K or J etc that if the box and drivers are the same the differences will be relatively subtle - granted the crossover and cap improvements. Is the better grade of silver critical ? possibly but for that to make sense the entire chain would need to be silver and compared to a system with the entire chain in copper - mixing and matching cables would be impossible to test.

When I asked soundhounds about the AN E D versus the AN J SPe they immediately said the J was better - so maybe the crossover wiring and wood quality does matter if they're being honest.

I'd probably have to ask Q what all the differences are. I know the NEW models versus last years(mine) are now having their boxes built in a different country. Denmark or something - and have way more finishing options.

Basically they're all tweaked up hot-rodded version of a good platform - most of it can all be upgraded later.

Well I'm heading out Friday and we'll see if it's worth it. Rochlin's assessment of the bass is an interesting one - the NEW J speaker is rated by Audio Note at 25hz -6db which should be almost no different to the human ear to the E at 18hz -6db. But Hi-fi Choice measured the J at 20hz -3db which is better than the vast majority of subwoofers. And Hi-Fi Choice does measure at a cosniderable distance - so perhaps Q changed the port or something. Placement is critical as I have found with the K/SPe and my speaker should be easiest to place.

I also find it interesting that Peter Q says the speaker SHOULD be placed in corners yet Hi-Fi Choice and some others feel they should be free-standing - so that gives the impression they're actually easy-going with placement. It's odd because the K always sound timbrally correct no matter where they go but for imaging and ultimate bass depth corners vs free standing and distance from walls all play a bigger role - and have some trade-offs.

[92135011]

if you are going to test the E anyways, why not try out the new high efficiency woofer while you are at it. See if there is a difference between the high efficiency and normal efficiency in sound, seeing the crossovers are slightly different and drivers are different.

[benil]

here are pics of the AN-J/SPe pair being offered to me.

can't really tell if they're still any good from these...i'm nevertheless posting them.
i also asked the owner if he could send some pics with the grill off. i'll post them
just in case he still sends more.

thanks guys!

an-j1 (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RACfAi4Ug7mfQmUQVWpIidRY4U7K3xcqND!HKhc3EJlzvZc4K 0zqDv!lyeiEhA1Qc3FOBu9VdhO!yIt8HkgFs*22cFTM3FFpnhO BA23W3xA/arthur1.jpg?dc=4675474879854378442)


an-j2 (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RADpAi8Uv7mfQmUQVWpIiQ4NiKx4eyfnZmoVa*EyZiiSdaCyz X5Ay*aJZ5Bf*9!G*yeBaF0ObHgXCHtVNfb25qcNSMyuMYU7OHy WnbbEL1o/arthur2.jpg?dc=4675474879904513436)

[benil]

Benil, baltic birch ply is not cheap in itself. I'm thinking that it would cost no less than 60 bux for a 5x5 piece. Canadian funds of course. Add in the taxes and that goes to 70 bux. Takes bout 2 5x5 according to brian so that makes that 140. Then you calculate all the carpentry charges and screwups, company overhead, so I'm thinking that it would cost them more than 300-400 for both speakers. Of course this is only a guess.
Then you would need them sent to you, which will cost a pretty penny since the wood will be pretty heavy unless you live in toronto.

as RGA said, the built units are so much more expensive these days than they were 5 to 10 years back that it seems to make sense to get the kits instead. based on your estimates, however, it might be more rational to just source the materials of the cabinet/ enclosure locally. i don't think we have birch ply but should i go the DIY/custom-built route i'll probably experiment with inexpensive materials first since this will be my first project anyway. if i do decide to get the pre-owned units, i would at least be able to use them as 'guides' for my experiments. btw, labor for custom-building is fairly inexpensive out here and the local furniture industry has been gaining price-competitiveness the last 5 years...so i still probably can afford to make mistakes with the enclosure experiments and still end up spending less than 1/2 the cost of brand new, factory-built stuff :)

[RGA]

That is a bonus with Audio Note in that you know exactly what the speaker will cost. You can actually go an buy the drivers and wiring option and box material of your choice.

You can dictate a large portion of what you pay - or you can opt to have the Audio Note builders do it at a premium - but at least you know how much you're paying. Naturally they are going to make a profit either way but that is only fair - it is a business.

Labour is always the biggest cost - but it's not rocket science if you have the direction and the tools and all the parts to simply put it together. Audio Note's glueing process is a bit tricky to right from what i understand - but to a non-novice probably not too hard.

And as you say you can have people build the box cheap - especially if they're your friends. Plus you get to choose the quality of wood, quality of wiring, quality of drivers etc.

The advantage of all of this over any speaker company that builds everything in-house is that you have control of upgrades and you can always get parts.

If I own a B&W or a Paradigm Etc now - in ten years when the tweeter blows they could stick me with a $200.00 bill to replace a tweeter or in naby cases they don't have any rreplacement - "oh well sorry sir but we no longer use metal tweeters we use silmk and that won't work - so do please look at buying one of our brand new offerrings.

I'm in this boat with my Wharfedales - the company went under after i bought them and the name was bought by the verity group - I can't get a replacement for my drivers - oce dead they're dead. Now i can no doubt get something close - but not exactly the same.

I digress.

If you REALLY want to save money try and find some used original Snell models - and simply replace the drivers - ask Peter Q about the adjustment to the tuning port and you should get pretty much the same sound. Or better yet try and find the Snell AII - all Audio Note speakers amplifiers and everything else are designed off of that speaker which had a rear firing tweeter etc.

[corwin99]

Totally off topic: RGA, i noticed that you are in Nanaimo and I am in Nanaimo as well... was hoping to ask you where you buy and/or audition your gear? I can't find any good places locally... I tried to email you but your profile doesn't allow emailing... I was searching for "naniamo audio" on google and your posts came up :)

[RGA]

Totally off topic: RGA, i noticed that you are in Nanaimo and I am in Nanaimo as well... was hoping to ask you where you buy and/or audition your gear? I can't find any good places locally... I tried to email you but your profile doesn't allow emailing... I was searching for "naniamo audio" on google and your posts came up :)

I actually make the drive to Victoria - the place is called Soundhounds on Pandora Avenue. I have never been to a dealer as good as them. They made me two Capuccino's and gave me pretty damn nice cookies today - and Starbucks has nothing on those Capuccino's either. They're not open on Sunday or Monday though http://www.soundhounds.com/

[corwin99]

I actually make the drive to Victoria - the place is called Soundhounds on Pandora Avenue. I have never been to a dealer as good as them. They made me two Capuccino's and gave me pretty damn nice cookies today - and Starbucks has nothing on those Capuccino's either. They're not open on Sunday or Monday though http://www.soundhounds.com/

Ah.. i've heard a lot about Soundhounds and how they just let you hang out there even if look like a student and don't buy anything. How are the prices? Do they sell any used gear?

I'm definately thinking about making the trip out to Victoria some time but with the Gas prices its kinda expensive in my gas guzzlin' SUV. Thanks for the tip though.. i will probably want to check this place out.

[RGA]

Yes they have a pretty good used section and I was tempted...but no money.

They had a Magnepan speaker in so I had the chance to hear em - in the next few days I will post a review of the day spent there and my impressions. They had a used Bryston 2B LP power amp for $275 - an older one but still. They had about 12 different speakers from Energy to Tannoy and my AN K's now too. They had some McIntosh and Cal Labs gearin and the usual Sony ES, Denon, Yammie, NAD receivers. A Carver, Audio Note, Audible Illusions gear were all present on the used shelf.

Affordable depends on the term. Their entry level is Denon - then NAD/Rotel then Antique Sound Labs/Audio Refinement and then it goes way up. And hearing the way up it's hard to go back.

[corwin99]

Damn.. $275 for a Bryston 2B LP? I woulda snapped that up on the spot!

I'd really like to go down there sometime, sounds like they have some killer gear. I need to schedule a trip down to Vic since we need to go visit my girlfriend's aunt and uncle again sometime.

On a side note A&B Sound up here is starting to carry some nice gear too.. the Parasound Halos and Totem speakers along with possibly Roksan as well... they were demoing the Caspians. Too bad A&B sound is so drastically overpriced and requires haggling to get anything reasonable.

Which reminds me.. do you need to haggle at Soundhounds or do they start you off pretty good? I mean do they inflate prices so they can have sales or are they a pretty firm priced fair priced kind of place?

BTW, thanks for all this great info i really appreciate it.

[RGA]

Well - their prices on used gear is pretty tight. Then again $275Cdn for a 2b is pretty good. Probably get htem down to $250.00. But it was a very old 2B may actually be out of warranty - but even still.

My Sugden was ~2k from 1992-1997 I got it there for $425.00Cdn down from $450.00. They don't move much on the used gear but they don't price it beyond belief.

The Audio Note spekaers they are pretty firm on as well - but the K/Spe sells in the states for $2250US while at soundhounds they carry the same speaker but last years model for $1500.00Cdn. Understanable that they are not haggling on them much.

They had some flagship Sony ES receivers going for $200.00Cdn which proibably sold for $2000.00 4-5 years ago - but receivers are pretty worthless used especially if they're slightly out of date features wise.

They also had a sub $300.00Carver amp and a lot of speakers - like the Maggies some Tannoys and now the K's I traded in.

[corwin99]

Thanks for the info.. The first free weekend i got i will be down there! I needs me a new tube preamp, a SS amp and some speakers.

[kordon]

Like I said not everyone is going to like the same speakers. Foam is better if the design requires it. Raising sensitivity is important for dynamic realism. I have never heard at any price a low sensitivity design that sounded good dynamically...case in point any and all electrostatic and planar designs are inferior and for my taste totally unacceptable loudspeakers. People swear by them and they are not fatiguing speakers so I respect them...just would not want them.

Audio Note is a different design from the originals in that they are designed to be placed in corners or near walls which was not the case for the Original Snells - however - the box design is the same and the drivers while not made any longer are still paper coated and foam surrounds, Except the AN K which is a rubber surround.

Foam does deteriorate faster but offers a 6-25 year life - it depends on the climate you live in. If you''re in a hot dry place perhaps they don't last as long.

The idea behind the Audio Note speakers is to use little to no damping - the ferrofluid cooled drivers they get from Vifa and SEAS have had all ferro-fluid cooling removed because the coolent damps the sound.

There are not a ton of reviews for the AN J either but several reviewers from Hi-fi Choice, Stereophile and the lead editor of enjoythemusic use Audio Note speakers as referenence products or in their own homes. I have not heard the AN J but I did hear the AN E/SEC which is again based of the original Snell E. It was the best system I have heard - not nearly the most expensive clocking in at a mere $50,000.00Cdn. I have heard systems with more bass but more bass and better bass is something else.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1203/audionoteloudspeakers.htm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475 Ahh this review explains the difference is a re-design of the rear ports from the original Snells.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=1577

I've decided to stick with the K because although the bass isn't as deep I like the depth and the punch The K isn't a port. I found the hi-fi choice review interesting because the J is meant for a corner as is the E - so one would have to experiment with that to be sure. Against a wall and not toed in would be a disaster area however(which may be what Hi-Fi Choice meant).
This reviewer added the E to his collection -- considering all the other speakers he is reviewing are at LEAST 3 times the price I think his review is more than interesting. http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm

At the end of the day it is really simple: If you are generally unsatisfied with the slim line approach of Paradigm, Energy, PSB etc or just think there is something artificial and unnatural about their idea of music as I do - and or find them bright lacking dynamics, bass and presence then you have to start to look at stuff that has a different design approach. Perfect? No! Better? To me it's not even remotely close.

Can Audio Note be bought in the US?

[RGA]

Yes there are many dealers in the United States - one of the biggest high end dealers in the U.S. is also the Audio Note distributor. They are in Denver Colorado called http://www.audiofederation.com/

This is the U.S. distributor page http://www.audiofederation.com/distributorship/audionote/dealers/index.htm

[audio amateur]

Yes there are many dealers in the United States - one of the biggest high end dealers in the U.S. is also the Audio Note distributor. They are in Denver Colorado called http://www.audiofederation.com/

This is the U.S. distributor page http://www.audiofederation.com/distributorship/audionote/dealers/index.htm
I know where i'm going when Ill be in the US this easter:ihih: Hopefully I'll fnd out what all the fuss is about:)

[RGA]

Actually I am not sure where in Colorado - I wrote Denver but it might be Boulder??

If you're on the west coast you're not too far from Canada - British Columbia is about 2.5 hours drive north of Seattle - I would recommend a ferry ride from Seattle to Victoria and you could go to Soundhounds - Does not hurt that Vancouver Island is pretty spectacular.

[audio amateur]

Actually I am not sure where in Colorado - I wrote Denver but it might be Boulder??

If you're on the west coast you're not too far from Canada - British Columbia is about 2.5 hours drive north of Seattle - I would recommend a ferry ride from Seattle to Victoria and you could go to Soundhounds - Does not hurt that Vancouver Island is pretty spectacular.
Mate, I'll be in Boulder AND Denver, so no worries;)
Thanks for the link.